US Conspiracy to Destablize Pakistan?

Correct me If I am wrong


But Urdu started getting Patronage only after EIC established Fort William at Calcuta after 1757 , and made the learning on One Local language a pre-condition for employment in EIC .

urdu closer to Official persian , yet common enough to be understood by locals as well , became favourtie.

Re: # 564
Exactly...
The source of Urdu is somewhere else and even the script. In India, we wear Coat, Tie, Suit etc...That is not Indian dress. I am not xenophobic. But claming some foreign stuff as part of our own culture is different.

Re: # 563
Ramcharitmanas is not basic literature. Is is local composure based on Ramayana. There are thousands of such literature.
Abhigyan Sakuntalam has inspired so many other authors.That is the greatness of these creations.

Sanskrit was not supposed to be for common purpose dialect. It is mother of all Indian languages ( except Urdu). Each Indian language is inter related and that is Sanskrit.
More people from India travel to Mecca than Kalighat. Dies that make Mecca as part of India?

Urdu is linguistically different from Indian languages, I have specified earlier(script,grammer, phonetics, alphabet)( Oriya, Ahamiya, Bengali etc...).

nkg:

If Urdu belongs to any country, it belongs to India. It is in India that this language was developed, regardless of it drawing upon Arabic, Farsi and Turki for a substantial part of its vocabulary; it is here that its literature, poetry, fiction were developed; it is here that it is still spoken by the largest number of people, especially if you consider Urdu and Hindi to be essentially the same, as I do.

Nkg,

And what about Tulsidas-Ramcharitmanas. More people have read Ramcharitmanas and Meera's bhajans than read Abhigyan Shakuntalam.

As far as Urdu is considered, it is completely mutually intelligible with Hindi. More Indians speak and understand Urdu than Sanskrit or Ahamiya. But I presume you wud not count Indian Muslims as Indians, wud you?

Regards

Re: # 561
I am looking greatness...
Like- Vyasdev-Mahabharata
Valmiki-Ramayana
Kalidasa- Kumarsambhaba, Abhigyan Sakuntalam...

Which has inspired so many other languages....
If knowledge Farsi/Arabic/Urdoo people qualifies Indianness, then I beg to pardon, then you will find large number of them in India. Ask the modern poets/writers in your state. Whether they know it?

As per my knowledge Sanskrit/Prakrit is mother of all Indian languages.

I have already provided with example of - R N Tagore...who bloomed during British period.

Urdu is definitely structurally different than Indian Language. Large number of people in India can speak and write in English. That does not qualify English as Indian Language...Can you please list the similarities of Urdu/Farsi with Indian language (Bengali, Gujrati, Oriya etc...)?
Mumbai movie is definitely very popular. Qualatively, it is very poor and collective contribution of Bengali, Tamil, Malayalam etc. commercial movies...or poor copies of Hollywood movies. Now a days these people copy european movies also...

Nkg,

(Urdo and Persian is not Indian Language.)

Tulsidas, Surdas, Meerabai, Kabir, Abdul-rahim-Khani-Khanan, Bihari, Raskhan and Malik Mohhammad Jayasi all wrote in Hindi and to the best of my knowledge Hindi is very much an Indian language.

Back to Urdu. Urdu is very much an Indian language (although Farsi not so), it is the mother tongue of millions of Indians, lots of literary stuff has been written in it including by Hindus. Among many North Indians and Punjabi Hindus and Sikhs too for long, Urdu was considered the language that respectable folk spoke and wrote in. Much of its vocabulary and grammar is shared with Hindi and the language is completely intelligible to Hindi speakers.

And if it still ain't Indian, all of Bollywood music (our so-called soft power) ain't Indian either. So you decide!!!

(What are the great creation of these poets?)

If you dont know these poets or their creation, then you dont know much about India's history or culture. And if you dont know about India's heritage there is no point in blaming others for destroying our culture.

Regards

Re: # 558
Urdo and Persian is not Indian Language. Does it matches with any of our regional languages? Structurally these 2 are altogether different than Indian languages ( Bengali, Marathi, Gujrati, Oriya, Ahamiya, Punjabi, Telegu, Kannada etc...).
What are the great creation of these poets?

Re: # 557
EIC rule was definitely very bad period for India ( Upto 1856). But, the situation improved after British Govt. taken over the reign. Economically, EIC and British people weakened us. But, the way India was plunging during moslem period, it would have created little difference there. I can see qualitative jump in Education, Health and other sectors with the arrival of British in Bengal.

Nkg,

#556,

(Please provide evidence of nice poetry during Mughals etc...)

Lots of Urdu, Persian poetry in Muslims era like Amir Khusro etc. But since u dont consider Muslim culture as culture I will quote a few Hindu names and a few Muslims who wrote about Hindu themes as well.

Tulsidas, Surdas, Meerabai, Kabir, Abdul-rahim-Khani-Khanan, Bihari, Raskhan, Malik Mohhammad Jayasi

Regards

nkg #: ...the discussion of whether british were beneficial to india or harmful is a long one......i used to think they were beneficial, but the more, "factual" history of south asia i read, the more my opinion has changed......

....i think the british were harmful to the areas constituting present-day india, but they were beneficial to the areas constituting pakistan.....

..they were, definitely, disastrous to the areas constituting bangladesh; considering the fact that they starved a huge portion of the bengali population to death; not to mention the fact that when the british invaded, bengal was one of the wealthiest places in asia, if not the world......when the british left, and till today, it is one of the poorest areas in the world....

one thing people need to keep in mind is that south asia was only ruled by the british for the last 90 years......prior to that, it was ruled by a corporation, listed in england.....the east india company......this would be the equivalent of general electric or microsoft taking over and colonizing a country.....this company had three armies of its own, in india, with over 100,000 soldiers in each.....it had its own ceo in england!!......

and corporations only have interest in one thing: profit....they will exploit their labor as much as they can, if there are no laws in place......the famines in bengal are equivalent to genocides.....i am always surprised they get so little mention in the history of the world.....and there is so little literature on them, when, in fact, there is so much on the holocaust, and now the armenian genocide......

why was british rule beneficial for the areas, currently, in Pakistan....primarily because there would have been no Pakistan, had the british army not conquered various parts of afghanistan, and included it into India.......moreover, this part of the world was actually quite backwards and did gain from the british infrastructure etc.....punjab had an extremely modern army, under ranjit singh, but was quite poorly administrated.......

.....to get an understanding of the advancement of south asia, one needs to consider the following: when the british invaded, south asia was a major contributor to the world's economy.......when they left, it was in shambles economically......when the british invaded, they fought some of their toughest battles, anywhere in the world, agaisnt south asian militaries - marthas, haider ali, tipu sultan, sikh army in punjab and even the 1857 battles........when they left, south asia had no independently run military with a local leadership.......

Re: # 553
Please provide evidence of nice poetry during Mughals etc...
Entire cow-belt (UP, Bihar etc...) is now devoid of any culture which roots to that period (after 12th century).
Any such instituion in Northern India from that period?
Post Vedic era, we have Kalidasa, Banabhatta etc...

Forgot to correct nkg on Kerala - Kerala was never ruled but fully occupied for 1000 continuous years by Islamic rules. Cochin being a way stop for spices from Moluccas, Zamorin found it useful to make money ~ 15% tax on spices from Moluccas eventually which went to Gulf, further enroute to EU. Arab horses were a frequent form of payment and the Chera rules made a fast buck of flicking cash off neighbourhood Pallavas, Cholas selling the arab horses. (This is based on inscriptions as well- please head to Jewtown , Cochin and so some travel - could do the body and mind good)

Forgot to correct nkg on Kerala - Kerala was never ruled but fully occupied for 1000 continuous years by Islamic rules. Cochin being a way stop for spices from Moluccas, Zamorin found it useful to make money ~ 15% tax on spices from Moluccas eventually which went to Gulf, further enroute to EU. Arab horses were a frequent form of payment and the Chera rules made a fast buck of flicking cash off neighbourhood Pallavas, Cholas selling the arab horses. (This is based on inscriptions as well- please head to Jewtown , Cochin and so some travel - could do the body and mind good)

Discussions such as the one by nkg # 543 are quite useless because they ignore a fundamental fact that History has to be viewed from a lens of multiple influences and epochs. If you just take Literature , for example, Vedic ages produced outstanding litertaure followed by outstanding poetry by early Sultanate (influenced by local colour). Birth of regional languages was in 11-13th centuries and until then, the mergeing of languages, Farisee, local Sanskrit (spoken now only by the creamy top layer of Brahmins) and the language of the masses - Prakrit, Pali, Magadhi....All of the languages produced outstanding poetry, supported by Lodhis and certainly later by Mughals - Akbar, and how cna you forget the last Mughal? Libraries at Damashk, Cairo, Tunis, Elazek, East Kurish regions....speak of an abiding love for written word by followers of Islam.

Ultimately, love for the Word is an universal one and denying it or having it ascribed to one caste/reloigion/country is incorrect.

Re: # 549
Please ignore these articles from Hindu or so called secular historians. The local inscriptions and folk tale gives you the proper insight of it. Go to Mysore and learn from local people (Kannadigas).
Indian media tries to prove Mughals were good and British people were bad. How come the UP, Northern MP, Bihar has suddenly stopped producing poets, scientists, mathematicians after arrival of moslems? Nobody will try to answer these questions.
How come there are no large tample/mutt in UP, Bihar and North MP, where as there are large number of such institutions in South MP, AP, Karnataka, TN, Orissa?

Re: # 543
You on the other hand want to discount all of that because you i) want to tell us that British colonization was what "developed" India, when it ruined it totally ii) are an anti-Muslim bigot. Neither i) nor ii) qualifies as any kind of scholarship, it qualifies as ignorance and you with your factless BS are one of the biggest ignoramuses on this site.

Ans:- Arrival of British has infused fund and skill in the following areas
1. Education - They have established medical,engineering colleges and universities. Within a span of 90 years (1857-1947), they have created nice educational infrastructure, which is still the base of India's education system. I am not seeing anything such created by moslems.
In fact, the education system was destroyed by islamic invaders. The literature was one of the areas, which revived after British arrival. They have promoted eductaion and science. During British period, we have got luminaries like R N Tagore, Bankim Chatterjee,Sir M V, C V Raman, S N Bose ( boson particle named after him), J C Bose....
Please provide such examples regarding moslems...
2. Public Works Department- Construction of Roadways and Railways. Creation of new cities. I have evidence of moslems destroying cities ( Hampi...) and renaming existing cities with some Urdu/Arabic name (Karnavati-Ahemadabad,Karnasubarna-Murshidabad, Vijayanagar/Golkanda-Hyderabad etc...). Destroying temple and looting the wealth (Kashi, Mathura, Somnath). Even Thirupati, the most revered temple in India was shifted to the top of a hill in a cluster of 7 hills, to protect it from the barbaric moslems.
I have no evidence of such barbarism committed by British rulers. Please provide evidence...

3. Defence - Entire defence industry in India has its root to British period.

With British people, India was introduced to the European Renaissance (Industry, Art, Literature...). Afghanistan is the perfect example of how islam can be destructive.

Rocket:-
http://inventors.about.com/od/rstartinventions/a/Rocke ts.htm

Please talk with example and evidence...

Masadi sahib,

(If someone claims "way back" ancestory from Iraq which matters not because in the middle is all local stuff, that does not mean he is in someway "ashamed" of local ethnicity. )

I am not accusing you of being ashamed of being local and hence inventing Iraqi ancestry. You are quite a learned man and from your own post understand quite fair, so you are certainly not telling tales. But if millions and millions of ordinary Pakis start inventing foreign ancestors then there is something wrong.

(Majumdar you are confused between colonized lands and white "settler" area.)

No, I am not. And as you have rightly pointed out settler colonialism was achieved by extreme cruelty (wholescale genocide) and I have pointed out as much to NKG.

Regards

It is now recognised by Indian scientists who have worked on the subject that Tipu Sultan's Mysore kingdom was the first to apply scientific principles to test and perfect rocket and missile technology. The Tiger of Mysore had 27 brigades or Kushoons and thus Tipu's army was the first to have a rocket brigade in modern times. These rockets were extensively used in 1792 and were the cause of the British setback. In fact, some of the rockets fired by Tipu's men are preserved in the Artillery Museum at Woolwich in London. Tipu's rockets had a range of nearly 2 km.

http://www.hindu.com/2006/07/22/stories/2006072203542200.htm

http://idv.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/18/1/61

#545 Your question about libraries "http://www.urducouncil.nic.in/urdu_wrld/o_kha/Historical%20Overview.htm&am p;am p;am p;qu ot;

If you are trying to prove from your contrived "sincere" bs that "Muslims" of the Middle Ages were anti-learning then you need to read your history more closely, and the libraries of the Maghreb that rivalled and excelled any libraries around the globe at the time, not to mention were it not for the "open minded" transmission by Arab and Muslim scientists the European rennaissance would never have become a reality in the progression of knowledge.

#546- give it up, the use of rockets successfully in the battlefield first occurred in India and it totally dessimated the British and was much advanced than anything they could muster. These are historical facts, and bigotry cannot counter them.

Re: # 543
Rocket and solid propellent was invented in China.
Tipu and all were foot soldiers of Mysore Kingdom (Wodeyars). Due to internal turmoil in the royal family, they had taken control of the Kingdom and wreked havoc on Iyengars. British people kicked these ruffians and re-instated the King. Please read the history of Mysore kingdom.

Did any of the mughal kings build a single
library? May be sultanates did? How about
Ghori or Gazanavi or Talpurs or Soomros?
Or numerous southern Shahis or Qasims?
I have not heard or read, so I am asking.
As it is I do not know much.

I am being censored by CHOWK STAFF. My ilogs the newest and latest being posted do not show up on the front page. Nobody knows of them and nobody can read them. This is a very stupid way of secretly trying to censor someone. I demand that this BS be fixed.

#541 you are an ignoramus you need to read the history of the British wars with Haider ali and Tipu, first time rockets were ever used on the battlefield and the British were totally outclassed and out tech-ed by solid fuel rockets. You on the other hand want to discount all of that because you i) want to tell us that British colonization was what "developed" India, when it ruined it totally ii) are an anti-Muslim bigot. Neither i) nor ii) qualifies as any kind of scholarship, it qualifies as ignorance and you with your factless BS are one of the biggest ignoramuses on this site.

#540 a joke devoid of any substance. India at the heels of the British colonialism would never be at the front viz a viz other nations had the Mughals done anything to stop the progress. In fact the British found it relatively easy to colonize the land because it was so decentralized, autonomous and quite liberal...

The Chowk staff "dogs" are preventing me from having my ilogs display on the front page, they are immediately (instantly after posting)removed from display. This is quite outrageous

Re: # 537
Rocket technology?
These are all Chinese stuff. Most of the stuff, India use today is of British origin...
Miliraty H/W- What kind of military H/W?

Re: # 537
There was almost 0 value addition during Mughal period. What new mughals have added in textile technology? Some form of stiching etc...Indian textile industry was matured long before islamic invastion. Textile was one of the major exports from India even before Christ. India has learned quite a couple of skills from China. What was the source of technology, which mughals have contributed?
Regarding losses-
Entire Ayrveda (Medical Science) was stopped further progress and even large amount of knowledge was lost. Some very authentic Ayurvedic methods are still available in Kerala and Pune (Where Shivaji was able to protect from islamic barbarians). Kerala was never ruled by muslim rulers.
It repeats for most of the fields ( Literature, Mathematics, Astronomy...).

Arjun, learn how to read (my supposed ancestors, and the tale that goes with that, does not refer to "all Arabs") and don't put words in my mouth. I have totally f'd up your (and your friend's) arguments (or lack thereof) in trying to compare Arab conquest with European colonialism, every time you're beaten back you come up with greater than before absurdity. Give it up fool.

#534 Posted by masadi on January 24, 2008 6:59:27 pm


No, they came as immigrants.


the arabs were "immigrants" who came to india, presumably, on tourist visas..

right....

That FACT is proven by India being one of the richest most prosperous and technologically and industrially uptodate area at the heels of British colonization- refer to the textile industry as well as military hardware like rocket technology- and after British colonization being a society of railroad squatters and impoverished people who had no sense of self worth and were easily manipulated to butcher each other

In #534 read "relatively benign kind as that of India" by the Mugals, the colonization of India by the British sucked the blood out of the country and was not benign...just a clarification.

Re: # 497
That is your perception. Muslims in India try to glorify Mughal period. Even ICHR is dominated by those people and we read distorted history. But , when comes to quantify the gains, they fails to justify with evidence. I am no expert of Middle east. But for Afghanistan, Pakistan, India and Bangladesh, islamic period started the doom. And the trend continues.

arjun writes "your ancestors came from iraq as occupiers"

No, they came as immigrants. I don't support any occupation be it of the relatively benign kind as that of India or the barbaric kind as the European occupation of North America. You on the other hand use every excuse in the book to soothe your bigotry against Islam, even though you don't have brains enough to counter my arguments in the context of the baseless comparison of Arab conquest viz a viz US/European colonization and neo-imperialism...

#523 Posted by masadi on January 24, 2008 2:52:39 pm

masadi...your ancestors came from iraq as occupiers..of coruse, you think all islamic occupation was good...it's only non-muslims occupying muslim land that is bad....

#524 Posted by HP on January 24, 2008 3:03:18 pm


who went to some ghati college in Mumbai!


yup..at our ghati college in bombay, they didn't teach us network forensics tricks...like how to prove asia times as actually a front group for an intelligence agency...you know..the way you proved it...

Re: # 530

Mohar:

China's biggest challenge is what I mentioned in Deng Xiao Ping's quote. Assimilation of entire China.

India and China have co-existed for 5,000 years, what is 50 years in the life time. I was forunate to meet with Chairman of Tatung in Taipei. His collection on India of Chinese writings, painting etc. from South China was amazing. Todate, if you start looking, travelouges of Chinese are the finest testimonials anyone can write.

India and China must not compete and find to collaborate to create markets of 40% of the world's population. This will ensure no one ever domoniate the world and colonize it.

Re: # 515 zee

I have heard that from sinophiles "china thinks 50 years ahead"... if that were true, they wouldn't have gone for communism in the first place, would they? They would have known that it ain't going to work...

And let's see - they started "Great leap forward" - that killed about 20 million people, within a space of 10 years... they should have figure that one out, before leaping into that unimaginable disaster... I mean 20 million died of starvation, no less...

And if that wasn't enough - 10 years later,they started "cultural revolution"... another disaster...

Don't get me wrong - their recent achievement is very impressive... but let's not go overboard here... there are whole lot troubles lurking under the surface in that country...

HP Mian:

"...har aik muskarahat muskan nahi hoti nafrat ho ya mohabbat aasan nahi hoti...."

Your hatred truly has deep roots. Get it out, it is never too late.

Aapki samajah ke bahar hai. Lagta hai Sindh ki Ghati se bhage hain. Nafrat hi nafrat rah gayi saath mein.

heheheh... see how the Harvard business School Graduate and has an email addy to prove, writes...

Re: # 524

HP Mian:

Kitne Mother Burners aur Ganesh mutants aapko dehshad detein hain?

App "Sindh ki Ghati" ke Mother Burners aur Ganesh mutants se tou bhage hue hain. Mumbai ki Ghati ki sooch sooch kar neend haram kar rahe hain.

Your hatred is genetic. Still try to get rid of your hatred. Then you may have brain left to go beyond and pico, nano and micro analysis.

Then again Mother Burners and Ganesh mutants get you.

Re: # 521

Massaddi Mian:

Aaj mere ko gussa nahin aa raha hai. Aap se angrezie seekh leinge.

#520 Posted by masadi
“except that arjun is equal in bigotry but comparatively smarter than anil-“

hun…did you not know that the guy is a Harvard business School Graduate and has an email addy to prove that?(you can send him an email, he will respond to that. hehehe)

Isn’t that a disgrace that the HBS Graduate is not smarter than arjun, who went to some ghati college in Mumbai!

majumdar writes "And of course in many countries like Pakistan locals are ashamed of admitting that they are of local descent and start inventing mythical ancestors (from Iraq for eg)."

You are clearly turning out to be a similar idiot like arjun and anil. When it has been clearly explained to you that descent does not matter in Islam but matters totally in Hinudism and its caste ridden system, you repeat this BS. If someone claims "way back" ancestory from Iraq which matters not because in the middle is all local stuff, that does not mean he is in someway "ashamed" of local ethnicity. That is the Hindu mindset where they accepted the definition given to their ethnicity by the white man, Muslims did not

Re: # 514

Zeemax sahib:

Like you, I also have very high regard for the Chinese. As I recall from BiGE - Big Government & Economies class on China. Chinese model has been based on restricted movement of Labor, decentralized taxattion - revenue / bribes etc. collected stayed where the development was concentrated. This was discussed as the biggest challenge for China would be, Deng Xiao Ping was quoted that China will have till 2020 to fix this. Inland farmers are routinely paid IOUs for their crops. Apparently, in the past history of China, some emporor tried to consolidate and failed.

One thing for sure, Chinese FDI is hard to track. It is comingled with short term capital. Much like a game of ponzie, by the Global Chinese from Taiwan, Hong Kong, Thailand, Indonesia, Malayesia and Singapore.

If you otherwise look the amount of FDI in China and its affect, is much inferior to the FDI in India. Why is it so? My answer is that the same FDI is counted manytimes over. China is more productive and efficient than India. There is simply no denial that China has almost arrived. It has a clout to create waves in the world.

Re: # 520

Massaddi Mian:

Apka dimaag lajawaab hai. Again zero content.

In #519 read anil writes as "arjun writes"- though there is very little difference between the two, except that arjun is equal in bigotry but comparatively smarter than anil- he can also write half way decent English unlike anil.

anil writes "get their undies in a knot when anyone mentioned the crusades.."

Because the present-day crusaders use the similar bs and terminology when they rape Muslim lands today...

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Re: # 509

Dear bubba

I am not sure how u came to that conclusion but rest assured that certainly is not the case. Arabs/Muslims are guilty of the same crime but u cannot equate them with the European/Christian imperialism.

anil,

Mohar had raised a point that if the Chinese do that, it will not be good for their people because ther've been 80,000 riots over there. I don't know if that's true since I haven't heard of a single one. The last I heard was in Tianamen Square in 1988 when they actually ran tanks over students.

I have seen bodies lying in the streets of Beijing from traffic accidents with no one to pick them up. Ultimately they're swept to the sides like dogs and cats so traffic can pass.

It is not easy to know the Chinese mindset.

I have been accused of being cryptic, but I really don't know how to explain.

Regards.

... of-course it depends on how they decide to go about it. The Chinese think 50 years ahead at the minimum.

Re: # 513

Zeemax sahib:

So had EU, so had Japan, and wait for a couple of jumbos. These elephants may not longer be ignored.

#502 Posted by mohar11,

China has positioned itself to do anything it wants. Pull, or push, whatever.

tahmed writes "An educated middle class is the true nation-building force in society. "

This is one of the most oft repeated banal nonsense that is mainstream because the "middle class" as soldiers and buffers employed by the elite keep the working class (of which the Middle Class is a part though they feel themselves superior) from demanding their rights. Of all the dependant classes, the middle class is most vested in mainating the status quo, and thus enhancing the power of the elite, they are the anti-democratic forces everywhere. Therefore when the elite in their myopia and greed reduce the size of the middle class by making the few distinctions between them and the working class blurry is when hope arises for the system to change. Education by itself is not a panacea, we don't need the "education"- corporate sponsored that helps the slaves adjust to their slavery, the education that is needed is the one that helps you transcend the system and challenge it, the kind of education that Hamid says has "no value".

And finally this BS about comparing US hegemony around the globe today and its destructive effects to Arab conquests of the past, long dead and gone, are mere bigotry soothing and distraction for the purpose of muddying what affects us today...Except for intellectual exercise, it is of no real concern to any of us in today's world what Arab conquerors did, not only does it not in any way justify what the US is doing today around the globe, it does not help in understanding the changed political and global economic relationships of today...

Majumdar you are confused between colonized lands and white "settler" area. The settler areas like North America, Australia etc were considered an extension of the homeland, the economic relationship and autonomy given to the settlers was also qualitatively different, and the indigeneous folk in almost all of these settler areas were wiped out wholesale. This did not happen in colonized areas because the purpose of colonization was not to establish them as white settler areas but mainly for control thorugh a small elite for markets and economic exploitation. In no post have I defended Arab conquests of other lands for whatever reason but comparing Arab conquests that were qualitatively different in the autonomy granted, in the non-exclusive and different economic system, and in the lack of wholesale genocide to the butchery of the Europeans is marked nonsense...All the lands colonized by the Europeans are in shambles except for the settler areas that were established as an extension of the homeland, compared to this the Arab conquered areas were markedly better or equally developed compared to their homeland or areas under the control of the then white cave grovellers...

Re: # 497 Posted by rf786 on January 24, 2008 2:36:21 am

Arif Sahib, for two centuries or more the arabs destroyed all the intellectual base of the conquered lands should be ignored and forgotten because then afterwards the ruling elite (non-arabs in most cases) changed their style and started contributing to the societies. Is that what the thesis of your argument is?

re: tahmed32

The inspiration, in a real and practical sense, if there was one, behind the United States Declaration of Independence and its' constitution were the acts of the English Parliament passed to limit the monarchy's power vis-a-vis the parliament.

Specifically; The Act of Habeus Corpus; the Petition of Rights; The Grand Remonstrance; the Act of Settlement; the Act of Supremacy and others, which clearly established and gave legislative power to parliament over the monarchy, including the power of taxation. These laws, also acted as the precedents upon which the colonial legistures of the thirteen American colonies operated, which later gave way to the arguments of state versus federal rights, once the British started to by-pass the colonial legislatures and started to govern the colonies by a parliamentary fiat.

The American distrust of a strong monarchy-federal government was based on their experiences under the British rule; a British parliament dominated by Lord North, the prime minister at the time, who wanted to use the colonies as markets for Britain's growing mercantalist empire.

Ciao

Re: tahmed32 # 505

I was not defending the Aztecs. I agree, the Aztecs were no boy scouts either, but I was merely replying to nkg's rather blanket admiration of the Europeans in his post # 487.

As to the Puritans, please keep in mind that the Puritans were the more exterme members of the protestants in England and were rabidly anti-Catholic and they were basically expelled from England by James I, when he succeded Elizabeth I as the king of England in 1601. The Puritans, were no angels either and their acts, as seen in the Salem Witch trials, were not enlightened but rather were regressive and barbaric. The Mayflower Compact and John Winthrophe's wish to create the "city on the hill" were religiously motivated and the Mayflower Compact did not offer the gurantees normally associated with constitutional rights and thus, should not be identified as one.

The American Declaration of Independence was more a result of the ideals of the Enlightenment and the American constitution was more inspired by the works of a Frenchman named Montesquieu (sp?) and his book; "The Spirit of Laws", which basically argued for a seperation of powers between the seperate branches of government.

The rest of your post on Pakistan is well reasoned and I agree, with its conclusions and hopes for Pakistan' future.

Ciao

Re: # 505

tahmed32

You give too much credit to the puritans, there main purpose was too bring religion to the savages and gold t their king. People who brought constitution were secularists and some would even claim atheists.

Pakistan's problem is like u rightfully said dictatorship that exploits masses through corruption and religion. What Pakistan needs is less religion and more democratic principles practiced by ALL, not just the fast escaping middle classes.

ferozk #501 What you say is quite true about spanish and portugese rule in Latin America. Mexico City is built on the ruins of Tenochtitlan, the capital of the Aztecs. With material from the largest Aztec temple used to build a church. But then, the Aztecs were no saints either - they too were a primitive society of kingships and priests, and their temples were drenched with the blood of countless victims of human sacrifice.

While Latin american nations have been built on this culture of lust for gold and wealth by ignorant plunderers and soldiers, the puritans who came to north america were among the best educated in europe. They came not to enrich themselves but to escape oppression by the King and Church of England. Even before landing in north america, they had formed the Mayflower Compact - in other words a Constitution!! In this respect, 400 years ago those people understood the importance of the rule of law better than the lawless scoundrel Musharraf and his followers do even today. These people were followed by other educated men, notably William Penn who was an idealist and introduced a democratic constitution that laid the ground for the US Constitution 150 years later.

This difference (dictatorship, and jehalyat of the spanish in Latin America vs. the push for democracy and education in North America) has led to the vast gap between these two sub-continents of the new world. Latin American "Hacienda economies" (i.e. feudal landholdings) vs the US capitalist economy stood Marx on its head by having the economy reflect the political structure of dictatorship vs democracy.

There are clearly lessons here for Pakistanis as well - An educated middle class is the true nation-building force in society. Military dictators and priests are guaranteed to keep a society from moving forward. Over the past 60 years, India has taken the US route (due to educated middle class types like Nehru who understood the importance of the constitution), while Pakistan has been pushed the Latin American route. Our good fortune is the brave and ever-stronger middle class of Pakistan whose sacrifices in 2007 could very well mark the time Pakistan switched from the South American track to the US track.

it's like saying - if all pakis just refuse to drive their cabs then we all will be in trouble ... true, but what are the chances pakis would ever do that?... even the most Mo-crazy paki knows he has to eat first...

it's the same with chinese... they are making a living by being the factory to the world, their livelihood is at stake here...

US conspiracy to keep allah's chosen muslims(allah's jews) down!!

Pakistan at 92nd position in GCI


By Khaleeq Kiani


DAVOS, Jan 23: Pakistan occupies 92nd position among 131 countries in the global competitiveness index (GCI) while India ranked 48th.

According to the Global Competitiveness Report 2007-08, released at the start of three-day World Economic Forum (WEF) here on Wednesday, the US tops the GCI index with a score of 5.67, followed by Switzerland (5.62).

Denmark, Sweden, Germany, Finland, Singapore, Japan, UK and the Netherlands are among the top 10 countries in that order.

Malaysia occupies 21st position with a score of 5.10 while Kuwait, Qatar, Tunisia and Saudi Arabia occupied rankings of 30, 31, 32 and 35, respectively.

India stands at 48th position with a score of 4.33 while Pakistan’s 92nd position is with a score of 3.77 while Bangladesh is ranked at 107 with 3.55 marks.

In the 2006-07 index with 122 countries, Pakistan was on the 83rd position, and this year it has shown a decline of ten positions. It not only gave way to other competitors, the country also lost scores. Its score last year was 3.82 points.

In the sub-index of basic facilities, Pakistan is ranked at 98. While its infrastructure and institutions stand at 72 and 81 positions, Pakistan’s macroeconomic stability and health and basic education are ranked at 101 and 115th positions.

Pakistan is ranked at 81st position in efficiency enhancing factors by securing 28 positions in market size and 116 in education and training.

Last year, India had occupied 42nd position among 122 countries and it had secured 4.47 scores in the GCI.The US has succeeded in maintaining its first position since last year. China that stood at 35th position last year has improved its ranking by one step to 34, also improving its scores from 4.55 to 4.57 this year.

The series of Global Competitiveness Report evolved over the last three decades offers invaluable insight into policies, institutions and factors driving productivity, enabling sustained economic growth and long-term prosperity.

Report provides users with a comprehensive data on a broad array of competitiveness indicators for a large number of industrialised and developing economies.

This year’s edition features record 131 economies, accounting for more than 98 per cent of the world’s GDP.

The Global Competitiveness Report includes the World Economic Forum’s Global Competitiveness Index, developed by Prof Xavier Sala-i-Martin, at Columbia University; the Business Competitiveness Index, developed by Prof Michael E. Porter, Director of the Institute for Strategy and Competitiveness at Harvard Business School as well as detailed profiles for each of the 131 economies covered and data tables displaying relative rankings for more than 100 variables.

zee

You keep talking aabout "if china does this or that"...why would china do all that you are suggesting?... why would it stop selling stuff? its own survival depends on its trade to US and europe...

As an emerging economy, china is in a more precarious situation politically and economically then the better established countries in N. America and Europe.... if the economy goes south in china- there is no telling what's going to happen there... there were 80,000 riots last year even when times are good... China is in no position to "take away the ladder" or threaten US with economic damage... they will suffer much more, if they do that...

Re: nkg # 487

Hernan Cortes was a plunder and a looter, whose expedition to South America was self-financed, mostly, in search for personal glory. The much touted Age of Exploration's motto was "God, Gold, Glory" and in this, God was an after thought. The so-called "explorers" were opportunists, whose idea of exploration was a means to enrich themselves and they caused more harm to the cultures they came into contact with than they benefitted them.

Pizzaro practiced genocide and between the introduction of European diseases (small-pox, measles and common cold), alcohol and mass murder, the explorers from Spain annihilated entire communities of Aztecs and Mayans. The Spanish rule of their South American and Caribbean possesions was marked by a rule of racial prejudice, religious intolerance and social apartheid.

The explorers from Portugal were no different. The struggle for the control of the spice trade, which brought the Portugese to India and then towards the Far East, was marked by acts of political terror, such as collective punishment for Muslim and Hindu traders, who did not trade with them. The Portugese committed acts against the local populations that Nazi doctors at Auschwitz would have balked at from doing!

The Portugese, under Prince Henry the Navigator went to Africa in search of gold, but they did not find gold and instead they brought a few captured Africans back to Lisbon and sold them. The sale was so profitable, that they would start trading in "black gold" and in the process, institutionalized slavery and made Lisbon the center of European slave trade.

The Portugese and the Dutch provided weapons to the Japanese warlords, which fuelled the Japanese civil war in the late 1500s and early 1600s, because they were fighting each other over the control of the spice trade and were using the Japanese to fight their proxy wars; the Japanese died and the European profited. The introduction of European weaponary into Japan, increased the lethality of Japanese civil wars to such an extent that when Tokoguwa established his shogunate in the 1600s, he killed all the Europeans in Japan in order to secure the peace.

Francis Drake was a thief and pirate, who stole gold from Spanish main and gave it to Elizabeth, and which paid for England's Golden Age. The stolen Spanish gold was sold in Amsterdam, and this not only devauled the price of gold in Europe, but caused a massive inflation in Spain and the first economic recession in Europe.

As to the European educational institutions; they were only for the Europeans. European educational institutions in Africa, for example, were exclusively for Europeans and so were the European hospitals and the roads build by the Europeans were not open for the Africans to travel upon and the best agricultural lands were taken from the Africans and converted into tea and coffee plantations to feed the needs of the commerical capitalism in Europe.

Historic truths should not be gloried and though, I am against the ideas of politically correct history; the reality is that the European contact with the outside world was a devasting experience for the non-European world. The Congress of Berlin, in 1878, called the "scramble for Africa" drew the lines on the map of Africa in the name of colonization, which tore asunder African communites and were/are responsible for the present day problems in Africa.

The peace treaty of Versailles in 1919, based on the understanding of the Skyes-Picot pact, established the present-day Middle East and what was settled between two bureaucrats in a Cairo hotel room in 1916, would be responsible for the killing of millions not yet born!

I have read my history, as you adviced, but I do not agree with you and your version of history. :)

Ciao

#498 Posted by zeemax on January 24, 2008 4:54:10 am


I was talking about was that this ladder can be pulled out from under them by China.


you're still dreaming of islamic abdul suckling the yellow teat and going on do defeat the great satan?

maybe you should ask the chinese why they're loaning money to the US to finance it's consumption...i doubt a single chinese will tell you it's out of love for the US or altruism...

stick to the basics...learn the difference between amaranth and amarnath...then pretend to be an expert...

#463 Posted by masadi on January 23, 2008 5:43:01 pm


If you are talking about the Arab conquests of the past, the world is much different qualitatively now- they could never approach doing to the globe what these barbarians are doing, the means of destruction, power and wealth at their command is vastly greater and the reach much further than anything the Arabs could muster, and leave "Muslim" out of it. If the "Muslims" had done to India


there goes masadi again...being the apologist for islamic colonialism....according to masadi, and presumably mills, some forms of colonialism are ok..in fact, they're even benefecial....

#492 Posted by ijaz_gul,

Cheap Chinese stuff increases their standard of living and savings.

But that's exactly my point. What if that cheap Chinese is stuff isn't cheap anymore, or not available at all? Will not US then be forced to go back to manufacturing low value-added stuff of its own instead of the very high-end stuff it now exports, and thus lower its standard of living? Or do without, say, DVD players?

In fact, China has become the factory of the world. Its cost advantage is said to be over 40% Vis a vis the cheapest competing nations like S. Korea and Taiwan, let alone Japan. It practically has a monopoly now on all consumer goods (both durable and non-durable except automobiles which is only a matter of time) which the typical middle income family uses across the world.

China's this very advantage in low-end markets has enabled the G7 countries to move up the value-addition ladder. What I was talking about was that this ladder can be pulled out from under them by China.

If China does that, it will only hurt its coastal belt special economic zones' economy which is a small fraction of the rest of China which is rigidly Communist, and nothing will change there - while G7 will have to retool part of its industry back to low-end.

Re: # 496

nkg

There is a term in behavioral finance called "recency bias" where investors perceive gains and losses according to the recent history. Big mistake. Same applies to other aspects of life, when u look at the present situation of third world countries inhabitated by Muslims or once ruled by them you have a dilapidated position reflective of current malaise. What is not remembered or forgotten are the good times or positive contributions made by that particular civilization. Had u access to a time machine and traveleld back in time when ottoman empire was at its peak, then they were the most benevolent, moderate and advanced society. There again, if you read Nernard Lewis it gives one a very good account of Muslim civilization contribution.

Re: # 495
I am not against Arabs. The degrade of humanity under the influence of Islam pains me (whether it is in Thailand, Indonesia, Afhganistan, Egypt, Pakistan, UP, Bihar ( Indian States), Bangladesh...). These places, with great history and doomed present deserves sympathy.

Re: # 481

nkg

Although not well regarded in the Muslim world but quite comprehensive is Bernard Lewis book on Muslim civilization "The Middle East". If you wish to understand the current myopic aversion with everything Arab/Muslim then read Edward Said excellent boo "Orientalism".

Re: # 483

Ma sahib

Another excellent book is by Paul kennedy, "Rise and fall of empires".

Regards

Arif

Re: # 490

May I also add, 'the Wonder that was India' and te fact that most of the knowledge was transplanted to Europe through Arab/Muslim traders and conquerors from the East.

Ans:
China and India exchanged knowledge/skill and have nice trade relation without attacking each other for thousands of years (1962 is the first instance and should be the last one).

Zeemax,
I would disagree with you.
USA has a very competetive domestic economy.Thats what caused the crash of 30's but no more.Gold Dollar Equation ensures it will not happen again because it prevents the economy from over heating. Cheap Chinese stuff increases their standard of living and savings.

Re: # 483

In addition, North Am, parts of South Am and Australia were regions were thinly populated and were suitable for settlement by goras (Europe was overpopulated) so there was an incentive plus it was easy to clean out the local people either by force or thru accident (disease). By contrast Asia and Africa were not really suitable for gora habitat and there were far too many locals to exterminate.


Ans: People always look for fortune and if possible then they settle there. Europeans have settled in North America and Australia without much involvement of British Royals. This is similar to people flocking to USA and settling there in last 40 years. If, after 40 years, most of the people in LA, USA become ethnically Indian, can we tell that as Indian invasion? I will differ here. How you are sure that you will survive in an alien land after exterminating locals? There are certain reason for maginalization of locals in Australia and America. But violence is not the only reason.
Coming back to the point; so, it is impossible for external invaders to totally subdue locals in India. Furthermore, to survive in India, you need the help of local people.
Regarding WWI and WWII, the fatal weapons were not in the hand of moslems. That is the reason statistically, europeans killed more people. If you provide the same technology of Israel to Iran ( Khoneini or some Imam of Mosque), you know what would have happened to Israel? What this Hamas,Hezbullah, LeT etc... are doing with limited technology and resource, is enough to prove islamic barbarism.

Re: # 486
Its not a question of ignoring the typos. The difference in both is that in Colonialism, local resources are exploited and very little spent on local human resource development.Its a form of slavery and countries even after getting independence remain tangled in tied trade etc.The develpoment theory is based on dependence.
In colonisation, an entire culture and race is transplanted as an extension of the mother country.The development theory is based on Develpoment.

#487,
May I also add, 'the Wonder that was India' and te fact that most of the knowledge was transplanted to Europe through Arab/Muslim traders and conquerors from the East.

#445 Posted by anil

That is why had debated Zeemax sahib, on his theory of destroying the U.S. economy by asking Chinese to inject inflation.

err .. Anil Saheb, this wasn't the theory at all. The theory I presented was that US was more dependant on China for its economy than the other way around.

Do correct the record!

Nkg,

(Have the native American able to provide Evidence of large scale destruction like we Indians?)

I will try to find sources, else you can always depend on Masadi sahib.

(They were mostly within Europe and adjacent areas. )

If Peru, Brazil and Argentina are "adjacent areas of Europe" I have nothing more to add.

(My basic point is European settlers has created excellent academic/industrial/social infrastructure wherever they have gone)

Here I agree with you.

(Egypt to Afghanistan. Places with great history, no current achievement. )

Again, I agree with you.

Regards

Re: # 483
Then you need to read some more history, read about the Age of Discovery, England, Portugal and Spain's maritime conquests etc. About the likes of Prince Henry the Navigator, Hernan Cortes, Pizarro, Francis Drake and the rest of the gang

Ans:- They were mostly within Europe and adjacent areas.

Dupleix and Vasco Da Gama...

Ans: Sorry. That is the reason, they have not succeded.

Re: # 484
Ignore the typos...

Re: # 478
Injuns were so incomepent....
Ans:
I will beg to differ little bit here.
Have the native American able to provide Evidence of large scale destruction like we Indians?
Konkan Region has large number of Temples destroyed by Portugese. Kashi, Mathura, Somnath, Hampi etc...has historical evidence of islamic barbarism. In Murshidabad/Maldah there is one mosque (I have forgot the name), in the inner wall of which,the partially destroyed face of Lakshmi and Ganesha is still there. Local people believe that, it was actually a temple.I am not aware of such destruction by European settlers in America? Please enlighten me.
I have seen one TV program, which shown, how muslims in Egypt, has destructed the surface of Pyramid (polished stone) to build mosque. If possible, I will provide more information in this regard.
My basic point is European settlers has created excellent academic/industrial/social infrastructure wherever they have gone, where as the islamic invaders has created the total anarchy, whereever they have settled their root. Egypt to Afghanistan. Places with great history, no current achievement.

Re: # 476
Do you know the diffrenece between Colonialism and colonisation?

Arif bhai

#480

Very true. And for once even Masadi sahib will agree with you.

In addition, North Am, parts of South Am and Australia were regions were thinly populated and were suitable for settlement by goras (Europe was overpopulated) so there was an incentive plus it was easy to clean out the local people either by force or thru accident (disease). By contrast Asia and Africa were not really suitable for gora habitat and there were far too many locals to exterminate.

I wud strongly recommend a book called "Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond.

Nkg,

(From where Europeans will collect resource, if they need to backtrack? )

Why wud they need to backtrack if they are going to whup the locals anyway?

(As per my knowledge of Histroy, Navy was not extensively used by European Kingdoms for expansion beyond Europe and adjacent areas. )

Then you need to read some more history, read about the Age of Discovery, England, Portugal and Spain's maritime conquests etc. About the likes of Prince Henry the Navigator, Hernan Cortes, Pizarro, Francis Drake and the rest of the gang.

(It is people like Dupleix,Robert Clive, Vasco Da Gama etc..., who without any Govt. patronage helped to create colonies.)

Well when we speak about gora colonialism we are not really distinguishing between public sector and private sector conquests. And in any case both Dupleix and Vasco da Gama were both govt employees.

Regards

Re: # 478
Have ever British force invaded India, like Mughals?

Ans:I think, you know the history. British Govt. took over India from East India Company in 1857? They have not sent any soldier to invade India. East India company used to maintain small army for their own protection. Later that grew in number. East India Comany was not able to manage the army properly, so, after 1856 uprising, British Govt. took over from E I C. It was the circimstance, that made British rule over India.

Where does it say that invasion can happen only through land?

Ans:This is not documented, from common sense. You are sailing 1000s of miles to other land to fight with the locals, without a base there. From where Europeans will collect resource, if they need to backtrack? As per my knowledge of Histroy, Navy was not extensively used by European Kingdoms for expansion beyond Europe and adjacent areas. They were able to colonise large part of Asia and Africa, mostly due to administrative failure or weak society in those places.It was the fortune seekers and traders, which had created large european colony outside Europe. It is people like Dupleix,Robert Clive, Vasco Da Gama etc..., who without any Govt. patronage helped to create colonies.

Where does it say that invasion can happen only through land?

This is not documented, from common sense. You are sailing 1000s of miles to other land to fight with the locals, without a base there. From where Europeans will collect resource, if they need to backtrack? As per my knowledge of Histroy, Navy was not extensively used by European Kingdoms for expansion beyond Europe and adjacent areas. They were able to colonise large part of Asia and Africa, mostly due to administrative failure or weak society in those places.It was the fortune seekers and traders, which had created large european colony outside Europe. It is people like Dupleix,Robert Clive, Vasco Da Gama etc..., who without any Govt. patronage helped to create colonies.

Re: # 474

Maj sahib

With all due respect to our European folks, they actually have a unparrelled track record in extermination, genocidal wars or social, political, economic subjugation.

Some examples of their exterminations:

1. North America-indegenous Indian (red) population
2. South America-Mayan population
3. Australia-Abrogini's
4. Jews-WWII
5. Muslims of Chechnya by Stalin

These are the most obvious examples that history has documented, one reason for these races being completly marginalized or decimated was their small population numbers, where Europeans encountered large population bases they chose too rule by forced conversion or economic and military domination. Classic examples are the Asian and African continents that were divied amongst the seafaring European nations.

Probably the biggest loss to human race has been the cultural invasion and perversion. This has happened in all continents wherever the invading forces landed they have been the reason why cultural diversity was replaced with European/Christian culture.

Mohammadens can also be blamed for the same when they invaded and occupied foreign territories imposing their religious and social customs on local inhabitants. But, compared to the Europeans/Christians, Mozlems can never come close to their brutal decimation of different cultures and populations.

WWI and WWII started by Europeans/Christians caused death and destruction of 70MM and more, no other race can ever come close to those numbers in terms of brutality and more importantly no other race has the same capacity to inflict damage when compared to the giant European/Christian powers.

Re: # 478

Maj

Me think this nkg guy is either trying to pull a fast one Or, is mentally challenged.

Nkg,

Re: 477

I hope this post was not made to pull my leg. But if it wasnt here's m2c.

(In, those days, you can not transport large number of troups by sea route.)

But the Injuns were so incompetent that you didnt huge numbers, a few hundred well-trained and well-armed soldiers were enuff for the Injuns, as it is were the American Injuns.

(Most of the European colonies were established through sea route. That proves that, these areas were not invaded.)

Where does it say that invasion can happen only through land? I will be interested in the source.

(Have ever British force invaded India, like Mughals? )

So how did India end up becoming a British colony, quite curious to know?

Hoping for a prompt response.

Regards

Re: # 474
#472 and #476..
Mr. Majumdar, you seems to be Bengali...Please read "Anandamath" and analysis of
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1770
In, those days, you can not transport large number of troups by sea route. Most of the European colonies were established through sea route. That proves that, these areas were not invaded. Have ever British force invaded India, like Mughals?

Re: # 473
I have provided reason and references...Please argue with logic...If the Arab invaders have to settle in India, they need skill to survive here, which they did not have...This is fact...
What muslims have achieved in Egypt,Sudan, Iran etc... has failed in India. North Africa and part of Middle east has glorious past. After the advent of Islam, it has started declining and now the most notorious place on earth.
The present advanced society in entire North America is built by the European settlers. What is contribution of the native Americans in the current industrial and academic excellence in USA and Canada? India has lost a lot from islamic invastion. Entire eductaion system was destroyed by the muslim invaders. India's share of world GDP had started declining from that period. Whereas people flock to North America due to the institutions and opportunites the settlers have created for the entire world.

Please, stop comparing europeans of 17th century to arabs of 10th/11th century...

The Eurpean colonies are the most advanced states (USA, Canada, Australia, NZ etc...) and the Arab colonies are the most backward areas on earth (Egypt, Sudan etc...), with a great history of civilization.

Masadi sahib,

(comparison of Arab and European colonization )

European colonization did not always involve extermination (or nearly so) of locals. It did so in North America and Australia but not so in Lat Am (slavery), Asia (economic exploitation) or Africa (slave trade/economic exploitation).

Agreed that Arab Imperialism maybe never decimated the entire population of locals but it did bring about large scale cultural genocide. And of course in many countries like Pakistan locals are ashamed of admitting that they are of local descent and start inventing mythical ancestors (from Iraq for eg).

Regards

#472, unless you don't know how to read, why were the Hindus a majority and not a minority at the time of partition if the "Muslims" had done to them what the European settlers did to the Native Americans? Comprendey or should I get a fourth grader to explain this to you...bigot.