Shahjahan’s “Moorti” and Other Absurdities in Agra

pleas go easy on shanti towns. it is a question of conflict of interests.

The real probelem is we cannot guarantee basic liveligood for people. In my home town in india the bureacrats wanted to widen roads by pulling down local small scale businesses. I did not know what compensation the bureacrats offered if any but i have to sympathesize with the locals whose livlighoods will be destroyed or in the best case they have to put up with inconveniences for somebody else's sake. Thank goodness it is not a tourist place (yet, it is gorgeous) and local action saved the day

#69 Posted by tvarad

"Unfortunately we don't have a General in charge as in Pakistan to bulldoze over them :-)."

Functioning democracies are more successful in resolving these types of issues than the autocratic governments. The premise of the democracy is that it establishes the rule of law in any society. It is true that perhaps Indian democracy is more about accommodation than improvements.

I would not dare compare the Indian democracy with the European or the north american democracy, but I sure can compare it to democracies and actually some really new democracies in South America that have successfully dealt with situations like that.

I think the situation in Agra has less to do with the bureaucratic infighting and more with the financial ability of the local governments to deal with the infrastructure or the superstructure issues. My gut feeling is that all the income from Taj goes to perhaps the State and the State would not share that income with the City but demands that the city improve the situation in Agra.

Most of the municipalities in Pakistan barely have revenue from the tolls to pay for the employees salaries. However, in the last five to six years, the federal and the provincial governments helped the cities and a lot is being done in every city in Pakistan. Roads are better and overall infrastructure has improved tremendously.

There is not a whole lot of difference in how the politicians and the bureaucrats behave in both countries and the same people, given opportunities, would love to put their names on many stones as the savior of the city.

The other problem is that while the people in both Pakistan and India make tremendous noises about the political and religious rights, they usually don't even take a small procession out demanding the government to provide them basic drainage facilities.

HP #63:

"Though Tvarad(#42 Posted by tvarad) has tried to show the reasons of infrastructure decay in Indian cities and some of what he says it quiet reasonable, however, Taj Mahal is a premier tourist attraction of India and probably generates lots of revenue. Not taking care of Agra or at least making the surrounding areas of the Taj somewhat clean with better roads would not cost a whole lot of money and probably would be a better use of funds generated through tourism."

You don't understand the psyche of Indian babu-dom and underestimate it's resistance to change. For every one official who wants to clean up the place, there will be ten officials who will hold him back (and have the means to do so due to political patronage) because the status-quo is very beneficial to them financially. Threaten to pull one shanty down and you will have a 100 Mamata Bannerjees descending on the area to exploit the situation politically. Unfortunately we don't have a General in charge as in Pakistan to bulldoze over them :-).

Unless the situation becomes excruciatingly painful, no change will occur. The AAI is only now recovering 200 acres of it's own land adjacent to the Mumbai airport that is currently occupied by shanties only because the airport is bursting at the seams and there is no way out.

I recommend a nice book about the concept of civic sense (or lack of it) amongst Indians. It's "A Book of South India" by J. Chartres Molony, a British Indian Civil Service official who served in South India in the early 1900s. As one in charge of providing services to the Madras municipality he talks of his utter frustration with the populace to follow rules. Some of the practices eerily similar to those happening today are dumping garbage on the streets even when carts were arranged to take them away on regular days, encroachment of houses onto streets etc..

I think the concept of common good is difficult for the Eastern mind to grasp irrespective of caste, religion or creed. I know there's the panchayat system but it's too crude to fit into modern times. Add to that the five year democratic jagir given to political parties where the leaders act like royalty of yore and you have a recipe for the glorified slums that our cities have become.

Back to the book. It's a breezy account of a career civil servant of his days in South India and a good read. He's never disrespectful of Indian culture but points out a number of obvious shortcomings. There are some hilarious experiences (like when a local convinces a villager to take some medicine through hocus-pocus where his logical arguments proved futile) and great insight into how the Raj worked at the cogs and gears level.

And the final chapter...martial race paki swooping down on a horse(buraq) and freeing kashmir from the hindoos!!!


I don't think Kashmir's the final chapter for real "jihadis".

What a pathetic situation that Mr.Jinnah has brought the "Momins" into. Remember this is the same Delhi where Aurangazeb mowed down thousands of Hindu protestors on re-imposing the "jaziya" for obstructing his way to the mosque for prayers. Now a "momin" can't even pray in peace in Taj Mahal without a saffron robed idolator disturbing him..

HP the article itself is mainly about "absurdities" right in the title. So the flame is right there, along with all the content of the article. So, leave giving sanity-certificates to tahmed, he has a lot of practice with it.

Ref iron_mask #55

[I agree with you,this tendering will soon become a global thing and the expensive coder from SF and the guy in the village in India will be bidding for the work....it will bring down the cost of code per line....and make the US just as competitive. Time will tell.]

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One Pakistani visits the Taj and now the Indians have to offer so much of explanations and apologies.

I see that same sane Indians like vengatramanan, Harish_hyd, and tvarad have shown the maturity to discuss the issues, unlike the hate monger Anull and the conspiracy theory queen sadna, who tried to poison this board for no reason at all.

The Moorti bit was interesting but looked at in the right perspective; I don’t see any problem with that. In India, it is clear that Hindu and Muslims are two completely segregated communities and if some kid from a 100% hindu areas calls it moorti place, then I don’t see any harm in it nor do I see that as an affront.

We have some people living in Sindh for the last 60 years and they claim to be educated but still have no idea what Sindhi culture and customs are.

Though Tvarad(#42 Posted by tvarad) has tried to show the reasons of infrastructure decay in Indian cities and some of what he says it quiet reasonable, however, Taj Mahal is a premier tourist attraction of India and probably generates lots of revenue. Not taking care of Agra or at least making the surrounding areas of the Taj somewhat clean with better roads would not cost a whole lot of money and probably would be a better use of funds generated through tourism.

In pretty much all countries of the subcontinent, people like to be surrounded by the dirt and filth. Has someone thought about the reason for this behavior?

#60 Posted by masanamuthu on January 22, 2008 5:33:17 am


The only thing missing


And the final chapter...martial race paki swooping down on a horse(buraq) and freeing kashmir from the hindoos!!!

All these ugly monstrosities built by razing Hindu temples should be destroyed. The sooner the better!

it was an agressive hindu harrasing poor muslims left behind at his mercy until a savior of islam from pakistan came to kick his butt, at which point he ran away like a coward LOL.


I got the same impression too. ROFL. With the power of the "ummah" behind this Pakistani has saved the "momins" from "idolatrous kafirs". ROFL.

The only thing missing is the recital of those verses of Quran about "slaying the polytheists".

Re: # 58 parasites, milking the poor etc are more like the lyrics of L'Internationale. ;-)

#57 What do you mean?

Re: # 56 Tahmed32 never knew you were a red-flag waver!

Ayub Khan: While I can understand your surprise at the aggressive hinduism and jehalyat in India - it is not much different than the aggressive islamism and jehalyat in Pakistan.

As for Shahjahan's "moorti", all that the mughals left behind are splendid palaces - not public works. They were nothing but a bunch of parasites. So, the hell with them. Taj Mahal now belongs to the people, and if poor people are milking tourists - more power to them. Better than kings and dictators milking the poor!!