unflinching idealism ... since 1997 archivessitemapabouthelpfeedback
all are welcome to read, write and think
  • Home
  • InFocus
  • Themes
  • Columns
  • Articles
  • Fiction
  • iLogs
  • Gallery
  • Unplugged
  • Writers
  • Interactors
  • Tags
Sign in | Join Chowk
web chowk
  • Article
  • Interact
  • read writer comments
  • add to favorites
  • get rss feeds
  • print
  • email this link

The Dirty Tricks Brigade Tries to Spoil a Party

Beena Sarwar January 15, 2008

Latest comments   flat   threaded   latest   oldest   all
listing 1-16   1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11

#253 Posted by Skeptical on January 24, 2008 9:21:05 pm
Gentleman this is some thing which all of you must read...........

Junta versus Janata by Shekhar Gupta, The Indian Express
Published on January 21, 2008

The Indian politician bumbles, the Pakistani general strides purposefully in his natty suits. Guess who keeps his country stable. Pakistanis surely coin more colourful political slogan than us. They are also less subtle. So, the next time you see visuals of a PPP protest rally on your TV screens following Benazir¡¦s assassination, strain your ears a bit to catch a most telling slogan: Amreeka ne kutta paala, vardi waala, vardi waala. It would lose much flavour in transliteration, but the meaning would not be lost on even a non-Hindi speaker. Now when was the last time you had the army called a dog, and that too an American poodle, on Pakistan¡¦s streets? And this is a Pakistan under an almighty (lately, former) general who has the power to declare and suspend emergency in televised speeches, the power to make 36 (or thereabouts) amendments in his ¡§constitution¡¨ at a press conference, and whose ability to take the biggest decisions on the spot is the envy, often, of the Indian politician, and has been a cause for admiration among India¡¦s chattering classes.
How many times, since he came on his first visit for the Agra summit, have we heard fellow Indians, including serious, knowledgeable people, talk of him with a sense of awe? See, how confident he looks, how well he speaks, the swagger, so impressive, knows his mind, is so fit and energetic, so much in control, so macho, can-do and so on. The sub-text was, view this is total contrast with our own political class: overweight, badly dressed, clumsy, evasive in their answers, indecisive, inarticulate and, horror of horrors, not even able to speak any English.

And then came Shaukat Aziz, on secondment from Citibank. So smart, articulate, in his smartly cut suits, blah, blah and blah. And what kind of people did we have holding the same job in India? Gowda, who slept in Parliament. Vajpayee, who never seems to answer any question. Gujral who only uttered diplomatic platitudes that meant nothing. And Narasimha Rao, who mostly pretended he had not even heard the question.

Now let me tell you a few stories. Not necessarily connected either by timing or context, but yielding an interesting conclusion, nevertheless.

¡E One of the great untold stories of the Agra summit is how challenging it was for both Vajpayee and Musharraf to deal with each other. One thought he had the answer even before a question had been asked. The other would think for ever, and often tire out his interlocutor. Apparently at one of the mid-day review sessions Musharraf shared his exasperation with his aides. He said something like, I know you guys told me he takes time responding to anything, but how do I deal with somebody who takes so long and then says nothing? A bit like John McEnroe tossing his racket in exasperation while playing Ramesh Krishnan and screaming: how do I play this guy? He serves at five miles per hour!

One of his aides tried to suggest that Vajpayee takes so long because he is processing Musharraf¡¦s question in his wise, old head. Musharraf was still irritated and somebody senior in his inner council said, with humour laced with disdain: to unka processor Pentium nahin, 286 hoga (then his processor must be a 286, not a Pentium).

¡E Now listen to the story from the other end. What exasperated Vajpayee most of all was Musharraf¡¦s cocky ¡§decisiveness¡¨. ¡§You are the prime minister, I am the president, if we agree on something, let¡¦s sign,¡¨ he would say, while at the same time making changes on the draft of a likely agreement and asking Vajpayee to okay it. He simply wouldn¡¦t buy Vajpayee¡¦s argument that he had a cabinet to go back to. ¡§Par aap prime minister hain. Aap faisla keejiye (but you are the prime minister, you decide),¡¨ Musharraf would say. So when Vajpayee briefed his aides and fellow members of the Cabinet Committee on Security (who, barring George Fernandes, were in Agra), he said about his counterpart pretty much the opposite of what he said of him: ¡§He is in such a hurry. Kuchch sochne ko taiyyar nahin hain. Sub kuch faisala abhi chahte hain, kaise samjhaoon bhai.¡¨ Or words to that effect.

¡E In the main lounge of the Congress Centre at Davos, Switzerland, where all kinds from heads of state to global corporate leaders to rock stars to ordinary journalists congregate and rub shoulders during the World Economic Forum January meeting, I found my old friend, Pakistani journalist, part-time politician, now a full-time exile, Boston University professor and also an Indian Express columnist, Husain Haqqani. As we exchanged gossip, Shaukat Aziz walked past, accompanied by a couple of minders, perfectly cut suit, pompous, smug smile and all. Just that morning he had lectured many of us senior editors over breakfast, laying down the law for India: nothing would move, the gas pipeline, even the permission to Indian private airlines to fly to Pakistan unless the ¡§core¡¨ issue was addressed. Again there was some admiration for his confidence and clarity even among the Indian contingent as he was ¡§so unlike our bumbling politicians¡¨.

Haqqani¡¦s eyes were now lit up with mischief. He pointed his finger directly at Aziz and said: ¡§You know what they say, Davos is the Disneyland of the mind. If that be so, there goes its Mickey Mouse.¡¨

How have the relative fortunes of the two competing kinds of leaderships and nations under their charge evolved over these seven years? Musharraf now looks bumbling and unconvincing, an international joke, a pitiable, forlorn figure, hated by his countrymen, distrusted by the world and mentioned dismissively even by Barack Obama. Shaukat Aziz has disappeared from the scene, even losing out to an ordinary mortal ¡X coincidentally from India ¡X for the top job in his alma mater, Citi. Their country is a mess, their own army, for the first time, is seeing its credibility, power, its pre-eminent position in Pakistan¡¦s society and power structure questioned. Its political class is decimated, its institutions fatally wounded. How do people as proud as the Pakistanis feel when their dictator offers to salvage his credibility by summoning the Scotland Yard to investigate the assassination of their most prominent political leader? Nobody believes their election commission¡¦s intentions, motives or judgment in postponing their election.

Vajpayee, on the other hand, sits at home, having lost power in an election, not in the pink of health, but satisfied at the way his country is moving. His successor, from the opposite side of the political fence, even comes to wish him on his birthday. His country has meanwhile had many more state elections and another general election within a year or so will give his successors in his own party another crack at power. Now, think, who finally won. The indecisive, inarticulate, ineffective slob who did not seem to have an answer to anything, or the macho, confident, smart, decisive, modern smartie who seemed to have an answer to everything?

There are many interesting, and important conclusions to be drawn from this complex argument. But the most significant is this: a modern nation needs democracy and so it needs its politicians, however clumsy, corrupt, effete and power-crazed they may be. Because a military dictator can also be all of these things. The difference is, the political leader draws his power from the democratic process, so he has a stake in preserving that system, howsoever cynical he may be. The general draws his power by throttling the democratic system and its institutions and you can see the results of that in Pakistan. So, in a democracy, howsoever powerful a Lalu or Mayawati, they have to shut up and listen when the Supreme Court speaks. The election commission can publicly upbraid both Sonia Gandhi and Narendra Modi. We, the media, can question and curse who we want. It happens because the political class has the biggest stake in the democratic process, howsoever much it may wish to manipulate it. In contrast, a military dictator owes his power to the absence of institutions, of checks and balances. That is exactly what Musharraf has done to his judiciary, the election commission and even the media. That is why he has to summon the Scotland Yard to investigate Benazir¡¦s assassination
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#252 Posted by Urstruly on January 24, 2008 9:58:46 am
Re: # 251 hamidm

Father Raymond eh? Now it makes sense why you are so repulsed by anything religious. Look what happened in the past was a painful nightmare; but every nightmare is always follwed by a bright sunny day. Yes it is tru that that nightmare tore you apart but life is nothing but second chances. Time heals all kinds of wounds no matter how deep and how wide. Just forgive and forget for something that you had no control over. You were just a kid. It was not your fault.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#251 Posted by hamidm2 on January 23, 2008 2:32:31 pm
Re: # 249

fuzair mian,

... sometimes you have to stretch a point to make a point :)

... by the way i was at st mary's when the rev fr byrne was the principal and ms may flannagan still had nice legs (she died in 2006 - i think tess is still alive) .....we had only eleven boys in our senior cambridge class ....... i was at st patrick's when fr raymond was the principal ....... that was a long long time ago ......... sigh !
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#250 Posted by bubba on January 21, 2008 4:49:25 pm
Re: # 234 Posted by hamidm2 on January 19, 2008 4:54:54 am

[... personally i support the division of iraq with permanent us bases in kurdistan as in korea ....]

Did you see the latest edition of The Atlantic Monthly? Do you agree with redrawing of the middle-east, Iran and Pakistan? Personally, I think that in the next 20 years or so, we might see a major reconfiguration of the middle-east, which I think will be good for the world.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#249 Posted by fuzair on January 21, 2008 4:27:23 pm
Sorry, was a post on the forced marriage annulment in Saudi Arabia but for some reason the post got cut.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#248 Posted by fuzair on January 21, 2008 4:21:06 pm
Each time I think Hamidm has gone too far in criticizing Islam, I read some crap like this (
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#247 Posted by SR on January 21, 2008 10:23:22 am
Thanks to the 5th Arjun for sucking chowk beta's ass, or whatever it was that he did.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#246 Posted by anil on January 21, 2008 8:48:38 am
Re: # 244

Massaddi Mian:

"...the entire Third World alike..."

Are you still living in the Third World. I thought the Second World was gone long before you emerged from your diapers.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#245 Posted by arjun_5 on January 20, 2008 4:50:37 pm
#243 Posted by anil on January 20, 2008 10:54:00 am


#242 Posted by rf786 on January 20, 2008 9:17:54 am

It's not "my" article neither did I read it before I posted it..I was just posting it as a hotlink for SR because chowk beta sucks ass.

However, I agree with what most of what you say.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#244 Posted by masadi on January 20, 2008 11:48:32 am
There is no such thing as fair and free and open competition. Global institutions financial as well as manufacturing are dominated by Western corporations who have monopoly power and are not fools to let others kill them knowingly. Keep dreaming, India and China are getting deeper into the gutter, their people are still dirt poor and until they realize that glitter isn't everything and recognize their true enemies, who are the enemies of humanity and the entire Third World alike, i.e. the US elite and their minions around the globe, they will all remain in the gutter.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#243 Posted by anil on January 20, 2008 10:54:00 am
Re: # 241

Arjun:

I have said it here many times. The world's market based economy is entering a new era. With the arrival of Brazil, Russia, India and China, colonial model of controlling energy and resources is gone. Market will force competition, and as a result there will be better distribution of profits and equuitable distribution of wealth. Western economies from colonial days, controlled energy and other mineral resources. Now, as Hamidm said RFQs have requirement of 60+% Indian contents.

This new model of developmental economy will be based on higher efficiency and productivity, as competition will be open. Then again, Olympics is open competition too, or is it really about who can find a non-detectable performance enhancing drug. This is the new mantra in developmental economy as well. Who can, is who can win. Cocentrate on Today's India, and less on Pakistan.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#242 Posted by rf786 on January 20, 2008 9:17:54 am
Re: # 241

arjun_5

FT article has highlighted some very disturbing trends but fails to identify the root cause of increased state ownership.

Growth in China, India and other third world countries has fueled incredible demand for commodities which has led to higher prices and increased revenues for countries rich in resources. Main beneficiaries of this trend was the third world countries that had very little exposure to free markets thus the increase of state or sovereign wealth funds. Developed nations (G-7) continue to be the dominant economies but did not participate in this commodity led rally thus the knee jerk reaction to defend their economies and markets by introducing added regulations.

These are uncertain times with US economy headed into a recession matters could get worse before they are corrected.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#241 Posted by arjun_5 on January 20, 2008 8:48:57 am
FT article.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#240 Posted by SR on January 20, 2008 7:43:47 am
Re: # 237 bulleya wrote ["... bank ceo's who are now begging arabs for capital ..."]

While your statement has a nice ring to it, I hope you meant it just a rhetorical quip and didn't seriously mean it. It's not just Arab capital, but other Asians' capital also. The issue is investment capital of Foreign Sovereign Funds.

Check out the following 2 items:

1) This is the testimony of Patrick Mulloy before the Senate Committee of Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs :

http://banking.senate.gov/_files/111407_Mulloy.pdf


2) A Financial Times article by Jeffrey Garten, a professor of international trade and finance at the Yale School of Management:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f0f2a32e-c2d6-11dc-b617-0000779fd2ac.html

...SR

(It's a god-damned shame that we cannot imbed font colors or active URL's in the message any more. So you'll have to copy and paste these URLs.)
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#239 Posted by arjun_4 on January 19, 2008 9:45:07 am
#235 Posted by bulleya on January 19, 2008 6:45:12 am


india had no success in kashmir with 700,000 soldiers


umm..india controls indian kashmir the last time i checked..and despite your own predictions that it would "banega" pakistan in 5 years after 9/11, that looks quite unlikely except to the most deluded(i.e. pakis)...

OTOH, the paki army's efforts at kashmir banega pakistan have been a miserable failure and only ended up with the paki army ruling pureland and bombing it's own citizens...
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#238 Posted by arjun_4 on January 19, 2008 9:42:07 am
#237 Posted by bulleya on January 19, 2008 8:02:50 am


.....usa is already firing its bank ceo's who are now begging arabs for capital.


The US is "begging" arabs for capital? Wouldn't that give arabs great power over US policy...gee..it could even mean they could use their power to give the palis a state and give kashmir to pureland....

I'm thinking of wearing a t-shirt with an arab flag the next time I am in new york...which flag do you think I should use?
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#237 Posted by bulleya on January 19, 2008 8:02:50 am
hamidm2 mian #: ".... would you have left the nazis alone in the hope that they would become civilized on their own ?...... "

hmm....nazis initiated into ww ii in 1939....us entered in on 7th dec, 1941.....if my history is correct, it was after the japanese attacked pearl harbor...

so for more than two years, the nazis were left alone, "in the hope that they would become civilized on their own"......as were the japanese.......and the italians...

the largest conflict of present day, if my history is correct, is in congo....the death toll is in millions......i haven't seen the us govt. having too many problems about it......when is it planning to invade congo to civilize it?.......

......the usa, at least in its foreign policy, is on the same road as the nazis......the number of people it has killed is reaching nazi levels.....which is my point......and which is why it is our responsibility, based on the rules described by you, to stop killings by the usa.......i am sure nazis had their own version of rush limbaugh and hamidm2, who used the logic provided by you...

stopping the obl's etc. is not too hard.....they will fall apart, the moment some of these political conflicts are solved, and the us stops backing the dictators......

as i keep saying, americans need to concentrate on enjoying their ipods, and letting everyone else live......specially since, the us has over-extended itself, and may start running out of ipods, if the usa does not limit its shenanigans.....

.....usa is already firing its bank ceo's who are now begging arabs for capital...........
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#236 Posted by hamidm2 on January 19, 2008 7:21:16 am
Re: # 235

romair,

.... would you have left the nazis alone in the hope that they would become civilized on their own ?...... we cannot afford to leave totalitarian ideologies like nazism, communism and islam alone in this day of atom bums and flying planes ..... and who says you cannot civilize people - germans, japanese and koreans are good world citizens ......... i know muslims are a harder nut to crack, but they too can be whipped into shape or completely destroyed - take your pick .......
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#235 Posted by bulleya on January 19, 2008 6:45:12 am
hamidm2 mian #:"..... i still support the iraq war - i just don't like the half hearted approach ......"

...this is alright, as you are already a consultant in the auto industry, and hence cannot do any damage, beyond chowk.....however, farid and john can do a lot of damage.....

there was no half-hearted approach.....$80 billion/year is not a half-hearted approach!.......it is a hell of a lot.....if you remember, i had always said that no war against a population is ever successful.....usa could have pumped in 400,000 soldiers with $160 billion/year, it would have been the same......

india had no success in kashmir with 700,000 soldiers.....soviets had no success in afghanistan, despite having a common border, even after killing 1 million people......

"personally i support the division of iraq with permanent us bases in kurdistan as in korea .... like israel, let's make kurdistan a beacon of light in that dark desert of ignorance ......."

hmm...israel a beacon of light......if you (or i) are ever blown up, along with the city of new york, someday, i think the unravelling of the whole event will lead back to israel/palestine conflict.....i certainly have no interest in getting blown up......

let israel become a beacon of light on its own.......

as for kurdistan, the day it declares independence, is the day turkey will invade fully.......once again, i had mentioned that turkey would be in a state of war, with iraq, after this invasion.......

so, you have palestinians and israelis fighting......shias, sunnis and kurds fighting in iraq.....afghans and pakistanis fighting in waziristan........now you want to start a turk/kurd war in kurdistan.......

how about a better idea......let the countries become civilized on their own.....why don't the americans simply enjoy their ipods and iphones and the new air notebook, within their own borders......they can get cheap oil from arabs and have fun......live and let live....
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#234 Posted by hamidm2 on January 19, 2008 4:54:54 am
Re: # 224

romair mian,

..... i still support the iraq war - i just don't like the half hearted approach ...... personally i support the division of iraq with permanent us bases in kurdistan as in korea .... like israel, let's make kurdistan a beacon of light in that dark desert of ignorance ....... it is america's duty to spread civilization .......
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#233 Posted by Zeena on January 18, 2008 10:41:21 pm
Writter sahiba
In my fair pov, PPP should nominate some capable person like Aitza hussan for the PM ship and also for chairmanship, if, PPP reaaly wishes to revive and survive....b/c zardari as usual doing his special dirty tricks as well to undermine BB's excellent and brave efforts to regain democracy in pakistan and to dismantle army's dictatorship.

Zardari is the most hatred person by majority of Pakistanis and who is Bilawal btw? This is not dynasty....Bilawal ot to prove his worth as a politician in future...Zardari already got NO charisma and No character at all, his character is Mr. 10% and he is the reason for the down fall of BB and everybody knows that....I think Zardari should be thrown out of PPP.......why majority PPP workers seem helpless now infront of this crook corrupt and incompetent zardari? the badmash...

Also, why not Fatima Bhutto? the girl has charisma and character as well, she has already proven her worth by expressing her thoughts multiple times via her columns, she got the real political genes and a polished personality......
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#232 Posted by arjun_4 on January 18, 2008 6:46:22 pm
#230 Posted by ahmedmadani on January 18, 2008 4:37:46 pm


Please read many comments by YLH in this matters.


I'll get around to it..I'm still digesting his "orascom" is a paki company post...
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#231 Posted by ahmedmadani on January 18, 2008 4:54:07 pm
Re: # 229
Masasdi , your adjective "sellout" tells all.
Thanks for telling as it is.We have no shortage of this sellouts and peons.
Have good day
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#230 Posted by ahmedmadani on January 18, 2008 4:37:46 pm
Re: # 225 Arjun what romair is saying right most are telling here they have prenomotion of rigging.
Elections can be clean ,Please keep in mind in india and pakistan getting votes is not important counting is more important and there will magic by powers to be.
India is not democracy it is drama/Gimmick of democracy. Please read many comments by YLH in this matters.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#229 Posted by masadi on January 18, 2008 3:35:04 pm
From the producers of "Don't taze me bro", to the Howard Dean shreik, to Huckabee talking about Pakistanis sneaking across the Mexico border, to the BS of the Clintons, to Tancredo's nonsense, every four years we see the "maturity" of the US politicians and then we have this sellout Zakaria having the audacity to talk about the maturity of the Pakistani politicians. Man, these US monkeys in the political process bring to shame the red assed baboons around the globe- next time they talk about political maturity think of these a$$ wipes.

HP mian you need to return to the homeland. I am trying to save you and your future generations from this miserable existance in the swamp hole....give me some goddamned credit...
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#228 Posted by arjun_4 on January 18, 2008 1:40:22 pm
#214 Posted by zeemax on January 18, 2008 8:54:20 am


There's a story of the frog and the boiling water:
This applies to the Kanjars. These are the frogs


What if you use artillery and mortars on the frogs? or maybe a "glock rifle" with a "locking laser scope"?

100 militants killed in South Waziristan

RAWALPINDI (Agencies) - At least 100 militants were killed in South Waziristan during bloody clashes between security forces and miscreants on Friday.
Miscreants started engaging Ladha Fort with small arms and rockets at 10:00am, according to an ISPR Press release.
A large number of miscreants started gathering around north of the Fort at 3:00pm. The security forces used artillery, mortars and small arms fire to engage the miscreants.
Reportedly, 50-60 miscreants were killed and rest of them dispersed. The security forces suffered no casualty.
An ISPR spokesman told that in the second incident that took place at 12:30pm, a convoy of security forces moving on Jandola-Wana Road was fired upon from Chaghmalai with small arms and rockets.
Security forces retaliated and engaged militants with small arms and rockets. The firefight continued for one hour.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#227 Posted by arjun_4 on January 18, 2008 1:36:52 pm
#224 Posted by bulleya on January 18, 2008 12:20:11 pm

whatever zakaria's faults, he wasn't in iraq after the 2003 invasion selling t-shirts with US flags...
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#226 Posted by arjun_4 on January 18, 2008 1:35:21 pm
#225 Posted by bulleya on January 18, 2008 12:31:48 pm


- elections will be held, but will be massively rigged


WHOA...elections in pureland will be rigged!! you don't say!!
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#225 Posted by bulleya on January 18, 2008 12:31:48 pm
heard an interesting theory:....

- elections will be held, but will be massively rigged......musharraf will get the new parliament to grant him indemnity.......

after this, riots will occur, becuase of the people's anger against the rigging.....new elections will be held, and a new parliament will be sworn in.....
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#224 Posted by bulleya on January 18, 2008 12:20:11 pm
hamidm2 mian: "zakaria is one of two americans who understands foreign policy - john mccain is the other ...... i think we can get to critical mass if we get these two together!"

...wasn't zakaria the one cheering the americans into iraq......and isn't mccain the one who feels even more should be sent......

zakaria knows more than the other fools in the republic party who comment on foreign policy......probably becuause, unlike other americans, he has, acutally, seen things outside the usa......but, that isn't saying much....in my opinion, anyone who pushed usa into iraq should call it quits and turn to consulting in the auto industry......

the american who understands foreign policy is bill clinton.....you should listen to the speeches he makes to foreign audiences......they are quite different from the ones he has to make to naive americans.....anyone who can say that khatami of iran and him have a lot in common, and then justify it, is a genius......and my guess is hillary has more access to him than anyone else (other than paula jones and monica)....

until the republic party gets its head out of its ass, and stops making its decisions based on the popular support of the christian right, whose main foreign policy logic is based on their belief that the second coming of christ is not going to occur, until jews control all of the middle east, the republic party is never going to get out of the woods......

(the same christian right, will, then take out the jews, since they are the ones who put christ on the cross).....
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#223 Posted by masadi on January 18, 2008 11:05:33 am
Farid Zakaria "But it is also possible that Pakistan's political class might surprise us with its maturity."


There are two possibilities x and y, x is more probable than y but y is possible and might well be the surprise. And then they tell us that this fool, Zakaria is a goddamned genius....Like I said he doesn't have a clue, he is just rewording mainstream bs in new words mixing that with the obvious byproducts of the recent Musharraf actions.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#222 Posted by Pew_Research on January 18, 2008 10:57:08 am
Re: # 208 Hamidm2

"...please appoint fareed zakaria as secretary of state ..."

Hamidm2, how will that fit with your belief in the J-Man? The Zakaria family had political views that were diametrically opposite from J-Man's. Daddy Zakaria was closely associated with India's freedom movement and the Indian National Congress party. Not to mention that he was the Deputy Leader of the Congress Party under Indira Gandhi.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#221 Posted by GT on January 18, 2008 10:34:46 am
#217 Posted by HP:

" GT, Hamid is a master of subtleties." Agreed. At times, it is fun to play with god ;)

I understand that Zakaria is writing for the Western audience ... but IMO one paragraph, tucked in somewhere in the middle, was not enough.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#220 Posted by masadi on January 18, 2008 9:24:39 am
#219, you I can because you know the reality of the US viz a viz Pakistan, Hamid I can only credit with absurdity, and Zakaria with hypocrisy. By the way, you need to return to the homeland, leave the human swamp hole for people like tahmed, they deserve each other...
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#219 Posted by HP on January 18, 2008 9:20:45 am

asadi,

Would you not credit me with some subtlety?

reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#218 Posted by masadi on January 18, 2008 9:12:54 am
HP writes "Hamid is a master of subtleties"

Rather he is a master of absurdities. McCain panders to the war crowd, together with Lieberman, that he manages to mix that with liberal banalities says nothing for the man. Zakaria just repeats the mainstream BS in new and improved words
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#217 Posted by HP on January 18, 2008 9:10:10 am
GT,
Hamid is a master of subtleties. Pairing John McCain with Zakaria is a master stroke as both show significant amount of pandering to the audiences when it comes to political issues, still, they manage to put the truth out on the table.

The truth is Fareed Zakaria was trained in a very good school at home when it comes to political analysis. His father Rafiq was one of the better political analyst in India. Fareed obviously wants to step away from his father’s name and political thinking- which for many reasons would not be acceptable to his audience in the US.
Still, he drops enough hints in his articles for mature people to figure out what he is saying.

I have not the article yet but as quoted by you, when he says, "But it is also possible that Pakistan's political class might surprise us with its maturity."
Has plenty of beef for astute readers.

He is basically saying that the pak politicians need to show maturity in facing the current situation. I will read the complete article and would be able to comment on it later.

reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#216 Posted by masadi on January 18, 2008 9:09:00 am
fuzair "On a completely different note, when were you at St. Mary's Lalazar and St. Patricks in Karachi? I'm assumng you were there about 12-15 years ;-) before me but just curious. "

I was in both those schools too until 1986, in Henderson's model O'level class stories about which abound
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#215 Posted by fuzair on January 18, 2008 9:00:59 am
Hamidm Saab,

On a completely different note, when were you at St. Mary's Lalazar and St. Patricks in Karachi? I'm assumng you were there about 12-15 years ;-) before me but just curious.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#214 Posted by zeemax on January 18, 2008 8:54:20 am
There's a story of the frog and the boiling water:

When you put a frog in a pot of boiling water, it will jump out immediately.

However, if you put a frog in luke warm water and keep heating that water slowly, it will sit there and actually feel warm, till the water comes to a boil and it will die.

This applies to the Kanjars. These are the frogs in the water being applied the flame.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#213 Posted by Regard on January 18, 2008 8:42:46 am
It is a certainly very naive suggestion. However there is a historical first situation in Pakistan: both political forces and military are tied up in their own problems. They will not be able to interfere much.

May be all those who have suffered, both in India and pakistan by militancy, can quickly generate a new dyanmics. Won't it be easier to call for opening schools and small industrial units in the turbulent areas of west pakistan and afganistan? Pakistani army is fighting a war which they will probably never win but if they are asked to run schools and ... run business (which they know how to), I'm sure many of us, pakistanies and Indians both (besides americans, europeans...) will come forward to finance, supervise and help. Maybe indian army can also be roped in work to do the same overtly on afghan side.

Just walking down the streets of Waziristan as women did in N. Ireland offering schools and work and not handing out money as British did.

A pipe dream!! yes when you see kids killing themselves. It is not for Houris but because of desperation daily lives and for small pittance. Wonder if they will go to school or take up stitching footballs if are paid the same money!!

Our own kids in Karachi, Lahore, Delhi will be able to live normal lives as tehy do in west. Half a chance and I'll pay for a school and spend a couple of months working there every year.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#212 Posted by GT on January 18, 2008 8:29:21 am
Hamid:

Do you know why Zakaria thinks "political class might surprise us". I do not. But it may have to do with your confident assertion that ... "as for abdul, he doesn't think - he is no better than sheep ".
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#211 Posted by hamidm2 on January 18, 2008 8:13:09 am
Re: # 209

GT,

zakaria is one of two americans who understands foreign policy - john mccain is the other ...... i think we can get to critical mass if we get these two together!

..... as for abdul, he doesn't think - he is no better than sheep ..... 'civil society' includes the lawyers and lums students, but it does not include abdul or the sheep ....
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#210 Posted by GT on January 18, 2008 6:47:55 am
Zakaria states:

"But it is also possible that Pakistan's political class might surprise us with its maturity."

No. The Pakistani political class as we know it will probably not surprise us. What is happening is that people are getting politicised - from (apolitical) MBA students in LUMS to a nine year old on the street challenging the police to students in Lahore opposing the bearded ones to (and very importantly) bearded ones opposing pseudo bearded ones. As a result the "political class" is changing. This "Changed" political class may well surprise us with its maturity a few years down the road.

This is not to say that one should give up on the PML/PPP etc. They are extremely important for democracy. I do not give a fig about this corruption nonsense. As Madani sahib has often pointed out, running a party and participating in elections requires money and we do not have proper institutions to generate this money. So corruption is OK. And in that sense BB was OK and so is NS. Wheeling and dealing is what is required in politics. No question about that. However, I have a feeling that this wheeling and dealing will be very cautious about the US and the army in the near future. At least, I hope so.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#209 Posted by GT on January 18, 2008 6:28:59 am
Hamid:

I read Zakaria's article. I do not understand why you found it to be great. Yes the dictator, BB and the jihadis are important but not as important as what is making Abdul think in between sips of tea or whatever he drinks. Unfortunately, Zakaria devoted only one paragraph to this phenomenon. I reproduce it below"

" At a political and constitutional level, the crisis in Pakistan is actually good news. Civil society has mobilized. The print media have been utterly fearless in its criticism of the president. Musharraf's actions have given the parties an agenda to get passionate about, and so far they have not succumbed to the infighting that often destroyed them in the past. It would be a mistake to romanticize Pakistan's democrats. Many are feudal, corrupt and pliant. But increasingly there are some young and talented ones emerging as well. The polls may be rigged, though there are fewer opportunities than before for massive illegalities. The king's party may be able to buy allegiances after the elections. But it is also possible that Pakistan's political class might surprise us with its maturity."
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#208 Posted by hamidm2 on January 18, 2008 5:54:16 am


.... a request to president john mccain: please appoint fareed zakaria as secretary of state

http://www.fareedzakaria.com/articles/articles.html
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#207 Posted by zeemax on January 18, 2008 4:25:23 am
majumdar, tahmed32,

Correct ... but this S.O.B still has one card up his sleeve, which is to have his own NRO declared illegal through his Supreme Court (ironically which exactly the previous SC would have done). and reopen all cases against Zardari to blackmail him.

He's working on that right now.

reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#206 Posted by rf786 on January 18, 2008 4:24:59 am
Re: # 203

Unfortunately for Pakistan, we have lost a great strategist and person of stature who had the charisma and gumption to carry Pakistan, meaning Benazir Bhutto. Rest of the crowd appears to be pygmies in this giant cesspool of opportunism and realpolitik. As for the PML-NS, they are already in negotiation with Musharraf & Co, so there is very little hope for any impeachment.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#205 Posted by rf786 on January 18, 2008 4:20:36 am
Re: # 202

TK

Under normal circumstances and fair political process Aitezaz would have been elected by any party. But for obvious reasons he is being sidelined:

1. He is not a Bhutto and PPP dynastic legacy demands Bhutto name and Aitezaz is well aware of that fact but had embraced it in the past.

2. Aitezaz violated party discipline when he chose to side with the lawyers and boycott elections.

3. Most worrying aspect, Aitezaz hails from Punjab and PPP cannot afford to offend its Sindhi vote bank by having a Punjabi party leader.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#204 Posted by rf786 on January 18, 2008 4:10:16 am
Re: # 195

Dear tahmed32

I totally endorse and second these thoughts. Everyone deserves a second chance, particularly those who have paid their dues to society or demonstrate signs of change. I totally agree with your thesis, BB had her shortcomings and made many mistakes in the past, but the way she carried herself against military dictatorship and their extremist cyborgs, she had earned the admiration of millions who had doubted her in the past.

Let me also add, generally speaking you have conducted yourself with utmost civility and restraint with the odd exception here and there. Certainly mark of a gentleman and deserving of respect. If I have wavered and offended it has been only because of your simplistic approach towards life, there are no good guys and bad guys in this world, like u rightfully said everyone deserves a second chance, then why not accord the same axiom to MQM? Any how, that is your prerogative, and like someone said, "I may disagree with you, but will give my life to protect your right to disagree". Thanks.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#203 Posted by majumdar on January 18, 2008 3:57:24 am
Tahmed sahib,

If indeed PPP/PML-N (who I have no doubt will corner the bulk of the seats if free and fair elections are held) can come together post elections (irrespective of who wins) and have Mushy impeached and subjected to a FREE, FAIR and OPEN trial for treason, they may well have put Pakistan on a one-way road to true democracy. Here's hoping that's what wud happen.

Regards
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#202 Posted by TaureanKhan on January 18, 2008 3:51:04 am
Sorry for getting a bit off track on this discussion.. but I can't help thinking... Where is Aitzaz Ahsan in this PPP leadership struggle and why is he not being acknowledged?I think he is a statesman with a vote bank and a refined gentleman (and he understands the Pakisani political environment)....combination of qualities not found in any other Pakistani politician..He should have been the PPP chairman!!!

T.K
Sydney, Australia
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#201 Posted by tahmed32 on January 18, 2008 3:48:24 am
majumdar #200 True. Regardless of whether it is PPP or PML-N that gets the most votes, they will no doubt see the impeachment of Musharraf as being Job 1. And they will be united in that. Musharraf is now struggling to avoid that by trying to get one of them to his side and thus avoid impeachment, which could very well result in not just his removal from office but also having the criminal law book thrown at him. So, how this all plays out is anyone's guess at this stage.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#200 Posted by majumdar on January 18, 2008 3:41:54 am
Tahmed sahib,

It is not necessary for a leader to have personal following in all states. For instance if either PPP or PML-N could cobble together a pre-election alliance of regional parties (and then win it) as is common in India since 1996, they could create the same impact as that of a nation-wide alliance.

Regards
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#199 Posted by tahmed32 on January 18, 2008 3:38:14 am
zeemax #197 True. Benazir seems to have united Pakistanis in her death. All except Musharraf - who, true to form, made stupid and gratuitous remarks about how her death was her "own fault", forgetting that what he saw as a "fault" the rest of her countrymen, and indeed the rest of the world, sees quite rightly as a strength - namely, physical courage.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#198 Posted by tahmed32 on January 18, 2008 3:32:31 am
the article i mention in #196 is

Beyond Elections: Searching for Leadership in Pakistan
by Shuja Nawaz, Huffingtonpost.com

Excerpts:

...Pakistan is desperately searching for a new leadership that could set the agenda for a return to national unity and democracy. ...Bhutto, with her support in all four provinces, promised them that transnational leadership. That is why her loss will be a major blow to Pakistan's political development and survival. ...... General Kayani, a professional soldier, has hinted at the power of the people to influence events in Pakistan when he told his senior-most generals recently that "Ultimately it is the will of the people and their support that is decisive."...He may have to give a clearer public statement of the army's support for whatever government emerges in post-election Pakistan...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/shuja-nawaz/beyond-elections-searchi_b_81886.h tml
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#197 Posted by zeemax on January 18, 2008 3:23:56 am
#195 Posted by tahmed32,

Ref your remark as well as Beena's eulogy, if Benazir had been so brave, she shold have come back before the NRO was signed and sealed. After all, she was never in any forced exile.

She was brave in death though ... I admire that.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#196 Posted by tahmed32 on January 18, 2008 3:23:45 am
pavocavalry #191 That is a great write-up you provided along with your post. As the attached article indicates, Kiyani seems to be making the right but cautious moves by reminding generals verbally that they any army needs popular support to be effective. Even more significantly, he has reminded his generals - in writing - that as military officers they may not communicate directly with the President without requesting his permission. Has the army finally learnt something? Let us hope so.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#195 Posted by tahmed32 on January 18, 2008 3:14:17 am
beenasarwar #193 you write "Even if all the allegations about her corruption and arrogance are true, one should keep in mind that she was active in politics for thirty years, out of which she was in power only for four and a half years. The rest of the time she struggled against two of the most well entrenched military dictators in the region."

While Benazir had serious shortcomings, she has more than paid the nation back for these with her bold step in returning to Pakistan to face Musharraf backed by a mighty force of a large standing army and police, the ISI (whose main task seems to be to crush any attempts by the Pakistani people to breathe free), and global terrorists like ben laden and zawahiri. This bold step to move Pakistan out of Musharraf's clutches was (for me, and no doubt for millions of Pakistanis) more than enough to redeem her. In losing her life in the process after making the beautiful Last Speech that called for all Pakistanis to unite as one, Benazir has not just redeemed herself, she has become a figure of historical proportions, loved and remembered by Pakistanis in the years and decades and centuries to come.

And her husband may have been Mr. 10%, the fact is that he did spend 11 years or so in prison. He too has paid his debt to society for his shenanigans, and like any citizen who has done his time he too deserves a second chance. Even though he started off on the wrong foot in his haste to take over the party chairmanship, he has matched that by coming out loud and clear in his opposition to Musharraf.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#194 Posted by rf786 on January 18, 2008 2:07:23 am
Enclosed is a pertinent piece on the Sharif's, a little outdated yet worth reading.

{Shahbaz Sharif: back to future?
Shahid Anwar

Sharifs are neither a revolutionary stuff like Imam Khomeini nor democrats. They can play any card to get in power corridors, however. From commercialization of politics (through bribes and horse-trading) to Punjabism and Islamism, they have used every thing that served their political interests.

Shahbaz Sharif’s likely return to Pakistan is talk of the town. Has he got the ‘signal’ from the powers that be or he has mustered enough courage and strength to defy them? Would his return herald a new democratic era? Answer to these futuristic questions may lie in the past.

The story of Sharifs rise to power in1980s and fall in1999, followed by their exile, is conspicuously marked with clandestine deals with the establishment. The big brother emerged to political scene as blue eyed boy of General Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq, after General Jilani ‘picked’ him as finance minister of Punjab. He became chief minister of Punjab thanks to active and obvious support of his mentor—General Zia. In the wake of tug of war between GHQ and Parliament, instead of strengthening the position of his own party leader Muhammad Khan Jonejo, the then Prime Minister of Pakistan, Nawaz turned against him and allied with his true masters in Khaki. As the chief minister of Punjab during the first Benazir government in Islamabad, he never accepted and honored her democratic mandate. For the first time in history, he played the ‘Punjab card’ and tried to arouse ‘Punjabi chauvinism’ against a Sindhi Prime minister—Benazir Bhutto. To buy the loyalties of MNA’s during No-trust move against Benazir, he indulged in horse-trading at massive scale.

During the days of his hyper activity to dislodge Ms Bhutto, he was decoyed to a rest house in Murree to final the deed with some PPP’s leaders—apparently for sale. Had Mian Zahid Sarfraz not prevented him to reach the site, he would have been arrested red handed by the Intelligence Bureau in operation named ‘midnight jackal’. During both of his terms as PM, he misruled the country, shattered economy and financial institutions with populist gimmicks, and victimized opposition. The husband of his ‘political sister’, now, remained in Jail during his rule. Sharifs effectively undermined the freedom of press and independence of judiciary. To the shame of nation, they masterminded and executed a successful physical assault of the highest court of Pakistan. Encouraged by getting the superior judiciary humiliated, apparently subordinated army, and docile presidency, Nawaz Sharif did attempt to become ‘Ameer-ul-Momineen’ through abortive fifteenth amendment to the constitution.

All this is now a dark and sad part of our checkered history but probably not the part of our collective memory. Therefore now we are told day after day that Sharifs are getting increasingly impatient to ‘serve’ us again. The impressions created by the current media hype on possibility of Sharifs’ come back portray an amusing picture. A section of media wants us to believe that all the ills of polity and democracy are caused by ‘illegal and unconstitutional’ exile of ‘genuine leaders of people’. These ailments will be cured the moment Sharifs and Ms. Bhutto land on the soil of Pakistan. No one seems ready to recall the state of affairs during their rule. As if all were milk and honey when they had been in the helm of affairs. Of course nothing can be farther from truth than these rosy assumptions.

Sharifs are neither a revolutionary stuff like Imam Khomeini nor democrats. They can play any card to get in power corridors, however. From commercialization of politics (through bribes and horse-trading) to Punjabism and Islamism, they have used every thing that served their political interests. They had been discredited much before they lost power largely due to their own follies. The only thing goes to their credit is that people are short on memory. So they can expect a hero’s welcome if and when they are back home. We are ready to give them a free ride once again, this time in the name of democracy and grand reconciliation.

Still the misdeeds of anyone do not disqualify him or her from having a fair treatment under the law of the land. The principle of rule of law demands equal treatment for any one irrespective of his or her status. Islam also strictly stands for the same. In this regard the very deal under which the Sharifs were allowed to leave was (favorably) discriminatory unconstitutional and illegal. No common man charged with terrorist acts like hijacking, and also convicted by a court, can be awarded with such a ‘punishment’ of safe exit to foreign country. No Sharifs-sympathizer then questioned this violation of law of land. Rather it was then interpreted as sign of divine blessing that Sharifs were ‘called’ into the Holy Land.

But now in the changed circumstances Sharifs seemingly want to test the political waters. The current media frenzy will not go along for to far. If Mr. Shahbaz Sharif finally decides to come back, he will have to face some hard realities on ground. It is naïve to believe that he can break into power corridors without reaching some ‘understanding’ with the military. If he comes to terms with army he will lose much of his populist appeal. Anyway, his return is not going to be an earth-shaking event. No revolution is in offing. }
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#193 Posted by beenasarwar on January 18, 2008 1:43:15 am
Here's an excellent piece by Mohammed Hanif, a gifted writer who has worked as a reporter with Newsline, scripted a feature film, and heads the BBC Urdu Service – `My Benazir
Murder Fantasy'. The entire article is worth reading but this part jumped out at me:
"…Any sudden death can tinge one's memory and judgment but there are certain facts about her which are conveniently ignored. Even if all the allegations about her corruption and arrogance are true, one should keep in mind that she was active in politics for thirty years, out of which she was in power only for four and a half years. The rest of the time she struggled against two of the most well
entrenched military dictators in the region. The reason we don't see very many dossiers on the financial corruption during General Zia and General Musharraf's regimes is that when Bhutto was in power the intelligence agencies went into over drive documenting or sometimes inventing her misdemeanours. When the generals or their cronies are
in power all the intelligence leaks just dry up…"
Full text at: http://sacredmediacow.com/?p=1012.
Also see Editor The Nation, Arif Nizami's piece on the ground realities that have drastically changed in recent months, and Benazir's will that Zardari's opponents have been insisting is forged - "Need for a breather: Benazir Bhutto's will is genuine", The Nation, Thursday, 17 Jan 2008 - http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/jan-2008/17/index1.php
Nizami has a credible reputation and there is further significance in the fact that this article was published in a paper from an ideologically driven (right-wing) media group that has traditionall supported the 'establishment'.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#192 Posted by Iseered on January 18, 2008 1:05:21 am
Ms. Beena, and I quote
"Is Bilawal about to run the country? Aren’t there other more important issues at hand than who heads the PPP? "

Important issues PPP is supposedly the largest political party in Pakistan and you have the audacity to say there are more important issues... It's the captain of a ship that steers the course not the other way round...

A 19 year old as the head of a political party of a nation as volatile as Pakistan!!!!!! It's not the middle ages or for that matter we are not having Mohammad Bin Qasim reincarnation.... so please stick to facts and not emotional rhetoric...

Believe you me I am also saddend by Ms. Bhutto's death but that does not excuse the fact that there a 140 million people's life at stake...

So get down from your high horse and see the reality...
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#191 Posted by pavocavalry on January 18, 2008 12:44:47 am
M/s Beena :-- What you are saying is right but the great tragedy and irony is that the USA has consistently supported the " Dirty Tricks Brigade" . Another great tragedy is that another " Dirty Tricks Brigade" assasinated the great Murtaza Bhutto.

The second fact is that the political forces of Pakistan have consistently failed to launch an armed insurrection or a revolution to remove the tinpot Paki generals who usurped power.

Below is an article I wrote and was published in NATION,Lahore in December 2003.

29 DEC 2003

NATION


WHY PAKISTAN DOES NOT NEED GENERALS

A.H Amin


While pessimism is not the right attitude , what can a country exploited for more than half its history by self styled field marshals , military usurpers , ex political agents and windbag spineless prime ministers kicked upwards by military intelligence agencies,have any other attitude than pessimism !

While the Khalsa was Sikh by religion and driven by an anti Muslim legacy , the supposed army of the post 1947 land of pure was created not to make defence housing authorities but to defend the country ! Not to assasinate constitutions but to draft a sound military strategy to defend the first major ideological state of modern Islamic world ! While the soldiers miserably failed in strategy in both 1965 and 1971 they did brilliantly well in usurping power and in conspiring against elected prime ministers , whether it was subverting the 1956 or 1973 constitution or launching a Quixotic military manouvre propelled by personal ambition , as was the case in Kargil !


For those sycophants who cite Pakistan's success in facing the Indian mobilisation of 2001-2 as a success of Musharrafs great so called strategic insight , one may safely state that Pakistan was saved because of the Nuclear programme initiated by Mr Bhutto and finalised by Nawaz Sharif rather than by any other conventional non nuclear deterrrent !

As far as Pakistan's raised so called international profile in international forums is concerned , all thanks go to the planners of the 9/11 attacks rather than any diplomatic insight on part of Musharraf or his team , since the same Musharraf before 9/11 was regarded as a liability in Western diplomatic eyes !


The so called cowardly assasination attempt on Musharraf is too complicated an affair and may have been planned by intelligence sleuths as an ulterior event in order to get more anti terrorism aid from USA and to further project Mushharraf as the West's blue eyed man in Pakistan !


As far as leadership producing institutions in Pakistan are concernede it is debatable to state that there are three institutions in the country that can produce leadership: The political class, the bureaucracy, and the armed forces. Firtsly the army did not produce first rate higher leadership and the 1965 and 1971 and even kargil wars were fought by motivated majors and colonels led by phenomenally barren generals! In 1965 Pakistan Army failed to achieve any breakthrough despite massive numerical and material superiority in Khem karan ! Chawinda ,Chamb etc were basically cases of unit level daring and confusion rather than cases of triumph of higher strategic leadership ! Indian historian gurcharan Singh admitted that only 25 Cavalry alone saved Pakistan in 1965 ! As far as the political class's potential to produce leadership is concerned the army and the bureaucracy never allowed this class to fully realise its potential thanks to repeated military interventions and bureaucratic Byzantine manoeuvres !

As far as feudal politics is concerned researches of various notable analysts like Hamza Alavi and qbal Ahmed prove that the military junta and the feudals were natural allies since 1947 and the same state persists to date !

Again it would be a fallacy to equate Musharraf with degaulle or Mustafa Kemal ! Degaulle did not usurp power but won elections ! Kemal won his laurels at gallipoli in battle and was acknowledged by Briti9sh official history as the man who changed the course of history ! On the other hand musharraf won his laurels in syndicate rooms of staff college and defence college and did not see action in both 1965 and 1971 war .


What is happening is that the Pakistani military junta aided by US experts and US citizens like Shaukat Aziz are agents of change implementing the new US grand strategic agenda of creating strategic meekness and docility in the Third worlds leadership and finally denuclearising [Pakistanh at some stage ! All that was created since 1947 may be very subtly reduced to insignificance if the Musharraf regime continues at its present pace ! A state manipulated by CIA ,FBI NSA and Pentagon and acting as USA 's tactical garbage collector in West Asia.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#190 Posted by jayp on January 17, 2008 11:28:55 pm
"FLOUR TESTS: Taking notice of sale of substandard flour in the market, the FFC has asked paramilitary forces to collect flour samples from their respective areas and send them to laboratories for quality tests."

The above is from Dawn of today. As the para military are surrendering to the jihadis, the pak govt has found an alternate job for them.

There is no free lunch for any one in pakistan. Surrender is no more an option for pak paramilitary, they have to collect samples.

Long live pakistan.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#189 Posted by jayp on January 17, 2008 11:23:03 pm
Educated pakistani

1. A highly educated pakistani, a mid level executive at Citi Bank was made the finance minister and then the prime minister of pakistan. With a dictatorial rule he could have done anything for teh good of pakistan. He did not add a single KW of power generation capacity during his 8 years in power. Was he educated or simply schooled.

2. Pak railways imports diesel engines from China after several technical evaluations. The last major crash of teh train was because teh engines were too heavy for teh tracks. Now the tracks have to be changed to use the engines. The spcialists, teh engineers who reviewed the engine, where they educated or schooled.

3. Hardly any of the pak interactors on chowk appear to be educated. It is these educated pakistanis, they are the bane of pakistan.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#188 Posted by jayp on January 17, 2008 11:16:16 pm
The true nature of pak soldiers.

In pakistan people join the military enamored by the wealth and influence of the generals and hoping that they can get a share of it, however minute. The training and the work they do, helping the jihadis, running WAPDA etc eventually creates a mind set that to be in the military is to enjoy power and and have an easy life.

That is why the military, para military...you name it are surrendering and or abandoning their posts, because they never thought that they will have to fight.

A few colnels and 200 troops surrendered to a few rag tag jihadis. Now two camps have been over run, manned by the para military, simply because the army will not dare to move.

Where is YLH with the Chuck Jaeger comments. Finally there is a situation, people hate the military and the military knows that they can only deal with un-armed civilians.

No Pakistani, no educated pakistani wants to accept the reality. Pak army has only surrendered, the 1947 kashmir invasion was carried out by the tribals, and now they are invading pakistan.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#187 Posted by ijaz_gul on January 17, 2008 8:22:38 pm
'exaggerated threat perception versus Exaggerated Indispensibility' was my thesis on which a University in Turkey held a Seminar. I repaste a para.

C. Cem OĞUZ
Pakistan's Gen. Pervez Musharraf's highly controversial actions since Nov.3 have caused remarkable discontent both inside Pakistan and among the international community. It is actually widely believed that his move basically stemmed from his fear that the Supreme Court was about to declare his re-election while in uniform unconstitutional. Musharraf, in turn, justified his actions by pointing to the deterioration of law and order in the country. In response to growing international criticism, on the other hand, he presented the measures he took as part of his attempts to save the country from the menace of terrorism. The enigma henceforth should be, as posed by analyst Ijaz Gul, whether Musharraf has in fact become “a victim of his exaggerated threat perception or exaggerated indispensability.”

http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=91051
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#186 Posted by nasah on January 17, 2008 7:21:50 pm
Brayings of that pathetic Donkey Musharraf:

"Answering Newsweek’s Fareed Zakaria’s question if he thought he was the best “person to fight this war against the jihadis”, General (retd) Musharraf said: “The United States thought Benazir was the right person to fight terrorists. Who is the best person to fight?

You need three qualities today if you want to fight the extremists and the terrorists. Number one, you must have the military with you. Well, she was very unpopular with the military. Very unpopular.

Number two, you shouldn’t be seen by the entire religious lobby to be alien — a nonreligious person.

The third element: don’t be seen as an extension of the United States. Now I am branded as an extension, but not to the extent she was.

Pakistanis know that I can be tough. I can speak out against Hillary Clinton. I can speak out against anyone. These are the elements. You be the judge.”(DAWN -- Kashfi)

do we still want to know what killed Benazir? Wait till Hillary becomes the President -- tough guy.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#185 Posted by tahmed32 on January 17, 2008 5:37:56 pm
#184 alternatively, Rana Bhagwandas could invite the King to a vegetarian meal... :-)
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#184 Posted by nasah on January 17, 2008 5:29:23 pm
"KARACHI, Jan 16: Police on Wednesday withdrew ‘additional security’ from outside the home of former acting chief justice Rana Bhagwandas.

Superintendent of Police, Clifton told Dawn that the authorities had enhanced security for the former judge in view of ‘intelligence reports’."(DT)

The reliable sources said that the "additional Security" was placed around Justice Bhagwandas residence when the Honble Justice declined the invitation to go to Mecca to do the Umra as a VIP guest of the Saudi King.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#183 Posted by SRK on January 17, 2008 4:49:39 pm
HP,
"Did you watch the Pakistani umpire helping India!"

Last night i could not watch the game. From the news reports only Rogers LB decision was iffy. But there were two questionable LB decisions against India too. So far umpiring seems to be reasonably good in this match.

Why do you feel Rauf is helping India?
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#182 Posted by viqarm on January 17, 2008 4:13:54 pm
Re: # 167
"For a Pakistani citizen nothing can be more demoralising than this..."

I am not demoralized by this at all. Unless the naPak army becomes the laughing stock of the entire world the Punju lot, which generously populates it to suck the rest of the nation's blood, will not come to their senses. Pakistan will never be free, nor can it develop, unless this cancer is completely cauterized.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#181 Posted by nasah on January 17, 2008 4:12:35 pm
"WASHINGTON: House Speaker Nancy Pelosi on Wednesday praised former premier Benazir Bhutto’s “tremendous contribution to the cause of democracy”, while calling for an international investigation into her assassination and free and fair elections in Pakistan.

In an emotional address to the House, the speaker said the slain Pakistani leader possessed “remarkable optimism about the future a belief in the power of dialogue, and a strong commitment to democracy.” In the days and weeks that have followed Benazir’s death, Pelosi said, there has been little good news from Pakistan.

“The Musharraf government continues to deny the Pakistani people a full accounting of the assassination and the events that followed. There must be a strong international investigation of this despicable crime.

The best way the United States can honour the legacy of Benazir Bhutto, she proposed, is to renew its engagement DIRECTLY with the people of Pakistan" (Khalid Hasan)

NOT through Musharraf sahib -- and that's what the Democrats are going to do to Musharraf miaN -- make him absolutely dispensable.

"Aur bhi ghum hain zamanay meiN Musharraf kay sewaa"
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#180 Posted by anil on January 17, 2008 3:59:39 pm
=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#179 Posted by masadi on January 17, 2008 3:37:41 pm
There is no place on earth where life rigged by rules made for you by others, can become so boring and meaningless as the US, forcing you to turn to useless consumption for "meaning", it is for this reason that over 60 percent of the public in the US looks like jabba the hut, including hamid and tahmed, as if sitting around in a coffee shop all day long sipping lattes and gazing at the waitress who reeks of smoke and cigarettes is some kind of "existence"...
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#178 Posted by masadi on January 17, 2008 3:31:17 pm
HP mian return to the homeland...
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#177 Posted by masadi on January 17, 2008 3:30:49 pm
The US is perfect for people like tahmed, people of shallow morals and backstabbers and rank racists. In fact if someone wants to curse his kind, curse them with perpetual existance in the meaningless life in the human hell hole the US that is sold to the world as some kind of heaven...
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#176 Posted by masadi on January 17, 2008 3:28:10 pm
HP writes "There are many instances in history when groups of people decided to leave their homeland and ended up never owning a land"

You need to return to Pakistan man, leave the godforsaken shithole the US of A, a disgrace to all things civilized and human. Return to Pakistan we need you here, life is more meaningful and of substance unlike the BS in the US
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#175 Posted by masadi on January 17, 2008 3:20:59 pm
tahmed writes " Benazir will forever be the Daughter of Pakistan who gave her life for the cause of Pakistan."

The only reason why this snake supports BB (when he has said horrible things about ZAB in the past) is because she was hobnobbing with the Shaitan towrads the end of her life, and this idiot worships the shaitan. That she realized the shenanigans of the US elite and was coming round to her father's legacy at the very end, considering principles of greater worth than US whoring around with the dictators is why the US in congruence with the Pak Army and insiders like Zardari got rid of her...That this swine who sides with her murderes is now trying to float some "cause of Pakistan" is just plain sickening. The very souls of such people like tahmed are dirty. May Allah ruin them.....

reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#174 Posted by arjun_4 on January 17, 2008 1:59:19 pm
=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#173 Posted by Pew_Research on January 17, 2008 12:04:33 pm
OK. Boys and girls, Who made this speech?

"I say that Hindu leadership is still harping on the same old story that we are a minority and that they are willing to give all the safeguards according to the principle laid down by the League of Nations. I read this formula to-day laid down by a great Hindu leader, who spoke at the Hindu Minorities Conference that was going on yesterday in this city. Let me tell my friends, the Hindu leaders, that the League of Nations is dead. Don't you know that yet?

Let me tell them, they are living at least a quarter of a century behind. Not only that, but you do not realise that the entire face of the world is being changed from week to week and from month to month in the European and other fields of battle. And a nation must have territory. "
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#172 Posted by HP on January 17, 2008 11:59:46 am
And btw,
This has already been reported in Pakistani papers...You missed them last night..didn't you? Did you watch the Pakistani umpire helping India!

reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#171 Posted by HP on January 17, 2008 11:57:12 am
This is what the Navy Adm. William J. Fallon said.

“Pakistan is taking a more welcoming view of U.S. suggestions for using American troops to train and advise its own forces in the fight against anti-government extremists, the commander of U.S. forces in that region said Wednesday.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/16/A R2008011601238.html

You are in a such a hurry to run with the half news that you can’t even research it well. The US is training and advising Pakistan for a while. Idiot, the US has bases in Pakistan, in Jacobad and Baluchistan.

Give me something that is new…. Do you know how to read a blog? Ever tried checking the links in blogs?
Puky research!
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#170 Posted by Pew_Research on January 17, 2008 11:43:02 am
Re: # 168 HP

The Surge Hits Pakistan

The surge is about to hit Pakistan. The top U.S. commander for the Middle East says that the deteriorating situation in the country and the increased violence in the frontier area have prompted Islamabad to accept plans for U.S. forces in the country for the first time since early 2002. Meanwhile, a top counter-terrorism diplomat says the situation has become so dire, the United States cannot afford to wait.


http://blog.washingtonpost.com/earlywarning/2008/01/the_surge_hits_ pakistan.html?nav=rss_blog

That's not a Paki newspaper!
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#169 Posted by Pew_Research on January 17, 2008 11:35:03 am
Re: # 167 Indian

Can Musharraf use his 'strategic assets' (and I am not referring to his swagger and braggadocio here, but to his nukes) to 'take out' these guys like he 'took out' that Bugti fellow in Baluchistan?
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#168 Posted by HP on January 17, 2008 11:32:56 am
#167
"For a Pakistani citizen nothing can be more demoralising than this."

You are not the first Indian to post this here. Why all of you think only you read Pakistani papers? It must be demoralizing for you to not find anything to read in your own papers.

What is so demoralizing about it? There is an insurgency going on there. It is not that Indian soldiers don't get mauled down and mangled in Assam and Kashmir.

These half educated nincompoops post news here as if they are the only one reading papers. Idiot!

Flame the casbah!

reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#167 Posted by Indian on January 17, 2008 11:02:56 am
For a Pakistani citizen nothing can be more demoralising than this.

Soldiers flee second Pakistani post after threats from militants


ISLAMABAD, Jan 17 (AP) Dozens of Pakistani troops abandoned an outpost near
the border with Afghanistan Thursday after receiving threats from militants,
an intelligence official, a local resident and a spokesman for the insurgents said.
However, an army spokesman immediately denied that the post at Saklatoi in South Waziristan