US Conspiracy to Destablize Pakistan?

anil writes "get their undies in a knot when anyone mentioned the crusades.."

Because the present-day crusaders use the similar bs and terminology when they rape Muslim lands today...

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Re: # 509

Dear bubba

I am not sure how u came to that conclusion but rest assured that certainly is not the case. Arabs/Muslims are guilty of the same crime but u cannot equate them with the European/Christian imperialism.

anil,

Mohar had raised a point that if the Chinese do that, it will not be good for their people because ther've been 80,000 riots over there. I don't know if that's true since I haven't heard of a single one. The last I heard was in Tianamen Square in 1988 when they actually ran tanks over students.

I have seen bodies lying in the streets of Beijing from traffic accidents with no one to pick them up. Ultimately they're swept to the sides like dogs and cats so traffic can pass.

It is not easy to know the Chinese mindset.

I have been accused of being cryptic, but I really don't know how to explain.

Regards.

... of-course it depends on how they decide to go about it. The Chinese think 50 years ahead at the minimum.

Re: # 513

Zeemax sahib:

So had EU, so had Japan, and wait for a couple of jumbos. These elephants may not longer be ignored.

#502 Posted by mohar11,

China has positioned itself to do anything it wants. Pull, or push, whatever.

tahmed writes "An educated middle class is the true nation-building force in society. "

This is one of the most oft repeated banal nonsense that is mainstream because the "middle class" as soldiers and buffers employed by the elite keep the working class (of which the Middle Class is a part though they feel themselves superior) from demanding their rights. Of all the dependant classes, the middle class is most vested in mainating the status quo, and thus enhancing the power of the elite, they are the anti-democratic forces everywhere. Therefore when the elite in their myopia and greed reduce the size of the middle class by making the few distinctions between them and the working class blurry is when hope arises for the system to change. Education by itself is not a panacea, we don't need the "education"- corporate sponsored that helps the slaves adjust to their slavery, the education that is needed is the one that helps you transcend the system and challenge it, the kind of education that Hamid says has "no value".

And finally this BS about comparing US hegemony around the globe today and its destructive effects to Arab conquests of the past, long dead and gone, are mere bigotry soothing and distraction for the purpose of muddying what affects us today...Except for intellectual exercise, it is of no real concern to any of us in today's world what Arab conquerors did, not only does it not in any way justify what the US is doing today around the globe, it does not help in understanding the changed political and global economic relationships of today...

Majumdar you are confused between colonized lands and white "settler" area. The settler areas like North America, Australia etc were considered an extension of the homeland, the economic relationship and autonomy given to the settlers was also qualitatively different, and the indigeneous folk in almost all of these settler areas were wiped out wholesale. This did not happen in colonized areas because the purpose of colonization was not to establish them as white settler areas but mainly for control thorugh a small elite for markets and economic exploitation. In no post have I defended Arab conquests of other lands for whatever reason but comparing Arab conquests that were qualitatively different in the autonomy granted, in the non-exclusive and different economic system, and in the lack of wholesale genocide to the butchery of the Europeans is marked nonsense...All the lands colonized by the Europeans are in shambles except for the settler areas that were established as an extension of the homeland, compared to this the Arab conquered areas were markedly better or equally developed compared to their homeland or areas under the control of the then white cave grovellers...

Re: # 497 Posted by rf786 on January 24, 2008 2:36:21 am

Arif Sahib, for two centuries or more the arabs destroyed all the intellectual base of the conquered lands should be ignored and forgotten because then afterwards the ruling elite (non-arabs in most cases) changed their style and started contributing to the societies. Is that what the thesis of your argument is?

re: tahmed32

The inspiration, in a real and practical sense, if there was one, behind the United States Declaration of Independence and its' constitution were the acts of the English Parliament passed to limit the monarchy's power vis-a-vis the parliament.

Specifically; The Act of Habeus Corpus; the Petition of Rights; The Grand Remonstrance; the Act of Settlement; the Act of Supremacy and others, which clearly established and gave legislative power to parliament over the monarchy, including the power of taxation. These laws, also acted as the precedents upon which the colonial legistures of the thirteen American colonies operated, which later gave way to the arguments of state versus federal rights, once the British started to by-pass the colonial legislatures and started to govern the colonies by a parliamentary fiat.

The American distrust of a strong monarchy-federal government was based on their experiences under the British rule; a British parliament dominated by Lord North, the prime minister at the time, who wanted to use the colonies as markets for Britain's growing mercantalist empire.

Ciao

Re: tahmed32 # 505

I was not defending the Aztecs. I agree, the Aztecs were no boy scouts either, but I was merely replying to nkg's rather blanket admiration of the Europeans in his post # 487.

As to the Puritans, please keep in mind that the Puritans were the more exterme members of the protestants in England and were rabidly anti-Catholic and they were basically expelled from England by James I, when he succeded Elizabeth I as the king of England in 1601. The Puritans, were no angels either and their acts, as seen in the Salem Witch trials, were not enlightened but rather were regressive and barbaric. The Mayflower Compact and John Winthrophe's wish to create the "city on the hill" were religiously motivated and the Mayflower Compact did not offer the gurantees normally associated with constitutional rights and thus, should not be identified as one.

The American Declaration of Independence was more a result of the ideals of the Enlightenment and the American constitution was more inspired by the works of a Frenchman named Montesquieu (sp?) and his book; "The Spirit of Laws", which basically argued for a seperation of powers between the seperate branches of government.

The rest of your post on Pakistan is well reasoned and I agree, with its conclusions and hopes for Pakistan' future.

Ciao

Re: # 505

tahmed32

You give too much credit to the puritans, there main purpose was too bring religion to the savages and gold t their king. People who brought constitution were secularists and some would even claim atheists.

Pakistan's problem is like u rightfully said dictatorship that exploits masses through corruption and religion. What Pakistan needs is less religion and more democratic principles practiced by ALL, not just the fast escaping middle classes.

ferozk #501 What you say is quite true about spanish and portugese rule in Latin America. Mexico City is built on the ruins of Tenochtitlan, the capital of the Aztecs. With material from the largest Aztec temple used to build a church. But then, the Aztecs were no saints either - they too were a primitive society of kingships and priests, and their temples were drenched with the blood of countless victims of human sacrifice.

While Latin american nations have been built on this culture of lust for gold and wealth by ignorant plunderers and soldiers, the puritans who came to north america were among the best educated in europe. They came not to enrich themselves but to escape oppression by the King and Church of England. Even before landing in north america, they had formed the Mayflower Compact - in other words a Constitution!! In this respect, 400 years ago those people understood the importance of the rule of law better than the lawless scoundrel Musharraf and his followers do even today. These people were followed by other educated men, notably William Penn who was an idealist and introduced a democratic constitution that laid the ground for the US Constitution 150 years later.

This difference (dictatorship, and jehalyat of the spanish in Latin America vs. the push for democracy and education in North America) has led to the vast gap between these two sub-continents of the new world. Latin American "Hacienda economies" (i.e. feudal landholdings) vs the US capitalist economy stood Marx on its head by having the economy reflect the political structure of dictatorship vs democracy.

There are clearly lessons here for Pakistanis as well - An educated middle class is the true nation-building force in society. Military dictators and priests are guaranteed to keep a society from moving forward. Over the past 60 years, India has taken the US route (due to educated middle class types like Nehru who understood the importance of the constitution), while Pakistan has been pushed the Latin American route. Our good fortune is the brave and ever-stronger middle class of Pakistan whose sacrifices in 2007 could very well mark the time Pakistan switched from the South American track to the US track.

it's like saying - if all pakis just refuse to drive their cabs then we all will be in trouble ... true, but what are the chances pakis would ever do that?... even the most Mo-crazy paki knows he has to eat first...

it's the same with chinese... they are making a living by being the factory to the world, their livelihood is at stake here...