The Dirty Tricks Brigade Tries to Spoil a Party

Gentleman this is some thing which all of you must read...........

Junta versus Janata by Shekhar Gupta, The Indian Express
Published on January 21, 2008

The Indian politician bumbles, the Pakistani general strides purposefully in his natty suits. Guess who keeps his country stable. Pakistanis surely coin more colourful political slogan than us. They are also less subtle. So, the next time you see visuals of a PPP protest rally on your TV screens following Benazir¡¦s assassination, strain your ears a bit to catch a most telling slogan: Amreeka ne kutta paala, vardi waala, vardi waala. It would lose much flavour in transliteration, but the meaning would not be lost on even a non-Hindi speaker. Now when was the last time you had the army called a dog, and that too an American poodle, on Pakistan¡¦s streets? And this is a Pakistan under an almighty (lately, former) general who has the power to declare and suspend emergency in televised speeches, the power to make 36 (or thereabouts) amendments in his ¡§constitution¡¨ at a press conference, and whose ability to take the biggest decisions on the spot is the envy, often, of the Indian politician, and has been a cause for admiration among India¡¦s chattering classes.
How many times, since he came on his first visit for the Agra summit, have we heard fellow Indians, including serious, knowledgeable people, talk of him with a sense of awe? See, how confident he looks, how well he speaks, the swagger, so impressive, knows his mind, is so fit and energetic, so much in control, so macho, can-do and so on. The sub-text was, view this is total contrast with our own political class: overweight, badly dressed, clumsy, evasive in their answers, indecisive, inarticulate and, horror of horrors, not even able to speak any English.

And then came Shaukat Aziz, on secondment from Citibank. So smart, articulate, in his smartly cut suits, blah, blah and blah. And what kind of people did we have holding the same job in India? Gowda, who slept in Parliament. Vajpayee, who never seems to answer any question. Gujral who only uttered diplomatic platitudes that meant nothing. And Narasimha Rao, who mostly pretended he had not even heard the question.

Now let me tell you a few stories. Not necessarily connected either by timing or context, but yielding an interesting conclusion, nevertheless.

¡E One of the great untold stories of the Agra summit is how challenging it was for both Vajpayee and Musharraf to deal with each other. One thought he had the answer even before a question had been asked. The other would think for ever, and often tire out his interlocutor. Apparently at one of the mid-day review sessions Musharraf shared his exasperation with his aides. He said something like, I know you guys told me he takes time responding to anything, but how do I deal with somebody who takes so long and then says nothing? A bit like John McEnroe tossing his racket in exasperation while playing Ramesh Krishnan and screaming: how do I play this guy? He serves at five miles per hour!

One of his aides tried to suggest that Vajpayee takes so long because he is processing Musharraf¡¦s question in his wise, old head. Musharraf was still irritated and somebody senior in his inner council said, with humour laced with disdain: to unka processor Pentium nahin, 286 hoga (then his processor must be a 286, not a Pentium).

¡E Now listen to the story from the other end. What exasperated Vajpayee most of all was Musharraf¡¦s cocky ¡§decisiveness¡¨. ¡§You are the prime minister, I am the president, if we agree on something, let¡¦s sign,¡¨ he would say, while at the same time making changes on the draft of a likely agreement and asking Vajpayee to okay it. He simply wouldn¡¦t buy Vajpayee¡¦s argument that he had a cabinet to go back to. ¡§Par aap prime minister hain. Aap faisla keejiye (but you are the prime minister, you decide),¡¨ Musharraf would say. So when Vajpayee briefed his aides and fellow members of the Cabinet Committee on Security (who, barring George Fernandes, were in Agra), he said about his counterpart pretty much the opposite of what he said of him: ¡§He is in such a hurry. Kuchch sochne ko taiyyar nahin hain. Sub kuch faisala abhi chahte hain, kaise samjhaoon bhai.¡¨ Or words to that effect.

¡E In the main lounge of the Congress Centre at Davos, Switzerland, where all kinds from heads of state to global corporate leaders to rock stars to ordinary journalists congregate and rub shoulders during the World Economic Forum January meeting, I found my old friend, Pakistani journalist, part-time politician, now a full-time exile, Boston University professor and also an Indian Express columnist, Husain Haqqani. As we exchanged gossip, Shaukat Aziz walked past, accompanied by a couple of minders, perfectly cut suit, pompous, smug smile and all. Just that morning he had lectured many of us senior editors over breakfast, laying down the law for India: nothing would move, the gas pipeline, even the permission to Indian private airlines to fly to Pakistan unless the ¡§core¡¨ issue was addressed. Again there was some admiration for his confidence and clarity even among the Indian contingent as he was ¡§so unlike our bumbling politicians¡¨.

Haqqani¡¦s eyes were now lit up with mischief. He pointed his finger directly at Aziz and said: ¡§You know what they say, Davos is the Disneyland of the mind. If that be so, there goes its Mickey Mouse.¡¨

How have the relative fortunes of the two competing kinds of leaderships and nations under their charge evolved over these seven years? Musharraf now looks bumbling and unconvincing, an international joke, a pitiable, forlorn figure, hated by his countrymen, distrusted by the world and mentioned dismissively even by Barack Obama. Shaukat Aziz has disappeared from the scene, even losing out to an ordinary mortal ¡X coincidentally from India ¡X for the top job in his alma mater, Citi. Their country is a mess, their own army, for the first time, is seeing its credibility, power, its pre-eminent position in Pakistan¡¦s society and power structure questioned. Its political class is decimated, its institutions fatally wounded. How do people as proud as the Pakistanis feel when their dictator offers to salvage his credibility by summoning the Scotland Yard to investigate the assassination of their most prominent political leader? Nobody believes their election commission¡¦s intentions, motives or judgment in postponing their election.

Vajpayee, on the other hand, sits at home, having lost power in an election, not in the pink of health, but satisfied at the way his country is moving. His successor, from the opposite side of the political fence, even comes to wish him on his birthday. His country has meanwhile had many more state elections and another general election within a year or so will give his successors in his own party another crack at power. Now, think, who finally won. The indecisive, inarticulate, ineffective slob who did not seem to have an answer to anything, or the macho, confident, smart, decisive, modern smartie who seemed to have an answer to everything?

There are many interesting, and important conclusions to be drawn from this complex argument. But the most significant is this: a modern nation needs democracy and so it needs its politicians, however clumsy, corrupt, effete and power-crazed they may be. Because a military dictator can also be all of these things. The difference is, the political leader draws his power from the democratic process, so he has a stake in preserving that system, howsoever cynical he may be. The general draws his power by throttling the democratic system and its institutions and you can see the results of that in Pakistan. So, in a democracy, howsoever powerful a Lalu or Mayawati, they have to shut up and listen when the Supreme Court speaks. The election commission can publicly upbraid both Sonia Gandhi and Narendra Modi. We, the media, can question and curse who we want. It happens because the political class has the biggest stake in the democratic process, howsoever much it may wish to manipulate it. In contrast, a military dictator owes his power to the absence of institutions, of checks and balances. That is exactly what Musharraf has done to his judiciary, the election commission and even the media. That is why he has to summon the Scotland Yard to investigate Benazir¡¦s assassination

Re: # 251 hamidm

Father Raymond eh? Now it makes sense why you are so repulsed by anything religious. Look what happened in the past was a painful nightmare; but every nightmare is always follwed by a bright sunny day. Yes it is tru that that nightmare tore you apart but life is nothing but second chances. Time heals all kinds of wounds no matter how deep and how wide. Just forgive and forget for something that you had no control over. You were just a kid. It was not your fault.

Re: # 249

fuzair mian,

... sometimes you have to stretch a point to make a point :)

... by the way i was at st mary's when the rev fr byrne was the principal and ms may flannagan still had nice legs (she died in 2006 - i think tess is still alive) .....we had only eleven boys in our senior cambridge class ....... i was at st patrick's when fr raymond was the principal ....... that was a long long time ago ......... sigh !

Re: # 234 Posted by hamidm2 on January 19, 2008 4:54:54 am

[... personally i support the division of iraq with permanent us bases in kurdistan as in korea ....]

Did you see the latest edition of The Atlantic Monthly? Do you agree with redrawing of the middle-east, Iran and Pakistan? Personally, I think that in the next 20 years or so, we might see a major reconfiguration of the middle-east, which I think will be good for the world.

Sorry, was a post on the forced marriage annulment in Saudi Arabia but for some reason the post got cut.

Each time I think Hamidm has gone too far in criticizing Islam, I read some crap like this (

Thanks to the 5th Arjun for sucking chowk beta's ass, or whatever it was that he did.

Re: # 244

Massaddi Mian:

"...the entire Third World alike..."

Are you still living in the Third World. I thought the Second World was gone long before you emerged from your diapers.

#243 Posted by anil on January 20, 2008 10:54:00 am


#242 Posted by rf786 on January 20, 2008 9:17:54 am

It's not "my" article neither did I read it before I posted it..I was just posting it as a hotlink for SR because chowk beta sucks ass.

However, I agree with what most of what you say.

There is no such thing as fair and free and open competition. Global institutions financial as well as manufacturing are dominated by Western corporations who have monopoly power and are not fools to let others kill them knowingly. Keep dreaming, India and China are getting deeper into the gutter, their people are still dirt poor and until they realize that glitter isn't everything and recognize their true enemies, who are the enemies of humanity and the entire Third World alike, i.e. the US elite and their minions around the globe, they will all remain in the gutter.

Re: # 241

Arjun:

I have said it here many times. The world's market based economy is entering a new era. With the arrival of Brazil, Russia, India and China, colonial model of controlling energy and resources is gone. Market will force competition, and as a result there will be better distribution of profits and equuitable distribution of wealth. Western economies from colonial days, controlled energy and other mineral resources. Now, as Hamidm said RFQs have requirement of 60+% Indian contents.

This new model of developmental economy will be based on higher efficiency and productivity, as competition will be open. Then again, Olympics is open competition too, or is it really about who can find a non-detectable performance enhancing drug. This is the new mantra in developmental economy as well. Who can, is who can win. Cocentrate on Today's India, and less on Pakistan.

Re: # 241

arjun_5

FT article has highlighted some very disturbing trends but fails to identify the root cause of increased state ownership.

Growth in China, India and other third world countries has fueled incredible demand for commodities which has led to higher prices and increased revenues for countries rich in resources. Main beneficiaries of this trend was the third world countries that had very little exposure to free markets thus the increase of state or sovereign wealth funds. Developed nations (G-7) continue to be the dominant economies but did not participate in this commodity led rally thus the knee jerk reaction to defend their economies and markets by introducing added regulations.

These are uncertain times with US economy headed into a recession matters could get worse before they are corrected.

FT article.

Re: # 237 bulleya wrote ["... bank ceo's who are now begging arabs for capital ..."]

While your statement has a nice ring to it, I hope you meant it just a rhetorical quip and didn't seriously mean it. It's not just Arab capital, but other Asians' capital also. The issue is investment capital of Foreign Sovereign Funds.

Check out the following 2 items:

1) This is the testimony of Patrick Mulloy before the Senate Committee of Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs :

http://banking.senate.gov/_files/111407_Mulloy.pdf


2) A Financial Times article by Jeffrey Garten, a professor of international trade and finance at the Yale School of Management:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f0f2a32e-c2d6-11dc-b617-0000779fd2ac.html

...SR

(It's a god-damned shame that we cannot imbed font colors or active URL's in the message any more. So you'll have to copy and paste these URLs.)

#235 Posted by bulleya on January 19, 2008 6:45:12 am


india had no success in kashmir with 700,000 soldiers


umm..india controls indian kashmir the last time i checked..and despite your own predictions that it would "banega" pakistan in 5 years after 9/11, that looks quite unlikely except to the most deluded(i.e. pakis)...

OTOH, the paki army's efforts at kashmir banega pakistan have been a miserable failure and only ended up with the paki army ruling pureland and bombing it's own citizens...

#237 Posted by bulleya on January 19, 2008 8:02:50 am


.....usa is already firing its bank ceo's who are now begging arabs for capital.


The US is "begging" arabs for capital? Wouldn't that give arabs great power over US policy...gee..it could even mean they could use their power to give the palis a state and give kashmir to pureland....

I'm thinking of wearing a t-shirt with an arab flag the next time I am in new york...which flag do you think I should use?

hamidm2 mian #: ".... would you have left the nazis alone in the hope that they would become civilized on their own ?...... "

hmm....nazis initiated into ww ii in 1939....us entered in on 7th dec, 1941.....if my history is correct, it was after the japanese attacked pearl harbor...

so for more than two years, the nazis were left alone, "in the hope that they would become civilized on their own"......as were the japanese.......and the italians...

the largest conflict of present day, if my history is correct, is in congo....the death toll is in millions......i haven't seen the us govt. having too many problems about it......when is it planning to invade congo to civilize it?.......

......the usa, at least in its foreign policy, is on the same road as the nazis......the number of people it has killed is reaching nazi levels.....which is my point......and which is why it is our responsibility, based on the rules described by you, to stop killings by the usa.......i am sure nazis had their own version of rush limbaugh and hamidm2, who used the logic provided by you...

stopping the obl's etc. is not too hard.....they will fall apart, the moment some of these political conflicts are solved, and the us stops backing the dictators......

as i keep saying, americans need to concentrate on enjoying their ipods, and letting everyone else live......specially since, the us has over-extended itself, and may start running out of ipods, if the usa does not limit its shenanigans.....

.....usa is already firing its bank ceo's who are now begging arabs for capital...........

Re: # 235

romair,

.... would you have left the nazis alone in the hope that they would become civilized on their own ?...... we cannot afford to leave totalitarian ideologies like nazism, communism and islam alone in this day of atom bums and flying planes ..... and who says you cannot civilize people - germans, japanese and koreans are good world citizens ......... i know muslims are a harder nut to crack, but they too can be whipped into shape or completely destroyed - take your pick .......

hamidm2 mian #:"..... i still support the iraq war - i just don't like the half hearted approach ......"

...this is alright, as you are already a consultant in the auto industry, and hence cannot do any damage, beyond chowk.....however, farid and john can do a lot of damage.....

there was no half-hearted approach.....$80 billion/year is not a half-hearted approach!.......it is a hell of a lot.....if you remember, i had always said that no war against a population is ever successful.....usa could have pumped in 400,000 soldiers with $160 billion/year, it would have been the same......

india had no success in kashmir with 700,000 soldiers.....soviets had no success in afghanistan, despite having a common border, even after killing 1 million people......

"personally i support the division of iraq with permanent us bases in kurdistan as in korea .... like israel, let's make kurdistan a beacon of light in that dark desert of ignorance ......."

hmm...israel a beacon of light......if you (or i) are ever blown up, along with the city of new york, someday, i think the unravelling of the whole event will lead back to israel/palestine conflict.....i certainly have no interest in getting blown up......

let israel become a beacon of light on its own.......

as for kurdistan, the day it declares independence, is the day turkey will invade fully.......once again, i had mentioned that turkey would be in a state of war, with iraq, after this invasion.......

so, you have palestinians and israelis fighting......shias, sunnis and kurds fighting in iraq.....afghans and pakistanis fighting in waziristan........now you want to start a turk/kurd war in kurdistan.......

how about a better idea......let the countries become civilized on their own.....why don't the americans simply enjoy their ipods and iphones and the new air notebook, within their own borders......they can get cheap oil from arabs and have fun......live and let live....

Re: # 224

romair mian,

..... i still support the iraq war - i just don't like the half hearted approach ...... personally i support the division of iraq with permanent us bases in kurdistan as in korea .... like israel, let's make kurdistan a beacon of light in that dark desert of ignorance ....... it is america's duty to spread civilization .......

Writter sahiba
In my fair pov, PPP should nominate some capable person like Aitza hussan for the PM ship and also for chairmanship, if, PPP reaaly wishes to revive and survive....b/c zardari as usual doing his special dirty tricks as well to undermine BB's excellent and brave efforts to regain democracy in pakistan and to dismantle army's dictatorship.

Zardari is the most hatred person by majority of Pakistanis and who is Bilawal btw? This is not dynasty....Bilawal ot to prove his worth as a politician in future...Zardari already got NO charisma and No character at all, his character is Mr. 10% and he is the reason for the down fall of BB and everybody knows that....I think Zardari should be thrown out of PPP.......why majority PPP workers seem helpless now infront of this crook corrupt and incompetent zardari? the badmash...

Also, why not Fatima Bhutto? the girl has charisma and character as well, she has already proven her worth by expressing her thoughts multiple times via her columns, she got the real political genes and a polished personality......

#230 Posted by ahmedmadani on January 18, 2008 4:37:46 pm


Please read many comments by YLH in this matters.


I'll get around to it..I'm still digesting his "orascom" is a paki company post...

Re: # 229
Masasdi , your adjective "sellout" tells all.
Thanks for telling as it is.We have no shortage of this sellouts and peons.
Have good day

Re: # 225 Arjun what romair is saying right most are telling here they have prenomotion of rigging.
Elections can be clean ,Please keep in mind in india and pakistan getting votes is not important counting is more important and there will magic by powers to be.
India is not democracy it is drama/Gimmick of democracy. Please read many comments by YLH in this matters.

From the producers of "Don't taze me bro", to the Howard Dean shreik, to Huckabee talking about Pakistanis sneaking across the Mexico border, to the BS of the Clintons, to Tancredo's nonsense, every four years we see the "maturity" of the US politicians and then we have this sellout Zakaria having the audacity to talk about the maturity of the Pakistani politicians. Man, these US monkeys in the political process bring to shame the red assed baboons around the globe- next time they talk about political maturity think of these a$$ wipes.

HP mian you need to return to the homeland. I am trying to save you and your future generations from this miserable existance in the swamp hole....give me some goddamned credit...

#214 Posted by zeemax on January 18, 2008 8:54:20 am


There's a story of the frog and the boiling water:
This applies to the Kanjars. These are the frogs


What if you use artillery and mortars on the frogs? or maybe a "glock rifle" with a "locking laser scope"?

100 militants killed in South Waziristan

RAWALPINDI (Agencies) - At least 100 militants were killed in South Waziristan during bloody clashes between security forces and miscreants on Friday.
Miscreants started engaging Ladha Fort with small arms and rockets at 10:00am, according to an ISPR Press release.
A large number of miscreants started gathering around north of the Fort at 3:00pm. The security forces used artillery, mortars and small arms fire to engage the miscreants.
Reportedly, 50-60 miscreants were killed and rest of them dispersed. The security forces suffered no casualty.
An ISPR spokesman told that in the second incident that took place at 12:30pm, a convoy of security forces moving on Jandola-Wana Road was fired upon from Chaghmalai with small arms and rockets.
Security forces retaliated and engaged militants with small arms and rockets. The firefight continued for one hour.

#224 Posted by bulleya on January 18, 2008 12:20:11 pm

whatever zakaria's faults, he wasn't in iraq after the 2003 invasion selling t-shirts with US flags...

#225 Posted by bulleya on January 18, 2008 12:31:48 pm


- elections will be held, but will be massively rigged


WHOA...elections in pureland will be rigged!! you don't say!!

heard an interesting theory:....

- elections will be held, but will be massively rigged......musharraf will get the new parliament to grant him indemnity.......

after this, riots will occur, becuase of the people's anger against the rigging.....new elections will be held, and a new parliament will be sworn in.....

hamidm2 mian: "zakaria is one of two americans who understands foreign policy - john mccain is the other ...... i think we can get to critical mass if we get these two together!"

...wasn't zakaria the one cheering the americans into iraq......and isn't mccain the one who feels even more should be sent......

zakaria knows more than the other fools in the republic party who comment on foreign policy......probably becuause, unlike other americans, he has, acutally, seen things outside the usa......but, that isn't saying much....in my opinion, anyone who pushed usa into iraq should call it quits and turn to consulting in the auto industry......

the american who understands foreign policy is bill clinton.....you should listen to the speeches he makes to foreign audiences......they are quite different from the ones he has to make to naive americans.....anyone who can say that khatami of iran and him have a lot in common, and then justify it, is a genius......and my guess is hillary has more access to him than anyone else (other than paula jones and monica)....

until the republic party gets its head out of its ass, and stops making its decisions based on the popular support of the christian right, whose main foreign policy logic is based on their belief that the second coming of christ is not going to occur, until jews control all of the middle east, the republic party is never going to get out of the woods......

(the same christian right, will, then take out the jews, since they are the ones who put christ on the cross).....

Farid Zakaria "But it is also possible that Pakistan's political class might surprise us with its maturity."


There are two possibilities x and y, x is more probable than y but y is possible and might well be the surprise. And then they tell us that this fool, Zakaria is a goddamned genius....Like I said he doesn't have a clue, he is just rewording mainstream bs in new words mixing that with the obvious byproducts of the recent Musharraf actions.

Re: # 208 Hamidm2

"...please appoint fareed zakaria as secretary of state ..."

Hamidm2, how will that fit with your belief in the J-Man? The Zakaria family had political views that were diametrically opposite from J-Man's. Daddy Zakaria was closely associated with India's freedom movement and the Indian National Congress party. Not to mention that he was the Deputy Leader of the Congress Party under Indira Gandhi.

#217 Posted by HP:

" GT, Hamid is a master of subtleties." Agreed. At times, it is fun to play with god ;)

I understand that Zakaria is writing for the Western audience ... but IMO one paragraph, tucked in somewhere in the middle, was not enough.

#219, you I can because you know the reality of the US viz a viz Pakistan, Hamid I can only credit with absurdity, and Zakaria with hypocrisy. By the way, you need to return to the homeland, leave the human swamp hole for people like tahmed, they deserve each other...

asadi,

Would you not credit me with some subtlety?

HP writes "Hamid is a master of subtleties"

Rather he is a master of absurdities. McCain panders to the war crowd, together with Lieberman, that he manages to mix that with liberal banalities says nothing for the man. Zakaria just repeats the mainstream BS in new and improved words

GT,
Hamid is a master of subtleties. Pairing John McCain with Zakaria is a master stroke as both show significant amount of pandering to the audiences when it comes to political issues, still, they manage to put the truth out on the table.

The truth is Fareed Zakaria was trained in a very good school at home when it comes to political analysis. His father Rafiq was one of the better political analyst in India. Fareed obviously wants to step away from his father’s name and political thinking- which for many reasons would not be acceptable to his audience in the US.
Still, he drops enough hints in his articles for mature people to figure out what he is saying.

I have not the article yet but as quoted by you, when he says, "But it is also possible that Pakistan's political class might surprise us with its maturity."
Has plenty of beef for astute readers.

He is basically saying that the pak politicians need to show maturity in facing the current situation. I will read the complete article and would be able to comment on it later.

fuzair "On a completely different note, when were you at St. Mary's Lalazar and St. Patricks in Karachi? I'm assumng you were there about 12-15 years ;-) before me but just curious. "

I was in both those schools too until 1986, in Henderson's model O'level class stories about which abound

Hamidm Saab,

On a completely different note, when were you at St. Mary's Lalazar and St. Patricks in Karachi? I'm assumng you were there about 12-15 years ;-) before me but just curious.

There's a story of the frog and the boiling water:

When you put a frog in a pot of boiling water, it will jump out immediately.

However, if you put a frog in luke warm water and keep heating that water slowly, it will sit there and actually feel warm, till the water comes to a boil and it will die.

This applies to the Kanjars. These are the frogs in the water being applied the flame.

It is a certainly very naive suggestion. However there is a historical first situation in Pakistan: both political forces and military are tied up in their own problems. They will not be able to interfere much.

May be all those who have suffered, both in India and pakistan by militancy, can quickly generate a new dyanmics. Won't it be easier to call for opening schools and small industrial units in the turbulent areas of west pakistan and afganistan? Pakistani army is fighting a war which they will probably never win but if they are asked to run schools and ... run business (which they know how to), I'm sure many of us, pakistanies and Indians both (besides americans, europeans...) will come forward to finance, supervise and help. Maybe indian army can also be roped in work to do the same overtly on afghan side.

Just walking down the streets of Waziristan as women did in N. Ireland offering schools and work and not handing out money as British did.

A pipe dream!! yes when you see kids killing themselves. It is not for Houris but because of desperation daily lives and for small pittance. Wonder if they will go to school or take up stitching footballs if are paid the same money!!

Our own kids in Karachi, Lahore, Delhi will be able to live normal lives as tehy do in west. Half a chance and I'll pay for a school and spend a couple of months working there every year.

Hamid:

Do you know why Zakaria thinks "political class might surprise us". I do not. But it may have to do with your confident assertion that ... "as for abdul, he doesn't think - he is no better than sheep ".

Re: # 209

GT,

zakaria is one of two americans who understands foreign policy - john mccain is the other ...... i think we can get to critical mass if we get these two together!

..... as for abdul, he doesn't think - he is no better than sheep ..... 'civil society' includes the lawyers and lums students, but it does not include abdul or the sheep ....

Zakaria states:

"But it is also possible that Pakistan's political class might surprise us with its maturity."

No. The Pakistani political class as we know it will probably not surprise us. What is happening is that people are getting politicised - from (apolitical) MBA students in LUMS to a nine year old on the street challenging the police to students in Lahore opposing the bearded ones to (and very importantly) bearded ones opposing pseudo bearded ones. As a result the "political class" is changing. This "Changed" political class may well surprise us with its maturity a few years down the road.

This is not to say that one should give up on the PML/PPP etc. They are extremely important for democracy. I do not give a fig about this corruption nonsense. As Madani sahib has often pointed out, running a party and participating in elections requires money and we do not have proper institutions to generate this money. So corruption is OK. And in that sense BB was OK and so is NS. Wheeling and dealing is what is required in politics. No question about that. However, I have a feeling that this wheeling and dealing will be very cautious about the US and the army in the near future. At least, I hope so.

Hamid:

I read Zakaria's article. I do not understand why you found it to be great. Yes the dictator, BB and the jihadis are important but not as important as what is making Abdul think in between sips of tea or whatever he drinks. Unfortunately, Zakaria devoted only one paragraph to this phenomenon. I reproduce it below"

" At a political and constitutional level, the crisis in Pakistan is actually good news. Civil society has mobilized. The print media have been utterly fearless in its criticism of the president. Musharraf's actions have given the parties an agenda to get passionate about, and so far they have not succumbed to the infighting that often destroyed them in the past. It would be a mistake to romanticize Pakistan's democrats. Many are feudal, corrupt and pliant. But increasingly there are some young and talented ones emerging as well. The polls may be rigged, though there are fewer opportunities than before for massive illegalities. The king's party may be able to buy allegiances after the elections. But it is also possible that Pakistan's political class might surprise us with its maturity."

.... a request to president john mccain: please appoint fareed zakaria as secretary of state

http://www.fareedzakaria.com/articles/articles.html

majumdar, tahmed32,

Correct ... but this S.O.B still has one card up his sleeve, which is to have his own NRO declared illegal through his Supreme Court (ironically which exactly the previous SC would have done). and reopen all cases against Zardari to blackmail him.

He's working on that right now.

Re: # 203

Unfortunately for Pakistan, we have lost a great strategist and person of stature who had the charisma and gumption to carry Pakistan, meaning Benazir Bhutto. Rest of the crowd appears to be pygmies in this giant cesspool of opportunism and realpolitik. As for the PML-NS, they are already in negotiation with Musharraf & Co, so there is very little hope for any impeachment.

Re: # 202

TK

Under normal circumstances and fair political process Aitezaz would have been elected by any party. But for obvious reasons he is being sidelined:

1. He is not a Bhutto and PPP dynastic legacy demands Bhutto name and Aitezaz is well aware of that fact but had embraced it in the past.

2. Aitezaz violated party discipline when he chose to side with the lawyers and boycott elections.

3. Most worrying aspect, Aitezaz hails from Punjab and PPP cannot afford to offend its Sindhi vote bank by having a Punjabi party leader.

Re: # 195

Dear tahmed32

I totally endorse and second these thoughts. Everyone deserves a second chance, particularly those who have paid their dues to society or demonstrate signs of change. I totally agree with your thesis, BB had her shortcomings and made many mistakes in the past, but the way she carried herself against military dictatorship and their extremist cyborgs, she had earned the admiration of millions who had doubted her in the past.

Let me also add, generally speaking you have conducted yourself with utmost civility and restraint with the odd exception here and there. Certainly mark of a gentleman and deserving of respect. If I have wavered and offended it has been only because of your simplistic approach towards life, there are no good guys and bad guys in this world, like u rightfully said everyone deserves a second chance, then why not accord the same axiom to MQM? Any how, that is your prerogative, and like someone said, "I may disagree with you, but will give my life to protect your right to disagree". Thanks.

Tahmed sahib,

If indeed PPP/PML-N (who I have no doubt will corner the bulk of the seats if free and fair elections are held) can come together post elections (irrespective of who wins) and have Mushy impeached and subjected to a FREE, FAIR and OPEN trial for treason, they may well have put Pakistan on a one-way road to true democracy. Here's hoping that's what wud happen.

Regards

Sorry for getting a bit off track on this discussion.. but I can't help thinking... Where is Aitzaz Ahsan in this PPP leadership struggle and why is he not being acknowledged?I think he is a statesman with a vote bank and a refined gentleman (and he understands the Pakisani political environment)....combination of qualities not found in any other Pakistani politician..He should have been the PPP chairman!!!

T.K
Sydney, Australia

majumdar #200 True. Regardless of whether it is PPP or PML-N that gets the most votes, they will no doubt see the impeachment of Musharraf as being Job 1. And they will be united in that. Musharraf is now struggling to avoid that by trying to get one of them to his side and thus avoid impeachment, which could very well result in not just his removal from office but also having the criminal law book thrown at him. So, how this all plays out is anyone's guess at this stage.

Tahmed sahib,

It is not necessary for a leader to have personal following in all states. For instance if either PPP or PML-N could cobble together a pre-election alliance of regional parties (and then win it) as is common in India since 1996, they could create the same impact as that of a nation-wide alliance.

Regards

zeemax #197 True. Benazir seems to have united Pakistanis in her death. All except Musharraf - who, true to form, made stupid and gratuitous remarks about how her death was her "own fault", forgetting that what he saw as a "fault" the rest of her countrymen, and indeed the rest of the world, sees quite rightly as a strength - namely, physical courage.

the article i mention in #196 is

Beyond Elections: Searching for Leadership in Pakistan
by Shuja Nawaz, Huffingtonpost.com

Excerpts:

...Pakistan is desperately searching for a new leadership that could set the agenda for a return to national unity and democracy. ...Bhutto, with her support in all four provinces, promised them that transnational leadership. That is why her loss will be a major blow to Pakistan's political development and survival. ...... General Kayani, a professional soldier, has hinted at the power of the people to influence events in Pakistan when he told his senior-most generals recently that "Ultimately it is the will of the people and their support that is decisive."...He may have to give a clearer public statement of the army's support for whatever government emerges in post-election Pakistan...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/shuja-nawaz/beyond-elections-searchi_b_81886.h tml

#195 Posted by tahmed32,

Ref your remark as well as Beena's eulogy, if Benazir had been so brave, she shold have come back before the NRO was signed and sealed. After all, she was never in any forced exile.

She was brave in death though ... I admire that.

pavocavalry #191 That is a great write-up you provided along with your post. As the attached article indicates, Kiyani seems to be making the right but cautious moves by reminding generals verbally that they any army needs popular support to be effective. Even more significantly, he has reminded his generals - in writing - that as military officers they may not communicate directly with the President without requesting his permission. Has the army finally learnt something? Let us hope so.

beenasarwar #193 you write "Even if all the allegations about her corruption and arrogance are true, one should keep in mind that she was active in politics for thirty years, out of which she was in power only for four and a half years. The rest of the time she struggled against two of the most well entrenched military dictators in the region."

While Benazir had serious shortcomings, she has more than paid the nation back for these with her bold step in returning to Pakistan to face Musharraf backed by a mighty force of a large standing army and police, the ISI (whose main task seems to be to crush any attempts by the Pakistani people to breathe free), and global terrorists like ben laden and zawahiri. This bold step to move Pakistan out of Musharraf's clutches was (for me, and no doubt for millions of Pakistanis) more than enough to redeem her. In losing her life in the process after making the beautiful Last Speech that called for all Pakistanis to unite as one, Benazir has not just redeemed herself, she has become a figure of historical proportions, loved and remembered by Pakistanis in the years and decades and centuries to come.

And her husband may have been Mr. 10%, the fact is that he did spend 11 years or so in prison. He too has paid his debt to society for his shenanigans, and like any citizen who has done his time he too deserves a second chance. Even though he started off on the wrong foot in his haste to take over the party chairmanship, he has matched that by coming out loud and clear in his opposition to Musharraf.

Enclosed is a pertinent piece on the Sharif's, a little outdated yet worth reading.

{Shahbaz Sharif: back to future?
Shahid Anwar

Sharifs are neither a revolutionary stuff like Imam Khomeini nor democrats. They can play any card to get in power corridors, however. From commercialization of politics (through bribes and horse-trading) to Punjabism and Islamism, they have used every thing that served their political interests.

Shahbaz Sharif’s likely return to Pakistan is talk of the town. Has he got the ‘signal’ from the powers that be or he has mustered enough courage and strength to defy them? Would his return herald a new democratic era? Answer to these futuristic questions may lie in the past.

The story of Sharifs rise to power in1980s and fall in1999, followed by their exile, is conspicuously marked with clandestine deals with the establishment. The big brother emerged to political scene as blue eyed boy of General Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq, after General Jilani ‘picked’ him as finance minister of Punjab. He became chief minister of Punjab thanks to active and obvious support of his mentor—General Zia. In the wake of tug of war between GHQ and Parliament, instead of strengthening the position of his own party leader Muhammad Khan Jonejo, the then Prime Minister of Pakistan, Nawaz turned against him and allied with his true masters in Khaki. As the chief minister of Punjab during the first Benazir government in Islamabad, he never accepted and honored her democratic mandate. For the first time in history, he played the ‘Punjab card’ and tried to arouse ‘Punjabi chauvinism’ against a Sindhi Prime minister—Benazir Bhutto. To buy the loyalties of MNA’s during No-trust move against Benazir, he indulged in horse-trading at massive scale.

During the days of his hyper activity to dislodge Ms Bhutto, he was decoyed to a rest house in Murree to final the deed with some PPP’s leaders—apparently for sale. Had Mian Zahid Sarfraz not prevented him to reach the site, he would have been arrested red handed by the Intelligence Bureau in operation named ‘midnight jackal’. During both of his terms as PM, he misruled the country, shattered economy and financial institutions with populist gimmicks, and victimized opposition. The husband of his ‘political sister’, now, remained in Jail during his rule. Sharifs effectively undermined the freedom of press and independence of judiciary. To the shame of nation, they masterminded and executed a successful physical assault of the highest court of Pakistan. Encouraged by getting the superior judiciary humiliated, apparently subordinated army, and docile presidency, Nawaz Sharif did attempt to become ‘Ameer-ul-Momineen’ through abortive fifteenth amendment to the constitution.

All this is now a dark and sad part of our checkered history but probably not the part of our collective memory. Therefore now we are told day after day that Sharifs are getting increasingly impatient to ‘serve’ us again. The impressions created by the current media hype on possibility of Sharifs’ come back portray an amusing picture. A section of media wants us to believe that all the ills of polity and democracy are caused by ‘illegal and unconstitutional’ exile of ‘genuine leaders of people’. These ailments will be cured the moment Sharifs and Ms. Bhutto land on the soil of Pakistan. No one seems ready to recall the state of affairs during their rule. As if all were milk and honey when they had been in the helm of affairs. Of course nothing can be farther from truth than these rosy assumptions.

Sharifs are neither a revolutionary stuff like Imam Khomeini nor democrats. They can play any card to get in power corridors, however. From commercialization of politics (through bribes and horse-trading) to Punjabism and Islamism, they have used every thing that served their political interests. They had been discredited much before they lost power largely due to their own follies. The only thing goes to their credit is that people are short on memory. So they can expect a hero’s welcome if and when they are back home. We are ready to give them a free ride once again, this time in the name of democracy and grand reconciliation.

Still the misdeeds of anyone do not disqualify him or her from having a fair treatment under the law of the land. The principle of rule of law demands equal treatment for any one irrespective of his or her status. Islam also strictly stands for the same. In this regard the very deal under which the Sharifs were allowed to leave was (favorably) discriminatory unconstitutional and illegal. No common man charged with terrorist acts like hijacking, and also convicted by a court, can be awarded with such a ‘punishment’ of safe exit to foreign country. No Sharifs-sympathizer then questioned this violation of law of land. Rather it was then interpreted as sign of divine blessing that Sharifs were ‘called’ into the Holy Land.

But now in the changed circumstances Sharifs seemingly want to test the political waters. The current media frenzy will not go along for to far. If Mr. Shahbaz Sharif finally decides to come back, he will have to face some hard realities on ground. It is naïve to believe that he can break into power corridors without reaching some ‘understanding’ with the military. If he comes to terms with army he will lose much of his populist appeal. Anyway, his return is not going to be an earth-shaking event. No revolution is in offing. }

Here's an excellent piece by Mohammed Hanif, a gifted writer who has worked as a reporter with Newsline, scripted a feature film, and heads the BBC Urdu Service – `My Benazir
Murder Fantasy'. The entire article is worth reading but this part jumped out at me:
"…Any sudden death can tinge one's memory and judgment but there are certain facts about her which are conveniently ignored. Even if all the allegations about her corruption and arrogance are true, one should keep in mind that she was active in politics for thirty years, out of which she was in power only for four and a half years. The rest of the time she struggled against two of the most well
entrenched military dictators in the region. The reason we don't see very many dossiers on the financial corruption during General Zia and General Musharraf's regimes is that when Bhutto was in power the intelligence agencies went into over drive documenting or sometimes inventing her misdemeanours. When the generals or their cronies are
in power all the intelligence leaks just dry up…"
Full text at: http://sacredmediacow.com/?p=1012.
Also see Editor The Nation, Arif Nizami's piece on the ground realities that have drastically changed in recent months, and Benazir's will that Zardari's opponents have been insisting is forged - "Need for a breather: Benazir Bhutto's will is genuine", The Nation, Thursday, 17 Jan 2008 - http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/jan-2008/17/index1.php
Nizami has a credible reputation and there is further significance in the fact that this article was published in a paper from an ideologically driven (right-wing) media group that has traditionall supported the 'establishment'.

Ms. Beena, and I quote
"Is Bilawal about to run the country? Aren’t there other more important issues at hand than who heads the PPP? "

Important issues PPP is supposedly the largest political party in Pakistan and you have the audacity to say there are more important issues... It's the captain of a ship that steers the course not the other way round...

A 19 year old as the head of a political party of a nation as volatile as Pakistan!!!!!! It's not the middle ages or for that matter we are not having Mohammad Bin Qasim reincarnation.... so please stick to facts and not emotional rhetoric...

Believe you me I am also saddend by Ms. Bhutto's death but that does not excuse the fact that there a 140 million people's life at stake...

So get down from your high horse and see the reality...

M/s Beena :-- What you are saying is right but the great tragedy and irony is that the USA has consistently supported the " Dirty Tricks Brigade" . Another great tragedy is that another " Dirty Tricks Brigade" assasinated the great Murtaza Bhutto.

The second fact is that the political forces of Pakistan have consistently failed to launch an armed insurrection or a revolution to remove the tinpot Paki generals who usurped power.

Below is an article I wrote and was published in NATION,Lahore in December 2003.

29 DEC 2003

NATION


WHY PAKISTAN DOES NOT NEED GENERALS

A.H Amin


While pessimism is not the right attitude , what can a country exploited for more than half its history by self styled field marshals , military usurpers , ex political agents and windbag spineless prime ministers kicked upwards by military intelligence agencies,have any other attitude than pessimism !

While the Khalsa was Sikh by religion and driven by an anti Muslim legacy , the supposed army of the post 1947 land of pure was created not to make defence housing authorities but to defend the country ! Not to assasinate constitutions but to draft a sound military strategy to defend the first major ideological state of modern Islamic world ! While the soldiers miserably failed in strategy in both 1965 and 1971 they did brilliantly well in usurping power and in conspiring against elected prime ministers , whether it was subverting the 1956 or 1973 constitution or launching a Quixotic military manouvre propelled by personal ambition , as was the case in Kargil !


For those sycophants who cite Pakistan's success in facing the Indian mobilisation of 2001-2 as a success of Musharrafs great so called strategic insight , one may safely state that Pakistan was saved because of the Nuclear programme initiated by Mr Bhutto and finalised by Nawaz Sharif rather than by any other conventional non nuclear deterrrent !

As far as Pakistan's raised so called international profile in international forums is concerned , all thanks go to the planners of the 9/11 attacks rather than any diplomatic insight on part of Musharraf or his team , since the same Musharraf before 9/11 was regarded as a liability in Western diplomatic eyes !


The so called cowardly assasination attempt on Musharraf is too complicated an affair and may have been planned by intelligence sleuths as an ulterior event in order to get more anti terrorism aid from USA and to further project Mushharraf as the West's blue eyed man in Pakistan !


As far as leadership producing institutions in Pakistan are concernede it is debatable to state that there are three institutions in the country that can produce leadership: The political class, the bureaucracy, and the armed forces. Firtsly the army did not produce first rate higher leadership and the 1965 and 1971 and even kargil wars were fought by motivated majors and colonels led by phenomenally barren generals! In 1965 Pakistan Army failed to achieve any breakthrough despite massive numerical and material superiority in Khem karan ! Chawinda ,Chamb etc were basically cases of unit level daring and confusion rather than cases of triumph of higher strategic leadership ! Indian historian gurcharan Singh admitted that only 25 Cavalry alone saved Pakistan in 1965 ! As far as the political class's potential to produce leadership is concerned the army and the bureaucracy never allowed this class to fully realise its potential thanks to repeated military interventions and bureaucratic Byzantine manoeuvres !

As far as feudal politics is concerned researches of various notable analysts like Hamza Alavi and qbal Ahmed prove that the military junta and the feudals were natural allies since 1947 and the same state persists to date !

Again it would be a fallacy to equate Musharraf with degaulle or Mustafa Kemal ! Degaulle did not usurp power but won elections ! Kemal won his laurels at gallipoli in battle and was acknowledged by Briti9sh official history as the man who changed the course of history ! On the other hand musharraf won his laurels in syndicate rooms of staff college and defence college and did not see action in both 1965 and 1971 war .


What is happening is that the Pakistani military junta aided by US experts and US citizens like Shaukat Aziz are agents of change implementing the new US grand strategic agenda of creating strategic meekness and docility in the Third worlds leadership and finally denuclearising [Pakistanh at some stage ! All that was created since 1947 may be very subtly reduced to insignificance if the Musharraf regime continues at its present pace ! A state manipulated by CIA ,FBI NSA and Pentagon and acting as USA 's tactical garbage collector in West Asia.

"FLOUR TESTS: Taking notice of sale of substandard flour in the market, the FFC has asked paramilitary forces to collect flour samples from their respective areas and send them to laboratories for quality tests."

The above is from Dawn of today. As the para military are surrendering to the jihadis, the pak govt has found an alternate job for them.

There is no free lunch for any one in pakistan. Surrender is no more an option for pak paramilitary, they have to collect samples.

Long live pakistan.

Educated pakistani

1. A highly educated pakistani, a mid level executive at Citi Bank was made the finance minister and then the prime minister of pakistan. With a dictatorial rule he could have done anything for teh good of pakistan. He did not add a single KW of power generation capacity during his 8 years in power. Was he educated or simply schooled.

2. Pak railways imports diesel engines from China after several technical evaluations. The last major crash of teh train was because teh engines were too heavy for teh tracks. Now the tracks have to be changed to use the engines. The spcialists, teh engineers who reviewed the engine, where they educated or schooled.

3. Hardly any of the pak interactors on chowk appear to be educated. It is these educated pakistanis, they are the bane of pakistan.

The true nature of pak soldiers.

In pakistan people join the military enamored by the wealth and influence of the generals and hoping that they can get a share of it, however minute. The training and the work they do, helping the jihadis, running WAPDA etc eventually creates a mind set that to be in the military is to enjoy power and and have an easy life.

That is why the military, para military...you name it are surrendering and or abandoning their posts, because they never thought that they will have to fight.

A few colnels and 200 troops surrendered to a few rag tag jihadis. Now two camps have been over run, manned by the para military, simply because the army will not dare to move.

Where is YLH with the Chuck Jaeger comments. Finally there is a situation, people hate the military and the military knows that they can only deal with un-armed civilians.

No Pakistani, no educated pakistani wants to accept the reality. Pak army has only surrendered, the 1947 kashmir invasion was carried out by the tribals, and now they are invading pakistan.

'exaggerated threat perception versus Exaggerated Indispensibility' was my thesis on which a University in Turkey held a Seminar. I repaste a para.

C. Cem OÄžUZ
Pakistan's Gen. Pervez Musharraf's highly controversial actions since Nov.3 have caused remarkable discontent both inside Pakistan and among the international community. It is actually widely believed that his move basically stemmed from his fear that the Supreme Court was about to declare his re-election while in uniform unconstitutional. Musharraf, in turn, justified his actions by pointing to the deterioration of law and order in the country. In response to growing international criticism, on the other hand, he presented the measures he took as part of his attempts to save the country from the menace of terrorism. The enigma henceforth should be, as posed by analyst Ijaz Gul, whether Musharraf has in fact become “a victim of his exaggerated threat perception or exaggerated indispensability.�

http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=91051

Brayings of that pathetic Donkey Musharraf:

"Answering Newsweek’s Fareed Zakaria’s question if he thought he was the best “person to fight this war against the jihadis�, General (retd) Musharraf said: “The United States thought Benazir was the right person to fight terrorists. Who is the best person to fight?

You need three qualities today if you want to fight the extremists and the terrorists. Number one, you must have the military with you. Well, she was very unpopular with the military. Very unpopular.

Number two, you shouldn’t be seen by the entire religious lobby to be alien — a nonreligious person.

The third element: don’t be seen as an extension of the United States. Now I am branded as an extension, but not to the extent she was.

Pakistanis know that I can be tough. I can speak out against Hillary Clinton. I can speak out against anyone. These are the elements. You be the judge.�(DAWN -- Kashfi)

do we still want to know what killed Benazir? Wait till Hillary becomes the President -- tough guy.

#184 alternatively, Rana Bhagwandas could invite the King to a vegetarian meal... :-)

"KARACHI, Jan 16: Police on Wednesday withdrew ‘additional security’ from outside the home of former acting chief justice Rana Bhagwandas.

Superintendent of Police, Clifton told Dawn that the authorities had enhanced security for the former judge in view of ‘intelligence reports’."(DT)

The reliable sources said that the "additional Security" was placed around Justice Bhagwandas residence when the Honble Justice declined the invitation to go to Mecca to do the Umra as a VIP guest of the Saudi King.

HP,
"Did you watch the Pakistani umpire helping India!"

Last night i could not watch the game. From the news reports only Rogers LB decision was iffy. But there were two questionable LB decisions against India too. So far umpiring seems to be reasonably good in this match.

Why do you feel Rauf is helping India?

Re: # 167
"For a Pakistani citizen nothing can be more demoralising than this..."

I am not demoralized by this at all. Unless the naPak army becomes the laughing stock of the entire world the Punju lot, which generously populates it to suck the rest of the nation's blood, will not come to their senses. Pakistan will never be free, nor can it develop, unless this cancer is completely cauterized.

"WASHINGTON: House Speaker Nancy Pelosi on Wednesday praised former premier Benazir Bhutto’s “tremendous contribution to the cause of democracy�, while calling for an international investigation into her assassination and free and fair elections in Pakistan.

In an emotional address to the House, the speaker said the slain Pakistani leader possessed “remarkable optimism about the future a belief in the power of dialogue, and a strong commitment to democracy.� In the days and weeks that have followed Benazir’s death, Pelosi said, there has been little good news from Pakistan.

“The Musharraf government continues to deny the Pakistani people a full accounting of the assassination and the events that followed. There must be a strong international investigation of this despicable crime.

The best way the United States can honour the legacy of Benazir Bhutto, she proposed, is to renew its engagement DIRECTLY with the people of Pakistan" (Khalid Hasan)

NOT through Musharraf sahib -- and that's what the Democrats are going to do to Musharraf miaN -- make him absolutely dispensable.

"Aur bhi ghum hain zamanay meiN Musharraf kay sewaa"

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There is no place on earth where life rigged by rules made for you by others, can become so boring and meaningless as the US, forcing you to turn to useless consumption for "meaning", it is for this reason that over 60 percent of the public in the US looks like jabba the hut, including hamid and tahmed, as if sitting around in a coffee shop all day long sipping lattes and gazing at the waitress who reeks of smoke and cigarettes is some kind of "existence"...

HP mian return to the homeland...

The US is perfect for people like tahmed, people of shallow morals and backstabbers and rank racists. In fact if someone wants to curse his kind, curse them with perpetual existance in the meaningless life in the human hell hole the US that is sold to the world as some kind of heaven...

HP writes "There are many instances in history when groups of people decided to leave their homeland and ended up never owning a land"

You need to return to Pakistan man, leave the godforsaken shithole the US of A, a disgrace to all things civilized and human. Return to Pakistan we need you here, life is more meaningful and of substance unlike the BS in the US

tahmed writes " Benazir will forever be the Daughter of Pakistan who gave her life for the cause of Pakistan."

The only reason why this snake supports BB (when he has said horrible things about ZAB in the past) is because she was hobnobbing with the Shaitan towrads the end of her life, and this idiot worships the shaitan. That she realized the shenanigans of the US elite and was coming round to her father's legacy at the very end, considering principles of greater worth than US whoring around with the dictators is why the US in congruence with the Pak Army and insiders like Zardari got rid of her...That this swine who sides with her murderes is now trying to float some "cause of Pakistan" is just plain sickening. The very souls of such people like tahmed are dirty. May Allah ruin them.....

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OK. Boys and girls, Who made this speech?

"I say that Hindu leadership is still harping on the same old story that we are a minority and that they are willing to give all the safeguards according to the principle laid down by the League of Nations. I read this formula to-day laid down by a great Hindu leader, who spoke at the Hindu Minorities Conference that was going on yesterday in this city. Let me tell my friends, the Hindu leaders, that the League of Nations is dead. Don't you know that yet?

Let me tell them, they are living at least a quarter of a century behind. Not only that, but you do not realise that the entire face of the world is being changed from week to week and from month to month in the European and other fields of battle. And a nation must have territory. "

And btw,
This has already been reported in Pakistani papers...You missed them last night..didn't you? Did you watch the Pakistani umpire helping India!

This is what the Navy Adm. William J. Fallon said.

“Pakistan is taking a more welcoming view of U.S. suggestions for using American troops to train and advise its own forces in the fight against anti-government extremists, the commander of U.S. forces in that region said Wednesday.�
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/16/A R2008011601238.html

You are in a such a hurry to run with the half news that you can’t even research it well. The US is training and advising Pakistan for a while. Idiot, the US has bases in Pakistan, in Jacobad and Baluchistan.

Give me something that is new…. Do you know how to read a blog? Ever tried checking the links in blogs?
Puky research!

Re: # 168 HP

The Surge Hits Pakistan

The surge is about to hit Pakistan. The top U.S. commander for the Middle East says that the deteriorating situation in the country and the increased violence in the frontier area have prompted Islamabad to accept plans for U.S. forces in the country for the first time since early 2002. Meanwhile, a top counter-terrorism diplomat says the situation has become so dire, the United States cannot afford to wait.

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/earlywarning/2008/01/the_surge_hits_ pakistan.html?nav=rss_blog

That's not a Paki newspaper!

Re: # 167 Indian

Can Musharraf use his 'strategic assets' (and I am not referring to his swagger and braggadocio here, but to his nukes) to 'take out' these guys like he 'took out' that Bugti fellow in Baluchistan?

#167
"For a Pakistani citizen nothing can be more demoralising than this."

You are not the first Indian to post this here. Why all of you think only you read Pakistani papers? It must be demoralizing for you to not find anything to read in your own papers.

What is so demoralizing about it? There is an insurgency going on there. It is not that Indian soldiers don't get mauled down and mangled in Assam and Kashmir.

These half educated nincompoops post news here as if they are the only one reading papers. Idiot!

Flame the casbah!

For a Pakistani citizen nothing can be more demoralising than this.

Soldiers flee second Pakistani post after threats from militants


ISLAMABAD, Jan 17 (AP) Dozens of Pakistani troops abandoned an outpost near
the border with Afghanistan Thursday after receiving threats from militants,
an intelligence official, a local resident and a spokesman for the insurgents said.
However, an army spokesman immediately denied that the post at Saklatoi in South Waziristan
had been evacuated. ''I strongly contradict this news and this post is in our control,''
said Maj. Gen. Athar Abbas. The conflicting reports could not immediately be reconciled.
The intelligence official, who requested anonymity, said the paramilitary troops fled the
roadside post without a fight after the militants warned them to vacate or face attack.
The official, who was in the area, said the troops had already reached a military base in
the nearby Jandola town. Maulvi Mohammad Umar, a purported militant spokesman, said the
troops surrendered after 500 fighters surrounded the post. ''We released them (the troops)
under the spirit of Islam,'' he said by telephone from an undisclosed location. ''
The Taliban have now hoisted their white flag on the fort.'' A resident in Jandola said
the troops had abandoned the post, citing accounts from other tribesmen who had passed by
the fort and seen it.(Posted @ 18:10 PST)


http://www.dawn.com/2008/01/17/welcome.htm

So called Democratic Party for you.

Re: # 163

Yours and ours situation is different. You have processes in place, system takes time, and things kinda sort out themselves.

We on the other hand are in a grinding mill right now. The process will be a lot faster than yours. Price to pay will be enormous.

Re: # 160

Yaar pahleez, what do you take me for, a hindu from across the border who knows squat about our country and pretends to be an expert? The people of rural sindh vote for that candidate which they expect to win and by the way the skull caps, the jhunda, and kitab do win in sindh too.

This situation is absolutely no different in rural Punjab either. People will vote for that candidate who is expected to win. they want someone to save them from police, land revenue, and local goverment.

In a country like ours where every ten miles falls under the fiefdom of one or the other, people do not have choice to be upright and vote for candidate on ideological basis. Feudalism and Democracy are mutually exclusive.

#154 Posted by zeemax:

"Pakistanis have not run out of Rotis. They are just being 'deprived' of Rotis."

This is what happens under dictatorships. It happened in China under Mao, in USSR just before Lenin's NEP and under Stalin, it caused the Great Bengal Famine in 1942 (?). It is bound to happen under dictatorships imposed by military lords or religious "leaders". Amartya Sen has a book on this, the ideas therein do not originally belong to him though.

#157 Posted by tahmed32:

"I dont think that the movement is dying off though."

I genuinely hope that you are right.

#158 Posted by Urstruly:

"Give us some time and we will all blend in nicely."

I hope this happens in India too ... across castes and regions but I am not very hopeful about it during my life-time. Recently saw the barbaric beating-up of adivasis in Assam (on TV). Forget blending, I just hope that we get a wee bit more civilized.

I agree with urstruly. Any community that intermarries will eventually be diluted. Intermarriage is increasingly common in all pakistani communities, and thats a good thing.

enough time spent on chowk. i better go before hamidm accuses me of having too much time. God bless.

"I think the only progressive sindhi politicians are two gentlemen, Jam Saaqi and Rasul Bux Palejo. "

Both dear friends and seniors. Though I don't agree with Palejo on many things. There are many more you don't know sqaut about.
However, what the Sindhi majority is doing is what counts the most. They don't vote for skull caps and tasbih, they don't vote for the Kitab and they don't vote for the nabi ka jhanda(noorani mian).

They vote for people who promise a better life, better future and a respectful life.They don't vote for bhatta khor, purse and cell phone snatchers. What happens afterwards is not in their control. That control as you say is with the Napaak army and the fascist MQM as itss ally!

zeemax #154 I think the driving force behind food shortages is the rise in world food prices from everything i have read about. What you say is no doubt right wrt mismanagement by the government in promoting foodcrops export without regard to domestic shortages. my only point is - that food shortages are not deliberate. even musharraf cant be that stupid (and granted he is in his current predicament due to a mixture of gross arrogance and stupidity).

Re: # 152 I think, the chaos that you refer to is inevitable. Our country is passing trough a revolution right now; imagine us being the contents in a milk shake jug rotating, swirling- every one of them struggling to keep its identity or prejudice intact, for it was one thing that was giving him comfort and safety in the past. Give us some time and we will all blend in nicely.

GT #152 Well said, sir and good advice to stop this idle bickering and focus on the real problem/opportunity!!

Pakistanis need to focus on this great opportunity created by the sacrifices of the CJ, the judges, lawyers, journalists, Benazir, among others. The opportunity being to put Pakistan back on track wrt the rule of law.

I dont think that the movement is dying off though. I think it wont end until musharraf is out. And we may yet see the Chief Justice and the Supreme Court restored, which is the key to bringing Pakistan back on track.

HP: welcome to the National Assembly debate bro.

You make very valid points here. Note that BB inspired not just the poor people of Sindh but of the rest of Pakistan as well. The NWFP, Panjab, and Baluchistan.

This recognition of the rights of the poor is the great and noble contribution of not just the Bhuttos (despite their shortcomings and despite their inability to deliver on their promises) but of all Sindh to the rest of Pakistan. Benazir will forever be the Daughter of Pakistan who gave her life for the cause of Pakistan.

Re: # 150

I think the only progressive sindhi politicians are two gentlemen, Jam Saaqi and Rasul Bux Palejo. Everyone other than them is a either a feudal lord with private jails who marrie his sisters with Quran or a Pir who marries quaran with his sisters and has private jails. If this is your concept of progressive politicians then you should cut down your favorite mashroob a bit for it is consuming your grey cells.

#149 Posted by tahmed32,

Read this extract from a UP thread I had posted:

Pakistanis have not run out of Rotis. They are just being 'deprived' of Rotis.

See, this part of Punjab (which is now the Pakistani Punjab) was the bread basket of the entire sub-continent - and still is.

First the government ministers switched crops (through financing facilities incentives) to sugarcane and exported the sugar so there was a sugar crisis in 2006/7, and the price of sugar shot up to Rs 40/kg, then they imported from India and Cuba and made a bucketful.

Then they continued to import sugar and switched back to wheat production. Are you with me so far?

Then they mis-stated the production as being 23.5 million tons as against the combined Pakistan/Afghanistan consumption of 20 million tons - instead of the actual 19.5 million tons produced - and justified exporting 2.5 million tons at world prices which were much higher. That left available wheat at 17 million tons, i.e. 3 million tons short of demand. (All wheat to Afghanistan is supplied by Pakistan, and smuggling can't be stopped).

Now when the domestic wheat crunch hit, they imported again at world prices and are selling it at 3 times the original domestic price (i.e. Rs 25/kg Vs Rs 8/kg) and again making a bundle.

Musharraf, in order to buy loyalties, has been allowing all sorts of blatant scams by his political allies (privatizations, sugar, cement, wheat) just to remain in power.

But Pakistanis are a hugely resilient and talented people, and are not easily fooled. It is just a matter of time when things are corrected - through dismantling the current system to be replaced by one with full accountability and justice.

Pakistan is a very rich country, far from being poor. I have always maintained it is being kept poor.

Rgds

HP tell me honestly because i dont know whats rhetoric with you and whats not. When educated sindhi's come on tv and say proudly "we are slaves to the bhutto's". When they say "if bhutto asked me to vote for a donkey i'd do that"

does that embarass you or not? Is being someone's slave a badge of honor?

BB's death sidelined the lawyers and the students. It has also resulted in pathetic chauvanism here in chowk. The way you guys are going at each other does not even compare to how Hindus and Muslims have been going after each other all through chowk's history.

Look, feudalism dominates not only rural Sind but the entire rural sub-continent. All of us are chauvanists and almost all are fundamentalists. But at times, history provides us with a chance to hope for a better future where we can call ourselves civilized. I would like to believe that Pakistanis (apparently not the ones in chowk) are doing something different as we speak amidst all the chaos and violence. And this process is much bigger than BB, the dictator or Altaph. So let us get positive. We do not have to keep on discussing chauvanism etc., we know it very well for we all are chauvanists .... and uncivilized.

lol urstruly !!! #128 was good too.

Zeemax jee!!! i am not discounting HP's knowledge of sind, i am deriding his worship of a defunct immoral pathetic and exceedingly backward social structure.

Chachoo i am supposed to be all riled up when the army takes away your right to vote and i can expect no visable sympathy from you when this defunct corrupt disgusting feudal system takes away every nonfeudal pakistani's right to basic human dignity.

Leave it to educated pakistani's to bewail everything else thats unjust but make every excuse possible for the caste system and karo kari at the same time. And if you defy that logic then you must be a fascist on some "hate brigade"....even if you happen to be right. The real question is feudal lovers , - why does reality hate feudals so much :(

Last night a question came up about who is more progressive. Between watching the game(where Pakistani umpire is helping Indians, turning the game in Indians favor) and sipping of my favorite mashroob, I forgot to mention that have you ever seen Sindhi poor, ignorant hari and the middle class voting for the most regressive political parties like the JI and Noorani main and now the stringent fascists party the MQM?

Why is that the supposedly most “educated� people in Pakistan vote for the most regressive parties in Pakistan?

Have you ever seen Sindhi fighting the communal and sectarian battles amongst themselves? There are plenty of Shia in Sindh and pretty much all Sindhis whether they are Sunnni or Shai, pay tribute to the martyred Imam. Why is that there no sunny tehrik or Shia tehrik in Sindh.

The poor and uneducated Sindhi show enough common sense to never vote for the extremist in their ranks and elect people that are moderate and liberal in their lifestyle, why is that not true for the Most educated people.

Would any one believe that poor and uneducated elect Benazir and the educated elect Altaf the fascist, who speaks urdu in guttural accent and often is not able to pronounce words correctly?

Zeemax,
Cat got his tongue…Saanp soongh giya!

urstruly: and while i am here - your saying (wrt the pictures you had posted) that musharraf is behind the food shortage was also a dud shot. read up on the world food the crisis, and you will realize that the shortage is not caused by musharraf (who would have to be even more stupid than he has proved himself to be to cause a food crisis and turn even more people against himself) but by much bigger issues beyond his control (i.e. jump in world food prices, which has caused foodstuffs in the panjab to be smuggled into central asia). This jump in world food prices is caused by factors well beyond musharraf's control: ie. rising incomes in China and India and other previously poor nations have increased demand for meat products which in turn translate into greater demand , as have increased demands of crops for synthetic fuel due to environmental concerns.

So - lets stick to the facts. even if this is chowk and you are free to write what you like.

#144 urstruly: nice shot. but a dud. try again.

cb #143 welcome to the National Assembly debate.

you keep talking about feudals. however, it is not the feudals who are supporting military rule. it is mqm.

This is not about ethnicity. This is about military rule: There is no shortage of urdu-speaking against musharraf's rule (starting with Justice Wajihuddin who is rightly honored across Pakistan). Nor is there a shortage of panjabis (starting with p. elahi) who are supporting musharraf's dictatorship.

Think of the above before you start accusing people speaking out against musharraf's lawless behavior of being racists against urdu-speaking people.

And note below how these mqm-ites refer to other Pakistanis - i see even mr. madani suddenly becoming a gora-sahib (despite his inabilithy to write two coherent sentences in english) and belittling the "natives". This is racism. Not speaking out against dictatorship.

#143 Posted by cliftonbridge,

Ma'am, even given HP's various and numerous transgressions on other subjects at times, no one here knows Sind better than HP does. His views should not be discounted!

#142 Posted by tahmed32,

??? Don't you know the fake bismillah always lurking around to get STFU'd?

Re: # 143

tahmad is Moulana Fazlur Rehman of chowk.

The world no longer believes in royalty, even indians are giving up on their caste system but backwards feudals still think they can survive the 21st century by begging on their defeated knees to be treated as kings. Those days are over.

The truth is that the feudals biggest crimes are the ones committed agianst their own community. And the writings on the wall, one day their serfs are going to rebel against them french revolution style either inspired by islamists or pseudo communists.

To keep their house niggers confused about who the real enemy is the feudals have learned to dance about clap their hands and complain about ethnic chauvanism (which apparently is totally fine when they do it). Never underestimate the children of a defeated empires ability to keep themselves deluded, and that goes for all chest thumping pakistanis.

Could shameless apologists like HP and Beena please explain how the "hate brigade" was able to convince the courts of sovereign european countries that BB was a petty crook and should be arrested if set foot on their land?

Tahmed chachoo i am willing to believe that all your beliefs have nothing to do with ethnicity nationality ....or even reality. But if anyone supports a urdu speaking anyone its always somehow racist. No benefit of the doubt is ever allowed there. I do blame you for having some pretty wild double standards.

zeemax: and what "fake bismillah" should i STFU on?

#138 Posted by tahmed32,

Not at all Sir. Please continue! As long as you can STFU this fake bismillah.

#134 rf: i see your brave attempt at civilized speech was short lived. but keep trying..if at first you dont succeed, try, try again...

PS: and i see that you refuse to believe that someone can be driven not by narrow-minded ethnic loyalties but by the broader interests of a peaceful, progressive, democratic Pakistan. That is fine with me. it just makes it pointless to carry on any interaction on chowk - since I consider chowk interactions to be a form of communication among people, not ammunition that you fire at one another. so you decide if you want to have a friendly interaction, or you want to continue throw unprovoked but hollow "word-brickbats" at me.

Good day to all. Today brings more New Year cheer to Chowkies

Another nail in the coffin of the corpse of Pakistan:

Army 'flees second Pakistan fort' (BBC)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/-/1/hi/world/south_asia/7193281.stm

What' s up, Fuzair and Tahmed32? I see you refer to these nasties as 'terrorists'! Whoa! What's going on? Aren't these the same fellas you used to call 'freedom fighters' in days past?

Also, Tahmed32, weren't you caught gloating about Paki military prowess and how the nukes can flatten Delhi and all? Gloat all you want, my friend!

I knew that it will bite you in your rear end, and it has!

#135 zeemax: are you trying to stop my right to free speech on chowk too? :-)

rf #133 I am glad to see myself reclassified from a bad person to "dear". I hope we can continue this tone, even when we differ.

Your point about p. elahi is reasonable, I will grant you. He is as much in it for himself as musharraf is, and therefore just as guilty of neglect. Nevertheless, he remains small fry like the rest of Musharraf's minions, and the buck stops with Musharraf.

As for sikh and hindu temples - i beg to disagree there. The fact is that the sikh gurdwara - visited for decades by sikh pilgrims from india - is alive and well in the heart of Lahore. While no doubt there are other temples in decay - but there has been no wilful destruction of temples (with the brief and shameful exception of the post-Babri mosque destruction of temples) in Pakistan anymore than there has been in India (where, e.g., my brother saw the muslim mosque in the now all-Sikh ancestral village of ours still standing, albeit in the same level of neglect as many hindu temples in Pakistan).

Keeping in line with tahmed32 rich tradition of posting irrelevant articles, this may be of interest.......

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4182151.stm

{Pakista n risks new battlefront

.....And it is these people who have decided to take on what they call "Punjabi domination". The army is generally seen as a Punjabi-dominated institution in Pakistan's smaller provinces.

Way back in the mid-1970s, an armed uprising in Balochistan was brutally quelled by the army with help from the Iranian military. Some 30 years later, many fear that the province seems poised to repeat its past.}

#132 Posted by tahmed32,

I was just talking about celebrating Lahore. You can spare the speech :)

Re: # 132

{and now that NS is standing up for Pakistan, I support him on it.}

Cut the crap old man, we all know your underlying generosity to these thugs lies in your Punjabi chauvinism.

Re: # 129

Dear tahmed32,

It seems Musharraf is also responsible for the forced migration of non-Muslims from Lahore? By the way, Ex-Chief Minister of Punjab Chaudhry Pervaiz Elahi, comes from the proud state of Gujrat. Had you any sense, fairness and objectivity you would have not jumped to this irrational conclusion.

{From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Before partition of India in 1947, Lahore was a cosmopolitan city with Hindu, Sikh and Jain residents. There were many temples in Lahore.

In 1941, 36% of the population of Lahore was Hindu, Sikh or Jain[1]. A few hundred Hindus are still reported to be living in Lahore.

None of the temples in Lahore are now in worship.}

#131 zeemax: ..and that merely proves I am an equal opportunity observer and not driven by ideology of any kind. :-)

ZAB messed the Pakistan economy by nationalizing it, and Sharif Bros were trying to mess up the political structure the way Musharraf has done. And I was - and remain - right in critizing them for it. and now that NS is standing up for Pakistan, I support him on it.

#129 Posted by tahmed32,

You cry rivers about Lahore (even though your pessimism is misplaced) and still abuse the two people who celebrated Lahore as no one did since the Raj. ZAB and Sharif Brothers.

urstruly: you say Sindhis have always been ruled by feudals, and that justifies their being ruled by mqm (which, btw, is a criminal party with murderers of May 14 roaming free, and thus not in the same league as any political party even a feudal one).

Spoken like a true fascist - a fascist is a fascist, whether he is a religious fascist or an ethnic one.

Another article - this one providing clear indication of musharraf's ethnic bent of mind (and why mqm-ites are falling over one another to abuse anyone who dares challenge his illegal rule on chowk and to demonstrate their spite against Pakistanis who dont happen to be "urdu-speaking"):

Here in the city of Kim, Pakistan's magnificent history is being left to rot
Simon Jenkins in Lahore
Friday January 11, 2008
The Guardian

Excerpts:

Musharraf has allowed one of the wonders of Asia to disintegrate...Poor Lahore. Yesterday this jewelled city of the Raj was hit by a suicide bomber...While the historic cities of Pakistan's great rival, India, soar up the league table of celebrity, nothing better displays Pakistan's current misery than the state of Lahore, joint capital of many an Indian empire and of British Punjab. Splendid Victorian palaces still line the boulevards of the Mall: the high court, the governor's house, the general post office, the government college and Lahore's museum, Kim's "Wonder House"...In no other world city have I seen so much magnificence so neglected...Limited preservation is being done on Lahore fort and Shah Jahan's exquisite Shalimar Garden in the suburbs. ...Yesterday's blast at the high court followed persistent attempts by the government to demolish the building, despite its handsome moulded brick walls and terracotta, marble and teak inside. The authorities also tried to demolish old Tollington market on the Mall. Looking like an East Anglian railway station, it was saved by public outcry and is now a thriving art centre.

Such carelessness is not for want of help. The World Bank offered $10m to restore the old city, which the authorities used to pay for drains. A so-called Sustainable Development Walled City project has hired offices and bureaucrats, but seems to have lost the will to conserve anything. Nobody is trying to stop a hotel company from buying up a street of havelis and demolishing them - houses that in Marrakech would be worth millions and might one day be so in Lahore. There is no protection for these structures, and if there were a well-placed bribe would negate it....

Pakistan used to pride itself on its cities being cleaner and more modern than India's. This is no longer so. While Islamabad seeks to create a past for itself, Lahore's past is collapsing around it...
The reason is rule by distant dictator. Some dictators take pride in their past, eager to make their mark on the nation's narrative. This was true of the Shah of Persia and even of Saddam Hussein. It is sad that present-day Pakistan, once a prized province of India's Mauryan, Mughal and British empires, should not only have cut itself off from that narrative but find itself at the mercy of an insecure and philistine soldier, for 10 years the puppet of London and Washington.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,,2239021,00.htm l

The fact of the matter is that MQM is a relatively new feudal party among the 200+ existing ones in Pakistan. I think sindhis have to just suck this fact up now. And I don't understand what difference does this make to an ordinary sindhi anyway. They have been living under one feudal lord or the other since eons until to this day. and they want to continue living as such for the next forseeable future. So why not one more. There is an urdu proverb for that too, which is, jaisa munh waisi chupair".

Re: # 103 Salim Chauhan:

Did you say?,"... If you PPP goons don't change your murderous, destructive, and hateful ways, you may soon see a big billboard on the Super Highway and National Highway - SINDHI NA KHAPAN...."

I never reallized fires of ethnic rivalries can be fanned to such an extent and so easily that Pakistan will fall apart if stability is not restored by SOMEONE and if all Pakistanis do not HUG each other.

If not there will only by national self mutilation! This is a disaster recipe! Then the whole region in and also around Pakistan will be destabilized.

Kamath

I think this article written by the Indian editor of India Express is a must-read, particularly by members of the "dirty tricks brigade" and other supporters of military rule in Pakistan.

Moral of the story: Democracy wins, dictatorship loses.

Extracts:
Junta versus Janata
BY SHEKHAR GUPTA
Khaleej Times, 9 January 2008

...an almighty (lately, former) general who has the power to declare and suspend emergency in televised speeches, the power to make 36 (or thereabouts) amendments in his “constitution� at a Press conference, and whose ability to take the biggest decisions on the spot is the envy, often, of the Indian politician, and has been a cause for admiration among India's chattering classes.

...And then came Shaukat Aziz, on secondment from Citibank. So smart, articulate, in his smartly cut suits, blah, blah and blah. And what kind of people did we have holding the same job in India? Gowda, who slept in Parliament. Vajpayee, who never seems to answer any question. Gujral who only uttered diplomatic platitudes that meant nothing. And Narasimha Rao, who mostly pretended he had not even heard the question.

...How have the relative fortunes of the two competing kinds of leaderships and nations under their charge evolved over these seven years? Musharraf now looks bumbling and unconvincing, an international joke, a pitiable, forlorn figure, hated by his countrymen, distrusted by the world and mentioned dismissively even by Barack Obama. Shaukat Aziz has disappeared from the scene, even losing out to an ordinary mortal - coincidentally from India - for the top job in his alma mater, Citi. Their country is a mess, their own army, for the first time, is seeing its credibility, power, its pre-eminent position in Pakistan's society and power structure questioned. Its political class is decimated, its institutions fatally wounded. How do people as proud as the Pakistanis feel when their dictator offers to salvage his credibility by summoning the Scotland Yard to investigate the assassination of their most prominent political leader? Nobody believes their election commission's intentions, motives or judgment in postponing their election.

Vajpayee, on the other hand, sits at home, having lost power in an election, not in the pink of health, but satisfied at the way his country is moving. His successor, from the opposite side of the political fence, even comes to wish him on his birthday.

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticleNew.asp?section=opinion&xfile= data/opinion/2008/january/opinion_january35.xml

#124 Posted by ana,

There's a mad flagger here usually found on UP with the Mad Cow Disease.

Is there some reason why my post #117 got flagged? I was not calling anyone a "muttarwa", if it was, it would not have been in quotes. I guess some people are not intelligent enough to understand that I was quoting the pos(t)er who said that.

What I have said is nothing compared to what has come from some of your bloody keyboards. . . how pathetic.

#59 Posted by nasah on January 16, 2008 3:22:56 pm

'Benazir had all the good qualities of her illustrious father and none of his bad traits -- she was more educated more knowledgeable more sophisticated and more civil more courageous than her father -- she put the debased and deprived Muslim womanhood at the threshold of mainstream modernity. '

I agree 2 everyword u said but this is just one side of the whole story :(

This is an imperfect world but she made wrong assessment of the ground situation in Pakistan and wanted to be Pakistan's Hamid Karzai. Whereas the ultras made deep inroads into Pakistan and god knows when......(I want to leave it unsaid).

I watched all the debates and interviews she gave to westen media b4 she's in Pakistan. She was toeing the US line and u know the slogan of ultras in Pakistan:

Jo Amrika ka yaar hai, Pakistan ka gaddar hai (somtehing like that).

When she got US endorsement means she signed her own death warrant.

Beena Sarwar,

Good write-up.

As an Urdu Speaking Man, I believe that MQM is our only savior and that Sindi's the greatest threat to our existence in Pakistan - after the Sindis comes Punjabis (at least Punjabis are a bit more compactable with us).

HP,

""abey jab Jhanda laganay ka itna hi shouq tha tau maan behnoon ke izzat luta kar idhar kiyoon aa gaya!"

So what was your friend's response? It would be interesting to know.

However I understand the plan for Jinnahpur is well underway. Guess that should soothe Salim's feelings over the above remark to some extent I hope .. :)

By all estimates, there will be a fuel shortage by March, more troops will be needed to guard fuel supply. Pak troops are not doing well at the afghan borders, because unlike the people of karachi, the jihadis are armed. Troops should be moved to guard duties and the jihadis left to the NATO forces to deal with.

It is coming, do not discout the jaypradamus.

Shortly, there will be a political polarisation, pakistan will become a good two party state, like the US. There will be a PMP, pakistan military party, and PIP, pakistan islamic party.

Now most of teh peoples opinions are along these lines, some one has to come up and lead it.

I do hope that what xeemax has posted will come true, that there will be no elections in pakistan.

The need of the hour is more troops, the police and the FC have been proven to be incompetent. The troops are guarding the food trucks, they are manning the shops. The largest heist in pakistan, 140 million rupees was carried out by the private security guards. The common kidnappings are on the rise with no one arrested.

Having taken over electricity supply to the manufacture of pop corns and of course the civil service, the military has to displace the para military and the police. The FCs as evidenced in the latest slaughter at Sargoda , have been reduced to jihadic fodder.

Get rid of the elections, what is needed is more troops and lots of it. Long live mushy and his troops.

Hurricane: I would beg to differ here. There is no brotherly love between some of these brothers, but thank you for being positive here.

Viqar: If you can say that about the "muttarwas", then why not apply it to some of the Punjabis, Sindhis, Baluch and Pashtuns as well? Y'aani ke I am not buying the argument that mohajirs are not Pakistanis. That level of thinking simply does not work for me.

Khair, time to say good night. . .

Okay time to watch the cricket match again...

Flame the casbah works every time!

Re: # 113 Viqram saab,

you are mistaken. We lover our muttarwas. The main reason, cause the word muttarwas reminds us of muttar pulao, which every Pakistani loves...and just on that basis...we love our urdu speaking folks. Plus they brought a whole new flavor of culture and education with them.


wonderful stuff

#111 HP,
So, this is what has your lungi on a ghee-fed fire and ants crawling up your behind?

I repeat #94 here for your enjoyment - of course it was in response to your usurpation of "progressiveness" as a Sindhi trait:

HP #92 {"#83 Posted by viqarm
The first thing that stands out like a sore thumb in your post is that you don't know what progressive means. ...
Try this link to learn a bit about Progressiveness."}

HP,
It is both gutsy and funny when a person born out of wedlock goes around calling everyone in the world a "bastard." LOL

You are notorious as a supporter of Sindhi Vaderas, a cheerleader of PPP feudals, and one who applauds the murderous behavior and arsonist zeal of PPP workers, supporters, and goons in the recent carnage in Sindh. With such despicable credentials you are now going to preach to Urdu-speaking Mohajirs about "progressiveness."

Sindhis who deliberately keep their serfs or haris illiterate and destitute are progressive?

Sindhis who burn and loot, loot and burn, and commit rapes as sanctioned rapes are progressive?

Sindhis whose male illiteracy rate is only eclipsed by the formidable female illiteracy rate are progressive?

Sindhis who say "Urdu na khappey, Punjabi na Khapey, Pakistan na Khapey, Panahguzeer na Khapey" are patriotic, tolerant, and progressive?

Sindhis who used to place their daughters in the homes of Hindu Vaderas as collateral for loans were progressive?

Shame on you and your attempt to masquerade your racism as bigotry. :(

Re: # 105 Ana bibi,
You must have misunderstood. Punjabis, Sindhis, Baloch and Pathans are the only Pakistanis.

aap maTarvay laavarisoN ko iss mayN shaamil na karayN.

Ana #105,
HP is just trying to justify why Pakis should not be allowed to consume firewater - and he has succeeded. :)

#107 Posted by hurricane
I understand your concern. It was a response to #94 of the jester who can't think before he writes.

I agree people suffered during the partition and no one should make fun of their sufferings. However, letting that jester go un-responded does not work for me.

#106 HP {"I know. In Indiana, they used to have signs that nigger must not enter this area."}

HP,
So they stopped you from entering Indiana. Did you even consider that it was your anti-Indian bigotry rather than your black skin that was your problem?

Re: # 105 ana

it is all brotherly love. Sometimes, one brother kicks the other borther's ass for being a jackass...afterwards, all is good again :)

#104 HP {"Check with him first. I only found that out when I read his books!"}

HP,
Sorry to inform you, but Murdoodi is dead. Also, your reading his books explains a hell of a lot about you.

HP,

maudodi was an ass. He probably lutwaad his own asmat...and it was a horrible thing to say...

but dude, take it from me, a lot of families were completely devestated. It was a holocaust. A naqbah. The pain is still there. Why wouldn't it? If all of a sudden your entire family has been reduced to just a single branch of the family tree...

your family probably did not suffer as a lot of the punjabi and urdu speaking families did. However, I would appeal to you, please be human about this.

#103 Posted by Salim_Chauhan
"you may soon see a big billboard on the Super Highway and National Highway - SINDHI NA KHAPAN."

I know. In Indiana, they used to have signs that nigger must not enter this area. Racism runs deep in you veins.

Wow forget the "Injuns bashing Pakis" here. YahaaN tau Pakistanis are bashing Pakistanis. Good grief guys, aagay baRhnay ki tau koi gunjaish hi nahiN. . .

#102 Posted by Salim_Chauhan
So you think your post #94 Posted by Salim_Chauhan was some words written in all humility?

#100 Posted by hurricane

Did maulvi moododi not write in his book that Hum( meaning Mohajir) Izzatain aur Asmatain luta kar Pakistan aiya hain?

Check with him first. I only found that out when I read his books!

{"Sindhi never say Panahgir na khapan, they say makkar na Khapan. Were you ten years old when you left Karachi?"}

HP,
I was trying not to advertize Sindhi racism. Call us what you want Makkar, Muttarwa, Panahgir, or BB Kush, we ain't goin away nowhere notime soon. You got that? If you PPP goons don't change your murderous, destructive, and hateful ways, you may soon see a big billboard on the Super Highway and National Highway - SINDHI NA KHAPAN.

HP,
Now you have descended into offensive nonsense. Yaar, daroo peena he to don't go for the cheap stuff. It not only intoxicates you it also degrades your mentality.

HP #91 {""abey jab Jhanda laganay ka itna hi shouq tha tau maan behnoon ke izzat luta kar idhar kiyoon aa gaya!"}

HP,
Thank you for your kind comment. Obviously you are not related to the wonderful Sindhi hosts who ostensibly, as you claimed, welcomed Mohajirs arriving naked, destitute, hungry, and barefoot at Khokrapar or Lahore. Is it possible that you too are a bastard child of JLN like ZAB was? LOL

Re: # 99

HP,

"Fact"? That the leaders bungled up this whole thing and entire generations in families were wiped out...you think that is something to make fun of?

You are a sick twisted f$&K

#96 Posted by hurricane

Yeah! you are right. Sometimes facts are offensive. That is the nature of the beast.

Re: # 93 Natives always want find smallest common denominater ( Dumb down everybody)

"Sindhis who say "Urdu na khappey, Punjabi na Khapey, Pakistan na Khapey, Panahguzeer na Khapey" are patriotic, tolerant, and progressive?"

The word is Panahgir not Panahguzir! After teaching you urdu, I might end up teaching you Sindhi too.

Sindhi never say Panahgir na khapan, they say makkar na Khapan. Were you ten years old when you left Karachi?

Did I say sindhis are progressive? It was Viqar who thought Mojos are Progressive.

HP,

I once asked him, "abey jab Jhanda laganay ka itna hi shouq tha tau maan behnoon ke izzat luta kar idhar kiyoon aa gaya!"( He was a great guy though. Some day I will write his story!)


This is extremely offensive. You are belitteling the entire holocaust of partition.

#91 Posted by Salim_Chauhan
"How can you even say that anyone gave Mohajirs shelter when they needed it most. Many Mohajirs were government servants and military officers who opted for Pakistan."

You obviously think only a few thousand crossed border in 1947. Numbers are clearly not your forte. Remember all the poor folks from Ajmer, Agra and Pelibhet? How many were government servants? The choti line in Khokrapar is filled with stories of poor bhokay and nangay who landed in Sindh via Khokrapar. They were the people who needed help not the ones who started counting rishwat as soon as they crossed the borders. In Delhi, hindu was giving them very little rishwat, In Pakistan Inhoonay ganga hi utli baha di rishwat main!

In fact choroon ko lag gaya moore in Karacchi!

"Pakistan was ostensibly sold to the Brits, Injuns, and everyone else as a homeland for INDIAN MUSLIMS. "

Heheheh...You are a court jester par excellence! If it was for Indian Mulsims, then why did you not get it in Delhi?

I remember a guy from Agra who used to say that he would someday fly Pakistani Flag on the Red fort after getting drunk on Katchi.

I once asked him, "abey jab Jhanda laganay ka itna hi shouq tha tau maan behnoon ke izzat luta kar idhar kiyoon aa gaya!"( He was a great guy though. Some day I will write his story!)

HP #92 {"#83 Posted by viqarm
The first thing that stands out like a sore thumb in your post is that you don't know what progressive means. ...
Try this link to learn a bit about Progressiveness."}

HP,
It is both gutsy and funny when a person born out of wedlock goes around calling everyone in the world a "bastard." LOL

You are notorious as a supporter of Sindhi Vaderas, a cheerleader of PPP feudals, and one who applauds the murderous behavior and arsonist zeal of PPP workers, supporters, and goons in the recent carnage in Sindh. With such despicable credentials you are now going to preach to Urdu-speaking Mohajirs about "progressiveness."

Sindhis who deliberately keep their serfs or haris illiterate and destitute are progressive?

Sindhis who burn and loot, loot and burn, and commit rapes as sanctioned rapes are progressive?

Sindhis whose male illiteracy rate is only eclipsed by the formidable female illiteracy rate are progressive?

Sindhis who say "Urdu na khappey, Punjabi na Khapey, Pakistan na Khapey, Panahguzeer na Khapey" are patriotic, tolerant, and progressive?

Sindhis who used to place their daughters in the homes of Hindu Vaderas as collateral for loans were progressive?

Shame on you and your attempt to masquerade your racism as bigotry. :(

Re: # 92

... And the one thing that stands out about you from your posts, is the tatal absence of the numerator.

#83 Posted by viqarm

The first thing that stands out like a sore thumb in your post is that you don't know what progressive means. I understand ignorance is bliss for some folks but this much ignorance borders on blindness. Ignorance is bliss because if you don't know something, it can't hurt you.

Try this link to learn a bit about Progressiveness.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressivism

And then tell me how many of those luminaries that we can count on fingers, actually did any thing progressive.

You want me to compare leaders? With whom? Atlaf?

Signing PCO and not signing it, is a personal choice. If your conscience does not agree with some thing, you don't do it. That does not make any one progressive. Lots of Conservatives do similar things. In reality all those people that you mentioned are political conservative.

“It is the latter's legacy only that JI is internally democratic and still has some semblance of principles left.�

The JI is internally democratic because they have elections in closed door meetings with only one approved candidate per post by the majalis shoora? I think urstruly’s influence is catchy! When was the last time someone opposed Kazi in JI “internal democracy�?

The Halis and the Syeds of the bygone era were great people but were really promoting the colonialist cause.

How many Edhis the natives have produced? Have you ever looked at the names on the buildings on schools, colleges and other institutions? How many of them carry Edhi name? I am certainly not discounting Edhi’s work. Could he have done the same type of work in 1890? Like many other things, the nature of the social work has changed over the years

In the old days they used to pay for schools and colleges and now they pay for ambulances to carry the bodies found in the Gunny bags. How many natives are involved in the Gunny bag transactions?

HP #75 {"They left India as Muslims, ended up in Bengal as Bihari and now want to leave Bangladesh as Bihari. Well Bangladesh is a majority Muslim country why not stay there. Did you not come to Bengal as Muslim?

They came to Sindh as Muslims but turned themselves in to Mohajir because they never liked the Sindhi Muslims as their equal. ...Pakistan is a country of Pathan, Sindhi, Baloch and Punjabis and other people who live there and associate themselves with the land. ...But we have a group of people that is bent upon destroying not only the province they live in, but the country that gave them shelter when they needed it the most."}

HP Sain,
Before you get lost in your own grand epic history of human migrations, please relax and consider some sobering facts. Pakistan was neither requested nor created in the name of Pathans, Sindhis, Baluchis, and Punjabis (you forgot to mention Bengalis and Assamese). Pakistan was ostensibly sold to the Brits, Injuns, and everyone else as a homeland for INDIAN MUSLIMS.

The people who came over to Pakistan were not begging to be accepted as Sindhis or Benglis. They expected to come as Pakistanis - forgetting and forsaking all the titles, honorifics, and distinctions that they used to have in India. No wonder they all call themselves MOHAJIRS today - one identity, one language, one people, many origins.

The so-called "stranded Pakistanis" that you denigrate as "Biharis" were Pakistanis and still call themselves Pakistanis and want to be repatriated to Pakistan - a country to which they showed more loyalty and for which they shed more blood than all the Pakhtuns, Baluchis, and Sindhis put together. Yes, only the Punjabis may have sacrificed more lives for Pakistan than these "Biharis."

How can you even say that anyone gave Mohajirs shelter when they needed it most. Many Mohajirs were government servants and military officers who opted for Pakistan. Their risky commitment to Pakistan negated Nehru's accurate assessment that Pakistan would come begging back to India because of the departure of educated, competent, and skilled Hindu and Sikh bureaucrats. If the Pisser-e-Zameen were all that hospitable, why were there sprawling shanty towns in Karachi and Hyderabad for many many years after partition. Mohajirs, with college degrees and pictures of mansions they left behind in India, lived in miserable conditions but never lost their patriotism - until Bhutto started his pogroms against them in the early '70s.

Please refer to Kaal Chakra's excellent refutation of similar nonsense raised by your bigoted and racist Pisser-e-Zameen colleagues - including Fuzair Sahib and Aquaris (sic).

[Janoo,
Now I am not afraid if FOX-TV is ever banned! You, outdo them in every category ranging from asinine to zero-intelligence. :)]

Salim Chauhan,
They say sikhs and pathans are famous for their brains or rather lack of it. Chauhan, a sikh surname seems to have made that effect on your comprehension level rather lack of it. Please read my two bit again and again till you understand what I am saying.It is called SARCASM.

Re: # 85 Salim cigim:

I am honored to stand up for the dignity of those still vilified as mohajirs in Pakistan today.

Even of I speak this with sorrow; not with any relish. God(SWT) Knows that I, presonally, have never wanted to be called mohajir even for a day.

And MQM and its politics, I could never defend.

"sukoot aamoz tul-e daastan-e dard hae, varna
zabaaN bhi hae hamary muNh mayN aur taab-e suKhan bhi hae"

Re: # 78 MQM are very bad people as all retarts say is fine.
There are punjabis ( generally act and then think), sindhi( who are whining specialists) are fine people but there were no "pakistanis" so Mohajirs were ordered from Hindustan. Mohajirs only pakistanis all others are first sindhis or punjabis and last pakistanis.
MOHAJIRS were needed or essential in pakistan absolutely, as all failures of these natives can be blamed on "Urdu speaking Dark uglies" and retards can go scotfree. Everyman needs to marry as then he can blame on wife all his problems. Everybody needs some thing to hate and blame so all exploited natives are welcomed to become guests of mohajirs and please abuse so you will feel better and free.
Racists and impotent cry babies.I wonder if Mohajirs are so damaging them why not officially expell them to their own areas of urban Sindh and all go to backwaters annd enjoy rural social and economic justice of great nativist ehical paradise in backwaters of Sindh .JUst pure Jelousy, hate and greed combined with shear stupidity. Lean form this bad people. Why they all are allowed play open recist card ?
Good day .

#79 HP {"Yeps, we know how any fascist would respond!
Mir Jaffars!"}

HP,
Please don't tell us that you are now going to mislead us in Indian history just as you misled us about Indian geography. LOL

The worst thing for Sindhi education standards was Sindh's detachment from Bombay. :)

#80 HP {Yeah! that was a mistake..12th May was the worst! "}

HP Sain,
...and with that irrational and inaccurate statement of yours, I refer you to my "one size fits all" response to Janoo in #73.

nasah #81 {"what a formidable political coalition it could have been."}

Nasha,
Almost right. Infact, MQM made one of its first alliances with PPP in 1988. Too bad the paindoo and sindhoo logic took over the feudals and they didn't want to share even one ray of sunshine with their "allies." So now you want us to for a formidable coalition with our murderers. Perhaps you noticed that most of the victims of the fiery inferno and murderous rage of the PPP goons were Urdu-speaking Mohajirs. No thanks - PPP Na Khapey.

Viqarm #83 {"Sixty years later, Ayub JKhan, ZAB, Zia, BB and loha chore is the best that this beghairat lot has to offer today. Are these the luminaries you are expecting an egalitarian people to follow who actually believe in educating their women and, God Forbid, giving them their due share of inheritance?

If fuedalism, karo kari, robberies and gang rapes is your idea of being progressive, then May God(SWT) Save us ALL from being progressive ... EVER. "}

Viqar Sahib,
Brilliant response to a bigot who is masquerading as a racist. :)
You know, my friend, if this HP were not a fellow Paki, Pisser-e-Zameen that he is, I would be laughing at the way you made a mockery of his asinine statements. This guy runs with his mouth and tries the old bulldozer technique of debating. Sometimes, people take his nonsense seriously and actually verify his stupid "facts." Remember when he was caught short in his knowledge about the geography of North India? Thanks.

Re: # 76 HP
"So mahijir are progressive now...Since when communalism became Progressive..."

Indian muslims were progressive long behore those in Sindh learnt how to spell the word. So your question is better asked in reverse. And the answer is that they still have ways to go.

Justice Wajihuddin did not sign the PCO even when Justice Iftikhar Chaudhry did, prefering to go home instead. So did Justice Saeed Siddiqui. Both othem, along with Justice Fakhruddin Ibrahim are at the forefront of the struggle for the independence of judiciary in Pakistan even today.

How many Edhis have the natives produced? I am having difficulty counting.

If the leaders and visionaries were a dime a dozen amongst the native races in Pakistan, we wouldn't find Hali hanging by the coattails of Syed Ahmed Khan, and Iqbal to those of MAJ for political leadership and to Maudoodi's for the Islamic. It is the latter's legacy only that JI is internally democratic and still has some semblance of principles left. Could you say the same for Maulana Diesel who prefers, instead, to talk out of both sides of his mouth?

Sixty years later, Ayub JKhan, ZAB, Zia, BB and loha chore is the best that this beghairat lot has to offer today. Are these the luminaries you are expecting an egalitarian people to follow who actually believe in educating their women and, God Forbid, giving them their due share of inheritance?

If fuedalism, karo kari, robberies and gang rapes is your idea of being progressive, then May God(SWT) Save us ALL from being progressive ... EVER.

Re: # 71

meray bhai mittar ji -- zarranawazi -- adaab -- the word is mukarrar mukarrar -- so for your mukarrar -- dobara arz kiya:

Bhaaga hooN Hind say mugger Hindi naheeN hooN maiN
ruhtaa hooN Sindh meiN mugger Sindhi naheeN hooN maiN

sometimes it feels like that in the United States as well -- don't know about Canada.

Re: # 72
"One represents the urban centers and the latter is clearly the mouthpiece of the landed blue-bloods."(Salim)

almost a great political sentence after trimming the excess verbosity -- "One represents the urban centers and the latter is clearly" -- RURAL -- where actual Pakistan or for that matter actual India lives.

what a formidable political coalition it could have been.

"I can't believe that you are sincerely and rationally equating the violence of May 12 to the carnage, inferno, and mass destruction following BB's assassination!"

Yeah! that was a mistake..12th May was the worst!

"Time to bring all you morons back to the reservation."

Yeps, we know how any fascist would respond!

Mir Jaffars!

#77 HP {"How many MQM workers were arrested after the 12th May? Even the ones whose pictures were clear despite the darkness, still roam the Karachi streets."}

HP,
I can't believe that you are sincerely and rationally equating the violence of May 12 to the carnage, inferno, and mass destruction following BB's assassination! You are either very ethnically-motivated or perhaps a little blind when the Sumroos, Khuros, and other Sans Brains go on a marauding warpath. Time to bring all you morons back to the reservation.

" too many people witnessed the murderous, reckless, and devastating behavior of PPP workers, supporters, and goons in systematically destroying property and burning innocent people."

How many MQM workers were arrested after the 12th May? Even the ones whose pictures were clear despite the darkness, still roam the Karachi streets.

Viqarm #63 {"MQM's place is more with the progressive parties in Sindh; not with the feudals that is the PPP."}

So mahijir are progressive now...Since when communalism became Progressive... Modi must now be really happy...He got company in Karachi. heheheh...

There are many instances in history when groups of people decided to leave their homeland and ended up never owning a land. The Jews of Egypt left their land en masse to stave off the oppression they faced. Their 2500 years of travels have shown that the land they hated was the only land they could have lived in. The face of the world would have been different now if the Jews had stayed in Egypt and had fought their oppressors right there.

The gypsies of Romania were primarily Indians who left their country and are still gypsy in a land, where they have lived in for thousands of years. The Gypsies when they are kicked out from other European countries, like from Italy recently, still go back to Romania but their connection to Romania are so weak that even Romanians don’t want them.

The Afghans left mountains to conquer India and ended up living in India and their progenies still have difficulty calling themselves Indian. But they can never go back to Afghanistan because they are not Afghans any more.

The Mohajir in Pakistan left their land for the flimsiest of reasons. And they refuse to become the part of the land which welcomed them. Like the Jews, they can’t find any association with the land they live in now. They feel they are better than the natives so they deserve to be the masters of the native. To them the native culture and customs are not worth respecting.

They left India as Muslims, ended up in Bengal as Bihari and now want to leave Bangladesh as Bihari. Well Bangladesh is a majority Muslim country why not stay there. Did you not come to Bengal as Muslim?

They came to Sindh as Muslims but turned themselves in to Mohajir because they never liked the Sindhi Muslims as their equal. In 1980s they got some heat from the federal government for their illegal and communal activities and what they do in response, they go against Pakistan. After being co-opted back into the power what they do, they stand with an army that is bent upon keeping the reins firmly against the wishes of the majority of the people of Pakistan. And the mohajir…are now an accessory in destroying the fabric of the same country they landed in as Muslims.

Pakistan is a country of Pathan, Sindhi, Baloch and Punjabis and other people who live there and associate themselves with the land. The Pathans live in Baluchistan, the Hazarwal live in NWFP, and the Saraiki live in Punjab, they do ask for their political and linguistic rights but they never go against the country or even the Province they live in.

But we have a group of people that is bent upon destroying not only the province they live in, but the country that gave them shelter when they needed it the most.

Once you betray your land and your culture, betrayal becomes a habit …And that is what we see in play in Sindh and Pakistan.

Flame the Casbah!

Re: # 65 Muhammad Hamid wrote: ["... it is the same ww-ii stuff the british left behind and i was running around in thirty yars ago ....... the billions of dollars are used to buy staff cars and new curtains for the mess, not radio communications ...."]

What you assert may very well be true, but the military's "agencies" are not as thoroughly incompetent as I would have thought. I say this because of a recent anecdote.

A couple of weeks back I attended the jinaza in F-6. The deceased was the father of an acquaintance. He'd died unexpectedly while the son (my acquaintance) was out of the country. At the jinaza the son was absent. I asked a mutual friend who told me that the son was flying back the next day, but the story was an interesting one.

The son had gone abroad without telling his family where he was going. Since he travels a lot within the country, mostly in the far reaches of NWFP and Baluchistan, his family is used to his being away a lot. However, this time he wasn't on official business, but had (secreatly) sneaked off to the Far East with his mistress, while his wife was on Hajj with her brothers. So when the father died suddenly, his brother contacted this gentleman's office and asked them about his whereabouts. The office was under instructions not to reveal any details, however, they did tell the brother that their boss was "out of the country."
Armed with only this piece of information the brother called a friend of this gentleman who is a high up in one of the "agencies" ... By the end of the day the agency friend had not only discovered what country the gentleman and his girlfriend had gone to and on which flights etc., but had also contacted his operative in that country and found out what local flights he (and his mistress) had taken to reach their holiday destination and what hotel they were in with phone numbers and all. The gentleman was thus called and informed of his father's passing away.

This story, later authenticated by others close to the family, left me wondering how our agencies have surplus resources that can be squandered on such trivial private matters. So rest assured that not ALL of the billions of dollars are spent on curtains and cars.

...SR

Janoo #56, {"Mohajirs continued to harm the interests of Bengalees, Punjabis, Pathans, Balochis and other sons of soil by ruling over them like the imperialist British. MQm is a fascist party threatening to kill anyone who opposes them."}

Janoo,
Now I am not afraid if FOX-TV is ever banned! You, outdo them in every category ranging from asinine to zero-intelligence. :)

Viqarm #63 {"MQM's place is more with the progressive parties in Sindh; not with the feudals that is the PPP."}

Viqar Sahib,
Excellent response. Why is it that desperate warriors against terrorism simply assume that they can perform a shotgun wedding between MQM and PPP simply because both tend to be secular? One represents the urban centers and the latter is clearly the mouthpiece of the landed blue-bloods.

nasah#61:

Muqarrar, muqarrar! (or is it mukarrar, mukarrar?)

{" Already stunned at the loss of their leader, the PPP is now reeling from the registration of tens of thousands of FIRs against its workers. Its electoral candidates face charges that include attempted murder"}

Beena,
You raise some excellent points about the "dirty tricks" brigade. But, dear writer, too many people witnessed the murderous, reckless, and devastating behavior of PPP workers, supporters, and goons in systematically destroying property and burning innocent people. If this party behaves in such a lunatic fashion when it is being oppressed, I can just imagine its behavior when it becomes the oppressor - once again. No thank you, PPP na khapey. :(

Beena,

unfortunately the dirty tricks have just started.

But BB's murder is still very difficult to accept.

Ras

hamidm: even my mother-in-law's maali has a cell phone which he uses to talk to saudi arabia. every tom, dick and harry in Pakistan has a cell phone.

hamidm #65 I have a life outside chowk. I do!! I do!! I type fast, that's all.

fuzair #48 What is incredible is that this is not the first time - it is a repeat of Swat where militants were actually able to overrun police posts.

Something is very wrong somewhere - maybe it is the obvious fact that the military is overstretched in the wrong directions (keeping tabs on threats to Musharraf's job rather than on threats to the national integrity, per the subject of this article). or maybe there is something else going on.

Re: # 64

tahmed,

.......it seems you have too much time on your hands ... why do paki men squat and pee like women ? ....... that, i think, is the bigger question .........

... 'in this day and age of radio communications and gunships' ..... you must be kiddng! ..... have you seen the pithoo and helmets the fc guys are wearing (in addition to their hand-stitched peshawari chappals) ?...... it is the same ww-ii stuff the british left behind and i was running around in thirty yars ago ....... the billions of dollars are used to buy staff cars and new curtains for the mess, not radio communications ......... the only person who has radio communications is maulana fazlullah, aka maulana radio ..........

GT #44 No doubt the soldiers put up a fight. The question I had was why, in this day and age of radio communications and gunships, did they even have to put up a fight (let alone lose their lives in the process). See also Fuzair #48 on this.

On the other question of inner party democracy - it would be instructive to see how it was introduced in the US. As far as I recall reading, it was due to the passage of laws following massive corruption scandals in New York (the Tammany Hall politics I referred to earlier).

Re: # 62 Nash
MQM's place is more with the progressive parties in Sindh; not with the feudals that is the PPP.

MQM place is with PPP -- not against PPP. Period.

MQM:

"Bhagaa hooN Hind say mugger Hindi naheeN hoon maiN
ruhta hooN Sindh meiN mugger Sindhi naheeN hooN maiN"

Than what are you?

#20

and by the way half of my maternal family lives in Karachi as the self-isolated nonthing-to-do-with-the-Sindhis 'mohajereens' -- like a party of detached 'Sufis' called MQM -- "ruhta hooN Sindh meiN mugger Sindhi naheeN hooN maiN".

Re: # 20

Dear Skeptical -- 'male chauvinist pig' is just a generic name for misogyny -- it does not connote pig in its literal sense -- it is a form of word alliteration -- sorry if you took it literally -- my only hope is that you are not part of the deliberate demonizing of Benazir on Chowk -- making people believe sacrificing her life had no meaning.

Benazir had all the good qualities of her illustrious father and none of his bad traits -- she was more educated more knowledgeable more sophisticated and more civil more courageous than her father -- she put the debased and deprived Muslim womanhood at the threshold of mainstream modernity.

HP:
yea. be careful with using that f word next time.

#51 Posted by Urstruly on January 16, 2008 12:06:01 pm


Most of the PAF with their F-16s


hey..it's not like they're going to be liberating kashmir or anything...

The PAF's new F-16s come with really interesting restrictions that pretty much only allow it to bomb pakis in pakiland..

Let me put my two cents. Pakistan was created by mohajirs, which was actually a huge mistake, as is apparent from the grievances of all the original residents of what is Pakistan now.Mohajirs continued to harm the interests of Bengalees, Punjabis, Pathans, Balochis and other sons of soil by ruling over them like the imperialist British. MQm is a fascist party threatening to kill anyone who opposes them. Musharraf the Mohajir general is doing his best to undo Pakistan, so that the old statusquo is retained and all the Punjabees, all the bangalees, all the Pathans, all the sindhis can get back to ruling their great country as they were doing till 1947. Rahe naam allah ka.

Re: # 36 rf786
"Majority of Mohajirs empathize with the Bhuttos ..."

I hope you are speaking for yourself and Ras ...

Re: # 35
"Btw, the mohajir opinion counts for schitt in this issue. Their political views don’t coincide with the majority of the country as mostly mohajir believe in fascism. as they favor a party that is fascist is nature".

This exactly why they became fascists. They finally understood that their opinion counts for shit, and that one has to be a shithead to deal with shitheads; of which there is no shortage anywhere in the native peoples of Pakistan.

Re: # 32 Urstruly
"yes the better solution is to express your disgust with this whole masquerade that a corrupt, vicious, and pro-western ruling elite puts on. Tell them that what you do is unacceptable. Boycott them. Spread the awareness to your fellow citizens. Refuse to be a part of their exploiting games. No compromises".

If you include the fanatics who keep on blowing up and killing indiscriminately, the I agree with the enirety of what you have written above.

Do you?

#50 Posted by Raw_Dust

“you can wiggle out from your Operation Searchlight implying hideous metaphor for Qasbah�

See your racist, communal and fascist mind can only think about murders and mayhem. The Keyword was Flame. Now try and figure out who got flamed here.

Re: # 48

Havn't you heard that PAF is deployed to protect the supply lines and could not be spared to protect the fort in waziristan. Most of the PAF with their F-16s and JFs is busy keeping an eye on the wheat supply from government warehouses to flour mills and from there to utility stores.

HP:
you can wiggle out from your Operation Searchlight implying hideous metaphor for Qasbah Colony. Tell rf786, you were being cute by dropping a The Clash reference.

Raw,

I really do not know much, except what I read in the newspaper. In particular, I do not know for sure that it is a "show". It could well be. But I BELIEVE that what is happening in Pakistan is more than some "show", "deliberate conspiracy" etc. Of course, I could be very wrong.

What upsets me though is the perceived weakening of the lawyers'/students' movement.

Re: #39 Tahmed,

I agree. It is unconscionable that the assault lasted for 6 hours without any air support being sent. Whether helicopter gunships or A5 (or whatever the PAF is using now), 6 hours is more than enough time to send several sorties to blast the terrorists. In fact, it would be a heaven sent opportunity for the Govt since the terrorists would have to be concentrated in a small area and be fairly easy targets. In fact, it is precisely this sort of an opportunity that the commanders of govt troops in an insurgency situation pray for: the chance to catch the enemy out in the open in large numbers.

If it had been the US Army or Marines, the terrorist casualties would have been in the hundreds. Yeah, it does seem like the beginning of the end if this is the level of PA and PAF competence. If this sort of thing happens again, assuming the reports are accurate, the FC isn't going to fight like this much more. In fact, since they were broadcasting appeals for help, I'm surprised the USAF didn't come in and give support. Presumably they have some Pashto speakers there in Afghanistan!

#36 Posted by rf786

I did not vilify anyone! I just wrote the facts. Read #37 Posted by Raw_Dust to see how far these guys can go in their narrow-mindedness! Signs of fascism and racism when people from your community are talking about museums and relics for the people who are the real owners of the land!

Fascism is MQM culture.

“{Flame the kasbah!}

??? care to elaborate.�

Need I? if you can’t get that, then you can’t get anything!

GT:And in the process 20 odd died. This is a heck of a resistance. And it does not bode well for the terrorists.

What if the Military commanders at GHQ of those 20 odd soldiers let their Army Corps of Terrorists based in Wana, Waziristan recoup and have a go at the next 50 odd soldiers of Frontier Corps with the kind of resistance that's just irresistible.?

or are you just playing along cos it's like a great show. better than you find in Catch-22?

Re: # 43

tahmed32,

The day u stop spewing hatred against mohajirs, that will be the day u will find me conversing in a civilized manner. My experience with chauvinists such as u taught me a very important lesson. Hidden behind that facade of civility hides the ugly, arrogant, chauvinist who cannot tolerate diversity or be a man enough to take responsibility of their mistakes.

By the way, I havent even started with the insults.

#39 Posted by tahmed32:

Dear tahmed,

Do not always look at the glass half-empty. If you read the news carefully (and other accounts) you will note that around 50 odd soldiers defended the fort for around 4 to 6 hours against (as some reports claim) around 1000 attackers. And in the process 20 odd died. This is a heck of a resistance. And it does not bode well for the terrorists. Actually, if this fight gets to be as "real", it does not bode well for anybody! So finally you may be right about the glass being half empty.

Regarding intra-party democracy ... it is a difficult process to implement and will take time. Most parties in India - Congress, CPM, BSP, AIDMK etc. do not have intra-party democracy. Furthermore, it is not in the interest of present leadership to induce intra-party democracy (for obvious reasons). However, this does not mean that such heirarchies should not be challenged. They should ... by anyone and everyone.

Regards.

#41 rf: I told you I am not interested in exchanging insults with you. So I stopped reading your post after the first line. When you are able to write like a man, rather than a mqm ghoonda, then come talk to me.

#40 That puts JI ahead of all the remaining parties then. But by selecting a leader in a closed convention, JI remains short of the primaries of the kind the US is going through nowadays. Where candidates go from one state (or province or district, in case of another) to present themselves to the general public and engage in debates and respond to questions from the general public.

Having said that - like I said, the far bigger problem for Pakistan at this time is the restoration of democracy at the national level. But demands for inner party democracy should not be too far behind. Only then does power to appoint leaders go where it truly belongs - to the citizens. In the US, it took the excesses of Tammany Hall politics on NY in the 1920's I think to finally bring democracy within parties. India I think is still not anywhere further than JI I think.

Re: # 38

Dear self-righteous pomposity called tahmed32,

When was the last time u looked in the mirror? Reality checks can help improve one's perceptions, clear some delusions and may in some cases add to one's vocabulary. I always thought u suffered from a paucity of ideas thus the need to cling, but its becoming quite clear that u are nothing but a racist bigot, chauvinistic Punjabi with no morals or ideas.

It was your brilliant Punjabi bravado that led to the split of Pakistan, murder of ZA Bhutto, his daughter, son and thousands and thousands of other innocent Pakistanis who belonged to other ethnicities may that be Bengal, Sindh or Punjab.

Benazir was assassinated in Rawalpindi, GHQ, Punjab. Biggest beneficiary of her demise is a Punjabi (NS). People accused by BB included son of soils, Pervaiz Elahi, Hameed Gul. Do I need to say anything further. All evidence points towards another Punjabi murder of Sindhi leadership, and that is the truth.

Re: # 38 "the fact is that there is no other party that practices inner party democracy in Pakistan"

This is not true. Jamat-e-islami is the only party in Pakistan that choses its leader at a party convention every five year. The party leader is chosen for a five year term. A working committee that monitors his progress, may call vote for a recall. If recall is approved, the party convention choses the next leader.

Jamat-e-Islami is the only party that has deposed its founding leader on the basis of his performance in the elections (and poor health). Moulana Moududi was deposed because of poor party standing in the 1970 elections. Another of its leader, Mian Tufail was also deposed after serving three consecutive terms because party found him unable to lead party in a unipolar world order that was imminent at the end of Afghanistan-Soviet debacle.

I think Qazi's days are also numbered, because of Imran Khan fiasco, and a mutinous Punjab University group is threateneing the strict discipline, under his watch, that the party prides itself on.

...and while Musharraf is quick to break the heads of lawyers demanding the rule of law and puts away the Chief Justice for the crime of questioning Musharraf's self-given "right" to rule over Pakistan, the terrorists have grown from strength to strength during his eight years. To the point that an entire fort is over-run inside Pakistan...in this day and age of radio transmission and gunships that should have taken out the terrrorists before they came anywhere near to breaching the fort.

Pakistan Fort Overrun by Militants
By ISMAIL KHAN
Published: January 17, 2008
PESHAWAR, Pakistan — Hundreds of Islamic militants attacked a paramilitary fort in Sararogha in the restive South Waziristan tribal region in north-west Pakistan on Tuesday, killing 22 soldiers and taking several others hostage in a nearly six-hour-long battle...A last distress radio message was sent to another nearby fort, requesting artillery support as the militants blew up a part of the fort, broke through the defenses and began pouring inside, the officials said.....The militants abandoned the fort after the attack, the intelligence officials said, once they had seized arms and ammunition. “Nobody is there now�, one of the officials said.

According to eyewitnesses contacted by telephone, militants captured several soldiers and slaughtered many of them.

“The forts were well-stocked and soldiers had been told to fight till the last man, last bullet,� a local administration official said. “The soldiers did put up a good fight in a seemingly hopeless situation.�.


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/17/world/asia/17pakistan.html?hp

HP: While no doubt it would have been much better if PPP had had inner party elections rather than simply passing the party leadership to Bhutto's next of kin, the fact is that there is no other party that practices inner party democracy in Pakistan either. So why this "special standard" for PPP in this article?

While lack of inner party democracy is a definite shortcoming in Pakistan politics, it pales before the far bigger problem of a lack of democracy altogether at the national level. Indeed, not only has Musharraf been ruling Pakistan by abusing his military power, he has made a mockery of the election process also and destroyed the Supreme Court as well. Had it not been for the thousands of brave Pakistanis who stood up for the rule of law when the Chief Justice put his foot down, this lawless man would still have been President-in-wardi.

As for MQM and its followers and sympathizers, not only are they based on lies and narrow-minded ethnic mindsets, suffice it to say that they have betrayed Pakistan during its darkest hours.

rf786: The way things are going demographically and politically, I suspect pretty soon, the only way one could have an interface with ol' Sindhi stuff in karachi like: Ajrak, Kulharee and Karo-Kari would be to go check the mannequins at National Museum, Burns Rd.

Re: # 35

HP Saeen,

{Both Nawaz and the Shajaat group have tons of loans written off. Because Zardari has some bad rep in mohajirs and some Isloo type punjabis, so he is a bad guy but the others are Koshar!}

Saeen, u r making wild, baseless generalizations. Majority of Mohajirs empathize with the Bhuttos but at the same time vote MQM. That does not make them anti-Bhutto or Pro-Sharifs. I find the illegitimate child of Military, Sharifs most disgusting and abhorrent breed that ever walked this earth. Asif Zardari is no angel and has made things worse for himself and the Bhutto family, YET he has served more than seven years in jail in a country where politicians take the first flight out of the country when faced with imprisonment. You need to rephrase and re-direct your misplaced anger.

{Btw, the mohajir opinion counts for schitt in this issue. Their political views don’t coincide with the majority of the country as mostly mohajir believe in fascism. as they favor a party that is fascist is nature.}

Saeen, I could use some very spiteful, derogatory language for Sindhis and believe me there is plenty of it out there. But, that would not help anyone especially someone reacting rather than being racist. Having said that, if you wish to continue with this diatribe then rest assured there is plenty of that sch!t flying around.

{Flame the kasbah!}

??? care to elaborate.


Why vilify the entire Mohajirs when

#29 Posted by MeraPakistan

“If PPP can be run only by Bhuttos by killing the democratic system within the party then Fatima is a better choice in my opinion as she is real Bhutto unlike Bilawal, as compared by the writer.�

Your opinion clearly is childish. Did you give your opinion to Gahaffar Khan when he put his son Wali Khan in charge? Did you give your opinion when Wali Khan appointed his son Afsandyar Khan as the head of the party. Would you care to tell me why Nawaz Sharif appointed his Brother Shabaz as the President of N league. Would you care to explain why Only Parvaiz can take Shujaat’s place?

Isn’t altaf gadha the leader for life?

#33 Posted by mangotree

“The PPP seniors are practising hypocrisy by giving leadership to Zardari. He doesn't have a reputation,�

Bw, how many loans Zardari got from Banks that have been written off? Both Nawaz and the Shajaat group have tons of loans written off. Because Zardari has some bad rep in mohajirs and some Isloo type punjabis, so he is a bad guy but the others are Koshar!

Btw, the mohajir opinion counts for schitt in this issue. Their political views don’t coincide with the majority of the country as mostly mohajir believe in fascism. as they favor a party that is fascist is nature.

You guys are so pathetic, it is beyond belief.

Flame the kasbah!

Beena,

I am a bit puzzled by this article. Though you do not metion it outright, your article implies that people who are asking questions either belong to the "dirty brigade" or the club of "dirty elites". If I am correct in thinking so then your article (opinion) is a real dissapointment, though you do have the right to your opinion. If I am mistaken then do escuse me.

Certain points:

1. BB's return was brokered by the US.

2. Her death has taken a lot of attention away from the lawyers'/students' movement. This is a blow to the movement.

3. BB was not a Utopian. She was a realist. She did what could be done for herself, her party and her country (perhaps in that order too). In doing so she did help in the process of democracy. In real life politics "one step forward, two steps back" may be optimal and I see no reason to "blame" her for that.

4. It is also true that there is no reason for an outside observer to feel that she did much to foster democracy within her own party. At the same time one can easily be convinced that, given the situation in the ground, such a move was not feasible.

5. The problem with the rationale put forth in 4 is that, the dictator and the army are using the same rationale to obstruct the process of democracy in Pakistan.

6. What saddens me a lot is that focus has shifted from the lawers'/students' movement.

7. BB might not have known what to do after boycotting the elections. That is fine by me. If and when there are elections there should be participation. However, it is quite possible that amongst those who are boycotting the elections, there are groups who know exactly what to do afterwards. I would find it difficult to believe that they all belong to the "dirty brigade" or "elites".

Regards.

Re: # 29

I agree. The PPP seniors are practising hypocrisy by giving leadership to Zardari. He doesn't have a reputation, that's another thing.

"If PPP can be run only by Bhuttos by killing the democratic system within the party then Fatima is a better choice in my opinion as she is real Bhutto unlike Bilawal, as compared by the writer."

It seems after all, that only a Bhutto can have the top job because of the name. PPP-Sb and PPP should resolve their differences and give the leadership to Fatima Bhutto.

It is only a party we're talking about and the PPP can do what they like, who's going to listen to anyone

Re: # 31

yes the better solution is to express your disgust with this whole masquerade that a corrupt, vicious, and pro-western ruling elite puts on. Tell them that what you do is unacceptable. Boycott them. Spread the awareness to your fellow citizens. Refuse to be a part of their exploiting games. No compromises. This is the best you can do. If they mend their ways; accept the supremacy of law and social justice; it is for their own good. And if they don't, then each and everyone of them will face the guilotine, just like benazir did at liaqat park. It is written on the wall. The cleansing and scrubbing process that has taken on its own momentum now is irreversible. Nature does not favor incompetent, corrupt, weak. It replaces them with more fit species. Dump the losers.

Please read between the lines. I am not supporting anyone, things are not Ideal in Pakistan as I suggested that the correct way was the party election, but pakistan is not ideal and if people really want a Bhutto to lead PPP, I was agreeing with the writer that Fatima is better than Bilawal when it comes to the PPP leadership.
Or do u have any better proposal on this issue, rather than just being pessimistc and only critisizing?

Re: # 29

Bhai I am not cursing you but listen to yourself. All you are saying is i that "oh it is really bad to fall into a septic tank, full of you know what, but I would rather fall into this septic tank rather than that one". So who should one blame; you or the septic tank.

If PPP can be run only by Bhuttos by killing the democratic system within the party then Fatima is a better choice in my opinion as she is real Bhutto unlike Bilawal, as compared by the writer.
Ideally PPP should have conducted elections within the party to choose the new leader or the leadership should be given to second person in command (Amin Fahim), which make me say that these political parties are no democratic.
Again, some people are very pessimistic and then can only curse and spread hate without understanding the other person's point of view.

I unequivocally hate all these m/f feudal fukks, their offspring, and their chamchas. But what really makes my skin crawl is the fact that apparently educated and sensible people not only write articles about them but make idols, icons, and martyrs out of them. No wonder our nation and country is such a cesspool.

please fix the following link as why-not-fatima (there is no space)

Zardari has successfully hijacked the leadership of PPP from Bhuttos to Zardari by delivering the Fake Will.

On one hand is Fatima Bhutto, who was brought up in Pakistan. She knows Pakistan, she is educated, she is 25 yr old which makes her to get into parlianment rightaway. She write articles unlike Benazir, whose first job was the PM of Pakistan.

On the other hand we have the spoiled drunk Bilawal Zardari, who is into fornication as well and this idiot was saying in the conference that Pakistan can disintegrate, do u really think, he has the wisom to judge this.

Comparison Of Fatima Bhutto and Bilawal Zardari.

http://pak1stanfirst.com/2008/01/08/if-a-bhutto-must-run-pakistan-why-not-fa tima/

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23430938-details/Free+alcoho l%2C+hangovers%2C+bisexual+friends+and+a+girl+called+Boozie+Suzie+...+inside+the +student+life+of+Bilawal+Bhutto+Zardari/article.do

(NYT)
Bhutto’s Persona Raises Distrust, as Well as Hope

By JANE PERLEZ

Published: November 11, 2007

"While Ms. Bhutto has managed to maintain much of her freedom of movement this week, her biggest rival in the party, Aitzaz Ahsan, the leader of the lawyers’ movement against General Musharraf, was jailed on the first night of the emergency rule.

Mr. Ahsan is a Cambridge University-educated lawyer who served in her father’s cabinet, and then hers, and he defended Ms. Bhutto in a series of corruption cases in the early 1990s.

But in an illustration of Ms. Bhutto’s attitude to competition, he was quickly frozen out by Ms. Bhutto after he was introduced around Washington last year as a possible counterbalance to General Musharraf, senior members of the party said."

The complete article can be found at :

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/11/world/asia/11bhutto.html?scp=16&sq=Ai tzaz+Ahsan

Re: # 8

{It is that of the scoundrel musharraf. Who has made a mockery of the Pakistani electoral process in the past with his crooked one-man "referendums", who had destroyed the Supreme Court,}

Now where have I heard that before, Hmmm....

... however all this discussion appears to be moot. I just spoke to a provincial assembly candidate of PML-N who does not believe there will be any elections.

#18 Posted by Jahanzeb.Awan,

The rift between Ch. Aitezaz and Benazir was basically pro-deal and anti-deal. That included the Lawyers' movement in which Benazir had sidelined and distanced herself from Aitezaz.

Interestingly, this divide is very visible between the PPP Sindh leadership and that of PPP Punjab, including rank and file. Punjab PPP was anti-deal while Sindh was pro.

I think Zardari's first task is to correct that divide - because the deal went with Benazir and is now irrelevant - and he appears to be working at it.

Re: #17 (The article by Mr. Hussain Haqqani)

It is quite interesting to note that Mr. Haqqani's wife was given a ticket by the PPP despite the strong opposition offered by Ms. Naheed Khan (who was BB's political and personal secretary).Ms. Khan chose not to contest the elections in protest despite her closeness with BB.

Re: # 12
Madam I have not critisized BB for her gender....
Kindly do not assume things on your own...
BB was the leader of PPP and she assumed her father's role.....
Let me assure you the comparion was only regarding the two's stature in that role....
If it pleases you than let me frankly admit that ZAB's both sons were not even 1/10th of BB....
Please be a little mature....
I did not refer to her gender ......
but merely to her role as PPP chairperson and Pakistan's PM....
Calling some one a pig with out even thinking that what he means is immature....and childish....
Thats all.....
if you still think that I am sexist....
Ok think whatever you want to.....
A mature person before leveling such an allegation exercises a lot of care.....
your rude language depicts your own shortcomings...And this is the last time (for that matter the first and last time) I am conversing with you....
No matter what you come up with in your next post, I am not going to answer....
I do not want to converse with people who are shamelessly immature and bring in gender issue when it was never ever the intention on my part......

Re: # 13
Tahmed32 - The other day - a group of us were all set to watch a movie. Everything was set up, and while settling down to watch the movie, with the remote in one hand and a decent drink on the other, one of the group uttered the following (they were having a discussion on BiBi et al)

Maya Mari Na Man Mara, Mar Mar Gaye Shareer
Asha Trishna Na Mari, Keh Gaye Das Kabir

They seem rather apt at this juncture.

Re: #16 - You wrote that:

"It is towards the above that Zardari has announced moving his base to Lahore, and possible nomination of Ch. Aitezaz as Senior Vice Chairman of the party."

This is the popular rumour circulating these days that AA will be appointed as the Senior Vice Chariman of PPP.

However, the news (which has been reported very mutely in the media and civil society) was that AA had fallen out of favour with BB and was completely marginalized by her.

It is no hidden secret that he did suffer a lot of humiliation at the hands of BB allegedly for his work towards the restoration of the CJ and also as a possible alternative to BB against Musharraf for PMship. Therefore, it will be interesting to watch the reaction of the senior party leaders to any such news and subsequent decision regarding the same.

Beyond Benazir
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The Pakistan Peoples Party is right to keep her family in charge.
By Husain Haqqani
January 16, 2008
The Pakistan Peoples Party's decision to elect Benazir Bhutto's 19-year-old son, Bilawal Bhutto Zardari, and her husband, Asif Ali Zardari, as co-chairs of the party in the aftermath of her assassination is being criticized as representing dynastic politics that do not promote democracy.

But a distinction needs to be made between dynastic politics and the politics of family legacy. And the context of such family-based leadership needs to be understood.

Much of the recent coverage of events characterizes Pakistan as facing a choice between flawed, family-oriented and often corrupt politics and the supposed stability provided by a military-intelligence establishment that has fostered terrorism for years. The international community, including the United States, must side with Pakistan's politicians, whatever their real or perceived faults. An unaccountable secret service and a military leader with delusions of regional grandeur could keep Pakistan, and its neighbors, mired in endless violence.

It is difficult for Americans to understand a situation in which a well-organized political party unites around the charisma of a single family while retaining a vast pool of talented leaders. But family legacies have worked to build democracies in countries as far apart as Greece and India.

The Papandreou and Karamanlis families provide leaders for rival parties in Greece, and the Nehru-Gandhi family has been the focal point for the Indian National Congress. The Pakistan Peoples Party, like other parties with family-based leadership, has a lot of talent in its ranks. That talent would remain available to Bhutto's husband and son. The choice of leaders from a particular family is often important for its symbolism and does not make the party a family fiefdom.

There is a fundamental divide in Pakistan. On one side stands the civil-military oligarchy (currently headed by Pervez Musharraf) that rules with the covert machinations of an all-powerful intelligence service, which fixes elections, divides parties and buys off politicians at will. On the other side are politicians who question the military-intelligence oligarchy's right to rule and pay the price by being periodically jailed and frequently vilified.

If, in the aftermath of Bhutto's tragic assassination, the party had taken time to go through the entire process of a party primary or intra-party election, the intelligence apparatus would have actively worked to divide Pakistan's largest opposition party, with the huge resources of the state, considerably boosted by U.S. anti-terrorism funding, at their disposal. By rallying the party base around Bhutto's son and husband, the party has saved itself from the intrigues of Musharraf's secret services.

Some view the Bhutto legacy as a thorn in Pakistan's history. But to the family's supporters, the Bhutto name represents a wealthy family that spoke for redistribution of wealth in an elitist state during the late 1960s, when much of Pakistan's economic growth just went to 22 major families. Since 1967, when Zulfikar Ali Bhutto founded the Pakistan Peoples Party, the country's poor have continued to identify with it. The number of the well-to-do in Pakistan has increased manifold over the years, but the country still has 65 million people living below the poverty line and another 65 million living just above it — a total of 130 million poor people in a country of 160 million.

The Bhuttos have not been perfect, as critics remind us on a regular basis, and their stints in power did not always fulfill expectations. Western-educated Pakistanis, including professionals living in the U.S., resent what they consider feudal politics. But most of them refuse to engage in the political process and pay the price of combating militarism and dictatorship. And the removal of each Bhutto government by military or palace coup has only added to the aura of the family's struggle and sacrifice against military dominance.

As managers, Pakistan's politicians might not meet the standards of their country's professional elite. But they have the courage to question dictators and remain connected to the masses when the elites simply neglect them.

The visceral association with the Bhutto family and the PPP of millions of Pakistanis cannot be explained without reference to the value of sentiments in politics. And as Drew Weston's book, "The Political Brain: The Role of Emotion in Deciding the Fate of the Nation," demonstrates, even in the United States, feelings trump cold analysis in the making of political choices.

Husain Haqqani, a professor at Boston University, is co-chair of the Hudson Institute's Project on Islam and Democracy, author of "Pakistan: Between Mosque and Military" and a former advisor to Benazir Bhutto.

I think nomination of Bilawal is a temporary damage control measure, and correct in order to keep PPP from falling apart in the immediate aftermath. Ultimately the leadership will need to be from outside the Bhutto family if PPP wants to retain its federal character and support in Punjab.

It is towards the above that Zardari has announced moving his base to Lahore, and possible nomination of Ch. Aitezaz as Senior Vice Chairman of the party.

Beena,
You have ommitted the dirtiest of the dirty ricks thouh they have been discussed in detail on this blog.

Add to the end of #13

...among other things (like his letting maulvis from lal masjid run riot on Islamabad residents, on the pretext of being afraid of them, like the killing of peaceful demonstrators on May 12).

#11 iron_mask: greetings. nothing as byzantine as being a closet-mushy man my friend. you overestimate my sneakiness. :-)

I am just mad at the brazen manner in which this man has gone about wrecking the constitution and putting away judges and lawyers who came in the way.

Re: # 4

"Baqi though I had great admiration for ZAB I think his daughter was not even a shade of him...... "

now a 'skeptical' male chauvinist pig from PPP -- sure as hell -- about a 'daughter' "not even a shade of" of HER father!

How could she be anything but a "shade" -- she is not the 'son' of the father. Well -- she was 100 times more civilized than her father.

Re: # 8 TAhmed32, you seem to be a one man anti-mushy band?

Hi there! whatzup friend? Are you into reverse psychology thing or what. Here is a bet I would like to wager - you are a closet Mushy Man, all this chest beating on Chowk is to identify real Mush-haters and make them sweat.

There are more important questions which need to be answered. For example, who will be making the porridge for Zardari-10%? Don't tell me he already had someone on stand-by doing this already?


Bibi cannot be replaced. She is gone. What is needed, is the ability of the PPP to reinvent itself and become a truly mass movement with leadership from outside the family.

Dirty politics is something wihch cannot be wished away, politics is dirty period. What is to be seen is if the PPP and the country can show ingenuity in overcoming hurdles.

Unfortunately, the article highlights the hurdles, but shies away from showing the runners who can jump over these hurdles. Some how I doubt if Billawal is the runner who can perform this long distance steeple chase.

Maybe all these tricks are a blessing in disguise? Time will tell.

Re: # 5

"A name change to Islamic peoples party IPP will do wonders to the PPP."

the same kind of "wonders" it has done for the MMA -- which should change itself to MMNA -- Muttahida Majlis-e Na Ahal

tens of thousands of FIRs against party workers?!! Lets put a face to this dirty tricks brigade. It is that of the scoundrel musharraf. Who has made a mockery of the Pakistani electoral process in the past with his crooked one-man "referendums", who had destroyed the Supreme Court, and who now is misusing the police registration system as he tries to keep clinging to his illegal rule.

Although, you are right when you allude to the 'Dirty Tricks Brigade' and their doings in the post-assassination scenario (which was very much expected of them).

However, the PPP, it seems, has not helped itself much either. I think that unless they take corrective and remedial measures it is just a factor of time before the biggest political party may just disintegrate into factions (along the lines of personalities and/or ethnic lines).

Objective, impartial and very good description, many thanks Beena.

It is more than likely that PPP will wither away, on the surface due to infighting, lack of leadership and as the author says, due to dirty tricks.

But the reality is that a party without any islamic connotations cannot survive. The original Jinnah party was pakistan muslim league and later various PML vesions have come up.

What has 'people' to do with power and politics in pakistan, it has to be an islamic party.

A name change to Islamic peoples party IPP will do wonders to the PPP.

It was a good article that reminded us of the grave and ground realities....
Like it or hate it....
PPP is Bhutto dynasty....
It is okay....
If masses and workers want it that way.....
Mr Zardari could not have done and gotten away with it unless supported by the workers.....
In our part dynasty politics is a reality and perhaps a neccessity....
No drawing room talk can amend it......
It is better to accept it and then find a way to force the point of view through the dynasty flag bearers....
Baqi though I had great admiration for ZAB I think his daughter was not even a shade of him......

Now that all the eulogies have been sung, the daughter of the east has been put to rest, the emotions have subsided, the wells of tears have gone dry, let us look at the anomaly that the late Benazir represented.

A muslim woman leader in an islamic country, a country where sharia is the supreme law. Well that is an absurdity, the late Benzir was an albino in the darkness of an islamic country.

The nature abhors mutants, pakistani politics is back on track. Long live Pakistan. Long live Benazir.

Let these agency-created parties first hold elections within their own ranks.

What Zulfi did went with him, what B.B. did wil torment her, what Asif Ali is about to do scares the pants (or jeans, or hijab) off me!

Our choices are: cult-based paid stooges, techinical wizards turned saviours of Pakistan, chowkidars turned rulers etc. There are some (30% in Pakistan, 10% worldwide) who await somebody else!

Yes it is important for everyone to see Pakistan's politics free from all interference. However what proof do any of us have that the PPP is the messiah for this cause?

We must also remember what the PPP has achieved in its two past governances of our country. Let history be the judge of the hopefuls for the future leadership of Pakistan.