US Conspiracy to Destablize Pakistan?

Correct me If I am wrong


But Urdu started getting Patronage only after EIC established Fort William at Calcuta after 1757 , and made the learning on One Local language a pre-condition for employment in EIC .

urdu closer to Official persian , yet common enough to be understood by locals as well , became favourtie.

Re: # 564
Exactly...
The source of Urdu is somewhere else and even the script. In India, we wear Coat, Tie, Suit etc...That is not Indian dress. I am not xenophobic. But claming some foreign stuff as part of our own culture is different.

Re: # 563
Ramcharitmanas is not basic literature. Is is local composure based on Ramayana. There are thousands of such literature.
Abhigyan Sakuntalam has inspired so many other authors.That is the greatness of these creations.

Sanskrit was not supposed to be for common purpose dialect. It is mother of all Indian languages ( except Urdu). Each Indian language is inter related and that is Sanskrit.
More people from India travel to Mecca than Kalighat. Dies that make Mecca as part of India?

Urdu is linguistically different from Indian languages, I have specified earlier(script,grammer, phonetics, alphabet)( Oriya, Ahamiya, Bengali etc...).

nkg:

If Urdu belongs to any country, it belongs to India. It is in India that this language was developed, regardless of it drawing upon Arabic, Farsi and Turki for a substantial part of its vocabulary; it is here that its literature, poetry, fiction were developed; it is here that it is still spoken by the largest number of people, especially if you consider Urdu and Hindi to be essentially the same, as I do.

Nkg,

And what about Tulsidas-Ramcharitmanas. More people have read Ramcharitmanas and Meera's bhajans than read Abhigyan Shakuntalam.

As far as Urdu is considered, it is completely mutually intelligible with Hindi. More Indians speak and understand Urdu than Sanskrit or Ahamiya. But I presume you wud not count Indian Muslims as Indians, wud you?

Regards

Re: # 561
I am looking greatness...
Like- Vyasdev-Mahabharata
Valmiki-Ramayana
Kalidasa- Kumarsambhaba, Abhigyan Sakuntalam...

Which has inspired so many other languages....
If knowledge Farsi/Arabic/Urdoo people qualifies Indianness, then I beg to pardon, then you will find large number of them in India. Ask the modern poets/writers in your state. Whether they know it?

As per my knowledge Sanskrit/Prakrit is mother of all Indian languages.

I have already provided with example of - R N Tagore...who bloomed during British period.

Urdu is definitely structurally different than Indian Language. Large number of people in India can speak and write in English. That does not qualify English as Indian Language...Can you please list the similarities of Urdu/Farsi with Indian language (Bengali, Gujrati, Oriya etc...)?
Mumbai movie is definitely very popular. Qualatively, it is very poor and collective contribution of Bengali, Tamil, Malayalam etc. commercial movies...or poor copies of Hollywood movies. Now a days these people copy european movies also...

Nkg,

(Urdo and Persian is not Indian Language.)

Tulsidas, Surdas, Meerabai, Kabir, Abdul-rahim-Khani-Khanan, Bihari, Raskhan and Malik Mohhammad Jayasi all wrote in Hindi and to the best of my knowledge Hindi is very much an Indian language.

Back to Urdu. Urdu is very much an Indian language (although Farsi not so), it is the mother tongue of millions of Indians, lots of literary stuff has been written in it including by Hindus. Among many North Indians and Punjabi Hindus and Sikhs too for long, Urdu was considered the language that respectable folk spoke and wrote in. Much of its vocabulary and grammar is shared with Hindi and the language is completely intelligible to Hindi speakers.

And if it still ain't Indian, all of Bollywood music (our so-called soft power) ain't Indian either. So you decide!!!

(What are the great creation of these poets?)

If you dont know these poets or their creation, then you dont know much about India's history or culture. And if you dont know about India's heritage there is no point in blaming others for destroying our culture.

Regards

Re: # 558
Urdo and Persian is not Indian Language. Does it matches with any of our regional languages? Structurally these 2 are altogether different than Indian languages ( Bengali, Marathi, Gujrati, Oriya, Ahamiya, Punjabi, Telegu, Kannada etc...).
What are the great creation of these poets?

Re: # 557
EIC rule was definitely very bad period for India ( Upto 1856). But, the situation improved after British Govt. taken over the reign. Economically, EIC and British people weakened us. But, the way India was plunging during moslem period, it would have created little difference there. I can see qualitative jump in Education, Health and other sectors with the arrival of British in Bengal.

Nkg,

#556,

(Please provide evidence of nice poetry during Mughals etc...)

Lots of Urdu, Persian poetry in Muslims era like Amir Khusro etc. But since u dont consider Muslim culture as culture I will quote a few Hindu names and a few Muslims who wrote about Hindu themes as well.

Tulsidas, Surdas, Meerabai, Kabir, Abdul-rahim-Khani-Khanan, Bihari, Raskhan, Malik Mohhammad Jayasi

Regards

nkg #: ...the discussion of whether british were beneficial to india or harmful is a long one......i used to think they were beneficial, but the more, "factual" history of south asia i read, the more my opinion has changed......

....i think the british were harmful to the areas constituting present-day india, but they were beneficial to the areas constituting pakistan.....

..they were, definitely, disastrous to the areas constituting bangladesh; considering the fact that they starved a huge portion of the bengali population to death; not to mention the fact that when the british invaded, bengal was one of the wealthiest places in asia, if not the world......when the british left, and till today, it is one of the poorest areas in the world....

one thing people need to keep in mind is that south asia was only ruled by the british for the last 90 years......prior to that, it was ruled by a corporation, listed in england.....the east india company......this would be the equivalent of general electric or microsoft taking over and colonizing a country.....this company had three armies of its own, in india, with over 100,000 soldiers in each.....it had its own ceo in england!!......

and corporations only have interest in one thing: profit....they will exploit their labor as much as they can, if there are no laws in place......the famines in bengal are equivalent to genocides.....i am always surprised they get so little mention in the history of the world.....and there is so little literature on them, when, in fact, there is so much on the holocaust, and now the armenian genocide......

why was british rule beneficial for the areas, currently, in Pakistan....primarily because there would have been no Pakistan, had the british army not conquered various parts of afghanistan, and included it into India.......moreover, this part of the world was actually quite backwards and did gain from the british infrastructure etc.....punjab had an extremely modern army, under ranjit singh, but was quite poorly administrated.......

.....to get an understanding of the advancement of south asia, one needs to consider the following: when the british invaded, south asia was a major contributor to the world's economy.......when they left, it was in shambles economically......when the british invaded, they fought some of their toughest battles, anywhere in the world, agaisnt south asian militaries - marthas, haider ali, tipu sultan, sikh army in punjab and even the 1857 battles........when they left, south asia had no independently run military with a local leadership.......

Re: # 553
Please provide evidence of nice poetry during Mughals etc...
Entire cow-belt (UP, Bihar etc...) is now devoid of any culture which roots to that period (after 12th century).
Any such instituion in Northern India from that period?
Post Vedic era, we have Kalidasa, Banabhatta etc...

Forgot to correct nkg on Kerala - Kerala was never ruled but fully occupied for 1000 continuous years by Islamic rules. Cochin being a way stop for spices from Moluccas, Zamorin found it useful to make money ~ 15% tax on spices from Moluccas eventually which went to Gulf, further enroute to EU. Arab horses were a frequent form of payment and the Chera rules made a fast buck of flicking cash off neighbourhood Pallavas, Cholas selling the arab horses. (This is based on inscriptions as well- please head to Jewtown , Cochin and so some travel - could do the body and mind good)

Forgot to correct nkg on Kerala - Kerala was never ruled but fully occupied for 1000 continuous years by Islamic rules. Cochin being a way stop for spices from Moluccas, Zamorin found it useful to make money ~ 15% tax on spices from Moluccas eventually which went to Gulf, further enroute to EU. Arab horses were a frequent form of payment and the Chera rules made a fast buck of flicking cash off neighbourhood Pallavas, Cholas selling the arab horses. (This is based on inscriptions as well- please head to Jewtown , Cochin and so some travel - could do the body and mind good)

Discussions such as the one by nkg # 543 are quite useless because they ignore a fundamental fact that History has to be viewed from a lens of multiple influences and epochs. If you just take Literature , for example, Vedic ages produced outstanding litertaure followed by outstanding poetry by early Sultanate (influenced by local colour). Birth of regional languages was in 11-13th centuries and until then, the mergeing of languages, Farisee, local Sanskrit (spoken now only by the creamy top layer of Brahmins) and the language of the masses - Prakrit, Pali, Magadhi....All of the languages produced outstanding poetry, supported by Lodhis and certainly later by Mughals - Akbar, and how cna you forget the last Mughal? Libraries at Damashk, Cairo, Tunis, Elazek, East Kurish regions....speak of an abiding love for written word by followers of Islam.

Ultimately, love for the Word is an universal one and denying it or having it ascribed to one caste/reloigion/country is incorrect.

Re: # 549
Please ignore these articles from Hindu or so called secular historians. The local inscriptions and folk tale gives you the proper insight of it. Go to Mysore and learn from local people (Kannadigas).
Indian media tries to prove Mughals were good and British people were bad. How come the UP, Northern MP, Bihar has suddenly stopped producing poets, scientists, mathematicians after arrival of moslems? Nobody will try to answer these questions.
How come there are no large tample/mutt in UP, Bihar and North MP, where as there are large number of such institutions in South MP, AP, Karnataka, TN, Orissa?

Re: # 543
You on the other hand want to discount all of that because you i) want to tell us that British colonization was what "developed" India, when it ruined it totally ii) are an anti-Muslim bigot. Neither i) nor ii) qualifies as any kind of scholarship, it qualifies as ignorance and you with your factless BS are one of the biggest ignoramuses on this site.

Ans:- Arrival of British has infused fund and skill in the following areas
1. Education - They have established medical,engineering colleges and universities. Within a span of 90 years (1857-1947), they have created nice educational infrastructure, which is still the base of India's education system. I am not seeing anything such created by moslems.
In fact, the education system was destroyed by islamic invaders. The literature was one of the areas, which revived after British arrival. They have promoted eductaion and science. During British period, we have got luminaries like R N Tagore, Bankim Chatterjee,Sir M V, C V Raman, S N Bose ( boson particle named after him), J C Bose....
Please provide such examples regarding moslems...
2. Public Works Department- Construction of Roadways and Railways. Creation of new cities. I have evidence of moslems destroying cities ( Hampi...) and renaming existing cities with some Urdu/Arabic name (Karnavati-Ahemadabad,Karnasubarna-Murshidabad, Vijayanagar/Golkanda-Hyderabad etc...). Destroying temple and looting the wealth (Kashi, Mathura, Somnath). Even Thirupati, the most revered temple in India was shifted to the top of a hill in a cluster of 7 hills, to protect it from the barbaric moslems.
I have no evidence of such barbarism committed by British rulers. Please provide evidence...

3. Defence - Entire defence industry in India has its root to British period.

With British people, India was introduced to the European Renaissance (Industry, Art, Literature...). Afghanistan is the perfect example of how islam can be destructive.

Rocket:-
http://inventors.about.com/od/rstartinventions/a/Rocke ts.htm

Please talk with example and evidence...

Masadi sahib,

(If someone claims "way back" ancestory from Iraq which matters not because in the middle is all local stuff, that does not mean he is in someway "ashamed" of local ethnicity. )

I am not accusing you of being ashamed of being local and hence inventing Iraqi ancestry. You are quite a learned man and from your own post understand quite fair, so you are certainly not telling tales. But if millions and millions of ordinary Pakis start inventing foreign ancestors then there is something wrong.

(Majumdar you are confused between colonized lands and white "settler" area.)

No, I am not. And as you have rightly pointed out settler colonialism was achieved by extreme cruelty (wholescale genocide) and I have pointed out as much to NKG.

Regards

It is now recognised by Indian scientists who have worked on the subject that Tipu Sultan's Mysore kingdom was the first to apply scientific principles to test and perfect rocket and missile technology. The Tiger of Mysore had 27 brigades or Kushoons and thus Tipu's army was the first to have a rocket brigade in modern times. These rockets were extensively used in 1792 and were the cause of the British setback. In fact, some of the rockets fired by Tipu's men are preserved in the Artillery Museum at Woolwich in London. Tipu's rockets had a range of nearly 2 km.

http://www.hindu.com/2006/07/22/stories/2006072203542200.htm

http://idv.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/18/1/61

#545 Your question about libraries "http://www.urducouncil.nic.in/urdu_wrld/o_kha/Historical%20Overview.htm&am p;am p;am p;qu ot;

If you are trying to prove from your contrived "sincere" bs that "Muslims" of the Middle Ages were anti-learning then you need to read your history more closely, and the libraries of the Maghreb that rivalled and excelled any libraries around the globe at the time, not to mention were it not for the "open minded" transmission by Arab and Muslim scientists the European rennaissance would never have become a reality in the progression of knowledge.

#546- give it up, the use of rockets successfully in the battlefield first occurred in India and it totally dessimated the British and was much advanced than anything they could muster. These are historical facts, and bigotry cannot counter them.

Re: # 543
Rocket and solid propellent was invented in China.
Tipu and all were foot soldiers of Mysore Kingdom (Wodeyars). Due to internal turmoil in the royal family, they had taken control of the Kingdom and wreked havoc on Iyengars. British people kicked these ruffians and re-instated the King. Please read the history of Mysore kingdom.

Did any of the mughal kings build a single
library? May be sultanates did? How about
Ghori or Gazanavi or Talpurs or Soomros?
Or numerous southern Shahis or Qasims?
I have not heard or read, so I am asking.
As it is I do not know much.

I am being censored by CHOWK STAFF. My ilogs the newest and latest being posted do not show up on the front page. Nobody knows of them and nobody can read them. This is a very stupid way of secretly trying to censor someone. I demand that this BS be fixed.

#541 you are an ignoramus you need to read the history of the British wars with Haider ali and Tipu, first time rockets were ever used on the battlefield and the British were totally outclassed and out tech-ed by solid fuel rockets. You on the other hand want to discount all of that because you i) want to tell us that British colonization was what "developed" India, when it ruined it totally ii) are an anti-Muslim bigot. Neither i) nor ii) qualifies as any kind of scholarship, it qualifies as ignorance and you with your factless BS are one of the biggest ignoramuses on this site.

#540 a joke devoid of any substance. India at the heels of the British colonialism would never be at the front viz a viz other nations had the Mughals done anything to stop the progress. In fact the British found it relatively easy to colonize the land because it was so decentralized, autonomous and quite liberal...

The Chowk staff "dogs" are preventing me from having my ilogs display on the front page, they are immediately (instantly after posting)removed from display. This is quite outrageous

Re: # 537
Rocket technology?
These are all Chinese stuff. Most of the stuff, India use today is of British origin...
Miliraty H/W- What kind of military H/W?

Re: # 537
There was almost 0 value addition during Mughal period. What new mughals have added in textile technology? Some form of stiching etc...Indian textile industry was matured long before islamic invastion. Textile was one of the major exports from India even before Christ. India has learned quite a couple of skills from China. What was the source of technology, which mughals have contributed?
Regarding losses-
Entire Ayrveda (Medical Science) was stopped further progress and even large amount of knowledge was lost. Some very authentic Ayurvedic methods are still available in Kerala and Pune (Where Shivaji was able to protect from islamic barbarians). Kerala was never ruled by muslim rulers.
It repeats for most of the fields ( Literature, Mathematics, Astronomy...).

Arjun, learn how to read (my supposed ancestors, and the tale that goes with that, does not refer to "all Arabs") and don't put words in my mouth. I have totally f'd up your (and your friend's) arguments (or lack thereof) in trying to compare Arab conquest with European colonialism, every time you're beaten back you come up with greater than before absurdity. Give it up fool.

#534 Posted by masadi on January 24, 2008 6:59:27 pm


No, they came as immigrants.


the arabs were "immigrants" who came to india, presumably, on tourist visas..

right....

That FACT is proven by India being one of the richest most prosperous and technologically and industrially uptodate area at the heels of British colonization- refer to the textile industry as well as military hardware like rocket technology- and after British colonization being a society of railroad squatters and impoverished people who had no sense of self worth and were easily manipulated to butcher each other

In #534 read "relatively benign kind as that of India" by the Mugals, the colonization of India by the British sucked the blood out of the country and was not benign...just a clarification.

Re: # 497
That is your perception. Muslims in India try to glorify Mughal period. Even ICHR is dominated by those people and we read distorted history. But , when comes to quantify the gains, they fails to justify with evidence. I am no expert of Middle east. But for Afghanistan, Pakistan, India and Bangladesh, islamic period started the doom. And the trend continues.

arjun writes "your ancestors came from iraq as occupiers"

No, they came as immigrants. I don't support any occupation be it of the relatively benign kind as that of India or the barbaric kind as the European occupation of North America. You on the other hand use every excuse in the book to soothe your bigotry against Islam, even though you don't have brains enough to counter my arguments in the context of the baseless comparison of Arab conquest viz a viz US/European colonization and neo-imperialism...

#523 Posted by masadi on January 24, 2008 2:52:39 pm

masadi...your ancestors came from iraq as occupiers..of coruse, you think all islamic occupation was good...it's only non-muslims occupying muslim land that is bad....

#524 Posted by HP on January 24, 2008 3:03:18 pm


who went to some ghati college in Mumbai!


yup..at our ghati college in bombay, they didn't teach us network forensics tricks...like how to prove asia times as actually a front group for an intelligence agency...you know..the way you proved it...

Re: # 530

Mohar:

China's biggest challenge is what I mentioned in Deng Xiao Ping's quote. Assimilation of entire China.

India and China have co-existed for 5,000 years, what is 50 years in the life time. I was forunate to meet with Chairman of Tatung in Taipei. His collection on India of Chinese writings, painting etc. from South China was amazing. Todate, if you start looking, travelouges of Chinese are the finest testimonials anyone can write.

India and China must not compete and find to collaborate to create markets of 40% of the world's population. This will ensure no one ever domoniate the world and colonize it.

Re: # 515 zee

I have heard that from sinophiles "china thinks 50 years ahead"... if that were true, they wouldn't have gone for communism in the first place, would they? They would have known that it ain't going to work...

And let's see - they started "Great leap forward" - that killed about 20 million people, within a space of 10 years... they should have figure that one out, before leaping into that unimaginable disaster... I mean 20 million died of starvation, no less...

And if that wasn't enough - 10 years later,they started "cultural revolution"... another disaster...

Don't get me wrong - their recent achievement is very impressive... but let's not go overboard here... there are whole lot troubles lurking under the surface in that country...

HP Mian:

"...har aik muskarahat muskan nahi hoti nafrat ho ya mohabbat aasan nahi hoti...."

Your hatred truly has deep roots. Get it out, it is never too late.

Aapki samajah ke bahar hai. Lagta hai Sindh ki Ghati se bhage hain. Nafrat hi nafrat rah gayi saath mein.

heheheh... see how the Harvard business School Graduate and has an email addy to prove, writes...

Re: # 524

HP Mian:

Kitne Mother Burners aur Ganesh mutants aapko dehshad detein hain?

App "Sindh ki Ghati" ke Mother Burners aur Ganesh mutants se tou bhage hue hain. Mumbai ki Ghati ki sooch sooch kar neend haram kar rahe hain.

Your hatred is genetic. Still try to get rid of your hatred. Then you may have brain left to go beyond and pico, nano and micro analysis.

Then again Mother Burners and Ganesh mutants get you.

Re: # 521

Massaddi Mian:

Aaj mere ko gussa nahin aa raha hai. Aap se angrezie seekh leinge.

#520 Posted by masadi
“except that arjun is equal in bigotry but comparatively smarter than anil-“

hun…did you not know that the guy is a Harvard business School Graduate and has an email addy to prove that?(you can send him an email, he will respond to that. hehehe)

Isn’t that a disgrace that the HBS Graduate is not smarter than arjun, who went to some ghati college in Mumbai!

majumdar writes "And of course in many countries like Pakistan locals are ashamed of admitting that they are of local descent and start inventing mythical ancestors (from Iraq for eg)."

You are clearly turning out to be a similar idiot like arjun and anil. When it has been clearly explained to you that descent does not matter in Islam but matters totally in Hinudism and its caste ridden system, you repeat this BS. If someone claims "way back" ancestory from Iraq which matters not because in the middle is all local stuff, that does not mean he is in someway "ashamed" of local ethnicity. That is the Hindu mindset where they accepted the definition given to their ethnicity by the white man, Muslims did not

Re: # 514

Zeemax sahib:

Like you, I also have very high regard for the Chinese. As I recall from BiGE - Big Government & Economies class on China. Chinese model has been based on restricted movement of Labor, decentralized taxattion - revenue / bribes etc. collected stayed where the development was concentrated. This was discussed as the biggest challenge for China would be, Deng Xiao Ping was quoted that China will have till 2020 to fix this. Inland farmers are routinely paid IOUs for their crops. Apparently, in the past history of China, some emporor tried to consolidate and failed.

One thing for sure, Chinese FDI is hard to track. It is comingled with short term capital. Much like a game of ponzie, by the Global Chinese from Taiwan, Hong Kong, Thailand, Indonesia, Malayesia and Singapore.

If you otherwise look the amount of FDI in China and its affect, is much inferior to the FDI in India. Why is it so? My answer is that the same FDI is counted manytimes over. China is more productive and efficient than India. There is simply no denial that China has almost arrived. It has a clout to create waves in the world.

Re: # 520

Massaddi Mian:

Apka dimaag lajawaab hai. Again zero content.

In #519 read anil writes as "arjun writes"- though there is very little difference between the two, except that arjun is equal in bigotry but comparatively smarter than anil- he can also write half way decent English unlike anil.

anil writes "get their undies in a knot when anyone mentioned the crusades.."

Because the present-day crusaders use the similar bs and terminology when they rape Muslim lands today...

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Re: # 509

Dear bubba

I am not sure how u came to that conclusion but rest assured that certainly is not the case. Arabs/Muslims are guilty of the same crime but u cannot equate them with the European/Christian imperialism.

anil,

Mohar had raised a point that if the Chinese do that, it will not be good for their people because ther've been 80,000 riots over there. I don't know if that's true since I haven't heard of a single one. The last I heard was in Tianamen Square in 1988 when they actually ran tanks over students.

I have seen bodies lying in the streets of Beijing from traffic accidents with no one to pick them up. Ultimately they're swept to the sides like dogs and cats so traffic can pass.

It is not easy to know the Chinese mindset.

I have been accused of being cryptic, but I really don't know how to explain.

Regards.

... of-course it depends on how they decide to go about it. The Chinese think 50 years ahead at the minimum.

Re: # 513

Zeemax sahib:

So had EU, so had Japan, and wait for a couple of jumbos. These elephants may not longer be ignored.

#502 Posted by mohar11,

China has positioned itself to do anything it wants. Pull, or push, whatever.

tahmed writes "An educated middle class is the true nation-building force in society. "

This is one of the most oft repeated banal nonsense that is mainstream because the "middle class" as soldiers and buffers employed by the elite keep the working class (of which the Middle Class is a part though they feel themselves superior) from demanding their rights. Of all the dependant classes, the middle class is most vested in mainating the status quo, and thus enhancing the power of the elite, they are the anti-democratic forces everywhere. Therefore when the elite in their myopia and greed reduce the size of the middle class by making the few distinctions between them and the working class blurry is when hope arises for the system to change. Education by itself is not a panacea, we don't need the "education"- corporate sponsored that helps the slaves adjust to their slavery, the education that is needed is the one that helps you transcend the system and challenge it, the kind of education that Hamid says has "no value".

And finally this BS about comparing US hegemony around the globe today and its destructive effects to Arab conquests of the past, long dead and gone, are mere bigotry soothing and distraction for the purpose of muddying what affects us today...Except for intellectual exercise, it is of no real concern to any of us in today's world what Arab conquerors did, not only does it not in any way justify what the US is doing today around the globe, it does not help in understanding the changed political and global economic relationships of today...

Majumdar you are confused between colonized lands and white "settler" area. The settler areas like North America, Australia etc were considered an extension of the homeland, the economic relationship and autonomy given to the settlers was also qualitatively different, and the indigeneous folk in almost all of these settler areas were wiped out wholesale. This did not happen in colonized areas because the purpose of colonization was not to establish them as white settler areas but mainly for control thorugh a small elite for markets and economic exploitation. In no post have I defended Arab conquests of other lands for whatever reason but comparing Arab conquests that were qualitatively different in the autonomy granted, in the non-exclusive and different economic system, and in the lack of wholesale genocide to the butchery of the Europeans is marked nonsense...All the lands colonized by the Europeans are in shambles except for the settler areas that were established as an extension of the homeland, compared to this the Arab conquered areas were markedly better or equally developed compared to their homeland or areas under the control of the then white cave grovellers...

Re: # 497 Posted by rf786 on January 24, 2008 2:36:21 am

Arif Sahib, for two centuries or more the arabs destroyed all the intellectual base of the conquered lands should be ignored and forgotten because then afterwards the ruling elite (non-arabs in most cases) changed their style and started contributing to the societies. Is that what the thesis of your argument is?

re: tahmed32

The inspiration, in a real and practical sense, if there was one, behind the United States Declaration of Independence and its' constitution were the acts of the English Parliament passed to limit the monarchy's power vis-a-vis the parliament.

Specifically; The Act of Habeus Corpus; the Petition of Rights; The Grand Remonstrance; the Act of Settlement; the Act of Supremacy and others, which clearly established and gave legislative power to parliament over the monarchy, including the power of taxation. These laws, also acted as the precedents upon which the colonial legistures of the thirteen American colonies operated, which later gave way to the arguments of state versus federal rights, once the British started to by-pass the colonial legislatures and started to govern the colonies by a parliamentary fiat.

The American distrust of a strong monarchy-federal government was based on their experiences under the British rule; a British parliament dominated by Lord North, the prime minister at the time, who wanted to use the colonies as markets for Britain's growing mercantalist empire.

Ciao

Re: tahmed32 # 505

I was not defending the Aztecs. I agree, the Aztecs were no boy scouts either, but I was merely replying to nkg's rather blanket admiration of the Europeans in his post # 487.

As to the Puritans, please keep in mind that the Puritans were the more exterme members of the protestants in England and were rabidly anti-Catholic and they were basically expelled from England by James I, when he succeded Elizabeth I as the king of England in 1601. The Puritans, were no angels either and their acts, as seen in the Salem Witch trials, were not enlightened but rather were regressive and barbaric. The Mayflower Compact and John Winthrophe's wish to create the "city on the hill" were religiously motivated and the Mayflower Compact did not offer the gurantees normally associated with constitutional rights and thus, should not be identified as one.

The American Declaration of Independence was more a result of the ideals of the Enlightenment and the American constitution was more inspired by the works of a Frenchman named Montesquieu (sp?) and his book; "The Spirit of Laws", which basically argued for a seperation of powers between the seperate branches of government.

The rest of your post on Pakistan is well reasoned and I agree, with its conclusions and hopes for Pakistan' future.

Ciao

Re: # 505

tahmed32

You give too much credit to the puritans, there main purpose was too bring religion to the savages and gold t their king. People who brought constitution were secularists and some would even claim atheists.

Pakistan's problem is like u rightfully said dictatorship that exploits masses through corruption and religion. What Pakistan needs is less religion and more democratic principles practiced by ALL, not just the fast escaping middle classes.

ferozk #501 What you say is quite true about spanish and portugese rule in Latin America. Mexico City is built on the ruins of Tenochtitlan, the capital of the Aztecs. With material from the largest Aztec temple used to build a church. But then, the Aztecs were no saints either - they too were a primitive society of kingships and priests, and their temples were drenched with the blood of countless victims of human sacrifice.

While Latin american nations have been built on this culture of lust for gold and wealth by ignorant plunderers and soldiers, the puritans who came to north america were among the best educated in europe. They came not to enrich themselves but to escape oppression by the King and Church of England. Even before landing in north america, they had formed the Mayflower Compact - in other words a Constitution!! In this respect, 400 years ago those people understood the importance of the rule of law better than the lawless scoundrel Musharraf and his followers do even today. These people were followed by other educated men, notably William Penn who was an idealist and introduced a democratic constitution that laid the ground for the US Constitution 150 years later.

This difference (dictatorship, and jehalyat of the spanish in Latin America vs. the push for democracy and education in North America) has led to the vast gap between these two sub-continents of the new world. Latin American "Hacienda economies" (i.e. feudal landholdings) vs the US capitalist economy stood Marx on its head by having the economy reflect the political structure of dictatorship vs democracy.

There are clearly lessons here for Pakistanis as well - An educated middle class is the true nation-building force in society. Military dictators and priests are guaranteed to keep a society from moving forward. Over the past 60 years, India has taken the US route (due to educated middle class types like Nehru who understood the importance of the constitution), while Pakistan has been pushed the Latin American route. Our good fortune is the brave and ever-stronger middle class of Pakistan whose sacrifices in 2007 could very well mark the time Pakistan switched from the South American track to the US track.

it's like saying - if all pakis just refuse to drive their cabs then we all will be in trouble ... true, but what are the chances pakis would ever do that?... even the most Mo-crazy paki knows he has to eat first...

it's the same with chinese... they are making a living by being the factory to the world, their livelihood is at stake here...

US conspiracy to keep allah's chosen muslims(allah's jews) down!!

Pakistan at 92nd position in GCI


By Khaleeq Kiani


DAVOS, Jan 23: Pakistan occupies 92nd position among 131 countries in the global competitiveness index (GCI) while India ranked 48th.

According to the Global Competitiveness Report 2007-08, released at the start of three-day World Economic Forum (WEF) here on Wednesday, the US tops the GCI index with a score of 5.67, followed by Switzerland (5.62).

Denmark, Sweden, Germany, Finland, Singapore, Japan, UK and the Netherlands are among the top 10 countries in that order.

Malaysia occupies 21st position with a score of 5.10 while Kuwait, Qatar, Tunisia and Saudi Arabia occupied rankings of 30, 31, 32 and 35, respectively.

India stands at 48th position with a score of 4.33 while Pakistan’s 92nd position is with a score of 3.77 while Bangladesh is ranked at 107 with 3.55 marks.

In the 2006-07 index with 122 countries, Pakistan was on the 83rd position, and this year it has shown a decline of ten positions. It not only gave way to other competitors, the country also lost scores. Its score last year was 3.82 points.

In the sub-index of basic facilities, Pakistan is ranked at 98. While its infrastructure and institutions stand at 72 and 81 positions, Pakistan’s macroeconomic stability and health and basic education are ranked at 101 and 115th positions.

Pakistan is ranked at 81st position in efficiency enhancing factors by securing 28 positions in market size and 116 in education and training.

Last year, India had occupied 42nd position among 122 countries and it had secured 4.47 scores in the GCI.The US has succeeded in maintaining its first position since last year. China that stood at 35th position last year has improved its ranking by one step to 34, also improving its scores from 4.55 to 4.57 this year.

The series of Global Competitiveness Report evolved over the last three decades offers invaluable insight into policies, institutions and factors driving productivity, enabling sustained economic growth and long-term prosperity.

Report provides users with a comprehensive data on a broad array of competitiveness indicators for a large number of industrialised and developing economies.

This year’s edition features record 131 economies, accounting for more than 98 per cent of the world’s GDP.

The Global Competitiveness Report includes the World Economic Forum’s Global Competitiveness Index, developed by Prof Xavier Sala-i-Martin, at Columbia University; the Business Competitiveness Index, developed by Prof Michael E. Porter, Director of the Institute for Strategy and Competitiveness at Harvard Business School as well as detailed profiles for each of the 131 economies covered and data tables displaying relative rankings for more than 100 variables.

zee

You keep talking aabout "if china does this or that"...why would china do all that you are suggesting?... why would it stop selling stuff? its own survival depends on its trade to US and europe...

As an emerging economy, china is in a more precarious situation politically and economically then the better established countries in N. America and Europe.... if the economy goes south in china- there is no telling what's going to happen there... there were 80,000 riots last year even when times are good... China is in no position to "take away the ladder" or threaten US with economic damage... they will suffer much more, if they do that...

Re: nkg # 487

Hernan Cortes was a plunder and a looter, whose expedition to South America was self-financed, mostly, in search for personal glory. The much touted Age of Exploration's motto was "God, Gold, Glory" and in this, God was an after thought. The so-called "explorers" were opportunists, whose idea of exploration was a means to enrich themselves and they caused more harm to the cultures they came into contact with than they benefitted them.

Pizzaro practiced genocide and between the introduction of European diseases (small-pox, measles and common cold), alcohol and mass murder, the explorers from Spain annihilated entire communities of Aztecs and Mayans. The Spanish rule of their South American and Caribbean possesions was marked by a rule of racial prejudice, religious intolerance and social apartheid.

The explorers from Portugal were no different. The struggle for the control of the spice trade, which brought the Portugese to India and then towards the Far East, was marked by acts of political terror, such as collective punishment for Muslim and Hindu traders, who did not trade with them. The Portugese committed acts against the local populations that Nazi doctors at Auschwitz would have balked at from doing!

The Portugese, under Prince Henry the Navigator went to Africa in search of gold, but they did not find gold and instead they brought a few captured Africans back to Lisbon and sold them. The sale was so profitable, that they would start trading in "black gold" and in the process, institutionalized slavery and made Lisbon the center of European slave trade.

The Portugese and the Dutch provided weapons to the Japanese warlords, which fuelled the Japanese civil war in the late 1500s and early 1600s, because they were fighting each other over the control of the spice trade and were using the Japanese to fight their proxy wars; the Japanese died and the European profited. The introduction of European weaponary into Japan, increased the lethality of Japanese civil wars to such an extent that when Tokoguwa established his shogunate in the 1600s, he killed all the Europeans in Japan in order to secure the peace.

Francis Drake was a thief and pirate, who stole gold from Spanish main and gave it to Elizabeth, and which paid for England's Golden Age. The stolen Spanish gold was sold in Amsterdam, and this not only devauled the price of gold in Europe, but caused a massive inflation in Spain and the first economic recession in Europe.

As to the European educational institutions; they were only for the Europeans. European educational institutions in Africa, for example, were exclusively for Europeans and so were the European hospitals and the roads build by the Europeans were not open for the Africans to travel upon and the best agricultural lands were taken from the Africans and converted into tea and coffee plantations to feed the needs of the commerical capitalism in Europe.

Historic truths should not be gloried and though, I am against the ideas of politically correct history; the reality is that the European contact with the outside world was a devasting experience for the non-European world. The Congress of Berlin, in 1878, called the "scramble for Africa" drew the lines on the map of Africa in the name of colonization, which tore asunder African communites and were/are responsible for the present day problems in Africa.

The peace treaty of Versailles in 1919, based on the understanding of the Skyes-Picot pact, established the present-day Middle East and what was settled between two bureaucrats in a Cairo hotel room in 1916, would be responsible for the killing of millions not yet born!

I have read my history, as you adviced, but I do not agree with you and your version of history. :)

Ciao

#498 Posted by zeemax on January 24, 2008 4:54:10 am


I was talking about was that this ladder can be pulled out from under them by China.


you're still dreaming of islamic abdul suckling the yellow teat and going on do defeat the great satan?

maybe you should ask the chinese why they're loaning money to the US to finance it's consumption...i doubt a single chinese will tell you it's out of love for the US or altruism...

stick to the basics...learn the difference between amaranth and amarnath...then pretend to be an expert...

#463 Posted by masadi on January 23, 2008 5:43:01 pm


If you are talking about the Arab conquests of the past, the world is much different qualitatively now- they could never approach doing to the globe what these barbarians are doing, the means of destruction, power and wealth at their command is vastly greater and the reach much further than anything the Arabs could muster, and leave "Muslim" out of it. If the "Muslims" had done to India


there goes masadi again...being the apologist for islamic colonialism....according to masadi, and presumably mills, some forms of colonialism are ok..in fact, they're even benefecial....

#492 Posted by ijaz_gul,

Cheap Chinese stuff increases their standard of living and savings.

But that's exactly my point. What if that cheap Chinese is stuff isn't cheap anymore, or not available at all? Will not US then be forced to go back to manufacturing low value-added stuff of its own instead of the very high-end stuff it now exports, and thus lower its standard of living? Or do without, say, DVD players?

In fact, China has become the factory of the world. Its cost advantage is said to be over 40% Vis a vis the cheapest competing nations like S. Korea and Taiwan, let alone Japan. It practically has a monopoly now on all consumer goods (both durable and non-durable except automobiles which is only a matter of time) which the typical middle income family uses across the world.

China's this very advantage in low-end markets has enabled the G7 countries to move up the value-addition ladder. What I was talking about was that this ladder can be pulled out from under them by China.

If China does that, it will only hurt its coastal belt special economic zones' economy which is a small fraction of the rest of China which is rigidly Communist, and nothing will change there - while G7 will have to retool part of its industry back to low-end.

Re: # 496

nkg

There is a term in behavioral finance called "recency bias" where investors perceive gains and losses according to the recent history. Big mistake. Same applies to other aspects of life, when u look at the present situation of third world countries inhabitated by Muslims or once ruled by them you have a dilapidated position reflective of current malaise. What is not remembered or forgotten are the good times or positive contributions made by that particular civilization. Had u access to a time machine and traveleld back in time when ottoman empire was at its peak, then they were the most benevolent, moderate and advanced society. There again, if you read Nernard Lewis it gives one a very good account of Muslim civilization contribution.

Re: # 495
I am not against Arabs. The degrade of humanity under the influence of Islam pains me (whether it is in Thailand, Indonesia, Afhganistan, Egypt, Pakistan, UP, Bihar ( Indian States), Bangladesh...). These places, with great history and doomed present deserves sympathy.

Re: # 481

nkg

Although not well regarded in the Muslim world but quite comprehensive is Bernard Lewis book on Muslim civilization "The Middle East". If you wish to understand the current myopic aversion with everything Arab/Muslim then read Edward Said excellent boo "Orientalism".

Re: # 483

Ma sahib

Another excellent book is by Paul kennedy, "Rise and fall of empires".

Regards

Arif

Re: # 490

May I also add, 'the Wonder that was India' and te fact that most of the knowledge was transplanted to Europe through Arab/Muslim traders and conquerors from the East.

Ans:
China and India exchanged knowledge/skill and have nice trade relation without attacking each other for thousands of years (1962 is the first instance and should be the last one).

Zeemax,
I would disagree with you.
USA has a very competetive domestic economy.Thats what caused the crash of 30's but no more.Gold Dollar Equation ensures it will not happen again because it prevents the economy from over heating. Cheap Chinese stuff increases their standard of living and savings.

Re: # 483

In addition, North Am, parts of South Am and Australia were regions were thinly populated and were suitable for settlement by goras (Europe was overpopulated) so there was an incentive plus it was easy to clean out the local people either by force or thru accident (disease). By contrast Asia and Africa were not really suitable for gora habitat and there were far too many locals to exterminate.


Ans: People always look for fortune and if possible then they settle there. Europeans have settled in North America and Australia without much involvement of British Royals. This is similar to people flocking to USA and settling there in last 40 years. If, after 40 years, most of the people in LA, USA become ethnically Indian, can we tell that as Indian invasion? I will differ here. How you are sure that you will survive in an alien land after exterminating locals? There are certain reason for maginalization of locals in Australia and America. But violence is not the only reason.
Coming back to the point; so, it is impossible for external invaders to totally subdue locals in India. Furthermore, to survive in India, you need the help of local people.
Regarding WWI and WWII, the fatal weapons were not in the hand of moslems. That is the reason statistically, europeans killed more people. If you provide the same technology of Israel to Iran ( Khoneini or some Imam of Mosque), you know what would have happened to Israel? What this Hamas,Hezbullah, LeT etc... are doing with limited technology and resource, is enough to prove islamic barbarism.

Re: # 486
Its not a question of ignoring the typos. The difference in both is that in Colonialism, local resources are exploited and very little spent on local human resource development.Its a form of slavery and countries even after getting independence remain tangled in tied trade etc.The develpoment theory is based on dependence.
In colonisation, an entire culture and race is transplanted as an extension of the mother country.The development theory is based on Develpoment.

#487,
May I also add, 'the Wonder that was India' and te fact that most of the knowledge was transplanted to Europe through Arab/Muslim traders and conquerors from the East.

#445 Posted by anil

That is why had debated Zeemax sahib, on his theory of destroying the U.S. economy by asking Chinese to inject inflation.

err .. Anil Saheb, this wasn't the theory at all. The theory I presented was that US was more dependant on China for its economy than the other way around.

Do correct the record!

Nkg,

(Have the native American able to provide Evidence of large scale destruction like we Indians?)

I will try to find sources, else you can always depend on Masadi sahib.

(They were mostly within Europe and adjacent areas. )

If Peru, Brazil and Argentina are "adjacent areas of Europe" I have nothing more to add.

(My basic point is European settlers has created excellent academic/industrial/social infrastructure wherever they have gone)

Here I agree with you.

(Egypt to Afghanistan. Places with great history, no current achievement. )

Again, I agree with you.

Regards

Re: # 483
Then you need to read some more history, read about the Age of Discovery, England, Portugal and Spain's maritime conquests etc. About the likes of Prince Henry the Navigator, Hernan Cortes, Pizarro, Francis Drake and the rest of the gang

Ans:- They were mostly within Europe and adjacent areas.

Dupleix and Vasco Da Gama...

Ans: Sorry. That is the reason, they have not succeded.

Re: # 484
Ignore the typos...

Re: # 478
Injuns were so incomepent....
Ans:
I will beg to differ little bit here.
Have the native American able to provide Evidence of large scale destruction like we Indians?
Konkan Region has large number of Temples destroyed by Portugese. Kashi, Mathura, Somnath, Hampi etc...has historical evidence of islamic barbarism. In Murshidabad/Maldah there is one mosque (I have forgot the name), in the inner wall of which,the partially destroyed face of Lakshmi and Ganesha is still there. Local people believe that, it was actually a temple.I am not aware of such destruction by European settlers in America? Please enlighten me.
I have seen one TV program, which shown, how muslims in Egypt, has destructed the surface of Pyramid (polished stone) to build mosque. If possible, I will provide more information in this regard.
My basic point is European settlers has created excellent academic/industrial/social infrastructure wherever they have gone, where as the islamic invaders has created the total anarchy, whereever they have settled their root. Egypt to Afghanistan. Places with great history, no current achievement.

Re: # 476
Do you know the diffrenece between Colonialism and colonisation?

Arif bhai

#480

Very true. And for once even Masadi sahib will agree with you.

In addition, North Am, parts of South Am and Australia were regions were thinly populated and were suitable for settlement by goras (Europe was overpopulated) so there was an incentive plus it was easy to clean out the local people either by force or thru accident (disease). By contrast Asia and Africa were not really suitable for gora habitat and there were far too many locals to exterminate.

I wud strongly recommend a book called "Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond.

Nkg,

(From where Europeans will collect resource, if they need to backtrack? )

Why wud they need to backtrack if they are going to whup the locals anyway?

(As per my knowledge of Histroy, Navy was not extensively used by European Kingdoms for expansion beyond Europe and adjacent areas. )

Then you need to read some more history, read about the Age of Discovery, England, Portugal and Spain's maritime conquests etc. About the likes of Prince Henry the Navigator, Hernan Cortes, Pizarro, Francis Drake and the rest of the gang.

(It is people like Dupleix,Robert Clive, Vasco Da Gama etc..., who without any Govt. patronage helped to create colonies.)

Well when we speak about gora colonialism we are not really distinguishing between public sector and private sector conquests. And in any case both Dupleix and Vasco da Gama were both govt employees.

Regards

Re: # 478
Have ever British force invaded India, like Mughals?

Ans:I think, you know the history. British Govt. took over India from East India Company in 1857? They have not sent any soldier to invade India. East India company used to maintain small army for their own protection. Later that grew in number. East India Comany was not able to manage the army properly, so, after 1856 uprising, British Govt. took over from E I C. It was the circimstance, that made British rule over India.

Where does it say that invasion can happen only through land?

Ans:This is not documented, from common sense. You are sailing 1000s of miles to other land to fight with the locals, without a base there. From where Europeans will collect resource, if they need to backtrack? As per my knowledge of Histroy, Navy was not extensively used by European Kingdoms for expansion beyond Europe and adjacent areas. They were able to colonise large part of Asia and Africa, mostly due to administrative failure or weak society in those places.It was the fortune seekers and traders, which had created large european colony outside Europe. It is people like Dupleix,Robert Clive, Vasco Da Gama etc..., who without any Govt. patronage helped to create colonies.

Where does it say that invasion can happen only through land?

This is not documented, from common sense. You are sailing 1000s of miles to other land to fight with the locals, without a base there. From where Europeans will collect resource, if they need to backtrack? As per my knowledge of Histroy, Navy was not extensively used by European Kingdoms for expansion beyond Europe and adjacent areas. They were able to colonise large part of Asia and Africa, mostly due to administrative failure or weak society in those places.It was the fortune seekers and traders, which had created large european colony outside Europe. It is people like Dupleix,Robert Clive, Vasco Da Gama etc..., who without any Govt. patronage helped to create colonies.

Re: # 474

Maj sahib

With all due respect to our European folks, they actually have a unparrelled track record in extermination, genocidal wars or social, political, economic subjugation.

Some examples of their exterminations:

1. North America-indegenous Indian (red) population
2. South America-Mayan population
3. Australia-Abrogini's
4. Jews-WWII
5. Muslims of Chechnya by Stalin

These are the most obvious examples that history has documented, one reason for these races being completly marginalized or decimated was their small population numbers, where Europeans encountered large population bases they chose too rule by forced conversion or economic and military domination. Classic examples are the Asian and African continents that were divied amongst the seafaring European nations.

Probably the biggest loss to human race has been the cultural invasion and perversion. This has happened in all continents wherever the invading forces landed they have been the reason why cultural diversity was replaced with European/Christian culture.

Mohammadens can also be blamed for the same when they invaded and occupied foreign territories imposing their religious and social customs on local inhabitants. But, compared to the Europeans/Christians, Mozlems can never come close to their brutal decimation of different cultures and populations.

WWI and WWII started by Europeans/Christians caused death and destruction of 70MM and more, no other race can ever come close to those numbers in terms of brutality and more importantly no other race has the same capacity to inflict damage when compared to the giant European/Christian powers.

Re: # 478

Maj

Me think this nkg guy is either trying to pull a fast one Or, is mentally challenged.

Nkg,

Re: 477

I hope this post was not made to pull my leg. But if it wasnt here's m2c.

(In, those days, you can not transport large number of troups by sea route.)

But the Injuns were so incompetent that you didnt huge numbers, a few hundred well-trained and well-armed soldiers were enuff for the Injuns, as it is were the American Injuns.

(Most of the European colonies were established through sea route. That proves that, these areas were not invaded.)

Where does it say that invasion can happen only through land? I will be interested in the source.

(Have ever British force invaded India, like Mughals? )

So how did India end up becoming a British colony, quite curious to know?

Hoping for a prompt response.

Regards

Re: # 474
#472 and #476..
Mr. Majumdar, you seems to be Bengali...Please read "Anandamath" and analysis of
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1770
In, those days, you can not transport large number of troups by sea route. Most of the European colonies were established through sea route. That proves that, these areas were not invaded. Have ever British force invaded India, like Mughals?

Re: # 473
I have provided reason and references...Please argue with logic...If the Arab invaders have to settle in India, they need skill to survive here, which they did not have...This is fact...
What muslims have achieved in Egypt,Sudan, Iran etc... has failed in India. North Africa and part of Middle east has glorious past. After the advent of Islam, it has started declining and now the most notorious place on earth.
The present advanced society in entire North America is built by the European settlers. What is contribution of the native Americans in the current industrial and academic excellence in USA and Canada? India has lost a lot from islamic invastion. Entire eductaion system was destroyed by the muslim invaders. India's share of world GDP had started declining from that period. Whereas people flock to North America due to the institutions and opportunites the settlers have created for the entire world.

Please, stop comparing europeans of 17th century to arabs of 10th/11th century...

The Eurpean colonies are the most advanced states (USA, Canada, Australia, NZ etc...) and the Arab colonies are the most backward areas on earth (Egypt, Sudan etc...), with a great history of civilization.

Masadi sahib,

(comparison of Arab and European colonization )

European colonization did not always involve extermination (or nearly so) of locals. It did so in North America and Australia but not so in Lat Am (slavery), Asia (economic exploitation) or Africa (slave trade/economic exploitation).

Agreed that Arab Imperialism maybe never decimated the entire population of locals but it did bring about large scale cultural genocide. And of course in many countries like Pakistan locals are ashamed of admitting that they are of local descent and start inventing mythical ancestors (from Iraq for eg).

Regards

#472, unless you don't know how to read, why were the Hindus a majority and not a minority at the time of partition if the "Muslims" had done to them what the European settlers did to the Native Americans? Comprendey or should I get a fourth grader to explain this to you...bigot.

If the "Muslims" had done to India what the European settlers did to North America, Hindus would have been a minority of a minority like the Native Americans, not in any Arab conquered lands unlike European dominated settler areas

Ans:- Muslim invaders were inferior in all walks of life except brutality. If Islam spread, who will run the administration? Who will keep the civilisation alive (nice example- Pakistan, Bangladesh and Afghanistan toppers in falied state index in contrast with India)? Moslems had no good social structure. That was the reason, they have to loot/rob others and survive. A good, self sustaining society does not adopt such methods. The establishment of European colony in India was mostly due to the anarchy created by the moslem rulers in India. The civil structure was almost destroyed. The local people of Bengal thus asked the East India Company to remove barbaric moslems from the helm of affairs. East India Company had come to India with the purpose of trade. Situation forced them to take reign of Bengal. A prosporous state, thanks to the moslems, witnessed famine for the first time in history of 2500 years. Please read "Anandamath" by Bankim Chandra Chattyopadhyay. Nice social documentary of how British traders were transformed into rulers. So, it was not the kindness of the moslems. When European people settled in America, they were at the peak of their progress. European settlers has not learned any skill from the native people. They had all kinds of skills to rule the land and keep the civilisation alive. They have only used the local resources.
A nice example of islamic skill is demonstrated in Afghanistan. They are definitely providing enough resistance to the NATO forces. But, when comes to organising Asian Games in Doha, most of skilled workers were brought from the Europe, India and other countries.

US plans in Pakistan- Latest off the press

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080124/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_afghanistan_pa kistan_9;_ylt=AtUpGvzici1LK4tH0xJCDhyWwvIE

Anil try to address what I write in my posts, the point I made regarding Native Americans viz a viz the Hindus of India in YOUR comparison of Arab and European colonization is a very valid point, the point regarding the qualitative difference between Arab conquests and European and now US "globalization" is also a very valid point. Regarding my website there is nothing on there regarding Hinduism except in the comparative article about the status of women. After you've regained your composure from this ramble that is a sign of a weak intellect, you are free to go ___ yourself.

Re: # 463

Massaddi Mian:

While I am angry, let me address this also:

"...If the "Muslims" had done to India what the European settlers did to North America, Hindus would have been a minority of a minority like the Native Americans, ..."

You do not know a didly about Hinduism. I have seen your web-site to you hinduism is Sati or rituals and caste system. If this what it was, it would have died on its own.

This is not an institutionalized system that you can destroy by destroying its Mecca. It is not even a religion for your sake (and not God's sake, as it does not even define God).

When you are capable of learning I can tell you why Hinduism could not be destroyed, while Muslim armies crushed Persia.

You may need to look beyond 7th Century to Mills par course to learn that human civilization much more than religion. Religion is a very narrow part of civilization - it covers a belief system for man.

My advise, as it will be to my son, is that look to the future not all this past. Burying yourself in past makes you angry. You forget to live and enjoy life.

Even your God has given you 24 hrs in a day, just as he has given to other muslims and non-muslims. It is how you use is what you become.

Use them better, Massaddi Mian. You indeed have a beautiful mind. I must say this to you.

Re: # 463

Massaddi Mian:

Sword is not used for delivering flowers, in case you need reminding.

You always like to find faults in others. Please do not be so blind, violence is violence accept it. You must denounce it unconditionally.

Else, my dear Massaddi there is no difference whether it delivered by Gen. Custer's cavalry, Islams sword or your foul mouth.

Your hypocracy shows, and you show that you are nothing but a religous nut. You are desparately trying to grab whatever garb you can grab to cover your fanaticism. I can see why Tahmed sahib said that people like you who can brainwash young mind to be cannon fodder. I challenge you to remove religion out of the equation and you will find an equitable solution in that part of the world. People like you play in the hands of those whom want to fight.

There is just no difference between you and those who use a pretext for violence and justify killing others. People like you are not limited to your religion. Fanatisicsm is not yours alone.

I knew it when I will shine mirror back at you, you will be angry and like HP Mian, and will start calling me names. At least you did not call Mother Burner and Ganesha Mutant. You probably know my belief system better than HP Mian. Bigotry is in your attempts to challenge muslimhood of people on American Indians. Bigotry is in your failure to see that Muslim Army did not carry sword to deliver flowers with it.

Be objective to see and denounce violence no matter which ever cavalry or sword it came from. Don't grandstand regarding American Indians to brainwash by calling Muslim etc. etc. This is disgusting that you will use one killing spree to arouse others.

tahmed writes "The dullards meanwhile live in the 19th century of Great Powers and states..."

Foremost among these "dullards" are the US elite that maintain a complex network of over 800 military bases all across the world in order to maintain their "power" and "state" of hegemony, and threaten countries a fraction of their size and military power using lies, to "bomb them to the stone age" and spend over $600 billion with a B, a year fighting impoverished people who can scarcely scrap for a chinese ak-47 and fight in slippers....The world indeed is progressing towards new and brighter "frontiers"...we are fortunate that even the illiterate fools living in half starvation now understand US shenanigans and "big talk" about several kilometer long research projects when the "fabric of reality" around the globe is that half of the world lives near starvation, worse than animals and over 80% of the rest not much better...

hamid mian if I didn't feel so sorry for you at this moment, because of your condition (and wasted existence), I would have responded to #465. For all your failings and immorality you are still heads and shoulders above tahmed

chowk staff,

.... please ban tahmed from chowk for a couple of weeks - he is inflicting cruel and unusual punishment on masadi ..... i think it is called baiting ..... and the fool that he is, mad masadi falls for it every time .......

In #463 read "not in any Arab conquered lands unlike European dominated settler areas"

as

" but that was never the case in any Arab conquered lands unlike almost all European dominated settler areas"

Anil just saying "come up with better arguments" when you can't approach the substance of what I have written, just shows how retarded you are.

If you had read what I had written you could never conclude that "muslims were on a killing spree". I understand that this is your bigotry speaking. "Muslims" can never be on a killing spree. If you are talking about the Arab conquests of the past, the world is much different qualitatively now- they could never approach doing to the globe what these barbarians are doing, the means of destruction, power and wealth at their command is vastly greater and the reach much further than anything the Arabs could muster, and leave "Muslim" out of it. If the "Muslims" had done to India what the European settlers did to North America, Hindus would have been a minority of a minority like the Native Americans, not in any Arab conquered lands unlike European dominated settler areas

By the way tahmed you LIE when you say you don't read my posts. You read them very carefully and sometimes multiple times, you just don't have the intellect to counter them

For the idiot who wrote "These were bought from Texas, and not from Mexico. Please try to get your history straight."

Let me quote for you from the Wiki before you blurt out absurdities (remember that Texas itself, a part of Mexico was annexed by the US and then acquired using its peons who did not own it)


(quote)"These lands were a product of the Mexican-American War and the subsequent Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, signed February 2, 1848. In this treaty, Mexico gave the U.S. parts of what is Texas, Colorado, Arizona, New Mexico and Wyoming, and the whole of California, Nevada and Utah and recognized the Rio Grande as Texas' Southern border. The United States paid Mexico $15 million. In addition, the United States agreed to pay claims made by American citizens against Mexico, which amounted to more than $3 million." (end quote)



Tahmed I challenge you to show us here ONE factual lie that I have made in any of my posts. Saying "he knows me" or "I know him" only qualifies as a lie in the mind of dimwits, You are a pathetic moron and have been proven to be an immoral lowlife as well.

[The western half of the US was stolen at pennies to the dollar at the point of a gun by the US, it was not "bought",...] These were bought from Texas, and not from Mexico. Please try to get your history straight.

chaltahai #444 You got that one largely right. The US will no doubt remain a major engine for innovations - but the multipolar (or more accurately, non-polar) world is already here: Thus, this year the LHC (Large Hadron Collider), the largest research instrument in the world (spanning I think several kilometers, and cutting across France and Switzerlan), a multibillion dollar effort involving virtually all the developed nations will - touchwood - start full operation. So much info will be generated that results will be partitioned and sent off to thousands of scientists across the world - and, if successful, will lead to either a confirmation of the very fabric of the reality or its extension (including the possibility of new dimensions).

The world of collaboration at a planetary scale is already here among the best and brightest in the world. The dullards meanwhile live in the 19th century of Great Powers and states...

masadi: numerous posts.

Lesson 1 Masadi the Liar and Hypocrite: I taught you this day before yesterday, exposing your habitual lying and hypocrisy.

Leson 2 Masadi the Snake: I taught you this yesterday, exposing you to be one of the scoundrels, bearded or beardless, who spreads lies about the US in Pakistan by equating it with Shaitan.

I am not interested in posts written by a lying, hypocritical scoundrel like you. So I didnt read any of your rubbish.

Re: # 454

Massaddi Mian:

"...who has no identity..."

What is your identity? For a moment I thought you were describing yourself. Can you not see the symmetry of your own arguments? By your logic you should be ashamed to call yourself a muslim, because only a couple of hundred years prior, Muslim armies were on the killing spree too.

Move on, come with better arguments, if you can. Else just move on.

later

in #454 "society has transformed him into what the corporations not consider discarded i.e "loser", he realizes that his entire life has been wasted chasing material lies... "

as

"society has transformed him into what the corporations now consider discarded i.e a "loser", he realizes that his entire life has been wasted chasing material lies...

hamid writes " today you would not have been so bitter and been a useful member of society instead of a pathetic 'looser' "

I'd rather be a "pathetic loser" according to the corporate definition of the term than a "winner" who has no identity, does not know anything about his or her society and when he wakes up (in his old age) when suddenly society has transformed him into what the corporations not consider discarded i.e "loser", he realizes that his entire life has been wasted chasing material lies... If you were to realize the value of these words I can bet you your entire family you'd gladly give me all your material wealth no questions asked- that is the value, which cannot be measured in terms of money behind the truth I have just told you...

tahmed writes "The manifest destiny was fulfilled 155 years ago"

It was never fulfilled because the people do not accept slavery that easily. The US met resistance and still faces it wherever it takes its BS. In the rhetoric of popular right wingers the "manifest destiny" is still the guiding principle, the so-called "frontiers" are just popular Star Trek mythology in a country where those whose values are espoused have not even reconciled themselves to the idea of evolution.

Re: # 449

masadi mian,

.... finally ! .... something you and i can agree on :

"Teachers and even most assistant professors at state universities makes less in the US than a manager of a Burger King restaurant, if they took a vacation to some "exotic" land even ONCE in their entire career they would fall back on their car or house payment,"

.... and that is just about what they deserve! .... a manager of a burger king adds more value to society than any 'professor' of sociology, anthropoloy, or any othe apolgyfor a real education ..... for a while i was quite worried about my older daughter who was taking too many silly classes in sociology for no apparent reason other than the fact that they were easy A's .... luckily she is graduating with a major in biology and a minor in sociolgy (which brought up her gpa by a few points) and headed for med school this fall ........

.. masadi mian, you should have listened to your parents and taken some of the hard classes sush as calculus, microbiology and physics instead of cruising ...... today you would not have been so bitter and been a useful member of society instead of a pathetic 'looser' ........ sorry for being so blunt ........

And let me tell you all quite clearly, nobody but nobody that tries to justify the slaughter of so many human beings as were slaughtered by this "manifest destiny" concept in the early history of the US, nobody who tries to justify it for whatever reason can be a moral human being, and nobody that justifies it can ever under any circumstance be a Muslim in the true sense of the word. Not even the worst mass murderer would so easily and painlessly defend and legitimize his killings as tahmed is doing for his western masters. You want to see the human animal at its worst regarding morality and decency, you have the ideal specimen in tahmed. I just cannot imagine anyone with such low morals....

tahmed writes "
Nor was the concept of manifest destiny an evil one, as masadi likes to portray it. The US bought large chunks of land. Even the mexicans themselves are streaming into California today to escape the miserable conditions in mexico"

Now do you need further proof that this backstabber is an enemy of the people? Ask the native Americans who were butchered by the tens of millions (40 million according to some estimates quoted by Zinn in his book that this fool is reading) and the African Americans who are suffering from the effects of that to date, not to mention the entier world that was treated as America's whore to be raped, and he says that this concept was not "evil" and how does he know that it was not "evil" by stating the Mexicans are coming to California- please tell me out of the entire popualtion of Mexico how many have come to California and why have they gone there, because of the jobs that the white man wants from them but does not want to give them equal rights and not to enjoy the scenery there. The western half of the US was stolen at pennies to the dollar at the point of a gun by the US, it was not "bought", you cannot buy people's land by making sweet deals like the US does with the Pakistan Army for pennies to the millions. It was theft plain and simple and the Mexicans driven from their lands are coming back to reclaim them and soon they will. The Manifest Destiny was white racism garbed in religious rhetoric similar to what some cukoo mullah might proclaim and as you all see the LIAR tahmed who lies about his concern for the Pakistani people supports that racism hook line and sinker. Let me end by quoting Howard Zinn a real historian and not a lying fake like tahmed regarding the early history of the US in the context of this Manifest Destiny:





The historian Howard Zinn in his, “A People’s History of the United States: 1492 –Present� (1995), summarizes U.S. military intervention in the affairs of other countries prior to World War 2:

“The U.S. had instigated a war with Mexico and taken over half that country. It had pretended to help Cuba win freedom from Spain, and then planted itself in Cuba with a military base, investments and right of intervention. It had seized Hawaii, Puerto Rico, and Guam, and fought a brutal war to subjugate the Filipinos. It had opened Japan to its trade with gunboats and threats…It had sent troops to Peking with other nations, to assert Western supremacy in China, and kept them there for over thirty years… It had engineered a revolution against Colombia and created the “independent� state of Panama in order to build and control the canal. It sent 5000 Marines to Nicaragua in 1926 to counter a revolution and kept forces there for seven years. It intervened in the Dominican Republic for the fourth time in 1916 and kept troops there for eight years. It intervened for the second time in Haiti in 1915 and kept troops there for nineteen years… Between 1900 and 1933, the United States intervened in Cuba four times, in Nicaragua twice, in Panama six times, in Guatemala once, in Honduras seven times. By 1924 the finances of half of the twenty Latin American states were being directed to some extent by the United States. By 1935, over half of U.S. steel and cotton exports were being sold in Latin America. Just before World War 1 ended, in 1918, an American force of seven thousand landed at Vladivostok as part of an Allied intervention in Russia and remained there until early 1920. Five thousand more troops landed at Archangel, another Russian port…�.(Zinn 1995:399-400)

arjun to tahmed "..I'm going to calll BS on that..."

Everything tahmed writes is bs. Teachers and even most assistant professors at state universities makes less in the US than a manager of a Burger King restaurant, if they took a vacation to some "exotic" land even ONCE in their entire career they would fall back on their car or house payment, that is for those of them whose credit affords them to get a house by paying for it till they're retired...

#420 Posted by tahmed32 on January 23, 2008 9:09:51 am


I know school teachers who live what by any reasonable definition is a a dream life - taking off a couple of months off each year to go vacationing to some exotic place in in europe or africa or asia, living comfortably


Ummm..I'm going to calll BS on that...even for the teachers who teach in the well off schools of gaithesburg/montgomery county...

#426 Posted by zeemax on January 23, 2008 9:38:04 am


How come 6 of those 19 hijackers are still alive but FBI has not revised its list?


You've got your facts confused with the stuff pulled out of your rear...that's probably got something to do with the fact that your brain IS in your rear...

chalta writes "No country in the world innovates and monetizes on that innovation like the US. Not the EU, not Japan, not CHindia and definitely not the muslim world or africa. "

That "innovation" is for the sole purpose of domination and maintaining the global and internal hierarchy. Innovation is worth dung when it is used not to better people but to harm and control them. The individual in the US is just a number to be manipulated by corporations for extracting surplus- he has no human identity- his family is in tatters, his life is not his own, the best parts of it belong to the corporation for which he works, even his kids do not identify with him, they identify with the corporate symbols and their material manifestations (like Hamid's daughter wishing to work away her life aimlessly for a bmw) moreso. If there ever was the human made less than animal, it is in Western society, and everything, science, technology, knowledge is being diverted to manipulative use to benefit the few.

People like tahmed who have sold their souls to serve just such a devil's world will equate such bs with integrity, as far as real knowledge and honesty goes, honesty that shatters their mythology, they cannot hold a candle to someone with my kind of ideas...

Re: # 444

Chaltahai:

Pie is certainly not limited. Opposite of finite is infinite, somehow that does not look right.

Wealth creation in developed economies comes in many ways, the surest way is of course through growth in the domestic product. GDP is the pie if you may like to call.

Restructuring, innovation and shuffle create opportunities in this pie. Much as in your home, if you restructure, you may not need your existing domestic help, but an outside contractor who may indeed make some money.

Innovation drives efficiency, productivity. It also gives a phenomenal leverage, because you are transforming Intellectual capital and monitizing it. This is a true growth driver. Obviously there are many others.

Finally shuffling production or IT services for instance, here or there, is like creating room for a new baby. It too squeezes capital for better opportunities. EU any others did not do it, and the U.S. is very efficient in doing such house cleaning. Japan had life time job security, and Soviet Union was simply a gone case with their command-control economic model.

Shuffling is really the premise of Globalization. Integrated pie will only be bigger, and bigger players will naturally get bigger slices. East India Company gave the best returns when England integrated India through it, for accessing raw material and supplying finished goods. Those were colonial days. The scene is different now.

That is why had debated Zeemax sahib, on his theory of destroying the U.S. economy by asking Chinese to inject inflation.

If this financial crisis is a trigger which will end as what I have suggested, then it has an ability to induce deflation in world economies, rather than cause inflate. Chinese may soon be worried about getting into deflation, when demand for their products can dry up. Unless they spur domestic demands.

In deflationary times, we all will be worried of reduced asset values and reduced pay checks, hopefully consumer prices will go down for a smooth lending. Factors are far beyond my comprehension. Especially, if it turns out that these integrating pies (GDP) cannot sustain the asset values which have given us cash flows, incomes and assets to buy.

Utlimately money (dollar) is like water. It flows, and allows markets to put a value of "assets" in terms of money for what they should be worth to buyers. The largest players, especially they own the source of water (dollar), and largest market, have ability to tilt the slope in their favor. There is a limit for all this too, what happened to British Pound is an example. Now, there will more to compete as well.

No country in the world innovates and monetizes on that innovation like the US. Not the EU, not Japan, not CHindia and definitely not the muslim world or africa.

Anil, do you think that the pie is finite? i.e. one must lose for someone to win? I think the pie is growing, shares among the major participants might shift here and there but on the whole but partnership will make everyone benefit.

Let me also add - the whites have a a far better sense of worth, and self-worth, and the quality of dignity of labour which I am yet to see amongst the arabies or the pakistanis or indians,.

Again a reason why they do well and are able to take care of their own people, and why we are not able to do so.

Think about it - THIS IS ALL ABOUT BEING ABLE TO TAKE CARE OF ONES OWN PEOPLE. When everyone feels a part of the bigger picture do they pull together.

HP asked this question regarding Indians sometimeback(I was a silent lurker then - as I was tied up with work), but I feel that this is what is the transformational engine there. There is a slow and steady progress towards achieving the above.

Re: # 441

show me one such enterprise zeemax coming from arabi or pakistan or India?

All go around with their begging bowls.

You have to admire and give credit where it is due. The Yanks have the can-do attitude in spades, which most on the people from the medit east do not have.

Yes, I must admit I do admire them and their ability to go beyond their individual abilities and make something of their lives. That is something we can all learn to emulate. What we are real good is whining like mangy little pups!

#439 Posted by queen_cut_pastem

What you said re McDonald is about human enterprise. But it appears you regard 'white' enterprise even more than you admire your pet macaca.

Re: # 429

hamidm2

Its called the "Monroe Doctrine" ie US hegemony in their backyard (South America).

By the way, US has not been a benevolent imperialist, like their peers they too have committed numerous human right violations and acted in the true spirit of imperialism. Chile, Nicaragua, Venezuela, Bolivia, Brazil u name it they have their finger prints.

damn - I swear its chowk software ....

mometary = momentary


Let him say it to his hearts content - tereko kya pharakh - han

HP has an interesting sense of humour. Move on, is what I would recommend.

Re: # 432arey, Anil Sahib why are you so het up abut these words. HP could be an ignorant little man if he said it - it might be giving him some mometary pleasure in deriding hindus.

Are you any one of these? If not, then whats your problem.

Re: # 427

Hamidm Sahib:

This is beginning of a shift in world's economic balance. As far as the U.S. is concerned, it can be quite like the crisis of Pound Sterling in late sixties. Once that was over, British Pound was no more a currency for International trade. The U.K. was on the retreat from basis in Singapore, in Aden, in Simonstwon South Africa and a few others.

I will not be surprise if we will see similar phenomenon here, especially there are EU, China, Russia Brazil and Indian jumbos ready to be in the air. I read somewhere that India has world's 4th largest reserves, I could not verify it.

Countries economy is much like your own checking account. If the economy is managed badly, is like you writing more checks and your keep putting money from your other savings and investment accounts. In global sense, these are foreign sovereign reserves, or large financial institutions holding the U.S. treasury bonds, and publicly traded stocks. A point comes as with your personal account, that use of these "reserves" will be higher than what is called as debt capacity, and performance. Debt Capacity is something that measure how much one can safely borrow, and is based on leverage and cash flows. In nations case it cash flow. Performance is who well the "paper" performs, be it a bond or be it a stock.

Given changing scenarios, competitive environment will become more dominant. Bombing Iraq may never work in the future to corner resources as the bargain basement prices. Instead the most efficient, productive and with superior technological advantage would win. Old methods of securing raw materials, labor, and energy through colonial model would not work.

For a long time to come I believe, the U.S. system will have advantage on the above three counts. How long the U.S. has it, is not clear. After all Americans have their innings, time is coming for America to share with others. It is through global partnership that the U.S., the largest force on the block, will bring growth and prosperity.

Although I remember a case study Xerox in 60s, when it was common to talk that Xerox has 20 year lead over the nearest competition from Japan. Things changed much shorter time. Now copiers are associated with Japanese branch. Xerox is reduced to a document company. They mismanaged their own technology, and Steve Jobs gave McIntosh to the world, from this swiped technology from XEROX PARC. Therefore, a lot of these advantages disappear.

What must be American value proposition needs to be reinvented?

It just cannot be consuming offshore products, or even bringing those old manufacturing back on shore. It possibly could be creating economy based on alternative fuels, in integrating the world's commerce, and education systems. Taking what is good American values and systems to the world. There are still many natural advantages America has, water and farming land are two major. In next 20 years these too will play every important role.

My suggestion for retirement is to retire in Sausalito and enjoy San Francisco.

We are entering a very interesting phase.

The american dream - or rather fulfilment of potential or whatever zeemax is on about - is encapsulated by the McDonalds history (might be worth your while to visit the sight or go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonald's).

It started as a sandwich shop started by two brothers (the Brothers McDonald) in 1940s in CA. Their first franchise was to a guy called ray Kroc (maybe that's where the term "what a load of croc" came into being!) in 1955 (Illinois). Today its turn makes many countries look small...a few figures might help

Revenue $21.5864 billion USD (2006)
Operating income $14.445 billion USD (2006)
Net income $3.544 billion USD (2006)
Employees 465,000 (2005)

And this from being a small sandwich shop selling what else ham burgers.

The whole world eats this stuff and they are a major food-producer - their farms producing beef, ham, lettuce etc.

This the can do attitude of americans at play - they have gone where no else went before (like Coke), like McD or hate McD you have to admire this sandwich shop becoming a global player of such proportions.

Not one desi or arabi will ever reach this heights - hence they will never be able to fulfil their potential!

Re: # 430

exactly !

#429 Posted by hamidm2

Ah! the wise man of the east...You know I never disagree with you...More power to Puerto ricans and J-lo!

Btw, Mexico's economy is a whole lot better than Pakistan's. Maybe Pakistan should be in line for takeover before Mexico. is that right?
Mexico's economy is equal to Illinois in numbers and Pakistan's is equal to Arkansas!

Re: # 427 Posted by hamidm2 on January 23, 2008 9:40:08 am

[bubba,

.. that is a scary thought - who came up with this brilliant idea ? .... the investment bankers ?]

Henry Paulson, of course. Who else could be that devious? The ex-Goldman Sachs guy, duhh!

And this was in context to the financial war suggestion.

[... so you are saying that once the dollar drops to the level of the chinese yuan all the construction workers in the us will be employed at a dollar a day making chopsticks that they can export back to china ? ]

Of course this is just a theoretical suggestion. But, to bring back a lot of manufacturing jobs back the US has to get rid of the healthcare cost from individual cars and onto the society (hence, talk of universal health care costs). To bring back some more USD from abroad, it is better to have all US management finesse sold to aspiring third world countries (without actually sending anybody over their or hiring from the local economy), etc.

All of these are part and parcel of the financial war. O! yes, then we must have cheaper oil or a new hydrocarbon law. We give OPEC cheap paper and get their oil. Can all this be G.W.’s brilliance or some wall street white guy. Under Clinton it was Rubin, and now we have Henry Paulson, of course.

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Re: # 425 Posted by HP on January 23, 2008 9:37:45 am

[This is a strange logic to prove the US take over of the Mexican lands.]

Your knowledge of this particular history is wrong. The US did not take over Mexican lands.

Mexican government invited the white people from the then US to develop the northern frontier and give many huge swathes of land that included all of California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, and some parts of Colorado to areas touching the Canadian border. Some of the new land owners were Mexicans as well. The Mexican government promised the new owners not to tax these barren lands. Later on, however, the Mexican King changed their agreement with the new settlers and demanded taxes these lands. This new Mexican taxation led to war between the new landowners (both whites and mexicans) and the government. The Mexican General Santa Ana was routed near San Jacinto (close to Galvestan, Texas), and these new owners claimed a new country called Texas.

There was no US on these lands at that time.

Iran or Japan..hamidm.

Re: # 425

hp,

.... like the puerto ricans (the sane ones) i can support the takeover of pakistan by the us ....... and if i was a mexican i would definitely support a takeover by the us ..... would you rather live in san diego or tijuana, laredo or nuevo laredo, el paso or ciudad juarez ? ...... let us not have silly emotions stand in the way of better judgement .....

SOme should tell masadi that there is no US elite and there are actually six very very smart mice (not jews) sitting on the board of Rothchild that control the world.

Re: # 422

bubba,

... so you are saying that once the dollar drops to the level of the chinese yuan all the construction workers in the us will be employed at a dollar a day making chopsticks that they can export back to china ? .... that is a scary thought - who came up with this brilliant idea ? .... the investment bankers ?

Also, you say :

(as in case of 9/11 hijackers)

How come 6 of those 19 hijackers are still alive but FBI has not revised its list?

The Harvard Business School Graduate (with an email address to prove.hehehehe) shows the signs of the graduation in abuse. You don't expect more from sandwich shop operators and I will leave this to Chowk staff to take care of that!

Tahmed,
"Even the mexicans themselves are streaming into California today to escape the miserable conditions in mexico."

This is a strange logic to prove the US take over of the Mexican lands. Should we ask Brits and the American to take over Pakistan and India because both Indians and Pakistani are lining up to get US and other western visas, to escape the conditions in those countries? Or perhaps we should give Pakistan to Dubai because Pakistanis are trying to get in that country illegally almost daily?

#421 Posted by tahmed32,

Yes tahmed saheb, the 'Final Charge' is all about 'Manifest Destiny'. And no, it hasn't been fulfilled yet, nor it will be (but that's another debate).

Re: # 420

tahmed,

.... i hear you .... actually i use the same argument to try and convince myself that michael jordan (the ceo and the basketball player) is not any 'happier' than me ..... it is a sorry excuse for my own shortcomings and i know it! ...... unlike masadi, who loves government cheese, i would like to have their money ....... and then if i don't like it i promise to give it away ...... you can have it ...

Re: # 333 Posted by tahmed32 on January 22, 2008 1:59:09 pm

[bubba: how do you fight a financial war?] By bringing the mighty dollar close to parity with your opponent's currency. For example, if the US wants to fight the Chinese with their advantage over the USD then all the US has to do is to devalue USD such that US manufacturing comes back alive and the Chinese transportation cost just removes the value addedness to bring all those cheap Chinese products in the US markets.

Currently US export is approx. 13% of the USD GDP. Whereas the US construction has over 25% of the labor force, its share of the US economy (USD 14.4T) is barely 5%. Thus, for the near future, we will continue to see labor losses, with increase of US exports.

This is inspite of the financial thuggery of those investment bankers and equity fund managers. Of course, all of this is applicable only if Hamid mian, blesses it.

#419 zeemax: the "manifest destiny" was a 19th century concept, fulfilled in 1852 or so when the US finally achieved its goal of extending its frontiers from "sea to shining sea". So, if you choose to let Masadi confuse you with his habitual lies, be my guest. But dont call those lies "ideas". The manifest destiny was fulfilled 155 years ago. Duhh!!

Nor was the concept of manifest destiny an evil one, as masadi likes to portray it. The US bought large chunks of land. Even the mexicans themselves are streaming into California today to escape the miserable conditions in mexico. Left in the hands of the corrupt mexican elite, California would have been a third world junkyard like the rest of mexico.

If you want to talk "ideas" (as opposed to lies masquerading as knowledge), then today is not about "manifest destiny". Today is about the "final frontier" that the US is leading the charge against that I talked about in post #128 below.

hamidm #415: No one says that michael jordan (or any other entertainer - screen actor, sportsman, investment bankers, performing flea) is worth what he is paid. All I am saying is - you can live a perfectly fulfilling life with a lot less than the obscene amounts these individuals are paid. And not everyone is going to become a news-generating entertainer anyway.

I know school teachers who live what by any reasonable definition is a a dream life - taking off a couple of months off each year to go vacationing to some exotic place in in europe or africa or asia, living comfortably (and you dont need to buy expensive cars to impress strangers on the highway or any desi cheapster "social friends" in the US to do that), and still have time to spend raising children and take care of your health and so forth.

And there are very few "non-real jobs" in the US - even a licensed plumber in the US takes pride in his work and understands the meaning of "professionalism" in a way that even a uniform-disgracing general like musharraf in Pakistan would never understand. And he still makes enough to afford (if he wants) a waterside home with a boat. And there are standards in every profession - even kindergarten teachers are expected to have a masters in education. This is the stuff people who spend decades in the US and never understand.

So, just make sure your daughter gets married to someone civilized, and let this great nation give her the biggest gift a country can give to its citizens - the freedom to do what they like to do, not what they are driven to do to ease their financial insecurities or to feed their financial appetite. Leave the latter for the jahils of the middle east. At least that is my view that you may wish to think about.

#417 Posted by hamidm2, #418 Posted by anil,

I think what Masadi Mian talks about, in the ultimate analysis, is rebellion against the concept of the 'Manifest Destiny'.

Re: # 416

Zeemax sahib:

I would say that there ia truth in what you say.

Massaddi Mian is trying to bring new synthesization for an alternative solution.

Re: # 416

zeemax,

.... let me save you the trouble ........ i parsed through all of masadi's posts and came up with the following:

.... "the us elite is reponsible"

......... i hope that helps ...... you are welcome!

p.s. stop encouraging the fool

I think someone said about 'parsing' Masadi Mian's posts correctly. That is correct. There's a lot to be read in his posts.

Re: # 413

tahmed,

.... unfortunately, i still have trouble differentiating between a 'v' and a 'w' and so remain a fob inspite of my kids best efforts to stop me from growing nose hair and wearing sneakers with dress pants ! ........

.........personally, i don't give a flip about what my kids do as long as i don't have to support their ridiculous life style (i know, i know, i am to blame ..) ...... they have to understand that you cannot be a primary school teacher and drive a bmw, spend 3 bucks at starbucks every day, have an iphone, run around in designer jeans and eat forty bucks worth of sushi ....... you want to do all that, then become an investment banker or live on government cheese like 'professor' masadi .......

....... but getting back to the subject, stop whining about executive compensation ......... if michael jordan can make 60 million a year, what is wrong with the other michael jordan (cbs, eds) making a measly 20 million ....... he could probaly make more at a private equity firm and not have to put up with commies like you .........

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hamidm: You need to move beyond the fob stage (the stage when you persue wealth ignoring the fact that after a certain stage wealth means nothing - check out Maslow to help you understand). Teaching is a real job in the US, rest assured. So drop the Pakistani conceit about "lowly lecturers".

I am also surprised you were able to steer your daughter in the "right (i.e. fob) direction". Most US-born kids I have seen dont give two hoots for the "fob dream" - most first generation immigrants I have seen trying to push their kids in the "right direction" simply get told not to try and live their lives through them (i.e. their children).

tahmed mian,

... so what is the moral of the story ? .... for years, i have been reading this crap about executive compensation written by tweedy professors who can't get a real job .......

..... this is the lesson i learned from all this nonsense: i am trying to steer my younger daughter who (i think) is brilliant into dropping the silly notion of becoming a school teacher and instead going into investment banking ...... and since she likes the good things in life, like i-phones and dinners at the capital grill - she got it after i showed her that there was no way she could afford all that on masadi's salary ..... she also knows that she will have to work 80 hours a week to buy that bmw ........and she is okay with that

....... samuelson is a whiner - if he was that smart he would be running a hedge fund instead of depending on some runny nosed kid at charles schwab to make him a fortune ..........

loas=loans in #410

Re: # 407

If you read the recent Atlantic Monthly article (it was quoted here below by Bubba), you will get an intersting insight into this - esp China lending money to the US. That these guys could hoodwink china into giving such loas to the Amricans, would explain why despite the losses they were given rewards they richly deserved. In fact given the scale of the losses (which were really losses by the outside world) these guys should have been given more.

further to #407, while wall street investment bankers may not be idle, they are grossly overpaid and thus "relatively idle". And even in this case - one of the foremost champions of the capitalist system argues the opposite of Russels article (which I hope was tongue in cheek, since I havent read it other than the little extract you provided). Similarly, while you can question the prophet Mohammed's or the prophet Jesus' contributions to human society in conveying (introducing) religion, neither one of them was idle.

Re: # 406

Anil Saheb, where did this vitriol come from? Man, that is one heck of a side-swipe of invective directed to poor HP. (did HP really say all of that (what anil says he said)?)

Want to ask knowing people: Is this HP that Masadi? Do you lot see some similarity between them?

hamidm: Russell whom you quote was no doubt talking about the ancient Athenians who had a slave class to do the manual work. But "idle" they were not - unless you consider Plato's Republic or Euclid's geometry or Sophocles' theater to be the result of idleness.

Even the right wing Robert Samuelson has finally come out against the "idle rich" in todays WP:

Capitalism's Enemies Within
By Robert J. Samuelson
Wednesday, January 23, 2008; Page A19

Excerpt:
Amid the mayhem on world financial markets, it is becoming clear that capitalism's most dangerous enemies are capitalists. No one can have watched the "subprime mortgage" debacle without noticing the absurd contrast between the magnitude of the failure and the lavish rewards heaped on those who presided over it. At Merrill Lynch and Citigroup, large losses on subprime securities cost chief executives their jobs -- and they left with multimillion-dollar pay packages. Stanley O'Neal, the ex-head of Merrill, received an estimated $161 million.
...Just why investment bankers and traders out-earn, say, doctors or computer engineers is a question I've never heard convincingly answered. Are they smarter? Unlikely. Do they contribute more to the economy? Questionable. True, Wall Street often performs a vital function. It channels savings into productive investments. It helps provide access to capital and credit.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/22/AR2008012202 615.html

=== Interact Filtered ===
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HP: Knowledge without integrity is worthless.

tahmed,

.... so you don't buy my argument in favor of the idle rich ?..... think about it - do you think mo of mecca would have had the time to sit around in a cave and talk to a winged creature if he had to get up in the morning and go to work?.... if his old lady didn't have all that money to finance his nocturnal trips, he would have remained earthbound like the rest of us .....the man was able to accomplish more in his lifetime than a family of patels working twenty hours a day running six donut shops in jersey ........ on the other hand, look at poor jesus who made his own shoes and was so poor that he had to drink imaginary wine ....... the man was strung up in a loin cloth and it took other much wealthier people like pope peter to spread his word .......

..... and that is why masadi will never amount to anything - the poor man will spend all his pennies on 'publishing' his 'works' at lulu.com even if he is able to con ward churchill into write the foreword ....

Re: # 361

hp and tahmed,

.... i was merely echoing a higher power - bertrand russell :

"In the past, there was a small leisure class and a larger working class. The leisure class enjoyed advantages for which there was no basis in social justice; this necessarily made it oppressive, limited its sympathies, and caused it to invent theories by which to justify its privileges. These facts greatly diminished its excellence, but in spite of this drawback it contributed nearly the whole of what we call civilization. It cultivated the arts and discovered the sciences; it wrote the books, invented the philosophies, and refined social relations. Even the liberation of the oppressed has usually been inaugurated from above. Without the leisure class, mankind would never have emerged from barbarism"

.......... now, as far as masadi is concerned, i think the man must be eliminated from cyberspace - he poses a grave threat to mankind ......

Re: # 401 that should be post #305, and here is what I said

#305 Posted by iron_mask on January 22, 2008 12:13:39 am
Re: # 257

sorry, Masadi - rather unfortunate that I cannot fathom your language and your logic is rather pedestrian. You need to delve a bit deeper - what you say has been said umpteen number of times and many are yet to see some ofthese claims validated.

Anyway thank you for your thoughts - which seem insightful to you.

BTW if you used less of the Moron, eff_you type of language you would come across as the thinking person you aim to be. The language you use is that of an uneducated, illiterate, uncomfortable little moron.

Anyway have a great day!

Re: # 400

I have, and as a result always take his statements with a pinch of salt! I am an equal opp. questioner :-)

I agree re: masadi - in fact said so earlier as well (see #232 or #255 - donot recall the number), but the man has a penchant for intense abuse - and in fact has been correct (not necessarily right) on a fair number of occasions. Its the language which makes him an unbearable boor

#399 Posted by iron_mask
"Please post verifiable information here - before we can believe you."

Never seen any post from you asking the same question from the other guy who on several occasions claimed to be a Harvard Business Graduate. Wonder why?

In reality and if you can parse Asadi's posts correctly, he shows greater knowledge and understanding of the issues than the so called Harvard Business school graduate who is unable to write two paragraphs on any subject with some coherency!

Asadi's problem is not that he does not know but he hits a snag when he wants to comment on every issue and every post.
still, he is certainly more knowledgeable on many issues than the Harvard Business school graduate, whose knowledge on every issues is pedestrian!

Re: # 340
#340 Posted by masadi on January 22, 2008 5:08:28 pm
Anil you need to shut up when you dont know something. I graduated summa cum laude, top of my class, beating out all chinese, Indians and US students in my university in economics. Now go ___ yourself

Please post verifiable information here - before we can believe you. This bit of information needs validation, a blanket statement like needs this - but then you are the biggest laude on Chowk!

Re: # 329
#329 Posted by bubba on January 22, 2008 1:00:27 pm
Re: # 323 Posted by chaltahai on January 22, 2008 11:31:01 am

[....with the widest of asset classes for the investor set.] ok, with $1.4 Trillion Chinese money back into the US economy, buying treasury bills. This is what we usually call "funny money". Now, once again, the US is heading for cheap money and worthless dollar, and once again, the "financial gurus" (those creative geniuses!) will once again trap millions of people in their "get rich schemes" and once again, another group of people will be wiped out in 5 years or so.

US is heading for a financial war with the rest of the world, and the weapon of choice is the dollar. You keep USD at your own risk. If China does not get away from pegging their curreny to the dollar, we will have dollar equal to the Chinese curreny to equal out the current account deficit. How about that?


Bubba, can you expand on this china angle for novices like me...also what if China is also participant in this game and could be playing a double bluff!

old foggies please be easy on masadi, the guy is spirited and shows lot of promise

masasdi:
modulate yourself. this is simply a forum an not all the guys are your enemies. learn from then; many of them are accomplished

and masadi you coward. i know you are sitting there staring at the screen. cant face being confronted? only capable of ridiculing people like me as being "peons" for daring to question your lies about the US as long as I didnt respond in your own language?

majumdar: what you are saying reminds me of Clinton saying that "he didnt inhale". Please stop bending over backward to be generous to this man - we are talking of real life where thousands of people have died in Pakistan, where millions are misled by scoundrels like him who paint the US as being their enemy.

what bigger enemy can Pakstanis have than someone who fools them into doing things that hurts no one other than themselves/? Just the fact that this scoundrel does not pout religious rubbish like mullahs makes him no less a liar.

Re: # 393

majumdar

Thou are right, he is no fundoo...but, did he leave the US on his own or was he escorted to the airport.

Tahmed sahib,

Masadi honestly considers USA to be shaitan and to give credit to him he has actually left the country to come back to Pakistan unlike munafiqs (hope got the word rite) who stay in US, enjoy its pleasures and call for a jihad.

Now you are right that demonising US and inciting Pakis to start a jihad against US is not in Pak's best interests. But to be fair to him, he has never recommended armed fighting against US nor support the Talibs/Havayoons at least on chowk. Now what he does beyond chowk I dont know.

Regards

majumdar #390 you are being too generous with this man. he even uses the same vocabulary (shaitan) as these scoundrels do to spread their lies about the US.

he is a liar who tells lies of the kind that have misled thousands of youth from poor families in Pakistan. I have seen those young men in madrassahs in islamabad - innocent young people, well meaning and friendly. Turned into cannon fodder by scoundrels like masadi, fighting a people who mean them no harm - and those scoundrels act as pious as masadi.

majumdar: read #386 and tell me if I am wrong. What is a "good man" if he deliberately lies and misleads people. This scoundrel masadi is a teacher or something in Pakistan. I know his kind - misleading students, pretending to be a US hater after having jumped to get a visa for himself to the US!!

Tahmed sahib,

Re: 386

Now that's not fair. Masadi sahib has never been a votary of the "jihad" or supported the Taliban. He is a staunch Muslim and believes that principles of Islam if properly implemented can make the world a better place but has never justified violence as means to spread Islam.

Whatever else he is, he is not a fundoo.

Regards

anil #382 Agreed. Bill Gates became rich - and gave the world real value in return. This is why the US society is so progressive - it values merit above all else.

Re: # 381

Majumdar ji:

"...Masadi sahib is a good man really (if you overlook his foul language) it is just that his theories are all wrong. And I am sure that if he was to realise that his ideas would ruin Pakistan, he wudnt peddle his theories.

Besides, I agree with him when he says that Pakistan's institutions are severely retarded and need to be built first thing if Pakistan has to survive..."

Do you realize this is like "Sholay's" that classic dialog, where Amitabh goes to meet Masi for Basanti's hand for Dharmendra. Ranjit had quoted it ealier somewhere on Chowk.

Masadi sahib,

Do any of the developing countries (including Pakistan) have any choice other than to improve their own competitiveness, economic freedom, encourage FDI in order to develop their economies. Can you name any country which has followed an alternative path and succeded?

Regards

masadi: yesterday i took the time to prove you to be the constant liar and hypocrite that your are.

i will now take the time to expose you for the damned snake you are as well: It is because of snakes like you who spread lies about the US in Pakistan that thousands of boys from poor families in Pakistan have died the past 10 years. You know very well how they were fooled by snakes like you into going to Afghanistan to support the taliban and al qaeda that attacked the US and killed innocent people for no reason. If the parents and brothers of those dead boys knew how they were lied to by snakes like you - they would take you apart.

The above may seem drastic - but this is the reality.

later..

majumdar writes "it is just that his theories are all wrong. And I am sure that if he was to realise that his ideas would ruin Pakistan"

Very easy to say in this "broad brush" fashion so far you have failed to successfully challenge any of them... In fact what I mention is the only logically sound alternative to "more of the same" which has produced zero results for Pakistan thus far, and time for it has almost run out..

Re: # 376

Tahmed sahib:

Once this selection starts, elitism starts. Motive forces accelerate selection. Ability to produce becomes different. Economic law of Necessity. By all accounts Bill Gates would be an elite now. That is the way I see it.

Re: # 376

Tahmed sahib:

Once this selection starts, elitism starts. Motive forces accelerate selection. Ability to produce becomes different. Economic law of Necessity. By all accounts Bill Gates would be an elite now. That is the way I see it.

Tahmed sahib,

(some people on chowk posters are more interesting to read than others.)

I am sorry to say that you have missed out Ahmedmadani sahib in the elite list. In one small post and in very simple, uncomplicated language he puts in more wisdom and reality than the biggies of the chowk put in full page FP articles.

(what makes you think masadi has the interests of Pakistanis in mind? )

Masadi sahib is a good man really (if you overlook his foul language) it is just that his theories are all wrong. And I am sure that if he was to realise that his ideas would ruin Pakistan, he wudnt peddle his theories.

Besides, I agree with him when he says that Pakistan's institutions are severely retarded and need to be built first thing if Pakistan has to survive. Nor is his criticism of USA's (often anti-people) interference in Pakistan's internal affairs entirely unjustified.

Regards

In #379 read "made the Pakistan Army stronger" as

made the Pakistan Army stronger in its political and economic domination of the country.

Regarding strength as a fighting force it wont last more than a week against any foe as is its goddamned reputation.

tahmed writes " he would know better than to keep lying and painting as enemies nations that bear Pakistan no grudge or illwill"

The liar, who falsely accuses me of lying without any proof whatsoever, once again is defending US policies towards Pakistan, policies that since even before the Afghan war have destroyed our institutions, made the Pakistan Army stronger, brought civil strife not to mention all kinds of violence to the streets of Pakistan, and brought us to the brink of total destruction and he says the US is all about goodwill for Pakistan. Will you all still doubt what kind of a snake this person is

Fighting America's farcial wars is what started this viscious cycle of destabalization that perpetuates the military dominated system that keeps the US ticking...There are many heavily armed cukoo militias running amok in michigan, let us have the US start a war there on the scale of the Pakistan Army to check the "terrorists" and then see what reactions it produces...Let me remind you that Waco in part produced the likes of Tim McVeigh from those very militias run amok....

majumdar: what makes you think masadi has the interests of Pakistanis in mind? This is all about his own measly little self and how he is the greatest invention of God since sliced bread. He is like Musharraf in this regard, except he didnt get lucky that scoundrel.

If masadi about Pakistanis - he would know better than to keep lying and painting as enemies nations that bear Pakistan no grudge or illwill. But Pakistan has too many scoundrels like Masadi and Musharraf who are full of themselves only.

anil #369 This is not elitism. This is merely pointing out that starting from a level playing field (free from social status, income levels, personality, and so forth), some people on chowk posters are more interesting to read than others.

anil #369 This is not elitism. This is merely pointing out that starting from a level playing field (free from social status, income levels, personality, and so forth), some people on chowk posters are more interesting to read than others.

Masadi sahib,

Dont you think that it is possible that it may be in Pakistan's own interest that it must participate in the WOT. The havayoons are running amok in Waziristan again.

Regards

masadi #368 What!! All those hours spent yesterday..patiently pointing out the Leaning Tower of Masadi's Lies!! You want to be treated as the village idiot on chowk - be my guest.

The news report said (see under) "Pakistan Army would continue its role against the war on terror, Kiani said."

I wish it was "against" the war on Terror but it's most probably the PMA English that Kiani is using while trying to express support for the wot.

ISLAMABAD: US Centcom chief Admiral William Fallon has arrived in Islamabad on one-day official visit (as Musharraf is out of the country).

Admiral William Fallon met with Pakistan Chief of Army Staff (COAS) General Pervez Kiani.

COAS General Pervez Kiani said in the meeting that only Pakistani forces to conduct any operation inside Pakistan. However, intelligence sharing with US can be done.

It is necessary to find out the root causes of terrorism and extremism. Pakistan Army would continue its role against the war on terror, Kiani said.

General Kiani makes it clear to Admiral Fallon that intelligence sharing on Pak-Afghan border security is a must.

US Centcom chief said that war against terror could only be won with joint efforts of the allied forces.

-----------------------------------
These SOBs own the Pakistan Army, they are preparing this new bastard for a coup

Re: # 366

Massaddi Mian:

"...And why do I need to do that, ..."

Without that Massaddi Mian, if you were a jamadar from Harvard, or knew anything about the street Pedalar from Gujranwala you would have realized, that you are so full of....

And just quite. Please use your beautiful mind, honestly please.

Re: # 367

Tahmed sahib:

"...And full marks to present company - HP, you, Hamidm - who imho are among the best on chowk...."

Aapne elitists khade kardiye Chowk per bhi. HP Mian ke alwaa, Massaddi Mian sab ko gaalin detein hain.

tahmed writes " boy. I will be happy to work with you to help you get rid of your bad habits (lying, abusive, pretentious). :-)"

You entire wasted life has been described by your slavery to the white man, as his peon, helping him kill, maim and destroy in return for some crumbs he hands you by using fluff and other pretensions to stab your own people in the back. To think of it what kind of a soulless, immoral person could have sung songs in support of the US barbaric invasion of Iraq in trying to legitimize what the entire world understood was total injustice? Only Tahmed and his kind could do it.

And don't call me 'boy' you little swine.

#365 anil: the eliteless society is right here - on chowk. on the internet.

On the internet discussion forums, you cant impress anyone with your income, personality, gravitas. Only by the strength of our ideas, behavior. (I read this somewhere, btw). And full marks to present company - HP, you, Hamidm - who imho are among the best on chowk.

As your Masadi - Keep trying Masadi. You can do it, boy. I will be happy to work with you to help you get rid of your bad habits (lying, abusive, pretentious). :-)

anil "produce an exmaple of eliteless society"

And why do I need to do that, I am not concerned with an "eliteless" society, it is when the elite usurp the very source of life and are destroying the earth that I want those who are being oppressed to challenge those that have become the "elite" but least deserve it- not in intelligence, in power or even in justfully owning what they own, which is the common heritage of the earth and its inhabitants, no human being since its origin can claim the earth and its resources as his sole right to the exclusion of others.

Next, just because something has not occurred in the past, especially since humanity was able to command surplus, does not mean that it will not occur in the future. In the evolutionary progression of humanity some, like Marx see the dialectic cycle ending with the emergence of a classless society or some form of it. Now you can argue on if that will or will not happen but you certainly cant say that it has not happened so it wont happen because the entire logical system of it is based on mode and relationships of production which have been different in the past. You being a harvard business school graduate cannot understand this, so I suggest you keep company with the gujranwala halwai so as not to suffer stress related diseases prematurely...

Re: # 359

Massaddi Mian:

I am still waiting for you to produce an exmaple of eliteless society. I have given you a choice from yes, before 7th Century right from the days of hunters-gatherers.

Why I keep telling that you have no idea of economics. Forget about economics of scale, economics of technology all that make things faster than ever in the 7th Century or in Mills concepts. Ask Bill Gates. I am sure you will insult him and call him elite also.

Listen to my advise, stop pedaling whatever you are, start learning from the pedaler of Gujranwala. He has better economic concepts, than a Summa Cum Laude among the class of D*****S.

jesus, i look down and even masadi got that one. That is how bad that statement was hamidm. It put you further out further out on the funny farm than masadi!!

#360 Posted by hamidm2
"sometimes i wish i had a sandwich shop instead of being one paycheck away from having to drink wine that comes in a screw-top bottle!"

Oh! I too love small business owners...as long as they don't claim that they are Harvard Business school graduates and just love to flip burger to help the humanity! heheheh

#355 hamidm: you say "anything that was worth doing was done by the idle rich"

I assume that brilliant statement is what won you the alpha beta gamma delta tau delta or whatever it is you won in college. I have noticed that you are beginning to slip recently.

#355 Posted by hamidm2
“actually i will go even a step further and say that anything that was worth doing was really done by the idle rich�

You are on a roll!

Read Taki Theodoracopulos some time. http://www.takimag.com/blogs/Theodoracopulos/

He is my fave conservative!
Here is a little sample of his astute writing about the rich and famous.

“Like Count Dracula, I used to love the night, hence nightclubs and late-night parties were the staple of my life. Back in the good old days when Eisenhower was president, I used to sneak out from my boarding school near Princeton University—50 miles from New York City—and go to El Morocco, the greatest nightclub of its time. Elmo’s, as it was called by those in the know, was zebra-striped, the great room circled by wide and comfortable booths where the more elegant types were seated. In the middle were tables where lesser folk—the nouveaux riche, the flashy, and those whose names appeared in the newspapers—would spend their boozy evenings. To show you how much the world has changed, back then appearing in the papers was a no-no, even where nightclubs were concerned.�

Re: # 351

hp mian,

..... sometimes i wish i had a sandwich shop instead of being one paycheck away from having to drink wine that comes in a screw-top bottle!

..... i have a lot of admiration for small entrepreneurs - specially those who give up 'secure' corporate jobs to strike out on their own..... i know quite a few guys who have done it and will be the first to admit that they are better men than me ....... it takes brass knockers

hamid writes "anything that was worth doing was really done by the idle rich (us elite, as masadi would call them) ."

You don't have a clue do you. The US elite are those that dominate its economic, political and military institutions, interchange between the three, share a worldview. Never before in the history of mankind has such concentrated ownership of resources and power been seen in the hands of a group that has so barbarically used it to the detriment of humanity. Comparing the means of production in the 7th century to today's highly concentrated, monopolized capitalism and the military might at its disposal which it has incorporated into the "life" of its everyday system just tells me that these fools have lived ignorant useless lives and will die the same way...

Re: # 354

HP Mian:

How long will it take you to start bringing Mother Burners?

Re: # 355

Hamidm sahib:

I have read this essay too.

Re: # 353

Massaddi Mian:

You just proved it again that just throwing a number (#349) in this case does not prove anything, or does it?

Re: # 349

anil mian,

.... actually i will go even a step further and say that anything that was worth doing was really done by the idle rich (us elite, as masadi would call them) ..... even our prophet (pbuh and his camel) would not have been able to pull off his religion without his old woman's money ...... one of my favourite bertrand essays ssays is " inpraise of idleness" ........ i have been aspiring to be rich and idle all my life so that i can do something meaningful - unfortunately, work (which is a four letter word) has been getting in the way !

Re: # 351

HP Mian:

Finally arrived.

hamid writes "masadi,

...... you are a bigger fool than i thought! ..... "

The "summa cum laude" comment was in response to anil claiming I knew nothing of economics, it had nothing to do with fixing flats or fetching donuts. As is quite clear from his #349 post, he has no clue about wealth creation and his comment regarding the 7th century shows that he has even a lesser clue about capitalism...

Re: # 347

Massaddi Mian:

Produce examples of a eliteless society, or please go and start, else start with the street pedalor of Gujranawala and learn capitalism from him.

Massaddi Mian you have learned less than a street pedlar of Gujranwala. That state university must have donkeys in the class where you got Suma Cum Laude.

#346 Posted by hamidm2

“if i remember correctly, went to harvard and has created employment for hundreds of peons like you�

hehehehe…your sense of humor is priceless! Hehehe. I just can’t stop laughing!
The guy can’t even write two coherent paragraphs…
Every Indian sandwich shop operator claims that he went to Harvard business school and created 100s of jobs… hehehehe…

On Unplugged, delhiwala is also a Harvard Business school graduate. He too owns a hot dog stand…Heheheh…

masadi,

...... you are a bigger fool than i thought! ..... even i am a tau beta pi, alpha pi mu, and beta gamma sigma - what does that prove ?....... nothing, at all ..... i still have to call aaa to fix a flat tire and i certainly can't run a donut store better than a patel with a fifth grade education ..... but i am okay with that ....... you, my friend, have a serious self esteem problem ..... here is a remedy :

.... every morning, before you twig your teeth, look in the mirror and repeat ten times:"i am good enough, smart enough, and doggonit, people like me !"

Re: # 346

Hamidm Sahib:

I thank you for mentioning it. My company grew to be the largest exporter and exported 50% of all computer hardware from India.

Massaddi Mian talks about the U.S. Elites. He has not produced a single example in human history where the wealth (for capitalists), or work (for Marxists) was created without this group. Even in his 7th Century Islam there was a very impressive Elite Class. For starters slave trade was very active, despite all the egalitarianism.

The instance a hunter-gatherer hunted and gathered more than he could consume, and someone else did not. Massaddi Mians elites were born.

And not anyone can graduate summa cum laude, only a very small percent, and an even smaller percent with economics majors do so.

hamid writes "masadi,

..... anyone can graduate suma cum laude from tuskegee community college "

I did not attend community college, I went to a state university, nonetheless the proof is in the "pudding"- comparing my posts to his says a lot about our education and the lowered standards of Harvard university. Many a halwai in Gujranwala has created jobs for dozens of people, doesn't prove his crap about the world should be taken seriously. Now go __ off.

Re: # 340

masadi,

..... anyone can graduate suma cum laude from tuskegee community college - it does not prove anything ........ and please stop comparing youreslf to anil mian who, if i remember correctly, went to harvard and has created employment for hundreds of peopns like you ....... you should be trying to emulate him instead of mouthing off like an imbecile .......

Re: # 343

Massaddi Mian:

Let me say one more thing to you.

The street pedlar in Karachi, Lahore or the town you are, knows more about capitalism. He lives it everyday. He does not even know how to spell "summa cum laude". Frankly, if this all you know, you must return your degree, stop pedaling whatever you are pedaling. Start with the street pedlar you will learn more.

Anil I think you have humiliated yourself enough here by your posts that any high school dropout can do better than. It is time to pick of the pieces of your destroyed reputation and make a graceful (if that is possible) exit...

Re: # 340

Massaddi Mian:

"....I graduated summa cum laude,..."

This prove that you have a complex, also does not disprove that you may be the *** that you called upon to disprove.

What is the basis of Marxism? What is that depression proved?

I do not even bother to tell you what "New Deal" was all about.

Many people roam these streets and they will someday make a difference in the lives of our people

Note what I wrote on Jan 12

#83 Posted by masadi on January 12, 2008 1:14:16 pm
Regarding US involvement in the BB case, it is no stretch of the imagination to note that the US has always supported the military and the dictators it throws up in Pakistan. In fact so close is the relationship that Pakistan Army, totally alien to the Pakistanis, is a foreign occupation force doing the bidding of the US to the extreme deteriment of Pakistan. The the "deal" involving the dominant and lesser institutions, the military and the political would enhance the status quo (strengthen the dominant institution) and not "democracy" should be no surprise to any thinking person, that is why the US was pushing for the "deal", first and foremost to salvage the uniform and military from Musharraf, which was achieved after much bloodletting and lathi charge and emergency, and later to pave the way for a new military takeover to overcome the "love lost" of the earlier (1999) one. This second part of the deal was what the BB was beginning to understand and coming around, and so the "deal or no deal" was turning out to be a no-deal. That is why the US found it quite convenient, using the Pakistan Army (with whom it had a dual fulfillment of purpose in this) to get rid of the BB.

Now read what Fatima Bhutto says to CNN yesterday:

KARACHI, Pakistan (CNN) -- Some of the toughest criticism of Pakistan's pro-democracy movement comes from an unlikely source: the 25-year-old niece of Benazir Bhutto, who says Pakistani party politics do nothing but support military rule. It's an environment, she said, her late aunt is partly responsible for.

Fatima Bhutto says she's not interested in "perpetuating a really ineffectual form of politics ... because of my name."

"At this stage, we are in a state in Pakistan where so-called democratic forces are only interested in coming into office. So ultimately, they only prop up dictatorships," she told CNN from her home in Karachi.

Anil you need to shut up when you dont know something. I graduated summa cum laude, top of my class, beating out all chinese, Indians and US students in my university in economics. Now go ___ yourself

Re: # 337

Massaddi Mian:

You have ZERO kowledge of economies and negative knowledge of wealth creation and capitalism.

So quit inviting SOBs to disprove anything you claim. You must figure out why you have negative knowledgde. You devour and destroy knowledge and then hurl insults. You are so dishonest that you cannot acknowledge your weaknesses, let alone work on them. Learn it, when I was wrong and I apologized to you.

The fact that you abuse, you disprove everything yourself. No one does a better job than you, yourself.

BTW, Capitalism can never be in your par course of 7th Century and Mills. On top of it you showed your ignorance of Marxism when you acknowledge all time high Wealth, also. You do not even know what Marxist principles are based on.

I do not have knowledge of Islam or Quran, to determine if your knowledge in these two is strong and accurate.

You could not answer simple questions that had been put to you. You have no decency to debate, because you have nothing to debate. Your garbled thought are around recycled and discarded ideas, and your filthy vocabulary - SOB or not SOB.

You cannot even acknowledge that KNOWLEDGE is all time high too, because you have no idea of knowledge before and after your par course - one more time 7th Century and Mills. You know it too well that this acknowledgement will make you rethink entire basis that you have faked your thesis upon.

I challenge any sob to disprove what I have written in #337.

By the way capitalism died its natural death during the Great Depression, what exists now is thuggery to manage looting. With the New Deal capitalism lay down its arms and surrenderd to socialism. It died as a system long before the collapse of the SU.

chalta writes "when the great depression came, the US populace was not vested 95% int he capital markets directly and indirectly. When the great depression came, there were no social services in teh country aside from faith based housing and soup kitchens. When the depression came there were no safeguards, monetary polciy that can cushion downturns in the economic cycles."

Like I said before this fool throws out shit without knowing a single thing about what he writes. Explain to me please how "vesting" in the stock market will prevent depressions? Even though these numbers are BS, major stock is still owned by the top 1%, the rest of the so called 95% own next to nothing, how can they when the bottom 40% of the US is deep in debt with zero net worth? So you say when the inherent "down" cycle comes and people not only lose their jobs but the value of their savings that will somehow prevent the "great depression"

Then if no social services existed isn't that pure capitalism, why put socialism into the mix to save the system, and don't give me your monetary policy shit, it can in no way prevent a great depression when it comes. What you have been hearing about America's economic collapse is "inherent" in the capitalistic mode of production unless WW2 comes up to rescue them or the try to invent WW2 as America has been doing ever since the New Deal in order to drive back social services and the socialism it has been forced to incorporate into its system, much like the minorities it has been forced to incorporate into the system, and whenever a fool from among the peons of the pure capitalists comes along like GWB and drives back social services and starts war to counter the slump, you can be damn sure the depression is around the corner unless you have a better manager of this tyranny come along like Clinton....now go F yourself

#331 Posted by chaltahai on January 22, 2008 1:43:34 pm


BTW, I head this doom and gloom back


It has a name: America Is Doomed Syndrome(AIDS for short)..it is spread by unprotected intellectual copulation between leftists and islamists...

no, I meant in aggregate India, Japan and other countries hold much more. I don;t think a punitive chinese strategy will benefit china at all. Which side of the fence do you think Japan sits? It is still a formidable economy and even more formidable global aspriations. Most countries will hold reserves in multiple currencies, I am not sure if they are all ready to dump the dollar for the Euro or Renminbi yet.


Bubba, wall street peole becomes crooks when the market goes down and they are not mentioned when the markets are booming. Unscrupulousless hurt wall street workers and HNW investors more than main street in the recent subprime debacle. Products like CDO's and CLS's are bought and sold by banks who created the market, investors were hedgefudns and alike. I am not sure if any one on chowk has CDO's in their protfolio.

Law is protecting exactly whom in wall street? I haven't seen bailouts for insitutions...where are you getting this from?

bubba: how do you fight a financial war?

Re: # 330 Posted by chaltahai on January 22, 2008 1:35:40 pm

[Bubba yaar, India, Japan and EU hold more in US treasuries than China.]

Are you claiming that India has more than 1.4Trillion USD? I am surprised that The Economist magazine does not identify that kind of wealth in India's foreign reserves.

It is well known that China has over 1.4 Trillion USD (out of 14.4T US GDP) That is almost 10% of the US GDP. What kind of economic books are you reading about India's foreign reserves?

[#331 Posted by chaltahai on January 22, 2008 1:43:34 pm
Economic downturnsa re part and parcel of the capitalist system...America is not going anywhere..]

And nobody is suggesting that America is going anywhere. It is only its innocent people that are being shafted by the unscrupulous financial gurus like people at Bear Sterns, BAC, Wachovia Bank.

Did you hear that the State of Maryland is suing Wells Fargo for over charging its minority community with their interest rates?

[..you can shift allocations to manage volatility but your options are cash or equivalents not other markets.]

This issue is not only about the stock market but what happens between humanity and the wall street. People are being shafted by those crooks on the wall street, and the law seems to be protecting them. It is about time that Congress passes some laws to protect its financial house.

BTW, I head this doom and gloom back in 1987, when I was a senior in highschool, again in 1991-2 when I graduated from college, in 2001 after 9/11...in 2003 to a lesser degree. Economic downturnsa re part and parcel of the capitalist system...America is not going anywhere..it is still the most innovative place in teh world. Capital flows ebb and flow, credit crunches happen...investors in teh long term still favor US than otehr places. it is not going to change for a very long time..you can shift allocations to manage volatility but your options are cash or equivalents not other markets.

when the great depression came, the US populace was not vested 95% int he capital markets directly and indirectly. When the great depression came, there were no social services in teh country aside from faith based housing and soup kitchens. When the depression came there were no safeguards, monetary polciy that can cushion downturns in the economic cycles.

Bubba yaar, India, Japan and EU hold more in US treasuries than China. If you for a moment think this is just a value play..you are mistaken.

Re: # 323 Posted by chaltahai on January 22, 2008 11:31:01 am

[....with the widest of asset classes for the investor set.] ok, with $1.4 Trillion Chinese money back into the US economy, buying treasury bills. This is what we usually call "funny money". Now, once again, the US is heading for cheap money and worthless dollar, and once again, the "financial gurus" (those creative geniuses!) will once again trap millions of people in their "get rich schemes" and once again, another group of people will be wiped out in 5 years or so.

US is heading for a financial war with the rest of the world, and the weapon of choice is the dollar. You keep USD at your own risk. If China does not get away from pegging their curreny to the dollar, we will have dollar equal to the Chinese curreny to equal out the current account deficit. How about that?

chaltahai, your perseverance and patience is to be admired(T)

chalta writes "with the widest of asset classes for the investor set.."

Nevermind the fact that regardless of your pretense you don't know what the hell you are talking about, but when the great Depression came the "widest of assets" didn't amount to much now did they? Such is inherent in this economic system unless it is either socialistically or militaristically managed, that is the "house of cards"- and someone with your dimwit level of intelligence cannot get it...

Re: # 316 Bubba - man, can you do me a favour...if you have access to the article can you post it here....

chalta writes "Don't like it..tough..."

Nothing "tough" about it. People who have the will and desire not to give up faced with tyranny are not all dead yet...

US will always do what is the interest of the US. Don't like it..tough...sit on your thumb and rotate..

masadi, seriously dude..you need a vaccine or something. House of cards? ukp this is the largest economy in the world, with the widest of asset classes for the investor set. empty speclative manipulative shit is for idiots like you who don't understand value. that is why you belong in a third rate college in pakistan...which is funded by US aid.

skeptical writes "Lets be more realistic...
Things are not as one sided as some of us make them to be....
Social and political phenomenon are complicated affairs....
They orginate through interaction of a host of factors...
Some time contradicting and some time mutually reinforcing factors"

If there ever was a bunch of meaningless fluff that I ever read coming from someone who has not a clue about what he is talking about, this is it. Things aren't complicated they are very simple, they are deliberately made complicated by those that want to hide their domination. The US has been dominating Pakistan's uber institution, the Army, and the Army has been directing Paksitan's politics and economics- what is so "complicated" in these facts. If you deliberately try to muddy the waters and look at micro BS and miss the bigger picture, regardless of your "activities" nothing and I repeat nothing will change. Locate the problem, educate the people and then try to develop institutions that serve and represent the people: there is absolutely no other solution and ignoring the source of the problem, US neo-imperialism in our country will only result in you running around like a rat around in a wheel perpetually and getting nowhere

hamid writes "i blame masadi for the drop in my net asset value -"

The last laugh will be on your fool, regardless of your feelings of grandeur, the flimsy house of cards that the US elite have constructed for the mice to run around thinking they have "made it", crumbles overnight and they are left high and dry. How secure do you feel now but the idiot that you are you cannot see where the real blame lies. The land of opportunity is defined by fluff, empty speculative, manipulative fluff- and that includes their economic system...

hamid writes "i blame masadi for the drop in my net asset value -"

The last laugh will be on your fool, regardless of your feelings of grandeur, the flimsy house of cards that the US elite have constructed for the mice to run around thinking they have "made it", crumbles overnight and they are left high and dry. How secure do you feel now but the idiot that you are you cannot see where the real blame lies. The land of opportunity is defined by fluff, empty speculative, manipulative fluff- and that includes their economic system...

iron mask writes "Re: # 257

sorry, Masadi - rather unfortunate that I cannot fathom your language and your logic is rather pedestrian"

Pedestrian or not, it is still superior to your no-substance posts. Maybe why it has been said umpteen times is because history has been bearing witness to how the US has been using Pakistan and how its been destabalized and impoverished as a result. How am I wrong, put a sentence together (if you can) and then tell us, otherwise you're just a moron like the rest of these fools

#316 Posted by bubba,

What with bringing down the value of dollar, and the way China plays its currency

You're on to something here. What is it?

:~)

#313 Posted by hamidm2,

I don't like living in USA, let alone Michigan. Any other offers?

Ok hamid mian, you could agree (somewhat!) that the US is getting into a financial war with the rest of the world. No?

What with bringing down the value of dollar, and the way China plays its currency (outlined in the latest edition of The Atlantic Monthly - by James Fellows) Yup, that liberal fellow who promotes War Games against Iran inside Pentagon. What do you suppose all these events are?

hamidm #313: I hear nothing but the sound of wailing coming out of Michigan. My classmate who chose to work for Ford tell me Ford cheated them out of their pensions. Blame this one on the evil elite - Detroit auto executives who invented planned obsolescence, ghastly tail fins, poison gas factories on wheels aka SUVs.

otoh, hang on to your house, and in due course it will become prized ocean-front property thanks to global warming brought to you courtesy of sticky-fingered auto execs among others...

Where's Masadi today??? (I need a coffee break).

Re: # 312

i will sell you my house in michigan :) ..... a 4000 sq ft house on a 1/3 acre lot here goes for about the same as a 2000 sq ft highrise apartment in dubai ........i blame masadi for the drop in my net asset value - the man knows how to get back at us for not letting him join the club

#311 Posted by hamidm2,

Dubai? Hell no. But you can sell it to me if you like :)

Re: # 309

zeemax,

.... maybe you are good for something, after all ....... do you think it is time to sell property in dubai ?

masadi strikes back!

.... in the last hour i have had to put off my plans to join tahmed in his full time war against masadi and his quest to reengineer islam for the twentyfirst century ..... the stock market is crashing because masadi dumped his holdings when he left the us in a huff because the professor at prairie view a&m refused to accept his dissertation on "conspiracy of the evil us elite and the boll weevil against cotton farmers in uzbekistan" .....

#308 Posted by jayp,

Following the bomb tests, there was a foreign exchange crunch. Pakistan "de-dollarised" the savings of pakistanis, indians came up with resurgent india bonds. Polar opposite reactions.

You missed that India had strict foreign exchange controls already in place (no resident dollar accounts) while Pakistan had liberalized back in 1992. It just reimposed controls.

But it is generally accepted in Pakistan that there could have been a better way than the dollar account freeze. However, the situation was so dire that no risks could be taken.

Also, in effect no resident lost any money because all those dollars had been accumulated at an average rate of 32, but encashed at 46.

Point taken though in good faith.

(P.S, I didn't denigrate India's success in reverse FDI. I said that I meant India well)

Zeemax,.

Remember the good old days of pakistan when the economy was booming, it was considered a role model for the developing countries. It all tumbled because it was built on hatred, TNT, and the american funds due to military alliance. Remember the U2 mission, it took off from pakistan.

Remember the dot com bubble, Tatas and Reliance bought Flag and TYCO for around 500 million, now they are valued more than 4 billion.

Every crash, there are opportunities and it is a question of picking the right one.

Here is an India pakistan comparison. Following the bomb tests, there was a foreign exchange crunch. Pakistan "de-dollarised" the savings of pakistanis, indians came up with resurgent india bonds. Polar opposite reactions.

Rest is history.

Instead of denigrating indian success, pakistanis should try and learn. You can be the seed of change.

Zeemax,

According to you, now there are again 4 jihadi groups with different names.

What I am telling is that these name tags are the creation of pak elites. Basically jihadis are the same, they want to kill the kafirs and that is their unity. They can change the targets, today they are indians, tomorrow it could be chinese.

The centrl theme is that they want an islamic kalifayet. Your groupings are based on the jihjadi targets, not on the basis of any kind of ideology. It is the ideology and the methods that unite the jihadis, the tagets are shifting and your classification is at most very unstable.

Zeemax,

Unlike the korean and chinese economies, indian economy is dominated by domestic consumption, if I recall indian exports are only 15 percent of the GDP while that of chinese is around 50 percent.

Indian FDI is also very low, and there are very strict controls on FDI.

Proof should come in a few days, let us see, Indian stocks will recover faster than others.

Then is the reliance IPO, oversubscribed 75 times for a 3 billion dollar float and that is not small change by any standards.

Re: # 257

sorry, Masadi - rather unfortunate that I cannot fathom your language and your logic is rather pedestrian. You need to delve a bit deeper - what you say has been said umpteen number of times and many are yet to see some ofthese claims validated.

Anyway thank you for your thoughts - which seem insightful to you.

BTW if you used less of the Moron, eff_you type of language you would come across as the thinking person you aim to be. The language you use is that of an uneducated, illiterate, uncomfortable little moron.

Anyway have a great day!

Re: # 235
We are missing another country...Sri Lanka.
The so called fall of Islamic glory is due to the following reasons.

Middle eastern people have dominated over Europeans using Indian metallurgy.
http://archaeology.about.com/b/2006/12/01/damascus-steel.htm

They have spread whatever they were able to understand from India and China. Remaining knowledge was lost or some is still there with India and China only ( Vastu, Feng Sui, Geeta, Vedas, Yoga, Ayurveda etc...), which Arabs were not able to learn and pass it to the Europeans. India, at the peak of its civilisation, used to concentrate more on agriculture, administration than terror/killing. When Islamic invaders ravaged Northern India, the cream of the society (non priest class Brahmins), were killed and India has failed to improve further in its traditional areas ( Medicine, Science, Literature, Philosophy, Mathematics, Astronomy), apart from generic professions like Agriculture, Craft... The supply line is cut and so called Islamic contribution had stopped there. If you follow the historical chronology, it will be clear.
The worst of all, whatever resouce Middle Eastern people used to get from India and trade with Europe and Africa, after the discovery/regularisation of sea route from India to Europe/Africa, the land route had become obsolete.

#302 Posted by shishapa,

shisha-apa, you forget that a lot more people read Chowk than those who actually interact on it.

Re: # 291

Masdiji,

That is such a long shot. I doubt people
who make things happens visit chowk.
Doubt they have time to read/interact on
chowk. And the opposite is also true,
people on chowk are hardly any influential
in policy making of their nations, they
just come here to while away.
That is what I think.

Masadi sahib,

(Stability from whose perspective)

From the POV of the Imperialist Power and its local Peons.

Regards

later

#298, Stability from whose perspective, certainly not the people's perspective, those times were very traumatic for the people, regarding the colonizer's stability that is what I mention is also getting increasingly tedious with "every successive coup"- division through trauma is their age old tactic of control and I increasingly see them leading Pakistan in the same direction.

Masadi sahib,

You can create stability without institution development at least for a short period of time. For instance USA propping up a General (Mush or otherwise) who does the bidding of the imperialist (and his own benefit) without building up insitutions. For eg Zia had a 11 year stable rule without creating any viable insitutions.

Regards

majumdar "...as in the past..."

I have commented on that as well regarding every "successive coup"- reread those posts...

#295, stability is a necessary condition for institution development, institution development (and not importation from the colonizers) is a necessary precondition for people empowerment. An empowered people will never tolerate subservience to outside masters that like a virus destroys a nation's vital organs

Masadi sahib,

I presume you believe that US wants Pakistan as a base from where it can spin its web against Iran, A'stan, Central Asia and China. In that case, why shud USA want a unstable Pak. A better thing wud be a stable but subservient Pak which it has been in the recent past.

Regards

Re: # 291

Massaddi Mian:

"...empire of tyranny will similarly collapse...."

Change is the only constant. Don't fool yourself that change will come thru your inventing time machine that will take all back to 7th century, or even to your "7th Century to Mills" par course.

You have and will continue to miss out on both counts - participate in the world's increased wealth and increased knowldege.

I do not know how can you call yourself to be aal of the witness, prosecutor, jury and the judge to pass judgment on Tahmed sahib, and Hamid Sahib. Intellecutal is something you are not.

Notice, I call you Mian and not sahib. Pandit and Mian for me are below par. For those who agitate, I am born pandit.

Re: # 291

Massaddi Mian:

You will blame the U.S. elitist if you have constipation in the morning, and will call Tahmed sahib, and Hamidm Mian to inform them of your constipation through your morning mantra.

A 'delightful' article from Europe! 'Well' done, Pakis!

"Whereas radicals of North African origin have long been the main jihadist threat in Europe, Spanish authorities say 12 of the 14 men arrested Saturday are Pakistani. The reason that's so troubling, counterterrorism officials believe, comes with the considerable risk of two different arching lines eventually crossing: the fast-growing size of Pakistani communities on the continent, and their close ties to a homeland where Islamist radicalism is rampant.
...The concern across Europe is we'll soon be facing the same kind of threat Britain has been fighting for several years now," explains a French counterterrorism official, referring to Pakistani communities within the U.K. whose cohesion and relative insulation have inadvertently created niches for virulent extremist activity well hidden from outside eyes. "What this means is growing numbers of tightly knit Pakistani immigrants around Europe who maintain close and frequent contact with people back home. Against that background, the eventuality of surging radicalism in Pakistan spreading to Pakistanis communities in Europe is virtually a given."
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1705561,00.html

shishapa "masadi,

How is highligting the faults of US elites on this
website going to change that reality?"

Someday someone from this website might be able to pass through the corridors of power and be able to do something, until that time let me try to educate and whatever opportunity I get to implement. As you can see hamid and tahmed, similar to mainstream morons that perpetuate US mythology around the globe for perpetuating slavery, have been thoroughly and completely defeated, look at their frustration and their total inability to counter simple arguments. The weak foundations based on which the US elite have established their empire of tyranny will similarly collapse....until then let me speak the truth for the truth shatters the very source of the evil these people perpetuate in order to deny people what is their right, a decent existance, not one of deprivation as the shaitan's system has perpetuated across the globe...

Re: # 170 Posted by hamidm2 on January 20, 2008 7:09:38 pm

[tahmed,

..... one more thing - we, that is you and i, need to stand united against masadi .... he is the real enemy who threatens our children and our sanity ........]

hamid mian, why are you ganging up on masadi? how is he threatening your sanity? Are you afraid that you might get the masadi complex? What is it in masadi that makes you so afraid?

Re: # 288

masadi,

How is highligting the faults of US elites on this
website going to change that reality?
How do you plan to eradicate the scourge of US elites?
Are you accomplishing your goals using other means as well?
Just asking.

chalta writes "More people die because there are more people to die."

Here you have it the morality of the "best minds" (more like retards compared to the rest of the world) from India, more people die says he because there are more to die. The idiot does not want to acknowledge the fact that more are dying NEEDLESSLY, due to preventible causes because of distribution mismatch because of a system set in motion by the US elite that is based on greed and inhumanity.

What happened to no trade unless we get kashmir?

I'll bet some of this is going to build the dams the indian government is planning on the rivers that run from Indian Kashmir into pureland...

Pakistani cement exporters lose earnings due to cutthroat competition

* Value of Pakistani cement exports to India has fallen from $74 to $70 per tonne during the last few weeks due to competition amongst the exporters

Staff Report

KARACHI: The value of Pakistani cement exports to India has fallen from $74 to $70 per tonne during the last few weeks due to competition amongst the exporters, said an industry source here on Monday.

“Pakistani cement makers are fetching less value for their products from buyers abroad because they are competing with each other unnecessarily,� said a top official of a cement-exporting firm. “It is unnecessary competition because the demand from Indian buyers is more than our capacity to export to them.�

He said the realizable value is higher than the local firms are currently getting. “The buyers there can offer much more to us,� he said.

While the cement exported through land route is fetching $70 per tonne, the cement sent by sea is now priced at $63 per tonne as compared to $65 per tonne four to six weeks ago.

Similar is the case of cement exports to the Middle East. Whereas the Pakistani companies were selling their products to Middle East buyers at $62 per tonne, now they are shipping for only $60 per tonne, another industry source said.

Is it just me or is pureland's debt going up?? maybe it's down as a % of the cooked GDP numbers..

External debt to rise to $46.571bn by 2011-12

By Sajid Chaudhry

ISLAMABAD: External debt of the country to reach $46.571 billion by the end of fiscal year 2011-12 from $39.593 billion by the end of the current fiscal year 2007-08.

Ministry of finance is targeting to bring down external debt to exports ratio from 175.2 percent in the fiscal 2007-08 to 143.4 percent by the end of fiscal year 2011-12.

Estimates agreed by International Monetary Fund (IMF) and ministry of finance reveal that external debt to export ratio was 243.9 percent in the fiscal year 2002-03, which has been brought down to 220.5 percent in fiscal year 2003-04, 191.2 percent in the fiscal year 2004-05, 175.6 in the fiscal year 2005-06, 176.7 percent in the fiscal year 2006-07.

External debt was $35.679 billion by the end of fiscal year 2005-06; it increased to $37.461 by the end of fiscal 2006-07 and would reach 39.593 billion by the end of current fiscal year.

that is because there are more indians and chinese than ever before..but growth raes are leveling off in India and china massadhi. More people die because there are more people to die. preventable diseases like the plague killed a lot more of the population than aids. Influenza killed a lot more than ebola. what is your fking bro..FOOL!

Concentrated ownership? wealth has always been concentrated in the hands of the few...the good thing is that the US culture of meritocracy, innovation, access to capital allows people to use the system to make their lives better.

Ever year 10M+ indians come out of poverty. Mroe in china..all ebcause of the globalization push of the US.

You live in the fools world which imagines redistribution of wealth that belives in everyone in the world is created equal. they are not..if that was a case..I wouldn't be doing what I do and living a life that I lead and you wouldn't be sitting in a third rate gov't college in pakistan spouting idiotic musings. It's not fair..but blame your genes..not the US

Re: # 283

Massaddi Mian:

".....The world has not seen greater wealth...."

Finally!!! You acnkowledge.

Your exercise for tomorrow is to acknowledge that:
"the world has not seen greater KNOWLEDGE."

So,
Where have you been Massaddi Mian?
What is your dream, Massaddi Mian?
Are you messing up the beautiful minds of others, you have no business messing up young minds?

The world has not seen greater wealth amidst so much poverty, distributed among so few ever in its history before. More Indians and Chinese in absolute numbers are in the gutter today than ever before in the history of the world. More people are enslaved due to the concentrated ownership of means of production and wealth than ever before in the history of the world. More people die every single day around 45,000 a day, according to conservative estimates, of preventible causes, than ever before in the history of the world.

Indians are better off than they were before the reforms of 1991, the chinese are better off than they were before the reforms of 1978. that is 2/5th of humanity right there..future for these people is better than it has even been in the history of these people. For iNdians it was no different whether the british ruled or the mughals or ashoka..or whomever..Indians were always poor. when India controlled 25% of global trades in teh late 1700's, indians were still poor. treasuries of the kings and emperors never meant distribution of wealth...globalization push lead by the US has benefited Indians more than any other system known to man or god.

over to you Anil...bye Masadi. Make sure you look under the bed before you go to sleep - the Evil Elite may be hiding there.....

#278 masadi: "People who read my posts here know that I NEVER lie"

no kidding!! ha! ha!

ps: in #275 you said you were not going to respond to any more posts I wrote. and a couple of minutes later, your post #278 made that a lie too!! the pile of lies just got higher...

masadi #275 So, your piling one lie on another didnt work. then piling gibberish didnt work. so now you have decided to walk away fron the Leaning Tower of Dishonest Masadi that you were building. That is good. The first step towards your rehabilitation. I shall let brother Anil take over from here.

The review is published on the back cover of the book by the publisher, the parts that he decided to use. People who read my posts here know that I NEVER lie, unlike morons like tahmed who are caught lying again and again, because their entire lives are based on the mythology that descrbes the worldview of the US elite, democracy and freedom where none exists....

anil sahib: greetings. Massadi is preparing a pile of lies that is becoming higher than the Leaning Tower of Pisa - and even more shaky. Let us pray for his good health and recovery from this terrible disease of fibbing. :-(

Re: # 272

Massaddi Mian:

"...Now go __ yourself...."

One more use.

How many more to go, before new day with new mantra begins?

#273- I have decided not to waste time responding to posts of morons who cannot understand simple sentences. I was given good advice to ignore posts by intellectual inferiors that I have ignored to my own detriment. Like I siad to you earlier go __ yourself. I never claimed that the world is getting either better or richer, you just don't know how to read like the vast majority of your countrymen here and other morons like tahmed...

#272 you are lying again. You said that Zinn wrote a "detailed review" of your book. And you refuse to post it by writing this piece of gibberish: "nobody posts the entire review"!! The pile of lies keeps getting higher and higher....

Re: # 263

Massaddi Mian:

Please have yourself for dyslexia also.

while at it kindly let me know who is claiming that "the world" is getting richer?

I clarified with you that in your sentence "World" was the operative word.

When you are busy creating the new "Third World", I am certain you can see that you cannot be a positive contributor to wealth creation that makes the "World" richer.

I have one more question, who has authorized you to create new "Third World", that you are so busy forming?

Can you not increase your vocabulary, if you cannot increase your knowledge?

Moron, nobody posts the entire review except magazines, book seller sites, as well as publishers only use excerpts of the review and I have already provided a link to that on Amazon. It is printed on the back cover of the book. Now go __ yourself. I have not written a single lie, you are the habitual liar like your masters who have overtaken the world based on lies and fool their own people based on them.

#269 Fine. So lets see the detailed review. This is your chance to redeem yourself for the lies you have written since this morning.

#257 OK. So provide a link to the "detailed review" he wrote about your book. That would be a start to back your claim.

Knowing someone well DOES NOT mean that the person is your friend. You claimed that I said that when I did not. You tahmed are the lair and a moron as well/

#266 masadi: Trouble with you liars is - when caught lying, you try to get away by piling another lie on top of it. and then another. all you get is a heap of lies.

So, in #266 you have merely added another lie when you said that you "said no such thing" about whatshisface being your friend. What does "Zinn knows me well" imply if not that he is your friend (or at least an admirer)???

Now, you can add another lie to the pile in trying to explain the above...

Leaving aside the semantics which have a zero difference in meaning, the 100% truth is that he knows me well enough to have read my book, communicated with me and taken time out to write a detailed review, and I know him well enough based on the same interaction. Tahmed cannot counter a single argument I come up with against his baseless fluff regarding the US, so he reads every word of my sentence claims that I said that Zinn is my friend, he certainly is not. I correct that and state that I only stated that I know him well (when I had stated that he knows me well), and this snake claims that I am caught in a lie. Now you see how sorry his argumentation is. He is the actual liar claiming that I said Zinn was my friend and he is a bigger liar when he uses this BS in order to discredit my arguments claiming that I am a "habitual liar".

Now you understand why I say that people like this moron are the real enemy of the people? They will try all kinds of lies like the Bush WMD lie when they are stumped by facts

tahmed writes "The issue is this - I caught you lying (yet again). "

BS. You claimed that I said he was my friend. I said no such thing I had said he knew me well, no big difference between I know him well and he knows me well. You are picking on this because the sorry fool you are you cannot counter any single argument and instead of your own lie claiming that I said he is my friend you pick on a simple slip that has almost zero real difference in any meaning. Now go __ yourself. You all are so pathetic that it amazes me the kinds of posts you come up with to counter mine...

This is what I wrote in #253 and this reading challenged idiot claims I was saying the world is getting richer and better:

---
#253 Posted by masadi on January 21, 2008 11:36:25 am
Only people who are illiterate and "data challenged" (not to mention retards) will claim that the world and its population is getting richer and better on any indicator of social well being. It is very easy to talk of on a "% basis" as this illiterate below does knowing full well that even if the percentage of the poor remains stable the absolute numbers of them increase by leaps and bounds due to rising population from earlier times which means more overall misery for humanity....

masadi #240 you write "This is the best this sorry fool can muster against my arguments whether Zinn knows me well or I know him well"

You are lying again!! The issue is not whether Zinn knows you or you know Zinn (as you say above). As I told you, I couldnt care less. The issue is this - I caught you lying (yet again). And that "best" is good enough to expose you for the habitual liar that you are.

anil writes "Massaddi Mian"

"...the world and its population is getting richer and better ..."


Don't lie fool I have never claimed that the world and its population is getting richer and better that was chaltahai and I merely quote him to refute him. You are a third rate liar.

Re: # 260

Massaddi Mian"

"...the world and its population is getting richer and better ..."

These are your own words. You will see the world, only when you will quit creating new "Third World", and start have a very your own dream, and go onto realizing it.

I have said that you have a beautiful mind. Just mis-using it.

Re: # 246 zeemax's reply to SR

'But you hate Islam so you will never understand that, nor even attempt to, and I accept that as a reality which, unfortunately, you are in significant and large company.
}

why are you wasting your time on a man who is not even a new low in stupidity and superficiality.

Btw. aap ka qournash maabdoaulat kay darbaar aalia mien tasleem kiya jata hai. mogambo khush hua.

lol...you still remeber that Qournash?

#256, anil, the world and its population is not getting better and richer, a tiny minority might be but not the world, especially given the enhanced wealth produced not by this elite but by the majority world that is being stolen from them by the rich nations and their economic system. Do not try to attribute words to me that I never said.

Re: # 252

chaltahai utters this filth..

{at no time in the hsitory of humanity have more people on a % basis or in absolute numbers have access to wealth, better health, longer life spans than now. life is getting better but for the islamocommunist chuckleheads }



Armchair optimists like chaltahai have always been fond of statistics, percentage, and avergaes. chaltahai ji...statistics are like miniskirts...they reveal something but they conceal the most crucial part that matters at the end of the day{in the night}

'If a rich man{ like hamid ghadaar} eats a whole chicken(nadeedon ki tarah} and a poor man eats nothing ,on average, they eat half a chicken each.

be optimistic...hamid's gutter is full.
world is getting better.

Re: # 252

chaltahai utters this filth..

{at no time in the hsitory of humanity have more people on a % basis or in absolute numbers have access to wealth, better health, longer life spans than now. life is getting better but for the islamocommunist chuckleheads }



Armchair optimists like chaltahai have always been fond of statistics, percentage, and avergaes. chaltahai ji...statistics are like miniskirts...they reveal something but they conceal the most crucial part that matters at the end of the day{in the night}

'If a rich man{ like hamid ghadaar} eats a whole chicken(nadeedon ki tarah} and a poor man eats nothing ,on average, they eat half a chicken each.

be optimistic...hamid's gutter is full.
world is getting better.

Iron mask writes "Iraq I can understand - the arabs are a diffcult bunch to tame and buy - also they needed to be taught a lesson that YOU NEVER EVER TAKE ON THE US and try to fight it by killing innocents "

Which world are you living in moron, the US and its satellite Israel has been killing innocents ever since its inception, the US has been interfering in the economy and political setup of those nation states that were created by colonial decree, and then you accuse the Arabs on "taking on the US" when practically half of it either hosts US troops on the ground or is totally in the back pocket of the US. We can talk when you get your facts straight moron. The US has designs on Iran, it is in Afghanistan, it has long term plans regarding the Russians and the Chinese, a stable Pakistan interferes with these designs, especially since ruling it from a distance through the Pakistan Army has proven to be more difficult with every successive coup. Regarding Iraq, Kuwait would have relented from its illegal position pre Saddam invasion but the US wanted the war, a war financed by the other Arabs for the purpose of destabalizing the region and killing innocents therefore it pushed aside every single effort for peace before the war and caused greater destruction and killing than anything Saddam could have ever accomplished in Kuwait ever- and it were lies then and lies before the 2003 war again. Morons like you wont get it...

Re: # 253

Massaddi Mian:

"...the world and its population is getting richer and better ..."

Your emphasis is on the world. Correct?
You are so confused that you cannot comprehend what others are saying here.

BTW, you gave away your physical age.

What did you do to your mind?
Why did you let it stop from growing too?

Re: # 241
Masadi mian,

thats right - tell me what EXACTLY would US gain by destabilising pakistan? Iraq I can understand - the arabs are a diffcult bunch to tame and buy - also they needed to be taught a lesson that YOU NEVER EVER TAKE ON THE US and try to fight it by killing innocents - it will snd the arabs back to Neanderthalism. As a side benefit it gets access to oil.
What is there is Pakistan ? The educated/elite pakistanis are known to sell their souls for a few dollars - so why go to the trouble of destabilising it when it can be bought.

You need to ask yourself the Juliet question - Masadi? Are you man or eunuch - in bought cases the US buys your ass for Upliftment - they have the wherewithal for that.

This is the best scholarship the sum total of Indians have been able to produce, I by my lonesome have clobbered the sum total of them combined and then they make big claims for "Reference book writers" from India and the IT miracle. Read these posts and deal with your shame...you are a bunch of morons the sum total of you here, I can just hope that the ones left back home in India have more to offer or your damn country is doomed

Only people who are illiterate and "data challenged" (not to mention retards) will claim that the world and its population is getting richer and better on any indicator of social well being. It is very easy to talk of on a "% basis" as this illiterate below does knowing full well that even if the percentage of the poor remains stable the absolute numbers of them increase by leaps and bounds due to rising population from earlier times which means more overall misery for humanity....

massadi doesn't understand..he can't...at no time in the hsitory of humanity have more people on a % basis or in absolute numbers have access to wealth, better health, longer life spans than now. life is getting better but for the islamocommunist chuckleheads

where is the middle class disappeaning? It is growing in India and china..who cares about the muslim world. if they cannot get with the program...their problem.

Re: # 249

Massaddi Mian:

It seems you are so challenged that you only like to talk to yourself. You need to change this too.

You have picked up a few words. Rest of your vocabulary is few "old recycles", and mind is spent on creating "new mantra" for daily abuse.

Just do not become narssisitic.

Anil writes "Please don't create a "Third World", the Second World had disappeared, before you emerged from diapers."

I know you still wear diapers in your adult age but when the SU "disappeared" I was well past puberty and in college. The Middle Class shrinking and disappering does not mean the haves and have-nots have ceased to exist. Get a brain fool, except for a handful of Western "white" nations and a couple of their tiny occupied lands and a couple of city states the rest of the majority world is in shambles, well over 50% of the world's population and over 86% of Indias lives under $2 a day. The "Third World" caused by the "First" (their terminology) is a fact whether you dimwitted mind realizes it or not.

Re: # 245

Massaddi Mian:

You seem to be creative in inventing mantra.

Please don't create a "Third World", the Second World had disappeared, before you emerged from diapers.

shankar writes "how would you change policy, hypothetically, if you were the President of Pakistan? "

Very simple, read my post on the MLK thread regarding Malcolm X.

#239 Posted by SR,

Next thing I might find is that your ilk even starts suggesting that in a fiat monetary system it always ends up being so ... you might even come around to entertaining the possibility of monetization of gold.

Yes, SR, a fiat monetary system is bound to end up in this. I never denied that. All I had said was that a fiat monetary system enables rapid growth, and it does. But then, you can't prevent huge economic upheavals and social unrest with its consequences.

Monetizing of Gold is not the answer. I wish you would get rid of your hangup with gold. It could be copper or any other metal. It's the same. What counts is intrinsic value in the end.

That's why I support the Islamic economic system (and not Islamic Banking BTW. There's no such thing in Islam). That is all based on 'value', and not paper.

But you hate Islam so you will never understand that, nor even attempt to, and I accept that as a reality which, unfortunately, you are in significant and large company.

For you its going to be "go __ off"

Re: # 242

Massaddi Mian:

"... go __ yourself ..."

Do you realize how many times you have used it today?

What is your mantra for tomorrow?

anil writes ""...He learnt from other cultures and expanded upon that knowledge..that's a GOOD thing..."

And this is coming from Arjun.

You must re-train you mind to concentrate on this aspect instead"

Where do you think the bigot argum in his 230 something post get this idea from. From what I had state in post #159

(quote)the most anyone came to monopolizing it were the Muslims of the middle ages because unlike the Indian, Western and Chinese minds of the age their minds were free of superstition and bigotry so they could use the work of ohters and build upon it.(end quote)

Closet bigots like you anil support your own kind like arjun who leaves not a stone unturned to spew his hatred, and then descend on others like vultures with all kinds of lies. You are a sorry excuse for a human being...

anil writes "Improve your class"

I have more class in my little pinky finger than you can muster ten generations on either side (front and back) of your dimwitted mentality, offspring and ancestors....now go __ yourself, people of your mentality don't understand decent conversation, they need to be spoken to in the language they understand...

Iron mask asks "Will someone enlighten me on

(a) What the US gains by destabilizing Pakistan? "

After hearing the whole tale, the genius asks if Juliet was the man or the woman.....which world are you living in fool, what would a stable Pakistan be like viz a viz Afghanistan, Iran, the Pakistan Army and even India and China....think about this and how this regional stability can affect US hegemony, or you might as well ask what did the US gain by destabalizing Iraq....

tahmed writes "masadi #229: : So, now you are caught lying again. That is not what you said:

masadi #172 " the author of the book Howard Zinn knows me well"

masadi #229 " I didn't say he was my friend, I said I know him well""


This is the best this sorry fool can muster against my arguments whether Zinn knows me well or I know him well, amazing and quite pathetic and he terms this a "lie". Ha ha, these fools like anil, arjun hamid and most of all tahmed amaze me, read their posts and the content which has absolutely zero substance. The fool arjun challenges me to name some names, I do, he does not, and then he picks up on the sifr and that is the end of that, the zero is one tiny part of what the Muslims achieved with algebra, trignometry and geometry, and that small part would have died a short death were Muslims of the middle ages not the globalizers of knowledge. You can take these facts of history and shut the hell up or you can keep grovelling like a two year old whose mama dropped him on his head after birth...

Re: # 230 zee ["... It's all a house of cards. If you don't believe me, ask SR ..."]

Okay, I'll take the bait this time.

YES, we know, your emperor's cloths ARE see through.

It IS a house of cards, so to speak.

And, if I may be so bold as to add that I'm glad that more and more of you banker types are being honest enough to acknowledge this in public. Next thing I might find is that your ilk even starts suggesting that in a fiat monetary system it always ends up being so.

God forbid, you might even come around to entertaining the possibility of monetization of gold.

...SR

Re: # 236

Massaddi Mian:

"...He learnt from other cultures and expanded upon that knowledge..that's a GOOD thing..."

And this is coming from Arjun.

You must re-train you mind to concentrate on this aspect instead, and not in enrichening your brain with "next abuse of the day" that you can hurl at the others.

Improve your class, and also learn that "the Second World" disappeared before you emerged out of diapers. If you are living in the Third World it is entirely your creation.

Wow, what a Creator you are. You must be mighty proud of yourself. I suspect your friend OBL, or a variety of him, may indeed like you to join them. They are busy creating the latest "Third World" somewhere on this Earth.

#235 Posted by Pew_Research on January 21, 2008 7:18:03 am

ouch...you're going to have to send a preparation-H to gaithesburg, MD...attn: prophet tahmed(peace be unto his self-righteous left butt cheek)...

#227 Posted by masadi on January 21, 2008 5:38:20 am

masadi...it's been clearly proven to you that the mathematician you named carried the most important concepts of the indian numeral system, the zero and the place value system, to the west ....so for you to say that the person who carried the knowledge gets more credit than the person who invented it is totally bogus..only an islamist would buy it..

let's make one thing clear..I think mo abu-ibn-whateva, the guy you named, is a great mathematician. He learnt from other cultures and expanded upon that knowledge..that's a GOOD thing...unlike mo's homies of today who blame the man for keeping him down, mo abu-ibn-whateva realized that knowledge isn't a finite resource...if you have knowledge and you give it to me, now we both have knowledge.

again: the point still stands...if the "US elite" is keeping everyone down, how come Indian and Chinese people are doing well enough to write books that are read by the children of the US elite keeping them down?

Re: # 234 Anil, Tahmed32:

I am doing a cut and paste since Chowk has blocked hyperlinks. I am including

Here are the first and last articles (in order) from The Economist's Special Report on India and China

The link is (perhaps only for subscribers):http://www.economist.com/specialreports/displaystory.cfm?story_id=1 0053169

Running fast
Nov 8th 2007
From The Economist print edition

China and India have much to offer the world of technology, argues Simon Cox (interviewed here), but more still to gain from it

The Royal Society
TOWARDS the end of the 11th century, while tardy Europeans kept time with sundials, Su Sung of China completed his masterpiece: a water clock of great intricacy and accuracy. Standing almost 12 metres (40 feet) tall, Su's “Cosmic Engine� wavered, it is said, by only a few minutes in every 24 hours. From twin tanks filled by servants, a steady flow of water was cupped and spilled by a series of buckets mounted on a wheel. The rotation of the wheel turned the clock, as well as an astronomical sphere and globe that charted the movement of the sun, moon and planets. Drums beat 100 times a day; bells chimed every two hours. A replica, painstakingly built with contemporary methods, now turns in Taiwan's National Museum of Natural Science.

Clockmaking was only one scientific endeavour in which China and India comfortably led the world before the 15th century. China outstripped Europe in its understanding of hydraulics, ironsmelting and shipbuilding. Its machines for ginning cotton, spinning ramie and throwing silk seemed to lack only a flying shuttle and a drawbar to match the 18th-century contraptions that launched Britain's Industrial Revolution. Clean your teeth with a toothbrush, rebuff the rain with a collapsible umbrella, turn a playing card, light a match, write, pay—or even wipe your behind—with paper, and you register a debt to China's powers of invention.

India's genius, then as now, was in software not hardware. Its ancient civilisations ushered in a “mathematical revolution� from the fifth century, when Aryabhata devised something like the decimal system. In the seventh century Brahmagupta explained that a number multiplied by zero was zero. By the 15th century, Madhava had calculated pi to more than ten decimal places.

After the 15th century, however, the technological clock stopped in both countries, even as it accelerated in Europe. This peculiar loss of momentum, noted Joseph Needham, a great historian of Chinese science, takes some explaining. Why, he asked, did the science of Galileo emerge “in Pisa but not in Patna or Peking�?

In his book “The Lever of Riches�, Joel Mokyr settles on a simple explanation for China's technological stagnation: the country's imperial state lost interest. Its purposes were better served by continuity than by progress, and there was no rival source of power and patronage to pick up the threads it dropped. Roddam Narasimha of India's National Institute of Advanced Studies reaches a similar conclusion for India. “Up to the 18th century, the East in general was strong and prosperous, the status quo was comfortable, and there was no great internal pressure to change the global order,� he writes.

That diffidence no longer hampers either state. Both China and India are now restless with technological ambition. China's government does not have the luxury of choosing between progress and stability; it cannot enjoy social peace without economic advance. For the past 30 years it has tried to turn the clock forward. By 2015 its research scientists and engineers may outnumber those of any other country. By 2020 it aims to spend a bigger share of its GDP on research and development (R&D) than the European Union.

India, for its part, surveys the future with uncharacteristic optimism. Its technological confidence has grown immeasurably thanks to the success of its software and IT firms. The heirs to Aryabhata and Brahmagupta, India's digital ambassadors have won acclaim for their mastery of ones as well as zeros.

But even as India's technological powers make a splash in the world, they stir only the surface of its own vast society. India produces more engineering graduates than America. But it has only 24 personal computers for every 1,000 people, and fewer than three broadband connections. India's billion-strong population cuts both ways. Whenever an Indian demographic appears as a numerator, the resulting number looks big. But whenever its population is in the denominator, the number looks small. It is like looking at the same phenomenon from opposite ends of a telescope. As of now, India matters more to technology than technology does to India.

This is a pity. India and China still have more to gain from the adoption and assimilation of technology than from invention per se. Some of their best minds are adding generously to the world's stock of knowledge, but the more urgent task for the countries themselves is to make wider use of know-how that already exists. Indeed, the World Bank has calculated that India could quintuple the size of its economy if it only caught up with itself—that is, if the mediocre firms in its industries closed the gap with the best. Both countries miss out when policies to promote invention, such as China's push for “indigenous� innovation or India's recent patent laws, serve to stymie diffusion.

A year in China, foreign residents say, is like ten years outside. Its clock is already turning rapidly. But the cogs and levers that drive technological progress are as intricate and delicate as Su Sung's mechanism. China's government is in danger of trying to do too much. Its monumental efforts to educate and train have filled the tanks of its innovation engine. Now it is time for it just to let the water flow.



TECHNOLOGY IN INDIA AND CHINA

Splendid miscegenation
Nov 8th 2007
From The Economist print edition

Something borrowed, something true


“IF YOU can clean it, you can scribble on it,� says Sridhar Vedantham of Microsoft Research India. Many of the dividing walls in the group's handsome Bengalooru office are made of glass, and much of the glass is decorated with doodles, questions, deductions and equations. One of five Microsoft research laboratories around the world, it employs over 40 researchers, from cryptologists to anthropologists, working on a range of problems, from code-breaking to rural computing. The group has “both the obligation and the licence� to think beyond Microsoft's bottom line, says its founder P. Anandan, an expert on computer visuals. As the writing on the walls suggests, the researchers enjoy a lot of freedom to think and express themselves, to burst with the kind of ideas that are best had standing up.

Imaginechina

Winsome consumption
India is now host to R&D centres for over 100 multinational firms, according to the OECD. The country ranked as the sixth most popular location in a recent survey of some of the biggest R&D spenders in the corporate world (see chart 6). China does even better: it has over 750 centres. Some, like Microsoft's lab in Beijing, pursue blue-skies “R�; most busy themselves with practical “D�. Quite a few were set up to win government favour: “PR&D�, as it is called.

Other foreign companies outsource bits of R&D to “contract research� outfits. In Bengalooru Clinigene carries out clinical trials on India's plentiful supply of patients. In Shanghai WuXi PharmaTech employs 2,600 people helping the big pharmaceutical companies, such as AstraZeneca, to find new compounds and develop new drugs. Far from scribbling on the windows, its scientists are forbidden even to note down the formula for a chemical compound when they enter the firm's central facilities. They must write in code, so that the firm's other scientists, working for other clients, cannot understand their jottings.

In the company's laboratories, rotary evaporators turn, separating substances from solvents. Thanks to China and India, innovation has undergone a similar process of division and separation. The chemists, clinics and engineers the two countries can offer have relieved multinational companies of some of the labours of bringing a new product into the world.

In his lab, Mr Anandan tries to turn India's bright sparks into original thinkers. A true researcher, he says, is someone who does not want to work for someone else—though he might not mind being paid by someone else. Mr Anandan takes particular pleasure in watching his charges lose their exaggerated reverence for the leading scholars in their field. From a distance, it is easy to imagine such luminaries are “seven-foot giants�, he says, and that you will be “burnt by their aura�. But he long since discovered they were shorter than he was—and often just as confused.

Richard Freeman of Harvard University worries that America's technological pretensions will also be cut down to size by the growth of Asia's scientific workforce, and the stagnation of America's. In 1970, he notes, America granted over half of the world's PhDs in science and engineering. By 2010, that share will fall to just 15%. Moreover, almost a third of science and engineering students in American graduate schools in 2005 were foreign. Such numbers prompt Mr Freeman to ask: are we helping them to catch up, or are they helping us to stay ahead?

The fears of the leaders and the latecomers mirror each other. The leaders worry that when a company such as Microsoft looks for the best minds to stock its research laboratories, it no longer confines itself to Europe, Japan or America. It also alights on Bengalooru and Beijing. The Chinese worry that when their best students look for a place to apply their talents, they do not turn to China's domestic champions. They flock to foreign firms instead. When Microsoft unveiled its Beijing lab in 1998, one local newspaper described it as a “talent enclosure movement�.

India's traditional fear of multinationals has eased in recent years. Now China more than India is prey to “techno-nationalists�. Its accomplishments do not satisfy them, because none is pure-bred. The country's technology stock is thoroughly miscegenated. Even its vaunted 3G-telephony standard has a German accent.

Piggyfrogging
This special report has found much to fan the fears of the techno-nationalists: India and China's precocious economies have done more piggybacking than leapfrogging. They have made clever use of foreign technology—assembling it, copying it, servicing it and customising it—but their firms have yet to create very much to rival it. The nationalists may fret about this, but an economist instead finds much to applaud. A country should face the risks and frustrations of invention only when it has no easier route to economic progress.

Magnum

Chinese invention lights up the skyBesides, firms enjoy great scope for innovation, even if they do not march across the technological frontier. Indian and Chinese firms have a comparative advantage in finding new uses for existing technologies, and combining them in novel ways. This kind of “architectural innovation� may be scientifically modest, but it can nonetheless be commercially significant. This was, after all, how Japan's electronics firms came to dominate their market.

In making this kind of innovation, both countries can draw inspiration from their vast ranks of adventurous consumers, who may be a greater spur to technological creativity than any number of white coats or government exhortations. This is one reason why a nation's technological fortunes rest as much on its powers of adoption as they do on its powers of invention. The shallow penetration of computing in India and the retarded spread of 3G phones in China should trouble their policymakers as much as the number of patents filed or scientific papers cited.

Besides, now that R&D is globalised, what does it mean to say that a technology is “invented in India or China�? What counts as “indigenous innovation�? India's Nicholas Piramal uses Swiss machines to study Indian herbs, thereby adding to a bio-library it bought from a German multinational. India's TCS serves a Canadian bank, drawing on workers from Canada, America and India, using a software application from Switzerland. “Do you call it 'made in India'?� asks S. Ramadorai, the company's chief executive.

Like the electrons passing through a chip, knowledge can circulate between countries. But just as silicon must be “doped� before it will conduct, so developing countries must mix imported knowledge with ideas of their own before they can truly assimilate them.

If that is what China means by “indigenous innovation�, then it will continue to prosper. If it is ready to mix and match, and to learn from foreigners and, most important of all, from its own consumers, it will thrive. But the state should not fancy that technology can be owned from bottom to top, or that innovation can be accomplished by decree. And in a country that still censors the internet and distrusts the free flow of information, knowledge does not yet conduct as well as it might.

China's Ministry of Science and Technology recently held a meeting with the OECD in Beijing to discuss the country's “innovation system�. One local participant left feeling a bit dissatisfied. Presentations were given; discussion ensued; careful assessments of China's patents, publications and PhDs were offered. But he was tempted to ask a simpler, perhaps more pertinent question: could someone please help me unlock Wikipedia?

Tahmed sahib:

I have that copy of the Economist at home, I am travelling till first week of Feb, after that I can scan the pages and email to you if you will give me your email address, or anyone else who wants a copy of China - India technology competition and contribution article email me their addresses at: anilkapuria@yahoo.com

Re: # 137

Hamidm sahib:

"...masadi mian,

...... you should really see a shrink ..... just read what you wrote : ..."

Massaddi Mian needs a brain transplant, even he does not know what he writes. Massaddi Mian should post that paragraph of his writiing on his forehead and walk the street of his town. People will recognize him for his distinguished qualities.

230 posts, and I am non the wiser. Even MP (PM?) has lost me with this article of his.

Will someone enlighten me on

(a) What the US gains by destabilizing Pakistan?
(b) What is it doing to destabilize the country?
(c) who is it employing to do it?

Zeemax? Tahmed32? Masadi? hamidm2? rf786? Ahmedmadani? anyone?

masadi #229: : So, now you are caught lying again. That is not what you said:

masadi #172 " the author of the book Howard Zinn knows me well"

masadi #229 " I didn't say he was my friend, I said I know him well"

#207 Posted by jayp

Again indian and technology. It was only a few years ago that chowk was flooded with ...

Business or technological progress means nothing without a global Political presence. You know ... people/governments siding with you and all that. Just USA as big daddy is not enough for durable sustenance, because that big daddy itself, even though domestically it will not hurt significantly even in the worst case scenario, is extremely vulnerable economically to carry the others along.

What you consider India's economic headway in Western big business as a huge success, it certainly is, and I wish India well, but it can all vanish in thin air in a breath.

I mentioned CDOs. These are collateralized Debt Obligations backed by Credit Default Swaps written on securitized assets of all sorts which are in turn written on derivatives on the underlying assets, which assets are obscure at best ... and little documentation exists turning these into legal claims.

Credit Default Swaps are the key. All of these are cleared by just ONE Investment bank in the world. All of the trades. If there're defaults in these, that's the meltdown I mentioned earlier. A country like S. Korea needed to seek IMF help after the 1997 currency crisis just because of their writing these default swaps and it couldn't put up with the claims. USA has trillions of dollars of exposures in these instruments.

It's all a house of cards. If you don't believe me, ask SR.

Fool, I didn't say he was my friend, I said I know him well, and the "knowing" is regarding his comments on my book and that our ideas match. You as a pathetic immoral fool, get stumped by arguments and then start running around fluttering like a chicken with its head cut off.

masadi: you dont need to say someone is your friend in order to do that. another proof of why you couldnt tell the truth if your life depended on it. and your excuse is not even coherent, you genius.

Arjun: a couple of scientists here and there does not mean that Indian and Chinese society is doing well under the US system of domination, those people you mention form less than a fraction of a fraction of a percent of their populations.

Masan... I am not claiming any credit for Muslim scientists of old. Read the posts before you blurt out foolishness. Your friend Arjun didn't believe that any reference books of the past were written by Muslims and challenged me to give him some names, that is what I presented. Now go ___ yourself.

tahmed writes "In that case you drop names for no reason!! "

No, I drop names not for the authority of the name but for the ideas expressed by the person, whose book you happened to be reading...fool

majumdar writes "Glory days as in when Muslim imperialists were ruling over non-Muslims"

And what makes you think I support any imperialism. If Muslim society falls back to its glory days in order to develop a self concept, that does not mean that I support any kind of imperialism. Note however that you cannot translate today's imperialism or even Western colonialism to "Muslim imperialism", there were qualitative differences between the two.

zeemax #221 Jayp needs his pills again.

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#195 ahmedmadani: you saying: "I am thinking of not contributing as friends are getting angry with me and I am getting despised. "

Who is despising you sir? How dare anyone despise you!! Tell me his name and I will despise him in return so much he will start remembering his milk of Class Six. Same for getting angry. Thank you sir.

#205 Posted by jayp

... they also talked about various shades of jihadis ... kashmir jihadis sectarian jihadis afghan jihadis al quida.

Yes yes, but that was before. Now things have changed. Now there're just four umbrella groups after mergers and so forth.

One is the Global agenda fighters who are all non-Afghan and non-Pakistani - a very small core group that's Al Qaida for you. It is no more than a brand name ... an idea ... which is now a global franchise. They don't interfere in Pakistan except giving occasional sermons against Musharraf.

Second is the Taliban who are Afghans and fighting Nato, not Pakistan because their legitimate government was removed by NATO. They have nothing against Pakistan.

Third are the Pakistani Taliban who are all locals and do not want Pakistani State to interfere in their assistance to Afghan Taliban's war, and are now fighting the Pakistani State when it didn't stop its interference. Fair enough.

Fourth are a combination of all the Kashmir Jihadi groups such as Jaish, Tayyaba, Harkatul-Mujahideen, and the sectarian Sipah-e-Sahaba, and Lashkar-e-Jhangvi. These are just settling scores when a free for all is underway. The latter do not have any local or global agenda other than sectarian enmities. This was the group responsible for the Peshawar Imambargah attack.

So, it would be clear exactly 'who' should the Pakistani state be talking to, and 'who' it should be going after. At the moment it is all upside down.

Please update your information in the light of above.

Masadi writes: "I don't "drop names" to prove something by the name fool".

In that case you drop names for no reason!! Once again - you have been caught red-handed trying to cleverly promote yourself in your never-ending efforts to become achieve greatness through Chowk. You would have to get up pretty early in the morning in order to pull a fast one on Inspector Tahmed!!

#170 hamidm: Masadi has already won. At least in terms of destroying your sanity. You were even beginning to sound like him. I believe the scientific name for this disease is Lysosomal Oxidative Whipworm Inflammatory Quatrochowkpostneuropathetic Mesadiitis (or the LOWIQ Masadi for sort). You were exhibiting the early signs of this tragic disease in which the patient starts calling people names while seemingly discussing things normally. In its later stages (which Masadi has started exhibiting lately, I fear), the patient starts writing four posts on chowk (and thus the term "Quatrochowkpostneuropathetic" above) in efforts to prove that the earth is flat.

But never fear. Dr. tahmed is at your service!!

#131 Posted by hamidm2

... this is the letter he sent to the negro king of abyssinia and then followed up with letters to other unbelievers :

err ... hamidm FOOL! Muhammad never invaded Abyssinia ... Nor did Umar ... nor anyone else. Why? Because Negus (and not 'negro' ... you racist bigot) gave refuge to the early Muslims before Hijrat. Muhammad never forgot that favour. That letter is an invitation and not a threat FOOL!

But, a threat sounds something like this, and a classic, and the very best speech ever written:

Abu Bakr:

"I have learnt with regret that under the misguidance of the Devil you have apostatized from Islam, the true faith of God.

I am sending to you a Muslim force consisting of the Muhajreen and the Ansar. I have instructed them not to launch the attack against you, without offering you lslam in the first instance. He who repents, re-enters the fold of Islam, desists from hostile activities against Islam, and does good deeds will be forgiven and granted amnesty. He who refuses to accept Islam, and persists in hostilities will be given no quarter. Force will be used against him, and it will not be possible for him to avert that Allah has ordained for him. Such persons will be put to sword, slaughtered, or burnt to death. Their women and children will be taken captive. Nothing short of allegiance to Islam will be accepted.

If after considering this warning, any person seeks his refuge in Islam, such faith will stand him in good stead. But he who persists in his apostasy will never be able to humble God. I have instructed my envoys that they should read this message of mine in public gatherings. Calling the Azan will be regarded as an indication of the acceptance of Islam. If there is no Azan this will be taken to mean that the tribe persists in its apostasy."

Like that? You should quote this one from now on :)

#195 Posted by nkg on January 20, 2008 8:56:19 pm

That's not even the point...

the point that flew right over masadi's head was this: He keeps claiming the US elite are keeping everyone down. If that was indeed true, how is it that Indians and Chinese are doing quite well in the "US elite" dominated system? Why do Indians and Chinese accomplish so much in the US elite dominated system?

masadi,

since you are an expert; how would you change policy, hypothetically, if you were the President of Pakistan?

Folks I think this article is about US conspiracy to destabilize Pakistan. I'm sick and tired of hearing India's achievements. It is no different than masadi claiming credit for some Muslim inventions / discoveries thousands of years ago.

Though there is some positive change, that is not much of a change for very large sections of the Indian population. We are still long ways to go before claiming any victory.

Ahmedmadani,

please stay and comment. You are one of the sane commenters and bring up good points.

Re: # 206
This is similar to claims made by Vinay Katiar of VHP. India was spread upto Turkey, so VHP will claim all the places in Middle East.
There is no point living in past, if we can not learn a single bit from it...

Regarding IT Coolies...A Nice examples...
Please find such coolies in Pakistan...

http://www.forbes.com/finance/mktguideapps/personinfo/FromPersonI dPersonTearsheet.jhtml?passedPersonId=937467

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pad masree_Warrior

http://today.reuters.com/news/articleinvesting.aspx?view=PR&am p;am p;symbol=HPQ.N&storyID=245341+02-May-2007+BW&type=qcna

Polaris successfully placed in intended orbit

Sriharikota (PTI): India on Monday launched an Israeli satellite 'Polaris' from the spaceport at Sriharikota by a homegrown Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle (PSLV) and successfully placed it in the intended orbit, ISRO said.

The PSLV-C10 lifted off from the First Launch Pad (FLP) at the Satish Dhawan Space Centre at 0915 hours with the ignition of the first stage, ISRO said in a statement released here.

////////////////////////////

While India is putting satellites in orbits, Pakistanis are proud of muslims inventing zero, and pakistan is fast reaching that ...zero in anything that has to do with civility.

No meaningful discussion can take place without this over emphasis on US responsible for everything that is happening in Pakistan...
While their involvement in our sphere is true but we have a tendency to blame just everything on US....
If US is responsible for everything...
Then there is no point even discussing things....
After all what can you do in the first place.....
You can not influence US.....
Lets be more realistic...
Things are not as one sided as some of us make them to be....
Social and political phenomenon are complicated affairs....
They orginate through interaction of a host of factors...
Some time contradicting and some time mutually reinforcing factors....

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nkg,

There are a lot more companies, Suzlon Energy in wind power,
Bajaj in scooters, Hero in cycles, Tatas in medium trucks..

We do have to give some credit to the pakistanis..

Largest tenants at Guantanamo

Largest military surrender

The latest is capture of 200 soldiers by rag tag taliban

Second largest suicide bombings last year

Bharat Forge (Kalyani Group)-Forging Automobile components

Both are within top 10 in their respective fields....

Nano Jokes

. There are two sticker prices for Nano, one with empty tank and the other with full tank.

. Tatas are planning to throw in a NANO in the boot of Land Rover as a surprise.

. Jaguar options include Ricaro Seats or a Nano.

.

Zeemax,

Again indian and technology. It was only a few years ago that chowk was flooded with the ilks of Romair calling the indian IT workers as code coolies. Now i do not hear that and there is talk of Indians taking over Capgemini.

The same was talked regarding indias ambassador cars, now the talk is about Jaguar and Land Rover falling in Indian Hands.

Wait for Ranbaxy, now they are only generic manufacturers, wait a few more years.

In India, the fundamentals are right, education and experience.

There is an old saying in my part of the world, sit before stretching the legs. Slowly, after more than 25 years, teh Reliances and Tatas and Mahindras are doing just that.

By the way, worlds largest undersea cable net work is owned by Indians and wait to see its impact on web.

Re: # 156 dost-mittar ["... It is refreshing to read Pakistani news media these days and finding almost a complete lack of venom for India and even those horrible hindoos ..."]

It's gotten even better. Yesterday was the 10th of Muharram and today in the magazine insert that comes with DAWN I saw a full page article titled "Brahmins in Karbala"... (since I do not subscribe to any newspapers anymore and was glancing through this one earlier today at someone's office, I couldn't finish the article) ...

Supposedly there were ten Brahmins from India who had travelled to Arabia for some reason and had somehow joined up with Imam Hussain on his ill-fated journey to Kufa. When the party was intercepted at Karbala the ten Brahmins stood by the out-flanked Imam and gave a glorious account of themselves by gallantly fighting to the last man alongside the doomed Imam. To this day, it appears, that their descendents are referred to as the Husaini Brahmins. They are NOT Muslims. They are very much Hindus, but they are completely exempt from all the Brahmin rituals and practices.

One thing I didn't understand and that was why did the Brahmins fight. I thought it was the Khataris that wielded the sword while the Brahmins stuck to their books and didn't use anything sharper than the tip of a pen.

I will go and get a copy of the paper later today to finish reading the article.

...SR

Zeemax 99 and others

If you care to read the posts of pakistanis, like Romair a few years ago, they also talked about various shades of jihadis.

There was the kashmir jihadis funded by the ISI only targeting indians.

There was the sectarian jihadis, the shia versus sunni ones, the problem of Karachi and the killing of shia doctors.

There was the afghan jihadis funded by the US.

Then there was the al quida.

Now they all are one and the same, and if you read my eralier posts I had argued that jihadis are general purpose, and teh training they get only makes them insensitive and they will kill any one that the mullah says.

This has come true.

Ranjit bhai,

(first you need to provide roti and clean drinking water)

Agreed. Unless you eat and drink, you can't c*** either. (LOL)

Regards

Majumdar bhai.....first you need to provide roti, kapda, makaan and clean drinking water....that is happening as we speak. Potties will come later...

Ranjit bhai,

I am glad that the Tatas have come up with cheap car and cheap drinking water filters. Now if only they cud come up with a cheap potty....

Regards

Re:ahmedmadani#199

Ahmed Madani sahib, please understand that the Tata Nano is a symbol of what is happening inside India. People are finding uniquely Indian solutions to their problems instead of crying all day about US elites or dreaming about some utopian social justice based on sharia. In other words, practical steps are being taken for the benefit of massive numbers of people. The Indian people are doing this on their own based on their own creativity and genius rather than waiting for government to solve their problems or for the US to hand out charity.

The Tata Nano may not be a fancy car, but it is a fairly decent small car that hundreds of millions of people can afford. It is built entirely by Indian technology and Indian parts. So once it gets produced, imagine the impact on Indian manufacturing sector. Not only Tata, but all the parts suppliers and the entire supply chain will benefit from the boom in car sales. That will mean more jobs for people, which means more people will be able to afford the product and so on. As people get richer, they can buy bigger cars while people who move up from the lower classes to middle class can buy the Nano. The price of two wheelers like Scooter will reduce and lower class people will be able to afford those. The ability for people to move around freely will open up more options to grow the economy like the Model T from Ford did for USA in 1900s.

As the car owning class increases in size, they will pressure the government to build better infrastructure such as highways. My father has been involved in the Golden Quadrilateral project which involved construction of 4 lane or 6 lane highways connecting the 4 metropolis - Delhi, Bombay, Madras and Calcutta. That project is already complete and the road network has become far better than before. It is improving all over the place in terms of new construction of flyovers and highways.

The other great benefit from projects like Nano is that it is pushing all manufacturers to find solutions for Indian consumers. The competition is putting pressure on everyone to deliver better products. Already Mahindra and Mahindra have come out with plans to build very cheap Sports Utility Vehicles (SUVs) for families. Tatas have even come up with cheap water filtration devices that can provide high quality drinking water to millions of people at a cheap price of Rs 200 (5 dollars).

The bottom line is that the Indian industry is humming with action and that is good for jobs and future growth of India.

Re: # 115
Total Insane...
The richest person in UK is Indian ( L N Mittal)....Arcelor-Mittal is the largest steel company in the world. India had invented steel. So, the largest steel company in hand of Indians is the most appropriate, the civilised British has understood that...You need to come out of islamic mindset to understand that...
Tata Nano is appreciated even by VW, Fiat people.

Re: # 197 Now I wrote about Indian toy car industry.
I lost what I wanted to say. Now I remember.
Generally there is system ( useing complex word- management word) for things to do. Like if you want to buid house , first you make foundation then upper story. Now most world does first road and they build cars. Like here we first built motorways and then started mechano car building stuff of ie breaking crates of kits of parts and then assembling.
You have good engineers no management thinking ( as romair siad many time indian IItians are stunted by lack of managers to put them work and make them hard.) India is strange country in sense. You build nano platform which appears with likness as car but you have no roads to drive. So just little mismatch. Now indian executives ( executives means people who can hire and fire )in air industry have ordered 300 airmachines that good and dandy but now they are worried out where they can park them at night. Everybody has problems you have little different problems.
You need good lesson from Lahore management for basics of planning. Your country is strange and I am very charitable, such things only happen in India.

Re: # 193
Islamic savegery may be the most potent reason for destruction of our ( indian) intellectual superiority, but, whatever opportunity we have got after British has kicked out moslems, we have not utilised that to full potential. The main reason is population explosion and our misguided priority.
We are spending huge amount of money to provide universal education, but not enough for centre of excellence. That is silently killing the excellence. The reservation menace is already taking its toll on IITs. The politicians are forcing IIT faculty members to downgrade to mediocre standard.

Ahmedmadani sahib,

(I am thinking of not contributing as friends are getting angry with me and I am getting despised.)

Please keep contributing. You have an unequalled skill on chowk in telling it as it is and in very simple, uncomplicated language.

Regards

Re: # 194

ahmed,adani sahib

aap mahaan hein...

Re: # 193
Everything is OK. But are we informing the Indians about our contribution towards science,mathematics and medicine? In the name of secularism, we are keeping large number of Indians (specially from north India in dark, and Congress is very successful in breaking the people's confidence).
When Niels Bohr was touring India, he has told ( In Calcutta) "...you indians have contributed nothing..." and then burst out laughter, " the concept of zero...".
Even post barbaric/moslem rule, India has produced scientists like C V Raman, U N Brahmachari,J C Bose (Inventor of Radio transmitter & Receiver, solid state antena...), Satyen Bose(Boson particle named after him),Ramanusam...
Somehow, after 1947,Congress was able to destroy the culture again. There is no point proving to others. Please bring the achievements in front of Indians to bring confidence. Hope, another 20 years, we will recover, if Ministry of Science and Technical Education is provided with proper fund and people are provided proper information.

I must confess recently studied lot about things and some book written by masadi and suggested authors and earlier did not use to read carefully and just write as some thing to do in retirement. Recent study has given me idealogical basis more on basic strong foundation and faith with courage.
Earlier YLH had confused me lot but recent reading about the emperical power elites and oppression has changed my thinking.
Before I use prfer white / fair people now i prefer no color business colorblind attitude.
I will suggest Tahmed not to read any books as I have come to conclusion more you read and more you study more foolish you become. To have good life simple formula, achha Khana and Achha Gana. All other is Lafangebazi.
I am thinking of not contributing as friends are getting angry with me and I am getting despised.

#190 Posted by masadi on January 20, 2008 7:47:36 pm


No fool, they get credit for inventing it for a village of 50 people but they certainly don't get credit for making it of use to the world, use that directly led to the computing you talk about


HAHA..place value system had nothing to do with computers?

moron..the whole concept of binary/hex/octal is based on place value...

Masadi: looks what I found in the internet(invented not by al gore but mo abu-whateva)

think about it...the joke "how many paki jihadis does it take to blow up a lightbulb" wouldn't have a punchline if it weren't for the hindu numeric system "borrowed" by the arabs...

now that's just elementary algebra...you'd know if your only education weren't that of a sociologist..

how do sociologists do algebra or arithmetic anyway? we normal people do 2+2 = 4. Do you do "US elite forced 2 and 2 to come together and make four"?

The Hindu-Arabic numeral system is a place-value numeral system: the value of a digit depends on the place where it appears; the '2' in 205 is ten times greater than the '2' in 25. It requires a zero to handle the empty powers of ten (as in "205"). [1]

The numeral system was developed in ancient India, and was well established by the time of the Bakhshali manuscript (ca. 3d c. CE). Despite its Indian origins it was initially known in the West as Arabic numerals because of its introduction to Europe through Arabic texts such as Al-Khwarizmi's On the Calculation with Hindu Numerals (ca. 825), and Al-Kindi's four volume work On the Use of the Indian Numerals (ca. 830)[2]. Today the name Hindu-Arabic numerals is usually used.

Decimal System

An early decimal system was clearly in use by the inhabitants of the Indus valley civilization by 3000 BC. Excavations at both Harappa and Mohenjo Daro reveal decimal weights belonging to "two series both being decimal in nature with each decimal number multiplied and divided by two, giving for the main series ratios of 0.05, 0.1, 0.2, 0.5, 1, 2, 5, 10, 20, 50, 100, 200, and 500."[3] Also, marked rulers at Lodhar reveal gradations of 1.32 inches (3.35 centimetres), ten of which are 13.2 inches, possibly something akin to a "foot" (similar measures exist in other parts of Asia and beyond). Markings on these and other texts reveal a number system with symbols for the numbers one through nine, and separate symbols for 10, 20, 100; thus the decimal system is highly developed though place-value is not used.

Linguistic comparison among Indo-European languages (ca. 3000 BC), shows a decimal enumeration system [4]. In early Vedic texts, composed between 1500 BC and 800 BC, we find Sanskrit number words not only for counting numbers in very large ranges, ranging up to 1019, with some puranas referring to numbers as large as 1062[5].

Historians trace modern numerals in most languages to the Brahmi numerals, which were in use around the middle of the third century BC.[6] The place value system, however, evolved later. The Brahmi numerals have been found in inscriptions in caves and on coins in regions near Pune, Mumbai, and Uttar Pradesh. These numerals (with slight variations) were in use over quite a long time span up to the 4th century AD[6].

During the Gupta period (early 4th century AD to the late 6th century AD), the Gupta numerals developed from the Brahmi numerals and were spread over large areas by the Gupta empire as they conquered territory [6]. Beginning around 7th century, the Gupta numerals evolved into the Nagari numerals.

[edit] Positional notation

There is indirect evidence that the Babylonians had a place value system as early as the 19th century BCnote to masadi: that's way before mo's time..., to the base 60, with a separator mark in empty places. This separator mark never was used at the end of a number, and it was not possible to tell the difference between 2 and 20. This innovation was brought about by Brahmagupta of India. Further, the Babylonian place value marker did not stand alone, as per the Indian "0"[citation needed].

There is indirect evidence that the Indians developed a positional number system as early as the first century CE[6]. The Bakhshali manuscript (c. 3d c. BCE) uses a place value system with a dot to denote the zero, which is called shunya-sthAna, "empty-place", and the same symbol is also used in algebraic expressions for the unknown (as in the canonical x in modern algebra). However, the date of the Bakhshali manuscript is hard to establish, and has been the subject of considerable debate. The oldest dated Indian document showing use of the modern place value form is a legal document dated 346 in the Chhedi calendar, which translates to 594 CE[6]. While some historians have claimed that the date on this document was a later forgery, it is not clear what might have motivated it, and it is generally accepted that enumeration using the place-value system was in common use in India by the end of the 6th century. [7]. Indian books dated to this period are able to denote numbers in the hundred thousands using a place value system. [8] Many other inscriptions have been found which are dated and make use of the place-value system for either the date or some other numbers within the text [6], although some historians claim these to also be forgeries.

In his seminal text of 499, Aryabhata devised a positional number system without a zero digit. He used the word "kha" for the zero position.[6]. Evidence suggests that a dot had been used in earlier Indian manuscripts to denote an empty place in positional notation. [5]. The same documents sometimes also used a dot to denote an unknown where we might use x. Later Indian mathematicians had names for zero in positional numbers yet had no symbol for it.

The use of zero in these positional systems are the final step to the system of numerals we are familiar with today. The first inscription showing the use of zero which is dated and is not disputed by any historian is the inscription at Gwalior dated 933 in the Vikrama calendar (876 CE.) [6][9].

The oldest known text to use zero is the Jain text from India entitled the Lokavibhaaga , dated 458 AD.[10]

The first indubitable appearance of a symbol for zero appears in 876 in India on a stone tablet in Gwalior. Documents on copper plates, with the same small o in them, dated back as far as the sixth century AD, abound.[11]

[edit] Adoption by the Arabs

Before the rise of the Arab Empire, the Hindu-Arabic numeral system was already moving West and was mentioned in Syria in 662 AD by the Nestorian scholar Severus Sebokht who wrote the following:

"I will omit all discussion of the science of the Indians, ... , of their subtle discoveries in astronomy, discoveries that are more ingenious than those of the Greeks and the Babylonians, and of their valuable methods of calculation which surpass description. I wish only to say that this computation is done by means of nine signs. If those who believe, because they speak Greek, that they have arrived at the limits of science, would read the Indian texts, they would be convinced, even if a little late in the day, that there are others who know something of value."[6]

According to al-Qifti's chronology of the scholars[7]:

"... a person from India presented himself before the Caliph al-Mansur in the year [776 AD] who was well versed in the siddhanta method of calculation related to the movement of the heavenly bodies, and having ways of calculating equations based on the half-chord [essentially the sine] calculated in half-degrees ... This is all contained in a work ... from which he claimed to have taken the half-chord calculated for one minute. Al-Mansur ordered this book to be translated into Arabic, and a work to be written, based on the translation, to give the Arabs a solid base for calculating the movements of the planets ..."

The work was most likely to have been Brahmagupta's Brahmasphutasiddhanta (Ifrah) [8] (The Opening of the Universe) which was written in 628[9]. Irrespective of whether Ifrah is right, since all Indian texts after Aryabhata's Aryabhatiya used the Indian number system, certainly from this time the Arabs had a translation of a text written in the Indian number system. [10]

In his text The Arithmetic of Al-Uqlîdisî (Dordrecht: D. Reidel, 1978), A.S. Saidan's studies were unable to answer in full how the numerals reached the Arab world:

"It seems plausible that it drifted gradually, probably before the seventh century, through two channels, one starting from Sind, undergoing Persian filtration and spreading in what is now known as the Middle East, and the other starting from the coasts of the Indian Ocean and extending to the southern coasts of the Mediterranean."[11]

Al-Uqlidisi developed a notation to represent decimal fractions. [12][13] The numerals came to fame due to their use in the pivotal work of the Persian mathematician Al-Khwarizmi, whose book On the Calculation with Hindu Numerals was written about 825, and the Arab mathematician Al-Kindi, who wrote four volumes (see [2]) "On the Use of the Indian Numerals" (Ketab fi Isti'mal al-'Adad al-Hindi) about 830. They, amongst other works, contributed to the diffusion of the Indian system of numeration in the Middle-East and the West.

[edit] Adoption in Europe

Main article: Arabic numerals

The first Arabic numerals in Europe appeared in the Codex Vigilanus in the year 976.
The first Arabic numerals in Europe appeared in the Codex Vigilanus in the year 976.

Fibonacci, an Italian mathematician who had studied in Bejaia (Bougie), Algeria, promoted the Arabic numeral system in Europe with his book Liber Abaci, which was published in 1202. The system did not come into wide use in Europe, however, until the invention of printing (See, for example, the 1482 Ptolemaeus map of the world printed by Lienhart Holle in Ulm, and other examples in the Gutenberg Museum in Mainz, Germany.)

In the last few centuries, the European variety of Arabic numbers was spread around the world and gradually became the most commonly used numeral system in the world. Even in many countries in languages which have their own numeral systems, the European Arabic numerals are widely used in commerce and mathematics.

[edit] Impact on Mathematics

The significance of the development of the positional number system is probably best described by the French mathematician Pierre Simon Laplace (1749 - 1827) who wrote:

"It is India that gave us the ingenuous method of expressing all numbers by the means of ten symbols, each symbol receiving a value of position, as well as an absolute value; a profound and important idea which appears so simple to us now that we ignore its true merit, but its very simplicity, the great ease which it has lent to all computations, puts our arithmetic in the first rank of useful inventions, and we shall appreciate the grandeur of this achievement when we remember that it escaped the genius of Archimedes and Apollonius, two of the greatest minds produced by antiquity."

Tobias Dantzig, the father of George Dantzig, had this to say in Number:

"This long period of nearly five thousand years saw the rise and fall of many a civilization, each leaving behind it a heritage of literature, art, philosophy, and religion. But what was the net achievement in the field of reckoning, the earliest art practiced by man? An inflexible numeration so crude as to make progress well nigh impossible, and a calculating device so limited in scope that even elementary calculations called for the services of an expert [...] Man used these devices for thousands of years without contributing a single important idea to the system [...] Even when compared with the slow growth of ideas during the dark ages, the history of reckoning presents a peculiar picture of desolate stagnation. When viewed in this light, the achievements of the unknown Hindu, who some time in the first centuries of our era discovered the principle of position, assumes the importance of a world event."