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US Conspiracy to Destablize Pakistan?

Moeed Pirzada January 18, 2008

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#1 Posted by HP on January 18, 2008 8:54:04 am

Stringent curbs on the Press and media would result in conspiracy theories increase and they would take life of their own. But in some instances, where certain groups feel they have no access to the media, they use whatever medium to spread conspiracy theories.

The Net has become the largest repository of the conspiracy theories as it is easy to print what you want to say. The author uses this same medium w/o actually understanding the factors behind the conspiracy theories!
Read this article which is much more scholarly and talks about Iranian conspiracy theories. (edited version)

Conspiracy theories and
the Persian Mind

By Ahmad Ashraf



Conspiracy theories in Persia are a complex set of beliefs attributing the course of Persian history and politics to the machinations of hostile foreign powers and secret organizations.

In contemporary social psychology such theories are defined as elaborate and internally consistent systems of "collective delusions," often tenaciously held and extremely difficult to refute.

Conspiracy theories often serve an important social function, helping to assuage certain kinds of anxiety among group members but also often limiting or hindering their capacity to respond effectively to external and internal social and political challenges.

Particularly since the beginning of the 20th century, Persians from all walks of life and all ideological orientations have relied on conspiracy theories as a basic mode of understanding politics and history.

The fact that the great powers have in fact intervened covertly in Persian affairs has led ordinary people, political leaders, even the rulers themselves to interpret their history in terms of elaborate and devious conspiracies.

The acceptance of such theories has in itself influenced the course of modern Persian history, for it has engendered a sense of helplessness in dealing with the rumored activities of foreign conspirators.

Conspiracy theories in modern Persia can generally be divided into two categories: those focused on supposed plots by Western colonial powers and those focused on satanic forces believed to have been active against Persia from antiquity to the present.

The Persian elite of the post-Mosaddeq period, one American diplomat noted, belied in the myth of "American omnipotence." Imagining that prime ministers were chosen by the United States, "candidates or would-be candidates for prime minister come to advertise their assets and their availability."

It was widely believed that the shah's White Revolution and the land-reform program of the 1960s had been designed in detail by Americans, though in fact American officials had favored more moderate land reform.

Leftists and many others in the middle class believed that the reforms had been designed to undermine the feudal basis of British interests in Persia. Khomeini, among others, considered land reform part of an American plot to destroy Persian agriculture in order to create a market for surplus American produce and to ensure Persian dependence on food supplies from the United States.

Conspiracy between the shi'ite olama and world powers.

In the 1980s Shoja-al-Din Shafa, a former Persian deputy court minister for cultural affairs, developed another conspiracy theory, based on ideas in the deposed shah's book that a "strange amalgam" -- among the Shi'ite clergy, leftists, Western media, major oil companies, and the British and American governments -- had set out to destroy the rapidly developing nation of Persia.

Shafa suggested that "the emergence of the Shi'ite olama in the 10th century constitutes the greatest conspiracy in Persian history and perhaps the oldest conspiracy in world history." The purpose was to emasculate true Shi'ism by transforming it into the instrument of corrupt Shi'ite leaders.

Three "capital investments" ensured the loyalty of the olama. First, they received financial support from temporal authorities and bazaaris, a "sacred coalition" of the forces of tyranny (estebdad), exploitation (estesmar) and demagoguery (estehmar).

Second, they accepted the "Indian money" and other contributions from Great Britain in the late 19th century. Finally, in the 1970s a gigantic coalition of big oil companies and the intelligence agencies of the United States, Great Britain, the U.S.S.R., and Israel used the olama to mobilize the forces of the Islamic revolution in order to halt the development of Persia and to prevent its impending entry into the "northern club."

Conspiracies of the Freemasons, Bahais and Zionists.

It is commonly believed in Persia that various elite groups are organized in secret lodges of Freemasons under the control of the British, who use them to advance their secret designs to control world affairs.

Groups accused of being under the thumb of the Freemasons include former courtiers, landowners, tribal chiefs, intellectuals, leading olama, wealthy merchants, contractors, influence peddlers, political bosses, and most politicians, including deputies to the Majles and cabinet members.

Belief in a conspiracy among the adherents of the Bahai faith is based on a forged document attributed to Prince Dimitri Dolgorukov (known in Persian as Kinyaz Dalguroki), the Russian minister to Persia in 1846-54.

It purports to a memoir in which the prince described how he created the Babi and Bahai faiths as a way of weakening Shi'ism and Persia as a whole. It was first circulated in Tehran in various forms in the late 1930s and has since been widely cited in Muslim polemics as evidence that the Bahais were controlled first by the Russians and later by the British or the Americans or both.

Those who believe in an international Jewish conspiracy to dominate the world find their proof in the protocols of the Elders of Zion, a document originally forged by the czarist secret police but still widely accepted as authentic in the Middle East.

The Zionist conspiracy is thought to have supported the "despotic" rule of the shah; for example, soldiers who are supposed to have massacred "thousands" of innocent people on Black Friday (8 September 1978) are said to have been Israelis.

Some people have argued that Israel supported the Islamic revolution in order to weaken its only potential rival for domination in the region by replacing the shah with a "vulnerable and dependent Islamic regime."

The popularity of conspiracy theories among Persians arises from a combination of political, social, psychological, and cultural factors: frequent foreign interference during the period of semicolonialism in the early 20th century and great-power politics in the 1940s-80s; the legacy of deeply rooted pre-Islamic and Shi'ite cultural beliefs about satanic forces; and the effectiveness of such theories as a collective defense mechanism, particularly during periods of powerlessness, defeat, and political turmoil.

Certain deep-rooted aspects of the Persian cultural heritage, which seem to have no parallel in other Muslim societies, may also have contributed to the popularity of conspiracy theories. They include a dualistic world view, probably derived from pre-Islamic religious beliefs, in which good and evil powers were considered to be in conflict, with the latter directing the course of history.

The mythological character of traditional Persian historiography, which may reflect a particular receptivity to the mythological mode of thought; a propensity to poetic exaggeration (eghraq-e sha'erana) among the Persians at all social levels; and a long tradition of attributing miraculous deeds to the twelve Shi'ite imams are other probable contributing factors.

Although blaming others can help assuage anxiety about failures, ready acceptance of conspiracy theories has also proved to be highly dysfunctional; in modern Persia it has contributed to political malaise that has sometimes precluded rational responses to internal and external crises.
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#2 Posted by masadi on January 18, 2008 9:05:13 am
A poorly written article that does not seek to examine the merits of what he calls "conspiracy theory" but tries to discard them all with a broad brush and label of cowards that know no better saying "conspiracy theory". A country like the US who has a long history of meddling in political affairs of others and has a special interest in Pakistani affairs and its military, and the open support it gave to BB in setting up deals with dictators and the luke warm condemnation of the assassination thereafter, not to mention the changing stance of BB all through the affair tells us that things just arent as normal as the author would like us to believe, it is not just business as usual where they are saints and we are evil people and so we find ourselves in this mess. Just look at this stupid comment by the author "Will anyone demand to know who sent the water hoses from ‘Tel Aviv’ to wash the scene of crime in Pindi?"

This is a third rate ignorant comment, suppose the Mossad were involved in the affair they would not leave the bottom down ground work to their field operative they would have some insider do this jamadari. In any case HP main don't give these fools fuel to rubbish every fact as "conspiracy theory" and as I said you should return to the homeland and leave the most miserable place humanity has ever invented as habitat....sincerely,./...
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#3 Posted by nasah on January 18, 2008 9:27:17 am
The biggest destabilizer of Pakistan is neither USA nor Israel nor the lethargic Flash Gordon of 'Great Britain' -- it is a renegade greedy Soldier of Fortune who hijacked the presidency at gunpoint for himself -- has destablized Pakistan for job security -- who has no business being in a place like the the Aiwane Sadr. Sooner he gets out of the place that he never deserved -- the better for the country's stability.
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#4 Posted by fuzair on January 18, 2008 9:32:14 am
I think it was Brad DeLong who paraphrased David Landes as arguing that whether a society or a culture grows rich and successful depends upon how they react to some huge setback a the societal level.

If the response is "Who did this to us?" and look for foreign and domestic scapegoats, then the culture/society is going nowhere fast. If the response is "How can we fix this and make sure it can't happen ever again?" then the culture/society is going to progress and develop.

I'll leave it to the reader to decide which group we fall in.
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#5 Posted by tahir on January 18, 2008 9:55:33 am
Re: # 4

Don't we know each other from somewhere?

Well, after 911 (actually ELEVEN-NINE for the rest of us), America quickly discovered and then concealed the true who-did-it-to-us bit. The confession never came!

Then, instead of biting its own lips, it started this 'war on terror'. America hasn't fixed its own leaking faucet at home and is out to 'fix' our showers!

Who let Pearl Harbour happen? Not us, I'm sure. According to the references you've given, a country that wants others to be 'bombed into stone-age' is itself headed nowhere fast.

Peace.
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#6 Posted by rf786 on January 18, 2008 10:28:57 am
Re: # 3

Changing nameplates will not solve the problem, we need to solve cure the disease and that is military involvement in Pakistan politics.
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#7 Posted by HP on January 18, 2008 10:35:56 am
#5 Posted by tahir
“America quickly discovered and then concealed the true who-did-it-to-us bit. The confession never came!�

I have been following your posts on your own board and enjoying them too.

When we blame people for concocting conspiracy theories, we often forget that some government actions play an important part in that propagation. Like in the case of 9-11. How in the world the US intelligence agencies missed that for almost two years and then knew the culprits in less than 24 hours after the incident! They surely had tabs on the bad guys after the embassy bombing and the Cole incident.

Whenever there is a murder, some people know whodunit. In Pakistan no one finds out about the political murders and that gives plenty of ammo to the common folks to start speculating. That speculation ultimately becomes a conspiracy theory. Like the US is not willing to have a thorough inquiry of 911, Pakistani would never find out who killed Liaquat, Zia and now Benazir.

With so much muck and guess work around the incidents, no one should blame common folks for coming up with conspiracy theory.

Here is CIA trying to save the Pak army’s neck by supporting the a Pakistan government sponsored conspiracy theory that Bait ulah Massod did it. Now the question is: if they knew Bait ullah Mehsod did it only a few hours after the incident, then I am sure they must be keeping tabs on Mehsod’s whereabouts and conversations way before the murder.

This piece of support would spark another round of conspiracy theories in Pakistan.

The CIA has made conclusions w/o doing any investigation on the ground and have provided the lead to the Scotland Yard as to what to say when they finish investigations in Pakistan.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080118/ap_on_go_ot/us_pakistan

WASH INGTON - The CIA has concluded that a Pakistani tribal leader's network was behind the assassination of former Pakistan Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto, according to a U.S. intelligence official.
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#8 Posted by masadi on January 18, 2008 10:50:44 am
nasah writes "it is a renegade greedy Soldier of Fortune who hijacked the presidency at gunpoint for himself "

Here is where you totally lose it. It was not a "greedy" soldier of Fortune, rather it is an institution that has been placed in a position by the regional situation and exploited and strengthened by the US, so that it can usurp power time and again and that is tolerated, nay promoted by the major power broker in the region, the US. Comparing the Brit/US shenanigans in this area to "Flash Gordon" makes your post sound extremely disingenuous and the previous posts quite hypocritical...
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#9 Posted by masadi on January 18, 2008 10:53:27 am
The ueber mythology around the globe is spread by the US with its city on the hill ideology that is actually a swamp hole atop a shit hole. In this muck infested mythology, some people get to the truth by clearing away the crap. Since the mythology of this swamp hole atop a shit hole is threatened the proponents of it term those efforts at getting past the dung "conspiracy theory". The biggest "conspiracy theory" involves the current mythology under which one state is dictating its will to the others and getting away with it all as being a promoter of democracy.

HP mian you need to return to the homeland...
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#10 Posted by masadi on January 18, 2008 11:43:58 am
fuzair writes "If the response is "Who did this to us?" and look for foreign and domestic scapegoats, then the culture/society is going nowhere fast."

When you have certain players dominating global institutions and you try to counter that with "personal responsibility", you will get nowhere. Rather understanding the problem's source to try to fix is is not "scapegoating". Only fools wanting to maintain the status quo will term it as such...When good comes out of something, even when not remotely connected to it, the US is always there to claim success, Iraq, libya and the so-called network of AQK are current examples, and when it has caused others to fail by putting them knee deep in shit, as in the case of Pakistan and its military's role in the WOT, not to mention trying to salvage it through the BB, who wouldn't play towards the end, then they say "we had nothing to do with it, these goddamned inferiors just arent mature enough for democracy".....and the rats like tahmed and fuzair help further the role of the US bastards
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#11 Posted by viqarm on January 18, 2008 1:26:37 pm
It is logical that given the current geopolitics, competition for the control of energy resources, and Pakistan's unfortunate location, there is bound to be some foreign interference in Pakistan's affairs. The main reason it gets bloated to full blown conspiracy theories is the Pak govt's own unwillingness, or inability, to provide full/credible information and to maintain transparency. Laughable explanations such as BB died due to hitting her head against the hook on the sunroof is a prime example of what I am talking about.

Whether or not there are external conspiracies to destabilize Pakistan is immaterial. The real question is: do the govt. and the people of Pakistan passively allow such interference to occur and then endlessly complain about it, like a bunch of impotents?
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#12 Posted by fuzair on January 18, 2008 1:53:36 pm
Tahir Sahib,

I was thinking more of our predilection for always blaming someone else but the US fits here very nicely. After 9-11, the US certainly didn't ask itself why are there thousands of nutjob jihadis running around? Did our support of the Saudi Wahabis and Afghan Mujahideen cause this disaster?

In other posts I've criticized the US and our Afghan policy in the 1980s. And we are the only ones really paying the price for this mistaken policy but virtually the entire country, barring a few unreformed Commies, supported the Afghani Jihad at first. Some of us grew to truly hate the Afghan barbarians infesting our land but we still refused to acknowledge the fact that the Communist government was, initially at least, the best govt that Afghanistan had ever had.
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#13 Posted by masadi on January 18, 2008 3:42:37 pm
viqarm writes "The real question is: do the govt. and the people of Pakistan passively allow such interference to occur and then endlessly complain about it, like a bunch of impotents? "

Reminds me of the BS US democracy talk. Taking the blame away from the power brokers, the real culprits and placing it where it least belongs, the people of Pakistan. When throughout its history, except for the brief period under ZAB (may Allah bless the good he did)the people of Pakistan were out of design kept out of the political process and all avenues for them to express their political will were methodically shut down by the Pakistan Army. Regarding the government, by which any damn fool knows if they know anything that the real governance of Pakistan on behalf of America is done by the Pakistan Army- when the entire livelihood of this bunch of leeches is based on maintaing this status quo why will they challenge it....Get a grip on the facts fool, the blame lies least of all with the people and most of all with the neo-colonial shaitan, the US elite.
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#14 Posted by nasah on January 18, 2008 5:24:31 pm
The Pakistanis are destabilizing their own country -- at this stage of the game not the Americans.

Americans did not kill Benazir -- that is a cockamamie story -- American agent Musharraf did not kill Benazir either -- Musharraf's agents did.

The Americans can be accused of looking the other way for their agent's repeated misdeeds -- as Musharraf must be accused of looking the other way at his agent's dastardly destabilizing deeds that includes the assassination of Benazir -- Scotland Yard or no Scotland Yard.

No wonder they were the "foreign experts" who were invited to investigate the hosed out scene of crime -- with their preordained conclusions towing the party line.
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#15 Posted by Kulharee on January 18, 2008 5:47:06 pm
Masadi, why do you act like such an idiot? She was married to him because that’s how the system of arranged marriages work (thank your culture and religion for that), and she never undid any of her dad’s nonsense. She in fact kept the stupid believing in the Last polygamist prophet to be considered a Muslim. I don’t know what crap you talk about. You should just get lost.
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#16 Posted by masadi on January 18, 2008 6:04:13 pm
Nasah writes "The Pakistanis are destabilizing their own country -- at this stage of the game not the Americans. "

And you say this in the same paragraph in which you say Musharraf is an "agent of the Americans". There is absolutely nothing "cockamamie" in American involvement with the BB murder, even if we ignore their history of politically motivated assassinations, they were in on it from the very start, they gave guarantees to the BB and she had complete confidence in those guarantees alone but they happened to be fake guarantees. The Pak Army would do nothing to get on the bad side of its masters, the US elite, it takes only one phonecall to get them back in line, that the US told them to do as they please in this case after BB wouldn't play is obvious as daylight. Get your thinking cap on or you'll sound just like Kulharee does here every weekend, as a drunk bum who lets forth multiple insults and curses against my posts without making a dime worth of sense...

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#17 Posted by masadi on January 18, 2008 6:13:56 pm
By the way Kulharee I know you are dead drunk as you are every Friday on chowk, it is quite apparent by your posts, but that is the pathetic escape living in the swamp hole (USA) necessitates for you to carry on your miserable life, at least reply on the correct thread, my BB post you are replying to was made on the Darlymple thread, you are lost in another one....I pity you fool, return to the homeland and leave Dumbo here if she is preventing you from rescuing your wasted life...
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#18 Posted by Goldfinger on January 18, 2008 6:17:03 pm
Re: # 13Masadi, previously I could not respond to your posts since I was pre-occupied somewhere else. I just wanted to tell you that your idolatrous infatuation with ZAB is very well if you wish to continue to be infatuated by a nightmare, but you do so at your own peril, because no leader in the checkered history of this unfortunate nation deserves such adulation, least of all a corrupt, hypocritical megalomaniac. ZAB helped split the country, which caused a civil war in the eastern wing in which thousands brutally perished. He said that he believed in democracy, yet when he lost elections, he refused to concede defeat. He preached socialism and roti, kapra aur makan to everyone to instigate civil unrest to grab power, yet refused to shun his personal feudal/wadera life style, and at public expense built palaces worth millions of dollars to live in, bought a private jet also at public expense, as well as being the first of our high and mighty leaders to commandeer PIA airliners for himself and his cronies to jet set the world in, wore designer people’s suits, conspired and murdered political foes, brought religion into politics for personal gratification while being hugely inebriated by the intoxication of alcoholic beverages, massively rigged elections to have himself re-elected, and ultimately like a dunce drove himself right into the gallows. How sad and pathetic to deliver nothing for all the love and support the people bestowed on him, whom no doubt he had roused by his rhetoric jugglery.
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#19 Posted by masadi on January 18, 2008 6:28:05 pm
Goldfinger writes "I just wanted to tell you that your idolatrous infatuation with ZAB is very well if you wish to continue to be infatuated by a nightmare"

I have replied to your nonsense before. There is absolutely no infatuation nor any idolatory involved. The single thing that I admire about ZAB was the political context from which he arose, which he challenged and then infused self worth into people that since the time of MAJ in Pakistan (and before by the colonials) had been treated like cattle and pigs. That itself is paramount achievement, but a man is capable of it so there no idolatory in admiring that. Regarding your criticism of ZAB those are all ad hominem arguments that regardless of what truth might be in them or not don't take a dime away from the above mentioned achievements of the man, many of them are borrowed from the Mullah's perverted morality. ZAB had nothing to do with breaking up the country, your perverted sense of where the power belonged at the time forces you to state that. The two parts were setup for division from the very start, ZABs efforts saved what you today know as Pakistan rather than losing both because of the doings of the Pakistan Army and Pakistan Army alone.
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#20 Posted by arjun_4 on January 18, 2008 6:35:03 pm
#9 Posted by masadi on January 18, 2008 10:53:27 am


is spread by the US with its city on the hill


That's shining city on the hill for you, Mr gets-his-paycheck-from-the-puppet-paki-government.
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#21 Posted by masadi on January 18, 2008 6:44:06 pm
arjun "Mr gets-his-paycheck-from-the-puppet-paki-government"

I do not work for that government funded institution anymore, where my paycheck had absolutely nothing to do with the government funds, the chaprasee wages I made were more than covered by one and a half student's fees (out of 300 or so)
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#22 Posted by Ras on January 18, 2008 7:44:45 pm


El Faida did it!
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#23 Posted by viqarm on January 18, 2008 10:01:03 pm
Re: # 13
"Get a grip on the facts fool, the blame lies least of all with the people and most of all with the neo-colonial shaitan, the US elite".

God!!! I guess your favorite crowd is not posting much today :-).

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#24 Posted by Zeena on January 18, 2008 10:29:30 pm
Writer sahib
Well, when someone lost everything at the brink of a second, then obviously that person has every right to assume or to suspect for the real culprits....

Lets take an example of you here, if, by any chance any of your family memeber ets assassinated or your own home gets in to fire or someone bomb your house or you? What would be your reaction?

Yes, you'll have all these conspiracy theories...And yes, conspiracy theories are the main ointment for the victims and yes I'll call such theories as blessings for those who are left behind with nothing at all.

If our beloved country Pakistan is burning in fire currently then we as Pakistani citizens have every right to speculate all such conspiracy theories.....and trust me we're always right......

Yes, BB got assassinated by some international org. with the help of President Musharaf and that's the sad reality......
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#25 Posted by pavocavalry on January 18, 2008 10:57:04 pm
the usa has a strategic interest in pakistan and knows that paki military junta cannot survive without us help.

however their prime concern is the freedom of manoeuvre with which many anti united states groups are operating in pakistan.thus benazir was seen as a good choice to deliver the goods.now that she is no more , the usa has many other excellent candidates waiting in line.

traditionally the army particularly the punjabi troops who constitute about 65 % as well as the pashtuns from settled areas like yusufzais and khattaks have traditionally been good mercenaries , particularly the punjabi troops even fired on the kaba and were staunchly loyal in 1857 , in first and second world war.

the united states needs not conspire but it has certain strategic aims although there is the friction of factors beyond USAs control.

for anyone interested in US conspiracies " DOCUMENTS FROM THE US ESPIONAGE SPYDEN" printed by Islamic Republic of Iran in 1979 are an interesting reading.

The USA needs not conspire but it certainly has a military strategic agenda for the region specially Pakistan.Its occupation of Afghanistan is one of the phases in this.

In miitary strategy there is a concept of centre of gravity and pakistan certainly is the centre of gravity of islamists of a certain breed.the usa wants to knock this centre of gravity out.

the usa in any case knows that paki generals as well as paki politicians cannot survive without us help.
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#26 Posted by Ladgasht on January 18, 2008 11:04:32 pm
This character is an apologist for USA.

His style is that of a US covert Psy Warfare paid operative trained in psy warfare in Fort Hood and Fort Sill USA.

Very mediocre article.
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#27 Posted by zeemax on January 18, 2008 11:42:04 pm
... and then the Washington Post interview of the CIA Chief Hayden yesterday who states unequivocally "Baitullah Mehsud and Al-Qaeda did it". Didn't present any evidence though, and just said what Musharraf said within hours of the assassination.

According to Kasuri, the Pakistan ex-FM, he was asked to say this by Pakistanis. Analysts like Gen Asad Durrani say it is merely to bail out Musharraf from public accusations of Govt involvement.

But I think otherwise. I think it is a pre-cursor to actual US ground troops involvement in Pakistan Tribal Region at Pakistan's request.

Would be great to have Pavo's opinion.
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#28 Posted by FakirIppi on January 18, 2008 11:58:12 pm
Re: # 27 Zee , pavo is not here but I am reproducing his article published in Frontier Post Peshawar,The Post Lahore below.

5 Minutes over Islamabad

A.H Amin

August 2007

There appears to be a strong evolving consensus in the USA as well as its NATO allies that Pakistan is the centre of gravity of the Islamists in the ongoing so called war on terror. This idea gained currency in various high US policy making circles as well as think tanks around 1987-89 and then assumed a solid shape in the decade 1990-2000. After 2001 it was adopted as a policy and concrete albeit top secret planning was started to deal with Pakistan which at the ulterior level was seen as part of the problem rather than a solution.

When the Spaniards landed in Mexico their main collaborators were indigenous Mexicans themselves. In Pakistan, the USA made use of indigenous collaborators: Generals whose sons had a US passport; bankers who were US nationals but also dual Pakistani citizens. These leaders justified collaboration with the USA after 9/11 on the grounds that what they did was the only guarantee for the survival of Pakistan!

The Pakistani military junta in 2001 was isolated internationally so it was very easy for the USA to overawe it with one telephone call. The life of a career army officer revolves around getting a good annual report from his superiors. The Generals are no exception. Pakistan's military leadership grasped at the opportunity to get a 'pat at the back' from their geopolitical strategic boss - the US President - and eagerly provided airbases and all logistic support to the USA. This was a short term measure and Pakistani military junta had a sigh of relief as it's survival in power was ensured. It had no connection with survival of Pakistan as a state. Compare how Iran is surviving as a state despite defying the USA since 1979. Later, the fiction that USA threatened Pakistan with bombing it to the Stone Age was invented. The weak-kneed irresolution was rationalized as supreme strategic brilliance. Some 'media men' who are also running private businesses were in the forefront praising strategic timidity as strategic brilliance.

In "Real Strategic Terms" what happened was that Pakistani military junta's collaborated (providing logistic support and air bases) with the USA to enable it to occupy Afghanistan with little cost in men and material. This was no mean strategic achievement as it placed the USA right below the soft underbelly of China as well as Russia. More significantly, it reduced the flying time to strike Pakistani nuclear as well as missile installations. Close proximity to Pakistan also enabled the USA to obtain intelligence and conduct covert operations inside Pakistan far more effectively than ever before.

It was theorized in secret sessions of the highest level in US decision making circles that although the Islamists fighting the USA had no fixed centre of gravity which could be attacked and eliminated, Pakistan with its sympathetic pro Islamist populace and nuclear and missile assets was at least a provisional centre of gravity of the Islamists. It may be noted that the US feared, not the ISI, not the tin-pot Pakistani military junta, but the sentiments of the bulk of the Pakistani populace and its arsenal of nuclear warheads and missiles.

The occupation of Afghanistan was seen as a potential US base to carry out a raid in '5 minutes over Islamabad' like the Israelis did with US cooperation to destroy Iraq's nuclear reactor in 5 minutes over Baghdad in 1981.

In 1945, the USA had bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki not for any direct military purpose but to overawe the USSR that no one could match the US military might. The USSR responded to the challenge and developed a massive nuclear arsenal to counter US aspirations to control the world. Later, China also emerged as another challenger to US ambition to control the resources of the world. Thanks to the help by USSR, many Asian countries and African countries fought and won wars of liberation. The Arabs were able to confront Israel only because of the Soviet aid, until the collaborator Anwar Sadaat sold his soul to the USA and Israel!

The USA was all set to 'cut Pakistan to size' in 1977 when it financed the anti Bhutto agitation in 1977. The role of the military under General Zia ul Haq would have been no different to that of Musharraf but for the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan from 1979 till 1989. The emergence of effective resistance in Afghanistan and Pakistan's willingness to support was too good an opportunity to miss. USA had to put its plan to destabilise Pakistan on hold as it had no option other than using Pakistan's help and its bases for assisting the anti Soviet War in Afghanistan.

Change of posture came very quickly. In the 1990s, after the Soviet troops had withdrawn, the USA started demonising Pakistan as a terrorist state presenting the liberation struggle in Jammu and Kashmir as 'terrorism'. It was basically a war of nerves the decisive point of which was one telephone call which made Pakistan's tin pot military junta take the so called "brilliant strategic decision" of collaborating with the USA.

After the disintegration of the USSR, strategically speaking, the military targets of the USA were the littoral states of the Indian Ocean. The Iraq War of 1990, the invasion of capture of Afghanistan in 2001, the invasion and capture of Iraq in 2003, all have the same aim - domination of the Indian Ocean region. Interestingly, Iraq and Afghanistan were not ultimate objectives; they are merely convenient bridge-heads from which to launch further operations. This was only Phase One; Phase Two may be Pakistan, and Phase Three may be Iran. Phase Four may well be Chinese Xinxiang and/or Central Asian Republics. The American advance is sometimes called Orange Revolution of Ukraine. But its first good example was the anti Bhutto agitation that they financed in 1977 in Pakistan. Now they call it a 'war on terror' or war against weapons of mass destruction (WMD).

History has shown that generals fail as statesmen. In 1936, all of Hitler's generals opposed his decision to march into Rhineland. This is because the generals think in terms of gaining and holding territory. They do not appreciate the value of intangible factors like resolute determination. After 9/11, when Pakistan's tin pot junta war-gamed invasion by the USA, it thought only in military terms - losses vs gains. It failed to appreciate that the USA had been humbled in war in Vietnam and also in a war of nerves - sort of diplomatic contest - with Iran in 1979. They facilitated the destruction and occupation of Afghanistan by the USA unmindful of the fact that low cost of victory would encourage further invasion. Pakistan shall pay a heavy price for this. Whether Mr Armitage said so or not, the USA will bomb some parts of Pakistan to the stone age in order to denuclearize Pakistan.

Pakistan is in a strange strategic situation. It is led by a military dictator whose sole aim is to stay in power. His number two - the so called prime minister - is a US citizen. In the case the President dies naturally or unnaturally his successor - the Chairman Senate - would also be a US citizen. Politically, the USA is the real rulers of Pakistan already. But the Americans are still not happy. Their aim is denuclearization and complete submission of Pakistan.

Imagine the following scenario! Pakistan's military dictator is killed in a mysterious air crash or is assassinated by soldier on duty like Prime Minister Indira Gandhi of India. The USA immediately issues an ultimatum that it fears that Pakistan's nuclear arsenal may fall in the hands of extremists. A surgical nuclear strike is launched on Kahuta and Islamabad. Another general takes over power in Pakistan and capitulates to all US demands dismantling the Pakistani nuclear arsenal and its missiles rationalising this on the ground that if he did not do so the USA would bomb Pakistan to Stone Age. In the following ten years Pakistan is balkanised with an independent US supported Baluchistan and an independent puppet Pashtun state in NWFP and Northern Pashtun majority districts of Baluchistan. An independent Sindh in the South, an independent Kashmir and Northern Areas with US bases for future operations against Xinxiang from the Deosai Plateau. It is only the Punjab which is left as Pakistan. No nukes, no missiles, no resolve! Just like defeat of the Muslims in Granada that led to their genocide in Spain and finally even Granada was eliminated in 1492.

This is not pessimism; this is hard strategic reality. The writing is clear on the wall. The war which USA is fighting is not against the Pashtun tribes of Waziristan but against all Muslims. Bagram, Khost, Jalalabad and Kandahar airfields are being developed not against the Taliban or against the Al Qaeda but for 5 minutes over Islamabad!

In strategy, things moves very slowly and it is the greatness of a statesman and military commander to assess what will happen in next 5 or ten years. Here in Pakistan we have a situation where our military leaders are overawed by just one phone call. From leaders of such a calibre one cannot expect resolute determination or strategic insight.

From 1979 to 1988, Pakistan's military junta, after seizing power through the backdoor, provided the USA with an active base to destabilize and destroy Afghanistan's de facto government. All infrastructure of Afghanistan was destroyed as well as all its institutions between 1979 and 1992. Now if the Afghan state allows the USA to do so to Pakistan, it should not be a surprise. Why did Pakistan's military junta of 1977-88 support the so called Afghan Jihad? It was to enable General Zia stay in power. The characters were different, but the motivation was the same in 2001 as in 1979.

The scenario may be disbelieved by sceptics. However, if history be the guide, there is no room for doubt or complacency. If Saddam Hussain - the principal CIA asset in the Middle East - could be killed and his country destroyed on the mere suspicion that Iraq possessed Weapons of Mass Destruction why is Pakistan not a perfectly legitimate target for the USA? It is a Muslim country and it does possess the WMD without any doubt! Saddam was more secular than any Muslim leader in modern history yet his country and he himself were targeted and destroyed! What is the aim of this so called 'enlightened Islam' espoused by Musharraf? It is supposed to act as anaesthesia for the USA and also destroy all the resistance power of the Pakistani nation! If not strategic brilliance at least we have good anaesthetists at the top! In war, surprise is the key. The US will not politely announce its intentions before it raids Pakistan. It could find any number of excuses provided by inevitable destabilisation that always results from ousting dictators. Musharraf, Benazir and any other general who may emerge as the leader are merely pawns in the game. They can be removed by air crashes or assassinations. Waziristan, Al Qaeda and terrorism are mere slogans. The Pakistan Army is being forced into Waziristan by the USA not to attack the Al Qaeda but to create an internal divide in Pakistan.

There have been many cases of desertion of soldiers in units in Waziristan as well as cases of refusal of officers for carrying out duties against their conscience. What kind of 'enlightened moderation' prescribed by Musharraf would ward of the dangers when the enemy is not merely at the gates and even inside the Pakistani citadel of power? What can be expected from leaders whose sons are US citizens or who consider USA safer for their families to live than Pakistan? What can be expected from US citizens now enjoying high political office in Pakistan after having a good time in Bank of America or CITI Bank? What respect will the army jawan have for leaders more distinguished for deciding not to fight a battle after one telephone call; who are more interested in privatizing the PSO, PTCL or the Steel Mill?

Five Minutes over Islamabad is not a just a nightmare scenario; it is a distinct possibility! Is this not ironical that a nation that provided so many pilots to their blood brothers in Syria, Iraq, and Jordan, who downed many Israeli aircrafts over the Golan, over Amman and in Iraq, should be so irresolute and afraid? Today the Pakistani leaders are sycophantically courting Israel. Why? When a country has leaders who want to save their chair or their skin but not their country; whose rest pad is in the USA; the whole nation is afraid.

Pakistan today is led by collaborators who will go to any extent to continue in power. The nuclear and military assets of the country are in peril because of them. They have actively cooperated with the enemy, deceived and lied to the people. Submission and surrender is the hallmarks of our leaders who portray their timid strategic collaboration as 'strategic brilliance'. A secret clause of 'Vision 2030' propaganda of Pakistan's present leadership is that by 2030 Pakistan would be a Balkanised state with no nuclear and missile assets and kicked by all its neighbours. Good luck to vision 2030!
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#29 Posted by FakirIppi on January 19, 2008 12:00:09 am
Pirzada true to his intellectual level lacks depth as well as conviction.Typical so called liberal.Good job . As clear as mud and real assorted nonsense.
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#30 Posted by zeemax on January 19, 2008 1:36:39 am
#25 Posted by pavocavalry,

In miitary strategy there is a concept of centre of gravity

Yes. It is significant that the centre of gravity has now been shifted from Afghanistan to Pakistan. Quite predictable what's next.
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#31 Posted by zeemax on January 19, 2008 1:37:28 am
#28 Posted by FakirIppi,

Thanks FakrIppi Saheb.
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#32 Posted by hamidm2 on January 19, 2008 3:33:22 am
the price of atta


.... my grandma (god bless her soul) used to say that during the british raj atta was a rupee a maund and there was plenty of it ..... there was rule of the white man's law and god stayed in heaven minding his own business ..... there were no jihadis, suicide bombers, cattle thieves or crooked politicians ........ during the ghadar of 1857 there was some trouble in meerut and delhi, but the sahib took care of business and promptly strung up the trouble makers from the nearest lamp post ...... life was good for abdul and my grandma ....... it was a mistake to end the raj ........

..... i, for one, would be happy if the us took over the the reins of pakistan for a couple of decades until we are ready to mind our own affairs ...... the white man must bear his burden .......
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#33 Posted by blithe on January 19, 2008 3:57:40 am

It is a bit lame to be coming up with these conspiracy theories... Note that the journalists coming up with these theories are the most pro-government and spineless individuals, eg. Ahmad Qureshi.

Our problem lies with our internal checks and balances (or lack thereof). If you want to dismantle the judiciary, terrorize the press, install Musharaf's covering candidate (soomoro) and other Q leaguers in the so called "neutral' caretaker government , then you have NO right to float 'international" conspiracy theories.

As the Radiohead song goes: "You do it to yourself, and that is what really hurts."

Yes, Paksitan with a dictator is most vulnerable to outside influence (because Musharraf lacks internal electoral credibility)... BUT as civil society we have to address the real issue, i.e. we have to insist on independence of institutions. You have to differentiate the core disease from the symptoms.

The best thing that Pakitan can do at this stage is to sentence Musharraf for desecrating the constitution. I know it is far fetched at this stage (because Musharraf has given a great blow to the independence of the judiciary)... but he must be brought to book by Pakistanis for his crimes and lies against Pakistan (I do not think he should ever be given a safe passage to Turkey).


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#34 Posted by hamidm2 on January 19, 2008 4:35:38 am
the bum of islam

... can someone remind me about what is it that pakistan has that america wants so badly ? .... we don't have oil or gold; even our human resources are pretty pathetic as represented by the sample we have on chowk ..... and inspite of masadi's paranoia, i doubt it very much that the us would attack pakistan to get rid of him when they have crazy kooks like ward churchill running loose in their own country ...... so what is it?........ we don't have atta, cheeni, gas or electricity ? ....cotton? .... now it seems that we have a problem there as well ........ so what the heck is it ?

........wait a minute ! ........ it must be the atom bum ! ....... the very same bum that i celebrated with a big bum party and invited my smug neighbor dr gupta and his head-wagging wife ..... look guys, like all pakis i was petrified by the two weeks of deafening silence that followed the bhaji blast by the vegetarians and was absolutely delighted when we finally tested the bum to protect us from the heen-eating horrible hindoos ........

.......... but that was then, when i feared the hindoos more than the muslims who want to blow up the world ..... now, like all other reasonable people, i too am worried that al-lah's dark forces will somehow get their dirty paws on our precious bum and do something nasty ...... based on the recent performance of the pakistani army i am not sure they can protect our bum ........ so let's give it up to the americans who can protect us from ourselves .......let's give up our bum to save our bum
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#35 Posted by mohar11 on January 19, 2008 4:46:26 am
Re: # 32 hamimd

Well, I am not sure.. looking at what whiteman has done to economy of the US of A in last 8 years, I am not too optimistic on the whiteman's abilities...

Time for a black man or a white woman... :)
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#36 Posted by mohar11 on January 19, 2008 4:51:55 am
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#37 Posted by arjun_4 on January 19, 2008 5:15:08 am
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#38 Posted by mohar11 on January 19, 2008 5:18:32 am
you know why you are always in trouble one way or the other - one word - delusion.... you always pretend to be what you are not...

Examples: you pakis try to be more bedouin than bedouins... you are half hinud but try to be more muslim than king saud... you are dark and puny in stature but pretend to be white and big... you are pygmies intellectually, but pretend to be great scholars spouting same old nonsense day in and day out...

Most importantly - you are generally s!ssies but you pretend to be great warriors... you guys have always been the supplicants and surrender monkeys throughout thousand years in history, you have bent over for any smelly barbarian has managed to cross the mountains... or these days, whoever manages to make a phone call at the dead of the night...

This one delusion has cost you lot... you have tried to punch above your weight, fought unnecessarily with bad hinuds on the neighborhood, lost half the country... you even went ahead and stole yourself a bum, you thought somehow the bum will make you what you are not... that was the ultimate delusion... the bum could never make a dal-eating paki into a great warrior...

Now - you have run out of atta and dal... see what you done to yourselves?...
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#39 Posted by hamidm2 on January 19, 2008 5:23:58 am
Re: # 38

mohar mian,

based on your response i take back my last post and am glad that we have the bum ....... as a matter of fact i think we should use it on a day the wind is blowing in the right direction !
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#40 Posted by arjun_4 on January 19, 2008 5:24:13 am
#21 Posted by masadi on January 18, 2008 6:44:06 pm


I do not work for that government funded institution anymore


you couldn't even keep your job in a PAKI university...I mean, come on!!! the bar was really really low and you failed!!
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#41 Posted by arjun_4 on January 19, 2008 5:24:55 am
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#42 Posted by hamidm2 on January 19, 2008 5:29:15 am
Re: # 41

fool! ......... it is not sea biscuit, it is 'buraq'
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#43 Posted by mohar11 on January 19, 2008 5:30:34 am
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#44 Posted by mohar11 on January 19, 2008 5:34:26 am
what do they say in hindi: langda chale hansa ka chal...
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#45 Posted by hamidm2 on January 19, 2008 5:36:33 am
Re: # 43

mohar mian,

..... there are no 'good' pakis when it comes to dealing with horrible hindoos ....... grandpa gopinath might have made a mistake, but the process of circumcision is irreversible ........
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#46 Posted by ahmedmadani on January 19, 2008 5:43:56 am
Re: # 25 America is not only friend we have. China is most important friend and brother we have and all citizens love china. Generals can count on China.Pakistan is very important to china, it controls India and keeps India down with Pakistani friendship.
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#47 Posted by ijaz_gul on January 19, 2008 5:50:23 am
King of spins!
Fuzair,
Were you in Pakistan when the nation unified after the earthquake? Plz dont bombast theories
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#48 Posted by mohar11 on January 19, 2008 6:00:59 am
Re: # 45hamidm

I know... when zeemax runs after you with his pocket guillotine, remember who to run to... :)
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#49 Posted by mohar11 on January 19, 2008 6:02:16 am
Re: # 46 madni

Yep - run from one sugar daddy to another.... :)
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#50 Posted by bulleya on January 19, 2008 6:22:30 am
FakirIppi #: "Generals whose sons had a US passport; bankers who were US nationals but also dual Pakistani citizens...."

...interesting article....i believe it is not possible to be a dual national, if one has a US citizenship.....So the Prime Minister (SA) and Chairman Senate etc. cannot be dual nationals.....

.in addition, one cannot become the PM or Chairman Senate of Pakistan, without being a Pakistani national.....hence more than likely, these, "bankers" carry a Pakistani passport with a US green card........
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#51 Posted by bulleya on January 19, 2008 6:34:16 am
hamidm2 #: "........wait a minute ! ........ it must be the atom bum ! ....... the very same bum that i celebrated with a big bum party and invited my smug neighbor dr gupta..."

yes...it would have to be the bum......though, i don't think the usa had much concern about it, until it got itself sucked into the whole middle east conflict, a few decades ago......now america is caught in a war, where it is fully supporting israel, with the muslims supporting palestine.....

i am still waiting for a us president, who has the guts to slap the silly israeli leaders into the real world, and tell him that israel is not going beyond the 67 borders....and then form a palestine state.......

the whole world has agreed to this; only usa, marshall islands, tuvalu, micronesia and usa vote in favor of israel......

after which, usa can buy oil, cheap, from arabs and arabs can buy ipods at high prices from the usa......and pakistanis can fo back to fighting indians and live happily ever after......instead of worrying about liberating palestine or afghanistan or iraq......

i have never seen a country than give $1000/year per person of aid to another, and yet this aid-taking country is able to dictate terms to the aid-giving country.......talk about the tail wagging the dog......

p.s. i'll take care of micronesia and marshall islands, if you can take care of usa (i belive tuvalu is about to disappear as an island, due to the rising tide)....

..otherwise, i am afraid, we are all headed for a catastrophe......
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#52 Posted by hamidm2 on January 19, 2008 6:48:30 am
Re: # 50

romair mian,

.... you are clueless as usual - the us does not have any restrictions against dual citizenship .......

.... in any case, like i said before, the us cannot afford to trust the muslims - nobody can ..... israel is a shining beacon in that wasteland known as the middle east and hopefully, inshallah, kurdistan will be the next one .....
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#53 Posted by shankar on January 19, 2008 7:16:41 am
Has anybody considered what could happen to Pakistan if they told the US to f off?! "Bombing into the stone age" is only a last option.

-the US could cut off all aid (1 billion a yr is a huge chunk of change,esp if most of it goes to the military).

-the US could impose a trade embargo. Iran & Saddam can afford an embargo because they have oil revenues. Pakistan doesn't.

-the US could ally themselves with India. India is one of the few countries in the world , opinion polls show, that likes the US.
That would only worsen the sense of insecurity vis a vis India, that is pounded into every Pakistani.

You guys can wring your hands & lament why the US is a bad friend to have. But the US as an enemy will be 10 times worse.

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#54 Posted by Kulharee on January 19, 2008 7:16:48 am
RE # 17 Masadi, your BS is so consistent and analogous no matter in which board you write. It’s like if you have read you once, you have read you all. You are the biggest insipid joker on this website.
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#55 Posted by hamidm2 on January 19, 2008 7:24:16 am
Re: # 53

shankar mian,

......... a whore does not have any friends - good or bad
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#56 Posted by bulleya on January 19, 2008 7:42:35 am
shankar #: "You guys can wring your hands & lament why the US is a bad friend to have. But the US as an enemy will be 10 times worse."

the usa could do the same to india also.....the indian IT industry would crash if the usa stopped giving contracts to india.......as would various other industries in india.....it can also bomb india into the stone age.....it can do so to most countries.....

.......all the aid pakistan has taken from other countries has resulted in nothing but a huge national debt.....

anyways, no one is saying that pakistan should become an enemy of usa.....far from it......i am just saying that pakistan should neither be friends nor enemies with the us govt......the dealings should just be between businesses.....

the irani and saudi options are both detrimental to pakistan's future........

actually india has taken on the correct policy vis-a-vis usa (and israel and palestine).....
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#57 Posted by Eklavya on January 19, 2008 8:32:18 am
"the us cannot afford to trust the muslims"

hamidm sahib, let's not put it that way. What is clear as daylight is that the era of trusting others is totally over. Trust was a temporarly liberal delusion hatched in Europe until they learnt about the real world.
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#58 Posted by tahir on January 19, 2008 8:42:46 am
Re: # 7

Hewlett Packard, you said:

Now the question is: if they knew Bait ullah Mehsod did it only a few hours after the incident, then I am sure they must be keeping tabs on Mehsod’s whereabouts and conversations way before the murder.

I say:

You've brilliantly answered the question yourself. Congrats!

Where is OBL? Nowhere I guess. BB told David Frost that 'OBL was murdered'. Baitullah is the new enemey now.

If I cried and you lent me some tissue paper (Kleenex, for the US-settled), you'd be marked as a sympathiser too, with consequences of course!

News, or rather propaganda, is intentionally leaked out to the esteemed (!?) leaders of the print media. I only read Between-The-Lines-Times published by umm...umm...aaa...arrr...

Cocaine Cola, enjoy!

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#59 Posted by masadi on January 19, 2008 9:28:05 am
hamid writes ".... my grandma (god bless her soul) used to say that during the british raj atta was a rupee a maund and there was plenty of it ..... there was rule of the white man's law and god stayed in heaven minding his own business "

It seems to run in the family. Your grandma was just as idiotic as you are. Did you forget about the man made famines by the British that killed millions. Further, have you forgotten how they pushed back India by a century and treating the "coloreds" as unequal vermin the effects of which we face today. And they did all this to keep the price of wheat stable? You hamid have a slave mentality and are a son of slaves the kind that are happy in their enslavement.

One thing I will give you, atleast you are upfront about these feelings of worship you have about the white man. Tahmed on the other hand has even more intense feelings than you about the superiority of the white man and his shit but he masks that in his fake "care for the Pakistani people". May God damn both of you, him a little more than you because he is a snake and a back stabbing hypocrite.

Kulharee: I see you are all sobered up now, last night you werent able to put a sentence together and were lost between threads, then you have the audacity of talking about my posts, the ones you cannot even touch based on your dimwitted intellect...
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#60 Posted by Pardesi on January 19, 2008 9:47:35 am
Can Pakistan afford to say f-off to USA?

Yes, USA will love to leave her, or any one else, alone if Pakistanis:

- dont provide training facilities to potential Jihadis
- clear sanctuaries for troublemakers (e.g., wazirstan, “moral and diplomatic support�)
- protect their bums and do not sell it to other states. In other words, be responsible.

Until then, Pakistan will be either on short leash or an enemy state. Nothing in between.
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#61 Posted by arjun_4 on January 19, 2008 9:52:24 am
#56 Posted by bulleya on January 19, 2008 7:42:35 am


the usa could do the same to india also


The USA could do the same to britain too..or france..or italy..alabama too..

but it is going to?

nope...

it's just pakis who're going to be threatened by a bombing-into-the-stone-age phone call to bomb and kill their own people...
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#62 Posted by arjun_4 on January 19, 2008 9:54:49 am
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#63 Posted by anil on January 19, 2008 10:28:08 am
Re: # 59

Massaddi Mian:

"...Your grandma was just as idiotic as you are..."

You shamelessly cross limits. It is sad and pathetic.
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#64 Posted by masadi on January 19, 2008 10:43:32 am
anil writes "You shamelessly cross limits. It is sad and pathetic"

Anil you need to think before you blurt out absurdities. The guy is condemning millions to slavery and justifying the butchering of millions of Iraqis, not to mention what the US has done particularly since the early 1980s to Pakistan that involves hundreds of millions of people, and the fool is justifying all of that using his grandma. So if I call her idiotic how does it compare to what he is justifying above, and so what if I call her idiotic. I know you are not in the habit of thinking but think hard about it
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#65 Posted by ahmedmadani on January 19, 2008 11:00:04 am
Re: # 63 Anil ... Tehmad and Hamid are doing all this purposely to provoke. Its not innocent way but deliberate and wrong. It is same as some people use to use Gandhi and jinna to provoke YLH and then just just enjoy mud sliding. Many mortals are here just for "fun".
I suggest masadi also to just ignore provocative write up which advocates slavery and other advocates drinking alcohol and be happy. We can not fathom what enjoy in glory of slave mentality and glory of alcohol. He knows alcohol is bad still he advocates alcohol as relaxation and refreshment for for soul and shaitan has enterd their minds. So best is leave them and let them think and pray and heavely forces will mend them but I do not have big hope , both are old and they say all this going in their mind is just repentance for their misspent youthful days and mature days and now just they are getting old and restless souls and poor lost and worried about future retirement where usa elites do not give damn to old people and they treat as just useless old folks. I will let them be happy in their second child hood and silly ways.
I wish good luck for both of them. In usa once you cross 45 you have no value , it is sad situation there and depression is driving crazy many people in usa, uk, japan and west europe.
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#66 Posted by masadi on January 19, 2008 11:25:48 am
Note part of my post made on the Dalrymple thread on Jan 12
http://chowk.com/interacts/13401/1/0/224#355946

#83 Posted by masadi on January 12, 2008 1:14:16 pm
Regarding US involvement in the BB case, it is no stretch of the imagination to note that the US has always supported the military and the dictators it throws up in Pakistan. In fact so close is the relationship that Pakistan Army, totally alien to the Pakistanis, is a foreign occupation force doing the bidding of the US to the extreme deteriment of Pakistan. The the "deal" involving the dominant and lesser institutions, the military and the political would enhance the status quo (strengthen the dominant institution) and not "democracy" should be no surprise to any thinking person, that is why the US was pushing for the "deal", first and foremost to salvage the uniform and military from Musharraf, which was achieved after much bloodletting and lathi charge and emergency, and later to pave the way for a new military takeover to overcome the "love lost" of the earlier (1999) one. This second part of the deal was what the BB was beginning to understand and coming around, and so the "deal or no deal" was turning out to be a no-deal. That is why the US found it quite convenient, using the Pakistan Army (with whom it had a dual fulfillment of purpose in this) to get rid of the BB. A fake will was drawn, with full consultations with Zardari, in which he would be the default chair of the PPP, and the deal gone bad would then pursue smoothly. He also had a hand in this murder working with the Army/US. The party has been hijacked by a total outsider to the cause of the ZAB, and it was achieved quite painlessly by colluding in the killing of the BB by the US/Army/Zardari trio.
---------------

A full day after I wrote this Fatima Bhutto hinted at the fake will in this news report

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/world-news/fatima-bhutto-breaks-he r-silence-questions-benazirs-will-bilawal-being-the-ppp-chief_10012733.html

F atima Bhutto breaks her silence, questions Benazirs will, Bilawal being the PPP chief
January 13th, 2008

----


I must be a goddamned genius!
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#67 Posted by masadi on January 19, 2008 11:27:45 am
Ahmadmadni writes "where usa elites do not give damn to old people and they treat as just useless old folks."

Old people are totally missing or totally devalued in US popular culture. You my friend are a genius!
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#68 Posted by masadi on January 19, 2008 11:56:19 am
In addition to #67 let me add that ageism, just like sexism, racism, ethnic bigotry and militarism is rampant in this cesspool, if there ever was a visible belly of shaitan that all can see it is this country crisscrossed by a matrix of rules and regulations punishing the little man yet parading itself as an "open society"

Those of you who can save yourself from this trap of fakery and lies, meaningless existence in the belly of the beast, don't miss the opportunity, return to the homeland....
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#69 Posted by masadi on January 19, 2008 11:57:51 am
You can thank me for the advice later, save yourselves first...
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#70 Posted by chaltahai on January 19, 2008 12:29:05 pm
Masadi did you get strip searched when you were kicked out out fo the US? :)

SO the US played with the lives of the pakistanis...pakistanis played with the lives of afghanis and indian kashmiris for a long time..grow up..this is the real world. The biggest mistake the jhad chanda box fillers made was thinking that their supported would remain in the protracted areas of conflict. A grave mistake...since that fateful day of 9?11, every center of muslim power is reeling...and it is their own damn fault.
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#71 Posted by masadi on January 19, 2008 12:41:12 pm
Chalta writes "since that fateful day of 9?11, every center of muslim power is reeling...and it is their own damn fault. "

I have been given good advice not to respond to intellectual inferiors and dimwits that just throw words out that make zero sense. Let me ignore that advice here for a little bit. I was never ever thrown out of the US, and a contrived "farce" contrived by the US elite to get a new war without end going using a new "pearl harbor" in which they were complacent, indirectly at the very least, can never be described as the fault of the Muslims, and no "center of Muslim power" is reeling, all those "centers" if you read your history were coopted long before 9/11 or were non existant to start with. The biggest mistake of the "chanda box fillers" was to be used as scapegoat by the US and its occupation force because of lack of education and being monkeys whose strings are easily manuvered for all kinds of perversions. Now go run off you idiot...
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#72 Posted by hamidm2 on January 19, 2008 12:43:07 pm
Re: # 68

masadi,

...... you fool ! ....... aarp is the most powerful lobby in the us and we old folks control most of the money as well ..... if you are not careful, we will come after you with our beer bellys, flamingo legs, saggy mammaries and wrinkled gonads .... now, you don't want some eighty year old granny whipping you with a wet noodle, do you? ......... but knowing you, you will probably enjoy it - pervert !

........ but seriously, you need to get over it - there are many people who can't make it in this land of opportunity ... there is no shame in sleeping under a bridge and living off government cheese if you like the great outdoors and dairy products ...... be happy where you are ...... being a born whiner, i am sure you are making people around you in pakistan miserable as well ..... stop it before they kick you out too .......where will you go then ?

........ by the way, how do you think the us elite is behind the atta, chini, electricity and gas crisis ? ... do you think mossad has a hand in it?
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#73 Posted by philosopher on January 19, 2008 12:50:19 pm
Man 'marries' bitch to beat curse

The "bride" wore a sari and a garland.









Enlarge Image

An Indian man has "married" a female dog, hoping the move will help atone for stoning two other dogs to death.
P Selvakumar, 33, said he had been cursed since the killings, suffering paralysis and a loss of hearing.

The wedding took place at a Hindu temple in Tamil Nadu state. The "bride" wore an orange sari with a flower garland and was fed a bun to celebrate.

Superstitious people in rural India sometimes organise weddings to animals in the hope of warding off curses.

'Tried every cure'

Crowds cheered the newly-weds at the end of the ceremony in Sivaganga district, about 50km (30 miles) east of the city of Madurai.

The "bride", who is called Selvi, was led to the temple in Manamudurai wearing a sari before vows were exchanged in a traditional Hindu ceremony.

A relative of the groom who attended the wedding said he hoped Mr Selvakumar would now be cured.

"Fifteen years back Selvakumar was physically fit. But, once he attacked a pair of dogs and thereafter Kumar could not move his limbs freely," the relative, Ramu, told the BBC.

"He tried every cure for his ailment but could not be rid of his disability.

"On the advice of an astrologer and others, he decided to marry a bitch to get cured. Then we arranged Selvakumar's marriage with a bitch."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7093422.stm

Here is the video link.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOkIL3mC5NI

P.S. gao-muttar cola is being served to all the guests and the special dish for vegetarians is gao-goaber bhaaji.
Gao knows better.

anil, mohar, arjun..fast...join the party.







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#74 Posted by philosopher on January 19, 2008 12:53:42 pm


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#75 Posted by philosopher on January 19, 2008 12:54:34 pm
=== Interact Filtered ===
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#76 Posted by philosopher on January 19, 2008 12:56:50 pm
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#77 Posted by masadi on January 19, 2008 12:59:36 pm
hamid writes "...... you fool ! ....... aarp is the most powerful lobby in the us and we old folks control most of the money as well ..... "

Nonsense as usual, AARP represents a small proportion of the over 50 population in the US, and some of the rich old white males might control a lot of wealth, that is not the case with the vast majority that can no longer work. It is this parallel with racism, that suicide for blacks peaks among young men (when they are rejected by the system) and that for white males when the reach the over 50 age (when they are rejected by the system), and the fact that old people not only are missing from popular culture but are mainly reflected by it based on negative stereotypes that we see how poorly the old are valued in this system.

For actual facts and figures, I will spare you the copy paste, you can read them here
http://seniorjournal.com/NEWS/Politics/5-12-19-AgeDiscrimination.htm

Where it comes to ending ageism, AARP stands for shit in the USA.
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#78 Posted by masadi on January 19, 2008 1:02:45 pm
hamid writes "........ by the way, how do you think the us elite is behind the atta, chini, electricity and gas crisis ? ... do you think mossad has a hand in it? "

You remain an idiot don't you. If you are so naive to believe that the political environment of Pakistan and its policies have nothing to do with its economy then you can believe in any cock and bull micro-tales of why foodstuff is mismanaged and blame the shopkeeper and what not. Those who are educated know that it's the POLITICAL-economy stupid and where the US relationship with the country is based on mass looting and handing over the reins of the country to thugs you can sure as hell lay the blame on them...and your grandma cannot rescue you from this one
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#79 Posted by masadi on January 19, 2008 1:04:36 pm
philosopher "An Indian man has "married" a female dog, hoping the move will help atone for stoning two other dogs to death."

That is old news, several months old....
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#80 Posted by shankar on January 19, 2008 2:11:38 pm
Romair,
re #56

India isnt harboring AlQeeda & Taleban leaders. Pakistan is. Pakistan is involved, how the heck can you be "neutral"?!

If Pakistan says, we dont want to be involved, the US will have no choice but to comit their troops into Pakistan.

Just how the heck are you going to sell "neutrality" to the yanks?

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#81 Posted by masadi on January 19, 2008 2:45:38 pm
shankar writes "
India isnt harboring AlQeeda & Taleban leaders. Pakistan is. Pakistan is involved, how the heck can you be "neutral"?!"

Wrong. Pakistan isn't harboring anyone, it was FORCED to harbor them to begin with by the US and its occupation force and then to control the fallout from that mess. Everywhere the US wants to take its dirt like Iraq, Iran etc becomes a harboring place for "Al Qaeda and the Taliban", quite convenient I would say. On the other hand India harbors terrorists from neighbouring countries like Sri Lanka, Nepal, Pakistan etc, not to mention the ethnic/regional dirt going on within the country....not to mention those that marry bitches and trees and other such perverts....
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#82 Posted by mohar11 on January 19, 2008 5:19:08 pm
philo
[... man marries female dog...]

you shouldn't be surprised - because you yourself are the product of exactly similar unholy union... ha ha...

You pakis are too easy... Now - go ahead flag this post...
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#83 Posted by masadi on January 19, 2008 6:00:28 pm
mohar writes "you pakis are too easy...."

And you, whoever the F you are are too damn stupid. An Indian Hindu marries a real live bitch (not of the Hillary Clinton variet but the woof woof variety) and somehow that gets translated to "Pakis" being the product of that union. What kind of perverted logic are you using?
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#84 Posted by zeemax on January 19, 2008 6:33:17 pm
philosopher,

Qibla-o-Kaaba, kauransh baja lata hoon. Kahan thai aap itney roz-o-shab?
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#85 Posted by ahmedmadani on January 19, 2008 7:34:48 pm
Re: # 67 Thanks mr.masadi for your appreciation.
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#86 Posted by ahmedmadani on January 19, 2008 7:43:11 pm
Re: # 82 Mr. Mohor I will suggest you to behave as a gentleman and do not misuse this medium for propaganda. Many ago years ago things were bad really bad in India. A pakistani young women will admonish a child who do not want to eat roti. You should eat it , and children from india are starving remember they do not have no food/ roti to eat. Then she will threaten should bring and show you picture of starving indian boy and that will do good trick. But I did not like that thing as cultured people do not want this type of stuff. India is strange place, please do not hide indians are electing godless communists in many states year after years. I think you do not need proof to show there is mental problem of socialism in India.
Anyway I wish you good luck and good luck for you indians. Please go away in peace and become cultured when you interact with men and gentlemen and ladies here.
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#87 Posted by masadi on January 19, 2008 7:53:48 pm
By the way, in addition to #66, the fake will and the Army/US/Zardari trio, according to Newsweek the first person Rice calls after the assassination is .... yes you guessed it, Zardari...
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#88 Posted by masadi on January 19, 2008 8:01:50 pm
With the prime intention I might add, as the article says, of picking a successor... the will comes later to the forefront
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#89 Posted by dost_mittar on January 19, 2008 8:11:39 pm
bulleya#51:

"......and pakistanis can fo back to fighting indians and live happily ever after......"

Though said in jest, your comment shows that Pakistanis have not yet realised that their obsession with "fighting Indians" is the root cause of the mess that Pakistan is in now. It was this obsession of fighting a country seven times your size that made you enter into pacts like Seato, Cento, etc., give your army undue weight and let it control your country, it was this obsession which made your educationists introduce the so-called "k for kafir" education, it was this obsession which made your army make jihad and not patriotism the motivator for fighting, it was this obsession which had ZAB declare that you would eat grass for a thousand years but make an atomic bomb, it was this obsession that made you go for that disastrous strategic depth in Afghanistan and it was this obsession that made you create the jihadi infrastructure for bleeding India and even embrace hardened terrorists from the hijacked plane and let one of them, Masood Azhar, start the jehadi outfit, Jaish-e-Mohammad and took another, Sheikh Omar, under ISI wing, only to see him murder Danier Pearl and perhaps send funds for the 9/11 bombings.
It is time to give up that obsession for fighting the Indians. Most Pakistanis seem to have realised it; Wasim Akram helped Indian win the cricket match against Australia by coaching Pathan and Rauf by replacing umpire Bucknor; it's time hardened chowkies should do the same.:)
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#90 Posted by mohar11 on January 19, 2008 8:12:18 pm
Mad-ani

What "culture" ? whoever heard of a thing called "paki culture"... you pakis f888 a goat as a "right of passage", or so we have heard... doing young boys is a big thing peshawar... so spare us the lecture... :)
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#91 Posted by ahmedmadani on January 19, 2008 8:28:40 pm
Re: # 88 Masadi sAHIB ... i JUST CAN NOT IMAGINE mR.zARDARI was involved. As her husband and father of their 3 children it is IMPOSSIBLE. Also for love of her wife he spent 6 years in prison and could have gone out by making deal like NS and company. It was not fun in Prison as they almost killed him, but they saved him as they did not wanted blood of another Sindhi. USA will not get involved in killing ex PM as she was pushing agenda of president bush as american backed leader like Shah of Iran.
Hope you will agree to disagree
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#92 Posted by masadi on January 19, 2008 8:31:40 pm
dost writes "Though said in jest, your comment shows that Pakistanis have not yet realised that their obsession with "fighting Indians" is the root cause of the mess that Pakistan"

That is certainly not a one way street as you are putting it. You cannot just get rid of the entire catastrophie of the partition and the playing of one side against the other. The Muslims of India still suffer from its effects. When the entire legitimacy of the leadership on the smaller side was built upon exploiting and making real the farce of the two nation bit, just like the legitimacy of the Pak Army in Pakistani politics is based on doing America's dirty work and inflating the "terror threat"- The obsession to fight each other was certainly a two way street but unequal opponents would produce different reactions, events made it real, used by the Pak Army to manipulate the people while it carries on with its role as the US occupation force...
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#93 Posted by masadi on January 19, 2008 8:36:54 pm
#91 Mr madani Zardari was no saint for you to conclude using subjective "emotive" reasons that he could not be involved. Where was he when the US sent her to get killed in Pakistan, never by her side, unknown to the PPP and yet he has very conveniently assumed leadership of the party. The Army would not have dared to get rid of the BB were the Americans on her side at the end, it's like getting rid of Negroponte when he visited Musharraf with a final ultimatum and if they had dared done that you can bet the reaction would not have been as lukewarm as the American reaction to the assassination of the BB
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#94 Posted by FakirIppi on January 19, 2008 10:32:30 pm
Re: # 50 Mr Bulleya . I will brush up your knowledge for your future guidance.

I attended DAVOS Summit of 2002 and saw on the directory of participants that Shaukat Aziz then Finance Minister of Pakistan's nationality as USA.

The Pakistani law stated till 2002 that Dual Citizens could not be holders of public office.The usurper Musharraf modified it vide an ordnance allowing dual citizens to have dual nationality.100 % sure that Shaukat Aziz and Soomro Chairman Senate are US citizens.

I am on way to DAVOS now and will again confirm this.
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#95 Posted by zeemax on January 19, 2008 11:13:08 pm
#86 Posted by ahmedmadani,

Madani Saheb,

When you get upset at hindoos, please understand that these are just migrant field-mice getting trampled in the battle between elephants.

Ignore them. They don't count in the global games being played.
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#96 Posted by zeemax on January 19, 2008 11:24:40 pm
#89 Posted by dost_mittar,

Though this post is addressed to bulleya, allow me to give my take.

Pakistan never wanted to fight India right from the outset. Jinnah actually believed he could still commute between his home in Karachi and the one in Bombay as casually as he did before partition. It was the animosity shown by the Indians after partition towards existence of the Pakistani State, plus the unwarranted and traumatic exchange of populations which made the two enemies. After that, it was a question of survival for the new born State of Pakistan, so it took on the weak man's tactic - aggression is the best defense. Jaish and all (the shadow wars) came as a natural consequence towards neutralizing a much bigger foe.

I'm afraid Indians have as much to blame for that as Pakistanis.

But, I believe if Indians accept the reality which is Pakistan, and stop maligning it all the time (as you see on Chowk, even though it may not be completely representative), things are still not that bad between the neighbours.
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#97 Posted by jayp on January 20, 2008 1:08:08 am
Pirzada mian,

It is not the US trying to destabilize pakistan, it is the conflict of civilisations and the battle ground is pakistan.

The epitome of technological western civilisation and its dominance over the others is the bomb. The bomb can only be controlled by a society that subscribe to the western values, read democracy. That is why the US sent Benzir, that is why they eant democracy in pakistan.

At present pakistan is in a jihadic grip, and what you see there taking place is teh clash of civilisations.

There can be two solutions.

One is pakistan will be denuked, that is looking more likely.

The other is jihadis will be wiped out, that is unlikely, there more than 5 million madrassa products, the pak army is infested.

I put my bet on denuking of pakistan.
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#98 Posted by jayp on January 20, 2008 1:16:32 am
Importance of pakistan,

At present the only global interest in pakistan is due to the bomb, and it falling into jihadic hands.

The pakistanis can cry from every roof top to let them be alone, for the americans to leave them alone. No one will listen simply because of the bomb. Now with the routing of the military in Swat, military will get increased support, the so called democracy will be sham, military will become more powerful.

The only option for pakistan are

...the North korean option which is looking more likely. Food shortage..fuel shortage..declining income..crime..

Then there is the Libiyan option..very unlikely because pakistan has already move along the north korean path.

Energy crisis, declining exports..declining industrial production due to electrcity shortage....

May be ZAB was right, he missied the sequence..first pakistan will have teh bomb,,due to which they will eat grass.

Thanks dost-mitter for reminding this
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#99 Posted by zeemax on January 20, 2008 1:18:26 am
#97 Posted by jayp,

One must make a distinction between the Jihadis who have a global agenda, and those who have a domestic agenda. The former are the Arab/Turkic fighters (aka Al-Qaida for you - Egyptians, Moroccans, Algerians, Saudis, Uzbeks), and the latter Taliban (whether Afghan or Pakistani). There's nothing common between these two except logistical support in the face of immense military pressure.

If you don't know the difference between the two, you should be on FOX TV or for dinner at hamidm2's house.
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#100 Posted by rf786 on January 20, 2008 1:41:55 am
Re: # 89

d_m

The so-called Indian obsession was manufactured by the power elite to support and sustain their monoply over ideology, politics, economics and the use of violence. We allowed East Pakistan to fade way into history with no remorse or accountability simply under the much hyped Indian hyperbole. I agree, enough is enough, Pakistanis need to move forward, but how? Another re-engineering of ideologies? How can we expect any change when the same coterie of power remains comfortably placed to manipulate and direct. Pakistan needs something more than just a change of slogans, or change of guards. Pakistan needs rule of law, independence of executive and judiciary, more provincial autonomy and some serious yet honest assessment of the future relationships between provnices.
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#101 Posted by rf786 on January 20, 2008 1:56:50 am
Re: # 97
jayp,

There is a third option, redraw the map.

Companies stuck with their obsolete ideas of management are either taken over or end up applying for bankruptcy protection. Whatever the case maybe, in most of the cases, these companies are broken up into separate units and sold to generate cash. Point being, sometimes companies are worth more as separate entities.

The same analogy can be applied to a country like Pakistan, a country with much promised growth potential, right asset base, receieved many cash injections, different styles of management were tried but nothing seems to work. Instead of adding value, this company has been a destroyer of capital. Assuming confidence reaches to the point of no return, then dissolution may just be the only remedy.

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#102 Posted by Sanatani on January 20, 2008 2:54:59 am
Zee Bhaiya,

Actuallu it should be Anuj or Tambi (for younger brother). Here is my do anna worth.
When a committed Hindutwavadi like me (who is not anti muslim but avowedly anti islamic) can have a lot of affection for you based on a common Punjabi ethnicity and can feel th apin for fellow Punjabis killed on May 12 despite Sheikhupura, Mianwali, Rawalpindi and Jhelum in 1947
then what is this talk of anti Pak hostility endengered by India. If we take a small example of the number of abducted Hindu/Sikh women returned by Pak in 47 as comapred to Muslim women returned by India would give yuou a very good idea of who was the aggressor.

Your idea of history is foundation stone of Pak in AD 711 till 1857 then a ceaseless struggle for eatablishing a Muslim state in India for 90 yrs culminating in Pak in 1947.

Grow up. We may have been decieved by that mutar fakeer Madardas Gandhu in 47 not anymore. The day you will face Narendrabhai in Delhi tum logon ko apne mard hone ki khush fehmi door ho jaige.

Written with love not hatred.

Regards
Sanatani

Your thr8 is Salim Chauhan and the Muhajirs not this descendant of Punabi Sharanarthis and believe me the fact that men of distant provinces of India in the South Potti Srimalu and Pittabhai Sitaramayya from Andhra, Morarji Bhai (Nishan-e-Pakistan)of Gujarat and BP Chahila of Asom were so vehement in their denounciation of anybody who would call us a refugee that a lot of sting was taken out of the holocaust of partition.



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#103 Posted by zeemax on January 20, 2008 3:15:53 am
#102 Posted by Sanatani,

Sanatani Bhra,

I share your sentiments, even though you are 'ant-Islamic'.

But instead of venting your anger at me (I was talking about neighbours) you should read #101. This guy is talking about 'Jinnahpur'.

Will you help him make one?
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#104 Posted by rf786 on January 20, 2008 3:31:27 am
Re: # 103

{Sanatani Bhra,

I share your sentiments, even though you are 'ant-Islamic'.

But instead of venting your anger at me (I was talking about neighbours) you should read #101. This guy is talking about 'Jinnahpur'.}

Just another example of pure Punjabi chauvinism that can transcend and cut through religious lines. Nothing wrong with that concept, but becomes filthy when it is either camouflaged in the name of religion or presented by this hypocrite.
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#105 Posted by anil on January 20, 2008 4:00:11 am
Re: # 95

Zeemax sahib:

"...Ignore them. They don't count in the global games being played. ..."

This is the most accurate statement on this board.

Instability in Pakistan has historically come from living beyond its means and having ambitions which cannot be sustained. Consequently, Pakistan has constantly experimented. It failed to define its growth poles and basis of a strong identity that went beyond religion.

Pakistan's history can be summarized in three phases: (i) there was a period when the Civilian government exploited religion, (ii) later Military government exploited it, and now (iii) it is being exploited by people whom you would not let you be ruled, under normal circumstances.

Your support is on the ground of "my enemy's enemy is my friend". This only maligns the religion you admire the most. Unfortunately, this alliance of conveniencce is no different than other alliances that previous Civilian and Military governments formed. It opens a trap drop that only sucks your religion more, which in turns makes you angry more and more.

This process then brings the most passionates of the religionists out from all sides. And today's Pakistan suddenly looks as the most favorite battleground for the most passionates.

Not only hindoos have no place, your religion has no place either in it either. Sooner the thinking is revised and energies reapplied from being angry, to preventing all who drag your religion, the better you will be.

Above all, only then real issues will come out of the religious cloud to deal with. Till then you, through making religion the issue through people whom you would not let you rule, are a pawn controlled by those whom you perceive as the enemy. More talk of religion only plays in your perceived enemy hands.
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#106 Posted by Pew_Research on January 20, 2008 5:02:23 am
Re: # 89 Dost-Mittar

"...Though said in jest, your comment shows that Pakistanis have not yet realised that their obsession with "fighting Indians" is the root cause of the mess that Pakistan is in now..."

Dost Mamaji:

Why waste your precious breath by stating the obvious to the obdurate? Why not, instead, take faith in the principle of self-accountability? Let me explain: Let the Pakis do what the want because, ultimately, they are accountable to themselves. They can't hurt India. Despite going blue in the face and spiting themselves, they have not been able to stop double-digit growth rates! Let the party go on.

The wise sage of Omaha, Warren Buffet, once said: It is only when the tide goes out do you find out who is swimming naked. Well, the tide has been ebbing for Pakistan for a long time. The first time they were caught swimming naked was on December 16, 1971. The ebbing tide has gathered pace in recent years.

So, why waste your precious breath?
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#107 Posted by hamidm2 on January 20, 2008 5:21:36 am
al-lah's warriors

DERA ISMAIL KHAN: Security officials in the NWFP said on Saturday they had arrested a teenager allegedly involved in last month’s assassination of former premier Benazir Bhutto, reported AP.

Aitezaz Shah, 15, told investigators that he had been part of a five-man squad deployed that day in Rawalpindi, a senior intelligence official, asking not to be named, said.

....... and guess what ? ... the lal masjid ninja chicks with sticks who were allowed to walk out of there are breeding more of these demonic warriors .....
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#108 Posted by zeemax on January 20, 2008 5:22:56 am
#105 Posted by anil,

Anil Saheb, first of all, without going into the other stuff ... I do not believe anyone exploited Islam for their own ends ... ever. If anyone tried, they didn't succeed. So we have a no-starter here.

Re my statement "...Ignore them. They don't count in the global games being played. ..." It is indeed accurate. As I said, these are just field mice being trampled in a battle of elephants.

No contempt meant by the above of-course. It is just that India or Hindus have never been global players on their own unless they were ruled by either the Muslims or the Brits.

Re "Your support is on the ground of "my enemy's enemy is my friend", I guess you mean my exchange with Sanatani.

My friend, I like Sanatani because he is 'honest', not because he may be a Punjabi or anything else. I believe he is the only hindu on these boards who argues his enmity without insults and needless jokes upon his opponents as other Indians do. I respect that.

A wise enemy is better than a foolish friend anytime.
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#109 Posted by hamidm2 on January 20, 2008 5:48:21 am
Re: # 108

zeemax,

.... i don't know what you mean by the horrible hindoos not being 'global players' .... as far as the business world is concerned they seem to to be everywhere - you can't turn a corner in a corporate corridor in detroit without bumping into a head wagger carrying auto parts in his dhoti ...... and let's not even talk about it - most companys specify a 60+% hindoo content in their rfq's ..... the smell of curry is stinking up the cafeterias at chrysler, ford and gm and you see civilized white people eating with their fingers like a bunch of heathens ...... and if that wasn't bad enough, i recently checked out yoga classes to see if i could communicate with grandpa gopinath and found the class full of masadi's us elite ...

...... but there is good news for our people too - we haven't had anyone charged with trying to blow up the gm building in the last six months ...........
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#110 Posted by mohar11 on January 20, 2008 5:52:21 am
zee

you keep saying "indians never were global players"... that's not true... Indians were playing the "globe" when bedouins were still swinging from the tree, so to speak...

Entire south-east asia was under indian influence, which is why the area is also known as indo-china... and the largest country there is called indonesia - it still has wide indian cultural influence, even though recent islamic surge is spreading now. The largest temple ever built is actually in cambodia.
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#111 Posted by mohar11 on January 20, 2008 6:01:42 am
PS: But that's really ancient history...

if you look at the current events, indian presence is spreading fast, particularly in the business world. But yes, in political world, india is not playing big, but that may be a matter of time...
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#112 Posted by arjun_5 on January 20, 2008 6:10:44 am
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#113 Posted by ahmedmadani on January 20, 2008 6:57:22 am
Re: # 111 Mr.Zeemax is right in importance of things of India. India is marginal player in car making. Now nano car business may hit good success as poor indians need some safe "PLATFORM". Please note I say "platform" not car it is basically a bullock cart and instead of bullocks they have some weak crapy engine with power of 33 horses. In Karachi some time ago a car mechanics did same stuff and was fine. But advanced tansport system here will not allow a platform run at 60 miles max ( in theory) in motorways where speed really higher ( over 160 km/hour) is common though illeagal. This Nano will fly way when it tries to go on Motorways. This roads are not crapy roads like India designed for mixed mode like bullock carts and men sitting on donkeys and indian trucks roaring at 15 KM/hour, even indian donkeys and bullocks better than crappy 15km/hour national average speed. Now one has to understand poverty of India is to forgive them , they are finding "local solutions". Nano will never have demand as even if in right lane pakistani cars will over run such slow bullock cart like platform. Also Indians are underweight people so they can carry this family of 5 with underweight man and wife and children. Compared to Indian family health and weight and size( more than 5 to six children) of pakistani family is robust and hefty so 3o horses can not pull all stuff at 60 mph, the motor will burn. Any way its funny as if you take opium worth 50 rupees you get wonderful crazy ideas.Now this company is building plant on blood of poor farmers and this company has hired communist party and govt of communists to make conditions following their mentors in China. They are killing people so land can be given to tata company for free. ONLY GOOD PART IS IT EXPOSED INDIAN STUPIDITY , THEY ARE FIRST IN WORLD TO ELECT DEMOCRATICALLY GODLESS COMMUNISTS FOR 50 YEARS , LET US PRAY GEORGE BUSH NOTES THIS FACT.
Now Indians have kind of lost mental balance and they are conspiring to take over Juguar and landrover a great English co. Now people who buy this cars are not dirt poor Indians which look at Nano as gods chariot. No rich from white real foreign person will touch a luxury car with Eight 8 cylinders made by Indians. They have image problem as they used "gandhi" as publicity stunt. Hope they understand difference between nano silly stuff and landrover is more like miserable gandhi and suit boot wearing Jinnah. My feeling is indians will loose big money in landrover as people will not like to drive car with owners in India.
Softwere is ok , no body bothers how and where it was made as name carried is microsoft company counts. Indians are biting too big to chew. But also british are miserable people to give and allow Indians to be arrogent owners of british symbols. Britain is going to dogs , they are shameless people, thier queren was empress and Kaiser E Hind and how much english people have come down. Shame on them to surrender to indians and beg to be bought by communist company from India. Good night.
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#114 Posted by ahmedmadani on January 20, 2008 7:10:48 am
Re: # 113 Now rich white or even brown dark people buy Landrover or Juguar do not buy for transportation , that can be done cheaply by japan and korea car. THis rich people buy this overpriced stuff to make a statement , they are rich and do not care about money, it is same as drinking Chivas regal when local brew at 1/200 price can also shoot you to stars as rocket faster and quicker. People drink ordinary stuff but they claim to drink british wisky from scottlands for status. Same way these car are symbols to state we are not ordinary no nothing people. No rich man will like to pay that type of money for car made in India. May be indians should have consulted managemet dept at Lahore.
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#115 Posted by ahmedmadani on January 20, 2008 7:12:51 am
Re: # 109
What is "RFQ" ? thanks in advance
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#116 Posted by SR on January 20, 2008 7:18:22 am
Re: # 50 bulleya writes:["... more than likely, these, "bankers" carry a Pakistani passport with a US green card ..."]

Actually there is another legal solution which gets you Paki citizenship facilities without giving up the visa-free travel convenience of a North America or European passport.

I carry my US passport and a Paki green card, the one that is actually green in color. I'm talking about the NADRA Pakistani origin card for overseas diaspora. It entitles you to everything that a citizen is in Pakistan (except life, liberty, pursuit of happiness and equity of justice -- but who wants those trivial things any way?), plus you need no visa to enter Pakistan with a foreign passport.

...SR
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#117 Posted by SR on January 20, 2008 7:26:53 am
All the conspiracy lovers are going to love this.

...SR


"...The IMU now is making statements against the Pakistan government according the Adnkronos International, which is an Italian news agency formed in 2003 to report news of the Middle East. The IMUs support for the Red Mosque confirms foreign connections to the Red Mosque terrorists. There are reports that the IMU has been infiltrated by Indian, and anti-Pakistan elements.

Islamic movement of Uzbekistan and Uzbek militants in North Waziristan, Qadri Tahir Yaldeshiv, in a video message, according to Adnkronos International. He also urged Muslims to avenge the Lal Masjid operation in July 2007 that left more than 100 militants and hardcore madrassa students dead, the German news agency said.Yaldshiv also talked about the need for strict Sharia law in Pakistan. “Pakistan came into being in the name of Islam, therefore Islam should be enforced in the country.�

The Uzbek commander is not popular among pro-Taliban militants in North Waziristan. Hundreds of his men were killed early last year in an offensive by local tribal fighters led by Mullah Nazir.

The rivalry was renewed last week when suspected Uzbek militants attacked two pro-Taliban offices in North Waziristan, killing eight. There are reports that local tribesmen have assembled an army of hundreds to avenge the killings.

The government of Pakistan has to discuss the actions of the Uzbek residents with Uzbekistan. This cross-border terrorism should not go unpunished.

For full text read at the link:

http://moinansari.wordpress.com/2008/01/19/the-implications-of-the-islamic-m ovement-of-uzbekistan-threats-to-pakistan-are-thse-threats-real-are-these-threat s-orchestrated-misinformation-to-get-pakistan-to-retaliate-against-the-uzbeks-an d-dis/
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#118 Posted by zeemax on January 20, 2008 8:00:20 am
#111 Posted by mohar11,

if you look at the current events, indian presence is spreading fast, particularly in the business world.

The business world is a house of cards. All it will take is a CDO meltdown for USA to go back to 1929 and take away the world's export market. This is easily foreseen just with a few further shocks after the subprime.

What counts is political domination, and that is the game in which the Indians are nowhere near being players. That's what I meant.
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#119 Posted by hamidm2 on January 20, 2008 8:05:55 am
Re: # 113

ahmedmadani sahib,

.... you have painted very bleak picture of our neighbors - it is this kind of comparison that has given us a little self esteem and hope .... if we started comparing ourselves to real people like the scandinavians or the japanese we would be really depressed!

... anyway, an rfq is a 'request for quotation' .... pakistani madrassas get them from al-qaeda when they are shopping for a suicide bomber .... maybe you can get your friend masadi to respond to one of those .....
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#120 Posted by zeemax on January 20, 2008 8:17:19 am
#109 Posted by hamidm2,

hamidm I guess my #118 answered your question.

However, I look forward to your invitation to 'the Mile' while it lasts.
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#121 Posted by zeemax on January 20, 2008 8:21:35 am
... to further illustrate, it is the Indians who are playing the business game ... while being minuscule in comparison to the Chinese, who while in business, are not playing that game at all. Whatever they're playing is all political.

Money/business etc doesn't matter when you look 50 years ahead.
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#122 Posted by Sanatani on January 20, 2008 8:40:17 am
My friend, I like Sanatani because he is 'honest', not because he may be a Punjabi or anything else. I believe he is the only hindu on these boards who argues his enmity without insults and needless jokes upon his opponents as other Indians do. I respect that.


Oye Paincho oye kanjoor oye malang de tharak de padaish tu macho Puanjabi bhaichara phul reya hai tera maan de teri paan de teri teh di oye kuttya kanjara main tenu vand deya ga. Relax I am adressing the muhajir types. See I have such excellent double standards even if you make a mistake I shall abuse them not bro Punjabis

On another note so long as we can help it we would not like to split Pakistan, but if things get out of hand nuke it (honestly). I mean if we cannot have a friendly neighbour as Pakistan we are not intersted in friendly Sindhudesh and Jinnahpur. Also keep these types with you. We do NOT WANT THEM BACK UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE.

We would love Akhand Bharat if all of you rveretd back to the mother religion but not these types even if they do so.

Please remember May 12 should be avenged. The average Panju in Delhi is so kanjar that he cannot do the same against their cousins, I am hoping the average Panjoo in Lahore is not equally so Kanjar.

Regards
Sanatani
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#123 Posted by Sanatani on January 20, 2008 8:51:56 am
Nobel Prize for Madani Sahib for his eloquent thoughts.

What he has said in 113 is very true. All mussalmanas should say uPar Allah neeche Madani.

300 Cheers for Madani Sahib hip hip Hurray. Tis a pity he is not Hindu then we could say Shree Shree 1007 Madani Sahib Shree Shree 1008 being god.

Sanatani
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#124 Posted by rf786 on January 20, 2008 8:55:01 am
Re: # 114

Dear ahmedmadani sahib,

please, for the sake of your prophet and his resting place, stop embarrassing yourself by making these absurd statements. We should have the grace to acknowledge their success, by doing so we lose nothing but gain another friend.
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#125 Posted by nasah on January 20, 2008 8:56:34 am
Re: # 119

or may be sour grapes? -- to reassure you guys in the areas of your poor self-esteem -- personally I prefer one horse power TaanGa to 30 horse power tumtum.....:)
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#126 Posted by zeemax on January 20, 2008 9:14:30 am
#122 Posted by Sanatani,

if we cannot have a friendly neighbour as Pakistan we are not interested in friendly Sindhudesh and Jinnahpur.

Haha ... that's why I like you. You say it like it is. Maan di bhen di apart :)
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#127 Posted by anil on January 20, 2008 9:28:36 am
Re: # 108

Zeemax Sahib:

In "my enemy's enemy...", the enemy is the U.S. and other Nato countries. Enemy's enemy is who the U.S. etc. are fighting. Sanatani is a non-consequential Hindoo.

Brits and Muslims came to India for reasons. Imeprialism and then colonialism were their reasons for their arrival. If they had not arrived, you would not have happened. India never gave empty coffers to muslim imperialism or to British Colonialists. You may like to believe, Indians before their arrivals were empty beggars. There is a clear difference how Arabs viewed it, and how the Chinese viewed those times in India. Your view may be a reflection of this difference also.

In tomorrow's world, labor, capital and technology move faster than the Islamic sword ever could.

I read an article where Al Gore explained that collective force of Technology today, is as big as forces of nature. Therefore, it would be foolish to underestimate this force of Sanatani knowledge workers.

There can be no doubt in your mind also that Islam has lost this initiative. This cavalry of knowledge worker is more powerful than anything ever produced in the past, be it Islamic or not. Zeemax sahib, please do not live in the past. Cetain followers of your religion are unable to understand the difference and live in Islam's past glory.

Tomorrow's world is not same as the past.

Cavalry of Sanatani like knowledge workers will be no less potent than Islam's cavalry with sword and message thru sufism was. Do not discount and live by the past. Whether, this army conquers world's economy or merely becomes subjugated and hired hand, is something Sanatani & Co has to learn from their history, and not repeat historical mistakes.
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#128 Posted by tahmed32 on January 20, 2008 9:33:58 am
zeemax #118 "What counts is political domination"

"Political domination" means the the ability to control some other nation's (or group's) actions. Thus, the concept is based on a world-view where you are fighting one another. The true frontier lies in the boundaries of mankind's reach - whether the boundary is in the realm of physics or biology or mars exploration or environmental control or any of the various disciplines of knowledge (like archaeology, astrnonomy) or technology (computer sciences, robotics, superconductivity) that empower mankind as a whole.

Who is fighting on the true frontier? the best and the brightest from around the world, working from places likee the US, Europe, Japan.

Who is rushing to join this fight on this true frontier? China, closely followed by India, Brazil and smaller but equally stable and progressive nations.

Who is nipping at the heals of those fighting on the true fronter, or else biting and clawing one another? Those whose "frontier" is much more narrowly defined, being limited to the boundaries of their tribal community, religious group, or at most national boundary. In other words, those who are no different than a pack of wolves who seek domination, follow the "alpha male" (as dictators whether they are in uniform or wearing beards try to portray themselves to be), and are either totally irrelevant to the true struggle that mankind is engaged in or at most (as in case of 9/11 hijackers) have nuisance value that diverts the world attention from the real struggle mankind should be engaged in.

That is profound thought for the day. :-)
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#129 Posted by rf786 on January 20, 2008 10:01:57 am
Re: # 128

Dear tahmed32,

welcome back and very well said.
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#130 Posted by anil on January 20, 2008 10:09:35 am
Re: # 128

Tahmed sahib:

Very well said. There was a special on Technology in India and China in the Economist. This was the title headline of that issue of the Economist cover page. This entire cover page showed Musharraff and prominently displayed "Pakistan as the most dangerous place." If you can get this, please read the entire section on India and China and their race for technology to go to the moon, and why the west should not hinder this competition between the two giants. Other interesting aspects were what these two nations delivered in technology to the world at various times in the past.

I found both the contrast and comparison very apt. Good reading for Hamidm sahib also.
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#131 Posted by hamidm2 on January 20, 2008 10:52:45 am
Re: # 128

tahmed,

.... you are wrong... again ! ......zeemax is right, political domination is all that matters and, as far as the mohammedans are concerned, there is only one domination that counts and that is al-lah's domination on earth ....... as long as there is one infidel, one hindoo, one christian, one parsi, or - god forbid - one jew, left on earth the mission of the prophet (pbuh and his camel) will remain incomplete ........ this is the letter he sent to the negro king of abyssinia and then followed up with letters to other unbelievers :

From Muhammad the Messenger of Allâh to Negus, king of Abyssinia (Ethiopia).
Peace be upon him who follows true guidance. Salutations, I entertain Allah’s praise, there is no God but He, the Sovereign, the Holy, the Source of peace, the Giver of peace, the Guardian of faith, the Preserver of safety. I bear witness that Jesus, the son of Mary, is the spirit of Allâh (Ruh Allah) and His Word which He cast into Mary, the virgin, the good, the pure, so that she conceived Jesus. Allah created him from His spirit and His breathing as He created Adam by His Hand. I call you to Allah Alone with no associate and to His obedience and to follow me and to believe in that which came to me, for I am the Messenger of Allah. I invite you and your men to Allah, the Glorious, the All-Mighty. I hereby bear witness that I have communicated my message and advice. I invite you to listen and accept my advice. Peace be upon him who follows true guidance."

............ this, my latter day prophet friend, this is the true spirit of domination and damned are those who stray from the true path ....... who gives a flip about computer sciences, robotics, superconductivity and other such infidel nonsense when al-lah's kingdom has not been established ......... fool !
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#132 Posted by hamidm2 on January 20, 2008 10:58:02 am
Re: # 130

anil mian,

... and this message is for you .....

"Submit to Islam and be safe. Or agree to the payment of the Jizya, and you and your people will be under our protection, else you will have only yourself to blame for the consequences, for I bring the men who desire death as ardently as you desire life."

.......... please continue to deposit the jizya into my pay-pal account or you will be getting a visit from zeemax .......
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#133 Posted by anil on January 20, 2008 11:30:29 am
Re: # 132

Hamidm sahib:

Where do you find these messages?
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#134 Posted by masadi on January 20, 2008 11:31:03 am
hamid writes "... anyway, an rfq is a 'request for quotation' .... pakistani madrassas get them from al-qaeda when they are shopping for a suicide bomber .... maybe you can get your friend masadi to respond to one of those ..... "

Haram khors like you who have spent their lives chasing a lie and bowing to the white man, who are intellectually and morally bankrupt can only respond with made up BS against people who have totally stumped them with their arguments...keep on at it fool but remember that the shaitan will abandon you at your direst time of need.....now go F yourself...
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#135 Posted by masadi on January 20, 2008 11:36:27 am
tahmed writes "The true frontier lies in the boundaries of mankind's reach - whether the boundary is in the realm of physics or biology or mars exploration or environmental control or any of the various disciplines of knowledge (like archaeology, astrnonomy) or technology (computer sciences, robotics, superconductivity) that empower mankind as a whole."

The snake returns with his worship of the white man with BS rhetoric like the America democracy talk. These things you talk about above do not empower mankind as a whole rather they are used for perverse ends in order to enslave a larger than the past proportion of mankind by a tiny elite that you worship. Science and men of science are in the service of power and militarising all discoveries for the purpose of domination of the many by the few, that these discoveries only later for the purpose nof profit making seep into the consumer arena and even there they serve to dumb down humanity and not empower it in any way whatsoever. Those restoring human dignity and expanding the human mind are those who understand this BS, share it with the rest of humanity and challenge those that are enslaving humanity. In that field, there are many but just one of those with very little reach like myself are expanding the horizons of humanity much more, let me emphasis that much more by a factor of ten, than all the sceintists of China, India, Brazil, US and Europe that are in the service of power, COMBINED.

Now go F yourself......worshipper of the white man's shit....
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#136 Posted by hamidm2 on January 20, 2008 12:42:50 pm
Re: # 133

anil mian,

... just google "muhammad's message to abyssinia" and "khalid walid message to persia" and you can get the text of these historic texts that still warm the cockles of masadi's cold heart ..... look, islam was founded on the principle of world domination and until muslims realize that collecting a nickle from every cup of coffee at a starbucks in every corner of the world is just as good as collecting jiziya from infidels, you guys have to watch out .......
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#137 Posted by hamidm2 on January 20, 2008 12:48:21 pm
Re: # 135

masadi mian,

...... you should really see a shrink ..... just read what you wrote :

"Those restoring human dignity and expanding the human mind are those who understand this BS, share it with the rest of humanity and challenge those that are enslaving humanity. In that field, there are many but just one of those with very little reach like myselfare expanding the horizons of humanity much more, let me emphasis that much more by a factor of ten, than all the sceintists of China, India, Brazil, US and Europe that are in the service of power, COMBINED."

......... first i thought you were simply delusional or mildly schizophrenic, now i am, beginning to think that you really cuckooo .... get some professional help instead of abusing poor tahmed .....
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#138 Posted by masadi on January 20, 2008 12:51:41 pm
hamid writes "... just google "muhammad's message to abyssinia" and "khalid walid message to persia" and you can get the text of these historic texts that still warm the cockles of masadi's cold heart ....."

Like every third rate liar, he cannot manage to show you a single statement from a proper source i.e the Quran, so he has to come up with manufactured letters that like BB's will were invented to legitimize the power grab of perverts, attributed by hook or by crook to the prophet. What "warms" the cockles of my caring heart is the yearning of the suffering masses for social justice and the ability to lead a human existance which is denied to them by the swines that tahmed and hamidm worship
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#139 Posted by tahmed32 on January 20, 2008 2:03:32 pm
rf #129 Thanks for the welcome back. Glad we agree on the bigger picture on how the battle lines are drawn.
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#140 Posted by tahmed32 on January 20, 2008 2:17:05 pm
anil #130 It is indeed helpful to keep this bigger picture in mind. Will check out the Economist. There is also an excellent article in Foreign Affairs that basically argues that the rise of China may (contrary to past history when the rise of new powers inevitably led to conflict with the older powers) in fact prove peaceful and stabilizing. The article is titled "The Rise of China and the Future of the West" by G. John Ikenberry and the link is given below. With the neo-cons discredited, hopefully the next elections will lead to the US taking the lead in facilitating this process. With China and India joining the ranks of the progressive nations (particularly if China's one-party dictatorship gradually erodes due to the emergence of more pluralistic society), there is every reason to be hopeful that mankind would have made a permanent transition from internecine fighting to one geared to fighting on the "true frontiers" (i.e. to extend science and knowledge and mankind's options and control over the vast resources of the solar system).

http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20080101faessay87102/g-john-ikenberry/ the-rise-of-china-and-the-future-of-the-west.html
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#141 Posted by tahmed32 on January 20, 2008 2:21:55 pm
hamidm #131 you start by saying i am wrong, and then go on to knock down straw men you set up, not anything i said. so do me a big favor and comment on what i wrote if you wish, but dont comment on stuff you made up.
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#142 Posted by tahmed32 on January 20, 2008 2:29:32 pm
masadi #135 Ignoring your usual abuse, this is the substance of what you are saying: ". These things you talk about above do not empower mankind as a whole "

You use the internet (developed by the US Department of Defense!!) to write the above. That proves what a hypocrite you are, and how empty your arguments.

Also, in order not to be a hypocrite: Shut off the electricity (developed in the west), turn off plumbing, throw away books in the english language, dont call for a regular doctor when you fall ill (pir, fakirs are OK), dont use a motorized vehicle (go on your donkey instead). Then tell me that the advancements I was talking about dont benefit you.
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#143 Posted by masadi on January 20, 2008 2:30:00 pm
#140 tahmed writes "With China and India joining the ranks of the progressive nations (particularly if China's one-party dictatorship gradually erodes due to the emergence of more pluralistic society), there is every reason to be hopeful that mankind would have made a permanent transition from internecine fighting "

What we have come to expect of snakes is fluff and nonsense veiled within the rhetoric of his masters that of referring to all non Western nations as being non-progressive (a milder term they use compared to uncivilized). Here he wants to include China and India FINALLY into the progressive camp because after rejecting the West and developing as a result they have opened up to being raped by it. He mentions internecine fighting deliberately glossing over the fact that the most militaristic nation that has bombed nations much smaller, weaker and poorer than it over BS excuses has been the US. If there ever were uncivilized barbarians running rampant over the face of the entire earth, not stopped by mountains or seas or TRUTH, that group have been the US elite and he wants to use fluff and all kinds of BS, hypocritical talk about knowledge and democracy and freedom (like his masters do) so that mankind is distracted and it is much easier to rob them blind. We will no longer fall for this shit. Take your fluff, and you sweet talk and shove it up your master's a$$. Recognized these snakes for what they are, never let down your guard; this is my advice to you folk, and you know, sure as hell, who the sincere one is over here: one who sells out his folk and calls them uncivilized compared to the white man, every opportunity he gets, or the one who desires to free you from the shackles that those colonial masters of old have trapped you in for centuries.....
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#144 Posted by masadi on January 20, 2008 2:34:53 pm
Tahmed writes "You use the internet (developed by the US Department of Defense!!) to write the above. That proves what a hypocrite you are, and how empty your arguments."

Unlike you I am not a slave to the West to be happy with crumbs they hand out. Information is dominated by a handful of giant corporations, the internet allows the privilaged few, those that can afford a computer (a very small percent of mankind) to reach even a smaller percent of mankind because of all the congestion, and it makes control and tracking people and finances and nations much easier as they integrate into it. Knowledge is nobody's property, it is not Western or Eastern, it is being abused and manipulated by the Western elite to dominate and control mankind when, were it not for the foundations provided by multiple cultures these very people would be grovelling in the caves. I will not turn off any of the very few facilities that modern invention provides me simply because the Western elite do not own it and without the help of other could never have invented it. I will use it to liberate mankind to the best of my ability as they are using it to enslave them, and you can go F yourself....
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#145 Posted by masadi on January 20, 2008 2:41:28 pm
tahmed writes "dont call for a regular doctor when you fall ill "

It takes money to call a doctor and over 45 million in America without health insurance cannot do it even if they wanted to, the others are manipulated, drugged up the wazoo and thousands killed through useless operations every year all for making money, not to mention that Western medicine was far inferior to Eastern medicine that provided the foundation for it surgery and all before the modern era when the white man went on his rampage around the world to monopolize its wealth, and use his inventions to rob mankind further, the medical industry in the US is a prime example....
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#146 Posted by masadi on January 20, 2008 2:50:39 pm
tahmed writes "Then tell me that the advancements I was talking about dont benefit you."

You were talking about empowerment and not "benefit". They certainly do not either empower me (rather make me dependent on others and the job that will pay for them) or benefit me in any real terms. The only "benefit" that accrues to me (and books and writing and communication was not "invented" by the West) is because society in which I have to live has been designed around these so called conveniences that are benefitting a tiny elite and not the mass of people (the privilaged few nonetheless) that use them. You being a myopic shrink cannot look at the bigger picture of how this standardization is culturally starving and enslaving the people. These things would have been of no benefit (leave alone empowerment) to me were I living in a different society not designed around such manipulation...

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#147 Posted by shishapa on January 20, 2008 2:50:57 pm
Re: # 136

And do not forget Ahmadinejad's letter to Bush.
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#148 Posted by masadi on January 20, 2008 2:52:38 pm
people can also tell how intellectually weak and myopic your arguments are compared to mind, an enslaved mind is very much inferior to one that is not restricted by material and man worship....
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#149 Posted by masadi on January 20, 2008 2:53:28 pm
in #148 read "compared to mind" as compared to mine
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#150 Posted by mohar11 on January 20, 2008 4:12:04 pm
Re: # 118 zee

Your post makes no sense... Political clout is built on business and economic power... so if business is "house of cards", as you say, then so would be politics... Business is not house of cards - there will always be ups and downs - normal business cycles...

true that india is nowhere in picture in that sense... but that will change, if india can continue build up business and economically...
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#151 Posted by arjun_5 on January 20, 2008 4:44:06 pm
#144 Posted by masadi on January 20, 2008 2:34:53 pm


the Western elite do not own it and without the help of other could never have invented it.


US elite don't own the internet? google mae west or mae east..that is, if you're not averse to using google because it wasn't invented by abu-al-camelsbutt..
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#152 Posted by masadi on January 20, 2008 4:48:36 pm
arjun writes "US elite don't own the internet?"

Look freak, they don't simply because knowledge is nobody's "property". Is that concept too damn hard for you to understand?
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#153 Posted by arjun_5 on January 20, 2008 5:05:21 pm
#152 Posted by masadi on January 20, 2008 4:48:36 pm

masadi...if you've ever studied computer science, physics or chemistry, you'd know that there's almost no reference book by any muslim author...almost none...OTOH, the indians and the chinese, living in the gutter as you claim they do, have produced a surprising number of books used as reference by the kids of the US elite(TM).
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#154 Posted by masadi on January 20, 2008 5:43:44 pm
arjun writes "no reference book by any muslim author..."

And to think of it until just a few centuries back all reference books were by authors with Muslim names, containing not only translations and compilations but much original work unlike the reference books you are referring to, and don't put my comments about the "gutter" out of context, freak
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#155 Posted by arjun_5 on January 20, 2008 5:50:57 pm
#154 Posted by masadi on January 20, 2008 5:43:44 pm


And to think of it until just a few centuries back all reference books were by authors with Muslim names, containing not only translations and compilations but much original work unlike the reference books you are referring to


really? the reference books I'm talking about aren't original..and abu al-camelsbutt's book from the 9th century was a reference book?

care to cite references from "a few centuries back"?
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#156 Posted by dost_mittar on January 20, 2008 6:10:10 pm
masadi, zeemax:

I never said that Indo-Pak hostility is a one-way street. But I was addressing the topic at hand which is the current political situation in Pakistan.

...and as I said, things are changing. It is refreshing to read Pakistani news media these days and finding almost a complete lack of venom for India and even those horrible hindoos. During the recent cricket matches between India and Pakistan, the bonhomie between the opposing players on and off field was heart-warming and a pleasant contrast to the ugly scenes between Australian and Indian players.
...but chowk is as yet untouched by this change of winds, but this will change, too.
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#157 Posted by hamidm2 on January 20, 2008 6:19:13 pm


tahmed,

... you senile old fool ! ..... all i was trying to do was point out that 'domination' through science, technology and business is not the muslims' cup of kava ...... we are supposed to follow the example of the prophet (pbuh and his camel) who went to war with anyone and everyone who refused to believe in the moon god ....... that attitude lives on in people like masadi and zeemax ....... that's all i was trying to say .......
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#158 Posted by hamidm2 on January 20, 2008 6:20:53 pm

tahmed,

.... and please don't mind me calling you a 'senile old fool' ..... i say that because you remind me of what i could be like in a few years ...... it is a scary thought
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#159 Posted by masadi on January 20, 2008 6:21:01 pm
Arjun writes "care to cite references from "a few centuries back"? "

It is not my job to educate ignorant fools here. The state of education today is such that there is no ONE reference for any subject, maybe just parts of a subject in which the Indians and the Chinese certainly are not at the forefront; they are all compilations, and accumulations given the state of knowledge itself which grown incrementally and has not been monopolized by any one religious, ethnic or national group whatsoever- which seems to be your obsession- the most anyone came to monopolizing it were the Muslims of the middle ages because unlike the Indian, Western and Chinese minds of the age their minds were free of superstition and bigotry so they could use the work of ohters and build upon it.

Let's see 1)Jabir Ibn Hayan, the father and sole reference on modern chemistry for centuries

2)Muhammad Ibn Musa al-Khwarazmi- Algebra and Mathematics- without which much of your modern Chinese and Indian "reference makers" would be worth shit.

3) Ibn Sina: the Canon of Medicine used as reference in the West till a couple of centuries back

4. Hunain Ibn Ishaq- greatest compiler of worldwide medical works known to date, without whose work none of your modern day "reference makers" would have amounted to anything

5) ibn Zakariyya ar Razi- pharmacology

6)Al- Farghani Elements of Astronomy- main reference on Astronomy in both the East and the West before the modern era

7)Ibn Khaldun Historiography and Sociology

Should I keep going on FREAK, now let us have your References from the Chinese and the Indians...go on, whatever shit they are they don't compare to the historical value of the above, I guarantee you that....


http://www.amazon.com/Lost-History-Enduring-Scientists-Thinkers/dp /1426200927
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#160 Posted by dost_mittar on January 20, 2008 6:30:36 pm
sanatani#102:

"If we take a small example of the number of abducted Hindu/Sikh women returned by Pak in 47 as comapred to Muslim women returned by India would give yuou a very good idea of who was the aggressor."

For this, you should blame instead the cowardly and regressive attitude of your coreligionists. The abducted Hindu/Sikh women knew that their brothers, fathers, husbands and even sons will refuse to accept that "patit" women who they had left behind in Pakistan and most of them took the right decision to stay back and put the pieces of their lives together. Those who took the opportunity to come to India wasted the rest of their lives in a Jalandar ashram. You may want to read Urvashi Butalia's well-researched accounts of how these women were discarded by their dear ones.

#102:
"Tis a pity he is not Hindu then we could say Shree Shree 1007 Madani Sahib Shree Shree 1008 being god."

Are you sure? For my money, madaniji is the most successful trol on chowk.
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#161 Posted by masadi on January 20, 2008 6:42:23 pm
dost writes "For my money, madaniji is the most successful trol on chowk."

You mean to tell me that (possibly) the only friend I have on Chowk, other than my friend HP (pardon me), is not for real?
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#162 Posted by hamidm2 on January 20, 2008 6:46:04 pm
Re: # 159

masadi,

... what about mills?..... was he a muslim too? ...... now, as far as i can tell his book on the us elite and the toothfairy is the only book you seem to have read ...... as far as we muslims are concerned, we don't need any book other than the book - everything we need to know is in there and if it is not, it is goat's fault .......

.... and stop throwing around the names of long dead arabs and persians as if they were your ancestors .... you and i are more than likely related to a half naked hindoo who roamed the countryside with his tiny steel utensil looking for a place to squat ........ and if it hadn't been for the white man who built the railroad tracks you would still be wandering ......
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#163 Posted by hamidm2 on January 20, 2008 6:48:06 pm
Re: # 161

masadi,

.... and please stop trying to gain respectability by associating your name with the likes of hp mian and madani sahib - they just humor you so that you can make a bigger fool out of yourself (as if that were possble)
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#164 Posted by masadi on January 20, 2008 6:52:40 pm
hamid writes "you and i are more than likely related to a half naked hindoo who roamed the countryside with his tiny steel utensil looking for a place to squat"

If you must know, my ancestors migrated to this area from Iraq, not that it matters and the purpose of throwing out those names was to counter Arjun's bigotry and not to show anything about my ancestory. Regarding HP he is a good friend and a partner for social justice, you are just jealous that minds better than you recognize the worth of my posts....now go ___ yourself...
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#165 Posted by masadi on January 20, 2008 6:54:52 pm
In #164 read " you are just jealous that minds better than you recognize the worth of my posts..." as

you are just jealous that minds better than yours recognize the worth of my posts...
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#166 Posted by tahmed32 on January 20, 2008 6:56:55 pm
#157 hamidm: i see you seem to be learning something from chowk finally - even though it is merely calling people names on the internet.

even senile old fool (to use your words) like me can tell that science and learning is not about "domination". and you are obviously finding that concept to understand.

Here is your assignment: re-read my post #128 carefully, then come back and tell me where you see me talking about muslim (or any other kind) of "domination".
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#167 Posted by hamidm2 on January 20, 2008 7:03:10 pm
Re: # 164

masadi,

... unlike you, hp seems to have made it in the land of opportunity and can therefore afford to be for 'social justice' ..... there is room in this great country for democrats and other homo-loving, tree-hugging, pot-smoking, bleeding heart liberals ......... we can afford it .... heck we even put up with crazy kooks like gloria stenheim and naom chomsky and ted kennedy ....... hp is a good man and most of the time he is on the right side, as is madani sahib who believes in the absolute superiority of people with 'milk white' complexions .......
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#168 Posted by hamidm2 on January 20, 2008 7:06:02 pm
Re: # 166

tahmed,

.... i read your post very carefully and stand by my argument that science and technology and other such nonsense does not matter to muslims ..... and if you think they are important, then you are not a true muslim (as i have always suspected) .....

.... tahmed, you are a good man, but you need to give up your superstitions and stop making excuses for your co-religionists .....
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#169 Posted by tahmed32 on January 20, 2008 7:06:13 pm
masadi: i see you it took you four posts to try and respond to the simple point i made on why you are a complete hypocrite when you claim that science and learning does not benefit all mankind (and not just the "evil elite").

As Shakespeare wrote: "Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive". If you had even an ounce of honesty in you, you would not need to bend and twist and write post after post trying to disprove the obvious. So, I am not going to waste my time reading your rubbish. I'm going to go read a fine book titled the People's History of the United States instead. Good night. :-)
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#170 Posted by hamidm2 on January 20, 2008 7:09:38 pm


tahmed,

..... one more thing - we, that is you and i, need to stand united against masadi .... he is the real enemy who threatens our children and our sanity ........
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#171 Posted by tahmed32 on January 20, 2008 7:10:15 pm
#168 hamidm: Your claim that to be a muslim and to appreciate science at the same time is not possible is so stupid that I am not going to return this statement to you for further consideration and reflection. I know you can do it. Good night to you too.
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#172 Posted by masadi on January 20, 2008 7:10:43 pm
tahmed writes "So, I am not going to waste my time reading your rubbish. I'm going to go read a fine book titled the People's History of the United States instead. Good night. :-)"

As usual stumped by the facts and truth he puts his tail between his legs and runs off like the true hypocrite that he is. It took 4 posts not to answer one point but the "web of deceptions" that you were weaving mixing empowerment with benefit, using electricity with submitting to the colonial elite.

It is good that you are reading that book, the author of the book Howard Zinn knows me well, and when you read it you'll see how your mythology about this land its elite is busted...no go ___ yourself

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#173 Posted by tahmed32 on January 20, 2008 7:11:25 pm
#171 should read:

hamidm: Your claim that to be a muslim and to appreciate science at the same time is not possible is so stupid that I am going to return this statement to you for further consideration and reflection. I know you can do it. Good night to you too.
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#174 Posted by masadi on January 20, 2008 7:12:25 pm
In #172 read "mythology about this land its elite is busted...no go ___ yourself"

as

mythology about this land and its elite is busted...now go ___ yourself


Hamid: why don't you shut up and let HP do his own talking, I don't think he advertised a chaprasee job recently

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#175 Posted by tahmed32 on January 20, 2008 7:12:48 pm
#172 masadi: and stop dropping names. I dont care if Virgil himself is your best friend.
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#176 Posted by majumdar on January 20, 2008 7:12:49 pm
Masadu sahib,

(If you must know, my ancestors migrated to this area from Iraq)

Is there any Paki Momin- apart from Salim Chauhan (who seems to be a descendant of Prithviraj) and Hamid mian (who is descendant from Grandpa Gopinath)- who is descended from the Hanud lowlifes.

Regards
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#177 Posted by masadi on January 20, 2008 7:15:58 pm
Majumdar writes "who is descended from the Hanud lowlifes."

All of humanity descended from a small group of original ancestors, only the fools are obsessed with what ethnicity their ancestors were and among the Indian Hindus the fools abound....

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#178 Posted by masadi on January 20, 2008 7:18:22 pm
tahmed writes "172 masadi: and stop dropping names. "

There is no name dropping you freak, you are reading a book written by an actual historian that is 100% in line with my ideas and exposes the evil of this nation's elite, and 100% opposed to your popular mythology about it. I know its author, who wrote exceptionally good comments about my book "Living by the Swort: The War Addiction of America's elite".

I don't "drop names" to prove something by the name fool.
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#179 Posted by masadi on January 20, 2008 7:22:29 pm
In #178 read "Living by the Swort: The War Addiction of America's elite".

as
"Living by the Sword: The War Addiction of America's elite".

For those who are interested the isbn on Amazon for searching is :978-1411612617


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#180 Posted by hamidm2 on January 20, 2008 7:23:44 pm
Re: # 176

majumdar,

... i may be descended from grandpa gopinath, but i am not proud of it - it is an accident of history .... i wish i was white .....
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#181 Posted by arjun_5 on January 20, 2008 7:24:39 pm
#174 Posted by masadi on January 20, 2008 7:12:25 pm

you don't really have to provide any corrections. We already read everything you write as "US elite bad bad bad!!"
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#182 Posted by majumdar on January 20, 2008 7:25:00 pm
Masadi sahib,

(only the fools are obsessed with what ethnicity their ancestors were and among the Indian Hindus the fools abound....)

Few Injun Hanuds would be able to trace their ancestry beyond 2 or 3 generations- I certainly can't beyond 3- but every Pakistani is reliably able to trace his ancestry to the Prophet (pbuh) or one of his companions.

Regards
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#183 Posted by hamidm2 on January 20, 2008 7:28:35 pm


masadi,

howard zinn knows you ?! ....... why am i not surprised - the man is a certified cuckoo ...... i assume you also know jane fonda and ward churchill ........
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#184 Posted by arjun_5 on January 20, 2008 7:31:19 pm
#159 Posted by masadi on January 20, 2008 6:21:01 pm


2)Muhammad Ibn Musa al-Khwarazmi- Algebra and Mathematics- without which much of your modern Chinese and Indian "reference makers" would be worth shit.


But the hindoos invented the zero, as they never tire of telling us, so everything abu ibm whateva did flows from that..

think about it...without the zero, there would be no way to quantify your contribution to society...
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#185 Posted by masadi on January 20, 2008 7:34:30 pm
majumdar writes "Few Injun Hanuds would be able to trace their ancestry beyond 2 or 3 generations"

Maybe your history has a lot to do with that, whereas you accepted the identity the colonials handed to you, the Muslim fallback was to their earlier glory days, my comment about fools was to the post partition era where every Indian Hindu and his mamma as a reaction wants to score points against the Muslims, as is quite evident here on chowk where after 9/11 those fools have descended on everything remotely Islamic as vultures. Your generalization about Pakistanis and their ancestory is also not accurate, ethnicity is of no concern in Islam whereas in the caste ridden Hindu system it is everything.
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#186 Posted by masadi on January 20, 2008 7:36:09 pm
arjun writes "But the hindoos invented the zero,"

IT would have died a short death were it not for the Muslims to be interested in using it and taking it to the world, regardless of what ethnicity it came from....freak
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#187 Posted by masanamuthu on January 20, 2008 7:36:56 pm
If you must know, my ancestors migrated to this area from Iraq,

Is there a possibility that you could be a descendant of Mohammad the prophet??.
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#188 Posted by arjun_5 on January 20, 2008 7:38:24 pm
hey masadi..I looked up one of your abu-whatevas on wikipedia..

looks like mo-ibn-whateva was doing what allah's homies refuse to do 1300 years after his time...stop whining and learn from other cultures...

this only proves allah's homies are marching backwards..perhaps the writing backwards has had an effect...but hewbrew is written bacwards too so that can't be it...

Muhammad ibn MÅ«sÄ? al-KhwÄ?rizmÄ«

His book On the Calculation with Hindu Numerals written about 825, was principally responsible for the diffusion of the Indian system of numeration in the Middle-East and then Europe. This book also translated into Latin in the twelfth century, as Algoritmi de numero Indorum. From the name of the author, rendered in Latin as algoritmi, originated the term algorithm.

Some of his contributions were based on earlier Persian and Babylonian Astronomy, Indian numbers, and Greek sources.
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#189 Posted by arjun_5 on January 20, 2008 7:40:11 pm
#186 Posted by masadi on January 20, 2008 7:36:09 pm


IT would have died a short death were it not for the Muslims to be interested in using it and taking it to the world, regardless of what ethnicity it came from


HAHA...so the hindooos get no credit for the zero and other elements of algebra that mo al-whatever expanded upon...and yet mo-al-whateva gets credit for the quantum computer whenever it's invented?
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#190 Posted by masadi on January 20, 2008 7:47:36 pm
arjun writes "so the hindooos get no credit for the zero "

No fool, they get credit for inventing it for a village of 50 people but they certainly don't get credit for making it of use to the world, use that directly led to the computing you talk about...freak
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#191 Posted by majumdar on January 20, 2008 7:49:52 pm
Masadi sahib,

( the Muslim fallback was to their earlier glory days)

Glory days as in when Muslim imperialists were ruling over non-Muslims. Since you are so much against US imperialism, I presume you wud be equally against Muslim imperialism, no?

Regards
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#192 Posted by arjun_5 on January 20, 2008 7:51:17 pm
Masadi: looks what I found in the internet(invented not by al gore but mo abu-whateva)

think about it...the joke "how many paki jihadis does it take to blow up a lightbulb" wouldn't have a punchline if it weren't for the hindu numeric system "borrowed" by the arabs...

now that's just elementary algebra...you'd know if your only education weren't that of a sociologist..

how do sociologists do algebra or arithmetic anyway? we normal people do 2+2 = 4. Do you do "US elite forced 2 and 2 to come together and make four"?

The Hindu-Arabic numeral system is a place-value numeral system: the value of a digit depends on the place where it appears; the '2' in 205 is ten times greater than the '2' in 25. It requires a zero to handle the empty powers of ten (as in "205"). [1]

The numeral system was developed in ancient India, and was well established by the time of the Bakhshali manuscript (ca. 3d c. CE). Despite its Indian origins it was initially known in the West as Arabic numerals because of its introduction to Europe through Arabic texts such as Al-Khwarizmi's On the Calculation with Hindu Numerals (ca. 825), and Al-Kindi's four volume work On the Use of the Indian Numerals (ca. 830)[2]. Today the name Hindu-Arabic numerals is usually used.

Decimal System

An early decimal system was clearly in use by the inhabitants of the Indus valley civilization by 3000 BC. Excavations at both Harappa and Mohenjo Daro reveal decimal weights belonging to "two series both being decimal in nature with each decimal number multiplied and divided by two, giving for the main series ratios of 0.05, 0.1, 0.2, 0.5, 1, 2, 5, 10, 20, 50, 100, 200, and 500."[3] Also, marked rulers at Lodhar reveal gradations of 1.32 inches (3.35 centimetres), ten of which are 13.2 inches, possibly something akin to a "foot" (similar measures exist in other parts of Asia and beyond). Markings on these and other texts reveal a number system with symbols for the numbers one through nine, and separate symbols for 10, 20, 100; thus the decimal system is highly developed though place-value is not used.

Linguistic comparison among Indo-European languages (ca. 3000 BC), shows a decimal enumeration system [4]. In early Vedic texts, composed between 1500 BC and 800 BC, we find Sanskrit number words not only for counting numbers in very large ranges, ranging up to 1019, with some puranas referring to numbers as large as 1062[5].

Historians trace modern numerals in most languages to the Brahmi numerals, which were in use around the middle of the third century BC.[6] The place value system, however, evolved later. The Brahmi numerals have been found in inscriptions in caves and on coins in regions near Pune, Mumbai, and Uttar Pradesh. These numerals (with slight variations) were in use over quite a long time span up to the 4th century AD[6].

During the Gupta period (early 4th century AD to the late 6th century AD), the Gupta numerals developed from the Brahmi numerals and were spread over large areas by the Gupta empire as they conquered territory [6]. Beginning around 7th century, the Gupta numerals evolved into the Nagari numerals.

[edit] Positional notation

There is indirect evidence that the Babylonians had a place value system as early as the 19th century BCnote to masadi: that's way before mo's time..., to the base 60, with a separator mark in empty places. This separator mark never was used at the end of a number, and it was not possible to tell the difference between 2 and 20. This innovation was brought about by Brahmagupta of India. Further, the Babylonian place value marker did not stand alone, as per the Indian "0"[citation needed].

There is indirect evidence that the Indians developed a positional number system as early as the first century CE[6]. The Bakhshali manuscript (c. 3d c. BCE) uses a place value system with a dot to denote the zero, which is called shunya-sthAna, "empty-place", and the same symbol is also used in algebraic expressions for the unknown (as in the canonical x in modern algebra). However, the date of the Bakhshali manuscript is hard to establish, and has been the subject of considerable debate. The oldest dated Indian document showing use of the modern place value form is a legal document dated 346 in the Chhedi calendar, which translates to 594 CE[6]. While some historians have claimed that the date on this document was a later forgery, it is not clear what might have motivated it, and it is generally accepted that enumeration using the place-value system was in common use in India by the end of the 6th century. [7]. Indian books dated to this period are able to denote numbers in the hundred thousands using a place value system. [8] Many other inscriptions have been found which are dated and make use of the place-value system for either the date or some other numbers within the text [6], although some historians claim these to also be forgeries.

In his seminal text of 499, Aryabhata devised a positional number system without a zero digit. He used the word "kha" for the zero position.[6]. Evidence suggests that a dot had been used in earlier Indian manuscripts to denote an empty place in positional notation. [5]. The same documents sometimes also used a dot to denote an unknown where we might use x. Later Indian mathematicians had names for zero in positional numbers yet had no symbol for it.

The use of zero in these positional systems are the final step to the system of numerals we are familiar with today. The first inscription showing the use of zero which is dated and is not disputed by any historian is the inscription at Gwalior dated 933 in the Vikrama calendar (876 CE.) [6][9].

The oldest known text to use zero is the Jain text from India entitled the Lokavibhaaga , dated 458 AD.[10]

The first indubitable appearance of a symbol for zero appears in 876 in India on a stone tablet in Gwalior. Documents on copper plates, with the same small o in them, dated back as far as the sixth century AD, abound.[11]

[edit] Adoption by the Arabs

Before the rise of the Arab Empire, the Hindu-Arabic numeral system was already moving West and was mentioned in Syria in 662 AD by the Nestorian scholar Severus Sebokht who wrote the following:

"I will omit all discussion of the science of the Indians, ... , of their subtle discoveries in astronomy, discoveries that are more ingenious than those of the Greeks and the Babylonians, and of their valuable methods of calculation which surpass description. I wish only to say that this computation is done by means of nine signs. If those who believe, because they speak Greek, that they have arrived at the limits of science, would read the Indian texts, they would be convinced, even if a little late in the day, that there are others who know something of value."[6]

According to al-Qifti's chronology of the scholars[7]:

"... a person from India presented himself before the Caliph al-Mansur in the year [776 AD] who was well versed in the siddhanta method of calculation related to the movement of the heavenly bodies, and having ways of calculating equations based on the half-chord [essentially the sine] calculated in half-degrees ... This is all contained in a work ... from which he claimed to have taken the half-chord calculated for one minute. Al-Mansur ordered this book to be translated into Arabic, and a work to be written, based on the translation, to give the Arabs a solid base for calculating the movements of the planets ..."

The work was most likely to have been Brahmagupta's Brahmasphutasiddhanta (Ifrah) [8] (The Opening of the Universe) which was written in 628[9]. Irrespective of whether Ifrah is right, since all Indian texts after Aryabhata's Aryabhatiya used the Indian number system, certainly from this time the Arabs had a translation of a text written in the Indian number system. [10]

In his text The Arithmetic of Al-Uqlîdisî (Dordrecht: D. Reidel, 1978), A.S. Saidan's studies were unable to answer in full how the numerals reached the Arab world:

"It seems plausible that it drifted gradually, probably before the seventh century, through two channels, one starting from Sind, undergoing Persian filtration and spreading in what is now known as the Middle East, and the other starting from the coasts of the Indian Ocean and extending to the southern coasts of the Mediterranean."[11]

Al-Uqlidisi developed a notation to represent decimal fractions. [12][13] The numerals came to fame due to their use in the pivotal work of the Persian mathematician Al-Khwarizmi, whose book On the Calculation with Hindu Numerals was written about 825, and the Arab mathematician Al-Kindi, who wrote four volumes (see [2]) "On the Use of the Indian Numerals" (Ketab fi Isti'mal al-'Adad al-Hindi) about 830. They, amongst other works, contributed to the diffusion of the Indian system of numeration in the Middle-East and the West.

[edit] Adoption in Europe

Main article: Arabic numerals

The first Arabic numerals in Europe appeared in the Codex Vigilanus in the year 976.
The first Arabic numerals in Europe appeared in the Codex Vigilanus in the year 976.

Fibonacci, an Italian mathematician who had studied in Bejaia (Bougie), Algeria, promoted the Arabic numeral system in Europe with his book Liber Abaci, which was published in 1202. The system did not come into wide use in Europe, however, until the invention of printing (See, for example, the 1482 Ptolemaeus map of the world printed by Lienhart Holle in Ulm, and other examples in the Gutenberg Museum in Mainz, Germany.)

In the last few centuries, the European variety of Arabic numbers was spread around the world and gradually became the most commonly used numeral system in the world. Even in many countries in languages which have their own numeral systems, the European Arabic numerals are widely used in commerce and mathematics.

[edit] Impact on Mathematics

The significance of the development of the positional number system is probably best described by the French mathematician Pierre Simon Laplace (1749 - 1827) who wrote:

"It is India that gave us the ingenuous method of expressing all numbers by the means of ten symbols, each symbol receiving a value of position, as well as an absolute value; a profound and important idea which appears so simple to us now that we ignore its true merit, but its very simplicity, the great ease which it has lent to all computations, puts our arithmetic in the first rank of useful inventions, and we shall appreciate the grandeur of this achievement when we remember that it escaped the genius of Archimedes and Apollonius, two of the greatest minds produced by antiquity."

Tobias Dantzig, the father of George Dantzig, had this to say in Number:

"This long period of nearly five thousand years saw the rise and fall of many a civilization, each leaving behind it a heritage of literature, art, philosophy, and religion. But what was the net achievement in the field of reckoning, the earliest art practiced by man? An inflexible numeration so crude as to make progress well nigh impossible, and a calculating device so limited in scope that even elementary calculations called for the services of an expert [...] Man used these devices for thousands of years without contributing a single important idea to the system [...] Even when compared with the slow growth of ideas during the dark ages, the history of reckoning presents a peculiar picture of desolate stagnation. When viewed in this light, the achievements of the unknown Hindu, who some time in the first centuries of our era discovered the principle of position, assumes the importance of a world event."
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#193 Posted by arjun_5 on January 20, 2008 7:52:53 pm
#190 Posted by masadi on January 20, 2008 7:47:36 pm


No fool, they get credit for inventing it for a village of 50 people but they certainly don't get credit for making it of use to the world, use that directly led to the computing you talk about


HAHA..place value system had nothing to do with computers?

moron..the whole concept of binary/hex/octal is based on place value...
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#194 Posted by ahmedmadani on January 20, 2008 8:20:43 pm

I must confess recently studied lot about things and some book written by masadi and suggested authors and earlier did not use to read carefully and just write as some thing to do in retirement. Recent study has given me idealogical basis more on basic strong foundation and faith with courage.
Earlier YLH had confused me lot but recent reading about the emperical power elites and oppression has changed my thinking.
Before I use prfer white / fair people now i prefer no color business colorblind attitude.
I will suggest Tahmed not to read any books as I have come to conclusion more you read and more you study more foolish you become. To have good life simple formula, achha Khana and Achha Gana. All other is Lafangebazi.
I am thinking of not contributing as friends are getting angry with me and I am getting despised.

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#195 Posted by nkg on January 20, 2008 8:56:19 pm
Re: # 193
Everything is OK. But are we informing the Indians about our contribution towards science,mathematics and medicine? In the name of secularism, we are keeping large number of Indians (specially from north India in dark, and Congress is very successful in breaking the people's confidence).
When Niels Bohr was touring India, he has told ( In Calcutta) "...you indians have contributed nothing..." and then burst out laughter, " the concept of zero...".
Even post barbaric/moslem rule, India has produced scientists like C V Raman, U N Brahmachari,J C Bose (Inventor of Radio transmitter & Receiver, solid state antena...), Satyen Bose(Boson particle named after him),Ramanusam...
Somehow, after 1947,Congress was able to destroy the culture again. There is no point proving to others. Please bring the achievements in front of Indians to bring confidence. Hope, another 20 years, we will recover, if Ministry of Science and Technical Education is provided with proper fund and people are provided proper information.
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#196 Posted by rf786 on January 20, 2008 9:04:31 pm
Re: # 194

ahmed,adani sahib

aap mahaan hein...
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#197 Posted by majumdar on January 20, 2008 9:09:15 pm
Ahmedmadani sahib,

(I am thinking of not contributing as friends are getting angry with me and I am getting despised.)

Please keep contributing. You have an unequalled skill on chowk in telling it as it is and in very simple, uncomplicated language.

Regards
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#198 Posted by nkg on January 20, 2008 9:11:30 pm
Re: # 193
Islamic savegery may be the most potent reason for destruction of our ( indian) intellectual superiority, but, whatever opportunity we have got after British has kicked out moslems, we have not utilised that to full potential. The main reason is population explosion and our misguided priority.
We are spending huge amount of money to provide universal education, but not enough for centre of excellence. That is silently killing the excellence. The reservation menace is already taking its toll on IITs. The politicians are forcing IIT faculty members to downgrade to mediocre standard.
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#199 Posted by ahmedmadani on January 20, 2008 9:35:28 pm
Re: # 197 Now I wrote about Indian toy car industry.
I lost what I wanted to say. Now I remember.
Generally there is system ( useing complex word- management word) for things to do. Like if you want to buid house , first you make foundation then upper story. Now most world does first road and they build cars. Like here we first built motorways and then started mechano car building stuff of ie breaking crates of kits of parts and then assembling.
You have good engineers no management thinking ( as romair siad many time indian IItians are stunted by lack of managers to put them work and make them hard.) India is strange country in sense. You build nano platform which appears with likness as car but you have no roads to drive. So just little mismatch. Now indian executives ( executives means people who can hire and fire )in air industry have ordered 300 airmachines that good and dandy but now they are worried out where they can park them at night. Everybody has problems you have little different problems.
You need good lesson from Lahore management for basics of planning. Your country is strange and I am very charitable, such things only happen in India.
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#200 Posted by nkg on January 20, 2008 10:31:36 pm
Re: # 115
Total Insane...
The richest person in UK is Indian ( L N Mittal)....Arcelor-Mittal is the largest steel company in the world. India had invented steel. So, the largest steel company in hand of Indians is the most appropriate, the civilised British has understood that...You need to come out of islamic mindset to understand that...
Tata Nano is appreciated even by VW, Fiat people.
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#201 Posted by Ranjit on January 20, 2008 10:35:49 pm
Re:ahmedmadani#199

Ahmed Madani sahib, please understand that the Tata Nano is a symbol of what is happening inside India. People are finding uniquely Indian solutions to their problems instead of crying all day about US elites or dreaming about some utopian social justice based on sharia. In other words, practical steps are being taken for the benefit of massive numbers of people. The Indian people are doing this on their own based on their own creativity and genius rather than waiting for government to solve their problems or for the US to hand out charity.

The Tata Nano may not be a fancy car, but it is a fairly decent small car that hundreds of millions of people can afford. It is built entirely by Indian technology and Indian parts. So once it gets produced, imagine the impact on Indian manufacturing sector. Not only Tata, but all the parts suppliers and the entire supply chain will benefit from the boom in car sales. That will mean more jobs for people, which means more people will be able to afford the product and so on. As people get richer, they can buy bigger cars while people who move up from the lower classes to middle class can buy the Nano. The price of two wheelers like Scooter will reduce and lower class people will be able to afford those. The ability for people to move around freely will open up more options to grow the economy like the Model T from Ford did for USA in 1900s.

As the car owning class increases in size, they will pressure the government to build better infrastructure such as highways. My father has been involved in the Golden Quadrilateral project which involved construction of 4 lane or 6 lane highways connecting the 4 metropolis - Delhi, Bombay, Madras and Calcutta. That project is already complete and the road network has become far better than before. It is improving all over the place in terms of new construction of flyovers and highways.

The other great benefit from projects like Nano is that it is pushing all manufacturers to find solutions for Indian consumers. The competition is putting pressure on everyone to deliver better products. Already Mahindra and Mahindra have come out with plans to build very cheap Sports Utility Vehicles (SUVs) for families. Tatas have even come up with cheap water filtration devices that can provide high quality drinking water to millions of people at a cheap price of Rs 200 (5 dollars).

The bottom line is that the Indian industry is humming with action and that is good for jobs and future growth of India.
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#202 Posted by majumdar on January 20, 2008 10:40:14 pm
Ranjit bhai,

I am glad that the Tatas have come up with cheap car and cheap drinking water filters. Now if only they cud come up with a cheap potty....

Regards
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#203 Posted by Ranjit on January 20, 2008 10:46:00 pm
Majumdar bhai.....first you need to provide roti, kapda, makaan and clean drinking water....that is happening as we speak. Potties will come later...
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#204 Posted by majumdar on January 20, 2008 10:53:48 pm
Ranjit bhai,

(first you need to provide roti and clean drinking water)

Agreed. Unless you eat and drink, you can't c*** either. (LOL)

Regards
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#205 Posted by jayp on January 21, 2008 12:17:19 am
Zeemax 99 and others

If you care to read the posts of pakistanis, like Romair a few years ago, they also talked about various shades of jihadis.

There was the kashmir jihadis funded by the ISI only targeting indians.

There was the sectarian jihadis, the shia versus sunni ones, the problem of Karachi and the killing of shia doctors.

There was the afghan jihadis funded by the US.

Then there was the al quida.

Now they all are one and the same, and if you read my eralier posts I had argued that jihadis are general purpose, and teh training they get only makes them insensitive and they will kill any one that the mullah says.

This has come true.
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#206 Posted by SR on January 21, 2008 12:18:43 am
Re: # 156 dost-mittar ["... It is refreshing to read Pakistani news media these days and finding almost a complete lack of venom for India and even those horrible hindoos ..."]

It's gotten even better. Yesterday was the 10th of Muharram and today in the magazine insert that comes with DAWN I saw a full page article titled "Brahmins in Karbala"... (since I do not subscribe to any newspapers anymore and was glancing through this one earlier today at someone's office, I couldn't finish the article) ...

Supposedly there were ten Brahmins from India who had travelled to Arabia for some reason and had somehow joined up with Imam Hussain on his ill-fated journey to Kufa. When the party was intercepted at Karbala the ten Brahmins stood by the out-flanked Imam and gave a glorious account of themselves by gallantly fighting to the last man alongside the doomed Imam. To this day, it appears, that their descendents are referred to as the Husaini Brahmins. They are NOT Muslims. They are very much Hindus, but they are completely exempt from all the Brahmin rituals and practices.

One thing I didn't understand and that was why did the Brahmins fight. I thought it was the Khataris that wielded the sword while the Brahmins stuck to their books and didn't use anything sharper than the tip of a pen.

I will go and get a copy of the paper later today to finish reading the article.

...SR
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#207 Posted by jayp on January 21, 2008 12:22:55 am
Zeemax,

Again indian and technology. It was only a few years ago that chowk was flooded with the ilks of Romair calling the indian IT workers as code coolies. Now i do not hear that and there is talk of Indians taking over Capgemini.

The same was talked regarding indias ambassador cars, now the talk is about Jaguar and Land Rover falling in Indian Hands.

Wait for Ranbaxy, now they are only generic manufacturers, wait a few more years.

In India, the fundamentals are right, education and experience.

There is an old saying in my part of the world, sit before stretching the legs. Slowly, after more than 25 years, teh Reliances and Tatas and Mahindras are doing just that.

By the way, worlds largest undersea cable net work is owned by Indians and wait to see its impact on web.
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#208 Posted by jayp on January 21, 2008 12:30:10 am
Nano Jokes

. There are two sticker prices for Nano, one with empty tank and the other with full tank.

. Tatas are planning to throw in a NANO in the boot of Land Rover as a surprise.

. Jaguar options include Ricaro Seats or a Nano.

.
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#209 Posted by nkg on January 21, 2008 12:43:03 am
Bharat Forge (Kalyani Group)-Forging Automobile components

Both are within top 10 in their respective fields....
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#210 Posted by jayp on January 21, 2008 12:52:50 am
nkg,

There are a lot more companies, Suzlon Energy in wind power,
Bajaj in scooters, Hero in cycles, Tatas in medium trucks..

We do have to give some credit to the pakistanis..

Largest tenants at Guantanamo

Largest military surrender

The latest is capture of 200 soldiers by rag tag taliban

Second largest suicide bombings last year
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#211 Posted by ramchandar on January 21, 2008 1:26:02 am
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#212 Posted by Skeptical on January 21, 2008 1:35:24 am
No meaningful discussion can take place without this over emphasis on US responsible for everything that is happening in Pakistan...
While their involvement in our sphere is true but we have a tendency to blame just everything on US....
If US is responsible for everything...
Then there is no point even discussing things....
After all what can you do in the first place.....
You can not influence US.....
Lets be more realistic...
Things are not as one sided as some of us make them to be....
Social and political phenomenon are complicated affairs....
They orginate through interaction of a host of factors...
Some time contradicting and some time mutually reinforcing factors....

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#213 Posted by jayp on January 21, 2008 2:00:43 am
Polaris successfully placed in intended orbit

Sriharikota (PTI): India on Monday launched an Israeli satellite 'Polaris' from the spaceport at Sriharikota by a homegrown Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle (PSLV) and successfully placed it in the intended orbit, ISRO said.

The PSLV-C10 lifted off from the First Launch Pad (FLP) at the Satish Dhawan Space Centre at 0915 hours with the ignition of the first stage, ISRO said in a statement released here.

////////////////////////////

While India is putting satellites in orbits, Pakistanis are proud of muslims inventing zero, and pakistan is fast reaching that ...zero in anything that has to do with civility.
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#214 Posted by nkg on January 21, 2008 2:04:29 am
Re: # 206
This is similar to claims made by Vinay Katiar of VHP. India was spread upto Turkey, so VHP will claim all the places in Middle East.
There is no point living in past, if we can not learn a single bit from it...

Regarding IT Coolies...A Nice examples...
Please find such coolies in Pakistan...

http://www.forbes.com/finance/mktguideapps/personinfo/FromPersonI dPersonTearsheet.jhtml?passedPersonId=937467

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pad masree_Warrior

http://today.reuters.com/news/articleinvesting.aspx?view=PR&am p;am p;symbol=HPQ.N&storyID=245341+02-May-2007+BW&type=qcna
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#215 Posted by masanamuthu on January 21, 2008 3:56:48 am
Folks I think this article is about US conspiracy to destabilize Pakistan. I'm sick and tired of hearing India's achievements. It is no different than masadi claiming credit for some Muslim inventions / discoveries thousands of years ago.

Though there is some positive change, that is not much of a change for very large sections of the Indian population. We are still long ways to go before claiming any victory.

Ahmedmadani,

please stay and comment. You are one of the sane commenters and bring up good points.

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#216 Posted by shankar on January 21, 2008 4:27:38 am
masadi,

since you are an expert; how would you change policy, hypothetically, if you were the President of Pakistan?
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#217 Posted by arjun_5 on January 21, 2008 4:34:40 am
#195 Posted by nkg on January 20, 2008 8:56:19 pm

That's not even the point...

the point that flew right over masadi's head was this: He keeps claiming the US elite are keeping everyone down. If that was indeed true, how is it that Indians and Chinese are doing quite well in the "US elite" dominated system? Why do Indians and Chinese accomplish so much in the US elite dominated system?
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#218 Posted by zeemax on January 21, 2008 4:56:54 am
#131 Posted by hamidm2

... this is the letter he sent to the negro king of abyssinia and then followed up with letters to other unbelievers :

err ... hamidm FOOL! Muhammad never invaded Abyssinia ... Nor did Umar ... nor anyone else. Why? Because Negus (and not 'negro' ... you racist bigot) gave refuge to the early Muslims before Hijrat. Muhammad never forgot that favour. That letter is an invitation and not a threat FOOL!

But, a threat sounds something like this, and a classic, and the very best speech ever written:

Abu Bakr:

"I have learnt with regret that under the misguidance of the Devil you have apostatized from Islam, the true faith of God.

I am sending to you a Muslim force consisting of the Muhajreen and the Ansar. I have instructed them not to launch the attack against you, without offering you lslam in the first instance. He who repents, re-enters the fold of Islam, desists from hostile activities against Islam, and does good deeds will be forgiven and granted amnesty. He who refuses to accept Islam, and persists in hostilities will be given no quarter. Force will be used against him, and it will not be possible for him to avert that Allah has ordained for him. Such persons will be put to sword, slaughtered, or burnt to death. Their women and children will be taken captive. Nothing short of allegiance to Islam will be accepted.

If after considering this warning, any person seeks his refuge in Islam, such faith will stand him in good stead. But he who persists in his apostasy will never be able to humble God. I have instructed my envoys that they should read this message of mine in public gatherings. Calling the Azan will be regarded as an indication of the acceptance of Islam. If there is no Azan this will be taken to mean that the tribe persists in its apostasy."


Like that? You should quote this one from now on :)
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#219 Posted by tahmed32 on January 21, 2008 5:08:20 am
#170 hamidm: Masadi has already won. At least in terms of destroying your sanity. You were even beginning to sound like him. I believe the scientific name for this disease is Lysosomal Oxidative Whipworm Inflammatory Quatrochowkpostneuropathetic Mesadiitis (or the LOWIQ Masadi for sort). You were exhibiting the early signs of this tragic disease in which the patient starts calling people names while seemingly discussing things normally. In its later stages (which Masadi has started exhibiting lately, I fear), the patient starts writing four posts on chowk (and thus the term "Quatrochowkpostneuropathetic" above) in efforts to prove that the earth is flat.

But never fear. Dr. tahmed is at your service!!
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#220 Posted by tahmed32 on January 21, 2008 5:16:54 am
Masadi writes: "I don't "drop names" to prove something by the name fool".

In that case you drop names for no reason!! Once again - you have been caught red-handed trying to cleverly promote yourself in your never-ending efforts to become achieve greatness through Chowk. You would have to get up pretty early in the morning in order to pull a fast one on Inspector Tahmed!!
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#221 Posted by zeemax on January 21, 2008 5:23:29 am
#205 Posted by jayp

... they also talked about various shades of jihadis ... kashmir jihadis sectarian jihadis afghan jihadis al quida.

Yes yes, but that was before. Now things have changed. Now there're just four umbrella groups after mergers and so forth.

One is the Global agenda fighters who are all non-Afghan and non-Pakistani - a very small core group that's Al Qaida for you. It is no more than a brand name ... an idea ... which is now a global franchise. They don't interfere in Pakistan except giving occasional sermons against Musharraf.

Second is the Taliban who are Afghans and fighting Nato, not Pakistan because their legitimate government was removed by NATO. They have nothing against Pakistan.

Third are the Pakistani Taliban who are all locals and do not want Pakistani State to interfere in their assistance to Afghan Taliban's war, and are now fighting the Pakistani State when it didn't stop its interference. Fair enough.

Fourth are a combination of all the Kashmir Jihadi groups such as Jaish, Tayyaba, Harkatul-Mujahideen, and the sectarian Sipah-e-Sahaba, and Lashkar-e-Jhangvi. These are just settling scores when a free for all is underway. The latter do not have any local or global agenda other than sectarian enmities. This was the group responsible for the Peshawar Imambargah attack.

So, it would be clear exactly 'who' should the Pakistani state be talking to, and 'who' it should be going after. At the moment it is all upside down.

Please update your information in the light of above.
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#222 Posted by tahmed32 on January 21, 2008 5:28:12 am
#195 ahmedmadani: you saying: "I am thinking of not contributing as friends are getting angry with me and I am getting despised. "

Who is despising you sir? How dare anyone despise you!! Tell me his name and I will despise him in return so much he will start remembering his milk of Class Six. Same for getting angry. Thank you sir.
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#223 Posted by tahmed32 on January 21, 2008 5:31:00 am
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#224 Posted by tahmed32 on January 21, 2008 5:32:31 am
zeemax #221 Jayp needs his pills again.
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#225 Posted by masadi on January 21, 2008 5:34:48 am
majumdar writes "Glory days as in when Muslim imperialists were ruling over non-Muslims"

And what makes you think I support any imperialism. If Muslim society falls back to its glory days in order to develop a self concept, that does not mean that I support any kind of imperialism. Note however that you cannot translate today's imperialism or even Western colonialism to "Muslim imperialism", there were qualitative differences between the two.
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#226 Posted by masadi on January 21, 2008 5:36:07 am
tahmed writes "In that case you drop names for no reason!! "

No, I drop names not for the authority of the name but for the ideas expressed by the person, whose book you happened to be reading...fool
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#227 Posted by masadi on January 21, 2008 5:38:20 am
Arjun: a couple of scientists here and there does not mean that Indian and Chinese society is doing well under the US system of domination, those people you mention form less than a fraction of a fraction of a percent of their populations.

Masan... I am not claiming any credit for Muslim scientists of old. Read the posts before you blurt out foolishness. Your friend Arjun didn't believe that any reference books of the past were written by Muslims and challenged me to give him some names, that is what I presented. Now go ___ yourself.
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#228 Posted by tahmed32 on January 21, 2008 5:42:16 am
masadi: you dont need to say someone is your friend in order to do that. another proof of why you couldnt tell the truth if your life depended on it. and your excuse is not even coherent, you genius.
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#229 Posted by masadi on January 21, 2008 5:46:40 am
Fool, I didn't say he was my friend, I said I know him well, and the "knowing" is regarding his comments on my book and that our ideas match. You as a pathetic immoral fool, get stumped by arguments and then start running around fluttering like a chicken with its head cut off.
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#230 Posted by zeemax on January 21, 2008 5:51:42 am
#207 Posted by jayp

Again indian and technology. It was only a few years ago that chowk was flooded with ...

Business or technological progress means nothing without a global Political presence. You know ... people/governments siding with you and all that. Just USA as big daddy is not enough for durable sustenance, because that big daddy itself, even though domestically it will not hurt significantly even in the worst case scenario, is extremely vulnerable economically to carry the others along.

What you consider India's economic headway in Western big business as a huge success, it certainly is, and I wish India well, but it can all vanish in thin air in a breath.

I mentioned CDOs. These are collateralized Debt Obligations backed by Credit Default Swaps written on securitized assets of all sorts which are in turn written on derivatives on the underlying assets, which assets are obscure at best ... and little documentation exists turning these into legal claims.

Credit Default Swaps are the key. All of these are cleared by just ONE Investment bank in the world. All of the trades. If there're defaults in these, that's the meltdown I mentioned earlier. A country like S. Korea needed to seek IMF help after the 1997 currency crisis just because of their writing these default swaps and it couldn't put up with the claims. USA has trillions of dollars of exposures in these instruments.

It's all a house of cards. If you don't believe me, ask SR.
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#231 Posted by tahmed32 on January 21, 2008 5:56:00 am
masadi #229: : So, now you are caught lying again. That is not what you said:

masadi #172 " the author of the book Howard Zinn knows me well"

masadi #229 " I didn't say he was my friend, I said I know him well"

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#232 Posted by iron_mask on January 21, 2008 6:12:47 am
230 posts, and I am non the wiser. Even MP (PM?) has lost me with this article of his.

Will someone enlighten me on

(a) What the US gains by destabilizing Pakistan?
(b) What is it doing to destabilize the country?
(c) who is it employing to do it?

Zeemax? Tahmed32? Masadi? hamidm2? rf786? Ahmedmadani? anyone?

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#233 Posted by anil on January 21, 2008 6:26:48 am
Re: # 137

Hamidm sahib:

"...masadi mian,

...... you should really see a shrink ..... just read what you wrote : ..."

Massaddi Mian needs a brain transplant, even he does not know what he writes. Massaddi Mian should post that paragraph of his writiing on his forehead and walk the street of his town. People will recognize him for his distinguished qualities.
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#234 Posted by anil on January 21, 2008 6:29:33 am
Tahmed sahib:

I have that copy of the Economist at home, I am travelling till first week of Feb, after that I can scan the pages and email to you if you will give me your email address, or anyone else who wants a copy of China - India technology competition and contribution article email me their addresses at: anilkapuria@yahoo.com
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#235 Posted by Pew_Research on January 21, 2008 7:18:03 am
Re: # 234 Anil, Tahmed32:

I am doing a cut and paste since Chowk has blocked hyperlinks. I am including

Here are the first and last articles (in order) from The Economist's Special Report on India and China

The link is (perhaps only for subscribers):http://www.economist.com/specialreports/displaystory.cfm?story_id=1 0053169

Running fast
Nov 8th 2007
From The Economist print edition

China and India have much to offer the world of technology, argues Simon Cox (interviewed here), but more still to gain from it

The Royal Society
TOWARDS the end of the 11th century, while tardy Europeans kept time with sundials, Su Sung of China completed his masterpiece: a water clock of great intricacy and accuracy. Standing almost 12 metres (40 feet) tall, Su's “Cosmic Engine� wavered, it is said, by only a few minutes in every 24 hours. From twin tanks filled by servants, a steady flow of water was cupped and spilled by a series of buckets mounted on a wheel. The rotation of the wheel turned the clock, as well as an astronomical sphere and globe that charted the movement of the sun, moon and planets. Drums beat 100 times a day; bells chimed every two hours. A replica, painstakingly built with contemporary methods, now turns in Taiwan's National Museum of Natural Science.

Clockmaking was only one scientific endeavour in which China and India comfortably led the world before the 15th century. China outstripped Europe in its understanding of hydraulics, ironsmelting and shipbuilding. Its machines for ginning cotton, spinning ramie and throwing silk seemed to lack only a flying shuttle and a drawbar to match the 18th-century contraptions that launched Britain's Industrial Revolution. Clean your teeth with a toothbrush, rebuff the rain with a collapsible umbrella, turn a playing card, light a match, write, pay—or even wipe your behind—with paper, and you register a debt to China's powers of invention.

India's genius, then as now, was in software not hardware. Its ancient civilisations ushered in a “mathematical revolution� from the fifth century, when Aryabhata devised something like the decimal system. In the seventh century Brahmagupta explained that a number multiplied by zero was zero. By the 15th century, Madhava had calculated pi to more than ten decimal places.

After the 15th century, however, the technological clock stopped in both countries, even as it accelerated in Europe. This peculiar loss of momentum, noted Joseph Needham, a great historian of Chinese science, takes some explaining. Why, he asked, did the science of Galileo emerge “in Pisa but not in Patna or Peking�?

In his book “The Lever of Riches�, Joel Mokyr settles on a simple explanation for China's technological stagnation: the country's imperial state lost interest. Its purposes were better served by continuity than by progress, and there was no rival source of power and patronage to pick up the threads it dropped. Roddam Narasimha of India's National Institute of Advanced Studies reaches a similar conclusion for India. “Up to the 18th century, the East in general was strong and prosperous, the status quo was comfortable, and there was no great internal pressure to change the global order,� he writes.

That diffidence no longer hampers either state. Both China and India are now restless with technological ambition. China's government does not have the luxury of choosing between progress and stability; it cannot enjoy social peace without economic advance. For the past 30 years it has tried to turn the clock forward. By 2015 its research scientists and engineers may outnumber those of any other country. By 2020 it aims to spend a bigger share of its GDP on research and development (R&D) than the European Union.

India, for its part, surveys the future with uncharacteristic optimism. Its technological confidence has grown immeasurably thanks to the success of its software and IT firms. The heirs to Aryabhata and Brahmagupta, India's digital ambassadors have won acclaim for their mastery of ones as well as zeros.

But even as India's technological powers make a splash in the world, they stir only the surface of its own vast society. India produces more engineering graduates than America. But it has only 24 personal computers for every 1,000 people, and fewer than three broadband connections. India's billion-strong population cuts both ways. Whenever an Indian demographic appears as a numerator, the resulting number looks big. But whenever its population is in the denominator, the number looks small. It is like looking at the same phenomenon from opposite ends of a telescope. As of now, India matters more to technology than technology does to India.

This is a pity. India and China still have more to gain from the adoption and assimilation of technology than from invention per se. Some of their best minds are adding generously to the world's stock of knowledge, but the more urgent task for the countries themselves is to make wider use of know-how that already exists. Indeed, the World Bank has calculated that India could quintuple the size of its economy if it only caught up with itself—that is, if the mediocre firms in its industries closed the gap with the best. Both countries miss out when policies to promote invention, such as China's push for “indigenous� innovation or India's recent patent laws, serve to stymie diffusion.

A year in China, foreign residents say, is like ten years outside. Its clock is already turning rapidly. But the cogs and levers that drive technological progress are as intricate and delicate as Su Sung's mechanism. China's government is in danger of trying to do too much. Its monumental efforts to educate and train have filled the tanks of its innovation engine. Now it is time for it just to let the water flow.



TECHNOLOGY IN INDIA AND CHINA

Splendid miscegenation
Nov 8th 2007
From The Economist print edition

Something borrowed, something true


“IF YOU can clean it, you can scribble on it,� says Sridhar Vedantham of Microsoft Research India. Many of the dividing walls in the group's handsome Bengalooru office are made of glass, and much of the glass is decorated with doodles, questions, deductions and equations. One of five Microsoft research laboratories around the world, it employs over 40 researchers, from cryptologists to anthropologists, working on a range of problems, from code-breaking to rural computing. The group has “both the obligation and the licence� to think beyond Microsoft's bottom line, says its founder P. Anandan, an expert on computer visuals. As the writing on the walls suggests, the researchers enjoy a lot of freedom to think and express themselves, to burst with the kind of ideas that are best had standing up.

Imaginechina

Winsome consumption
India is now host to R&D centres for over 100 multinational firms, according to the OECD. The country ranked as the sixth most popular location in a recent survey of some of the biggest R&D spenders in the corporate world (see chart 6). China does even better: it has over 750 centres. Some, like Microsoft's lab in Beijing, pursue blue-skies “R�; most busy themselves with practical “D�. Quite a few were set up to win government favour: “PR&D�, as it is called.

Other foreign companies outsource bits of R&D to “contract research� outfits. In Bengalooru Clinigene carries out clinical trials on India's plentiful supply of patients. In Shanghai WuXi PharmaTech employs 2,600 people helping the big pharmaceutical companies, such as AstraZeneca, to find new compounds and develop new drugs. Far from scribbling on the windows, its scientists are forbidden even to note down the formula for a chemical compound when they enter the firm's central facilities. They must write in code, so that the firm's other scientists, working for other clients, cannot understand their jottings.

In the company's laboratories, rotary evaporators turn, separating substances from solvents. Thanks to China and India, innovation has undergone a similar process of division and separation. The chemists, clinics and engineers the two countries can offer have relieved multinational companies of some of the labours of bringing a new product into the world.

In his lab, Mr Anandan tries to turn India's bright sparks into original thinkers. A true researcher, he says, is someone who does not want to work for someone else—though he might not mind being paid by someone else. Mr Anandan takes particular pleasure in watching his charges lose their exaggerated reverence for the leading scholars in their field. From a distance, it is easy to imagine such luminaries are “seven-foot giants�, he says, and that you will be “burnt by their aura�. But he long since discovered they were shorter than he was—and often just as confused.

Richard Freeman of Harvard University worries that America's technological pretensions will also be cut down to size by the growth of Asia's scientific workforce, and the stagnation of America's. In 1970, he notes, America granted over half of the world's PhDs in science and engineering. By 2010, that share will fall to just 15%. Moreover, almost a third of science and engineering students in American graduate schools in 2005 were foreign. Such numbers prompt Mr Freeman to ask: are we helping them to catch up, or are they helping us to stay ahead?

The fears of the leaders and the latecomers mirror each other. The leaders worry that when a company such as Microsoft looks for the best minds to stock its research laboratories, it no longer confines itself to Europe, Japan or America. It also alights on Bengalooru and Beijing. The Chinese worry that when their best students look for a place to apply their talents, they do not turn to China's domestic champions. They flock to foreign firms instead. When Microsoft unveiled its Beijing lab in 1998, one local newspaper described it as a “talent enclosure movement�.

India's traditional fear of multinationals has eased in recent years. Now China more than India is prey to “techno-nationalists�. Its accomplishments do not satisfy them, because none is pure-bred. The country's technology stock is thoroughly miscegenated. Even its vaunted 3G-telephony standard has a German accent.

Piggyfrogging
This special report has found much to fan the fears of the techno-nationalists: India and China's precocious economies have done more piggybacking than leapfrogging. They have made clever use of foreign technology—assembling it, copying it, servicing it and customising it—but their firms have yet to create very much to rival it. The nationalists may fret about this, but an economist instead finds much to applaud. A country should face the risks and frustrations of invention only when it has no easier route to economic progress.

Magnum

Chinese invention lights up the skyBesides, firms enjoy great scope for innovation, even if they do not march across the technological frontier. Indian and Chinese firms have a comparative advantage in finding new uses for existing technologies, and combining them in novel ways. This kind of “architectural innovation� may be scientifically modest, but it can nonetheless be commercially significant. This was, after all, how Japan's electronics firms came to dominate their market.

In making this kind of innovation, both countries can draw inspiration from their vast ranks of adventurous consumers, who may be a greater spur to technological creativity than any number of white coats or government exhortations. This is one reason why a nation's technological fortunes rest as much on its powers of adoption as they do on its powers of invention. The shallow penetration of computing in India and the retarded spread of 3G phones in China should trouble their policymakers as much as the number of patents filed or scientific papers cited.

Besides, now that R&D is globalised, what does it mean to say that a technology is “invented in India or China�? What counts as “indigenous innovation�? India's Nicholas Piramal uses Swiss machines to study Indian herbs, thereby adding to a bio-library it bought from a German multinational. India's TCS serves a Canadian bank, drawing on workers from Canada, America and India, using a software application from Switzerland. “Do you call it 'made in India'?� asks S. Ramadorai, the company's chief executive.

Like the electrons passing through a chip, knowledge can circulate between countries. But just as silicon must be “doped� before it will conduct, so developing countries must mix imported knowledge with ideas of their own before they can truly assimilate them.

If that is what China means by “indigenous innovation�, then it will continue to prosper. If it is ready to mix and match, and to learn from foreigners and, most important of all, from its own consumers, it will thrive. But the state should not fancy that technology can be owned from bottom to top, or that innovation can be accomplished by decree. And in a country that still censors the internet and distrusts the free flow of information, knowledge does not yet conduct as well as it might.

China's Ministry of Science and Technology recently held a meeting with the OECD in Beijing to discuss the country's “innovation system�. One local participant left feeling a bit dissatisfied. Presentations were given; discussion ensued; careful assessments of China's patents, publications and PhDs were offered. But he was tempted to ask a simpler, perhaps more pertinent question: could someone please help me unlock Wikipedia?

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#236 Posted by arjun_5 on January 21, 2008 7:38:28 am
#227 Posted by masadi on January 21, 2008 5:38:20 am

masadi...it's been clearly proven to you that the mathematician you named carried the most important concepts of the indian numeral system, the zero and the place value system, to the west ....so for you to say that the person who carried the knowledge gets more credit than the person who invented it is totally bogus..only an islamist would buy it..

let's make one thing clear..I think mo abu-ibn-whateva, the guy you named, is a great mathematician. He learnt from other cultures and expanded upon that knowledge..that's a GOOD thing...unlike mo's homies of today who blame the man for keeping him down, mo abu-ibn-whateva realized that knowledge isn't a finite resource...if you have knowledge and you give it to me, now we both have knowledge.

again: the point still stands...if the "US elite" is keeping everyone down, how come Indian and Chinese people are doing well enough to write books that are read by the children of the US elite keeping them down?
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#237 Posted by arjun_5 on January 21, 2008 7:42:20 am
#235 Posted by Pew_Research on January 21, 2008 7:18:03 am

ouch...you're going to have to send a preparation-H to gaithesburg, MD...attn: prophet tahmed(peace be unto his self-righteous left butt cheek)...
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#238 Posted by anil on January 21, 2008 9:25:57 am
Re: # 236

Massaddi Mian:

"...He learnt from other cultures and expanded upon that knowledge..that's a GOOD thing..."

And this is coming from Arjun.

You must re-train you mind to concentrate on this aspect instead, and not in enrichening your brain with "next abuse of the day" that you can hurl at the others.

Improve your class, and also learn that "the Second World" disappeared before you emerged out of diapers. If you are living in the Third World it is entirely your creation.

Wow, what a Creator you are. You must be mighty proud of yourself. I suspect your friend OBL, or a variety of him, may indeed like you to join them. They are busy creating the latest "Third World" somewhere on this Earth.
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#239 Posted by SR on January 21, 2008 10:07:45 am
Re: # 230 zee ["... It's all a house of cards. If you don't believe me, ask SR ..."]

Okay, I'll take the bait this time.

YES, we know, your emperor's cloths ARE see through.

It IS a house of cards, so to speak.

And, if I may be so bold as to add that I'm glad that more and more of you banker types are being honest enough to acknowledge this in public. Next thing I might find is that your ilk even starts suggesting that in a fiat monetary system it always ends up being so.

God forbid, you might even come around to entertaining the possibility of monetization of gold.

...SR

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#240 Posted by masadi on January 21, 2008 10:24:21 am
tahmed writes "masadi #229: : So, now you are caught lying again. That is not what you said:

masadi #172 " the author of the book Howard Zinn knows me well"

masadi #229 " I didn't say he was my friend, I said I know him well""


This is the best this sorry fool can muster against my arguments whether Zinn knows me well or I know him well, amazing and quite pathetic and he terms this a "lie". Ha ha, these fools like anil, arjun hamid and most of all tahmed amaze me, read their posts and the content which has absolutely zero substance. The fool arjun challenges me to name some names, I do, he does not, and then he picks up on the sifr and that is the end of that, the zero is one tiny part of what the Muslims achieved with algebra, trignometry and geometry, and that small part would have died a short death were Muslims of the middle ages not the globalizers of knowledge. You can take these facts of history and shut the hell up or you can keep grovelling like a two year old whose mama dropped him on his head after birth...
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#241 Posted by masadi on January 21, 2008 10:27:14 am
Iron mask asks "Will someone enlighten me on

(a) What the US gains by destabilizing Pakistan? "

After hearing the whole tale, the genius asks if Juliet was the man or the woman.....which world are you living in fool, what would a stable Pakistan be like viz a viz Afghanistan, Iran, the Pakistan Army and even India and China....think about this and how this regional stability can affect US hegemony, or you might as well ask what did the US gain by destabalizing Iraq....
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#242 Posted by masadi on January 21, 2008 10:29:31 am
anil writes "Improve your class"

I have more class in my little pinky finger than you can muster ten generations on either side (front and back) of your dimwitted mentality, offspring and ancestors....now go __ yourself, people of your mentality don't understand decent conversation, they need to be spoken to in the language they understand...
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#243 Posted by masadi on January 21, 2008 10:38:09 am
anil writes ""...He learnt from other cultures and expanded upon that knowledge..that's a GOOD thing..."

And this is coming from Arjun.

You must re-train you mind to concentrate on this aspect instead"

Where do you think the bigot argum in his 230 something post get this idea from. From what I had state in post #159

(quote)the most anyone came to monopolizing it were the Muslims of the middle ages because unlike the Indian, Western and Chinese minds of the age their minds were free of superstition and bigotry so they could use the work of ohters and build upon it.(end quote)

Closet bigots like you anil support your own kind like arjun who leaves not a stone unturned to spew his hatred, and then descend on others like vultures with all kinds of lies. You are a sorry excuse for a human being...
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#244 Posted by anil on January 21, 2008 10:41:11 am
Re: # 242

Massaddi Mian:

"... go __ yourself ..."

Do you realize how many times you have used it today?

What is your mantra for tomorrow?
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#245 Posted by masadi on January 21, 2008 10:45:47 am
For you its going to be "go __ off"
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#246 Posted by zeemax on January 21, 2008 10:46:01 am
#239 Posted by SR,

Next thing I might find is that your ilk even starts suggesting that in a fiat monetary system it always ends up being so ... you might even come around to entertaining the possibility of monetization of gold.

Yes, SR, a fiat monetary system is bound to end up in this. I never denied that. All I had said was that a fiat monetary system enables rapid growth, and it does. But then, you can't prevent huge economic upheavals and social unrest with its consequences.

Monetizing of Gold is not the answer. I wish you would get rid of your hangup with gold. It could be copper or any other metal. It's the same. What counts is intrinsic value in the end.

That's why I support the Islamic economic system (and not Islamic Banking BTW. There's no such thing in Islam). That is all based on 'value', and not paper.

But you hate Islam so you will never understand that, nor even attempt to, and I accept that as a reality which, unfortunately, you are in significant and large company.
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#247 Posted by masadi on January 21, 2008 10:54:33 am
shankar writes "how would you change policy, hypothetically, if you were the President of Pakistan? "

Very simple, read my post on the MLK thread regarding Malcolm X.
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#248 Posted by anil on January 21, 2008 10:56:58 am
Re: # 245

Massaddi Mian:

You seem to be creative in inventing mantra.

Please don't create a "Third World", the Second World had disappeared, before you emerged from diapers.

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#249 Posted by masadi on January 21, 2008 11:03:38 am
Anil writes "Please don't create a "Third World", the Second World had disappeared, before you emerged from diapers."

I know you still wear diapers in your adult age but when the SU "disappeared" I was well past puberty and in college. The Middle Class shrinking and disappering does not mean the haves and have-nots have ceased to exist. Get a brain fool, except for a handful of Western "white" nations and a couple of their tiny occupied lands and a couple of city states the rest of the majority world is in shambles, well over 50% of the world's population and over 86% of Indias lives under $2 a day. The "Third World" caused by the "First" (their terminology) is a fact whether you dimwitted mind realizes it or not.
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#250 Posted by anil on January 21, 2008 11:08:26 am
Re: # 249

Massaddi Mian:

It seems you are so challenged that you only like to talk to yourself. You need to change this too.

You have picked up a few words. Rest of your vocabulary is few "old recycles", and mind is spent on creating "new mantra" for daily abuse.

Just do not become narssisitic.
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#251 Posted by chaltahai on January 21, 2008 11:14:10 am
where is the middle class disappeaning? It is growing in India and china..who cares about the muslim world. if they cannot get with the program...their problem.
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#252 Posted by chaltahai on January 21, 2008 11:24:15 am
massadi doesn't understand..he can't...at no time in the hsitory of humanity have more people on a % basis or in absolute numbers have access to wealth, better health, longer life spans than now. life is getting better but for the islamocommunist chuckleheads
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#253 Posted by masadi on January 21, 2008 11:36:25 am
Only people who are illiterate and "data challenged" (not to mention retards) will claim that the world and its population is getting richer and better on any indicator of social well being. It is very easy to talk of on a "% basis" as this illiterate below does knowing full well that even if the percentage of the poor remains stable the absolute numbers of them increase by leaps and bounds due to rising population from earlier times which means more overall misery for humanity....
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#254 Posted by masadi on January 21, 2008 11:39:02 am
This is the best scholarship the sum total of Indians have been able to produce, I by my lonesome have clobbered the sum total of them combined and then they make big claims for "Reference book writers" from India and the IT miracle. Read these posts and deal with your shame...you are a bunch of morons the sum total of you here, I can just hope that the ones left back home in India have more to offer or your damn country is doomed
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#255 Posted by iron_mask on January 21, 2008 11:40:48 am
Re: # 241
Masadi mian,

thats right - tell me what EXACTLY would US gain by destabilising pakistan? Iraq I can understand - the arabs are a diffcult bunch to tame and buy - also they needed to be taught a lesson that YOU NEVER EVER TAKE ON THE US and try to fight it by killing innocents - it will snd the arabs back to Neanderthalism. As a side benefit it gets access to oil.
What is there is Pakistan ? The educated/elite pakistanis are known to sell their souls for a few dollars - so why go to the trouble of destabilising it when it can be bought.

You need to ask yourself the Juliet question - Masadi? Are you man or eunuch - in bought cases the US buys your ass for Upliftment - they have the wherewithal for that.
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#256 Posted by anil on January 21, 2008 11:51:35 am
Re: # 253

Massaddi Mian:

"...the world and its population is getting richer and better ..."

Your emphasis is on the world. Correct?
You are so confused that you cannot comprehend what others are saying here.

BTW, you gave away your physical age.

What did you do to your mind?
Why did you let it stop from growing too?
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#257 Posted by masadi on January 21, 2008 11:54:16 am
Iron mask writes "Iraq I can understand - the arabs are a diffcult bunch to tame and buy - also they needed to be taught a lesson that YOU NEVER EVER TAKE ON THE US and try to fight it by killing innocents "

Which world are you living in moron, the US and its satellite Israel has been killing innocents ever since its inception, the US has been interfering in the economy and political setup of those nation states that were created by colonial decree, and then you accuse the Arabs on "taking on the US" when practically half of it either hosts US troops on the ground or is totally in the back pocket of the US. We can talk when you get your facts straight moron. The US has designs on Iran, it is in Afghanistan, it has long term plans regarding the Russians and the Chinese, a stable Pakistan interferes with these designs, especially since ruling it from a distance through the Pakistan Army has proven to be more difficult with every successive coup. Regarding Iraq, Kuwait would have relented from its illegal position pre Saddam invasion but the US wanted the war, a war financed by the other Arabs for the purpose of destabalizing the region and killing innocents therefore it pushed aside every single effort for peace before the war and caused greater destruction and killing than anything Saddam could have ever accomplished in Kuwait ever- and it were lies then and lies before the 2003 war again. Morons like you wont get it...
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#258 Posted by philosopher on January 21, 2008 11:54:34 am
Re: # 252

chaltahai utters this filth..

{at no time in the hsitory of humanity have more people on a % basis or in absolute numbers have access to wealth, better health, longer life spans than now. life is getting better but for the islamocommunist chuckleheads }



Armchair optimists like chaltahai have always been fond of statistics, percentage, and avergaes. chaltahai ji...statistics are like miniskirts...they reveal something but they conceal the most crucial part that matters at the end of the day{in the night}

'If a rich man{ like hamid ghadaar} eats a whole chicken(nadeedon ki tarah} and a poor man eats nothing ,on average, they eat half a chicken each.

be optimistic...hamid's gutter is full.
world is getting better.






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#259 Posted by philosopher on January 21, 2008 11:54:39 am
Re: # 252

chaltahai utters this filth..

{at no time in the hsitory of humanity have more people on a % basis or in absolute numbers have access to wealth, better health, longer life spans than now. life is getting better but for the islamocommunist chuckleheads }



Armchair optimists like chaltahai have always been fond of statistics, percentage, and avergaes. chaltahai ji...statistics are like miniskirts...they reveal something but they conceal the most crucial part that matters at the end of the day{in the night}

'If a rich man{ like hamid ghadaar} eats a whole chicken(nadeedon ki tarah} and a poor man eats nothing ,on average, they eat half a chicken each.

be optimistic...hamid's gutter is full.
world is getting better.






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#260 Posted by masadi on January 21, 2008 11:57:42 am
#256, anil, the world and its population is not getting better and richer, a tiny minority might be but not the world, especially given the enhanced wealth produced not by this elite but by the majority world that is being stolen from them by the rich nations and their economic system. Do not try to attribute words to me that I never said.
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#261 Posted by philosopher on January 21, 2008 11:59:16 am
Re: # 246 zeemax's reply to SR

'But you hate Islam so you will never understand that, nor even attempt to, and I accept that as a reality which, unfortunately, you are in significant and large company.
}

why are you wasting your time on a man who is not even a new low in stupidity and superficiality.

Btw. aap ka qournash maabdoaulat kay darbaar aalia mien tasleem kiya jata hai. mogambo khush hua.

lol...you still remeber that Qournash?

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#262 Posted by anil on January 21, 2008 12:00:48 pm
Re: # 260

Massaddi Mian"

"...the world and its population is getting richer and better ..."

These are your own words. You will see the world, only when you will quit creating new "Third World", and start have a very your own dream, and go onto realizing it.

I have said that you have a beautiful mind. Just mis-using it.
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#263 Posted by masadi on January 21, 2008 12:03:10 pm
anil writes "Massaddi Mian"

"...the world and its population is getting richer and better ..."


Don't lie fool I have never claimed that the world and its population is getting richer and better that was chaltahai and I merely quote him to refute him. You are a third rate liar.
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#264 Posted by tahmed32 on January 21, 2008 12:03:32 pm
masadi #240 you write "This is the best this sorry fool can muster against my arguments whether Zinn knows me well or I know him well"

You are lying again!! The issue is not whether Zinn knows you or you know Zinn (as you say above). As I told you, I couldnt care less. The issue is this - I caught you lying (yet again). And that "best" is good enough to expose you for the habitual liar that you are.
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#265 Posted by masadi on January 21, 2008 12:04:35 pm
This is what I wrote in #253 and this reading challenged idiot claims I was saying the world is getting richer and better:

---
#253 Posted by masadi on January 21, 2008 11:36:25 am
Only people who are illiterate and "data challenged" (not to mention retards) will claim that the world and its population is getting richer and better on any indicator of social well being. It is very easy to talk of on a "% basis" as this illiterate below does knowing full well that even if the percentage of the poor remains stable the absolute numbers of them increase by leaps and bounds due to rising population from earlier times which means more overall misery for humanity....
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#266 Posted by masadi on January 21, 2008 12:07:23 pm
tahmed writes "The issue is this - I caught you lying (yet again). "

BS. You claimed that I said he was my friend. I said no such thing I had said he knew me well, no big difference between I know him well and he knows me well. You are picking on this because the sorry fool you are you cannot counter any single argument and instead of your own lie claiming that I said he is my friend you pick on a simple slip that has almost zero real difference in any meaning. Now go __ yourself. You all are so pathetic that it amazes me the kinds of posts you come up with to counter mine...
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#267 Posted by masadi on January 21, 2008 12:13:26 pm
Leaving aside the semantics which have a zero difference in meaning, the 100% truth is that he knows me well enough to have read my book, communicated with me and taken time out to write a detailed review, and I know him well enough based on the same interaction. Tahmed cannot counter a single argument I come up with against his baseless fluff regarding the US, so he reads every word of my sentence claims that I said that Zinn is my friend, he certainly is not. I correct that and state that I only stated that I know him well (when I had stated that he knows me well), and this snake claims that I am caught in a lie. Now you see how sorry his argumentation is. He is the actual liar claiming that I said Zinn was my friend and he is a bigger liar when he uses this BS in order to discredit my arguments claiming that I am a "habitual liar".

Now you understand why I say that people like this moron are the real enemy of the people? They will try all kinds of lies like the Bush WMD lie when they are stumped by facts
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#268 Posted by tahmed32 on January 21, 2008 12:17:15 pm
#266 masadi: Trouble with you liars is - when caught lying, you try to get away by piling another lie on top of it. and then another. all you get is a heap of lies.

So, in #266 you have merely added another lie when you said that you "said no such thing" about whatshisface being your friend. What does "Zinn knows me well" imply if not that he is your friend (or at least an admirer)???

Now, you can add another lie to the pile in trying to explain the above...
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#269 Posted by masadi on January 21, 2008 12:18:52 pm
Knowing someone well DOES NOT mean that the person is your friend. You claimed that I said that when I did not. You tahmed are the lair and a moron as well/
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#270 Posted by tahmed32 on January 21, 2008 12:19:02 pm
#257 OK. So provide a link to the "detailed review" he wrote about your book. That would be a start to back your claim.
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#271 Posted by tahmed32 on January 21, 2008 12:21:01 pm
#269 Fine. So lets see the detailed review. This is your chance to redeem yourself for the lies you have written since this morning.
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#272 Posted by masadi on January 21, 2008 12:22:24 pm
Moron, nobody posts the entire review except magazines, book seller sites, as well as publishers only use excerpts of the review and I have already provided a link to that on Amazon. It is printed on the back cover of the book. Now go __ yourself. I have not written a single lie, you are the habitual liar like your masters who have overtaken the world based on lies and fool their own people based on them.
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#273 Posted by anil on January 21, 2008 12:26:46 pm
Re: # 263

Massaddi Mian:

Please have yourself for dyslexia also.

while at it kindly let me know who is claiming that "the world" is getting richer?

I clarified with you that in your sentence "World" was the operative word.

When you are busy creating the new "Third World", I am certain you can see that you cannot be a positive contributor to wealth creation that makes the "World" richer.

I have one more question, who has authorized you to create new "Third World", that you are so busy forming?

Can you not increase your vocabulary, if you cannot increase your knowledge?
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#274 Posted by tahmed32 on January 21, 2008 12:28:19 pm
#272 you are lying again. You said that Zinn wrote a "detailed review" of your book. And you refuse to post it by writing this piece of gibberish: "nobody posts the entire review"!! The pile of lies keeps getting higher and higher....
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#275 Posted by masadi on January 21, 2008 12:29:01 pm
#273- I have decided not to waste time responding to posts of morons who cannot understand simple sentences. I was given good advice to ignore posts by intellectual inferiors that I have ignored to my own detriment. Like I siad to you earlier go __ yourself. I never claimed that the world is getting either better or richer, you just don't know how to read like the vast majority of your countrymen here and other morons like tahmed...
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#276 Posted by anil on January 21, 2008 12:29:05 pm
Re: # 272

Massaddi Mian:

"...Now go __ yourself...."

One more use.

How many more to go, before new day with new mantra begins?
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#277 Posted by tahmed32 on January 21, 2008 12:30:43 pm
anil sahib: greetings. Massadi is preparing a pile of lies that is becoming higher than the Leaning Tower of Pisa - and even more shaky. Let us pray for his good health and recovery from this terrible disease of fibbing. :-(
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#278 Posted by masadi on January 21, 2008 12:31:41 pm
The review is published on the back cover of the book by the publisher, the parts that he decided to use. People who read my posts here know that I NEVER lie, unlike morons like tahmed who are caught lying again and again, because their entire lives are based on the mythology that descrbes the worldview of the US elite, democracy and freedom where none exists....
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#279 Posted by tahmed32 on January 21, 2008 12:34:10 pm
masadi #275 So, your piling one lie on another didnt work. then piling gibberish didnt work. so now you have decided to walk away fron the Leaning Tower of Dishonest Masadi that you were building. That is good. The first step towards your rehabilitation. I shall let brother Anil take over from here.
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#280 Posted by tahmed32 on January 21, 2008 12:38:49 pm
#278 masadi: "People who read my posts here know that I NEVER lie"

no kidding!! ha! ha!

ps: in #275 you said you were not going to respond to any more posts I wrote. and a couple of minutes later, your post #278 made that a lie too!! the pile of lies just got higher...
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#281 Posted by tahmed32 on January 21, 2008 12:39:50 pm
over to you Anil...bye Masadi. Make sure you look under the bed before you go to sleep - the Evil Elite may be hiding there.....
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#282 Posted by chaltahai on January 21, 2008 12:40:48 pm
Indians are better off than they were before the reforms of 1991, the chinese are better off than they were before the reforms of 1978. that is 2/5th of humanity right there..future for these people is better than it has even been in the history of these people. For iNdians it was no different whether the british ruled or the mughals or ashoka..or whomever..Indians were always poor. when India controlled 25% of global trades in teh late 1700's, indians were still poor. treasuries of the kings and emperors never meant distribution of wealth...globalization push lead by the US has benefited Indians more than any other system known to man or god.
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#283 Posted by masadi on January 21, 2008 12:55:17 pm
The world has not seen greater wealth amidst so much poverty, distributed among so few ever in its history before. More Indians and Chinese in absolute numbers are in the gutter today than ever before in the history of the world. More people are enslaved due to the concentrated ownership of means of production and wealth than ever before in the history of the world. More people die every single day around 45,000 a day, according to conservative estimates, of preventible causes, than ever before in the history of the world.
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#284 Posted by anil on January 21, 2008 1:19:19 pm
Re: # 283

Massaddi Mian:

".....The world has not seen greater wealth...."

Finally!!! You acnkowledge.

Your exercise for tomorrow is to acknowledge that:
"the world has not seen greater KNOWLEDGE."

So,
Where have you been Massaddi Mian?
What is your dream, Massaddi Mian?
Are you messing up the beautiful minds of others, you have no business messing up young minds?
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#285 Posted by chaltahai on January 21, 2008 1:29:15 pm
that is because there are more indians and chinese than ever before..but growth raes are leveling off in India and china massadhi. More people die because there are more people to die. preventable diseases like the plague killed a lot more of the population than aids. Influenza killed a lot more than ebola. what is your fking bro..FOOL!

Concentrated ownership? wealth has always been concentrated in the hands of the few...the good thing is that the US culture of meritocracy, innovation, access to capital allows people to use the system to make their lives better.

Ever year 10M+ indians come out of poverty. Mroe in china..all ebcause of the globalization push of the US.

You live in the fools world which imagines redistribution of wealth that belives in everyone in the world is created equal. they are not..if that was a case..I wouldn't be doing what I do and living a life that I lead and you wouldn't be sitting in a third rate gov't college in pakistan spouting idiotic musings. It's not fair..but blame your genes..not the US
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#286 Posted by arjun_5 on January 21, 2008 2:40:03 pm
Is it just me or is pureland's debt going up?? maybe it's down as a % of the cooked GDP numbers..

External debt to rise to $46.571bn by 2011-12

By Sajid Chaudhry

ISLAMABAD: External debt of the country to reach $46.571 billion by the end of fiscal year 2011-12 from $39.593 billion by the end of the current fiscal year 2007-08.

Ministry of finance is targeting to bring down external debt to exports ratio from 175.2 percent in the fiscal 2007-08 to 143.4 percent by the end of fiscal year 2011-12.

Estimates agreed by International Monetary Fund (IMF) and ministry of finance reveal that external debt to export ratio was 243.9 percent in the fiscal year 2002-03, which has been brought down to 220.5 percent in fiscal year 2003-04, 191.2 percent in the fiscal year 2004-05, 175.6 in the fiscal year 2005-06, 176.7 percent in the fiscal year 2006-07.

External debt was $35.679 billion by the end of fiscal year 2005-06; it increased to $37.461 by the end of fiscal 2006-07 and would reach 39.593 billion by the end of current fiscal year.
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#287 Posted by arjun_5 on January 21, 2008 2:41:03 pm
What happened to no trade unless we get kashmir?

I'll bet some of this is going to build the dams the indian government is planning on the rivers that run from Indian Kashmir into pureland...

Pakistani cement exporters lose earnings due to cutthroat competition

* Value of Pakistani cement exports to India has fallen from $74 to $70 per tonne during the last few weeks due to competition amongst the exporters

Staff Report

KARACHI: The value of Pakistani cement exports to India has fallen from $74 to $70 per tonne during the last few weeks due to competition amongst the exporters, said an industry source here on Monday.

“Pakistani cement makers are fetching less value for their products from buyers abroad because they are competing with each other unnecessarily,� said a top official of a cement-exporting firm. “It is unnecessary competition because the demand from Indian buyers is more than our capacity to export to them.�

He said the realizable value is higher than the local firms are currently getting. “The buyers there can offer much more to us,� he said.

While the cement exported through land route is fetching $70 per tonne, the cement sent by sea is now priced at $63 per tonne as compared to $65 per tonne four to six weeks ago.

Similar is the case of cement exports to the Middle East. Whereas the Pakistani companies were selling their products to Middle East buyers at $62 per tonne, now they are shipping for only $60 per tonne, another industry source said.
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#288 Posted by masadi on January 21, 2008 3:55:30 pm
chalta writes "More people die because there are more people to die."

Here you have it the morality of the "best minds" (more like retards compared to the rest of the world) from India, more people die says he because there are more to die. The idiot does not want to acknowledge the fact that more are dying NEEDLESSLY, due to preventible causes because of distribution mismatch because of a system set in motion by the US elite that is based on greed and inhumanity.
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#289 Posted by shishapa on January 21, 2008 4:16:28 pm
Re: # 288

masadi,

How is highligting the faults of US elites on this
website going to change that reality?
How do you plan to eradicate the scourge of US elites?
Are you accomplishing your goals using other means as well?
Just asking.

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#290 Posted by bubba on January 21, 2008 4:37:28 pm
Re: # 170 Posted by hamidm2 on January 20, 2008 7:09:38 pm

[tahmed,

..... one more thing - we, that is you and i, need to stand united against masadi .... he is the real enemy who threatens our children and our sanity ........]

hamid mian, why are you ganging up on masadi? how is he threatening your sanity? Are you afraid that you might get the masadi complex? What is it in masadi that makes you so afraid?
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#291 Posted by masadi on January 21, 2008 5:30:44 pm
shishapa "masadi,

How is highligting the faults of US elites on this
website going to change that reality?"

Someday someone from this website might be able to pass through the corridors of power and be able to do something, until that time let me try to educate and whatever opportunity I get to implement. As you can see hamid and tahmed, similar to mainstream morons that perpetuate US mythology around the globe for perpetuating slavery, have been thoroughly and completely defeated, look at their frustration and their total inability to counter simple arguments. The weak foundations based on which the US elite have established their empire of tyranny will similarly collapse....until then let me speak the truth for the truth shatters the very source of the evil these people perpetuate in order to deny people what is their right, a decent existance, not one of deprivation as the shaitan's system has perpetuated across the globe...
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#292 Posted by Pew_Research on January 21, 2008 5:40:26 pm
A 'delightful' article from Europe! 'Well' done, Pakis!

"Whereas radicals of North African origin have long been the main jihadist threat in Europe, Spanish authorities say 12 of the 14 men arrested Saturday are Pakistani. The reason that's so troubling, counterterrorism officials believe, comes with the considerable risk of two different arching lines eventually crossing: the fast-growing size of Pakistani communities on the continent, and their close ties to a homeland where Islamist radicalism is rampant.
...The concern across Europe is we'll soon be facing the same kind of threat Britain has been fighting for several years now," explains a French counterterrorism official, referring to Pakistani communities within the U.K. whose cohesion and relative insulation have inadvertently created niches for virulent extremist activity well hidden from outside eyes. "What this means is growing numbers of tightly knit Pakistani immigrants around Europe who maintain close and frequent contact with people back home. Against that background, the eventuality of surging radicalism in Pakistan spreading to Pakistanis communities in Europe is virtually a given."

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1705561,00.html
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#293 Posted by anil on January 21, 2008 6:57:22 pm
Re: # 291

Massaddi Mian:

You will blame the U.S. elitist if you have constipation in the morning, and will call Tahmed sahib, and Hamidm Mian to inform them of your constipation through your morning mantra.
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#294 Posted by anil on January 21, 2008 7:36:51 pm
Re: # 291

Massaddi Mian:

"...empire of tyranny will similarly collapse...."

Change is the only constant. Don't fool yourself that change will come thru your inventing time machine that will take all back to 7th century, or even to your "7th Century to Mills" par course.

You have and will continue to miss out on both counts - participate in the world's increased wealth and increased knowldege.

I do not know how can you call yourself to be aal of the witness, prosecutor, jury and the judge to pass judgment on Tahmed sahib, and Hamid Sahib. Intellecutal is something you are not.

Notice, I call you Mian and not sahib. Pandit and Mian for me are below par. For those who agitate, I am born pandit.
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#295 Posted by majumdar on January 21, 2008 7:47:03 pm
Masadi sahib,

I presume you believe that US wants Pakistan as a base from where it can spin its web against Iran, A'stan, Central Asia and China. In that case, why shud USA want a unstable Pak. A better thing wud be a stable but subservient Pak which it has been in the recent past.

Regards
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#296 Posted by masadi on January 21, 2008 8:08:26 pm
#295, stability is a necessary condition for institution development, institution development (and not importation from the colonizers) is a necessary precondition for people empowerment. An empowered people will never tolerate subservience to outside masters that like a virus destroys a nation's vital organs
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#297 Posted by masadi on January 21, 2008 8:10:12 pm
majumdar "...as in the past..."

I have commented on that as well regarding every "successive coup"- reread those posts...
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#298 Posted by majumdar on January 21, 2008 8:14:55 pm
Masadi sahib,

You can create stability without institution development at least for a short period of time. For instance USA propping up a General (Mush or otherwise) who does the bidding of the imperialist (and his own benefit) without building up insitutions. For eg Zia had a 11 year stable rule without creating any viable insitutions.

Regards
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#299 Posted by masadi on January 21, 2008 8:19:00 pm
#298, Stability from whose perspective, certainly not the people's perspective, those times were very traumatic for the people, regarding the colonizer's stability that is what I mention is also getting increasingly tedious with "every successive coup"- division through trauma is their age old tactic of control and I increasingly see them leading Pakistan in the same direction.
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#300 Posted by masadi on January 21, 2008 8:19:59 pm
later
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#301 Posted by majumdar on January 21, 2008 8:25:40 pm
Masadi sahib,

(Stability from whose perspective)

From the POV of the Imperialist Power and its local Peons.

Regards
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#302 Posted by shishapa on January 21, 2008 8:37:06 pm
Re: # 291

Masdiji,

That is such a long shot. I doubt people
who make things happens visit chowk.
Doubt they have time to read/interact on
chowk. And the opposite is also true,
people on chowk are hardly any influential
in policy making of their nations, they
just come here to while away.
That is what I think.
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#303 Posted by zeemax on January 21, 2008 8:53:54 pm
#302 Posted by shishapa,

shisha-apa, you forget that a lot more people read Chowk than those who actually interact on it.
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#304 Posted by nkg on January 21, 2008 10:20:39 pm
Re: # 235
We are missing another country...Sri Lanka.
The so called fall of Islamic glory is due to the following reasons.

Middle eastern people have dominated over Europeans using Indian metallurgy.
http://archaeology.about.com/b/2006/12/01/damascus-steel.htm

They have spread whatever they were able to understand from India and China. Remaining knowledge was lost or some is still there with India and China only ( Vastu, Feng Sui, Geeta, Vedas, Yoga, Ayurveda etc...), which Arabs were not able to learn and pass it to the Europeans. India, at the peak of its civilisation, used to concentrate more on agriculture, administration than terror/killing. When Islamic invaders ravaged Northern India, the cream of the society (non priest class Brahmins), were killed and India has failed to improve further in its traditional areas ( Medicine, Science, Literature, Philosophy, Mathematics, Astronomy), apart from generic professions like Agriculture, Craft... The supply line is cut and so called Islamic contribution had stopped there. If you follow the historical chronology, it will be clear.
The worst of all, whatever resouce Middle Eastern people used to get from India and trade with Europe and Africa, after the discovery/regularisation of sea route from India to Europe/Africa, the land route had become obsolete.

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#305 Posted by iron_mask on January 22, 2008 12:13:39 am
Re: # 257

sorry, Masadi - rather unfortunate that I cannot fathom your language and your logic is rather pedestrian. You need to delve a bit deeper - what you say has been said umpteen number of times and many are yet to see some ofthese claims validated.

Anyway thank you for your thoughts - which seem insightful to you.

BTW if you used less of the Moron, eff_you type of language you would come across as the thinking person you aim to be. The language you use is that of an uneducated, illiterate, uncomfortable little moron.

Anyway have a great day!
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#306 Posted by jayp on January 22, 2008 12:17:19 am
Zeemax,

Unlike the korean and chinese economies, indian economy is dominated by domestic consumption, if I recall indian exports are only 15 percent of the GDP while that of chinese is around 50 percent.

Indian FDI is also very low, and there are very strict controls on FDI.

Proof should come in a few days, let us see, Indian stocks will recover faster than others.

Then is the reliance IPO, oversubscribed 75 times for a 3 billion dollar float and that is not small change by any standards.
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#307 Posted by jayp on January 22, 2008 12:21:03 am
Zeemax,

According to you, now there are again 4 jihadi groups with different names.

What I am telling is that these name tags are the creation of pak elites. Basically jihadis are the same, they want to kill the kafirs and that is their unity. They can change the targets, today they are indians, tomorrow it could be chinese.

The centrl theme is that they want an islamic kalifayet. Your groupings are based on the jihjadi targets, not on the basis of any kind of ideology. It is the ideology and the methods that unite the jihadis, the tagets are shifting and your classification is at most very unstable.
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#308 Posted by jayp on January 22, 2008 1:33:57 am
Zeemax,.

Remember the good old days of pakistan when the economy was booming, it was considered a role model for the developing countries. It all tumbled because it was built on hatred, TNT, and the american funds due to military alliance. Remember the U2 mission, it took off from pakistan.

Remember the dot com bubble, Tatas and Reliance bought Flag and TYCO for around 500 million, now they are valued more than 4 billion.

Every crash, there are opportunities and it is a question of picking the right one.

Here is an India pakistan comparison. Following the bomb tests, there was a foreign exchange crunch. Pakistan "de-dollarised" the savings of pakistanis, indians came up with resurgent india bonds. Polar opposite reactions.

Rest is history.

Instead of denigrating indian success, pakistanis should try and learn. You can be the seed of change.

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#309 Posted by zeemax on January 22, 2008 2:16:54 am
#308 Posted by jayp,

Following the bomb tests, there was a foreign exchange crunch. Pakistan "de-dollarised" the savings of pakistanis, indians came up with resurgent india bonds. Polar opposite reactions.

You missed that India had strict foreign exchange controls already in place (no resident dollar accounts) while Pakistan had liberalized back in 1992. It just reimposed controls.

But it is generally accepted in Pakistan that there could have been a better way than the dollar account freeze. However, the situation was so dire that no risks could be taken.

Also, in effect no resident lost any money because all those dollars had been accumulated at an average rate of 32, but encashed at 46.

Point taken though in good faith.

(P.S, I didn't denigrate India's success in reverse FDI. I said that I meant India well)
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#310 Posted by hamidm2 on January 22, 2008 6:04:40 am

masadi strikes back!

.... in the last hour i have had to put off my plans to join tahmed in his full time war against masadi and his quest to reengineer islam for the twentyfirst century ..... the stock market is crashing because masadi dumped his holdings when he left the us in a huff because the professor at prairie view a&m refused to accept his dissertation on "conspiracy of the evil us elite and the boll weevil against cotton farmers in uzbekistan" .....
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#311 Posted by hamidm2 on January 22, 2008 6:15:03 am
Re: # 309

zeemax,

.... maybe you are good for something, after all ....... do you think it is time to sell property in dubai ?
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#312 Posted by zeemax on January 22, 2008 6:52:30 am
#311 Posted by hamidm2,

Dubai? Hell no. But you can sell it to me if you like :)
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#313 Posted by hamidm2 on January 22, 2008 7:31:27 am
Re: # 312

i will sell you my house in michigan :) ..... a 4000 sq ft house on a 1/3 acre lot here goes for about the same as a 2000 sq ft highrise apartment in dubai ........i blame masadi for the drop in my net asset value - the man knows how to get back at us for not letting him join the club
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#314 Posted by tahmed32 on January 22, 2008 7:40:58 am
Where's Masadi today??? (I need a coffee break).
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#315 Posted by tahmed32 on January 22, 2008 7:50:09 am
hamidm #313: I hear nothing but the sound of wailing coming out of Michigan. My classmate who chose to work for Ford tell me Ford cheated them out of their pensions. Blame this one on the evil elite - Detroit auto executives who invented planned obsolescence, ghastly tail fins, poison gas factories on wheels aka SUVs.

otoh, hang on to your house, and in due course it will become prized ocean-front property thanks to global warming brought to you courtesy of sticky-fingered auto execs among others...
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#316 Posted by bubba on January 22, 2008 8:33:16 am
Ok hamid mian, you could agree (somewhat!) that the US is getting into a financial war with the rest of the world. No?

What with bringing down the value of dollar, and the way China plays its currency (outlined in the latest edition of The Atlantic Monthly - by James Fellows) Yup, that liberal fellow who promotes War Games against Iran inside Pentagon. What do you suppose all these events are?
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#317 Posted by zeemax on January 22, 2008 8:56:09 am
#313 Posted by hamidm2,

I don't like living in USA, let alone Michigan. Any other offers?
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#318 Posted by zeemax on January 22, 2008 8:58:47 am
#316 Posted by bubba,

What with bringing down the value of dollar, and the way China plays its currency

You're on to something here. What is it?

:~)
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#319 Posted by masadi on January 22, 2008 9:14:28 am
iron mask writes "Re: # 257

sorry, Masadi - rather unfortunate that I cannot fathom your language and your logic is rather pedestrian"

Pedestrian or not, it is still superior to your no-substance posts. Maybe why it has been said umpteen times is because history has been bearing witness to how the US has been using Pakistan and how its been destabalized and impoverished as a result. How am I wrong, put a sentence together (if you can) and then tell us, otherwise you're just a moron like the rest of these fools
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#320 Posted by masadi on January 22, 2008 9:56:41 am
hamid writes "i blame masadi for the drop in my net asset value -"

The last laugh will be on your fool, regardless of your feelings of grandeur, the flimsy house of cards that the US elite have constructed for the mice to run around thinking they have "made it", crumbles overnight and they are left high and dry. How secure do you feel now but the idiot that you are you cannot see where the real blame lies. The land of opportunity is defined by fluff, empty speculative, manipulative fluff- and that includes their economic system...
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#321 Posted by masadi on January 22, 2008 9:56:41 am
hamid writes "i blame masadi for the drop in my net asset value -"

The last laugh will be on your fool, regardless of your feelings of grandeur, the flimsy house of cards that the US elite have constructed for the mice to run around thinking they have "made it", crumbles overnight and they are left high and dry. How secure do you feel now but the idiot that you are you cannot see where the real blame lies. The land of opportunity is defined by fluff, empty speculative, manipulative fluff- and that includes their economic system...
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#322 Posted by masadi on January 22, 2008 11:28:02 am
skeptical writes "Lets be more realistic...
Things are not as one sided as some of us make them to be....
Social and political phenomenon are complicated affairs....
They orginate through interaction of a host of factors...
Some time contradicting and some time mutually reinforcing factors"

If there ever was a bunch of meaningless fluff that I ever read coming from someone who has not a clue about what he is talking about, this is it. Things aren't complicated they are very simple, they are deliberately made complicated by those that want to hide their domination. The US has been dominating Pakistan's uber institution, the Army, and the Army has been directing Paksitan's politics and economics- what is so "complicated" in these facts. If you deliberately try to muddy the waters and look at micro BS and miss the bigger picture, regardless of your "activities" nothing and I repeat nothing will change. Locate the problem, educate the people and then try to develop institutions that serve and represent the people: there is absolutely no other solution and ignoring the source of the problem, US neo-imperialism in our country will only result in you running around like a rat around in a wheel perpetually and getting nowhere
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#323 Posted by chaltahai on January 22, 2008 11:31:01 am
masadi, seriously dude..you need a vaccine or something. House of cards? ukp this is the largest economy in the world, with the widest of asset classes for the investor set. empty speclative manipulative shit is for idiots like you who don't understand value. that is why you belong in a third rate college in pakistan...which is funded by US aid.
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#324 Posted by chaltahai on January 22, 2008 11:31:55 am
US will always do what is the interest of the US. Don't like it..tough...sit on your thumb and rotate..
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#325 Posted by masadi on January 22, 2008 12:00:26 pm
chalta writes "Don't like it..tough..."

Nothing "tough" about it. People who have the will and desire not to give up faced with tyranny are not all dead yet...
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#326 Posted by iron_mask on January 22, 2008 12:09:05 pm
Re: # 316 Bubba - man, can you do me a favour...if you have access to the article can you post it here....
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#327 Posted by masadi on January 22, 2008 12:09:55 pm
chalta writes "with the widest of asset classes for the investor set.."

Nevermind the fact that regardless of your pretense you don't know what the hell you are talking about, but when the great Depression came the "widest of assets" didn't amount to much now did they? Such is inherent in this economic system unless it is either socialistically or militaristically managed, that is the "house of cards"- and someone with your dimwit level of intelligence cannot get it...
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#328 Posted by iron_mask on January 22, 2008 12:11:09 pm
chaltahai, your perseverance and patience is to be admired(T)
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#329 Posted by bubba on January 22, 2008 1:00:27 pm
Re: # 323 Posted by chaltahai on January 22, 2008 11:31:01 am

[....with the widest of asset classes for the investor set.] ok, with $1.4 Trillion Chinese money back into the US economy, buying treasury bills. This is what we usually call "funny money". Now, once again, the US is heading for cheap money and worthless dollar, and once again, the "financial gurus" (those creative geniuses!) will once again trap millions of people in their "get rich schemes" and once again, another group of people will be wiped out in 5 years or so.

US is heading for a financial war with the rest of the world, and the weapon of choice is the dollar. You keep USD at your own risk. If China does not get away from pegging their curreny to the dollar, we will have dollar equal to the Chinese curreny to equal out the current account deficit. How about that?
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#330 Posted by chaltahai on January 22, 2008 1:35:40 pm
when the great depression came, the US populace was not vested 95% int he capital markets directly and indirectly. When the great depression came, there were no social services in teh country aside from faith based housing and soup kitchens. When the depression came there were no safeguards, monetary polciy that can cushion downturns in the economic cycles.

Bubba yaar, India, Japan and EU hold more in US treasuries than China. If you for a moment think this is just a value play..you are mistaken.
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#331 Posted by chaltahai on January 22, 2008 1:43:34 pm
BTW, I head this doom and gloom back in 1987, when I was a senior in highschool, again in 1991-2 when I graduated from college, in 2001 after 9/11...in 2003 to a lesser degree. Economic downturnsa re part and parcel of the capitalist system...America is not going anywhere..it is still the most innovative place in teh world. Capital flows ebb and flow, credit crunches happen...investors in teh long term still favor US than otehr places. it is not going to change for a very long time..you can shift allocations to manage volatility but your options are cash or equivalents not other markets.
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#332 Posted by bubba on January 22, 2008 1:57:06 pm
Re: # 330 Posted by chaltahai on January 22, 2008 1:35:40 pm

[Bubba yaar, India, Japan and EU hold more in US treasuries than China.]

Are you claiming that India has more than 1.4Trillion USD? I am surprised that The Economist magazine does not identify that kind of wealth in India's foreign reserves.

It is well known that China has over 1.4 Trillion USD (out of 14.4T US GDP) That is almost 10% of the US GDP. What kind of economic books are you reading about India's foreign reserves?

[#331 Posted by chaltahai on January 22, 2008 1:43:34 pm
Economic downturnsa re part and parcel of the capitalist system...America is not going anywhere..]

And nobody is suggesting that America is going anywhere. It is only its innocent people that are being shafted by the unscrupulous financial gurus like people at Bear Sterns, BAC, Wachovia Bank.

Did you hear that the State of Maryland is suing Wells Fargo for over charging its minority community with their interest rates?

[..you can shift allocations to manage volatility but your options are cash or equivalents not other markets.]

This issue is not only about the stock market but what happens between humanity and the wall street. People are being shafted by those crooks on the wall street, and the law seems to be protecting them. It is about time that Congress passes some laws to protect its financial house.
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#333 Posted by tahmed32 on January 22, 2008 1:59:09 pm
bubba: how do you fight a financial war?
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#334 Posted by chaltahai on January 22, 2008 2:07:16 pm
no, I meant in aggregate India, Japan and other countries hold much more. I don;t think a punitive chinese strategy will benefit china at all. Which side of the fence do you think Japan sits? It is still a formidable economy and even more formidable global aspriations. Most countries will hold reserves in multiple currencies, I am not sure if they are all ready to dump the dollar for the Euro or Renminbi yet.


Bubba, wall street peole becomes crooks when the market goes down and they are not mentioned when the markets are booming. Unscrupulousless hurt wall street workers and HNW investors more than main street in the recent subprime debacle. Products like CDO's and CLS's are bought and sold by banks who created the market, investors were hedgefudns and alike. I am not sure if any one on chowk has CDO's in their protfolio.

Law is protecting exactly whom in wall street? I haven't seen bailouts for insitutions...where are you getting this from?
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#335 Posted by arjun_5 on January 22, 2008 2:22:13 pm
#331 Posted by chaltahai on January 22, 2008 1:43:34 pm


BTW, I head this doom and gloom back


It has a name: America Is Doomed Syndrome(AIDS for short)..it is spread by unprotected intellectual copulation between leftists and islamists...
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#336 Posted by masadi on January 22, 2008 4:26:24 pm
chalta writes "when the great depression came, the US populace was not vested 95% int he capital markets directly and indirectly. When the great depression came, there were no social services in teh country aside from faith based housing and soup kitchens. When the depression came there were no safeguards, monetary polciy that can cushion downturns in the economic cycles."

Like I said before this fool throws out shit without knowing a single thing about what he writes. Explain to me please how "vesting" in the stock market will prevent depressions? Even though these numbers are BS, major stock is still owned by the top 1%, the rest of the so called 95% own next to nothing, how can they when the bottom 40% of the US is deep in debt with zero net worth? So you say when the inherent "down" cycle comes and people not only lose their jobs but the value of their savings that will somehow prevent the "great depression"

Then if no social services existed isn't that pure capitalism, why put socialism into the mix to save the system, and don't give me your monetary policy shit, it can in no way prevent a great depression when it comes. What you have been hearing about America's economic collapse is "inherent" in the capitalistic mode of production unless WW2 comes up to rescue them or the try to invent WW2 as America has been doing ever since the New Deal in order to drive back social services and the socialism it has been forced to incorporate into its system, much like the minorities it has been forced to incorporate into the system, and whenever a fool from among the peons of the pure capitalists comes along like GWB and drives back social services and starts war to counter the slump, you can be damn sure the depression is around the corner unless you have a better manager of this tyranny come along like Clinton....now go F yourself
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#337 Posted by masadi on January 22, 2008 4:28:03 pm
By the way capitalism died its natural death during the Great Depression, what exists now is thuggery to manage looting. With the New Deal capitalism lay down its arms and surrenderd to socialism. It died as a system long before the collapse of the SU.
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#338 Posted by masadi on January 22, 2008 4:28:29 pm
I challenge any sob to disprove what I have written in #337.
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#339 Posted by anil on January 22, 2008 5:02:03 pm
Re: # 337

Massaddi Mian:

You have ZERO kowledge of economies and negative knowledge of wealth creation and capitalism.

So quit inviting SOBs to disprove anything you claim. You must figure out why you have negative knowledgde. You devour and destroy knowledge and then hurl insults. You are so dishonest that you cannot acknowledge your weaknesses, let alone work on them. Learn it, when I was wrong and I apologized to you.

The fact that you abuse, you disprove everything yourself. No one does a better job than you, yourself.

BTW, Capitalism can never be in your par course of 7th Century and Mills. On top of it you showed your ignorance of Marxism when you acknowledge all time high Wealth, also. You do not even know what Marxist principles are based on.

I do not have knowledge of Islam or Quran, to determine if your knowledge in these two is strong and accurate.

You could not answer simple questions that had been put to you. You have no decency to debate, because you have nothing to debate. Your garbled thought are around recycled and discarded ideas, and your filthy vocabulary - SOB or not SOB.

You cannot even acknowledge that KNOWLEDGE is all time high too, because you have no idea of knowledge before and after your par course - one more time 7th Century and Mills. You know it too well that this acknowledgement will make you rethink entire basis that you have faked your thesis upon.
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#340 Posted by masadi on January 22, 2008 5:08:28 pm
Anil you need to shut up when you dont know something. I graduated summa cum laude, top of my class, beating out all chinese, Indians and US students in my university in economics. Now go ___ yourself
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#341 Posted by masadi on January 22, 2008 5:15:17 pm
Note what I wrote on Jan 12

#83 Posted by masadi on January 12, 2008 1:14:16 pm
Regarding US involvement in the BB case, it is no stretch of the imagination to note that the US has always supported the military and the dictators it throws up in Pakistan. In fact so close is the relationship that Pakistan Army, totally alien to the Pakistanis, is a foreign occupation force doing the bidding of the US to the extreme deteriment of Pakistan. The the "deal" involving the dominant and lesser institutions, the military and the political would enhance the status quo (strengthen the dominant institution) and not "democracy" should be no surprise to any thinking person, that is why the US was pushing for the "deal", first and foremost to salvage the uniform and military from Musharraf, which was achieved after much bloodletting and lathi charge and emergency, and later to pave the way for a new military takeover to overcome the "love lost" of the earlier (1999) one. This second part of the deal was what the BB was beginning to understand and coming around, and so the "deal or no deal" was turning out to be a no-deal. That is why the US found it quite convenient, using the Pakistan Army (with whom it had a dual fulfillment of purpose in this) to get rid of the BB.

Now read what Fatima Bhutto says to CNN yesterday:

KARACHI, Pakistan (CNN) -- Some of the toughest criticism of Pakistan's pro-democracy movement comes from an unlikely source: the 25-year-old niece of Benazir Bhutto, who says Pakistani party politics do nothing but support military rule. It's an environment, she said, her late aunt is partly responsible for.

Fatima Bhutto says she's not interested in "perpetuating a really ineffectual form of politics ... because of my name."

"At this stage, we are in a state in Pakistan where so-called democratic forces are only interested in coming into office. So ultimately, they only prop up dictatorships," she told CNN from her home in Karachi.

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#342 Posted by masadi on January 22, 2008 5:15:59 pm
Many people roam these streets and they will someday make a difference in the lives of our people
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#343 Posted by anil on January 22, 2008 5:34:55 pm
Re: # 340

Massaddi Mian:

"....I graduated summa cum laude,..."

This prove that you have a complex, also does not disprove that you may be the *** that you called upon to disprove.

What is the basis of Marxism? What is that depression proved?

I do not even bother to tell you what "New Deal" was all about.

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#344 Posted by masadi on January 22, 2008 5:54:06 pm
Anil I think you have humiliated yourself enough here by your posts that any high school dropout can do better than. It is time to pick of the pieces of your destroyed reputation and make a graceful (if that is possible) exit...
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#345 Posted by anil on January 22, 2008 5:56:30 pm
Re: # 343

Massaddi Mian:

Let me say one more thing to you.

The street pedlar in Karachi, Lahore or the town you are, knows more about capitalism. He lives it everyday. He does not even know how to spell "summa cum laude". Frankly, if this all you know, you must return your degree, stop pedaling whatever you are pedaling. Start with the street pedlar you will learn more.
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#346 Posted by hamidm2 on January 22, 2008 5:59:09 pm
Re: # 340

masadi,

..... anyone can graduate suma cum laude from tuskegee community college - it does not prove anything ........ and please stop comparing youreslf to anil mian who, if i remember correctly, went to harvard and has created employment for hundreds of peopns like you ....... you should be trying to emulate him instead of mouthing off like an imbecile .......
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#347 Posted by masadi on January 22, 2008 6:06:00 pm
hamid writes "masadi,

..... anyone can graduate suma cum laude from tuskegee community college "

I did not attend community college, I went to a state university, nonetheless the proof is in the "pudding"- comparing my posts to his says a lot about our education and the lowered standards of Harvard university. Many a halwai in Gujranwala has created jobs for dozens of people, doesn't prove his crap about the world should be taken seriously. Now go __ off.
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#348 Posted by masadi on January 22, 2008 6:07:17 pm
And not anyone can graduate summa cum laude, only a very small percent, and an even smaller percent with economics majors do so.
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#349 Posted by anil on January 22, 2008 6:22:57 pm
Re: # 346

Hamidm Sahib:

I thank you for mentioning it. My company grew to be the largest exporter and exported 50% of all computer hardware from India.

Massaddi Mian talks about the U.S. Elites. He has not produced a single example in human history where the wealth (for capitalists), or work (for Marxists) was created without this group. Even in his 7th Century Islam there was a very impressive Elite Class. For starters slave trade was very active, despite all the egalitarianism.

The instance a hunter-gatherer hunted and gathered more than he could consume, and someone else did not. Massaddi Mians elites were born.

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#350 Posted by hamidm2 on January 22, 2008 6:26:34 pm


masadi,

...... you are a bigger fool than i thought! ..... even i am a tau beta pi, alpha pi mu, and beta gamma sigma - what does that prove ?....... nothing, at all ..... i still have to call aaa to fix a flat tire and i certainly can't run a donut store better than a patel with a fifth grade education ..... but i am okay with that ....... you, my friend, have a serious self esteem problem ..... here is a remedy :

.... every morning, before you twig your teeth, look in the mirror and repeat ten times:"i am good enough, smart enough, and doggonit, people like me !"

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#351 Posted by HP on January 22, 2008 6:27:46 pm
#346 Posted by hamidm2

“if i remember correctly, went to harvard and has created employment for hundreds of peons like you�

hehehehe…your sense of humor is priceless! Hehehe. I just can’t stop laughing!
The guy can’t even write two coherent paragraphs…
Every Indian sandwich shop operator claims that he went to Harvard business school and created 100s of jobs… hehehehe…

On Unplugged, delhiwala is also a Harvard Business school graduate. He too owns a hot dog stand…Heheheh…


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#352 Posted by anil on January 22, 2008 6:30:12 pm
Re: # 347

Massaddi Mian:

Produce examples of a eliteless society, or please go and start, else start with the street pedalor of Gujranawala and learn capitalism from him.

Massaddi Mian you have learned less than a street pedlar of Gujranwala. That state university must have donkeys in the class where you got Suma Cum Laude.
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#353 Posted by masadi on January 22, 2008 6:30:35 pm
hamid writes "masadi,

...... you are a bigger fool than i thought! ..... "

The "summa cum laude" comment was in response to anil claiming I knew nothing of economics, it had nothing to do with fixing flats or fetching donuts. As is quite clear from his #349 post, he has no clue about wealth creation and his comment regarding the 7th century shows that he has even a lesser clue about capitalism...
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#354 Posted by anil on January 22, 2008 6:31:46 pm
Re: # 351

HP Mian:

Finally arrived.
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#355 Posted by hamidm2 on January 22, 2008 6:32:21 pm
Re: # 349

anil mian,

.... actually i will go even a step further and say that anything that was worth doing was really done by the idle rich (us elite, as masadi would call them) ..... even our prophet (pbuh and his camel) would not have been able to pull off his religion without his old woman's money ...... one of my favourite bertrand essays ssays is " inpraise of idleness" ........ i have been aspiring to be rich and idle all my life so that i can do something meaningful - unfortunately, work (which is a four letter word) has been getting in the way !
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#356 Posted by anil on January 22, 2008 6:33:50 pm
Re: # 353

Massaddi Mian:

You just proved it again that just throwing a number (#349) in this case does not prove anything, or does it?
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#357 Posted by anil on January 22, 2008 6:35:02 pm
Re: # 355

Hamidm sahib:

I have read this essay too.
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#358 Posted by anil on January 22, 2008 6:37:21 pm
Re: # 354

HP Mian:

How long will it take you to start bringing Mother Burners?
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#359 Posted by masadi on January 22, 2008 6:40:52 pm
hamid writes "anything that was worth doing was really done by the idle rich (us elite, as masadi would call them) ."

You don't have a clue do you. The US elite are those that dominate its economic, political and military institutions, interchange between the three, share a worldview. Never before in the history of mankind has such concentrated ownership of resources and power been seen in the hands of a group that has so barbarically used it to the detriment of humanity. Comparing the means of production in the 7th century to today's highly concentrated, monopolized capitalism and the military might at its disposal which it has incorporated into the "life" of its everyday system just tells me that these fools have lived ignorant useless lives and will die the same way...
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#360 Posted by hamidm2 on January 22, 2008 6:42:02 pm
Re: # 351

hp mian,

..... sometimes i wish i had a sandwich shop instead of being one paycheck away from having to drink wine that comes in a screw-top bottle!

..... i have a lot of admiration for small entrepreneurs - specially those who give up 'secure' corporate jobs to strike out on their own..... i know quite a few guys who have done it and will be the first to admit that they are better men than me ....... it takes brass knockers
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#361 Posted by HP on January 22, 2008 6:42:09 pm
#355 Posted by hamidm2
“actually i will go even a step further and say that anything that was worth doing was really done by the idle rich�

You are on a roll!

Read Taki Theodoracopulos some time. http://www.takimag.com/blogs/Theodoracopulos/

He is my fave conservative!
Here is a little sample of his astute writing about the rich and famous.

“Like Count Dracula, I used to love the night, hence nightclubs and late-night parties were the staple of my life. Back in the good old days when Eisenhower was president, I used to sneak out from my boarding school near Princeton University—50 miles from New York City—and go to El Morocco, the greatest nightclub of its time. Elmo’s, as it was called by those in the know, was zebra-striped, the great room circled by wide and comfortable booths where the more elegant types were seated. In the middle were tables where lesser folk—the nouveaux riche, the flashy, and those whose names appeared in the newspapers—would spend their boozy evenings. To show you how much the world has changed, back then appearing in the papers was a no-no, even where nightclubs were concerned.�
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#362 Posted by tahmed32 on January 22, 2008 6:44:42 pm
#355 hamidm: you say "anything that was worth doing was done by the idle rich"

I assume that brilliant statement is what won you the alpha beta gamma delta tau delta or whatever it is you won in college. I have noticed that you are beginning to slip recently.

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#363 Posted by HP on January 22, 2008 6:47:04 pm
#360 Posted by hamidm2
"sometimes i wish i had a sandwich shop instead of being one paycheck away from having to drink wine that comes in a screw-top bottle!"

Oh! I too love small business owners...as long as they don't claim that they are Harvard Business school graduates and just love to flip burger to help the humanity! heheheh

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#364 Posted by tahmed32 on January 22, 2008 6:47:17 pm
jesus, i look down and even masadi got that one. That is how bad that statement was hamidm. It put you further out further out on the funny farm than masadi!!
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#365 Posted by anil on January 22, 2008 6:47:50 pm
Re: # 359

Massaddi Mian:

I am still waiting for you to produce an exmaple of eliteless society. I have given you a choice from yes, before 7th Century right from the days of hunters-gatherers.

Why I keep telling that you have no idea of economics. Forget about economics of scale, economics of technology all that make things faster than ever in the 7th Century or in Mills concepts. Ask Bill Gates. I am sure you will insult him and call him elite also.

Listen to my advise, stop pedaling whatever you are, start learning from the pedaler of Gujranwala. He has better economic concepts, than a Summa Cum Laude among the class of D*****S.
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#366 Posted by masadi on January 22, 2008 6:59:23 pm
anil "produce an exmaple of eliteless society"

And why do I need to do that, I am not concerned with an "eliteless" society, it is when the elite usurp the very source of life and are destroying the earth that I want those who are being oppressed to challenge those that have become the "elite" but least deserve it- not in intelligence, in power or even in justfully owning what they own, which is the common heritage of the earth and its inhabitants, no human being since its origin can claim the earth and its resources as his sole right to the exclusion of others.

Next, just because something has not occurred in the past, especially since humanity was able to command surplus, does not mean that it will not occur in the future. In the evolutionary progression of humanity some, like Marx see the dialectic cycle ending with the emergence of a classless society or some form of it. Now you can argue on if that will or will not happen but you certainly cant say that it has not happened so it wont happen because the entire logical system of it is based on mode and relationships of production which have been different in the past. You being a harvard business school graduate cannot understand this, so I suggest you keep company with the gujranwala halwai so as not to suffer stress related diseases prematurely...
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#367 Posted by tahmed32 on January 22, 2008 6:59:42 pm
#365 anil: the eliteless society is right here - on chowk. on the internet.

On the internet discussion forums, you cant impress anyone with your income, personality, gravitas. Only by the strength of our ideas, behavior. (I read this somewhere, btw). And full marks to present company - HP, you, Hamidm - who imho are among the best on chowk.

As your Masadi - Keep trying Masadi. You can do it, boy. I will be happy to work with you to help you get rid of your bad habits (lying, abusive, pretentious). :-)
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#368 Posted by masadi on January 22, 2008 7:07:02 pm
tahmed writes " boy. I will be happy to work with you to help you get rid of your bad habits (lying, abusive, pretentious). :-)"

You entire wasted life has been described by your slavery to the white man, as his peon, helping him kill, maim and destroy in return for some crumbs he hands you by using fluff and other pretensions to stab your own people in the back. To think of it what kind of a soulless, immoral person could have sung songs in support of the US barbaric invasion of Iraq in trying to legitimize what the entire world understood was total injustice? Only Tahmed and his kind could do it.

And don't call me 'boy' you little swine.
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#369 Posted by anil on January 22, 2008 7:14:35 pm
Re: # 367

Tahmed sahib:

"...And full marks to present company - HP, you, Hamidm - who imho are among the best on chowk...."

Aapne elitists khade kardiye Chowk per bhi. HP Mian ke alwaa, Massaddi Mian sab ko gaalin detein hain.


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#370 Posted by anil on January 22, 2008 7:16:43 pm
Re: # 366

Massaddi Mian:

"...And why do I need to do that, ..."

Without that Massaddi Mian, if you were a jamadar from Harvard, or knew anything about the street Pedalar from Gujranwala you would have realized, that you are so full of....

And just quite. Please use your beautiful mind, honestly please.
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#371 Posted by masadi on January 22, 2008 7:24:02 pm
ISLAMABAD: US Centcom chief Admiral William Fallon has arrived in Islamabad on one-day official visit (as Musharraf is out of the country).

Admiral William Fallon met with Pakistan Chief of Army Staff (COAS) General Pervez Kiani.

COAS General Pervez Kiani said in the meeting that only Pakistani forces to conduct any operation inside Pakistan. However, intelligence sharing with US can be done.

It is necessary to find out the root causes of terrorism and extremism. Pakistan Army would continue its role against the war on terror, Kiani said.

General Kiani makes it clear to Admiral Fallon that intelligence sharing on Pak-Afghan border security is a must.

US Centcom chief said that war against terror could only be won with joint efforts of the allied forces.

-----------------------------------
These SOBs own the Pakistan Army, they are preparing this new bastard for a coup

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#372 Posted by masadi on January 22, 2008 7:28:08 pm
The news report said (see under) "Pakistan Army would continue its role against the war on terror, Kiani said."

I wish it was "against" the war on Terror but it's most probably the PMA English that Kiani is using while trying to express support for the wot.
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#373 Posted by tahmed32 on January 22, 2008 7:28:29 pm
masadi #368 What!! All those hours spent yesterday..patiently pointing out the Leaning Tower of Masadi's Lies!! You want to be treated as the village idiot on chowk - be my guest.
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#374 Posted by majumdar on January 22, 2008 7:30:11 pm
Masadi sahib,

Dont you think that it is possible that it may be in Pakistan's own interest that it must participate in the WOT. The havayoons are running amok in Waziristan again.

Regards
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#375 Posted by tahmed32 on January 22, 2008 7:33:01 pm
anil #369 This is not elitism. This is merely pointing out that starting from a level playing field (free from social status, income levels, personality, and so forth), some people on chowk posters are more interesting to read than others.
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#376 Posted by tahmed32 on January 22, 2008 7:33:01 pm
anil #369 This is not elitism. This is merely pointing out that starting from a level playing field (free from social status, income levels, personality, and so forth), some people on chowk posters are more interesting to read than others.
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#377 Posted by tahmed32 on January 22, 2008 7:36:19 pm
majumdar: what makes you think masadi has the interests of Pakistanis in mind? This is all about his own measly little self and how he is the greatest invention of God since sliced bread. He is like Musharraf in this regard, except he didnt get lucky that scoundrel.

If masadi about Pakistanis - he would know better than to keep lying and painting as enemies nations that bear Pakistan no grudge or illwill. But Pakistan has too many scoundrels like Masadi and Musharraf who are full of themselves only.
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#378 Posted by masadi on January 22, 2008 7:38:04 pm
Fighting America's farcial wars is what started this viscious cycle of destabalization that perpetuates the military dominated system that keeps the US ticking...There are many heavily armed cukoo militias running amok in michigan, let us have the US start a war there on the scale of the Pakistan Army to check the "terrorists" and then see what reactions it produces...Let me remind you that Waco in part produced the likes of Tim McVeigh from those very militias run amok....
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#379 Posted by masadi on January 22, 2008 7:40:53 pm
tahmed writes " he would know better than to keep lying and painting as enemies nations that bear Pakistan no grudge or illwill"

The liar, who falsely accuses me of lying without any proof whatsoever, once again is defending US policies towards Pakistan, policies that since even before the Afghan war have destroyed our institutions, made the Pakistan Army stronger, brought civil strife not to mention all kinds of violence to the streets of Pakistan, and brought us to the brink of total destruction and he says the US is all about goodwill for Pakistan. Will you all still doubt what kind of a snake this person is
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#380 Posted by masadi on January 22, 2008 7:43:18 pm
In #379 read "made the Pakistan Army stronger" as

made the Pakistan Army stronger in its political and economic domination of the country.

Regarding strength as a fighting force it wont last more than a week against any foe as is its goddamned reputation.
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#381 Posted by majumdar on January 22, 2008 7:43:31 pm
Tahmed sahib,

(some people on chowk posters are more interesting to read than others.)

I am sorry to say that you have missed out Ahmedmadani sahib in the elite list. In one small post and in very simple, uncomplicated language he puts in more wisdom and reality than the biggies of the chowk put in full page FP articles.

(what makes you think masadi has the interests of Pakistanis in mind? )

Masadi sahib is a good man really (if you overlook his foul language) it is just that his theories are all wrong. And I am sure that if he was to realise that his ideas would ruin Pakistan, he wudnt peddle his theories.

Besides, I agree with him when he says that Pakistan's institutions are severely retarded and need to be built first thing if Pakistan has to survive. Nor is his criticism of USA's (often anti-people) interference in Pakistan's internal affairs entirely unjustified.

Regards

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#382 Posted by anil on January 22, 2008 7:44:12 pm
Re: # 376

Tahmed sahib:

Once this selection starts, elitism starts. Motive forces accelerate selection. Ability to produce becomes different. Economic law of Necessity. By all accounts Bill Gates would be an elite now. That is the way I see it.
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#383 Posted by anil on January 22, 2008 7:44:13 pm
Re: # 376

Tahmed sahib:

Once this selection starts, elitism starts. Motive forces accelerate selection. Ability to produce becomes different. Economic law of Necessity. By all accounts Bill Gates would be an elite now. That is the way I see it.
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#384 Posted by masadi on January 22, 2008 7:46:40 pm
majumdar writes "it is just that his theories are all wrong. And I am sure that if he was to realise that his ideas would ruin Pakistan"

Very easy to say in this "broad brush" fashion so far you have failed to successfully challenge any of them... In fact what I mention is the only logically sound alternative to "more of the same" which has produced zero results for Pakistan thus far, and time for it has almost run out..
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#385 Posted by masadi on January 22, 2008 7:46:58 pm
later..
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#386 Posted by tahmed32 on January 22, 2008 7:48:35 pm
masadi: yesterday i took the time to prove you to be the constant liar and hypocrite that your are.

i will now take the time to expose you for the damned snake you are as well: It is because of snakes like you who spread lies about the US in Pakistan that thousands of boys from poor families in Pakistan have died the past 10 years. You know very well how they were fooled by snakes like you into going to Afghanistan to support the taliban and al qaeda that attacked the US and killed innocent people for no reason. If the parents and brothers of those dead boys knew how they were lied to by snakes like you - they would take you apart.

The above may seem drastic - but this is the reality.
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#387 Posted by majumdar on January 22, 2008 7:49:38 pm
Masadi sahib,

Do any of the developing countries (including Pakistan) have any choice other than to improve their own competitiveness, economic freedom, encourage FDI in order to develop their economies. Can you name any country which has followed an alternative path and succeded?

Regards

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#388 Posted by anil on January 22, 2008 7:50:06 pm
Re: # 381

Majumdar ji:

"...Masadi sahib is a good man really (if you overlook his foul language) it is just that his theories are all wrong. And I am sure that if he was to realise that his ideas would ruin Pakistan, he wudnt peddle his theories.

Besides, I agree with him when he says that Pakistan's institutions are severely retarded and need to be built first thing if Pakistan has to survive..."

Do you realize this is like "Sholay's" that classic dialog, where Amitabh goes to meet Masi for Basanti's hand for Dharmendra. Ranjit had quoted it ealier somewhere on Chowk.
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#389 Posted by tahmed32 on January 22, 2008 7:51:27 pm
anil #382 Agreed. Bill Gates became rich - and gave the world real value in return. This is why the US society is so progressive - it values merit above all else.
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#390 Posted by majumdar on January 22, 2008 7:52:10 pm
Tahmed sahib,

Re: 386

Now that's not fair. Masadi sahib has never been a votary of the "jihad" or supported the Taliban. He is a staunch Muslim and believes that principles of Islam if properly implemented can make the world a better place but has never justified violence as means to spread Islam.

Whatever else he is, he is not a fundoo.

Regards
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#391 Posted by tahmed32 on January 22, 2008 7:53:32 pm
majumdar: read #386 and tell me if I am wrong. What is a "good man" if he deliberately lies and misleads people. This scoundrel masadi is a teacher or something in Pakistan. I know his kind - misleading students, pretending to be a US hater after having jumped to get a visa for himself to the US!!
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#392 Posted by tahmed32 on January 22, 2008 7:57:17 pm
majumdar #390 you are being too generous with this man. he even uses the same vocabulary (shaitan) as these scoundrels do to spread their lies about the US.

he is a liar who tells lies of the kind that have misled thousands of youth from poor families in Pakistan. I have seen those young men in madrassahs in islamabad - innocent young people, well meaning and friendly. Turned into cannon fodder by scoundrels like masadi, fighting a people who mean them no harm - and those scoundrels act as pious as masadi.
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#393 Posted by majumdar on January 22, 2008 8:03:27 pm
Tahmed sahib,

Masadi honestly considers USA to be shaitan and to give credit to him he has actually left the country to come back to Pakistan unlike munafiqs (hope got the word rite) who stay in US, enjoy its pleasures and call for a jihad.

Now you are right that demonising US and inciting Pakis to start a jihad against US is not in Pak's best interests. But to be fair to him, he has never recommended armed fighting against US nor support the Talibs/Havayoons at least on chowk. Now what he does beyond chowk I dont know.

Regards
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#394 Posted by rf786 on January 22, 2008 8:08:27 pm
Re: # 393

majumdar

Thou are right, he is no fundoo...but, did he leave the US on his own or was he escorted to the airport.
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#395 Posted by tahmed32 on January 22, 2008 8:11:04 pm
majumdar: what you are saying reminds me of Clinton saying that "he didnt inhale". Please stop bending over backward to be generous to this man - we are talking of real life where thousands of people have died in Pakistan, where millions are misled by scoundrels like him who paint the US as being their enemy.

what bigger enemy can Pakstanis have than someone who fools them into doing things that hurts no one other than themselves/? Just the fact that this scoundrel does not pout religious rubbish like mullahs makes him no less a liar.
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#396 Posted by tahmed32 on January 22, 2008 8:14:46 pm
and masadi you coward. i know you are sitting there staring at the screen. cant face being confronted? only capable of ridiculing people like me as being "peons" for daring to question your lies about the US as long as I didnt respond in your own language?
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