Afghanistan - A Strategic Analysis

And in addition to #536, you tahmed if you feel the urge to accuse me baselessly of lying without providing even ONE example, and repeating the BS that I have not substantiated on my claim that you worship the white man and his shit unconditionally, if you feel the urge to repeat that FLUFF again here on this thread, I suggest you go __ yourself...

tahmed #515, don't try to insult the intelligence of the readers here by merely repeating your BS ad nauseum. You are merely ashamed of your views when they get explicitly exposed so you deny them. I have provided here a url of your article published by chowk which substantiates whatever I wrote about you regarding Iraq and your love of the white man's shit. The other points were well substantiated as well. Your posts stink of an enslaved mind that wants to perpetuate the slavery of our people to the white man, you don't need to be an Einstein to figure that one out and whether you deny it to fool the people as your masters do when they deny their carnage the globe over, it does not prove anything, it only proves that in addition to being a spineless snake you are a lying hypocrite as well.

tahmed #515, don't try to insult the intelligence of the readers here by merely repeating your BS ad nauseum. You are merely ashamed of your views when they get explicitly exposed so you deny them. I have provided here a url of your article published by chowk which substantiates whatever I wrote about you regarding Iraq and your love of the white man's shit. The other points were well substantiated as well. Your posts stink of an enslaved mind that wants to perpetuate the slavery of our people to the white man, you don't need to be an Einstein to figure that one out and whether you deny it to fool the people as your masters do when they deny their carnage the globe over, it does not prove anything, it only proves that in addition to being a spineless snake you are a lying hypocrite as well.

Harimau,

My contention is, patriotism is, more often, a tool for whipping up hatred.

Patriotism was the single biggest factor in motivating the English too.

Now, Do you realize the cost of running a nation state?

Don't you think, the idea of nation state has legtimized:
1. a few individuals' aspirations to rule over others
2. to allow these individuals to convert the people to be the enemies of their enemies.
3. people like MK, Mayawati, Jayalalitha and their malice.

Why should a poor peasant have to pay taxes on all the commodities, without which he would have had more purchasing power, disposable income etc...

Why should a peasant subsidize the lives of war mongerers?

Why do we need a government?
Money spent to have a government running is quite exhorbitant.

Does a government represent all the aspirations of all the people?

Why would an Indian/Pakistani die for somebody's cause?

Would anybody in his right mind want to die for the prejudices of a few individuals on either side of the border?

It is just because he cannot afford a lifestyle that has to pay exhorbitant taxes.

The other day, on a NDTV program that purports to motivate the soldiers, Preity Jinta's army officer brother was introducing the soldiers to her. He took enough effort to be careful to introduce the soldiers by Rajputs, Jats, Marathas etc...I believe they are both names of regiments as well castes. What appalled me was, he dismissively pointed towards south indian soldiers and said 'Madrasis'. He wasn't even looking at them. To rub salt, Preity started doling out Telugu dialogues in a very crude way. It was very insulting.

I dunno if Preity and her family had ever wondered why they deserve all the respect and comforts they are enjoying.

What does it mean to be a patriotic soldier?
To be at the receiving end of condescend?
Why do I have to hate a Pakistani? To safeguard Preity and her ilk?

Harimau,

My contention is, patriotism is, more often, a tool for whipping up hatred.

Patriotism was the single biggest factor in motivating the English too.

Now, Do you realize the cost of running a nation state?

Don't you think, the idea of nation state has legtimized:
1. a few individuals' aspirations to rule over others
2. to allow these individuals to convert the people to be the enemies of their enemies.
3. people like MK, Mayawati, Jayalalitha and their malice.

Why should a poor peasant have to pay taxes on all the commodities, without which he would have had more purchasing power, disposable income etc...

Why should a peasant subsidize the lives of war mongerers?

Why do we need a government?
Money spent to have a government running is quite exhorbitant.

Does a government represent all the aspirations of all the people?

Why would an Indian/Pakistani die for somebody's cause?

Would anybody in his right mind want to die for the prejudices of a few individuals on either side of the border?

It is just because he cannot afford a lifestyle that has to pay exhorbitant taxes.

The other day, on a NDTV program that purports to motivate the soldiers, Preity Jinta's army officer brother was introducing the soldiers to her. He took enough effort to be careful to introduce the soldiers by Rajputs, Jats, Marathas etc...I believe they are both names of regiments as well castes. What appalled me was, he dismissively pointed towards south indian soldiers and said 'Madrasis'. He wasn't even looking at them. To rub salt, Preity started doling out Telugu dialogues in a very crude way. It was very insulting.

I dunno if Preity and her family had ever wondered why they deserve all the respect and comforts they are enjoying.

What does it mean to be a patriotic soldier?
To be at the receiving end of condescend?
Why do I have to hate a Pakistani? To safeguard Preity and her ilk?

Ref vengatramanan #532

[Harimau,

I am not lauding MK's aggrandizing ways. Would a person of similar lineage could have ever aspired for such a coveted post if it had not been for Periyar's activism?]

How about Mayawati in Uttar Prdesh? Nobody there has heard of Periyar. As Periyar himself once said about a Tamil politician, there isn't even a latrine named for Periyar in all of UP. And Thol. Thirumavalavan of Liberation Leopards of Tamil Nadu has as his idol Ambedkar.

[About being anti-nationalistic, I believe this is quite an anachronism. Excessive patriotism has been the world's problem for long. This trick of making the ordinary people jingoistic and getting them, voluntarily, as the 1 line of defense has been the forte of a miniscule % of populace (read ruling elites). I definitely see validity/logic in Periyar's fears.]

So you would be willing to continue to live under British Rule where all the plum jobs went to Englishmen, and admission to educational institutions was strictly on merit (and according to you this gave an unfair advantage to brahmins) but not in an independent India with merit-based admission.

Can you explain your logic?

Harimau,

I am not lauding MK's aggrandizing ways. Would a person of similar lineage could have ever aspired for such a coveted post if it had not been for Periyar's activism?


About being anti-nationalistic, I believe this is quite an anachronism. Excessive patriotism has been the world's problem for long. This trick of making the ordinary people jingoistic and getting them, voluntarily, as the 1 line of defense has been the forte of a miniscule % of populace (read ruling elites). I definitely see validity/logic in Periyar's fears.

Ref vengatramanan #529

[If you are right about MK's lineage, isn't it an achievement or vindication of Periyar's thoughts, considering his position in the state?]

From a website called countercurrents.org which is laudatory about Periyar:

[Periyar declared that 15 August 1947, when India became politically free, was a day of mourning because the event marked, in his opinion, only a transfer of power to the Brahmin - Bania Combine, whose socio-cultural domination, in addition to economic exploitation, would be worse than the British rule.]

Yes, you read it right. Periyar and his cohorts were against the independence of India. In fact, his followers took out a black-flag procession in Madras on Aug 15, 1947.

These anti-Nationalists are your heroes!

Learn the truth about the DMK, DK, Justice Party, etc.

Ig Mehru had not been castrated by his experience as a schoolboy in England, he would have banned these guys and thrown them into jail.

From that to head of Tamil Nadu's government, from being penniless to owner of a fortune estimated to be $2 billion... yeas, it is a great achievement. Built on the stupidity of Masanamuthus like you.

Ref vengatramanan #528

[Periyar fought to abolish devdasi system. You were the guys who benefitted from the devdasi system.]

Periyar did squat about anything. He couldn't get elected dogcatcher in Tamil Nadu...maybe dogcatcher because he dis have some followers. Dr. Muthulakshmi Reddy fought in the Madras State Legislature to abolish the devadasi system.

Of course, according you Dravidian idiots, history of Tamil Nadu began with Periyar, Annadurai and Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion.

You are on a par with Pakistanis for whom the history of Pakistan began with the invasion of Sindh by Arabs.

Most devadasis were kept as mistresses by rich men who happened to be zamindars who happened to be Golts.

A few descendants of devadasi families were MARRIED by brahmins: MS Subbulakshmi by Sadasivam, Madras Lalithangi (mother of M L Vasanthakumari, famous Carnatic musician) by Ayyaswamy Iyer, and Kamakshi (mother of another famous Carnatic duo Brinda-Muktha) by Soundararaja Iyengar. The first two practically became brahmins and were accepted as such by the community.

You are a clueless idiot who has been so brainwashed by Periyar's Thoughts as carefully selected and propagated by Karunanidhi that there is no hope for you to come out of the fog your brain stem is in.

If you are right about MK's lineage, isn't it an achievement or vindication of Periyar's thoughts, considering his position in the state?

Periyar fought to abolish devdasi system. You were the guys who benefitted from the devdasi system.

Harimau,

I am, indeed, a pachai thamizhan. Pachai/Pasumai/Green refers to young plants. Young plants have green stems and not the trees. Anybody who knows Tamil from his childhood days has to be called a pachai thamizhan.

I am not going to hate your community however you provoke.

Harimau,

(Later, President FA Ahmed (a figurehead), acting on the advice of his council of ministers, declared a state of emergency, and suspended the constitutional articles guaranteeing protection of life and liberty.)

A small digression. When Fakhru signed the Emergency document, the guy was lying sozzled and naked in his bathtub. When he woke up sober he realised what he had done and was heartbroken. The poor fellow udn't live with and soon died of a heart attack.

Btw I am enjoying your shastra-arth with your fellow Southies, us Northies are kind of used to thinking of everyone south of the Vindhyas as homogenous Maddus.

Regards

SRK,

Periyar's mother tongue was Kannada and he was a Naicker (Naidu of present times).

His ancestry could be Telugu too.

Ref SRK #522

[#519 and 520,
FYI, I am a Telugu from Andhra. I asked those questions just out of curiosity and i am not Brahmin too. I am interested in the history of Telugu people in TN, thats why i asked.]

If you are offended by my referring to Telugu people as Goltis, welcome to the world of Harimau where everyone is skewered without regard to race, religion, ethnicity or national origin. I am an Equal Opportunity Abuser.

Read Edgar Thurston's "Castes and Tribes of South India". You will realize that practically it is just the Pallans and Parayans who are true natives of Tamil Nadu and almost everybody else is an immigrant.

Quite a few Goltis came into what is now Tamil Nadu as part of conquering armies of Hoysala and Chalukya kings. Almost all of the big zamindars of Tamil Nadu and poligars (Palayakkarans, those who held fife over wide swathes of the land as rajas) were Goltis, including Kattabomman, a big hero of Tamilians. Tirumalai Nayak and his forebears ruled over the southern kingdom of Madurai.

[I understand that Brahmins in TN suffer due to the reservations. But so much bitterness towards your fellow citizens is not going to do any good for you.]

I abuse the Masanamuthus of Tamil Nadu and expose their stupidity. Little people like them cannot and have not held me back so I have no bitterness.

Ref vengatramanan #498

[Rajaji became the Chief minister due to a constitutional impropriety in 1952.In the 1952 elections Congress Party was reduced to a minority in the State Assembly and the Communist Party of India led coalition appeared to be in a better position to form the Government.[4] But Governor Sri Prakasa nominated Rajaji to the Legislative Council without the advice of the council of ministers and the selection of a nominated member as Chief Minister and further majority was obtained by luring opposition MLA[5] to join the party and Nehru was furious and wrote to Rajaji that" the one thing we must avoid giving is the impression that we stick to office and we want to keep others out at all costs"[6][7] Rajaji refused to contest a bye election and remained a non elected member."]

Quoting Nehru! That is rich. Here is the man who maneuvered to hand over the government of India to his daughter and the country has been fcuked over by his descendants since 1947 and you are quoting him on democracy!

Here is something for you to chew on.

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/dilip_hiro/2007/11/states_of_emergenc y.html

Can there be anything in common between General Pervez Musharraf of Pakistan and the late Indira Gandhi, a democrat who was India's prime minister for 15 years? The intriguing answer is, yes.

A craving for power is the common thread between the two leaders from the Indian sub-continent. It is more than craving; it is an obsession to cling to power at all costs.

There are uncanny parallels between the states of emergency declared by Musharraf on Saturday and Indira Gandhi on June 26 1975. Both of them acted to subvert the verdict of the judiciary, actual or imminent. Both of them raised the spectre of the disintegration of the nation state to justify their draconian decision.

On June 12 1975, an Indian court ruled that Indira Gandhi was guilty of corrupt electoral practices, that her election to parliament was invalid and that she should be barred from contesting elections for six years. Arguing that her Congress party in parliament would need time to choose her successor, she gained a stay order for three weeks.

As she manoeuvred behind the scenes to stay in office, opposition leaders called for nationwide rallies from June 29 onwards to force her to step down. In a pre-dawn swoop on June 26, her government arrested hundreds of prominent opposition and other political leaders. Later, President FA Ahmed (a figurehead), acting on the advice of his council of ministers, declared a state of emergency, and suspended the constitutional articles guaranteeing protection of life and liberty.

Indira Gandhi claimed that "forces of disintegration [are] in full swing". Her government imposed censorship and suspended the habeas corpus. Within six months of the emergency, those jailed without trial exceeded 100,000.

In Pakistan now, the state of emergency declared by Musharraf means the suspension of article nine of the constitution safeguarding life and liberty. Citizens can be arrested without being informed of their offence and denied access to lawyers. The government has shut all private radio and television channels.

In his address to the nation on state-run television, Musharraf justified imposing emergency rule "to preserve the unity of Pakistan".

His high-sounding intent was undermined by no less than the president of the governing Pakistan Muslim League-Qaid-e-Azam (PML-Q), Chaudhry Shujaat Hussain. He told the Guardian that the decision to declare a state of emergency was triggered by fears that the supreme court would rule against Musharraf's election by national and provincial legislatures on October 6 as executive president in a legal appeal.

Hussain disclosed that a "friendly judge" on the supreme court bench passed the information to the government on October 31. "He said the verdict may be unanimous", added Hussain. "The [subsequent] debate was whether to impose emergency before or after [the court ruling]."

How long will the emergency last? "As long as it is necessary," replied Hussain.

This is precisely what happened in June 1975 in India. Nobody knew or could guess the length of the emergency. There was a provision whereby the Indian parliament could extend its five-year term by a year at a time. At Indira Gandhi's behest, it did so, and extended its life beyond 1976.

In January 1977, assured by her elite intelligence agency that her Congress party would win a general election, Indira Gandhi announced a parliamentary poll in March. But it lost heavily, and its defeated candidates included Indira Gandhi.

Thus the parallel continues. Now the timing of the next general election in Pakistan has become the prime subject for speculation by diplomats and analysts alike.

#519 and 520,
FYI, I am a Telugu from Andhra. I asked those questions just out of curiosity and i am not Brahmin too. I am interested in the history of Telugu people in TN, thats why i asked.

I understand that Brahmins in TN suffer due to the reservations. But so much bitterness towards your fellow citizens is not going to do any good for you.

Ref vengatramanan #498

[Harimau,

No doubt, the rest of the population hates you. Afterall you were the guys who tried to introduce 'Kula Kalvi Thittam'. Don't whine.

For the uninitiated in Tamil 'Kula Kalvi Thittam' is a scheme that necessitated people to learn and practice the business their castes had been doing. In a nutshell they wanted
1. A Scavenger's son to learn scavenging and not Physics
2. A Barber's son to learn hair-dressing and not anything else
3. A famer's son to be a farmer

They wanted the rest of the living things to live for the Brahmins and this idea was mooted by Rajaji. BTW Rajaji's mother tongue was Tamil and Periyar's mother tongue was not Tamil.]

Are you sure Rajaji's mother tongue was Tamil and not Sanskrit? After all, he was an Iyengar brahmin.

As to "Kula Kalvi", don't we have Karunanidhi's son Stalin being groomed for Chief Ministership and his illegitimate daughter Kanimozhi (literally, "Sweet Words") already nominated to the Rajya Sabha as an MP and being touted for a ministry in the Central Cabinet? Is "Kula Kalvi" to be reserved only for politicians' children?

What is wrong with education where somebody actually learns a trade? Do you know that so many carpenters, plumbers and other laborers have left for greener pastures elsewhere (sorry for using idiomatic English; Saudi Arabia is certainly not green and certainly not a pasture) that only very few available in Tamil Nadu? Are you afraid unemployed men and women wouldn't be available to attend political rallies if people actually learnt a trade and started making money?

As to education being made available to all so that people can move up, how about showing me one Chettiar who gave up moneylending and went into farming alongside the Pallans and Parayans (SCs) of Tamil Nadu? If everyone moved up, who is going to farm? Is there anyone other than a Palli actually transplanting rice plants in the flooded fields?

By the way, most Chettiars are Golts who have bled the Pallans and Parayans dry through usurious interest.

[Rajaji became the Chief minister due to a constitutional impropriety in 1952.In the 1952 elections Congress Party was reduced to a minority in the State Assembly and the Communist Party of India led coalition appeared to be in a better position to form the Government.[4] But Governor Sri Prakasa nominated Rajaji to the Legislative Council without the advice of the council of ministers and the selection of a nominated member as Chief Minister and further majority was obtained by luring opposition MLA[5] to join the party and Nehru was furious and wrote to Rajaji that" the one thing we must avoid giving is the impression that we stick to office and we want to keep others out at all costs"[6][7] Rajaji refused to contest a bye election and remained a non elected member."]

Can you tell me from which Lok Sabha constituency your Prime MInister, Manmohan Singh the Neutered, got elected?

Since you don't know the answer, here is the information:

Singh lost the election in the Lok Sabha from South Delhi constituency in the 1999 general elections. He is thus the only Indian Prime Minister never to have been an elected member of the Lower House of Parliament. In fact he has not won a direct election. He has been a member of the Rajya Sabha from Assam since 1995. He was re-elected to the Rajya Sabha in 2001 and 2007.

Ref masanamuthu #507

[{Vengatramanan:

Please don't club me with Harimau. I consider that an insult.}

Apologies. that was not my intention.]

Hey, he will lose out on his quota admission to professional education if doesn't have a caste certificate certifying him to be an MBC/OBC/BC.

He will be truly insulted only if you called him SC.

SCs are the niggers of India.

(For those who have only a functioning brain stem and are quick to flag this post for objectionable content, that is a paraphrase of the statement "Women are the niggers of the world" attributed to Yoko Ono and former Beatle John Lennon.)

Ref SRK #511

[Vengatramanan,
What is the mother tongue of Periyar? Is he Marathi or Telugu? What caste group does he belong to? I am just curious to know more about him.]

Do you expect honest answers from a Golti pretending to be a True-Green Tamil who denounces brahmins -- who have lived longer in Tamil Nadu than his forebear -- as invaders? Surely you have more sense than that!

Periyar (Great Man), or Thanthai Periyar (Father Great Man) as he is reverently called by the Masanamuthus of Tamil Nadu went by the real name of E. V. Ramaswamy Naicker. Naicker is in reality the caste name 'Naik' and he is from a Karnnada family settled in Erode, Tamil Nadu. His mother tongue was Kannada. While he denounced the Ramayana and gave names such as Ravana and Surpanakha to the children of his adoring followers -- these morons actually asked him to name their babies and paid him good money to do so -- he never went to the trouble of getting his own name changed to Ravanaswamy through a court order. This would have caused no confusion to the public because he was known only as EVR to them and as Periyar to his adoring fans of Masanamuthus.

Among his various statements, the only one that seems to be inscribed on pedestals of his statues is "There is no God. He who believes in God is a fool". In every town, at least one statue of Periyar can be seen with this statement.

However, since the Masanamuthus currently are the Guardians of Tamil Nadu, they conveniently ignore the fact that Periyar said, "Tamil is a barbarous language. Tamilians are barbarians". Vengatramanan, being a Golti, is in full agreement with this sentiment but the Masanamuthus of Tamil Nadu cannot handle the massive cognitive dissonance caused by the acceptance of such a statement and their own rabid support of the Tamil language. So they ignore Periyar's statement about the Tamil language.

Periyar was equally dismissive of Tamil literature. About Kannagi, the heroine of the Tamil epic "Silappathikaram", he asked why that woman stayed with her husband who spent years ignoring her and gallivanting around with the call-girl Madhavi.

He was trying to overturn social mores in India. But since his orations were in Tamil, only the Masanamuthus of Tamil Nadu understood what he said and have followed him. He opined that true liberation of women would come about only when women were free to change male partners as frequently and as conveniently as changing their clothes. He also said that men and women should be free to have sex whenever, wherever and with whomever they want, much like beasts in nature do. This of course has been misinterpreted by folks genetically incapable of passing aptitude tests -- and by this I mean the SC/ST/BC/MBC/OBC categories of people -- to mean that they should have sex with beasts. Not that they needed his encouragement. They have been doing that for millennia instead of trying to find answers to fundamental questions like "What is the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its radius?" or "What is the distance between the Earth and the Moon?" which were discovered by brahmins.

[Also, as far as i know even Karunanidhi's lineage traces back to Telugu speaking families. Is that correct. Someone told me he belongs to either Devdasi or barber caste.]

You are correct about the mother tongue of Karunanidhi being Telugu. He calls himself an Isai Vellalar, which is a gentrification of the caste of melakkarans, those who play the nagaswaram (a shehnai-like instrument). The male children of devadasis were taught nagaswaram and thavil (a percussion instrument) and the daughters of course went into the family business if you know what I mean. The whole business of Devadasis was imported into Tamil Nadu from Goltland, sorry, Andhra Pradesh. The Devadasis were originally primarily Goltis. After several generations, if Karunanidhi (a purely Sanskrit name meaning the Fund of Compassion) can claim to be the Guardian of the Tamil Language, I cannot understand why someone who ACTUALLY did something to save Tamil literature -- such as U. V. Swaminatha Iyer who rescued and published over 120 obscure Tamil literary works including the Great Epics Silappathikaram and Jeevaka Chinthamani about which Karunanidhi and the Masanamuthus practically have orgasms -- cannot be considered a Guardian of the Tamil Language. But then U. V. Swaminatha Iyer was a brahmin and is thus automatically excluded from any such consideration.

Welcome to the Reality Distortion Field called Tamil Nadu.

masadi #510 there is nothing evasive in challenging you to back your claims regarding my views by telling you to cut and paste what I wrote. What is evasive is your writing lengthy, acrimonious posts in response, but without being able to back your claims.

fakirippi: Those were very clever posts. Are you so clever all day long, or only in the morning?

pavocavalry: Thanks.

masadi: So - you lied again when you wrote "You are also a barbarian who supported the US carnage in Iraq". And when challenged to substantiate your accusations by cutting and pasting anything I had written, you failed as before.


Thus proving yourself to be not just a mere habitual liar, but a shameless, habitual liar. Last post to you on this board.

No doubt you will lie again, and I shall then expose you again, on some other board.

Re: # 508 I THINK THIS t ahmed is a Qadiani from LAHORI group.

THE PUNJABIS ARE HOPELESS , SIMPLY HOPELESS

PAVO CAVALRY I LIKED UR FOLLOWING POST ON KHALID BHATTI THAT PUNJABI CHAUVINITS ARTICLE:--

the pashtuns of tribal areas are not what Mr Jinnah the founder of Pakistan called "hopeless Punjabis" .You Punjabis were 90 % of Punjab and the Sikhs were using your Badshahi Mosque of Lahore as a Horse Stable and ypu Punjabis had invented the shuttle cock burqa so that your fair sex are not abducted by the Sikhs at will.And the knight in shining armour General Sir Hugh Gough of Bengal Army of English East India Company saved u Punjabi Muslims from being deflowered by the Sikhs.

You Punjabi Muslims cannot be compared with the indomitable tribals.

You Punjabi Muslim troops fored even at the Holy Kabaa.

Azeem Hussain son of Sir Fazl i Hussian himself a Punjabi thus quoted Jinnah " THE PUNJAB IS A HOPELESS PLACE , I WILL NEVER VISIT IT AGAIN" . You Punjabi Lotus Eaters.

Vengatramanan,
What is the mother tongue of Periyar? Is he Marathi or Telugu? What caste group does he belong to? I am just curious to know more about him.

Also, as far as i know even Karunanidhi's lineage traces back to Telugu speaking families. Is that correct. Someone told me he belongs to either Devdasi or barber caste.

thanks

And by the way this evasive tactic of tahmed to fool the people here is nothing new he has done it before, his so called "I challenge you to show me where I said it", and in every instance I have pointed to his dimwitted posts and articles and he has put his tail between his legs and run away. He repeats this merely so that we can confirm again that he is a spineless immoral fool...

Re: # 478 my friend Indians lost the most important 2 days from 8th to 10th September without attacking.When 11 Cavalry came 1st armoured division also reinforced chawinda.read military history . 11 Cavalry was mistakenly deployed at phillaurah by sahibzada yaqub or some body else.yes , but you read my article on chawinda again or read gurbachan singhs account or major k.c pravals' account.its not my job to teach u military history.

tahmed writes ""You are also a barbarian who supported the US carnage in Iraq". This is another lie. A lie you have stated before, and when challenged failed to prove it by producing anything I wrote!!"

This person tahmed is a totally spineless, immoral liar. He does not even have the balls to own up to what he wrote. What I have written about his support of the US carnage in Iraq is to be found in i) his famous "Open letter to those opposing the Iraq war" in which he is cheerleading for the Iraq war of 2003 , the article he wrote can be found here http://www.chowk.com/articles/6036

and ii) his total lack of condemnation for US actions in Iraq that have caused the death of over a million since that time.

Regarding his pusing the Israeli line, even HP was shocked at his inhumanity back in 2006 and condemned this. You can ask him or do your post search yourself.

Regarding me lying, the best, and only so called "lie" this fool could produce was that I said "I know Zinn well", when earlier I had said "he knows me well" and both by the way are factual true statements.

Vengatramanan:

Please don't club me with Harimau. I consider that an insult.

Apologies. that was not my intention.

masadi #499: you say "point to me one factual lie". I have done this several times in the past when you have lied, and challenged you to substantiate your accusations by cutting and pasting anything I have ever written on chowk the past several years I have been here. Each time you have failed, and instead try to cover up your failure to back your accusations by writing more lies and/or meaningless gibberish.

Let me nevertheless prove you to be a liar again. Your lie is in this very post!! Here it is: "You are also a barbarian who supported the US carnage in Iraq". This is another lie. A lie you have stated before, and when challenged failed to prove it by producing anything I wrote!!

So once again, I challenge you to back your accusation by cutting and pasting anything I ever wrote, including that article on Iraq. If you fail to meet this challenge to produce anything I have written to back this accusation, then you would have proved yourself yet again to be a liar. If, as before, you try to cover-up your inability to back up your lies with anything I have written, then as before you would have proved yourself to be not just a liar, but a shameless liar and hypocrite.

masadi #499: you say "point to me one factual lie". I have done this several times in the past and challenged you to substantiate your accusations by cutting and pasting anything I have ever written on chowk the past several years I have been here. Each time you have failed, and instead try to cover up your failure to back your accusations with more lies.

Let me nevertheless prove you to be a liar again. Your lie is in this very post!! Here it is: "You are also a barbarian who supported the US carnage in Iraq". This is another lie. A lie you have stated before, and when challenged failed to prove it by producing anything I wrote!!

So once again, I challenge you to back your accusation by cutting and pasting anything I ever wrote, including that article on Iraq. If you fail to meet this challenge to produce anything I have written to back this accusation, then you would have proved yourself yet again to be a liar. If, as before, you try to cover-up your inability to back up your lies with anything I have written, then as before you would have proved yourself to be not just a liar, but a shameless liar and hypocrite.

masadi #497: Your post is not even understandable. Which raises the question: Is a masadi post that is gibberish better than a masadi post that is at least written in something resembling a known human language, even if what is being written is hot air and lies? hmmmmm.......

Rape and carnage of the west the officially designated people of your book.

Rape and carnage of your own people all over the world well documented by Islamic historians.

So it all boils to these sick Semitic traditions which are scum political and megalomaniac philosophies masquerading as religion.

And yet the christies have tried to at least say sorry but what about you fkrs.

So there should be no tears for the rest of you. And of course in Iraq Saddam was in love with the Shiites thats why they he was making them beloved of the moon god. If the Muslai's are killing each other due to America more power to the Americans.

Sanatani

Re: # 501

Masadi,

This could be the reason for the slowness:

http://www.ibnlive.com/news/undersea-cable-fault-cripples-internet- in-india-mideast/57773-11.html

In #497 read "why my posts aren't coing " as "why my posts aren't coming

Santani to you complexion might be a joke even though your countrypeople are busy using "fair and lovely" but in the Western dominated world, and their history of rape and carnage of the majority world it has mattered a lot. Regarding the lighter complexion of AAs in the US power structure, that has been forced to incorporate them, this is well documented by William Domhoff in his power structure analysis- he is a well respected academic who has done a lot of empirical work regarding minorities in the US power structure that has been forced to incorporate the few there are post civil rights movement as part of the cooptation process. Get an education fool.

tahmed writes "As I said, while you are a mere joke on chowk, I know quite well individuals like you in Pakistan who love to spread lies about the US in order to pose as "intellectuals".

As usual the fluff man responds with fluff and nothing else. Point to me one factual lie, there are many US peons who hate me here and not one has been able to refute what I write because I try to keep as close to the known facts as possible. Regarding Musharraf, the Pakistan Army is not independant of US influence and the US wanted to strip his uniform for reasons I have clearly stated in earlier posts that is the only reason that you tahmed "converted" from being pro Musharraf to anti Musharraf, while others who are more honest stayed against the dictator and the Pakistan Army's destruction of political and civil institutions from day one. You not only are a hypocrite, you're a third rate mind who is spineless and often puts his tail between his legs to run off from any real discussion when lies cannot rescue you. You are also a barbarian who supported the US carnage in Iraq, pushed the Israeli lie that the Hizb was deliberately going into civilian areas so Israel could be blamed for its unprovoked carnage of civilians in 2006 and were writing nostalgically about the British colonization of India. You are an enemy of the people, and I can guarantee you people here know whose posts are a joke and whose posts are original, independant and not mainstream BS. I have much respect on chowk and your saying that I'm a joke here just added to that respect because everyone here knows what a spineless sellout you are...

Harimau,

No doubt, the rest of the population hates you. Afterall you were the guys who tried to introduce 'Kula Kalvi Thittam'. Don't whine.

For the uninitiated in Tamil 'Kula Kalvi Thittam' is a scheme that necessitated people to learn and practice the business their castes had been doing. In a nutshell they wanted
1. A Scavenger's son to learn scavenging and not Physics
2. A Barber's son to learn hair-dressing and not anything else
3. A famer's son to be a farmer

They wanted the rest of the living things to live for the Brahmins and this idea was mooted by Rajaji. BTW Rajaji's mother tongue was Tamil and Periyar's mother tongue was not Tamil.

"C.Rajagopalachari who had become the Chief Minister of Madras State for the second time between 1952 and 1954, had introduced the scheme of conducting classes in the schools in the forenoon and asking the students to learn the traditional jobs of their parents in the afternoon. At the first stage it was implement in the rural areas of the state. The Dravidian leaders assessed that the scheme was a clever device to keep the Shudra and Panchama castes as illiterates or semi-literates. Their children had just begun to attend school after centuries of denial of educational opportunities. They dubbed C. Rajagopalachari's scheme as Castiest Education Plan (Kula Kalvi Thittam) and began to agitate under Periyar's leadership demanding its withdrawal. As a consequence, the Chief Minister had to resign in March 1954, and Kamaraj assumed office on 14th April. Kamaraj abolished the half-day-teaching scheme, and assured Periyar that his Government would extent educational facilities to people in every nook and corner of the state.

Rajaji became the Chief minister due to a constitutional impropriety in 1952.In the 1952 elections Congress Party was reduced to a minority in the State Assembly and the Communist Party of India led coalition appeared to be in a better position to form the Government.[4] But Governor Sri Prakasa nominated Rajaji to the Legislative Council without the advice of the council of ministers and the selection of a nominated member as Chief Minister and further majority was obtained by luring opposition MLA[5] to join the party and Nehru was furious and wrote to Rajaji that" the one thing we must avoid giving is the impression that we stick to office and we want to keep others out at all costs"[6][7] Rajaji refused to contest a bye election and remained a non elected member."

First let me apologize to those of you who might be wondering why my posts aren't coing (maybe one or two of you), the internet connection I have these days is rather bad. In any case let me respond to tahmed's BS:

Tahmed writes :"....not aware that US forces are there to turn them into the 51st, 52nd, 53rd...58th states!! And no doubt the US cant wait to have Iraq and Afghanistan join the union as the 59th and 60th states!!"

Regardless of the fact that you haven't been able to respond to what I wrote regarding US territorial expansion through military bases which are not "hanging in the air", and about which your dimwitted white man worshipping brain had not even thought about, let me tell you that neo-colonial territorial expansion does not mean that you hand over the same rights that you have been forced to hand to the home country to other territories that you dominate. They get all the benefits and more of territorial expansion through force of arms with none of the cost of making those territories part of their formal state....get it fool?

"Why the hell do you guys demand entry into Shiva temples?"

Harimau,

It is we who built the temples, not your fore fathers. I do not consider you the representative of the collective Brahmin thoughts. You are just a low life like your grand fathers who required permission to sit before us.

I know you would call me a Golti and I don't feel bad to hide what my mother tongue is. There was no concept of Telugu/Tamil/Kannada speaking lands before the demarcation of states. I am as good/bad a Tamilian as anybody else in Tamilnadu. I do not have to desperately identify myself as a Tamilian because I have no intention or belief in using the tag for my advantage. PM me if you would want to come down to my place (a village near Theni/Cumbum) and verify for yourself. Kindly bring Mami with you :). Be assured, I have no intention of naming my kids the way you have predicted, neither we have anyone in the family by those names.

I know you would be angrier at the Telugus because they were vociferous against the Brahmins. FYI my Tamil is far better than your Subramanya Swamy who masquerades as a Tamil.

Just give a thought, for how many years do you think you can successfully turn people on each other using language/territory/ethnicity etc...You seem not to understand that the very same qualities had been identified and turned people's ire against you.

My Dad, in his engineering days, was closer to Kamaraj. Did you ever took time to understand why MGRs, KKSSRs, Arcot Veeraswamys are more loved than your people.

Masanamuthu,

Please don't club me with Harimau. I consider that an insult.

Re: # 475
Thanks for your points about demise of general Zia.
I always wonder if India has mole in some telephone exchange in country.
While Kargil fighting was going on Gen. Musharraf telephoned his deputy and they talked about situation. After some time Indians produced the conservation.
What is your feeling and speculation was it technical spying or human mole ?
Why indians published it ? ( This makes otherside to understand that they have some security beach in communication.
Or it was just handing this voice transmission to Indians by Chineses or Americans ?
Any idea of numbers of death on both sides.
This things never said by any body.

Mr.Tahmed.. You may not respond to Masadi if you want but no point in criticizing him and calling names. If you can not say good do not say any thing. You can study his book when after siome time , you can learn lot and different point of view.
Good morning everybody and great day.

harimau:

[I don't think the Brahmins are "oppressed" by other castes. Brahmins are "ridiculed" but it is vice versa. We can see that from the attitude of folks like Harimau and his equivalents in the other castes.]

Are brahmins the oppressors when Dalits and Thevars fight it out? Explain how. I very much would like to undertand how your brain stem reasons out these things.


stay calm and read what I have written.

Re: # 490

Guru Maharaj,
If you don't know where you can park your promises, or what use I have for them, no one can help you.

So why don't you take your "do-aatisha" dementia (hindutva + punjabi) and f**k off?

Ref masanamuthu #491

[Harimau:
I think you are mistaken. Vengatramanan is probably a Brahmin (and belongs to "you guys" :-) ) and not the "masanamuthus". You should know that. "Vengatramanan" is a 100% Brahmin name, assuming he chose the handle to reflect his name.]

Nope. On top of that, this Vengatramanan is a Golti. But when he manages to produce offspring, either thru his first cousin or a farm animal, you can be sure he will name it Tamil Selvan so that you Masanamuthus will be fooled into thinking that he is a True Son of Tamil Nadu.

Just like all of you guys fell for Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion's comment that Jayalalitha is a Kannadiga and MGR is a Malayalee but conveniently ignore the fact Arcot Veeraswamy and KKSSR Ramachandran (both of them ministers in the Tamil Nadu cabinet) speak in Telugu between themseleves, you will assume that this future Tamil Selvan is a True-Green Tamilian (Pacchai Thamizhan, in your parlance).

Also, the mad rush to adopt Tamil names like Tamil Selvan, Tamil Arasan, Tamil Mani, etc., has left out only Tamil @rsehole as the sole available name so that one's child could stand out among the 15 Tamil Selvans in a class. But the True-Green Tamilians have decided to adopt Sanskrit names in their bid to out-brahmin the brahmins. For instance, Tamil Nadu's election commissioner is named Chandrasekaran... when his malfeasance in conducting local elections was discussed, Karunanidhi said that he was being unfairly maligned because he is an MBC. However, the comments about his malfeasance in office came from a bench of the Madras High Court which ordered re-poll for 99 out of 156 councilor's positions. That is right, not in 99 polling booths but for 99 representatives! Karunanidhi couldn't blame the comment on the brahmins because the judge who made that comment was a Muslim.

[I don't think the Brahmins are "oppressed" by other castes. Brahmins are "ridiculed" but it is vice versa. We can see that from the attitude of folks like Harimau and his equivalents in the other castes.]

Are brahmins the oppressors when Dalits and Thevars fight it out? Explain how. I very much would like to undertand how your brain stem reasons out these things.

Consider that 98% of the villages in Tamil Nadu do not have a brahmin presence. Tell us how we are the oppressors in those 98% villages.

This board is comical.

There are multiple strands of discussion (or rather abuses) going on.

Why the hell do you guys demand entry into Shiva temples? Why can't you be happy worshipping Small-Pox and that fat film actress Khushbhoo (a Muslima at that)?

Harimau:
I think you are mistaken. Vengatramanan is probably a Brahmin (and belongs to "you guys" :-) ) and not the "masanamuthus". You should know that. "Vengatramanan" is a 100% Brahmin name, assuming he chose the handle to reflect his name.

Sanatani:
I don't think the Brahmins are "oppressed" by other castes. Brahmins are "ridiculed" but it is vice versa. We can see that from the attitude of folks like Harimau and his equivalents in the other castes.

Re: # 485

Has la Muhajira has le.

He who laughs last laughs loudest.

I promise you it will be so funny as to be sick.

Sanatani

Ref vengatramanan #447

["During his childhood, Mendel worked as a gardener, studied beekeeping, and as a young man attended the Philosophical Institute in Olomouc"]

And I guess you are explaining your having sex with farm animals as an attempt to produce cross-species life forms!

["In school, the young Edison's mind often wandered, and his teacher, the Reverend Engle, was overheard calling him "addled." This ended Edison's three months of official schooling. His mother then home schooled him.]

Edison has a couple of thousand patents. What do the Masanamuthus have?

[Perhaps, you should abstain seeing a 'lingam' for some time. The black lingams clearly have had a profound effect on your gene pool and hence your jealousy towards goats or the proclivity to become one.]

Why the hell do you guys demand entry into Shiva temples? Why can't you be happy worshipping Small-Pox and that fat film actress Khushbhoo (a Muslima at that)?

You guys have to figure out what you want to do: imitate Brahmins while cursing them or revert back to your sexual freedom days. The first has inherent contradictions that your already confused mind cannot handle. The second is the right way forward for True Tamilians who Did Not Come in through the Khyber Pass (as Karunanidhi refers to brahmins).

Jesus frikking Christ...

I just watched a rerun of of Frontline from October 2006 about the return of the taliban.

Basically, the paki army attcked the talipakis led by nek mohd and got their butts handed to them on a plate. Then mush made a deal with them...like a person being robbed making a deal to give up his wallet and his watch and his pants...you get the idea...The paki army sent some bigshot general to sign the peace deal. He embraced the jihadi guys and said to them, and I paraphrase, there were no afghani pilots on 9/11 so why did america attack afghanistan...then he said the paki army had to fight the jihadis before because if they didn't, the americans would have entered the tribal areas..yup...these are the deferenders of pureland..no wonder they left the bodies behind in kargil and denied their soldiers had died..

and did I mention: the paki army paid the taliban for the peace deal...

the segment began with the history of how the ISI and paki army, after the US invasion post 9/11, let the jihadis into pakiland by telling them to go south through south waziristan...they interviewed a paki dude on this.

wonder what prophet tahmed the self-righteous has to say about this...

if the talipakis are now killing pakis wholesale, fantastic I say...you deserve every bit of it...

Ref vengatramanan #435

["Rather than completing high school, Albert decided to apply directly to the ETH Zurich, the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in Zurich, Switzerland. Without a school certificate, he was required to take an entrance examination, which he did not pass."]

So, how many Nobel Prizes have the Masanamuthus of Tamil Nadu gotten after failing aptitude tests or entrance exams for professional studies?

Zeo, Zilch. Nada.

Einstein failing an entrance exam does not equate to you failing an entrance exam. Nor does that make you Einstein.

Ref vengatramanan #435

[Harimau,

ROTE learning:- Your forte]

Experimentation to produce cross-species life forms through sexual reproduction: your specialty.

Re: # 482 "Ingrate bastuuuurds that is Hindustani Mussalmans and Stupidity thy name is Punjabi Muslims".

Guru Sanatana ji:

Please don't be angry. I am am weak of heart and might start peeing in my bed.

... And spare the Punjabi muslims please. The UP walas made them do it. It was not their fault.

saaley kameenay Mush ki aulad ...

Re: # 407

Bulleya Sahib,

Let us ask you one question where are any of the great empires of today?

I shall anwer it nowhere.

What is this unity you talk about? Why are you thinking of unity in terms of fixed nation states and boundaries. The first unity is the unity of the people.

When a decorated hero of the Indian Army a Dogra from Jammu can fall at the feet of a Manipuri lady and beg forgiveness for the action of a Jawan in raping one of her kind that is the unity of the people one talks about.

The people of Bharatvarsh were always one till the elements of Separatism were introduced first by Islam and then by Christianity. What was however needed was a man like the Crusader pope to have affected political unity to fight the barbarians at the gate and that did not happen and we lost the chunks of the Matrabhumi that became Afghanistan, Pakistan and Bangladesh. Do you not get it what separates us is Islam.

You need more proofs of our people's essential unity.

When the Marathas lost the 3rd battle of Panipat in 1761 their women from the camp ran helter skelter to save their honour. At that point the Jat inhabitants of the Punjab, Haryana and Braj rallied to save the honours of the women they perceived as sisters and at a great cost to their lives saved a majority of them. Abdali had abducted almost 30,000 women amajoirty of them Maratha and from Braj. Incensed at this the Khalsa in tolas and jathas showed incredible (actually suicidal bravery) in attacking the returning army and the baggage trains while one group would engage the enemy and mostly die fighting the other would rescue the women. Thus they managed to save almost 75% of the waelth and over 90% of the women Abdali was carrying. Remember this is the Sikhs from the West Punjab fighting and dying for their sisters of near and distant provinces.

We could also quote the partition of India.

So get your facts right we have been one nation from time immemorial just that we allowed these heterogenities to come into our nations fabric. InshaKrishna we shall one day remove them and be back to where we started.

Sanatani

Masadi Sahib,

If Churchill had agreed to Hitlers proposals after the occupation of France then there would have been no Soviet Union.

And a good thing it would have been.

Sanatani

Re: # 354 Viqarm

Abe o madarchoo***d read the following account, before you call names to Anandpal and Jaypal.

ARAB FAILURE IN SINDH, KABUL AND ZABUL

In Chapter I of his book, Dr. Misra gives dates as well as details regarding the rapid conquests made by the armies of Islam after the death of its prophet in AD 632. The Byzantine provinces of Palestine and Syria fell to them after a six month?s campaign in AD 636-637. Next came the turn of the Sassanid empire of Persia which included Iraq, Iran, and Khorasan. The Persians were defeated decisively in AD 637, and their entire empire was overrun in the next few years. ?By A.D. 643 the boundaries of the Caliphate touched the frontiers of India.?1 The Turkish speaking territories of Inner Mongolia, Bukhara, Tashkand, and Samarkand, etc. were annexed by AD 650. Meanwhile, in the west, the Byzantine province of Egypt had fallen in AD 640-641. The Arab armies marched over North Africa till they reached the Atlantic and crossed over into Spain in AD 709.


These were not mere territorial conquests. Dr. Misra observes: ?Astonishing as these victories of Islamic armies were, equally amazing was the ease and rapidity with which people of different creeds and races were assimilated within the Islamic fold. Syrians, Persians, Berbers, Turks and others - all were rapidly Islamised and their language and culture Arabicised.?2 He also quotes an appropriate passage of the Quran which had inspired the Arabs to decimate and denationalise those who were defeated by them: ?Fight and slay the pagans wherever you find them, and seize them, beleaguer them and lie in wait for them in every stratagem till they repeat and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity.?3


The same Islamic armies, however, had to struggle for 69 long years to make their first effective breach in the borders of India. In the next three centuries, they pushed forward in several provinces of Northern and Western India. But at the end of it all, India was far from being conquered militarily or assimilated culturally. The Arab invasion of India ended in a more or less total failure. Dr. Misra tells the full story in the next two chapters of his book.


ARAB FAILURE IN SINDH


The Arab invasion of Sindh started soon after their first two naval expeditions against Thana on the coast of Maharashtra and Broach on the coast of Gujarat, had been repulsed in the reign of Caliph Umar (AD 634-644). The expedition against Debal in Sindh met the same fate ?The leader of the Arab army, Mughairah, was defeated and killed.?4 Umar decided to send another army by land against Makran which was at that time a part of the kingdom of Sindh. But he was advised by the governor of Iraq that ?he should think no more of Hind?.5 The next Caliph, Usman (AD 646-656), followed the same advice and refrained from sending any expedition against Sindh, either by land or by sea. The fourth Caliph, Ali (AD 656-661), sent an expedition by land in AD 660. But the leader of this expedition and ?those who were with him, saving a few, were slain in the land of Kikan in the year AH 42 (AD 662)?. Thus the four ?pious? Caliphs of Islam died without hearing the news of a victory over ?Sindh or Hind?.


Muawiyah, the succeeding Caliph (AD 661-680), sent as many as six expeditions by land. All of them were repulsed with great slaughter except the last one which succeeded in occupying Makran in AD 680. For the next 28 years, the Arabs did not dare send another army against Sindh. The next expedition was despatched to take Debal in AD 708. Its two successive commanders, Ubaidullah and Budail, were killed and the Arab army was routed. When Hajjaj, the governor of Iraq, asked the Caliph for permission to send another expedition, the Caliph wrote back: ?This affair will be a source of great anxiety and so we must put it off, for every time an army goes, [vast] numbers of Mussalmans are killed. So think no more of such a design.?6


But Hajjaj was a very tenacious imperialist. He spent the next four years in equipping an army more formidable than any which had so far been sent against Sindh. While sending off his nephew as well as son-in-law, Muhammad bin Qasim, with this army in AD 712, Hajjaj said: ?I swear by Allah that I am determined to spend the whole wealth of Iraq, that is in my possession, on this expedition.?7 Muhammad was successful in overcoming the fierce resistance he met at every step in his progress through Sindh. By AD 713 he had occupied the whole of this province as well as Multan. He was helped to a certain extent by the treachery of some merchants and local governors at a few places. But as soon as he was recalled in AD 714, ?the people of India rebelled, and threw off their yoke, and the country from Debalpur to the Salt Sea only remained under the dominions of the Khalifa.?8 This was only a narrow coastal strip.


Subsequently, the Islamic armies reconquered Sindh, and advanced through Rajputana upto Ujjain in the east and Broach in the south. ?But the success of the Arab armies was short-lived. Their advance to the south was signally checked by the Chalukya ruler of Lat (S. Gujarat), Pulakesin Avani-Janasraya. The Navasari inscription (A.D. 738) records that Pulakesin defeated a Tajika (Arab) army which had defeated the kingdoms of Sindhu, Cutch, Saurashtra, Cavotaka, Maurya and Gurjara and advanced as far south as Navasari where this prince was ruling at this time. The prince?s heroic victory earned him the titles of ?solid Pillar of Dakshinapatha (Dakshinapatha-sadhata) and the Repeller of the Unrepellable (Anivarttaka-nivartayi)?. The Gwalior inscription of the Gurjara-Pratihar King, Bhoja I, tells us that Nagabhatta I, the founder of the family who ruled in Avanti (Malwa) around A.D. 725, ?defeated the army of a powerful Mlechha ruler who invaded his dominions?.9 The Gurjara-Pratiharas were known to the Arab historians as ?kings of Jurz?. Referring to one of these kings, an Arab historian wrote that ?Among the princes of India there is no greater foe of the Mohammaden faith than he?.?10


The Arabs also made advances to the north of Sindh into the Punjab and towards Kashmir. Here they were blocked and driven back by Lalitaditya Muktapida (AD 724-760) of Kashmir. He was in alliance with Yasovarman of Central India. ?He is said to have ordered the Turushkas to shave off half of their heads as a symbol of their submission.? Dr. Misra cites Biladhuri who wrote that ?the Mussalmans retired from several parts of India and left some of their positions, nor have they upto the present advanced so far as in days gone by?.11 And he mourned, ?The people of India returned to idolatry with the exception of the inhabitants of Qasbah. A place of refuge to which the Moslems might flee was not to be found, so he [Arab governor] built on the further side of the lake, where it borders on al-Hind, a city which he named at-Mahfuzah [the protected] establishing it as a place of refuge for them, where they should be secure and making it a capital.?12


Arab travellers to India of the 10th century ?all speak of only two independent Arab principalities with Multan and Mansurah as their capitals?. The Pratihara kings waged constant war ?against the Arab prince of Multan, and with the Mussalmans, his subjects on the frontier?. Multan would have been lost by the Arabs but for a Hindu temple. Dr. Misra quotes Al-Istakhri who wrote about AD 951 that in Multan ?there is an idol held in great veneration by the Hindus and every year people from distant parts undertake pilgrimages to it? When the Indians make war upon them and endeavour to seize the idol, the inhabitants [Arabs] bring it out pretending that they will break it and burn it. Upon this the Indians retire, otherwise they would destroy Multan.? Finally, he observes: ?Thus after three centuries of unremitting effort, we find the Arab dominion in India limited to two petty states of Multan and Mansurah. And here, too, they could exist only after renouncing their iconoclastic zeal and utilizing the idols for their own political ends. It is a very strange sight to see them seeking shelter behind the very budds, they came here to destroy.?13


It has to be kept in mind all along that the Arab empire in this period was the mightiest power on earth. Compared to this monolithic and highly militarised giant, the Hindu principalities of Sindh and other border areas were no better than pygmies. Yet the pygmies had the last laugh at the end of the 10th century when the Islamised Turks took over from the Arabs the Islamic crusade against ?Sind and Hind?. It was the old story of Alexander and the small republics of the Punjab and Sindh, all over again.


INSIDE STORY OF ARAB ?LIBERALISM?


Dr. Misra concludes his chapter on Sindh with a very meaningful note. ?From a political or missionary point of view,? he writes, ?the Arab conquest of Sindh was certainly a minor affair. The Arab conquest of other countries, outside India, had been followed by wholesale conversions and supplanting of local institutions by Islamic ones? The Islamic law had divided unbelievers into two classes, viz., the People of the Book (Ahl-i-Kitãb), the possessors of Scriptures - the Jews and the Christians - and the idolaters. The former were not to be lawfully molested in any way so long as they accepted the rule of the conquerors and paid the Jezia. But for the idolaters, the choice was between Islam and death. In Central Asia, the idolaters had been rooted out. But this experiment failed in Sindh as Islam was confronted with a faith which, though idolatrous, defied death and looked at life in this world as one link in the eternal chain of births and deaths. The experiment was only tried at Debal where the ?temples were demolished and mosques founded; a general massacre endured for three days, prisoners were taken captive; plunder was amassed?. Thus under compulsion of events, the stem code of Islam was relaxed, the Hindus were allowed to rebuild their temples and perform their worship and the three per cent which had been allowed to the priests under the former government was not discontinued.?14


Many historians, particularly the apologists for Islam, have presented this expediency as a proof of Islamic liberalism under the early Arabs. They have contrasted this Arab ?liberalism? with the ?fanaticism? of the Turks who joined the fold of Islam at a later stage. Dr. Misra does not make this mistake. He has laid bare the true motivation at the back of this ?liberalism?, and thus restored the perspective on the plasticity of Islamic polity in the over-all framework of the fundamental Islamic law regarding treatment of non-believers. The mullahs and sufis of Islam might have howled over this dilution of the dogma. But the military and political leaders always knew when and where to make a compromise in the interests of self-preservation, and till the next stage of aggrandisement arrived in the vicissitudes of war. Lenin has also exhorted the party to know exactly when to practise tactics of retreat. Islam, after all, is Communism plus Allah, as Allami Iqbal has observed so aptly.


HEROIC DEFENCE OF KABUL AND ZABUL


The same story was repeated by the Hindu kingdoms of Kabul (Kapisa) and Zabul (Jabal) which lay to the north-west of Sindh, and which the Islamic armies had started attacking soon after they annexed Khorasan in AD 643. It was in AD 650 that the first Islamic army penetrated deep into Zabul by way of Seistan, which at that time was a part of India territorially as well as culturally. The struggle was grim and prolonged. The Islamic army suffered heavy losses. In the final round, the invader was defeated and driven out.


Another attack followed in AD 653. The Arab general, Abdul Rahman, was able to conquer Zabul and levy tribute from Kabul. The king of Kabul, however, proved desultory in paying regularly what the Arabs thought to be their due. Finally, another Arab general, Yazid ibn Ziyad who had been the governor of Seistan for some time, attempted retribution in AD 683. He was killed by the Hindus, and his army was put to flight with great slaughter. The Arabs lost Seistan also, and had to pay 5,00,000 dirhams to get one of their generals, Abu Ubaida, released.


But the Arabs, inspired as they were by an imperialist ideology, did not give up. They recovered Seistan some time before AD 692. Its new governor, Abdullah, invaded Kabul. The Hindus trapped the Arab army in the mountain passes after allowing it to advance unopposed for some distance. Abdullah agreed to cease hostilities, and the king of Kabul agreed to renew payment of an annual tribute. But the treaty was denounced by the Caliph who dismissed Abdullah. The war against Kabul was renewed in AD 695 when Hajjaj became the governor of Iraq. He sent an army under Ubaidullah, the new governor of Seistan. Ubaidullah was defeated and forced to retreat after leaving his three sons as hostages and promising that ?he shall not fight as long as he was governor?.15 Once again, the treaty was denounced by the Caliph, and another general, Shuraih, tried to advance upon Kabul. He was killed by the Hindus, and his army suffered huge losses as it retreated through the desert of Bust. Poor Ubaidullah died of grief. That was the third round won by the Hindu kingdom of Kabul.


In the next round, Hajjaj commissioned Abdul Rahman once again. He made some conquests but could not consolidate his hold. Hajjaj threatened to supersede him. Abdul Rahman revolted and entered into a treaty with the Hindu king to ?carry arms against his master?.16 The treaty did not work, and Abdul Rahman committed suicide. The Hindu king, however, continued the war. Masudi, the Arab historian, ?makes mention of a prince in the valley of the Indus who after having subjugated Eastern Persia, advanced to the bank of the Tigris and Euphrates?.17 Hajjaj had to make peace according to which the Hindu king was entitled to keep his kingdom in exchange for an annual tribute. The Hindu king, however, stopped payment in the reign of Caliph Sulayman (AD 715-717). Some attempts to force him into submission were made in the reign of Caliph Al-Mansur (AD 745-775). But they met with only partial success, and we find the Hindus ruling over Kabul and Zabul in the year AD 867. The Arabs had failed once again to conquer finally another small Hindu principality, in spite of their being the mightiest power on earth. The struggle had lasted for more than two hundred years.


The kingdom of Kabul suffered a temporary eclipse in AD 870 but not on account of the Arabs, nor as a result of a clash of arms. The Turkish adventurer, Yaqub bin Layth, ?who started his career as a robber in Seistan and later on founded the Saffarid dynasty of Persia?, sent a message to the king of Kabul that he wanted to come and pay his homage. The king was deceived into welcoming Yaqub and a band of the latter?s armed followers in the court at Kabul. Yaqub ?bowed his head as if to do homage but he raised the lance and thrust it into the back of Rusal so that he died on the spot?. A Turkish army then invaded the Hindu kingdoms of both Kabul and Zabul. The king of Zabul was killed in the battle, and the population was converted to Islam by force. That was a permanent loss to India. But the succeeding Hindu king of Kabul who had meanwhile transferred his capital to Udbhandapur on the Indus, recovered Kabul after the Saffarid dynasty declined. Masudi who visited the Indus Valley in AD 915 ?designates the prince who ruled at Kabul by the same title as he held when the Arabs penetrated for the first time into this region?.18


The Hindus lost Kabul for good only in the closing decade of the 10th century. In AD 963 Alaptigin, a Turkish slave of the succeeding Samanid dynasty, had been able to establish an independent Muslim principality in Kabul with his seat at Ghazni. It was his general and successor, Subuktigin, who conquered Kabul after a struggle spread over two decades. The Hindus under king Jayapala of Udbhandapur made a bold bid to recapture Kabul in AD 986-987. A confederate Hindu army to which the Rajas of Delhi, Ajmer, Kalinjar and Kanauj has contributed troops and money, advanced into the heartland of the Islamic kingdom of Ghazni. ?According to Utbi, the battle lasted several days and the warriors of Subuktigin, including prince Mahmood, were ?reduced to despair.? But a snow-storm and rains upset the plans of Jayapala who opened negotiations for peace. He sent the following message to Subuktigin: ?You have heard and know the nobleness of Indians - they fear not death or destruction? In affairs of honour and renown we would place ourselves upon the fire like roast meat, and upon the dagger like the sunrays.??19 But the peace thus concluded proved temporary. The Muslims resumed the offensive and the Hindus were defeated and driven out of Kabul. Dr. Mishra concludes with the comment that Jayapala ?was perhaps the last Indian ruler to show such spirit of aggression, so sadly lacking in later Rajput kings?.


Aur harami yeh baat such hai ki the killings of 1947 in the Punjab started when the Aligarhis started their insidous Pak movement propaganda (how pigs were being slaughtered in mosques in UP under Congress's Ram Rajya) and the same would happen in the Punjab as well. Ungrateful b**strds forgetting that the Hindus had purchased both the Fatehpuri and Jama Masjids of Delhi from the Brits and gifted them to the Delhi Muslims as a token of their goodwill to Muslims.

Ingrate bastuuuurds that is Hindustani Mussalmans and Stupidity thy name is Punjabi Muslims. Even though the moon god has not specified any penalty for the same they should start thinking and not get swayed by the ideologues who come from UP either Barelvis or Deobandis.

One thing is true these guys have it coming on both sides of the border. Keep the pot boiling the result will be very sweet for us.

Sanatani

vengatramanan, it will. One can already see movement toward that goal.

Re: # 467

Its time for a more inclusive growth. Brahmins are also sons of the soil. Mutual distrust is quite high. This has to go off.

#477 sattar: very well said. thanks.

pavocavalry: Many thanks for correcting my wrong impression - so, the events as i understand them are:

Date: Sept 8 1965
Location: Kashmir. 11 Cav advances to Jaurian
Location: Chawinda. 25 Cav blocks Indian 1 armored div

Date: Sept 9 1965
11 Cav ordered to move to Chawinda

Date Sept 11 1965 (This is my assumption, based on my recalling being told that it took a couple of days for the regiment to move from Jaurian and take up defensive position at Chawinda (or was it nearby Phillaurah?)

11 Cav faces 1 Armored Div. Right flank of 11 Cav is attacked by indian regiment, knocks out some indian tanks causing indian regiment of 1 armored div to back off. A second Indian regiment advances towards the left flank of 11 cav, with repeat of above and indian regiment backing off. Next, Indian artillery knocks out regiment HQ, killing/wounding regimental command. Indian regiments then move forward and overrun 11 Cav defenses.

After this I run into a blank - What happened the rest of the day? What caused the Indian armored div from advancing further? What happened in this sector from September 11 through September 22? Is there any marker at Phillaurah where the 11 Cav was positioned?

I would be much obliged for any light you could throw on the above. Also, have you considered contributing to wikipedia on the 1965 war?

tahmed (#465),

A general comment: �Facts� and �logic� can de dangerous if applied beyond the proper context. It is one thing to know facts … but quite another to understand how facts relate to each other, if at all. One may connect dots in several ways and each way brings to view a different picture. So knowing facts alone, without understanding the underlying context, is not enough.

For example, fact is that I wore blue socks today and I did not get hit by a truck. Draw your own conclusions.

Re: # 475 Major Sahib,
What you have said in the last two posts makes sense to me.

I raised the point because Zee Sahib's last post suggests that the same team was behind both Zia's and BB's assasination.

Which seems to lend support to the theory that the Americans (with support of elements in the Pak armed forces) did BB in.

After all the pavement pounding she has been doing in Washington these past few years, is that how Uncle Sam wanted to thank her?

Re: # 474 shias could not have done it alone.i understand that one or two technicians were shias.

but just note what i heard from an airforce officer who was stationed in multan airbase at that time.

the rear cargo door of that C 130 was stolen from Multan airbase.This door is many tons in weight.

Re: # 473 I was in Multan and my regiment was responsible for that accursed man's lunch.

To me it appears that it was an operation launched by Americans with active support of elements in paki army and air force.however the soviet involvement cannot be ruled out at least in logistics.

It was thought in many quarters in american policy making circles that zia's adventurism had to be curtailed.he had already made a fool of americans by diverting a part of US aid to dumps which were later used to support the kashmir mujahids.

Pavo, Zee Sahib:

For the benefit of simpletons like me, who was the team behind Zia's assasination?

Lat I heard it was the Russian/American/MOssad/Shia brigade, but this latest shosha seems to suggest it was the ISI?

Again, the question I ask myself is, why? What did ISI have to gain by getting rid of Zia, Akhtar AbdurRahman, and Mr. Raphael?

Re: # 465 Thanks for the positive remarks about Chawinda.

Please insert a correction:--

25 Cavalry saved the day on 8th September when 11 Cavalry was advancing towards Jaurian.

11 Cavalry was ordered to Chawinda after 9th.

When 11 Cavalry did reach Chawinda the Indians had already because of their own very stupid brigadier KK Singh Sparrow Commander 1st Armoured Brigade lost the opportunity to outflank 25 Cavalry.

If KK Singh had any resolution and generalship Chawinda was a straight Pakistani failure.

Interestingly 25 Cavalry also acted thinking that they were not opposed by the Indian armoured division.

The Pakistani brigade commander Abdul Ali Malik had lost his nerve and as per Shaukat Riza Pakistan's official historian just asked Lt Col Nisar Commanding Officer 25 Cavalry ..."Nisar Do Something".

In 5 Minutes over Islamabad I had theorised Islamabad as a good nuclear target because its physically impossible to target Pakistan's nuclear assets.Islamabad on the other hand has all the good things that a target should have.

Mr Feroz K

You say :---

Secondly; Hitler made a mess of the operational schedules of the German Army. When the Germans were on the outskirts of Moscow, Hitler ordered that the capture of the Baku oil fields was the primary target and not Moscow and then changed his mind again and said Moscow was the prime target. In the process, the German advance was fragmented as the Wehrmacht was send on a goose chase and the Red Army had the opportunity to bring up reinforcements from the east; and by the time the Germans did get close to Moscow, again, the weather had turned against them and first snow had started to fall - making the roads impassable for the armor and the Soviets counter-attacked the Germans."


Here was gone quite wrong.

When the Germans captured Smolensk on the central highway to Moscow.They were supposed to go straight for Moscow.At this stage Hitler instead decide to encircle Kiev in the South.Thats why the Germans were delayed for 8 weeks and winter arrived.

For support to this argument you may read Albert Seatons " THE RUSSO GERMAN WAR" , Colonel General Guderians memoirs PANZER LEADER, Field Marshal Manstein's LOST VICTORIES,Alexander Werths book on Russia and Mellenthin's PANZER LEADER.

The Russian Baku oilfields came in 1942 much later.In this case also the target were the Grozny Oilfield in Chechnya .At that time one of the largest in USSR.

Re: # 461 the family member who is known to have practised extreme sycophancy with Zia was Defence Attache in USA before he became Zia's Military Secretary or at least before 1987.Its possible that he was converted as they say in Intelligence methodolgy by Americans.

Interestingly the same man is again Pakistan's ambassador to USA.

Re: # 463 Good Sir , at least at some points we agree.

Masan Bhai,

Well said. The fkr is crude and idiotic on this issue. But at the same time let us accept they have been at the receieving end esp from those who were not relly oppressed by them Nadars, Kallars, Thevars, Mudaliars and Vanniars.

You may disagree.

Regards
Sanatani

'Actually black on black violence in the inner cities is very high, and the AA who can "hope" for becomming president just like you can "hope" to make a reasonable argument must make sure that i) he is of lighter complexion than the rest of his group, as is the case with Obama and was the case with Powell ii) is part of the establishment meaning he wont do anything cukoo like get real civil rights for the people and iii) even when he fulfils 1 and ii white racism will pick on him with racial slurs, even America's first black president Bill Clinton is not immune from using racial slurs when a black approaches a prominent position"

Madani Sahab ab aap Phuddoon ki tarah bate kar rahe ho.

This reminds me of my Sudanese Senior in College who said Damn country is so hot I have become black and now Government of India must pay for my fair and lovely. We took this jest upto the head of Indian Council of Cultural Relations. A junior IAS type was handed the case and he understood the jest said Sorry Khalid i have checked with the company that F&L is for ladies go back to Sudan get a wife next year we shall buy her F&L.

So Barrack Obama is white and Billa black. Gr8.

As i said ab aap Phuddon ki tarah batein kar rahe ho.

Sanatani

Mr. Madani: thank you for the lengthy post defending mr. pavocavalry and mr. masadi intellectual credentials. I have read mr. pavocavalry's accounts of the 1965 battle, and they have definitely filled in some missing pieces on the Chawinda battle (particularly, the role of the 25th cavalry in blocking the indians after the 11th cavalry was finally overwhelmed by the much larger force of an entire armored division), and will forever be in debt to him for that for very personal reasons. If I agree or disagree with him on something, I do so on issues of fact or logic. Would you want me to ignore what I consider to be obvious facts simply in order to be in agreement with someone?

For masadi I have no respect for reasons that should be obvious if you read my post to him below.

Sir,

Brilliantly said. I salute you.

As somebody who is otherwise very pro brahmin except when they behave like Harimau or the way the fjkrs behave in Jagannath of Puri and the Dhams, it seems to me these guts like the Muslais are asking for it.

Regards to you.
Sanatani

P.S. Probably this choooth does not know the origins of the sages after which these BRahmins are named after

pavocavalry #443 "It would be simplistic to say that Russia or the USA alone was the real victor of WW 2."

That is what I was saying earlier when I said that saying that the USSR or the US was responsible for beating germans was like arguing about whether it is the left hand or the right hand that made the clap (or, more accurately, squished the Nazi jooN (head louse). So we agree on this basic point.

However, re the following post, I believe the 'Hatch' was a usual move which Benazir had been recently making, and was expected to do this time too.

But, if she had NOT made that move, the killers would have followed her, or more devices/plans along her route, so she wasn't going to remain alive that day.

I don't think it was an inside job by her own people, though nothing can be ruled out.

Investigating Benazir's Assassination

Commodore Tariq Majeed PN (Retd)

The legendary fictional detective Sherlock Holmes with Dr Watson by his side was pondering over the murder case, when he suddenly exclaimed, "The dog, Watson, the dog!" "But, Holmes, the dog did not bark," said Dr Watson. "That's it, Watson. The dog—did not bark."

What Holmes meant was, had the intruder been a stranger, the dog would have barked. There was a key clue in it to the mystery.

Consider Sherlock Holmes looking into the circumstances of Benazir Bhutto's assassination on 27 December 2007 near Liaquat Bagh in Rawalpindi. He would have soon exclaimed, "The sunroof hatch, Watson, the sunroof hatch!" "But, Holmes, she just raised her head out of the hatch to wave back to her supporters." "That's it, Watson. "She raised her head out of the hatch—and the killers were ready waiting for that very move. "

Benazir was not supposed to raise her head out of the hatch. Something or someone prompted her. Some one should have stopped her, but did not. A vital clue has to be found here. An investigator would be debasing his own intelligence if he thought that the killers were counting on a lucky chance that Benazir might show up outside the hatch and they would accomplish their murderous mission.

No, there was no question of taking a chance. The schemers had to ensure that Benazir would protrude her head out of the hatch when her vehicle was at the chosen spot; their whole devilish scheme was hinged on this step. It was a prerequisite for their scheme. How did they arrange it? Finding it out will uncover very valuable leads.

We know from press reports that, "On 27 December, after Benazir's speech at the Liaquat Bagh gathering, when her vehicle reached Liaquat Road a mysterious crowd appeared all of a sudden and surrounded her vehicle, while shouting slogans in favour of People's Party and Benazir Bhutto. The vehicle was halted. At this Benazir emerged out of the sunroof to respond to their cheers."

Was this the only maneuver to halt her vehicle and prompt her to stand up and show herself out of the hatch? Highly unlikely. It was a very important objective. There must have been a couple of other catalysts to lead to that objective.

Look back at the August 1988 crash of President Zia's C-130 aircraft in which thirty other innocent persons, including the American ambassador and nine army officers of brigadier to 4-star general rank, and a precious lot of PAF officers and technicians, perished. Having selected the method and planned the killing operation, the masterminds employed a number of instruments to ensure that General Ziaul Haq would embark the aircraft to fly to Bahawalpur to watch demonstration of a new tank on the operation's D-Day, 17 August.

The chief, and most reliable, instrument was his former military secretary who was now an armoured division's commander in Multan and in charge of the demonstration, and who was on such intimate terms with the general as he was treated as a family member.

Zia was reluctant to go. The "family member" kept making repeated telephone calls requesting him to come and see the demonstration, till Zia relented; of course influenced also by the other ploys. The masterminds could not afford to fail. They had made foolproof arrangements not only for President Zia but also for General Akhtar Abdul Rahman and Ambassador Arnold Raphel, who both were on the masterminds' kill list, to make certain that they will be onboard the C-130.

Autopsy on Benazir Bhutto before burial was essential, but it was not performed. Reportedly, it was not permitted by her next of kin. No post-mortem was carried out in the case of the C-130 casualties, too. In that case the highest authorities in the army had prohibited post-mortem of the bodies. That was a part of the sinister scheme.

What about the present case? There was every reason, in fact a crying need, for a post-mortem of the awfully slain body. Was prohibiting post-mortem a personal decision of Asif Ali Zardari or was it a built-in programmed feature? It shouldn't be too difficult for a genuine investigator to find the correct answer and draw the right conclusion.

Post-mortem was also necessary to check if Benazir had been given a dose of any drug. There are drugs that can induce a calculated reaction or emotion in a person—and even at a programmed time. It could be seen in the television clips of her public address at Liaquat Bagh that she was emotionally intensely worked up. At one time she was shown with her arms thrust forward and upward and flailing them with unusual force. An example of how drugs can be used on political leaders and VIPs for specific purposes pertains to George Bush Sr, US president 1988-92.

In the 1992 election, the powerful clique in America, which wields decisive political influence, wanted Bush to lose and Bill Clinton to win. The US media depicted Clinton as youthful and full of energy and Bush as too old for the job and suffering from health problems. Bush went on a state visit to Japan. There was an exclusive banquet in his honour. Media men were not allowed in the banquet hall. Bush arrived accompanied by the Japanese premier. As they sat down, Bush, who habitually drank some water before dinner, lifted the glass of water that had been placed for him and drank from it. The next moment he threw up, his vomit falling on the lap of the Japanese premier! A photographer, who, the media said, had been hiding under a table, took the picture of the US president throwing up in the lap of the prime minister of Japan.

The story did incalculable, or rather well-calculated, harm to Bush's image in the American public. The scheme's masterminds, knowing Bush's habit, used a drug that if taken with water induces uncontrollable vomiting. It should also be obvious that the masterminds, remaining thousands of miles away, can get things done through local tools.

Princess Diana did not die in an unforeseen car accident. The accident was pre-planned. She was murdered by design. The chauffeur of her car had been drugged.

There is another close similarity between the two shocking crimes, the assassination of President Ziaul Haq and that of Benazir Bhutto. Actually, the "shock effect" itself is an element common to them. The dreadful cruelty and the precision and suddenness with which it was inflicted in each case were meant to psychologically paralyze the public that was a deliberate aim of the master schemers.

However, the close similarity mentioned above is the swift cleaning out of the site of crime. In this respect, what the Shafiur Rehman Inquiry Commission on the C-130 crash observed in its report was something like this: [Soon after the crash], "The personal items and baggage of the deceased persons had been removed from the scene, and the signs and marks which these items carried, and which had to be preserved in order to unfold the secrets had been [quickly] effaced." The same thing happened in the current case. The site of Benazir's assassination was cleaned up with extraordinary speed and efficiency. There can be no doubt that it was a programmed feature, just as it was so in the assassination of Ziaul Haq and 30 others. Again, intelligent investigators can trace from it substantial leads to the local criminals and accomplices.

The investigators should closely examine Ziaul Haq's assassination case, the details and analysis of which can be found in the book Masterminds of Air Massacres: of August 17 in Pakistan and September 11 in America.

It would give them valuable new insight not only on discovering the local tools and pawns who executed the scheme's various tasks but also the identity of the real criminals, the masterminds. Profound perceptiveness and sincerity of purpose is necessary for the investigators to comprehend the masterminds' deeply destructive aims against Pakistan. These aims would reveal the real reasons behind the murder they are investigating.

The foreign investigators may find the local culprits but will never point to the real masterminds. The masterminds of Benazir's assassination are the same who assassinated Ziaul Haq.

Strange are the vagaries of fate.

masadi #449 "HP mian very disappointing your lack of condemnation of tahmed's total barbarism and back stabbing of our people. "

I did not realize that confronting you with facts that you cant respond to in any rational manner is barbarism.

And dont hide behind "our people" you hypocrite - from your posts it is obvious that the only thing that concerns you is your own ego. Throughtout 2007, when Pakistanis were struggling to be free, you were trying to draw attention away from Musharraf and point to the evil "US elite".

As I said, while you are a mere joke on chowk, I know quite well individuals like you in Pakistan who love to spread lies about the US in order to pose as "intellectuals". It is individuals like you who have misled thousands of young Pakistanis to see as enemies people who mean them no harm, and to see as friends the arab thugs and central asian scoundrels who are looking for nothing more than to carve out a little kingdom for themselves in Swat and Waziristan and other places.

#448 masadi: So the fact that the US has bases around the world means it seeks to take over the surrounding territories?

Too bad the British, Germans, Icelanders, Spaniards, Italians, Turks, Central Asians, Japanese, and Australians are not aware that US forces are there to turn them into the 51st, 52nd, 53rd...58th states!! And no doubt the US cant wait to have Iraq and Afghanistan join the union as the 59th and 60th states!!

re: fuzair # 457

Fuzair, you are very correct in your hypothesis for a probable German victory over the Russians.

Operation Barbarossa was scheduled for early spring 1941. The delay resulted from the fact that Hitler's ally, Mussolini, decided to invade Albania and got bogged down there and the Germans had to come to his rescue. In the process of subjugating the Balkans, the Wehrmacht lost critical time and had to re-inventory its losses and Barbarossa was pushed back to early summer.

Secondly; Hitler made a mess of the operational schedules of the German Army. When the Germans were on the outskirts of Moscow, Hitler ordered that the capture of the Baku oil fields was the primary target and not Moscow and then changed his mind again and said Moscow was the prime target. In the process, the German advance was fragmented as the Wehrmacht was send on a goose chase and the Red Army had the opportunity to bring up reinforcements from the east; and by the time the Germans did get close to Moscow, again, the weather had turned against them and first snow had started to fall - making the roads impassable for the armor and the Soviets counter-attacked the Germans.

There is a possibility that had Hitler not over ruled the professional advice of his generals and diverted the spearhead of the German advance southwards, towards Baku, the Germans might have entered Moscow by late October and the war might have had a different result.

The German military, from a study of its internal memos, had warned Hitler that German army was still in a state of rearming and would not be fully operational, for war, till 1942 or 1943. The German Navy had said that same that the German naval rearmament program was still in the process and the German Navy need till 1944 or 1945 before it could support the army; only the Luftwaffe had attained war readiness status (courtsey of the Spanish Civil War) and the professional military advice to Hitler was to delay the onset of the war till mid-1940s.

Ciao
Ciao

A rare post from Feroz!

The Germans would have (maybe) beaten the Soviets if Barbarossa had not been delayed several weeks and Hitler not overruled his generals who wanted to push it back a year. Hitler also overruled his generals who wanted to push staight on to Moscow.

In any case, the scale of the fighting can be gauged by the fact that one German general in three was killed, not wounded but killed, by enemy action in WWII, most on the Eastern Front.

I thought the best tank of WWII was the Mk V Panzer, not the T-34--which, btw, was based on an American design, Walter Christie's, which was rejected by the US. Maybe the good major, who is a tanker, can enlighten us?

Read General Franz Haldler's War Diary in which he details the preparation for the opening of Operation Barbarossa.

The vast bulk of the Wehrmacht was committed to the fight against Russia. The Eastern Front was the most crucial front of the Second World War and it was at Stalingrad that the German Army suffered its first loss in the war.

It was on the Eastern Front that the flower of the German Army was totally destroyed; a loss from which the Wehrmacht never recovered.

Ciao

Re: # 436

Again your knowledge of military history is rudimentary.The maximum share of fighting in WW 2 was done by Red Army who suffered some 90 % of all casualties suffered in total by allies.

The allies were able to land in France only after the Soviets had inflicted severe losses on the Germans.


Ans: Does the number of casualties in Russian side makes them the greatest contributor?
The weather is/was the most deciding factor in case of Russia (even good teams from Italy, Germany looses match to Dynamo, Kiev in their home ground due to extreame cold).

Re: # 341
The whole thesis falls flat on its face when the author believes that the US could possibly launch a nuclear strike on Islamabad or Kahuta. The nuke assests are not in Islamabad and surgical nuke strike on a populated area would not only meet internal opposition within the US admin and politicians but would also be opposed by the many other countries including India, China and Russia. The US is unable to pull that hoax over Iran despite many threats

Ans: If USA wants to bomb Pakistan, I don't think India, China can do anything. Russia has no stake in Pakistan (thanks to Afghan war). Iraq was major friend of India in middle east. India was not able to verbally attack directly to USA ("It is time the superpower showed some restraint and sought U.N. mediation to resolve the dispute.". That much only!!!!). China is trying to create a military camp with help of Russia. But Russia and China can not be good friends (lesson from Tibbet). It was Israel, who wanted to bomb Kahuta with help of India. India had denied access to its airbase for the use of Israel.

Re: # 435
For extreamly creative people, school is definitely not a nice place. The story repeats for Tagore also.

http://www.mukto-mona.com/Articles/tagore_einstein.jpg

Re: # 435
For extreamly creative people, school is definitely not a nice place. The story repeats for Tagore also.

http://www.mukto-mona.com/Articles/tagore_einstein.jpg

Also read "also ended my supporting capitalism instead of socialistic princpiles."

as "also ended by supporting capitalism instead of socialistic princpiles.


p.s To state that tahmed has a US centric view is to put his disease very mildly and forgivingly. He outdoes the most bigoted of rednecks in supporting the US position even when their own elite will at times admit their myopic mistakes (but keep on with the same policies). HP mian very disappointing your lack of condemnation of tahmed's total barbarism and back stabbing of our people.

In #433 addressed to HP, read " bleed them and the russians" as "bleed them and the Germans"

#433, nothing in my post is from the SU propaganda machine. I believe they made a terrible mistake by being an ally to the US who was trying to bleed them and the russians at the same time. My post only has the facts, the SU is responsible for converting the world post WW2 into a unipolar US dominated world and then playing their militarism game to keep them in the dominant position. They not only sacrificed their own people for that end but also ended my supporting capitalism instead of socialistic princpiles. Nothing here is from the SU propaganda machine, in fact they would consider me a "traitor" were I to say this during their hey days...

tahmed writes "If anyone thinks the US is looking for territorial expansion today, then he is - to put it gently - not in touch with reality"

So the 800+ military bases all around the globe are "hanging in the air" and not on any territory? with newer and bigger and better ones being planned all the time? It is you tahmed who is deliberately and deceitfully out of touch with reality...

Harimau,

"During his childhood, Mendel worked as a gardener, studied beekeeping, and as a young man attended the Philosophical Institute in Olomouc"

"In school, the young Edison's mind often wandered, and his teacher, the Reverend Engle, was overheard calling him "addled." This ended Edison's three months of official schooling. His mother then home schooled him.

"Edison's family was forced to move to Port Huron, Michigan, when the railroad bypassed Milan in 1854,[5] but his life there was bittersweet. He sold candy and newspapers on trains running from Port Huron to Detroit, as well as vegetables that he sold to supplement his income. "

How many of your ilk wants to be a scientist this way? You have been cramming for generations and cleverly made that as the art to master, to get into colleges. You've fooled gullible masses by feigning as God's conduit thereby exploiting their hard work for your living.

Perhaps, you should abstain seeing a 'lingam' for some time. The black lingams clearly have had a profound effect on your gene pool and hence your jealousy towards goats or the proclivity to become one.

Re: # 440
It is interesting and worth studying how at start red army was more or less like 1st world war army , static and this made great detrimental destruction of red army due to lack knowlege of useing mechanised forces as thrust and not infantry. With short time of 6 months russians picked up what they saw on battlefield and changed way of fighting to match enemy. That is very difficult as even army officers had to learn and use new ways.
Backward Techinically russians were not backward they developed best tank ww2 , T34, or use of battries mounted on trucks very efficiently. They did not institted just heavy unworking machine like Kirov Voroshilov, use of sticky bombs against germans. Germans were astonished by T-34 ability to absorb several strikes and not burst, they had developed better more ductile , metallurgical steel. They had management , they moved most factories east of Urals so swiftly and war production was started.

Just it happened and Red Army defeated german does not mean it was easy or ordinary. Let us be respectful of Army which saved world.
Good day.

Some facts from the WW Two:--


An objective comparison of the scale, intensity and duration of fighting on the WW2 fronts shows that the Eastern (Soviet-German) front was of crucial significance from 1941 to 1945. Some 190 to 270 of the best divisions of the Wehrmacht and the armed forces of satellite countries fought simultaneously on the Eastern front. In Northern Africa, the Allies stood up against 9-20 divisions in 1941 -1943, 7-26 divisions in Italy in 1943-1945, and 56-75 divisions in France in 1944.

The maximum length of the Eastern front was 6,200 km, while the frontline in Africa was 350 km, about 300 km in Italy, and up to 1,000 km in Western Europe. Active hostilities on the Eastern front lasted 1,320 of the 1,418 days of the Great Patriotic War (93% of the total), while fighting on the Western fronts lasted only 1,094 of the 2,069 days of the Second World War of 1939-1945(53%).

The Red Army routed 607 divisions of the enemy, while the Allied forces defeated 176. The Wehrmacht's losses in the East amounted to 73.5% of overall casualties and up to 75% of lost weapons and hardware. The irretrievable losses of the Soviet Union were 8.6 million, while the losses of the German army were 7 million and of its satellites, 0.95 million. Our Allies' aggregate losses were 1,471,000; of this figure, the US lost 405,000, Britain 375,000, France 600,000, Canada 37,000, Australia 35,000, New Zealand 12,000, and the Union of South Africa 7,000.

The Soviet Union hoped, with good reason, that a second front would be opened in Europe before 1944. It is true that the Allies' actions at sea, in Africa and Sicily contributed to the common victory, yet the outcome of the war was decided on the main strategic theatres that led to the vital centres of Germany.

#439 Posted by ijaz_gul
"I do not that agree that the army is fighting on both sides, though I agree someone is. Most probably, these are the intelligence agencies that I call GREY."

Mark my words again Ijaz, you are making a serious mistake in reading the Pak army. You cannot separate the army from the army intelligence agencies. They are not independent and don't operate without some sort of coordination.

It is true that CIA is a big player in Pakistan but I doubt that they can use the agencies w/o the army high command knowing about it or providing tactical approval.

It would be simplistic to say that Russia or the USA alone was the real victor of WW 2.The conclusion is that USA supplied the money and the weapons from its vast industry.Britain was the base area from where the strategic air offensive was launched on Germany.The Red Army did most of the most tough job .Fighting the vast bulk of Germans.

Tailpiece:-- When I attended the Red Army Afghan Veterans conference some 12 yaers back I was surprised to discover that some 50 Chechen Muslims won the highest Red Army Gallantry award in WW Two called Hero of the Soviet Union.

#437 Posted by ijaz_gul

"Both Napoleon's Army and Geraman Armies were decimated because they operated on Exterior Lines and also the harsh Russian winter."

Yes, there are many angles and people have written volumes about this. We obviously can only cover the basics in our posts.
I don't read military histories any more but I would say to you that don't apply the winter theory so casually. It might have been the case with the Napolean's army but the Germany fought more than one winter in Russia.

German's suffered from indecisions, poor communications and infighting between the army commanders in Berlin. There were many factors and as I said the tide turned in the Soviet favor after the US suplies and the German's suffered from their own supply and gas shortages issues.

This subject is so vast that a few posts are not enough to justify any claim.

Re: # 431
Mr T... Please do not say mr. Cavalry as ignorant. He is absolutely correct if he said the north african campaign or D day business or battles in southern Europe were minor importance compared to eastern front.
As said victors write history and make movies, systematically the earstern front war was not projected as as important compared to little actions on anglo american side.
Never has in history was such number assembled on easternfront, 3 million men , battle hardened german army and airforce.Even Hitler himself told his generals "when Borborossa begins world will hold breathe". He lined up his three million men along eastern border and expected to deafeat russia in 6 weeks but after 3 years of devastating battles his forces met final defeat in freezing streets of Leningrad, stanlingrad and Moscow. Initially advanc was so swift and fast when Russians called their more experienced generals from namely timoshenko and Zukov , they could not believe when they looked at maps where they will stand up and fight. All german armies were sriking distance in north towards leningrad, they were advancing towards moscow, German have moved swiftly through Ukrane and towards south russian and looking at possible advances on Baku. At same time russian forces were facing Imperial Japanese forces on their far east front. ( fortunately for russia they had devasted japanese army when incursion occured on soviet terrotary). So their siberian troops were pinned in east due fear of japanese army stationed and watching russian moves.
Purposely AngloAmericans were engaged on minor fronts away from france but in North Africa. Russians were asking allies to open some front in Europe to relieve some pressure on them , even supplies were token sybolic than of any use.
Russians fought single handedly nazi and stop them front of moscow, stanlingrad, Leningrad.
From there on Russian started directing war as they wanted and German in reactive mode. The final offensive on easterfront by german was at Krusk salient, biggest tank battle in world history and German lost and they lost initiyuve once for all.Last german winter offensive matched by red armies counter offensive and and it was stalemate with advantage on russian side.
Now the final outcome was already clear and Russians were going to kill german army without help from angloamericans.
Then it was just hard time advancing.
But Final outcome was clear then only angloamericans started their moves. Honestly they started to move as they wanted to have "western Europe" otherwise without any efforts of anglo americans they red army will have come to france.
Ten 10% of russian population about 22million people died but not in vain,the country was devastated. Not only russian army but russian people fought hard every way. Let us not diminish the sacrafice done by russians.
You may read book by Alexzander worth "Russia at war" or by German side which gives quite operational details by german side by German army man "Paul Elrich" Operation Barborossa.
Surprisingly most german writers condier major battles/ war as Easternfront, even german officer who wrote later give full credit to red army for defeating them show great respect for their skills and sacrafices.

It is not necessary to demean the greatest contribution made towards liberation from nazi forces by russians. Being american does not mean one has to follow "party line". You need to read and what Mr. Masadi is angry towards you as he does not like you "Partyline".

( so it was laughable when ZAB bragged about Dakka will defended as Stalingrad. Over exggration has limits )

Mr.Masadi and Mr. Cavalary both right in this matter.
Generally I have no good knowledge about most things, but I felt you are wrong so I wrote.
Have good day

It was aqreed strategy of allies that Germany was the main threat.Japan was a secondary player.

Allied strategy against Germany was to aid the USSR to tie down maximum German forces.True that the USSR was armed by US aid but also true that the USSR did maximum fighting.The allies once they attacked France were just confronting a very small portion of German forces while bulk of German forces were committed against Russia.Only 10 out of 100 killed in allies were British or German.

I am sorry for some mistakes. I am re posting.

Re: # 434
HP,
WW-II
I agree with you on the USA/SU point. I would add that as far as USSR is concerened, Terrain and Weather have always been a Blessing for Russians. Both Napoleon's Army and German Armies were decimated because they operated on Exterior Lines and also the harsh Russian winter. In both cases, the armies crossed the Culminating Points well short of objectives and the friction added to their woes. Thereafter, it was survival.
Militancy in NWFP
I would partially agree. In tactics, there is something known as Engagement on a Broad Front. Insurgents can do it much easily through small numbers. This helps them keep the army Dispersed all over from SWS to Swat. What the army loses is the 'Concentration of Force and Effort'.
I do not that agree that the army is fighting on both sides, though I agree someone is. Most probably, these are the intelligence agencies that I call GREY.
Cheerios

Waziristan

www.orbat.com



Normally the article below by Major AH Amin (Pakistan Army, Retired) would be in ANALYSIS. But because of the importance of the topic, we're printing it here. For those unfamiliar with Major Amin: he writes for a Pakistani audience and readers may find some of his references a bit oblique. We've explained best we can. He is very sharp spoken, without dissimulation or politeness. His acerbic characterization of Pakistani intelligence is, alas, all too common among the world's intelligence agencies. As for his attack on Pakistan Army tactics, the same can be said of many armies we need not name.



Waziristan is the testing ground, the acid test of Pakistan Army's worth in the so- called war against terrorism.

What is the Pakistani intelligence ? An intelligence operative stated that they don't have the guts to go out of a fort of FC in Waziristan. They meekly step out of a Qila (fort) and stop some truck drivers and ask what's going on. From what they scramble all the guys from Military Intelligence, the ISI , the Corps Intelligence and the FC Intelligence sit down and make a generally similar report. The guy who compares all reports in GHQ jumps with joy when he sees all these reports and states that all reports can be cross checked and are correct. There is the Sab Accha mentality since Mughal times. Sab Accha means All Correct. So in the final summing it is gleefully concluded that the writ of the Pakistani Government is established in all parts of tribal areas! Glory be to Allah.

I recently met some mid-ranking and major-general level army officers and discussed Waziristan with them. We concluded:

Waziristan is a case of clash of interests among ambitious officers trying to get a good chit (report) and serious regimental officers who see soldiering as a way of life. The fast-track guys want to bash up some villages with artillery fire and do some dog catching for Americans and improve their career index called OEI.

The first major disaster was Lt.-Gen. Safdar, a Punjabi and a careerist. He wanted a fast-track approach for the problem, .His policy was bomb everyone, kill everyone and get the feathers in the cap for being a conqueror. This was counter-productive. The armed forces lost all credibility in this area. Safdar was finally packed off to the post of director logistics in the army Headquarters a post seen as waiting area for dumped generals.

Lieutenant General Hamid Khan, a Pashtun armored corps officer from 11 Cavalry was not effective. During his tenure the army was neither here nor there. He was serving for most of the time when the Waziristan accord had been signed.

The present corps commander Masud Aslam was a Kargil Warrior! (Major Amin is not being complimentary.) He again tried to introduce the Safdar policy with disastrous results.

One Major General level divisional commander stood out. Strangely it was a Shia officer, Major General Mir Haider. Although a Punjabi he understood the Pasthun psyche and did well. His modus operandi was psy war. Healing the tribal eg . Gifting copies of Holy Quran.

Another Major General Sahi was a failure. Again he was using the Safdar approach. Kill , batter , destroy and bomb. Sahi had close links with the Quisling PML (President Musharraf's political party: the writer believes Pakistan has sold out to the Americans) as his brother was a politician from that party. In words of a direct participant officer, he was also a total failure. He was finally packed off as commandant of infantry school. Another resting place of dumped generals. In his dining out he said that he had established writ of Pakistani Government in Waziristan and was corrected there and then by a serving army officer that this was a white lie. He was challenged that he could not drive with his GOC's flag from Miran Shah to Bannu even with an escort! He was infamous in the Frontier Corps Officers for trying to prod them to attack this village or that because he wanted to get a good chit from his bosses.

A serving army officer in that area compared Pakistan Army and the FC in Waziristan to a mouse running from point A to point B while he said that the tribals were the lazy cat watching this despicable mouse.

We further concluded:

The great danger is not Pakistan but the fall-out after its demise.

The great danger to the West is not the hopeless Pakistani state but non-state actors

The more Pakistani Don Quixotes are proved to be spineless clowns in Waziristan, the more dangerous the situation becomes.

Warfare has become cheap. It is easy to rock the boat and non-state actors are good at this.

The front is unclear. The distinction between friend and foe unclear.

My assessment is that if the Americans decide to knock out Pakistan , in strategic terms , there will be no resistance in Punjab and Sindh ,only the Pashtuns will be their adversaries and the settled area Pashtuns will be as hopeless as the Punjabis and Sindhis.

Pakistan's military and political establishment is simply hopeless. This theme is discussed in my article "5 minutes over Islamabad" (the article details how the US forced Pakistan to join it's side in the GWOT.) The Pakistani military junta has already lost all credibility with the Pakistani population and cannot control the situation.

Even the Americans will not achieve much if they enter Waziristan. The terrain is bad and Americans will be a good cause for Jihad. The solution is withdrawal from Waziristan and regime change in Pakistan. The Americans should let the hopeless Paki politicians do the dirty job of all this.

As an officer who served in Pakistan Army I would sum up the situation as following:

The Pakistani High Command a Punjabi-Mohajir (Mohajirs are Pakistans who migrated from India to the new country of Pakistan in/after 1947) team lacks the grey matter or resolve to deal with the tribals.

The troops they are commanding have lost faith in the cause they are fighting for. This is the worst thing for an army.

All said and done the tribals can be dealt politically. Any Pakistani officer who is posted as commander 11 Corps is a job seeker. He is trying to be a Napoleon and a Punjabi cannot be a Napoleon with a tribal!

The present Governor of NWFP Owais Ghani has already miserably failed in Baluchistan. He is regarded as a non-Pashtun as he is the hated Hindko Punjabi (we dont know what Hindko means; Hind generally refers to India) speaking from Peshawar city just like General Kakar, whose first cousin he is.

The whole situation requires a change in command in Pakistan from top to bottom.

Re: # 434
HP,
WW-II
I agree with you on the USA/SU point. I would add that as far as USSR is concerened, Terrain and Weather have always been a Blessing for Russians. Both Napoleon's Army and Geraman Armies were decimated because they operated on Exterior Lines and also the harsh Russian winter. In both cases, the armies fell well short of the culminating points and the friction added to their woes. Thereafter, it was survival.
Militancy in NWFP
I would partially agree. In tactics, there is something known as Engagement on a Broad Front. Insurgents can do it much easily through small numbers. This helps them keep the army Dispersed all over from SWS to Swat. What the army loses is the 'Concentration of Force and Effort'.
I do that agree that the army is fighting on both sides, though I agree someone is. Most probably, these are the intelligence agencies that I call GREY.
Cheerios

Re: # 431 you need to read basic military history.The Japanese aim was not to conquer India but to secure their Western side by denying British air bases.

Again your knowledge of military history is rudimentary.The maximum share of fighting in WW 2 was done by Red Army who suffered some 90 % of all casualties suffered in total by allies.

The allies were able to land in France only after the Soviets had inflicted severe losses on the Germans.

British and American casualties were far smaller than Russians since they did very less part of the fighting.

My sincere advice to you is to read history . See what the facts are and rthen post your views.

No bitter feelings.This is just a friendly advice.

Re: # 420

Harimau,


"Rather than completing high school, Albert decided to apply directly to the ETH Zurich, the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in Zurich, Switzerland. Without a school certificate, he was required to take an entrance examination, which he did not pass."

"In his early teens, Albert attended the new and progressive Luitpold Gymnasium. His father intended for him to pursue electrical engineering, but Albert clashed with authorities and resented the school regimen. He later wrote that the spirit of learning and creative thought were lost in strict rote learning."


ROTE learning:- Your forte

#427 Posted by iron_mask
If you read my posts, you will realize that I have been saying this all along. The Pak army is fighting on the both sides. Jihadi are just a front of the Pak army.

Something I am paying attention too and trying to figure out is: It appears to me that same groups fight in Swat and then they move to Derra or Waziristan and the other areas. There is never a fight in all those areas simultaneously.

Appears to me that they have assignments to go to Swat one week, Waziristan the other and Derra the next week.

I see a pattern emerging but I will really have to monitor it for couple more weeks to get to some conclusion.

What asadi and Pavo are posting here is the conventional view of the war. Which picks up from the SU propaganda machine.

Tahmed has US centric view. The reality is some where in the middle. I had posted about the SU participation in that war some time ago if I can find it now I will post it again.

As Dada said the SU and Germany had a pact which really was a betrayal of the socialist ideology and of course was the result of the Nationalism on the Russian part than the Socialist ideals that were used to sell that deal. In fact, that deal screwed up many progressives around the world and Indian National congress and the CPI made serious error when they accepted the soviet line for that truce.

Any ways, Though the SU put its people as fodder in that war, things did not change until the USA began its arms shipments to the Russians and eventually those shipments turned the tide in the SU favor. Before that it was a hopeless war for the SU. Now let us not undermine the scarifies that the Russians made during the war but the reality is that Stalin fked up big time and caused so much of human misery when he failed to see Germany's real ambitions and signed a deal for his shortsighted nationalistic ends.
There is no denying that the Russians and others made scarifies but some of them were the results of the foolish political leadership of Stalin and the CPSU.

#416 Posted by tahmed32

true - ... I rest my case.

Yes I think that's a good idea. The conquests, colonization, neo-colonization, and now the globalization is all nothing but "Manifest Destiny".

pavocavalry: True that the eastern front was a vast front. But surely a man of your knowledge cannot be unaware of the rest of the war (in the Atlantic, in North Africa, in western europe after D-Day, not to mention the massive aerial bombardment of german industry).

Also, I do not expect a man of your astute judgement to make such an absurd statement as to claim that the Japanese were going to stop at kohima. Also, I do not expect a military expert like you to think that the Chinese had any presence in the Pacific at all. Unless you tell me that the Battle of Midway was won by communist frogmen while the US got all the credit. Or that the Battle of Leyte Bay was fought by Philipino communist guerillas...

Amin sahib,

Re: 429

Germany cud not have been defeated without all the allies USA, USSR and UK fighting together. No question about that. And if USA chooses to ignore USSR's role, I am sure in the Soviet days, their historians would have glossed over the role of the Western powers.

And as Tahmed sahib rightly points out, Japan was almost single handedly beaten by USA with USSR actually not violating its treaties with Japan till Germany was beaten.

Regards

Re: # 412 The issue is not as simple as this . American money and industry supplied the allies but the 90 % fighting against Nazi Germany was done by the Red Army.More than 300 German formations were committed against Red Army.

In case of Japan it was never the Japanese plan to invade India apart from some local incursions at Kohima which was not part of larger Japanese plan.

Even in Pacific the largest portion of Japanese Army were committed against Chinese Nationalist and Communists , some 80 Japanese division.The main military aim of the Jap attack on Burma was denying the British the air bases to attack Singapore.

Re: # 419 The topping of the cake has come now in the shape of the news that Darra Adam Khel insurgency is manned by the six jihadi outfits that his department and the agencies once used in India, and the six include some who are still “protected� by the intelligence agencies as an “option� against India. http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2008/01/30/story_30-1-20 08_pg3_1


I see you got here earlier.

Interestingly, there is another interpretation here - that is Dramabazi.....to see how much Musharuff can winkle out of the west. Worked before and should workout even now.

Re: # 425 talking of facts - here is an article on a variation of the wolf story

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2008/01/30/story_30-1-200 8_pg3_1

Majumadar bhayya, Mian Masadi Nawabzadeh has all the facts, figures and data at his finger tips. Its a question of when he wants to marshal them. In this case he has a blind-spot.

sattar: yes indeed.

majumdar #423 Please dont confuse masadi with facts. :-)

Yes, where would we be without harimau's acerbic wit and intelligence, especially when Chowk is in such dearth of both?!

Masadi sahib,

Re: USSR's great sacrifices in WW-II

I guess it may come as a shock to you that the gr8 USSR was almost an ally of Germany b4 WW-II. They even signed the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact which allowed USSR and Germnay to partition Poland after its conquests. And then USSR turned a blind eye to German conquest of East Europe. It was only when Germany attacked USSR that it suddenly became the "liberator" And the huge casualties of USSR were in part becuase Stalin's purges had almost completely destroyed the Red Army.

And if USA "colonised" a few countries so did USSR, Afghanistan, the whole of Central Asia and much of Eastern Europe and Central Europe. And it had as many client states in the Third World as USA had. And at least some of USA's clinet states- Taiwan, South Korea, Chile to name a few prospered while the whole of Soviet satellite states in the Third World were f***ed up beyond repair.

Regards

LOL, anil ji, please don't let Harimau's words upset you much. We can simply enjoy his acerbic wit and relish the sharp-tongued artistry he employs to put the rest of us down. Besides, (when he is not saying good things about my friend masanmuthu and advising us to spend time with our respective goats) the man is very intelligent too. :)

Ref anil #304

Don't go out alone. If you get into an accident and get taken to a hospital, the doctors are likely to start harvesting your organs!

Ref vengatramanan #310

[Nonsense, the very idea of meritocracy is a sham. How many of the Einsteins and Rockfellers came out of the so called elite academies.]

Einstein obtained his doctorate at the University of Zurich. Unlike Periyar University or Perarignar Anna University, universities in the rest of the world actually evaluate intellectual contributions before awarding a degree at the doctoral level.

Rockefeller was a businessman and had no need for a college education though he did attend Spencerian College in Cleveland, Ohio, USA for a while.

Prof S. Chandrasekhar studies at Presidency College, Madras when admission was on the basis of merit. He went on to earn a PhD at Cambridge University and later on the Nobel Prize in Physics. With the elimination of merit for admission to colleges under the leadership of Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion, Presidency College is now known as the place for rowdies to congregate. No useful thing has ever come out of Presidency College. Unfortunately for you and your Masanamuthu-type friends, the Nobel Committee awards the prize based on merit, not absence of it.

Since you claim merit is a sham, why hold examinations at the end of college studies? After all, those exams do rank students according to marks earned. Why not just hand out degree certificates for attending college? Heck, why make the Masanamuthus attend college? Give them a degree along with their SC/ST/MBC/OBC/BC caste certificate so that they could productively spend their young adulthood in the delightful company of farm animals.

Tamil Nadu, the land of Masanamuthus, has 250+ engineering colleges. NASSCOM, the associatio of software companies in India, estimates that only one graduate out of four is employable. That says something about using merit as a criterion for employment purposes.

Why do you think Infosys, TCS, Wipro, IBM, Microsoft, etc., hold aptitude tests for potential recruits and select only those who meet their criteria? Do you think they are filtering out those with "sham" merit?

Your own statements are proof of your mental retardation. Stay home and spend time with your goat.

what was the pakistani analyst umair raja saying about bleeding india?

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2008/01/30/story_30-1-20 08_pg3_1

The topping of the cake has come now in the shape of the news that Darra Adam Khel insurgency is manned by the six jihadi outfits that his department and the agencies once used in India, and the six include some who are still “protected� by the intelligence agencies as an “option� against India. Mr Shah should be careful. It is better for him to play his cards close to his chest till the time is right for a “show�. He can come to grief when his statements are investigated after Pakistan’s return to normal rule. *

boom...

US missile' kills 12 in Waziristan

Shamim Shahid
PESHAWAR - Twelve suspected militants are said to have been killed when a missile hit a house in village Khushhali Toorikheli near Mir Ali in North Waziristan Agency in early hours of Tuesday. The killed persons included some foreigners, reported to be affiliated with Al-Qaeda or its associated groups.
A high-intensity missile hit the house of Abdul Sattar Khan in early hours of Tuesday. The missile caused destruction to several portions of the house and resultantly killed 12 persons.
So far no official statement was made regarding the missile attack on the house of Abdul Sattar Khan, believed to be a leading transporter of the country.
However, there is conflicting reports regarding the casualties. Certain circles state that deaths are close to 12. The victims included local tribesmen and four foreigners. Exact identity of the killed was yet to be determined. There are reports that some high-profile militants were also killed in the incident.
Soon after the missile attack, the local militants, mostly linked to Maulvi Abdul Khaliq and Sadiq Noor groups, cordoned off the area. The militants didn’t allow common people to visit the spot, which let many people to suspect or believe that certain high-profile militants were killed in the attack.
It is important to mention that Khushhali Toorikhel and its surrounding areas are considered strongholds of alleged militants since long. A number of militant groups operate in the area. A large number of foreigners are also said to be residing there with the local militants.
The missile attack was considered to be the third one in the recent past in Mir Ali region. Earlier, in mid-November, 2005, a missile hit a house where a known Al-Qaeda fugitive from Egypt Hamza Rabia had taken shelter. Second missile chased Hamza Rabia on December 3, 2006.

tahmed (#412),

Correct about desi babus, but that’s only half the truth. These desi babus are somewhat similar to the other babus … who fail to see the tragedy in bombing hundreds of thousands of civilians … women, children, elderly, men … doctors, postmen, gardeners … in order to get Japan to surrender. Could Japan be forced to surrender without US bombing the two cities? I reckon the answer is probably yes …

There are babus … and then there are babus; and both seem equally oblivious to the central dilemma here.

zeemax #415 true - and the painting is circa 1872. I rest my case. :-)

#413 Posted by tahmed32,

Definition of 'Manifest Destiny' courtesy the painting on Wiki:

This painting (circa 1872) by John Gast called American Progress, is an allegorical representation of Manifest Destiny. Here Columbia, intended as a personification of the United States, leads civilization westward with American settlers, stringing telegraph wire as she travels; she holds a schoolbook. The different economic activities of the pioneers are highlighted and, especially, the changing forms of transportation. The Indians and wild animals flee.

396
Almost universally, the inventor does not own the patent. It's the institution or the company that the inventor works for that owns the patent, whereas the inventor is the holder of the patent. Huge difference, if the patent is worth any money.

#411 zeemax: "mindset" is a very loose term that can be used to mean anything. Thus - indians rant about the "islamic mindset" to take over the world. Pakistanis used to rant about the "akhund bharat" mindset.

If we are to have views that are not totally absurd, we cant have the luxury of making up our own world using subjectively defined concepts like "mindset".

fuzair: arguing whether it was the Soviets or the US that saved the world in WWII from Germany is like arguing whether the left hand or the right hand made the clap sound.

also, more relevant to the subcontinent - the US almost singlehandedly defeated Japan in the Pacific. The other allies were no match for the japanese war machine, and the soviets did not even bother to declare war against the Japanese until the very end to get some easy pickings in the form of territory. If the US had not stepped in, all these desi intellectuals would be working on some field as illiterate laborers as enslaved people today. And tens of millions of indian civilians would have been brutally killed by the japanese - as they did in China. But you wont hear a peep out of desi babus except to shed crocodile tears over Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

#408 Posted by tahmed32,

It was never a specific policy, but a mindset, though it was reflected in the Monroe Doctrine.

Now, it is extended to the entire world.

Major Sahib,

The fact that 90% of WWII Allied casualties may have been suffered by the SU is irrelevant. What is more relevant is that, out of a total of 5.318 million German military deaths, 3.973 million were against the Soviets--about 75%. Yes, the SU 'saved' us all from Hitler, probably.

Of course, what is also interesting is that 215,000 Soviets died fighting for the Germans against their 'own' country and the millon SU POWs who changed sides and fought for the Germans against the Soviets. That should tell you something about how much the SU was hated by its own people.

You are also forgetting other such charming SU institutions as the penal battalions, where anywhere between 500,000 to a million political prisoners and normal criminals were simply transferred from prison to the frontline. They were used in massed human wave attacks so that bodies alone would wear down the German defenses and then the regular Soviet troops could take the position. You are also forgetting about the special NKVD troops sent in behind the penal (and regular) battalions whose job it was to shoot any Soviet soldier who hesitated or even looked back.

The Germans also used some of these tactics but this was the norm in the Red Army and clearly exceptions in the Wehrmacht--who incidentally, suffered 30% battle deaths and still managed to function as a cohesive fighting unit until the very end.

pavocavalry #405 masadi's post is correct - but not regarding the question which I had raised to you and to which he tries to respond in his usual charming manner.

My question was to you. Please see my post #344 and I look forward to your response. Thanks.

zeemax: on "manifest destiny" - that was a specific goal of extending the US all the way to the Pacific. That was achieved back in 1852.

If anyone thinks the US is looking for territorial expansion today, then he is - to put it gently - not in touch with reality. As I wrote before - the US and other leading nations of the world (of which the latest entrant is China, with India close behind) - are today focussed on the "true frontiers" of today (expansion of science, technology). When people talk of "colonization" today, they talk of the moon or mars.

This is what Intellectual Giant Masadi is clueless about.

dost-mittar #: ...i dont think i talked about anyone breaking up......i am simply pointing to the historical mean of south asia......

how long has south asia been, roughly, one country.....200 out of 5000 years?.....perhaps a little more.....during this time, it had its powers and giants and what not.....it even had int'l superpowers, which were amongst the wealthiest nations in the world....it had cultural and educational centers of the world....i.e. it had powers which were a far more powerful place in the world than what india, pakistan and bangladesh enjoy....

yet again and again, it shifted to its historical mean.....ashoka ruled the largest territorial mass ever of any south asian ruler - present or past.......if someone would have seen his empire, they would have repeated what you are saying......mughals were a world power.....aurangzeb ruled a giant empire.......

if the british had not arrived, after the fall of aurangzed, south asia would have, once again, broken up into its historical norm - punjabis, marathas, hyderabad, mysore, kashmir, afghanistan, sind, bengal etc.....some of these would have conquered the other, and things would have moved back and forth.......

the british arrived, coincidentally, and bought it together.......yet it broke up again into three or four states.......

this should tell you something.....the natural tendency of south asia is centrifugal, not centripetal....i.e. the tendency is to break away from the center......

it is only a conquering force (one state conquering others) or an outside invader, or a common enemy that keeps it together, until it moves apart again.....

this separation need not be violent.....it could be peaceful also.....

just take a look at how often europe has broken up and gotten together and broken up.......in the past ten years, it has done both simultaneously.......western europe was coming together, economically, under the european union, while eastern, central and southern europe was breaking up......ditto with ussr......

#403 Posted by masadi,

Masadi Saheb,

tahmed saheb is a great believer in 'Manifest Destiny'. But so is hamidm2, and almost all Indians here ... it's a point of view, which has done great harm to the world.

Re: # 403 90 % of allied casualties were suffered by the Red Army.Russia saved Europe in 1812 from Napoleon , from Imperial Germany in First World War....although in this case Russia suffered the most and in Second World War.

Masadi is more than correct.

Re: # 380 Mohtaram , i entirely agree , but as you may have seen i said the way the pakistani leadership is , they cannot survive without US help.In order to act differently the quality of leadership has to be different.That type i dont see. Not in Punjab or Sindh the two so called leading provinces.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Re: # 388
When I wrote narrow pockets, it meant that micro levels were faulty.

As for minorities, yes I have always talked of pluralism and instruementalism. Read my essay on Civil Society.

#400 Posted by dost_mittar on January 29, 2008 12:50:18 am


I admire your spirit of looking for the "positive" in every situation


That's called clutching at straws...

post 9/11, capt clueless predicted that Pakiland would keep growing powerful and could afford to bleed India...and that kashmir would become pakistan in 5-10 years because pakiland had uncle sam's wind in her sails...

bulleya#337:

I admire your spirit of looking for the "positive" in every situation, the positive in this case being the break-up of India. Nobody can say what will happen in a century or two but as of now, there are no signs of India breaking up anytime soon.

I do not think that the two Punjabs can reunite politically, although there is no reason why they cannot do so in a cultural way. Here, you are forgetting that the divison and ethnic cleansings in Punjab took place because of the religious divide; unless, of course, you believe that religions too are not eternal and Muslims will no longer be Muslims or Hindus and Sikhs no longer so. On the other hand, the way Bihari and Bengali Muslims are streaming into Punjab and new masjids coming up there all the time, maybe East Punjab too could turn into a Muslim majority in a century or two.

Your observation about a united India under non-hindus is interesting but not correct. You are forgetting Ashoka's father and grandfather and the later Gupta dynasty which is considered by A.L. Basham and other historians as the glorious period of Indian history. Moreover, at the time of Ashoka, Bodhis were just considered a sect and not a religion; indeed, Budh never denounced the faith of his birth (I am not sure if people called themselves Hindus back then!) and neither did Hindus threw out Buddhists from their fold (unlike Muslims did Ahmadis) and, in fact, regard Buddha as the last incarnation of their Lord Vishnu.

You are also not quite right about the "calculator gene" of south indians. They trace that gene to Aryabhatta who is more likely to be your ancestor than that of Naryanamurti.

SWAT, Jan 28: Security forces on Monday regained control of the Durshkhela fort in Matta’s Bagh Dheri area which had fallen to militants loyal to cleric Maulana Fazlullah three months ago.

The militants occupied the fort after over 100 besieged troops of the Frontier Constabulary (FC) had surrendered. The FC men were later released in groups.
/////////////

It took 3 months for teh pak troops to get rid of the taliban. Do a strategic analysis on that. Romair where are you , when we need you so much, your military thinking.

Strategic depth,

There is no way that the pak jihadis can operate into afghanistan from pak bases. SO the poor pakistanis are left few options.

Call in the B52s and the jihadis will move to Islamabad. Remember that it was B52s that drove them from afghanisatan to the pak borders. This is what the US is worried about.

Move the jihadis from the afghan border to the indian border. That is more likely, because in essence jihadis have to be delivered to the heavens.

Have some kind of peace deal with the jihadis. This is what pakistan is trying.

It is becoming increasingly clear that india will have to solve the pak problem. There is a forthcoming indian military exercise with more than a 100 foreign countries invited to witness, a demonstration of indias quick deployment capability.

That si primarily to iraquise pakistan.

Re: # 396
This is typical Muslim logic. Had Lebanon Govt. declared war? Hezbullah was attacking Israel from civilian areas. If you can fire a rocket from milk factory, why should Israel spare it?

ahmedmadani,

Somebody in war law can answer

If milk factories can be bombed in S. Lebanon by Israel in the last summer war, and considered legitimate targets, every target is legitimate.

tahmed saheb,

By "nation divided against itself", Viqarm saheb is only talking about polarization, which you will admit is at its peak since creation of Pak.

Re: # 392 TAhmed
I shall dare to do anything that I feel I have to do to put people in their place. You can do whatever you wish to do about it.

Re: # 346

I don't differentiate between them. They both are trollers. There's not much difference but a matter of semantics.

All I can say about patents, for the time is, a good idea has been taken to disgusting extremes.

What would have happened if Albert Sabin had gone in for a patent?

#391 viqarm: spare me your hollow accusations and insults. And spare me this high and mighty "people like me came to Pakistan to uplift others". And dont pull try to pose as a victim with your references to being pushed to the sea when i never said anything like this.

And dont dare go around berating the brave people of Pakistan as you were doing below - the poorest among whom have a dignity and honesty that make them better men than you.

Re: # 387 TAhamed,

Please don't waste my time. I won't ask you to stop lying; I understand that you can't help it.

I do not disrespect all non-mohajirs, only racist cowards like you and HP. I do not have any wish, nor do I appreciate being referred to as "mohajir". I am an urdu-speaking Sindhi and Pakistani; and me and my people are here to stay, and to get justice for a mere 250,000 that your ilk so shamelessly abandoned in 1971.

We shall NEVER stop struggling for justice for them, and for any ordinary Pakistani regardless of where he/she is.

With the disgusting customs, especially in the treatment of women, that the native cultures of Pakistan have, it is not OK to ask us to become Sindhis or Punjabis or whatever else. What for? So we can also honor kill women, sanctify gang-rape, frame non-muslims for blasphemy, and have private jails for bonded labor?

Please don't expect any such assimilation anytime soon.

People like me came to Pak to uplift others; not to degrade ourselves.

If you don't like it, come and push us into the sea like many of you have been itching to do for decades. For me death is infinitely more preferable than to have the value set which has been eating away at the roots of Pakistan for the last 60 years.

#389 majumdar: The thing is that it is an insult to the sacrifices made by hundreds of martyred Pakistanis, not to mention the thousands more who have faced police beatings, arrests, job losses, in this struggle for freedom for someone to get up and start berating Pakistanis as cowards.

Tahmed sahib,

(Pakistanis who have stood up against this evil dictatorship.)

Vikram sahib is not pro-Mush. See his interacts with Zee sahib on Chowk Connect.

Vikram sahib,

(balkanization might suit more. Also it will open up many alternate transit routes to Central Asia and Iran for India).

A balkanised Pak will not be a peaceful neighbourhood of four nations- Punjab, Sind, NWFP and B'stan- it is more likely to be a vicious ethnic battleground much like A'stan. So you can forget about a balkanised Pak being "alternate transit routes to Central Asia and Iran for India". It is likely to be every one's nightmare!!!

Regards

Re: # 384
I do not want to sound disrespectful Gul Sahib; but you seem to be looking at the macro-picture.

To me, if there is no redress at the micro level (ala a poor man affording bread and shlter for his family)- and soon - we are staring at an irreversible disaster.

Nations become stronger with inner cohesion. How the poor and the minorities are treated in Pak is of paramount importance. We can surive, even if we are poor and the macro indicators are not that great but the people are happier with each other.

I am sorry to have to say this, but poverty with self-respect is far more preferable to me than being a not-so-poor whore of USA (with no self-respect).

viqarm #348

I referred to you as scum because you talk about Pakistan as being a "nation divided against itself" when you have been among the foremost on chowk in promoting such divisions by berating non-mohajirs!!

I referred to you as scum because while talking of Pakistanis as being cowardly, you have been foremost in berating the brave Pakistanis who have stood up against this evil dictatorship.

Of course you have nothing to say. I dont point out that someone is a scum without reason. And you can only go bleating to masadi for help.

Re: # 383 Majumdar Sahib,
Thanks for the honorary title, though I somehow like my own name :-).

Sure things can change. It will be a first in the history of Pakistan, though. Still, if it is to survive, there has to be a beginning somewhere.

Personally I fear that the playground for the great game of the 18th and nineteenth centuries has expanded to, now, fully engulf Pakistan.

Also the Brits and Russia are no longer the only players. America, Europe at large, China, India, even Israel and Iran have a stake.

Each major player must be asking: Does balkanization suit me more than the integrity of Pakistan?

I may be simple minded but, to a mority of stakeholders, balkanization might suit more. It will definitely make the case for denuclearization much stronger. Also it will open up many alternate transit routes to Central Asia and Iran for India and vice versa.

China might be the odd party holding out for the integrity of Pakistan.

The people of Pakistan will be the losers big time. That is, unless they wake up!

Ijaz sahib,

(The present energy crises are based on IMF/ World Bank recipies ardently implemented by their bankers imposed as ministers etc. )

Pakistan shud invest in more coal and hydel, gas and liquid fuels are not good options at all given the price. Dunno about power situation in Pak, but in India the problems lies in the T&D situation- too much theft and unremunerative tariffs make discoms bankrupt. If they were viable pvt sector and public sector both wud be more than happy to invest in generation.

Regards

I believe pakistan will ride the crises. A day will come when we will have constitutionalism.
As for human development, the situation is not pathetic. Its quite ok but there is still room for improvement.
Though an economist could evaluate better, despite the crisis, we have had some remarkable but narrow windows of sustainable growth. The present energy crises are based on IMF/ World Bank recipies ardently implemented by their bankers imposed as ministers etc.

Vikramaditya sahib,

(In view of what you have written what exactly makes you optimistic?)

Things can change, no?

Regards

Re: # 381 Gul Sahib,
I am confused. In view of what you have written what exactly makes you optimistic?

Small civil society; dominance by intellignece agencies; lack of cosntitutionalism and rule of law; no budge for human and social development; Is this the recipe for success?

I am an optimist and live for Pakistan.
Though many think that Pakistan must meet the fate similar to Cicero the peot,I feel otherwise.
Pakistan came to existance when the Cold War just began. It had no industrial infrastructure or defence capability. Early planners therefore concentrated on defence at the cost of entangling in super power rivalry and benefit of development. The paradigm has not changed despite a China Policy.

Pakistan has a very small segment of Civil Society. State dominated by the Intelligence Agencie4s dominates most of the space. Institution building can only begin if there is an earnest recourse to constitutionalism. Present jauggartism means doom.

Re: # 373
Sorry Major Sahib. I rather think US help is kiss of death. If Pakistan is to survive, it should learn to make do on its own. Many self-respecting nations do it. Why can't Pakistan.

Amin sahib,

Meanwhile what is the real position on Kohat?

Regards

interesting discussion .keep it up sir.

Ijaz sahib,

Re: 375

Can't think of anything else. But I am really intrigued. If you cant share it in the open you can PM it to me.

Regards

Amin sahib,

(Without US help there would be no Pakistan.)

I dont quite agree here. With nukes in place, Pakistan is absolutely safe from its only EXTERNAL enemy, India. The only immediate threat are non-state actors ie the Pakistani Talibs (PTs) but I dont see them strong enuff to seriously threaten the Pak state.

Yes, there is a real long danger if Pakistan continues to neglect nation-building and development of institutions and failing to address the aspirations of its people.'

Regards

Re: # 374
No majumdar. This is impossible and even a rougue country would not do it. Think more?

Ijaz,

Thanks. I thot all of that post was your views.

(As for active nuclear deterrence, I do not have to write everything. Think? )

I presume you are suggesting smuggling nukes to the Talibs, right?

Ahmedmadani sahib,

(Pak us is like man and his wife )

Yes, US is the man, Pak is his wife. And unfortunately they are always in the missionary position.

(Indian army must be having night mares)

Paks wud lick Injuns even without nukes, sir. As we know one Momin = ten bhindis. It is a matter of time b4 Injun Army quits Kashmir, Arjun mian will give you the timetable.

Regards

Re: # 366 pakistan cannot survive without USA at least in the present set up.

USA is just like English East India Company.Without US help there would be no Pakistan.Balkanisation is a reality , no conspiracy theory.Bangladesh was a liability for pakistan but without sindh balochistan and the pashtun areas pakistan to india will be what bhutan is to india.these are hard facts.

Re: # 370
Are high dams like Mangla or Tarbela allowed to be attacked by nukes in Modern Warfare? Can they break them or it will be wastefull blast. Sui Gas fileds can be atomic targets ?
Somebody in war law can answer

Re: # 368 i wish that we can discuss this by e mail. you know that i respect you personally and intellectually.

Re: # 365
Generally india/ PK is always short affair. Bungla desh was even did not go too long. Now it will can be even shorter as use of nuclear attack on india can be over in 15 minutes.
Can now american army going to give more airgun ships/ great mobility will breakk back of antipakistani people?

Re: # 366 Nukes are for India, not for A.stan or America or Pakistani Talibs.They are meant to kill indinas not americans , america and china are best friends. Pak us is like man and his wife , they quarrel but always live together as both sides can atlest blame each other for failures.
Rockets are already designed to destroy indian cities , as they are city bursters and thermonuclear bombs with eash capacity in Mega Tons , indian bombs are in kilo tons. And Pakistan is in envyable position as both China and usa depend on pakistan and not other way.
With coming age of Joint Fighter -JF-17 Pk air superiority is now well established and now fleets of F-16 coming usa. nO AIR SUPERIORITY IS WITH paf AS WAS HISTORICALLY.Also PK missiles are on good trains and they run on tracks atlest 12 hours so mobile. Indian army must be having night mares

As for active nuclear deterrence, I do not have to write everything. Think?

Re: # 366
Most of my post is analysis.
The last line in parenthess is my view.
The army still feels it can deliver. They do not percieve the threat the way you or most of us do. Nonetheless, their peace overtures in North Waziristan do indicate that there is some thought going on.

Ijaz sahib,

(Pakistan has an active nuclear deterrence and any strike would be foolhardy. )

A deterrence against whom? Paki missiles can hit only India, A'stan or Iran and I dont see why Pakis wud want to retaliate against either for an American invasion and even if that is their response I dont see the Yanks losing sleep over a few million Injuns, Afghans and Iranians getting fried.

(The most important precursor to these chain of events is to disgrace the Army.)

The Army has done enuff to disgrace itself, it does not require American intervention.

Regards

as far as i can assess the pakistani generals it will be an easy affair to denuclearise pakistan.

the main threat to USA and its Atlantic allies is from the non state actors.The stamina or the lack of it of Pakistan Army was well demonstrated in 1971 and in Kargil and now in Waziristan.

I met at least three general officers who agreed with major part of the assertions made in the article.

Any plan to denuclearise pakistan will have surprise as the main element.

if anyone reads General Shazli's book he would understand how Soviet help was crucial in making the egyptians confront israel.although still militarily 1973 war was an Israeli victory.

Vietnam without Soviet help could not have defeated USA.The list is long but i am quite busy with other serious matters.

HP

My friend we will discuss things sometimes.Thanks for all your interacts.They are definitely thought provoking.

5 Minutes over Islamabad.
Threat projected + Threat Perceived = Cognitive Construct
Reaction to this Cognitive Construct is directly proportional to the degree of control in decision making.

Threat Projected.
Since the late 80s, Think Tanks dominated by USA began to raise the bogey of an Islamic Bomb. Pakistan was placed under sanctions but even in those days, the inflation was lower and standard of living better. The CPI was far better than today. Pakistan was called a failed state, likely to be declared as abetting terrorism. US think Tanks coined statements like Ugly Stability. As Pakistan got closer to improve its delivery systems, there were deliberate leaks like an Israeli Threat most likely in concert with India. A scare was created about the two missing Soviet Brief Cases and that Pakistan Nuclear material may fall into the hands of hard-line Islamists, later graduated to Taliban &Al Qaida. At the same time stories of proliferation, some true and most unsubstantiated continued to make rounds in the official dossiers. This clutter of propaganda was reinforced by formal studies and war games in which Pakistan was projected as a grey country mainly because of nuclear/terrorism issues and the swinging emotions of the anti American public. During this entire chatter, US State Department maintained good relations with Pakistan through its defence diplomacy (CENTCOM). Pakistan was lumped with the Centcom while India remained within the sphere of Pacific Command. Then came 9/11.

Threat Perceived
For a long time, Pakistani policy makers remained oblivious to these threats as if they fell on deaf years. The Doctrines of 'Strategic Depth', 'Strategic Defiance' and 'Nexuses of Three Asia' made the Pakistan defence establishment feel very important and secure. These doctrines were reinforced with the misplaced concept of Ummah and its ability to unify. However, there remained a school that saw these threats in tangible terms and advocated moderation of Taliban, a higher political ante rather than militancy in Kashmir. The dominating hawks were un deterred by these threats, evident in the manner that Kargil Operations were launched. They lived in their own bubbled paradigm and then took control of the country. The same elements that fought in Afghanistan and Kashmir were given a free hand inside Pakistan who took on people of rival sects and religions.

9/11 brought a realisation that things had gone too far. The genie was out of the bottle. The U Turn that was taken lacked any transition policy to reign in these elements. In many a cases, their handlers were equally indoctrinated and policy shift became difficult. As a first reaction, many churches were attacked and people massacred. However, the message fell on deaf years in USA, who saw an opportunity to occupy Afghanistan. India was used to mobilise Pakistan Army on the Eastern Front and the fronts effectively reversed. Much of the threat was now becoming real.

The threat now perceived revolves around decapitating Pakistan and redrawing of Borders. Pakistani Security establishment is convinced that Intelligence agencies of USA, Afghanistan, India and perhaps Iran through the Northern Alliance are all involved in the tribal areas. They are suspicious of cooperation with USA. This is what I term as GREY created by agencies.

As to 5 Minutes over Islamabad? It is no Baghdad. Pakistan has an active nuclear deterrence and any strike would be foolhardy. The Americans know it. The only plausible scenario is if these systems are likely to fall into the hands of militants and the government of Pakistan agrees to such an intervention. That is why there is so much international chatter on this scenario meant to un nerve the military establishment. The most important precursor to these chain of events is to disgrace the Army.

"Whether there is a genuine effort to offset this perception is any one’s guess".

Cheerios

Re: # 359
"viqarm: and i know you are there (like you were after i wrote #351 and #353 and you scurried off). respond in the next 30 seconds and tell me if i am wrong in anything i wrote there since i dont have unlimited time for you".

Gosh! Am I glad you don't have unlimited time for me. Feel free in future, as well, not to have any time for me at all.

Much appreciated.

wow...prophet tahmed(peace be unto his self-righteous left butt cheek) has PO'ed both indians and pakis at the same time with the stench of his self-righteousness. now even salim could do both at the same time.

"#356 viqarm: this is empty talk that does not respond to what I wrote in #351 and #353".

Oh, I am sorry. Did you actually say something in 351 and 353?

"empty words like calling me a coward and dragging in my ancestors says nothing me and plenty about you and the filthy culture you were raised in".

Like I told you before, you can call it (and me) "filthy", "ethnic", "scum" (with or without "conscious")or whatever other names you like. I couldn't care less, and I have nothing further to say to you.

Hey Masadi, where the f**k are you? This idiot needs you to indulge in his daily puja of wasting time and bandwidth, like he always does, with you. Come and attend to him please!!!

viqarm: and i know you are there (like you were after i wrote #351 and #353 and you scurried off). respond in the next 30 seconds and tell me if i am wrong in anything i wrote there since i dont have unlimited time for you.

or else, if your afraid to write something while i am online to review and comment on it, take your time to think before replying. so you dont prove yourself to be a more khokhla specimen of the mqm ethnic chauvinist than you have already proved yourself to be, and i will be back later to analyse what you have written for any signs of intelligence.

#354 more irrelevant hollow talk. like musharraf, the more you talk, the more obvious it becomes what a hollow man with a big mouth you are.

#356 viqarm: this is empty talk that does not respond to what I wrote in #351 and #353.

empty words like calling me a coward and dragging in my ancestors says nothing me and plenty about you and the filthy culture you were raised in.

Re: # 353 TAhmed
I have not twisted anything, just exposed your cowardice. Moreover, the "conscious" attribute is redundant anyway; it does not apply to your seven generations (above or below). So quit whining already ... Sheesh!

Re: # 332
Show me anybody, in the US, who is half as intelligent as Bin Laden;)
Ans: Being a crazy dog does not mean intelligent. USA does not want to capture Bin Laden.

Re: # 351 TAhmed:

Are you finished with the maatam for 1947 (when you poor saintly lots had to kill and drive out hindus and sikhs from West Punjab because the "UP walas" made you do it), and of 1971 when the ethnic scum biharis made you rape and massacare bengalis before bravely surrendering en mass, that you are now starting the "nauha" for May 12/2007?

You know, even among cowards there are two kinds. There is the plain ordinary vanilla variety who would rather not fight. Then there are the "beghairat Punjabi" cowards found in abundance between rivers Indus and Sutlej. Their niche is sucking the blood, and stealing the wealth, of others. Their history since Jaipal and Anandpal from the time of Subuktegin and his son Mahmood of Ghazni, is one of initiating wars and then running away in humiliation and defeat, always blaming the woes and miseries of their stupidities on others.

Don't despair, another sound thrashing at the hands of Mehsuds and Wazirs is coming...

You are clueless about my views on Musharraf, bhattay wala, and the MQM. But to the collaborating cowardly descendants of the above illustrious ancestors of yours, I have nothing to say. I thought I had made that clear to you the last time we had the misfortune of talking.

So get lost and stay the f**k out.

viqarm: dont try to hide behind lies now. I called hyou an "ethnic conscious scum". You twisted that to "ethnic scum". Thus proving yourself to be a liar as well as as an ethnic conscious pea-brained (as proved in #351) scum.

This is what another "ethnic scum" had to say (last paragraph):

http://tinyurl.com/yvnhkn

Translation:

"Then he remarked with derision: After fighting with the Pak fauj I ask myself that if these guys cannot fight us, how are they going to fight the army of an enemy country?".

vaqarm #350 you and your ethnic chauvinist types have already lost.

- mqm has lost. mqm showed its petty ethnic allegiances by killing peaceful demonstrators on on may 12 2007 - and so is today sitting on the sidelines, an irrelevant bunch of hoodlums harboring murderers of may 12. its attempts at becoming relevant to pakistani politics shattered by the narrow-minded bigotry of its party leaders.

- musharraf has lost. his attempt at continuing as president while abusing his powers as military chief taken away from him by the military itself.

the fact that you still talk about "we shall see who lost" indicates what a pea-brain you are.

Re: # 349 TAhmed
You should be careful. Whatever the size of my brain, it is an order of magnitude larger than yours. As for "ethnic" and "scum", you and your ancestry is far more deserving of those epithets.

And as for losing, both of us are here (for the time being). na ghoRa dur na maedaan ... we shall see who loses.

viqarm: pea-brain ethnic conscious scum like you will lose no matter what. Pakistanis will win, no matter what.

Re: # 335 Amin Sahib,
We had in the past, we have now in the present, and we shall have in the future the leadership that we deserve.

Whether these leaders will lead the people to humiliation and suffering, as you seem to fear/wish/predict, depends upon how they conduct themselves in the coming days. If their past is also their future, then disaster isn't just a foregone conclusion; it is the law of nature, the inevitable and deserved fate of such ignominy and bankruptcy of character.

In the final analysis, the fate of the Pakistanis is in the hands of the people themselves.

True, there have been nations, before and now, which have stood up and refused to accept what the powers that be wanted to dish out to them. But this is a nation divided against itself. For all the rhetorical eloquence of its wannabe, vengeful, leaders there is neither vision, nor ideals, nor character, nor pride. The most powerful amongst this nation are the most tyrannical; the most "martial" of its people the most cowardly. Its rich are niggardly, its poor devoid of sabr and dignity in fuqr, deluded by anything that glitters, and given to violence and petty criminality at the drop of a hat.

The impending balkanization will be a mere formalization of what exists in their hearts and souls already. Can they return from the edge of the precipice? The moment of truth creeps ever closer. Mercifully, the wait should soon be over ...

#343 Posted by Urstruly
"So the point is that that napak fouj does not act on the whims of one m/f general anymore. A corporate structure dictates its over all policy."

I was merely stating the options. How the Pak army deals with that is a different issue. But generally my assessment is: if the Chief of the Army Staff is inclined to accept a proposal, majority of the generals/corps commanders would go with him. That is how the corporate world works too.

Tahmed, Some good questions. I will too wait for the reply.

#326 theres a huge diff bet owning & holding patents
im curious abt ur opposition 2 patents - care 2 elaborate?

Re: # 342

Ladies and Gentlemen - Presenting for your viewing pleasure: Bulleya, the Bimbo... Ha ha...

pavocavalry: I read your "5 minutes over Islamabad" and found that you ignore some basic facts (e.g. Pakistani nuclear capacity is not as fragile as Saddam's that it can be taken out with one strike). And you make too many incorrect assertions.

you write: "Thanks to USSR help many South Asian countries as well as African countries fought and won wars of liberation !"
Name one such country! On the other hand, the central asian states, the baltic states, the east european states - having experienced USSR the way USSR lovers like you obviously never did - are testimony to the brutal and corrupt USSR regime that the US successfully fought and won against.

You write: "The Arabs were able to confront Israel only because of Soviet aid till the collaborator Sadaat sold his soul to the USA and Israel !"

FYI, the "collaborator" Saadat is the only Arab leader who actually beat the Israelis and saved arabs from the ridicule that was rightly heaped on them by the world after 1967 when their Big Man Nasser and the rest of the arab rulers were shown to be a paper tigers. And so, another generation of palestinians was doomed to live as refugees, thanks to the work of individuals like you who considered the only man among arabs in a long time to be a "collaborator"!!

Re: # 341 HP

"The easy tactics for the US is to get another general and work with him."

I do not think that fouj in pak is a one man show any more. Since 1990, I think, it has been restructuring itself on a corporate model. The impetus for this restructuring was the US economic embargo after Zia's death on the basis of Pressler Ammendment and subsequently the process was acclerated exponentially after the nuclear tests. That is when they fouj started investing in industry, trade and banking. In the new model the Corp Commanders act as the board of directors of any corporate entity. There is a president of the board who also happen to be the CEO. After the coup against Musharaf in Novemeber army has entered a new phase of its corporate structure - in which they have a civilain president of the country to deal with the politicians, while having no authority over fouj.

So the point is that that napak fouj does not act on the whims of one m/f general anymore. A corporate structure dictates its over all policy.

There is one way now that US may be able pressurize the whole corp commander corporate boardroom, and that is by freezing all the foreign assets of all Pakistani generals, impose restrictions on their flying out of the country and open up money laundering charges against the family members of generals living in West. That will be the first real combat challenge that Na Pak fouj will ever face in the post 1947 phase of its existence. Anything before that was just a fukking game for them.

anil #339: "Term bania also means, never to give on your ideas, and never to improve it from what others say."

....i am, actually, starting to enjoy my new found good looks status in south india....and am, thus, starting to lose interest in business interests....i knew there was some place in the world, where my looks would be appreciated.....

....is it better to be shahrukh khan or narayan murthy?......that is the million dollar question....

Urstruly,
"A surgical nuclear strike is launched on Kahuta and Islamabad !" AH AMIN

The whole thesis falls flat on its face when the author believes that the US could possibly launch a nuclear strike on Islamabad or Kahuta. The nuke assests are not in Islamabad and surgical nuke strike on a populated area would not only meet internal opposition within the US admin and politicians but would also be opposed by the many other countries including India, China and Russia. The US is unable to pull that hoax over Iran despite many threats.

The US was able to tame the Iraq army after ten years of bombing and a gut sapping blockade. The Pak army is better equipped and there is a strong likelihood that US will not be able to create sustainable sanctions against Pakistan.

The US will not attempt a conventional war in Pakistan. Their best hope is to work with the army.Since the Generals and the whole Pak army apparatus is tied with the US and the pentagon, the US will be successful in achieving its goals thru the Pak army but the process would be drawn out.

The easy tactics for the US is to get another general and work with him.

Re: # 335 Pavocavlary

Your thesis of "5 min over Islamabad" is plausible but not likely for the following reasons:

1. Nuclear assets are the one and only leverage that military Junta has against US and European aggression.

2. No matter how surgical the strike is, it can only destroy the production infrastruscture but not what has already been made. probably some of it but not all.

3. After invasion of Iraq the war paradigm has changed. For non superpower countries, now it is not the regular armies but the people and the so called "non-state actors" that defend the territory and country.

4. "5 minute over islamabad" will cause massive defection and mutiny in pak armed forces. The NATO troops are stretched thin in Afghanistan. They cannot or will not be able to handle the exponantial surge in the number of non state actors recruited from the Pakistani heartland.

5. The aggression on Pakistan will prompt regional actors like Iran, China, Russia, and India to re-evaluate their posture vis a vis US in Afghanistan. Whether one accepts it or not but an undeniable truth is that Pakistan has become the new buffer state between US aggression and all other regional actors.

6. An aggression on Pakistan will be the end of US political clout over Pakistan for good. Even now, the US endorsement of any Pakistani politician our fouji is a kiss of death for them. Imagine what will people do to the collaborators and their families after a strike.

So logically "a 5 min over islamabad" seems unlikely. But truth of the matter is that we are not dealing with people who have logic or common sense. We are dealing with American Christian religios nuts who belive that if they create murder and mayhem in this region Jesus Christ (pbuh) will one day emerge from heavens and come to congratulate them.

So even for collaborators, for the safety of their own behinds it would be prudent, that Pakistan must keep an option of a credible nuclear strike-back if attacked. This fact must be sold to the rest of the world in an undoubted clear cut manner. As a second tier of strategical option Pakistan should promise to deliver nukes to the non-state actors if attacked.

Re: # 336

Romair:

Term bania also means, never to give on your ideas, and never to improve it from what others say.

#335 Posted by pavocavalry
"5 Minutes over Islamabad"

Would you be willing to discuss, defend your thesis, if I raise issues and ask for related information that can support your thesis? Let us try and make it work!

dost-mittar #: "Looks like even when you are fighting an existentialist struggle, you refuse to give up your dreams of a greater Pakistan including all of Punjab and Kashmnir.;) "

.....in the big scheme of things, all of us will be dead one day......and in the big scheme of things, in my opinion, pakistan and india are temporary entities.....which do not match up to the historical balance of south asia......and will disappear...

so in a hundred years or so, south asia will be back to its independent cultural boundaries - south india, north india, punjab and afghanistan, with south and north india further divided along cultural lines.....

this is how it has been in 4800 out of its 5000 year history.....

in fact the only time south asia has been one united entity was when ruled by religions other than hinduism - bhuddists under ashoka, mulsims under aurangzed, christians under england......

so i don't know whether eastern kashmir and punjab will ever join pakistan, but they will join western kashmir and punjab one day, in one form or another.......

anil #: "You will be a very successful entreprenuer. This is the first principle of entreprenuership. You have it Romair, let Hamidm Sahib & Co. say whatever they want...."

...this is another area, i am afraid, in which pakistanis cannot compete with indians....specifically south indians......hence i am close to giving up my dream on this one......

south indians have a built-in calculator, i am convinced....i regularly sit down and discuss project opportunities, with them, nowdays......i give all my ideas and what not, based on my, "experience in the west".....

then some south indian guy gets up, in an unironed pale yellow shirt, crumpled pants and tennis shoes, speaking in broken hindi and english, and makes two or three points, which bring my complete proposal to zero.....

indians, specially south indians, are experts at calculating deals in their heads....they know exactly how much each deal, each employee and each item is worth......perhaps that is where the term baniya comes from....

something us pakistanis will never be able to master, i am afraid.....

5 Minutes over Islamabad



A.H Amin



There appears to be a strong evolving consensus in the USA as well as its NATO allies that Pakistan is the centre of gravity of the Islamists in the ongoing so called war on terror.This idea gained currency in various high US policy making circles as well as think tanks around 1987-89 and then assumed a solid shape in the decade 1990-2000.After 2001 it was adopted as a policy and concrete albeit top secret planning was started to deal with Pakistan which at the ulterior level was seen as part of the problem rather than a solution.



When the Spaniards landed in Mexico their main collaborators were indigenous Mexicans themselves ! In Pakistan thus the USA made use of indigenous collaborators ! Generals whose sons had a US passport ! Bankers who were US nationals but also dual Pakistani citizens ! Thus these leaders justified collaboration with the USA after 9/11 on the grounds that what they did was the only guarantee for the survival of Pakistan !



The Pakistani military junta in 2001 was isolated internationally so it was very easy for the USA to overawe it with one telephone call ! The typical career army officers life consists of aiming to get a good annual report from his boss ! Pakistan's military leadership grasped this opportunity to get a good pat from their geopolitical strategic boss the US president and with open hands provided airbases and all logistic support to the USA ! This was a short term measure so that Pakistani military junta's survival in power was ensured ! It had no connection with survival of Pakistan as a state ! Compare how Iran is surviving as a state despite defying the USA since 1979 ! Later on a fiction that USA threatened Pakistan with bombing it to the stone age was invented ! Thus irresolution was rationalized as supreme strategic brilliance ! Ironically some so called media men who are also running private businesses were in the forefront in praising this strategic timidity as strategic brilliance !



What happened in " Real Strategic Terms" was that with Pakistani military junta's active collaboration i.e logistic support and air bases the USA was able to occupy Afghanistan very cheaply and with minimum casualties ! This was no mean strategic achievement as it placed the USA right below the soft underbelly of China as well as Russia ! More significantly it reduced the flying as well as striking time to the Pakistani nuclear as well as missile installation.Close proximity to Pakistan also enabled the USA to conduct intelligence operations inside Pakistan in a far more optimum manner than ever before.



It was theorized in secret sessions of the highest level US decision making circles that although the Islamists fighting the USA had no fixed centre of gravity which could be attacked and eliminated, Pakistan with its sympathetic pro Islamist populace and nuclear and missile assets was at least a provisional centre of gravity of the Islamists.Note that US feared , not the ISI , not the tinpot Pakistani military junta , but the sentiments of the vast bulk of the Pakistani populace and its arsenal of nuclear warheads and missiles !



Thus Afghanistan was seen as a potential US base to carry out a 5 minutes over Islamabad or Kahuta just like the Israelis with US cooperation destroyed Iraq's nuclear reactor in 5 minutes over Baghdad in 1981.



In 1945 the USA had bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki not for any direct military purpose but to overawe the USSR that no one could match US military might.The USSR had faced the challenge and developed a fine nuclear arsenal to counter US aspirations to control the world.Later China also emerged as another challenger of USA ! Thanks to USSR help many South Asian countries as well as African countries fought and won wars of liberation ! The Arabs were able to confront Israel only because of Soviet aid till the collaborator Sadaat sold his soul to the USA and Israel !



The USA was all set to reduce Pakistan to size in 1977 when it financed the anti Bhutto agitation in 1977 ! This plan was delayed because of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan from 1979 till 1989 when the USA had but no option other than using Pakistan as a base for assisting the anti Soviet War in Afghanistan.



Change of posture came very quickly when after 1990 the USA started talking that Pakistan is a terrorist state or was on the brink of being a terrorist state.This was basically a war of nerves the decisive point of which was one telephone call which made Pakistan's tinpot military junta take the so called " brilliant strategic decision" of collaborating with the USA !



After the disintegration of the USSR , strategically speaking the US military targets were the littoral states of the Indian Ocean .Thus the Iraq War of 1990 , the Invasion and capture of Iraq of 2003 and the invasion of capture of Afghanistan in 2001.



Interestingly Iraq and Afghanistan were not ultimate objectives of US onslaught but merely initial bridgeheads.This was only Phase One ! Phase Two may include Pakistan and Phase Three may include Iran ! Phase Four being Chinese Singkiang and/or Central Asian Republics ! Somewhere the Americans call it Orange Revolution whose first good example was the anti Bhutto agitation that they financed in 1977 in Pakistan ! Sometimes they call it a war on terror or war against weapons of mass destruction !



History has proved that generals fail as statesmen ! In 1936 all of Hitlers generals opposed his decision to march into Rhineland ! This is so because generals think only in tangible terms ! They do not appreciate the value of intangible factors like resolution etc ! Thus after 9/11 when Pakistan's tinpot junta wargamed being invaded by USA it only thought in military terms ! It failed to appreciate that the USA was humbled in Vietnam and in Iran in 1979 ! In the process they allowed and facilitated the USA to occupy Afghanistan in very cheap military terms ! Pakistan shall pay a heavy price for this ! Whether Armitage said it or not , the USA will bomb some parts of Pakistan to the stone age in order to denuclearize Pakistan.



Pakistan is in a strange strategic situation ! It is led by a military dictator whose sole aim is to stay in power ! Its number two the so called prime minister is a US citizen and in case he dies naturally or unnaturally his successor i.e the Chairman Senate is also a US citizen ! So politically the USA is dominant in Pakistan ! But this does not make the Americans happy ! Their aim is denuclearization and complete submission of Pakistan !



Imagine the following scenario ! Pakistan's military dictator is killed in a mysterious air crash or assassinated by a common soldier on duty like Indita Gandhi ! The USA immediately issues an ultimatum that it fears that Pakistan's nuclear arsenal may fall in the hands of extremists ! A surgical nuclear strike is launched on Kahuta and Islamabad !Another general takes over power in Pakistan and capitulates to all US demands dismantling the Pakistani nuclear arsenal and its missiles ! Rationalising this on the ground that if he did not do so the USA would bomb Pakistan to stone age ! In next ten years Pakistan is Balkanised with an independent US supported Baluchistan and an independent puppet Pashtun state in NWFP and Northern Pashtun majority districts of Baluchistan ! An independent Sindh in the South , an independent Kashmir and Northern Areas with US bases for future operations against Singkiang on the Deosai Plateau and only Punjab left as Pakistan ! No nukes , no missiles , no resolve ! Just like the Christians reduced the Muslims to Granada in Spain and finally eliminated even Granada in 1492.



This is not a pessimistic view of things but a hard strategic reality ! The writing is clear on the wall ! The war which USA is fighting is not against the Pashtun tribes of Waziristan but against all Muslims ! Bagram , Khost,Jalalabad and Kandahar airfields are being developed not against the Taliban or against the Al Qaeda but for 5 minutes over Islamabad !



In strategy everything moves very slowly and it is the greatness of a statesman and military commander to assess what will happen in next 5 or ten years ! Here in Pakistan we have a situation where our military leaders are overawed by just one phone call ! From leaders of such a caliber little resolution or strategic insight can be expected !



From 1979 to 1988 Pakistan's military junta after seizing power through the backdoor , provided the USA with an active base to destabilize and destroy Afghanistan's defacto government . All infrastructure of Afghanistan was destroyed as well as all its institutions between 1979 and 1992 .Now if the Afghan state allows the USA to do so it should not be a surprise ! And why did Pakistan's military junta of 1977-88 support the so called Afghan Jihad ! So that General Zia stays in power ! The characters were different in 1979 and 2001 , but the motivation was the same !



Someone may skeptically view the above presented scenario ! The following arguments support the presented scenario ! If Saddam was destroyed on the mere suspicion that Iraq possessed Weapons of Mass Destruction why is Pakistan not a perfectly legitimate target for USA , because it is a Muslim country and posseses WMD without any doubt ! Saddam was more secular than any Muslim leader in modern history yet his country and he himself were targeted and destroyed ! What is the aim of this so called enlightened Islam espoused by Musharraf ! To act as anesthesia for USA and destroy all resistance power of the Pakistani nation ! If not strategic brilliance at least we have good anesthetists at the top ! In war surprise is the key so the USA will not politely announce its intentions before it reduces Pakistan to size ! Musharraf , Benazir and any other general that may emerge are merely pawns in the game which can be removed by air crashes or assassinations ! Waziristan , Al Qaeda and terrorism are merely hollow slogans ! The Pakistan Army is being forced into Waziristan by the USA not to attack the Al Qaeda but to create an internal divide in Pakistan ! There have been many cases of desertion of soldiers in units in Waziristan as well as cases of refusal of officers for carrying out duties seen as against their conscience ! What kind of liberalism does Musharraf want us to practice when the enemy is at the gates and even inside the Pakistani citadel of power ! What can be expected from leaders whose sons are US citizens or who consider USA safer for their families to live than Pakistan ! What can be expected from US citizens now enjoying high political office in Pakistan after having a good time in Bank of America or CITI Bank ! What respect will the army jawans have for leaders more distinguished for deciding not to fight a battle after one telephone call or more interested in privatizing the PSO , PTCL or the Steel Mill !



5 Minutes over Islamabad is a distinct possibility ! This is the irony of a nation who supplied many pilots who were blood brothers of Syrian,Iraqis and Jordanians in downing many Israeli aircrafts over Golan , Amman and Iraq ! Today the Pakistani leaders are practicing sycophancy with Israel to gain a good pat from USA !



The conclusion is that Pakistan is led by collaborators who will go to any extent to survive while its nuclear and military assets would be destroyed with partial or active cooperation of its own leaders ! Fear made men believe in the worst but here in Pakistan we have a scenario in which Pakistan's leaders are trying to sell the idea that timid strategic collaboration is strategic brilliance ! A secret clause of Vision 2030 propaganda of Pakistani sitting leadership is that by 2030 Pakistan would be a Balkanised state with no nuclear and missile assets and kicked by all its neighbours ! Good luck to vision 2030 !

Then the Bhagwan Dases of North India and Masanamuthus of Tamil Nadu can go back to having sex with farm animals.


ROFL..

Folks don't take offence at harimau. he adds comedy value to the discussion board. I just pity his situation. From being the ones who dictated rules, people of his mindset are reduced to objects of ridicule. So he's venting out his anger. Let him do it.

Kulharee writes "Masadi, an African American has a hope of becoming the President of the US while your cocksucking brothers are busy killing one another"

Actually black on black violence in the inner cities is very high, and the AA who can "hope" for becomming president just like you can "hope" to make a reasonable argument must make sure that i) he is of lighter complexion than the rest of his group, as is the case with Obama and was the case with Powell ii) is part of the establishment meaning he wont do anything cukoo like get real civil rights for the people and iii) even when he fulfils 1 and ii white racism will pick on him with racial slurs, even America's first black president Bill Clinton is not immune from using racial slurs when a black approaches a prominent position.....it's in their blood this racism due to a well matured social structure, on the other hand the "cocksuckers" as you describe them, kill each other mainly as a result of conflict started by outsiders, Iraq is a prime example, Palestine is another, the Iran/Iraq war was another and the mini civil war in Pakistan is also a case of the same outsiders.... now go ___ yourself, idiot.

"This is typical grapes are sour comment. Most of the innovation in last 50 years are contribution of USA. If they are dumbo's then who are intelligent? USA is the country, where largest number of people go to study"

Show me anybody, in the US, who is half as intelligent as Bin Laden;)

Re: # 313
BTW I thought you never belonged to the category, which requires the dumbos, read US, to appreciate. I have been working with those clay heads for several years now. I know how good the average US guy perceives anything. I have a fair idea of their problem solving skills, integrity level etc...

Ans:
This is typical grapes are sour comment. Most of the innovation in last 50 years are contribution of USA. If they are dumbo's then who are intelligent? USA is the country, where largest number of people go to study.

Re: # 320
It is not management skill...It is called leadership skill...Studying in IIM is not enough...Large number of corporate leaders ( CEO, VPs) have never studied Management...Bill Gates and Steve Jobs are no managers...
In IT space Google is now the most respected company...
How many management graduates work there?
IIT grads are highly paid as IIM MBA is masters, and those are highly paid are mostly with prior experience ( MBA + experience caues this high salary).
Some person was pointing about recruitment startegy in Gulf. Gulf countries are not famous for quality or innovation. So, what for they need IIT grads?
Management is required to maintain a company...Engineers takes it forward....

Anil,

Hawala Hub of Pakistan

Hawala Hub is Dubai, not Pakistan. Remember Benazir used to say that 'Chamak' was responsible for removing her from power? That 'Chamak' is the Hawala market in Dubai where billions are tuned over every day. And, it is perfectly legal.

Vengatramanan#326,

Thanks for your kind words. I am sure you are a very accomplished person as well.

Good luck!!

Vengatramanan,

You were probably working with someone who didnt have enough work experience and thus lacked the real world perspective to make good decisions. No one is saying that IITians are perfect and cannot make mistakes. However, they are very fast learners and can pick up stuff very quickly. I am sure that person will be doing very well in his life after he learns from his failure on that project.

Ranjit,

Happy that you own patents. Sadly I am opposed to patents too. Again it is something to do with my convictions. We will discuss about that some time later.

Please understand that it does not translate into not appreciating your hard work. I feel extremely happy and privileged to have interacted with a high calibre person.

Regards,

dost-mittar
bulleya's post is a bit like the two Shatranj ke Khiladi protaganists sitting in front of a mirror admiring themselves rather than playing chess :) ( Romair has already denied being intelligent enough for that)

Ranjit,

I never told you what project the collector sanctioned. The IIT&IIM graduate sanctioned a farm yard manure project that was proposed by some cronies in the ruling party at that time :). 20% subsidy...?

Anyways, farmers have completely switched over to tissue culture propogation, drip irrigation and organic farming. This is what I wanted to work for when I was out of the college. Things are improving.

Vengatraman,

The purpose of education is to learn how to learn. An IIT education certainly delivers that simply because of the very intense curriculum and the extreme levels of competition during those 4 years. After all every day you are competing with toppers from various schools. Therefore, you are forced to think outside the box and develop problem solving skills.

Could it do better in terms of sharpening analytical skills and innovation? You bet. However, this is a deficiency among Indians in general, given our colonial legacy of rote learning. The interesting thing to note is that IITians are in the top research programs and research labs in the USA, both in academia and in industry. Often times, they lead such institutions. Clearly they can pick up on innovation as needed.

As far as I am personally concerned, I work in industry and hold several patents.

Re: # 320


ahmedmadani Saheb,

Ranjit has explained more patiently than what I have done. I believe it looks like what I wanted to put here.

Unless you know how to work how would you know to extract work. I mean how can you set standards like productivity, quality etc...

Re: # 318

ahmedmadani Saheb,

IMHO, you are stereotyping Engineers and Managers. You have forgotten that corporates need more engineers than managers. A manager, who gets 30 times more salary, might have a hundred angineers working under him.

Though you dont get to know the IITian's package, every year the TV channels brag about the package the IIMians get here.

Re:ahmedmadaniji#318

Madaniji, if you consider any organization, it is a pyramid. As you go up that pyramid, management skills become more and more important. You have to manage projects, people, resources, businesses etc. Most companies in the US have a technical ladder that goes up to a certain point and levels out. Management track goes all the way to the top.

Therefore, at the end of the day, management skills are critical for success. At the same time, technical skills provide you the foundation on the basis of which you can do management. In other words, you should get your hands dirty doing real work before you are ready to do management. How do you manage something if you cannot understand or analyze how to build it? The problem that Vengatramanan is referring to is happening because a lot of times, people go for MBA before getting adequate work experience, and are unprepared to face the real challenges of management. Thus they end up making wrong decisions in their jobs.

As far as doing BA in history and then management is concerned, you can do that if your aim is to do marketing or sales. If you want to manage operations or finance, you should have a more solid background in engineering, science, commerce etc.

Re: # 316

Ranjit,

Let me set the record straight. I was never an IIT aspirant and I dont have personal grudges against it. You just have not gotten the macroscopic view. I am not only against IITs/IIMs but also the way formal education is imparted. You do not have to limit a carpenter from becoming an engineer by forcing him to master the art of cramming. I believe anybody can grasp what they teach you in IITs albeit there could be a time difference among individuals. Proly the slow individuals perceive different dimensions that the normally fast student do not. Perhaps the slower ones have too many questions before they accept what you teach is right. Proly the fast learning student doesn't have the ability to question.

I hope you understand that my words are not of a failed aspirant but somebody who is against the very concept of formal education which limits people from doing what they want to do. I am convinced that the amount of effort the students require to complete the formal education is reasonless and is designed to keep a large % of populace powerless. The system promotes a certain set of skills over others.

"I am an IIT Delhi B.Tech who came to the US, did my Ph.D. and have done very well for myself."

That is not surprising. Have you contributed, by ways of innovation, to the society you belong to. Please understand that I am not trying to be sarcastic.

Re: # 317 I have question, told by many engineers are not paid good world wide. While managers are generally paid about 30 times more. Has now work of making things become very easy so engineer has lost status even in marriage market. Even BA management are considered worth more that NED grads. Is engineers just have lost importance. And managing machines and engineers is very valuable . Finally will engineers will join diggers of trances and cover them. Is it worth going to engineer or better to do ba in history and go managemet route for good salary? Many engineers have not paid me many time for teachig them but its does not prejudice my mind against them. They generally talk too much details nobody can understand.

Ahmed Madaniji, LUMS graduates do very well in the US....

Vengatraman,

I am an IIT Delhi B.Tech who came to the US, did my Ph.D. and have done very well for myself. The same holds true for virtually every other IITian that I know of. For every one incident that you can write about, I can quote you thousands of outstanding success stories....

I dont know who you have interacted with, but you are completely mistaken in your opinions. I understand that people who could not get into IITs will always have a severe resentment against that institution - grapes are sour after all. I hope you grow out of that, since I have a lot of respect for non IITians. If anything, I feel that the government should open more IITs since we have so much talent in India.

Re: # 313 Mr.Ventaram I agree with you in many ways.
IIT and FIT are all illusions and illusions are more powerful than truth.
Also more you study and read more you become foolish is my general understanding.
IItians are just biblophiles and think too much and think too much about themselves and become fools. Also when all graduates die what happens to degrees dust to dust, on judgement day its good deeds and not degrees.
good afternoon

Re: # 312
Mr.Ranjit... let man feel better , do not contradict it, why you disturb him.
Only I once I went to foren country . ( I went india but india is just ordinary not too much different). But was not real foren but called UAE, sheikhdom. Many arabs are dark as coal also
I was talking to some nice Arab gentleman.
He said recruiting policy as follows in Hiarchy

top : American univ
2 : European ( england , france , germany )
( east european are not had good status they do not entertain them)
3 : arab univ ( egypt is consider high quality)
4 : IIT colleges
and rest others are "Mukhkharban Ante" ( bastared camel univ graduates)
I always give importance to uneducated recruters as they have no judgement but waht they find in field.

How is lahore Univ. management considerd in usa compared to IIT. I have heard as indians have no management capacity many iitians are laboring under Lahore graduates herad.

Re: # 312

Ranjit,

No thanks, I don't need to have IIT in my resume to make a living. My experience with the 'world class graduates' doesn't make me feel bad for not getting into the IITs :).

BTW I thought you never belonged to the category, which requires the dumbos, read US, to appreciate. I have been working with those clay heads for several years now. I know how good the average US guy perceives anything. I have a fair idea of their problem solving skills, integrity level etc...

Vengatramanan, just because you couldnt get into IIT or IIM doesnt mean that you have to rant and rave against them....the whole world knows about the quality of their graduates....in the US, if you have IIT on your resume, you get noticed right away....

Read in place of BCs

*SC/ST/MBC/OBC/BC

Re: # 302

Nonsense, the very idea of meritocracy is a sham. How many of the Einsteins and Rockfellers came out of the so called elite academies. Day in and day out, these institutes churn out dummies.

My experiences with IIT and IIM guys have been very disappointing. They can never perceive anything that happens in the real world. All they can do is to calculate and calculate using formulae and hypothesis they crammed.

Some stupid guy in 'Mahindra and Mahindra' (proly an IIMite) had some how arrived at a conclusion that the next big thing is in the unorganized farm sector. M&M over-estimated their people's intelligence over the wisdom of the farmers. They started 'Mahindra Subh Laab Services' and doled out franchisees. Idiots thought that large scale mechanized contract farming would increase productivity and hence their profits. This happened at a time when the farmer (uneducated) on the street was questioning the wisdom of having 'productivity' as the only target. Now coming back to the story, M&M appointed IIM and IIT graduates as business development managers. These vegetables went on canvassing people to take up the great opportunity. When the farmers asked questions that factored in the variables, they could not answer. They were never able to explain why the farmers needed to use high rental machineries (transplanting/harvesting) when they could do the same at lesser costs with the available labour force. The most important thing they could not understand was the intangible business benefits that you get when you are considered people friendly.

The IIM guys managed to fool a few in the business and made them take up the franchisee opportunity. You know what is the status now? M&M has closed the business division and declared that it is not as simple as selling tractors. The idea could have been a success, if the M&M had enough in their heads to understand that the majority of the whiz (IIM&IIT) kids

1. Are merely tutored on how to score in the entrance exams
2. Cannot innovate because they have not been brought up in the society where the 'needs' are.
3. Are too sophisticated to get their hands dirty
4. Start to dream doing business strategies in their well furnished cubicles

Now all those IIM/IIT guys have joined banks as, what else, investment bankers :).

In a way corporates do a big injustice to the IITians. They make them a manager right at the beginning, which ensures that the majority of them never get to know anything at shop floor level. A project manager from IIT/IIM most proly would have never coded a single line. They just keep updating the ' Billing-Detail ' spreadsheets.

Another incident was when our district collector who passed out of IIT and IIM could not understand why a young rookie like me proposed a project, that was too big (just 1 crore). He never understood the importance of scale and the experienced scientists; I managed to rope in for a tissue culture project. He had not bothered to look into the project book before meeting us and to our dismay he never understood what tissue-culture is till the end of the meeting.

Now don't speak about Infosys. I know what quality of work they do. Now without the BCs/MBCs, do you think the s/w companies could have scaled up to this level? Try to get data on the %BCs in s/w companies Vs your favoured communities. You will get a severe jolt. Even the exams, try to find who is at the top.

Now only if you understand how flawed your idea of meritocracy is...

Cramming is your strength and expecting to people to play by your rules is imbecile. The very lack of development in the sub-continent is because of the way we perceive education. It is because of the way we try to shut doors on the majority who knows the needs. The exam phenomena is just a few centuries old, does that mean we never had physicians and engineers in our society before British?

Harimau, it is time you took a lesson from your mother on what civility is all about. I am not going to abuse your women sitting behind a monitor. Perhaps I don’t have the coward genes.

Re: # 306

Arjun:

That is to get a piece of the action from Indian's surplus spending of entertainment. All this must give at least 30% ROI per year.

Just imagine, in my days, my mother used to give me 25 paisa each day.

subhaanallah...can call hamidm, Hamid M Choa-Khalsai:)

bulleya, what use is everyone else giving you envious looks if you don't consider them good enough for you to mate with.:)

#300 Posted by anil on January 27, 2008 6:07:53 pm


I have not even calculated the values of all eight franchises and compared it to Pakistan's stock exchange.


ouch...that's going to hurt the pakis real bad...

Harimau:

You cannot stop Mayawatis, Masanamuthus and Laloos. Soon they will be saptarishi to whom gotras of all Harimaus will link.

Re: # 302

Harimau:

"...Then the Bhagwan Dases of North India and Masanamuthus of Tamil Nadu can go back to having sex with farm animals..."

You post is better than anything I have ever read on Chowk!!! I thought there are only Massaddi Mian, HP Mian are the cuckoos here.

I am truly clueless. I admit.

You should have a cartoon series - Harimau Hero Honda. It will certainly beat Charlie Brown and Jihad.

Can you with farm animals, Bhagwan Dases and Masanamuthus start a party to throw Infosys in Nano out?

While at it, would you like to pack and ship Bollywood actressess too?

There would be a demand from Afghanistan to Pakistan for them. They might even stop the Jihad for a day to receive the package.

What else, keep it coming.

bulleya:

Looks like even when you are fighting an existentialist struggle, you refuse to give up your dreams of a greater Pakistan including all of Punjab and Kashmnir.;)

Ref anil #300

[India has created such places from time the days of Taxila and Nalanda to IITs and IIMs. Only excellence should be worshipped and rewarded. Tomrrows India will benefit from more such places.]

Ha ha ha! We have Arjun Singh, Minister for Human Development (more like Minister for Cattle Development) demanding OBC quotas in IITs and IIMs and Manmohan Singh the Neutered is meekly going along with that demand. In fact, the Govt of India initially set aside a 27% quoto for O(therfcuking)BC/M(otherfcuking)BC/BC classes and, when the Supreme Court said it was against the equality provision in the Constitution, said that it will add that 27% seats so that the seats available to meritorious candidates remains the same. As the Supreme Court observed, India is the only country in the world where everybody is racing to the bottom!

On top of that, Mayawati is demanding SC/ST/MBC/OBC/BC quotas in private companies located in UP. If I were Infosys, I would move the company lock, stock and barrel to Singapore where only merit is the criterion. Then the Bhagwan Dases of North India and Masanamuthus of Tamil Nadu can go back to having sex with farm animals.

[Do you know the price for Bangalore's IPL franchise that has been paid? It should tell Delhi's politician and bureaucrats that they are not number one.]

And how many votes do the high-tech employees of Bangalore and Chennai and Hyderabad and Pune collective have? Against the unwashed masses of India? The politicians KNOW what they are doing. YOU are the clueless one here.

[Is it ready?. Man-Mohan Singh should ask this question.]

ManmohanSingh is busy examining his gonads to ask or answer this question.

PS. I know some you idiots will flag this post for objectionable content. I know who you are. You are the type that is hitting on farm animals instead of hitting the text books.

Arrjun:

Pardon my sentence compositions in the following post.

Re: # 297

Bangalore should be a place to attract the best and the brightest from all over the world. Only principle it should be driven by is: "Survival of the Best". Its system should excrete out red-necks (of Massaddi Mian variety), and their running dogs (of HP Mian) variety who applaud red necks. No matter what is their color is green, saffron or red.

India has created such places from time the days of Taxila and Nalanda to IITs and IIMs. Only excellence should be worshipped and rewarded. Tomrrows India will benefit from more such places.

Just look at IPL, it is has already started to attracted the best and the brightest. The first mover, ICL, has arrows in the back.

Do you know the price for Bangalore's IPL franchise that has been paid? It should tell Delhi's politician and bureaucrats that they are not number one. And we should all celebrate it. I have not even calculated the values of all eight franchises and compared it to Pakistan's stock exchange.

Arjun you have nothing to worry about as long as that kind of stability remains west of the border, and real talent comes east of the border. I can assure you, Today's and Tomorrow's India stands to gain.

Its military must guard against what Amin sahib has called non-state elements.

Is it ready?. Man-Mohan Singh should ask this question.

HP,
Just like Agha collects his information seena ba seena, the communication of which is apt to get proliferated with personal views, biases and emotions of the momment, it is not the final word. but merely a PULSE.

Information from whatever source is compiled and analysed and counter checked. Its known as collection, collation, selection, confirmation and finally intelligence. If Agha’s information helps me in this process, it is good enough and could be good enough if confirmed. I am told that most field formations are vary of the type of intelligence that is being provided. Sources are drying out or are double crossing.

In case of the Kohat Tunnel, the detachment on the microwave station had been given a warning by the militants. They were asked to hold out either because that warning was considered to lack credence, or the commander in Kohat was too indecisive (what Agha calls a chit). In either case, the small detachment was left to its fate. They were all killed.

The problem with our intelligence establishment is that for far too long they based their intelligence and threat perception on the Indian and US Bogey. Having partnered these non state actors for so long, they invariably err when it comes to that. They are not the only ones operating, because there is bound to be a presence of other agencies. Invariably they are double crossed. Hence the best bet remains the electronic and real-time surveillance. Even these can be faulty as was the case in Bajaur Madrassa.

Consequently, most operations in these areas are because of the militants who take initiative through engagement and are then engaged by the army, or based on sketchy intelligence where many operations have run into nothing or well prepared ambushes.

They grey created by lack of credible intelligence is a major setback. There is a definitive disconnect between the field army and intelligence agencies.
Cheerios

hey capt clueless...looks like it's pureland that's being bled dry...while India's reserves are up to more than 250billion $ and it's stock market is seeing investments from the whole world, you purelanders are up shit creek without a paddle(paddle without a paki flag on it)....

Most of the economic indicators appear into reverse gear

by Javed Mahmood
Most of the key economic indicators have landed into the reverse gear in this fiscal because of a variety of crisis that had engulfed the entire country during the past many months. Details gathered by Money Plus showed that the major economic indicators like the foreign exchange reserves, trade deficit, balance of payment, dollar-rupee parity, exports, inflation, portfolio investment have shown corrosion mainly because of political chaos, coupled with the bomb blasts and frequent gory clashes with militants.
Most of the economic indicators were showing a mediocre performance during the past few months despite political uncertainty, but after the killing of PPP top leader, Benazir Bhutto, subsequent worst-ever riots and acute energy crisis have triggered the deterioration in the economy, making political and business environment more polluted and unpredictable.
According to latest statistics of the State Bank of Pakistan, the foreign exchange reserves have receded to 15.208 billion dollars by January 19, 2008, showing erosion of 1.278 billion dollars in two and a half months. Because in October 2007, the reserves hit 16.486 billion dollars mark, but the forex gradually squeezed to 15.208 billion dollars by January 19, 2008 as foreign investors ejected their stake from the stock market, balance of trade and trade deficit showed greater deterioration in this fiscal as against the previous fiscal while dollar-rupee parity also increased close to 63 rupees, from 60.50 at the start of this fiscal which led to artificial shortage of the US currency that put pressure on the foreign exchange reserves.
Another major factor that caused a blow to the foreign exchange reserves and put pressure on the exchange rate was the government’s inability to float international bonds, global depository receipts of listed companies while the privatisation process of major entities in the pipeline virtually remained paralysed because of the above-mentioned multiplicity of crisis.
In last financial year the federal government had mopped up a significant amount of foreign exchange by floating the international bonds and GDRs while in this fiscal this process proved a dream only as the crisis continued to linger on since March last year, when President Pervez Musharraf removed the Chief Justice of Pakistan Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry, a bizarre development that created political mess in the country and paved way for country-wide protests.
After a few months of suspension the federal government restored the CJP, but again opened a new chapter of political chaos by eliminating judges from the Supreme Court of Pakistan (terming them anti-government), which added fuel to fire and deepened the political crisis and uncertainty.
The nation had hardly braved the sacking of judiciary, but the killing of Benazir Bhutto, energy and flour crisis intensified the crisis, leading to erosion in the strength of the economic foundation.
In first five months of this fiscal, July-November, the current account deficit had widened to 4.784 billion dollars (4.077 billion in July-Nov FY07), while the trade deficit created a new record by excelling eight billion dollars level and settled at 8.238 billion from July-December 2007 as against 6.487 billion dollars in July-December 2006, showing a growth of 1.751 billion dollars in FY08.
In six months of FY08 the exports have depicted a meager 3.67 per cent growth against projection of around 12 per cent and amounted to 8.715 billion dollars (8.407 billion dollars in July-Dec FY07).
However, in the month of December 2007 the exports fell by 13.59 per cent because of four-day closure in the wake of merciless murder of Benazir Bhutto and energy crisis. Overall imports, however, showed 13.82 per cent growth in six months of FY08 and 25.67 per cent decline in the month of Dec 2007.
Similarly, another area of concern for the analysts and common people is the appreciation of dollar versus rupee, although the US currency is squeezing against all the other currencies. These days the dollar-rupee parity has been fluctuated near 63 rupees, from 60.50 at the start of the current financial year. The unnecessary appreciation in the US dollar would, no doubt, increase the cost of imports and put extra financial burden on the importers and general public who take foreign trips in the US-currency dominated countries.
Another development that has created panic in the capital market is the flight of foreign investment from stock market. At the outset of FY08 the inflow of portfolio investment was negative. But by November the portfolio investment at Karachi Stock Exchange had gone up to 350 million dollars.(HAHAHA...350 million $..chump change) The foreign investment at stock market continued to fluctuate throughout this fiscal, but the foreign investors finally ejected their entire stake in January this year as they observed the deepening of crisis and uncertainty and left the stock market to the local institutions and investors, who too have reduced their stakes and adopted wait and see strategy. The KSE-100 index that crossed 14,700 points last months has been now fluctuating below 14,000 points.

#296 Posted by anil on January 27, 2008 4:23:48 pm


Why will you deny him the ooportunity to prove himself in Bangalore?


It's not up to me to give him or deny him the opportunity to do anything..indians are banias...if capt clueless had it in him to achieve something, we'd have heard of a successful IT business led by Umair Raja(capt clueless' real name)...the fact that we haven't only proves that he can't hack it and has to resort to clutching at straws..imaginary straws at that...

Re: # 287

Why will you deny him the ooportunity to prove himself in Bangalore?

Bulleya# Hope your articles on looks and intelligence were in jest!. Because if you really believe in what you wrote, your anecdotal observations are a crude and stereotypical comments which are a bane of our subcontinental civilization no matter where we live, not to mention being offensive to Sikhs. The link below should tell you how science is helpful in correcting some deeply held myths.

http://varnam.org/blog/archives/2008/01/the_genetic_distance_between_k.php

HP:

OK, if you won't let go you won't.

"...he is informed about what?"

I will not cut and paste on this. But, as an example, do reflect on what he has to say about the "cowboys" within the army. This has never been mentioned in chowk before. Pavo has put it on the table for the first time. I believe this as I have heard friends in the Indian army and police talk about this. (Actually I know one such "cowboy" who is also a duffer). Trivial? Not necessarily.

Gt,
"Pavo has a POV and he is informed."

Where did that come from...he is informed about what?
From the get-go he is avoiding debate and writing ridiculous stuff! I told you in my previous post that why he is not going to get a break from me and if you read his posts and articles it is clear that he is a jihadi and I have no intention to let up! Sorry if that does not sit well with you!

pavo, seems like the few litres of inebriating elixirs you partake daily is giving you great lucidity of judgement and insight! Keep it up my friend!

Re: #260, Zeemax you profess to be some sort of authority on Pashtun's yet you betray appalling lack of knowledge of place and history. First you term tribes of two of the pashtun's greatest heroes, Khushal Khan Khattak and Ahmad Shah Abdali as "damaan", because you obviously seem to not like the pashtun "athunr" dance and then you go on and grant some sort of a false heirarchy to sundry pashtun tribes. No such things, they were all the same prior to the British advent, if you read descriptions by Raverty or Ballew. Generally all tribes were continously at war with each other, the Khattaks mostly fighting Yousafzai's and Bangashes with whom they border. A big contingent of Khattaks, under the command of Sarfaraz Khan, who was the great great grandson of Khushal Khan, along with other pashtuns went in the army of Ahmad Shah Abdali (Durrani) to conquer at Panipat. However never have been moolahs pashtun leaders, who are unnatural implants.

Why America is in Pakistan?

I have not seen anyone making a compelling case for America being in Pakistan. Without such a case, and understanding, it is impossible to counter or find alternatives.

Answer according to me the answers is twofold:
(a) to control nuclear trigger;
(b) to first track and then to cut of money that funds Islamic terrorism.

Hunt for Osama & Co. is secondary. 9/11 only made this pursuit to come out in public. Missiles were cruising over Pakistan long before that. Black Hawks had parched themselves at the cliffs of Waziristan long before that.

Chaos in Pakistan ensures that there are takers of $10 Billion to take achieve the above two goals. Therefore it serves its purpose, so long as smugglers of nuclear devices are under control.

Musharraff is now complicating things with his personal ambitions. Americans have dealt with Noriega and Shah of Iran earlier. One was sent to jail in Florida, and other was exiled to Egypt.

One more aspect of that region is that, if I could make HP Mian and Massaddi Mian respond so predictably, the experts in Washington DC and elsewhere, know that there are dogs which can be trained and will hunt for them. If they can be brainwashed and fight for the terrorists to the extent of wearing suicide belts and blowing themselves. They can be trained to counter the terrorists as well. After all Shiva ji had Afghan general on his side to fight Aurangzeb. This may be due to the nature of indoctrination methods adopted to teach Islam from childhood, or maybe there is something in Islam that makes its adherents fall in line that much easily. I am not an expert, but I know that neither Laddu jis nor Pat Robertson, or even Pope or Zen can deliver a following that Osama can deliver.

Therefore, the above makes this chess board a very interesting game to watch.

Also a genuine leader of Pakistan, must understand, that if it were not for its nuclear triggers, Pakistan would have demised a while ago. Such a wonderful job its previous leaders have done.
The second goal tracking and cutting fund flow became important because Pakistan’s Hawala system was a conduit to fund Islamic terrorism. That made Pakistan the Hawala Hub.

This leader must understand that anyone who will stand between the rest of the world, and these triggers and this hub, will be bombed out. Nuclear Iran is third world war, Bush has said it. He was not alone, when he made that bold statement.

Regarding both Nuclear Triggers of Pakistan – I know it is very sensitive for civilian Pakistanis; and Hawala Hub of Pakistan - a genuine Pakistani leader must negotiate a paid for transition to peace, prosperity and integrity of Pakistan.

The world will listen and do something too. Nuclear free Japan and Germany became economic forces. Hawala Hub is a dirty game, getting rid of it improves Pakistan’s image.

If I were that Pakistani leader, I would negotiate with the world – that includes America, EU, Russia and China for the nuclear free Pakistan, and Hawala Hub free Pakistan. India is too puny. I would make this deal public in my election manifesto and show what guarantees and road map to peace and prosperity this agreement delivers for new Pakistan.

Jinnah did something similar to create Pakistan. People voted for him overwhelmingly. This “New Deal� for “New Pakistan� should be the manifesto, and it will be very popular and voted to power, by all not just civilian Pakistani.

Sadly for Pakistanis, its institutions produce more distracters like HP Mian – who is ready call “Mother Burner, Ganesh Mutant, Criminals and their Supporter like Pavo�; and Islamic red-necks like Massaddi Mian – who is ready to “go _____, yourself� and insults people with alternate views as “latrines in the mind�. Running dogs of Islamic red-neck then come out and laugh, as if it were some tamashaa.

Is your Pakistan, a tamashaa; is my question for these running dogs of Islamic Red Necks?

Where is “New Pakistan�? Where is the “New Deal� for this new Pakistan?

It can be here right at the Chowk. It can come through smart people like: Guls, Ras’s, Zeemaxs, Romairs, Zeena, Cliftonbridges, Mantolives, Aisha Sarwaris, Salim Chauhans, Tahmeds, and Hamidm. There is an eclectic mix of age and diversity of thoughts among these proud Pakistanis.

Only the perceived nemesis America has interest in keeping Pakistan in piece. I do not know, anyone listened to Imran Khan’s interview on NPR, where he said only America is interested in Pakistan, no one else is, and therefore, he comes to Washington DC to make his case.

Why should Pakistan be demised? I would never know the answer.

HP:

"when Did I stop him from posting?"

No you haven't. And I hope he does not stop from posting. But he is new here, so you got to give him a breather. Your interaction, his and yours, could be much more fruitful (for us) if you guys came to "know" each other a bit. Pavo has a POV and he is informed. A good debate between you two guys could be very helpful. But you are being caustic and many in chowk are pointing this out to you. Hell HP, if you and me were to meet somewhere over some good wine and I were not to know that you are HP from chowk, I would bloody run leaving the good wine!

GT,

when Did I stop him from posting? That is a ridiculous thing to say by you or zee. But sure I will challenge for his nonsense. I am not asking you to agree with me. It is not my fault that he can't take the criticism.

Further there is no straw man her. I replied to what he implied that the agents go out in public to get the info(the truck driver bit).
I said that is a tactics used by the local agencies and not by ISI and MI guys!

For your info, in Wazirstan there is no civilian intelligence set up it is mostly army intelligence.
You did not even understand the part in my post about grooming and developing sources rather than collecting info from the general public(truck drivers etc)
Read the post carefully before commenting!
Thanks.

#277 Posted by HP:

HP,

You are mis-quoting pavo, creating a straw hat and then crushing it with a bull-dozer. OK for debating circles in Harvard and St. Mary's and perhaps even in chowk. But some of us are interested in what pavo has to say.

For example, this is what you write:

["#265 Posted by pavocavalry
“What is the Paki intelligence ? An intelligence operative stated that they dont have the guts to go out of a fort of FC in Waziristan�

......

ISI and the MI intelligence have been trained for years by first the British and now the US agencies and the method they use is creating and grooming moles in the areas and gather information thru them. You don’t expect a white CIA officer roaming in the streets of Pindi to learn about the military preparedness of Pakistan. He will cultivate relationship with the army officers in key positions to get that information.]


But let us quote pavo in full:

["What is the Paki intelligence ? An intelligence operative stated that they dont have the guts to go out of a fort of FC in Waziristan.They meekly step out of a Qila and stop some truck drivers and ask whats going on.From what they scramble all the guys from Military Intelligence, the ISI , the Corps Intelligence and the FC Intelligence sit down and make a generally similar report.The guy who compares all reports in GHQ jumps with joy when he sees all these reports and states that all reports can be cross checked and are correct.There is the Sab Accha mentality since Mughal times.Sab Accha means All Correct. So in the final summing it is gleefully concluded that the writ of the Paki Govt is established in all parts of tribal areas ! Glory be to Allah."]

So you tell me. The Brits and CIA have taught Pakistanis to base their intelligence reports ONLY on reports provided by truck drivers?

Look, you have made your point and leave it at that.

#285 Posted by anil on January 27, 2008 10:47:12 am

Do you know what capt clueless said about what it takes for an IT company to succeed?

Afghan looks, Pakistani management skills and Indian brains..

I kid you not...

#276 Posted by bulleya on January 27, 2008 9:37:37 am


yet it has lost.....and has lost big time in iraq


with every post, you prove why you are indeed capt clueless..

the US loss, as it were, is only to the extent that the US has failed in the stupid goals it set for itself...The US government fell for it's own propaganda and forgot that you can bring the islamic camel to the fountain of liberty but you can't force it to drink..

If the US plans all along were to just occupy iraq and just take the oil, I assure you the tactics and results would be much different..in fact, I can bet you a tshirt with the flag of any country that the US has just such a plan ready for saudi arabia if things were to go south there..



how will pakistan do it with a few hundred million in the mountains of the tribal area, against a group that has a history of fighting.......


fantastic...you're between a rock and a hard place...the rock being the phone call from DC that makes your generals pee in their pants and the hard place being the jihadis you can't defeat...

hmm...I suppose you could say pakistan was being bled...

Re: # 264

Romair:

"...everyone there will look like me, and i will not get the special attention that i am now so used to in south india..... "

You will be a very successful entreprenuer. This is the first principle of entreprenuership. You have it Romair, let Hamidm Sahib & Co. say whatever they want.

From the same article iof NYT link in #281

“The purpose of the mission,� a senior official said, “was to convince Musharraf that time is ticking away,� and that the increased attacks on Pakistan would ultimately undermine his effort to stay in office."

So now he is publically and rather brashly warned!

major, colonels and even generals are a dime a dozen in pakistan


That may very well be but it doesn't change the fact that he seems to be closer to the ground and know some facts that aren't in the media.

Opinions don't matter...you can think that t-shirts with paki flags can keep you safe..that just shows you are deluded..

facts matter..if he's saying a tunnel is in control of the jihadis, based on what's he's seen or heard, there's no reason to doubt him unless we read otherwise in the media.

pavodude..: you're clearly not capt clueless...so there are some here who might want to read your facts and your opinions(even if we don't care much about the opinions or think they're based on a self-deluded worldview)...

#281 Posted by HP on January 27, 2008 10:36:12 am

Did you read the article about the haqqani aide who was gunned down by unknown gunmen...heh..unknown to pakis maybe..

Btw,
Please read this article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/27/world/asia/27pakistan.html?_r=1& ex=1359090000&en=
bc4174e5a88765e0&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland& emc=rss&pagewanted=all&oref=slogin

"But in the unannounced meetings on Jan. 9 with the two American officials — Mike McConnell, the director of national intelligence, and Gen. Michael V. Hayden, the C.I.A. director — Mr. Musharraf rebuffed proposals to expand any American combat presence in Pakistan, either through unilateral covert C.I.A. missions or by joint operations with Pakistani security forces."

Gives you some idea as to where things are headed.
And we have pavo here who feels that US landing in the tribal areas "would be a treat" and the tribes are going to fight with "Grey matter"...heheheh...

Correction:

That would MAKE him more upset than the Lowly major. At least you realize that he is just making things up withOUT any genuine analysis or proposing any solutions. I agree he is no scholar, no analyst or neither and good communicator. Stop pretending Pavo!

#271 Posted by ijaz_gul
“I realise he is no scholar and expect no theories or conclusions from him�

That would him more upset than the Lowly major. At least you realize that he is just making things up with any genuine analysis or proposing any solutions. I agree he is no scholar, no analyst or neither and good communicator. Stop pretending Pavo!

#266 Posted by pavocavalry

“my job is to make an assessment for things as i see them as the truth.i am an independent thinker. i am not for a good chit or for any external benefit.�

That is a news reporters job and there tons of them who do a better job without pretending to be historians and analysts like you do!

At least you have admitted you limitation and that is first step in your redemption on this site!

Re: # 265

Pavo

You have correctly identified the changed global geopolitics where non-state actors will play major role. Pakistan is not just a test case, its actually the main theater where lines will be drawn.

Balkanization is very much part of the grand scheme provided the state of Pakistan fails to deliver. Will that happen? I pray not, but the way things are going its a real possibility.

#269 Posted by hamidm2
"As an officer who served in Pakistan Army I would sum up the situation as following "
.... major, colonels and even generals are a dime a dozen in pakistan and like the rest of them (including our own field marshall romair) you are an 'expert' on everything, specially geopolitics and horticulture ....... name dropping, using 'personal' anecdotes, expounding on the theory of everything and putting foot in mouth is common among 'experts' like you ......
you, sir, are a fool! .......�

Thank you Hamidm for picking up the theme where I left off. Certainly I can never be as eloquent as you are. The point being: a Major and that too a retired one for at least 15 years has no inside track that can assure us the validity of his information. As you can see from his posts, he is relying on sina ba sina news that travels in Pakistan faster than any rocket!

#265 Posted by pavocavalry
“What is the Paki intelligence ? An intelligence operative stated that they dont have the guts to go out of a fort of FC in Waziristan�

I have no intention of giving him lessons in intelligence gathering but what he described above is just one method of gathering information and only used by the local intelligence agencies where the operatives mingle with the people and listen to what is going on.

ISI and the MI intelligence have been trained for years by first the British and now the US agencies and the method they use is creating and grooming moles in the areas and gather information thru them. You don’t expect a white CIA officer roaming in the streets of Pindi to learn about the military preparedness of Pakistan. He will cultivate relationship with the army officers in key positions to get that information.

This guy really does not understand the basics of intelligence gathering and Ijaz gul claims that he has learned something from him

“I recently met some mid ranking and major general level army officers and discussed Waziristan with them.�

And what conclusion these mid ranking officers made? Here it is for you:

“Waziristan is a case of clash of interests among ambitious officers trying to get a good chit (report) and serious regimental officers who see soldiering as a way of life.�

“A serving army officer in that area compared Pakistan Army and the FC in Waziristan to a mouse running from point A to point B while he said that the tribals were the lazy cat watching this despicable mouse.�
“THE GREAT DANGER IS NOT PAKISTAN BUT THE FALLOUT AFTER ITS DEMISE.

THE GREAT DANGER TO WESTERN CIVILISATION ARE NON STATE ACTORS NOT
THE HOPELESS PAKISTANI STATE.�

I asked him a question: what would be that fallout, enlighten us please and he repeats the same thing in Caps!

Okay pavo and peope like Ijaz and Zeemax that are learning from Pavo, you tell us what would be the fallout and how would you describe it?

Come on guys don’t wait to post replies until I go to bed! Like Pavo did last night!

hamidm2 mian #: "but, any government that follows must put an end to this 'tribal' nonsense once and for all ...... these primitive savages must be civilized, washed and made part of regular paki society.."

....seems like de ja vu, all over again.....we had this discussion when you were putting out the same theory on iraq....now that it is a gone case, you seem to have shifted to pakistan.....

but tell me one thing:....the usa controlled all of iraq - its judiciary, executive and legislature; its police and its govt.....it put in $80 billion dollars a year into its military adventure.....it controlled the complete airspace and the ground.......it controlled the media and the public.....it was backed by the largest economy in the world, and by 70% of its population.....it had total influence over every neighbor of iraq......

yet it has lost.....and has lost big time in iraq (not to mention about to lose in afghanistan also).....

......now, lets assume, for the sake of argument, your views are correct, and the tribal areas should be bombed and bombed......how will that be successful, when pakistan has none of the advantages that usa had in iraq........

if usa couldn't do it with $80 billion a year on the flat terrian of iraq, against a group that is not know for fighting......how will pakistan do it with a few hundred million in the mountains of the tribal area, against a group that has a history of fighting.......

don't you think it is time for you to give up........iraq is a mess, why do you wish the same for pakistan......

right or wrong, i don't see how a military solution to such a conflict will ever prove successful.....i told you the same thing years ago, about iraq.......one would think after a while, it would eventually hit you......

its about time, bush realized that you and the religious right have no answers........and its about time that musharraf realized that bush has no answer.......

hamidm2: bilkul teek, kaaravan tayray gey aao spey ghapi.... zamong kaaravan kho rawan they.... ko spey dir hum o ghapi no they ba bya hum rawan e... zaka chey da spoo kar ghapaydal wai... ghup ghup aao bus bya tuss!

Hamid bacha, ka praday dair hum kha she no praday we, khpal o paijana aao pa khpalo zra khug ka.... the mullah da more kuss, na mullah kala pakhtoon wo aao na ba kala pakhtoon she... zamoong sta pashan daman pakar the... dont lose faith... and listen to the first ever pashto rock song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y71_h3vxMQg


Zeemax: that khattak dance is actually the khattak form of Attan, attan has never been looked down upon, the wazirs, mahsud, kakars, infact all the "PaSHtoons" (the ones who say sha instead of kha) have their own special attan which is a form of tribal identity.

In Govt. College Tank, during attans everyone would be eager to take a shot at the dhol, and usually it would be by turn.

Most of the "damman" thingy comes from feudal areas of Charsadda etc. Singers like Kamal Mahsood and Shahbaz Khan Wazir may be looked down upon in the plains of Charsadda, and might be simply called "Shah Khels" aka "Dammans" but back in waziristan they are considered equals. So this revulsion against and dance and music had always been a feudal trait.

However, this recent rise of fundamentalism in the tribal belt has led to an onslaught against attan, infact in many wazir villages there is a penalty for playing the drum, so if someone wants to have an attan dhol they have to pay the jirga a fine which usually is above Rs. 10,000.

But thanks to channels like Khyber TV Attan is now becoming the norm in the plains, I mean in PaKHtoon territory. That "Damman" definition is evolving as well, I mean there are people like "Sajid and Zeeshan" and Fasi Zaka who hail from feudal families of Charsadda and are pretty well respected for their talents and dont exactly carry the title of a Dum!.

The revulsion against the Khattaks stems from the fact that most khattaks resided in areas that were never fertile, Karak for instance, for this reason the sole profession for these people had been employment in armies, even invading ones, whether it was the Mughals or the British army. Khattaks usually joined in a larger number compared to other tribes. Khushal baba's revulsion against the khattaks stemmed from the fact that when he decided to stand up against the mughal, he was aided by the Afridis and the Yusufzais. He said A LOT of stuff about Khattaks which were mere generalizations, and the catharsis of a desperate man. Only fools would take it as an accurate description of the pathans in general.

Re: # 273

zeemax,

.... but that's want these ba*%#ards are paid to do ... arn't they? ..... or do you want them to check electric meters, run the railways, make breakfast cereal and run the banks ? ...... i think it is time they paid for the free langar .......

Pavo,

Liuet Gen Safdar was a son of a bitch who said in a televised interview "Mein apney chhey sau aur bandey bhi shaheed karwa doon ga".

Apney bandey? Behnc**** tumhari maan key janey huey they?

And for what?

The bastard. What the fuck did he think soldiers' lives are worth?

Re: # 271

ijaz gul,

.... i am not a supporter of the present regime - musharraf is a bigger fool than the majors and colonels he commanded - but, any government that follows must put an end to this 'tribal' nonsense once and for all ...... these primitive savages must be civilized, washed and made part of regular paki society (even though it is not much of an improvement) ....... there are what - three or four million of them ? ........ if we loose a million or so, it is okay ...... the world cannot afford barbarians running around in the twenty first century ......... the incorrigible afghans and pushtuns are unlucky that they were never really colonized (civilized)

In respone to my point that the tribals were shifting from unconventional to conventional,two angles were raised by masadi. The crux is, who makes them stronger to shift to a more organised and expensive technique of combat? Pakistan Army itself or some foreign power like USA. I would say neither.

It is the political bankruptcy of the present regime, that has run out of ideas and lacks a script to follow. When that happens, use of violence is the only recourse.

Why I want Agha to speak out is primarily to get a pulse and feedback. I realise he is no scholar and expect no theories or conclusions from him. mNevertheless, his inputs help me make a picture of what is happening.

I am not an alarmist, but the situation is serious. To put in another way, 'its never been that bad'

Re: # 268

zeemax,

..... as a child i spent every summer at khan baba's house on gurdat singh road in quetta and he would try to get me remember the family lineage ........ dost muhammad khan begat afzul khan, who begat dost muhammad khan, who begat amir abudul rehman khan who begat habibullah khan ......... habibullah kahn, if i remember correctly, was born in tashkent ........

.......... the whole purpose of this exercise was to prove that he was a direct descendent of ahmed shah abdali who, i later found out, was born in multan - of all places!..... i remember my grandfather telling me that he wanted to be buried in kahdahar in the shadow of abdali baba's tiomb ....... his sons, inayatullah and hidayatullah, buried him in quetta .... and to add insult to injury, inayatullah married a shinwari .......

Re: # 265

pavocavalry,

"As an officer who served in Pakistan Army I would sum up the situation as following "

.... major, colonels and even generals are a dime a dozen in pakistan and like the rest of them (including our own field marshall romair) you are an 'expert' on everything, specially geopolitics and horticulture ....... name dropping, using 'personal' anecdotes, expounding on the theory of everything and putting foot in mouth is common among 'experts' like you ......

..... i remember, during the kargil fiasco my brother-in-law, who was a squardon leader at that time, was telling my father, "sir, this time, we have the bloody indians where we want them" ..... my father gave him that look and asked, "well, how do you know that" ..... he said, "sir, i flew back with the chief (musharraf) and he said, "boys! we will sort out these bloody chaps this time"" ......... after he left, my father told me, "your brother-in-law is a fool, but it is too late now"...........

........ you, sir, are a fool! ....... (and i say this without ever having read the nation)

#261 Posted by hamidm2,

Haha hamidm2, you really know the various Pushtoons. I admire that.

The Shinwaris are the transporters ... the businessmen ... the money lenders ... the entire back bone of the Pushtun enterprise.

They are reviled for their wealth, but they are not crooks. They own the entire inter-state trucking in Pakistan (trucking not interstate passenger buses which is controlled by the Mianwali Rokris) plus most of the famous 'Bara' markets.

But hats off SIR!

Re: # 264 Punjabis are not white they just wannabe whites. Most whites of europe consider them as "indians" this is insult . Just like lite beer or diet coke is not not real beer or real coke Punjabis are not real white to be proud of they are more like lite white or diet whites for all that white chamadi supremacy of brown brits of Punjab.

Now this diet or lite whites may not like but president is dark man born in Mughal capital who is overlord of pakistan and makes all lite or diet whites to tremble and they are beggar against him.
Same thing supreme leader of dark hindustanis and king of urban Sindh is dark man ( whose fater was station master of agra city ) Quaid E Awam Altafbhai , all lite or diet white wannabies can hate him as much as they want but he controls all native retards controlling capitai/ economic/ great port city.

With all that lite white skin over lords of Pakistan are Dark north Indian Mughals lording over white punjabis and all retards.

my job is to make an assessment for things as i see them as the truth.i am an independent thinker. i am not for a good chit or for any external benefit.

Waziristan is the testing ground , the acid test of Pakistan Army's worth in the so called war against terrorism.

What is the Paki intelligence ? An intelligence operative stated that they dont have the guts to go out of a fort of FC in Waziristan.They meekly step out of a Qila and stop some truck drivers and ask whats going on.From what they scramble all the guys from Military Intelligence, the ISI , the Corps Intelligence and the FC Intelligence sit down and make a generally similar report.The guy who compares all reports in GHQ jumps with joy when he sees all these reports and states that all reports can be cross checked and are correct.There is the Sab Accha mentality since Mughal times.Sab Accha means All Correct. So in the final summing it is gleefully concluded that the writ of the Paki Govt is established in all parts of tribal areas ! Glory be to Allah.

I recently met some mid ranking and major general level army officers and discussed Waziristan with them.

We came to the following conclusions :--

Waziristan is a case of clash of interests among ambitious officers trying to get a good chit (report) and serious regimental officers who see soldiering as a way of life.The fast track guys want to bash up some villages with artillery fire and do some dog catching for Americans and improve their career index called OEI.
It was concluded at that time that the first major diasaster was Liuet Gen Safdar.He wanted a fast track approach for the problem, a Punjabi and a careerist.His policy was bomb everyone,kill everyone and get the feathers in the cap for being a conqueror.This was counter productive.The armed forces lost all credibility in this era.Safdar was finally packed off to the post of director logistics in the army Headquarters a post seen as waiting area for dumped generals.
Lieut General Hamid Khan a Pashtun armoured corps officer from 11 Cavalry was not effective.During his tenure the army was neither here nor there.He was serving for most of the time when the Waziristan accord had been signed.
The present corps commander Masud Aslam was a Kargil Warrior ! He again tried to introduce the Safdar policy with diasastorous results.
One Major General level divisional commander stood out.Strangely it was a Shia officer Major General Mir Haider.Although a Punjabi he understood the Pasthun psyche and did well.His modus operandi was psy war.Healing the tribal ego .Gifting copies of Holy Quran.
Another Major General Sahi was a failure.Again he was using the Safdar approach.Kill , batter , destroy and bomb.Sahi had close links with the Qusling PML as his brother was a politician from that party.In words of a direct participant officer , he was also a total failure.He was finally packed off as commandant of infantry school.Another resting place of dumped generals.In his dining out he said that he had established writ of Paki Government in Waziristan and was corrected there and then by a serving army officer that this was a white lie.He was challenged that he could not drive with his GOC's flag from Miran Shah to Bannu even with an escort ! He was infamous in the Frontier Corps Officers for trying to prod them to attack this village or that because he wanted to get a good chit from his bosses.
A serving army officer in that area compared Pakistan Army and the FC in Waziristan to a mouse running from point A to point B while he said that the tribals were the lazy cat watching this despicable mouse.
The summing up was as following :---
THE GREAT DANGER IS NOT PAKISTAN BUT THE FALLOUT AFTER ITS DEMISE.

THE GREAT DANGER TO WESTERN CIVILISATION ARE NON STATE ACTORS NOT
THE HOPELESS PAKISTANI STATE.

THE MORE THE PAKI DON QUIXOTES ARE PROVED AS SPINELESS CLOWNS IN
WAZIRISTAN THE MORE DANGEROUS THE SITUATION WOULD BECOME.

WARFARE HAS BECOME CHEAP.ITS VETY EASY TO ROCK THE BOAT AND THE
NON STATE ACTORS ARE GOOD AT DOING IT.



THE FRONT IS NOT CLEAR.THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN FRIEND AND FOE IS NOT
CLEAR.

My assessment is that if the Americans decide to knock out pakistan , in strategic terms , there will be no resistance in punjab and sindh ,only the pashtuns will be their adversaries and the settled area pashtuns will be as hopeless as the punjabis and sindhis

Pakistan's military and political establishment is simply hopeless.this theme is discussed in my article 5 minutes over islamabad . The Pakistani military junta has already lost all credibilty with the Pakistani population and cannot control the situation.

The Pakistani troops are demoralised and are no longer convinced about the righteousness of their cause against the so called Islamists or Al Qaeda.

Even the Americans will not achieve much if they enter Waziristan.The terrain is bad and Americans will be a good cause for Jihad.The solution is withdrawal from Waziristan and regime change in Pakistan.The Americans should let the hopeless Paki politicians do the dirty job of all this.

As an officer who served in Pakistan Army I would sum up the situation as following :---

The Pakistani High Command a Punjabi-Mohajir team lacks the grey matter or resolve to deal with the tribals.

The troops they are commanding have lost faith in the cause they are fighting for.This is the worst thing for an army.

All said and done the tribals can be dealt politically.Any Pakistani officer who is posted as commander 11 Corps is a job seeker.He is trying to be a Napoleon and a Punjabi cannot be a Napoleon with a tribal !

The present Governor of NWFP Owais Ghani has already miserably failed in Baluchistan.He is regarded as a non Pashtun as he is the hated Hindko Punjabi speaking from Peshawar city just like General Kakar, whose first cousin he is.

The whole situation requires a change in command in Pakistan from top to bottom.

shankar #: "Thanks! So you do admit Indians are smarter than Pakistanis...."

....i have been admitting this from times immemorial.....it is quite obvious that indians are more intelligent than pakistanis.......much like it is obvious that pakistanis are better looking......

now would you rather date indra nooyi or pamela anderson.....that is the million dollar question.....

actually, south indians are the intelligent ones......north indians are like us......quite stupid......and the sardarjis amongst them, may actually be more stupid than us....(i am still doing research on this one).....

......over time, though, the north indians have mated with some south indians, so they have become a bit more intelligent than us.....though they have gone down in the looks dept.....on the other hands, we have mated with the afghan genes of nwfp and baluchistan, which has made us even better looking, though more stupid.....

"oh..i get it..gals strip search you in india..."

actually, quite a few of the kingfisher air hostesses, in their tight red uniforms, were eyeing me.......first, i thought it was because i had something on my face, then i realized i was a pakistani is south india.....as someone who spent most of his life eyeing north american air hosteses, this felt strange....

dullahbhatti #: "as nice looking racks as Pamela anderson has, I am pretty sure romari would like his daughter to be an Indra Nooyi than Pamela Anderson.:-)"

yes, i would definitely want my daughter to be indra nooyi......though it is impossible for any of my descendants to be indra nooyi......my genes are north indian, and my wife's are afghani...our next generation will be even more stupid than us.....though better looking....

"BTW Romair, did get a chance to go to East Punjab, Chandigarh etc yet?"

nope, not yet.....still stuck in south india....it is a different country, all together......even north indians look lost there......i am not sure i want to go to chandigarh...everyone there will look like me, and i will not get the special attention that i am now so used to in south india.....

hamidm: in an attempt to console you, let me remind you of masadi's tragic pedigree. He can point to nothing but goat uncles and lizard aunts in his family tree. And dont even ask masadi about cousin yellow-livered toad. of course masadi remains the black sheep of the family...

hamidm: In other words, you father was a mere panjabi daal khor. My heart weeps for you having to live day after day with this terrible pedigree both from both sides of the family. :-(

Re: # 260

zeemax,

...... as a child i could never quite understand why my grandpa was mad at habibullah, who threw out amanullah ,who in turn had killed habibullah (his father) who was in turn killed by nadir shah even though he had sworn on the koran not to do so ...... and then there were my uncles - habbibullah, inayatullah and hidayatullah ...... grandpa would always say that inayatullah was a scoundrel and amanullah should never have trusted him .......... i liked my uncle inayatullah so i went to grandma, who was a mohammadzai from jalalabad, and complained about grandpa ..... she told me that all popalzais from kandahar are scoundrels and that they were not even real durranis and that khan baba, my grandpa, was no exception ..... my grandpa said that zahir shah was a mohammadzai and scum ...... then she told me that amanullah khan had spent three days in their house in peshawar before moving to zurich ..... according to her amanullah was a kafir, but nadir shah was even worse ....... habibullah was a tajik dog .... but the worse were the shinwaris who, even though they were pashtuns, conspired against a barakzai king ........ "shinwaris are dogs ....... remember!" ....... to this day i hate shiwaris and even though grandpa was a popalzai i don't trust hamid karzai .....

..... i thank the moon god that my father was just a plain old teez-mar dal-khor potohari whose ancestors lived in choa-khalsa for generations and did not move from iraq or some other bedouin land ......

#257 Posted by hamidm2,

What Khushal Khan said was right. But I wondered why he didn't mention the Khattaks?

Oh ... well ... he was Khushal Khan Khattak. Right?

These Khattaks are at the lowest rung of the Pushtoon ethnic ladder, and are called 'Damman' (i.e Kanjars in Punjabi). These are the people who you see performing the 'Khattak' dance (projected as the great cultural icon of Pushtoon culture which is totally alien to Pushoon Wali) and whose teenagers are the staple diet of the Pushtoon pederasts. Durranis are a close second above Khattaks.

Are you a Khattak or a Durrani? In any event you're one of the 'damman'.

pavocavalry dude. Come back.

HP is just a goatbrain who read a few blogs.

And don't type in ALL CAPS.

Romair aka bulleya...considering the mess the land of the pure is in, do you want to revise some of your choice predictions?

Posted by Romair Oct 16, 2001 12:17 pm

I had stated at the time of the coup, that India would be well-advised to negotiate with Pakistan on Kashmir, when Pakistan was at its weakest. It could have gotten a really good deal. I will say again, India should negotiate now, lest Pakistan`s position continue to get stronger. If Musharraf can keep some checks for ten years on the corrupt politicians who will get elected in one year`s time, Pakistan could be different place in a decade. At that time, it is quite possible, Pakistan will not want to negotiate in Kashmir, and will be more than happy to let India, ``bleed`` there.

........ the pagal pathans are perhaps the most primitive people that walk the planet today .......... they are worse than havayoon, they are animals ! ... rabid spays!.... and i say that as a half-breed popalzai durrani ....... if - by the grace of the moon god - it weren't for the other half, i too would be a murderous savage chasing tha caravan that left a long time ago ........"karwaan theregi aw spi ghapi "

...... and here is what their own national poet said about them 400 years ago :


Of the Pathans that are famed in the land of Roh,
Now-a-days are the Mohmands, the Bangash, and the Warrakzais, and the Afridis.
The dogs of the Mohmands are better than the Bangash,
Though the Mohmands themselves are a thousand times worse than the dogs.
The Warrakzais are the scavengers of the Afridis,
Though the Afridis, one and all, are but scavengers themselves.
This is the truth of the best of the dwellers in the land of Pathans,
Of those worse than these who would say that they were men?
No good qualities are there in the Pathans than are now living

YOu can bet your bottom $$ that US forces are already involved in whacking the jihadis in paki territory...like the haqqani aide who was whacked by "unknown gunmen"...



The New York Times
Printer Friendly Format Sponsored By

January 27, 2008
Ex-Pakistani Official Says Policy on Taliban Is Failing
By JANE PERLEZ

SHERPAO, Pakistan — In the walled courtyard of the modest whitewashed mosque, a suicide bomber worked his way into in the middle of a packed congregation and unleashed his explosives during prayers last month, killing 53 villagers and wounding 143 others.

The target of the attack, the former interior minister, Aftab Khan Sherpao (pronounced Share-POW), whose ancestral village sits at the foothills of the tribal region where the Taliban and their partners in Al Qaeda roam largely unfettered, was left unscathed.

But the second attack in eight months on Mr. Sherpao, 64, who was until recently his nation’s most senior law enforcement official, left him more frustrated and more outspoken about the failure of the government to respond aggressively to the rapidly spreading Taliban insurgency that is seeking to destabilize Pakistan.

The weakness of the Pakistani police and the army response to determined and religiously motivated Taliban fighters was allowing the insurgency to get stronger day by day, he said.

“The police are scared,� Mr. Sherpao said. “They don’t want to get involved.� The Frontier Corps, a paramilitary force that could help in tracking down leads on suicide bombers, was “too stressed, fighting all over,� he said. The Pakistan Army has forces in the tribal areas where the militants have built their sanctuaries but the soldiers have remained in their headquarters. “They are not moving around,� he said. “That’s their strategy.�

Last Sunday, another attack near his village illustrated the gravity of the quickly deteriorating situation, compounded by the fact that the militants were able to get away with their attacks unpunished, he said.

Mr. Sherpao said he was awakened by a telephone caller who said that a senior official of the Intelligence Bureau, one of Pakistan’s most powerful intelligence agencies, had just been assassinated as he walked to the mosque in his village near Charsadda, where Mr. Sherpao had been the target of a suicide bomber last April.

“The Taliban came in two vehicles,� Mr. Sherpao said. “They said to the intelligence officer, ‘Are you so and so?’ When he said ‘Yes,’ they shot him dead.�

The failure to investigate aggressively, Mr. Sherpao said, had emboldened the insurgents who interpret the government’s inaction as an inability to or an unwillingness to investigate.

A report released this month by the Pak Institute for Peace Studies, a nongovernmental research center based in Lahore, said suicide bombings in Pakistan had soared to 60 last year from 6 in 2006.

A document from the Interior Ministry last July warned the government of President Pervez Musharraf that the Taliban were spreading so fast that “swift and decisive action,� was needed to prevent the insurgency from engulfing the rest of the country.

Six months later, the picture was “very bleak,� Mr. Sherpao said. “It has increased, with no checks anywhere,� he said of the insurgency.

The recommendations in the Interior Ministry document for pushing back the militants — including enhancing local law enforcement and mobilizing public opinion — had not been followed, he said.

Mr. Sherpao, who comes from the Pashtun ethnic group that dominates the North-West Frontier Province and is the same ethnic group of the Taliban he wants to defeat, appeared depressed and uncertain that the government could prevail.

In the North-West Frontier Province, there was a risk of “total Talibanization,� he said.

Military and police actions were not the only factors necessary to turn around the situation, he said, adding that moderate political forces need to join hands.

“You need focused efforts and a clear perception of what you want to do,� he said. “Unless you involve the political parties, civil society, religious leaders, this is not going to make any headway.�

The Taliban, he said, were able to outmaneuver the government because they were well financed, were skilled at propaganda, and were even paying political candidates opposed to them in the tribal areas to keep them from participating in elections.

This grim assessment by Mr. Sherpao, who is one of Pakistan’s best-known politicians, comes as senior officials in Washington have said they are increasingly concerned about the growing efforts by the Taliban and Al Qaeda to destabilize the government.

The Bush administration has discussed in recent weeks sending more military trainers to assist the Pakistan Army in counterinsurgency tactics. The administration is also debating whether to strengthen covert operations by the Central Intelligence Agency.

The leader of United States Central Command, Adm. William J. Fallon, met the new chief of the Pakistan Army, Gen. Ashfaq Kayani, during a visit to Islamabad last week to discuss proposals by the administration.

In most cases, Mr. Sherpao said, the police have had a boilerplate approach to solving the suicide bombings. They have blamed them on Baitullah Mehsud, the leader of a new association of Taliban militia in the tribal areas, who has been cited by Washington as having links to Al Qaeda, and left it at that, Mr. Sherpao said. “Not one suicide bombing has been resolved,� he said. “They just link it to Baitullah Mehsud, and that’s all.�

The director of the C.I.A., Gen. Michael V. Hayden, said last week that he believed terror networks directed by Mr. Mehsud were responsible for the assassination of Benazir Bhutto, the opposition leader and former prime minister of Pakistan.

In a measure of the fast moving strength of the jihadists, Mr. Sherpao said the militants’ bases were no longer confined to North and South Waziristan, two districts inside the tribal area that have long been considered training grounds for suicide bombers.

The militants were now spread across the entire tribal region, including the district of Mohmand, which abuts the village of Sherpao and is close to Peshawar, the capital of the North-West Frontier Province, he said.

Three months ago, Mohmand was free of the Taliban, Mr. Sherpao said. Now, he said, the district was being used as a base to strike at the area around his village, and the bigger town of Charsadda where Mr. Sherpao survived a suicide bomb attack at a political rally last April.

In Swat, a scenic area outside of the tribal areas to the north, the Pakistan Army has been fighting the Taliban the last several months. The insurgents had displayed tactical skill, Mr. Sherpao said, by refusing to fight as a group, and instead had blended into the civilian population.

In an interview in the family compound, Mr. Sherpao’s son, Sikander, 31, who is a member of the provincial assembly of the North-West Frontier Province, said the Taliban had expanded easily in the Mohmand district adjacent to their village because there were was no resistance from the authorities there. The Taliban then proceeded to give the local population a sense of quick justice that was denied them by the weak government.

“About four months ago, the Taliban said they were going to arrest the thieves and the gamblers in Mohmand,� said Sikander Sherpao, who holds a business degree from Drake University in Des Moines, and was injured in the suicide attack at the mosque. “When you let them do that, the Taliban feel they have a free hand.�

At the same time, he said, the Taliban had attracted local criminals into their ranks. “I know a lot of car thieves who are now Taliban emirs,� he said.

The Taliban were financing their activities with profits from the duty-free car trade with Afghanistan, and by raiding trailers carrying supplies by road for the United States military in Afghanistan, he said.

Taliban warlords could soon dominate as the North-West Frontier Province disintegrated into chaos, Sikander Sherpao said. “Doomsday scenarios are being discussed, especially the way things have gone in the last three to four months,� he said.

#252 Posted by majumdar,

No majumdar saheb, please don'y use Jihadi either. Jihadi in today's diction is same as terrorist. Please only use the generic term Pak Taliban (and not Paki Taliban either). This will make the discussion purely free of biased terminology.

Regards.

majumdar,

regarding my conspiracy theory isnt it so uncanny how Army won so easily in Swat soon after emergency?

Who says they won? Fazlullah did the same thing as did Mullah Umar when NATO moved in. They didn't fight at all, but retreated into the mountains. Has NATO won in Afghanistan? This is just a tactical withdrawal in the face of heavy artillery used by the Pak army which would have resulted in massive civilian casualties if they had continued to fight pitched battles. Other than that, there's one or the other incident every single day when Fazlullah's people blow up one checkpost or another, or kill a collaborator.

#251 Posted by majumdar,

what exactly does the Kohat Tunnel connect and are there alt. routes if any. From what I cud make out of my Atlas it seems to connect Peshawar to Miranshah, which shud not be so strategic.

The Kohat tunnel is almost two kilometers long through mountains, and it connects Peshawar with the entire hundreds of miles of stretch to Darra, Kohat, Bannu, Dera Ismail Khan and Tank of the NWFP settled areas, and the entire North/South Waziristan agencies. There's only one other other alternate route which goes through two bridges which were blown up day before yesterday.

The direct road from P to Rawalpindi does not pass thru it, does it?

No. Route to Punjab is on the other side of Peshawar which goes through Nowshera and is connected via the Attock bridge. If Peshawar falls to Pakistani Taliban, you can bet the Attock bridge will be attacked, and Pakistan would then lose the entire NWFP.

Zee sahib,

You can replace jihadi in #251 by Pak Taliban if u find jihadi derogatory.

Regards

Zee sahib,

As we have discussed earlier victory of Pak Army does not mean ironclad control over the region but banishment of the jihadis to rural and remote areas. And of course even under such a scenario, jihadis will continue to create havoc even in urban areas and cantts by suicide bombing but enuff to dislodge the existing govt.

Re: the geography I will bow to your superior knowledge but what exactly does the Kohat Tunnel connect and are there alt. routes if any. From what I cud make out of my Atlas it seems to connect Peshawar to Miranshah, which shud not be so strategic. The direct road from P to Rawalpindi does not pass thru it, does it?

Now regarding my conspiracy theory isnt it so uncanny how Army won so easily in Swat soon after emergency?

Regards

#247 Posted by HP,

Thanks HP. Yes my sister is very happy being married to a lowly major.

#246 Posted by majumdar,

Thanks. Just call them Pakistani Taliban. That is a standard term without any bias.

#241 Posted by majumdar,

Swat will be repeated in Kohat.

If Pak army has won in Swat, why is it still under daytime curfew?

Then the Pak Army will swiftly give a thrashing to the havayoons as surely as in Swat.

You obviously do not know the importance of the Kohat tunnel. Right now it is the only connection to Peshawar after two bridges on the other side have been blown which has not been reported. Taliban yesterday tried to blow up the Kohat tunnel but were prevented due to heavy helicopter gunship fire. But in the end, they will.

And what wud be Pak Army's motivation in allowing a temporary victory?

Moot question. Army is not allowing anything. Either's victory will not be temporary.


Swat allowed Mush to declare emergency and fire the judges- Kohat will possibly allow the Mush-Kayani duo to postpone the elections maybe even impose Martial Law. Something which u have alluded to in ur CC thread.

This is totally ridiculous majumdar saheb. It shows just personal bias, not reality. I had not alluded to musharraf orchestrating tribals for the whole thing for personal sustenance, but his giving genuine excuses to the tribals to accelerate and create chaos. Benazir's murder and blaming tribals and then sending in tanks was such an excuse.

"since you insist ... pavocavlry is my brother-in-law."

I am happy for you sister!

What is wrong with Havyoon. You got call them what they are!

Zee sahib,

I dont know the meaning of the word havayoon nor do any I have any respect for the jihadis. But out of respect for YOU, I will stop using the h-word.

Regards

#242
Zee,
Don't pull monkeys out of the hat here! Have you looked at the tribal areas in the map recently? Check out todays Daily times for some insight. How could these criminals control the whole Pakistan is a myth to me.

They all fkers deal in drugs, steal cars and sell illegal arms. You are just making up stories as you go. Buddy there is nothing there it is all a hoax and don't get to much into this non sense that these guys can turn the country over!
Good night. or morning whatever!

#241 Posted by majumdar,

majumdar saheb, firstly kindly stop using this term havayoon which is very derogatory. You may have noticed I have stopped using kanjaroon as well.

Now let me read your post and attempt to answer.

#240 Posted by HP,

Okay HP ... since you insist ... pavocavlry is my brother-in-law.

Khush?

#237 Posted by HP,

The NJorth/Soth Waziristan and Bajaur Agency or Mohmand Agency people do not steal cars, or deal in drugs, or even smuggle. The Khyber Agency people do. Though they do take refuge in their areas and these tribes won't turn away their worst enemies for refuge let alone petty criminals. However if found undesireable by their tribal Jirgas, these are promptly handed over to FC or shot publicly.

See, you know jackshit about the various and different tribals and just shoot off your mouth off like FOX TV.

And yes, these tribals are totally alien to the rest of Pakistani people, but ferociously loyal - still - till they're pushed to the wall and have no choice. In that case Pakistan is as good as finished.

Zee sahib,

I tend to agree with the HP sain-Masadi axis here on the prospects of the havayoons in Pakistan. The havayoons are not beating the Pak Army, the Pak Army are allowing themselves to be "beaten" for underhand reasons. I am willing to bet good money that Swat will be repeated in Kohat. Some victory for havayoons till the Establishments motivation for allowing a havayoon win is satisfied. Then the Pak Army will swiftly give a thrashing to the havayoons as surely as in Swat.

And what wud be Pak Army's motivation in allowing a temporary victory? Swat allowed Mush to declare emergency and fire the judges- Kohat will possibly allow the Mush-Kayani duo to postpone the elections maybe even impose Martial Law. Something which u have alluded to in ur CC thread.

Any thoughts on this angle?

Regards

Zee,
Stop pulling these stunts here we know all about Bangash and Khattaks. In fact, I can produce them on demand here. There is nothing unique that you know about the NWFP and the tribal areas.
So what is your connection with Pavo?

... and Durranis!

HP I have a connection with anyone who knows the difference between the Ahmedzais and the Muhammadzais and the Khattaks and the Bangash!

"You can't know jackshit about them unless you've personally co-habited with them or known them inside their territory and they trust you as one of their own."

So you are saying they are so alien to people in Pakistan that unless the whole Pakistan lives there they would not know that they steal cars, they deal in drugs and they deal in illegal arms trade. What is so strange about them that people have to live there to know about them?

They are certainly not the gift of God to the humanity....What is with you and what is your connection with Pavo?

#234 Posted by HP,

Yes I think that's a good idea. Call him a lowly General, or even a lowly Fauji is better. Don't call him a lowly major. That's an insult.

#232 Posted by HP

What credentials you have?

How many more do you need Saeen? Okay I'll tell you just one more. I have been inside Jamia Hafsa.

Now tell me yours. Thanks.

You need to read his posts before the Lowly Major. Still I don't get it why is he so upset about it. Would he be happy if I call him lowly General? A major is Major he is not some Brigadier or major general!

... #226 contd...

Please read as follows:

You can't know jackshit about them unless you've personally co-habited with them or known them inside their territory and they trust you as one of their own.

So you still wont tell what is your connection with him. I sure do know more people in the tribal then you can even imagine! So don't pull this BS here.

What credentials you have?

#228 Posted by HP,

Yaar he's been writing about his living and traveling inside tribal areas.

#228 Posted by HP,

HP, YOU started it when you called him a 'lowly major' (and continue to do), while he still responded in a gentlemanly manner and called you 'Sir'. Only after that he lost his cool too. The entire FP is witness to that.

#226 Posted by HP,

HP, I have also had an 'intimate' connection with the Mohmand Agency PLUS a solid one with Khyber Agency as well. Though these are not yet in the frey, but will be.

Do you know of a Yousuf Mohmand? He was a cabinet Minister and Chief of the Mohmand tribe. Or Ayub Afridi? Or Anwar Khattak? Yousuf Mohmand was almost family. The latter two were the Khyber agency Pablo Escobar and his commander for international dealings. I have visited the famous 'White House' near Landi Kotal in his helicopter (it has a helipad) where the water faucets are gold-plated.

So, do not challenge my credentials.

The Pakistani tribals are not Bush, nor like any other people I have seen across the world. They are different. You can't know jackshit about them unless you've personally co-habited with them or known them inside their territory.

zee,
Don't lie! no one abused him when he first started posting here. He abused first and then he got some other friends too. Go check his posts.
Btw,
I am still curious about your connections with him. You are rooting for him from the day one. How did you know he lived in the Tribal areas? What is your connection?

btw, Afridi is out!

HP if you weren't abusing him and calling him names, I'm sure he would stay and present his reasoning. As it appears he considers it a waste of time under such hostility.

#223 Posted by zeemax

who are you telling these stories! So we need to know someone who lived in the tribal area. why not we get Mehsud here and talk to us and why not we get Bush to talk to us here.
Are you really this simplistic that you need some one from the tribal areas to know what is happening there?
Sorry buddy this a lame argument and I don't buy it.

What is your connection with him?

I never said he should stop posting but if he wants to post in an open forum, he should have enough thickness in his skin to present his pov. This guy runs away from a discussion like a lomarRy!

What is wrong with him, why can't he discuss any thing?

BTW HP, ana wanted to hear Pavo too (but without the capslock).

#221 Posted by HP,

HP, my connection with him is that he knows and has lived in tribal areas as I have. I know a lot about Ilaqa Ghair because I spent three years in Dera Ismail Khan and Wazirs/Mehsuds were my hostel room-mates. Of-course I've lived for six years in Peshawar on top of that, speak Pushto fluently, and know the settled areas Pashtuns too in and out.

Now you see the connection? It's impossible to know what's happening in Waziristan unless you have personally known the various types of Pashtuns closely, and both Pavo and I do.

#220 Posted by zeemax

Yeah right! Why can't he discuss his conclusions. And why do you think we can't do anything.
This sigh business does not work here. I know enough sobs to pick them in crowd quickly!

Btw, Zee,

what is your connection with him that you are defending him so vigorously? How do you know him so well that you believe in every word he says! I have never seen this behavior from you before!

#218 Posted by HP,

Sigh ... HP, if Pakistan is going to be dismembered, neither you nor me nor Pavo can either accelerate nor stop the process. Pavo is just stating his experience which we would like to know, not to agree or disagree with the conclusions he draws.

I never asked to stop posting! He can post whatever he wants but I have a right to respond and expose the sob!

#217 Posted by zeemax
You are just making up one story after another. This forum is for discussions and we are not here to read the nonsense and not respond to it.
He basically has a Jihadi pov and shows it time and time again. You think we should let that go?
I mean the sob is asking for Pakistan dismemberment and you are encouraging him to write that here and want us to take it just like that.
Do you have blinders on when you read his posts or you have some agenda like him?
I am really suspicious about his motives on this site and they way you and Ijaz are trying to protect him.

He is not gonna come here and write whatever he wants and we would just let that happen and watch him tell us that Sindhi, Punjabi, Baloch and Pathan are not going to fight for their motherland but some criminals with some Grey matter would do that! He is a true fifth columnist!

... further HP, he is not here for arguing or debating. He seems to be here only to state his opinions in the light of his own experience on the ground in those areas, which none of us has and you won't find it in the media either.

Many of us are extremely concerned with the situation in Pakistan and Pavo's views provide a basis to be tested in the light of the actual events which are rapidly progressing towards a certain outcome. We're just trying to gauge what that outcome could be?

Now pipe down Saeen.

#215 Posted by HP,

Yar HP Saeen, if some people want to hear him, even with his caps lock on, why don't you bloody let them?

#213 Posted by zeemax

Stop nursing this idiot! You can very well see that he can't argue and only scream.

Pavo #208,209,210

“THE PAKI FORCES DONT HAVE THE GREY MATTER OR THE MILITARY EFFECTIVENESS TO FIGHT THE NON STATE ACTORS IN PAKISTAN.�

So that is your analysis?
Grey matter? Is that the power of Islam? Or they have some other magic lantern that would suffice for Grey matter?

“THE GREAT DANGER IS NOT PAKISTAN BUT THE FALLOUT AFTER ITS DEMISE.�

Would you care to explain what the fall out would be or this is another hoax you will pull from the topi?

“it would be a great treat if the Americans enter Waziristan.One - this is no Iraq , the terrain is very bad, TWO-their aerial power will not have the great influence that it has in plain terrain .�

You really show that you were just a lowly Major. First, you and your Jihadi friends really do want the US in the tribal areas, don’t they? It will be a treat for you jihadis. Second, do you really think the US generals are as idiot as the Pakistani generals and they would not plan for all the contingencies?

No one can stop you from making absurd predictions but you need to somehow show that the US military planners would not anticipate the terrain issues.

Using caps and screaming at people does not make you arguments stronger, instead they make you look like an idiot that you are!

Pavo,

I have a little story about the frog and the boiling water I like to quote about the type of people who populate this site in the most part.

If you put a frog in boiling water, it will jump out immediately. However if you put it in warm water and keep heating it slowly, it will keep getting used to the heat till the water comes to boil and it will die.

So please do not allow these frogs to derail what you're trying to say.

I'm surprised intelligent interactors like HP and Masadi have joined the frogs and decided to not allow you to continue with your obviously sincere views through name-calling rather than presenting solid arguments in opposition.

Pavo Sahib:

I am glad to took control of this board you have created. HP Mian and Massaddi Mian demonstrate themselves through their vocabulary. I am sad they called and laughed at what they call.

THE GREAT DANGER TO WESTERN CIVILISATION ARE NON STATE ACTORS NOT THE HOPELESS PAKISTANI STATE

THE PAKI ESTABLISHMENT IS TAKING THE AMERICANS FOR A RIDE.

The above two are now being recognized by the world so is the nuclear threat.

Your point on non-state actors is very powerful.

Demise of Pakistan is not what you should think, instead think of the people who live there.

Wow, all this name-calling (typical of pee ke daru hamre Chowkwale among others) and conversation makes me wish I could actually watch all of you drinking scotch, Tharra, or whiskey, while partaking of some myself. . .who likes Irish whiskey around here?! Kulharee?

Pavo, you can still talk, while some are still listening to you. your caps lock is screaming at us. Please tone it down. :)

THE SUMMING UP IS AS FOLLOWING :--

THE PAKI ESTABLISHMENT IS TAKING THE AMERICANS FOR A RIDE.

THE PAKI FORCES DONT HAVE THE GREY MATTER OR THE MILITARY EFFECTIVENESS TO FIGHT THE NON STATE ACTORS IN PAKISTAN.

THE PAKI SOLDIER IS INTERNALLY DIVIDED AND CONFUSED AND HE IS NOT SEEING THE ISLAMISTS AS FOES BUT IS ACTUALLY SYMPATHISING WITH THEM.THIS IS A VERY DANGEROUS TREND.

EVEN IF MUSHARRAF IS NOT THERE THE PAKI GENERALS AS A GROUP AS THE PRESENT CONFIGURATION STANDS ARE ILL SUITED TO HANDLE THE SITUATION.

EVERYTHING IS OUT OF CONTROL AND THERE IS AN IMMENSE CONFUSION OF PRINCIPLE.

THE GREAT DANGER IS NOT PAKISTAN BUT THE FALLOUT AFTER ITS DEMISE.

THE GREAT DANGER TO WESTERN CIVILISATION ARE NON STATE ACTORS NOT THE HOPELESS PAKISTANI STATE.

THE MORE THE PAKI DON QUIXOTES ARE PROVED AS SPINELESS CLOWNS IN WAZIRISTAN THE MORE DANGEROUS THE SITUATION WOULD BECOME.

WARFARE HAS BECOME CHEAP.ITS VETY EASY TO ROCK THE BOAT AND THE NON STATE ACTORS ARE GOOD AT DOING IT.

TODAY THERE IS WARGAMING FOR THE SCENARIO OF A BRIEF CASE CARRIED NUCLEAR DEVICE TO CAUSE HAVOC IN BOMBAY OR DUBAI.

THE FRONT IS NOT CLEAR.THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN FRIEND AND FOE IS NOT CLEAR.

I MUST SAY THAT THERE ARE SOME SELF STYLED KNOW ALLS HERE WHO DONT LIKE MAJORS.THEY LIKE TO BE SERVICED BY GENERALS.I CANNOT SATISFY THEIR VORACIOUS BYZANTINE APPETITES.

it would be a great treat if the Americans enter Waziristan.One - this is no Iraq , the terrain is very bad, TWO-their aerial power will not have the great influence that it has in plain terrain .

in tribal areas , the paki army and the scouts (Frontier Corps) are like mouses running while the tribals are the lazy cat just watching this despicable mouse running

American intelligence has failed and the paki intelligence heavy with pashtoons from settled areas is confined to FC forts

my assessment is that if the americans decide to knock out pakistan , in strategic terms , there will be no resistance in punjab and sindh ,only the pashtuns will be their adversaries and the settled area pashtuns will be as hopeless as the punjabis and sindhis

pakistan's military and political establishment is simply hopeless.this theme is discussed in my article 5 minutes over islamabad .

Masadi, an African American has a hope of becoming the President of the US while your cocksucking brothers are busy killing one another. Why don’t you own up to the fuk your country has become instead of pointing fingers to the so-called US Elite? And more importantly, why don’t you go and ____ yourself? I just borrowed your lingo to talk to you. You joker of a moron, with mediocre education and head up your own ass.

P.S. Don’t worry about replying to my post. I don’t read your bullshyt. The crap you write is the same shyt different day. You should seriously consider getting some serious counseling. You really are a sick person.

Massaddi Mian:

Is tarah, kya aap, apni tehzeeb ya tameez dikhate hain?

Re: # 204

Massaddi Mian:

Who has been spared of your "Go _____, yourself" wrath? Have you said this to your parents, sisters, brothers, friends? Anyone?

What I teach cannot be measured in terms of money, fool. When the parents become interfering, their concern is with grades and jobs, I will tell them to go ___ themselves. That situation hasn't arisen yet but came close once....

Re: # 200

Massaddi Mian:

"...that is why I told them to go __ themselves...."

Do you have respect for the students, and parents who, according to you pay you, or do you tell them "to go __ themselves"?

Re: # 200

Massaddi Mian:

"...that is why I told them to go __ themselves...."

Do you have respect for the students, and parents who, according to you pay you, or do you tell them "to go __ themselves"?

Re: # 200

Massaddi Mian:

Who should fire you for mismanaging knowledge, and being an Islamic Red-Neck?

anil writes "You have no respect for the institution who pays you and gives you an opportunity to teach and excel. "

No I dont have respect for a bunch of American thugs who were fired from their institution for mismanging funds in the US and are now doing the same at this institution, that is why I told them to go __ themselves.

Re: # 197

Massaddi Mian:

Aapka chaprasee, itna bada khitaab.

Re: # 195

Massaddi Mian:

"...."benega" insaan..."

At least you are trying to rhyme. A step toward accepting pluralism and diversity.

Anil mian keep following me around chowk like a chaprasee, I am not interested in your "street peddling"- I don't waste my time reading Hind-lish, the standard teaching medium at the Harvard Business School- too hard for me to grasp...ab maaf karo....