What is Hinduism? A Personal View

Salim # 294
(There is nothing wrong with the words "Allah" and "Hafiz" I used them both a lot and quite separately. But "Khuda Hafiz" was working fine and I just don't like dictators changing our language just to please their foreign masters)

Reminds me of Crown Prince of Jordan who is married to a Pakistani lady. He often travels to Pakistan.

When he heard PIA Airhostess saying `Allah Hafiz', he inquired why it has changed from `Khuda Hafiz'. She replied because it is an Arabic word.

He said that God can understand Persian as well.

Allah is a pre-islamic Arabic word for God/Ishwar.

NHK

#359 Posted by rahul_capri:

Rahul,

How is the retirement scheme in Goa going? :)

1. Elections. Like everywhere else. Though the issue of reservation is bound to crop up. Already, in both Pakistan and India one has around 30% reservation for women. This may be good or bad. A (perhaps unpublished) paper by Ester Duflo (see her web-page MIT Econ.) claims that it has helped development.

2. There are reasons to believe that it may perpetuate local power structures. At least in the short run. But they exist even today, so one cannot be worse off. However, if power in the states were to flow from panchayats, then there is every reason to see electoral competition in the panchayats. This in turn may weaken dominant elites. We have already seen such processes at the state level in several states and it is trues that power in the centre flows through states today. So we may expect the same to happen between panchayats and states.

Re: # 356
even in islamic literature, inner jihad is considered superior to outer jihad.

Ans: What ever Mo had practised is outer jihad ( according to you, something called inner jihad is also there) and that tradition followed. Suddenly, if you try to invent inner jihad, that does not work.

GT:
How do you propose to elect the office bearers of the panchayat? In an autonomous set-up,Don't you think they will derive from the local power structure and enable to perpetuate it?
The thing I like about it is that it will increase civic interaction between everyone.

Definition of Hinduism as BG Tilak gave was " means or ways to salvation are diverse."

What Dost is saying is not to far from it. I tend to agree with it.

Asfand Siddiqui

HP

Militaries cannot win against a determined populace; if seven years of aggression of 37 states on Afghanistan does not prove that then what does. But situation in Pakistan is different than Afghanistan in the sense that Pakistan is not under occupation of a foreign aggression- it is the citizens that have rose up against their own army almost everywhere on the west bank of river Indus (and pressure cooker is about to burst at seams on East bank too). That has been happening for years now and despite Americans spending billions to kill pakistani citizens the situation has only got worst. Baluchistan is a case where militancy has been going on since 50s and military cannot stop it. Military could not stop East pakistan from turning into a foreign country. It is just plain and simple madness to keep doing the same thing while expecting different results. We should give politics a chance. Politics always wins over militancy. A sovereign parliament, an independent judiciary, and an accountable state machinery is the only option we have left short of firing squads and guilotine parks. Army should be sent back to the kennels.

Look, I know people like you are still licking your wounds that your former patron saint USSR suffered but times have changed. I belive that you people at the end of the day would want to live in Pakistan, and whom you are suggesting to kill now very well where you live.

#353

pakistan should go for "inner jihad" NOT "outer jihad"
infact the principle applies to all humanbeings at both individual & collective levels

even in islamic literature, inner jihad is considered superior to outer jihad.

I really like this article. It helped me to understand the coherence of Hinduism with other religions. You highlighted it without hurting any feelings of any religion.

There are some suggestions:
"OM" is more used then "Aum"

Formatting can be improved. Maybe there is some technical mistake or you might have done the formatting in this way by yourself. If you are putting something word to word use italics or you can still rephrase it. The whole bottom part in bold seems not the perfect way to format.

Great Article!!
-Raheel Lakhani

Naqshbandi,

How did u find http://www.themystic.org/ .. this is Hinduism in action. This kind of practice created people like Vivekanand, Sri. Sri. Ravishankar, Swami Chinmayanand, Sarvapalli Radhakrishnan, Pt. Madan Mohan Malviya, Gandhi, Buddha, Saibabas (both) and many saints. If peek in successful Hindu household (Mukesh Ambani for example)you would see this in practice.

For a modern man Patanjali Yoga Sutra and Bhagwad Geeta is real Hinduism. Rituals, icons and idols are for Dharana ie concentration. Islam might have similar things. It has also produced great personalities and yogis. The core might be same as Hinduism.

346 Posted by HP

Pakistan must NOT and should NOT quit the WOT. What Pak can quit and should really quit is following the US line in the war.

Err ... and how does Pakistan do one while not doing the other ???

#350 Posted by harish_hyd,

wasn't it you who not too long ago wanted Chowk to be made a paid site

Sure. But what convinced me what exactly chowk owners wanted was when they put google ads instead. So now when someone says "Gan*oo", google promptly serves up ads for 'Men seeking Men'!

It may please be noted by all researchers and scholars of this board that spellings of cow's urine are "gomutra" and not "gaomutra"

---Thanks

#324 by zeemax

I wish you would say something similar to your ill-informed c/p artists who have nothing better to offer. I would welcome them if they did.

I would, if they were as anguished as you are (or at least seemed to) about Chowk's slide.

And no, I don't want it to become a better place. I have no such inclination. Chowk is a gutter and will remain so because that's what it's owners want it to be.

Zee bhai, wasn't it you who not too long ago wanted Chowk to be made a paid site so only serious interactors stay and the rest are just filtered out?

Re: # 312
In India, Muslims have made a compromise, they are willing to accept a non-sharia criminal law as long as they are allowed to govern their personal lives according to sharia.

Ans: This is kind of freedom provided by Constitution of India to all the groups. Customs vary in different states and regions. So, personal laws are kept different. Marriage is one aspect, which Govt. has no role. It will be good to abolish polygamy and compulsory registration of marriage.

Re: # 312
In India, Muslims have made a compromise, they are willing to accept a non-sharia criminal law as long as they are allowed to govern their personal lives according to sharia.

Ans: This is kind of freedom provided by Constitution of India to all the groups. Customs vary in different states and regions. So, personal laws are kept different. Marriage is one aspect, which Govt. has no role. It will be good to abolish polygamy and compulsory registration of marriage.

Re: # 312
In India, Muslims have made a compromise, they are willing to accept a non-sharia criminal law as long as they are allowed to govern their personal lives according to sharia.

Ans: This is kind of freedom provided by Constitution of India to all the groups. Customs vary in different states and regions. So, personal laws are kept different. Marriage is one aspect, which Govt. has no role. It will be good to abolish polygamy and compulsory registration of marriage.

#340 Posted by Urstruly

Paksistan must NOT and should NOT quit the WOT. What Pak can quit and should really quit is following the US line in the war.

This is a war the will define the future of Pakistan and which way the Pakistani society is headed. Provinding free hands to the Jihadi militants would be commiting national suicide.
What we have to determine whether we need to follow the US line which is often in conflict with Pakistani National interst or create a policy which reflects more the situation in Pakistan.

Unfortunately, with the Pak army at the helm, there are no chances or it is unliekly that we will have a national policy to deal with this issue. The army would always follow the US line. SO in that respect I think the army is acting against the Pakistan national interest and it is pretty much a traitor to Pakistan and the Pakistani people.

We should really be ready deal with the army as we would deal with any traitor or the RAW agent if caught!

Re: # 340
Pakistan must quit the so called WOT....

Ans: Pakistan is fighting its own battle of survival and US is providing arms,ammunition and aid for this. From the midea report, it is evident that Islamists are gaining control of most part of the country. Once, it is fully Islamised, USA can any time bomb it from any of the aircraft carriers in Arabian sea. That option was there with USA long time back (2001). Whatever economic growth Pakistan is seeing is after 9/11/2001; it is result of co-operation with USA on WOT. If Mush had not agreed that time, Pakistan would have been in different postion now (economically dilapilated, bombed by USA/NATO and Islamists controlling most part of it...a complete chaos. I am not sure, whether USA will be able to prevent future doom of Pakistan, but they are trying). IRAQ was much stable country than Pakistan before it was attacked.

##43 ... cont.

"I do not have statistics, but have personally heard of many Muslims, as well as Hindus, being punished."

These punishments are not necessarily for religious offences. But the methods of punishment are the same across offences. I do not know how serious cases like rape etc. are adjudicated.

Dear Khurram,

You set me a difficult task. But I shall oblige with ONE example. Please note that "there is no one rule". Furthermore, I do not posit that there will be no problems. In fact, in the beginning there will be several problems, more than what we have now. But I believe that things will become better exponentially.

Barna is a village in Rajasthan dominated by the Meo "caste/biradiri". They are Muslims. But you have both Hindus and Sikhs in the village. The panchayat there meets whenever it is called. Men dominate the proceedings and women look on from roof-tops. The panchayat has participants from all religions. Disputes are resolved through extensive debates and the panchayat has "sub-councils". Most people are illeterate. There are no rules per se and judgements are highly subjective. Most inter-religious disputes have to do with "marriage/sex" and "disrespect to religious institutions and rituals". Though such cases are rare, the punishment meted out takes the form of banishment from the village/biradiri, fines and at times hookah/pani "bandh" for the family elder. I do not have statistics, but have personally heard of many Muslims, as well as Hindus, being punished. (also see Erin Moore's article in the Journal of American Folklore on Barna). Simple judgements and no blowing up of issues.

The communists in Kerala and Bengal have a totally different way of dealing with inter-religious issues at the panchayat level. The fundamentalists ways, mostly in the cow-belt, are different. Nothing is without conflict. The point is to resolve them locally.

sadly, instead of an intellectual discussion on hindu theology this has descended as usual into the typical braggadacio Indo-Pak slugging match by people--the majority of whom--don't even live in those countries!

If anyone can recommend some good books on the topic i'd be appreciative.

#339 Posted by khurram,

Well Pak army should know better. It must withdraw from its stand on WOT because it's a fake war created as a facade for US imperial interests and everyone knows that. It has no credibility in Pakistan.

And, believe me no one will bomb Pakistan to stone age. That was a bluff (if it was said in the first place which was denied by the ones who're supposed to have said it). The consequences will merely be economic sanctions which Pakistan withstood throughout nineties despite a much weaker external economy than now, and still tested nukes in the face of stiff american opposition.

Someone must have courage. Otherwise civil war and disintegration will be unavoidable.

Re: # 339

Pakistan must quit the so called WOT. If Americans along with 36 other nations cannot defeat Taliban in 7 years then Pakistan kis khait ki mooli hay. The possibility of Taliban taking over a city like Peshawar, Kohat, or Bannu is written on the wall. Just the destruction of bridge at attock will cripple fouj in a devastating way. If that happens fouj would not even be able to protect no garrison, no cantonment on the west bank. Fouj should stop haramkhori and reject the $950 million military aid package, not a single dollar of which can be spent on Pakistani populaion. Fouj may be the uncontested champions of haramkhors and free loaders in Pakistan, but at the end of the day they will have to live in Pakistan. Their generals may escape to bahamas or istanbul at the first hint of a revolution but rest of the fouj still has to live in pakistan. And as it is evident from RA bazar incident yesterday, people know where they live. Fouj must be forced not to bring the situtaion to the point of no return vis a vis people of pakistan for their own good.

zeemax,

Since the Pakistani Taliban support the Afghan Talibans, US makes the Pak Army fight them and they fight back.

So, what can be done to avoid a civil war?

#337 Posted by sattar2,

LoL Euros? So I guess Dollar has 'finally' lost it's reserve currency status! In that case I shall reconsider :~)

zee (#334),

Then perhaps you'll carry “it” out in Afghanistan; word has it that they are offering euros to the families of the momins for their final act.

… and events in Pakistan can turn on a dime. I’ll leave the Rolodex “as is”!

#335 by GT,
"They will have to work something out, won't they?"

Like how? An example of this is what I was looking for earlier.

#333 Posted by khurram:

Thanks for the reference. I do not see the article as a negative. 2001-2008 is a pretty short time, and already the article notes "positives". Furthermore, it suggests more reforms and "corrections". This is a part and parcel of the process. It should not be abandoned.

"How does all of this fit in with religious groups living with each other?"

They will have to work something out, won't they? And importantly, it does not have to be "one rule fits all". Also, groups can learn from the experiences of a larger set of actors.

#330 Posted by sattar2,

Sattar Bhai, welcome Back.

BTW, I believe the payback for Jamia Hafsa has been sufficiently extracted, so I have officially withdrawn my services from the bomber corps! In fact, after Benazir's assassination, I have become a peacenik :)

So kindly update your Rolodex!

(P.S. Since this point is always misunderstood, I will clarify in advance. I TOTALLY support Taliban's war against Nato in Afghanistan and the Pakistani Taliban's support to them, but I do not wish a civil war in Pakistan which I did earlier. The cost of that is just too great)

Re: #328 GT,

How does all of this fit in with religious groups living with each other?

Btw, have you come acros this,
http://www.dawn.com/2008/01/27/top18.htm

Re: # 259

'khuda' is a Persian desination for a deity that smells of Zoroastrian influence, much like in Greek mythological where ancestors became gods and goddesses and were worshipped.

Allah is THE proper name with many attributes. Eli, El, Elah, Elohim, are variations. Even Hallelujah ('praise ye the Lord'] is from Ya-Allah-Hu! Surprised?

The deviant saints obscured things beyond recognition, and instead of worshipping the One who created all, men were fooled into becoming trinitarians, dualists, polytheists etc.

Shanti now.

Re: # 252

Mr. M2,

Do you know what the name Hamid means? Or is it a cover? If it is, drop it then.

Now go sing praises of Laat, Mannat, Uzzah etc. while I pray for some concession for your damned soul.

Shanti.

Urstruly (#327),

… and then there is another kind of hell, right here on earth. It starts with the mindset that … I have nothing to live for; so I’ll blow myself up and take a few infidels with me. Tick, tick, boom.

Look, zeemax here would be happy to pull the string for you. My only suggestion is that you do it when there is no one else around. I hope this is not too much to ask for.

#328 ... cont.

Khurram,

I thought that I might add one more piece of information that is hardly ever discussed in chowk. You may have heard about the naxal movement in parts of Andhra, Bihar, Orissa, Jharkhand and Bengal. Well, it can be said that, they are fighting for a panchayat raj. But who are they fighting against? Landlords? No! The region hardly has big farmers, except for a very few in Telengana and Orissa. Even these guys are more intereseted in selling their lands as the families have moved into cities (and yes, with sons educated in the US who may glance over chowk once in a while). The basic fight is with the "contractors" who have procured licenses to collect "forest products" from these areas (And hence, as if by divine rights bestowed upon them by the govts. they are also involved in illegal mining and land grabbing). These naxals, just like the Satnamis and Vaishnavites of the past, are setting up their own powerful panchayats.

p.s. The Satnami panth was set up by what would today be known as dalits. The Vaishnavites on the other hand, were very educated relative to those in power.

#300 Posted by khurram:

Khurram,

Nice to hear from you after a long time. Hope you have been fine. You have asked me for examples and I have none but ones which are hypothetical. I remember having talked about curricula being regulated by panchayats a long time back in chowk, but cutting and pasting is beyond me. If you are interested in ideas you may choose to read on.

1. I started getting interested in local governance because of government taxes and revenues. You see in India farmers do not pay taxes. The biggest beneficiaries of this are big farmers who are very rich. Plus they get subsidized electricity, water and credit. You will note immediately that electricity, water and credit cannot be controlled at a local level their domains are large. Furthermore, big landowning is geographically concentrated even within districts. Most villages DO NOT HAVE large landlords. So landlords have typically enriched themselves by controlling the whole state. Moving a sizeable proportion of the tax-subsidy-investment policies back to panchayats and municipalities would usher in competition and break the monopolistic clutches of the landlords. I have to quickly add that today in India this monopoly is being challenged by industrialists and that is good. But we need to bring in a larger set of players.

1 a. (I had mentioned this earlier in chowk). As an example of 1, take investment in infrastructure. The federal govt. allocates a chunk and the rest is transferred to the states. In most cases these transfers are tied up to federally sanctioned projects. A part of it is left to the discretion of the states. What is amazing is that the rate of growth of infrastructural spendings is less than the rate of growth of govt. revenues, even when everyone agrees that infrastructure is extremely important for growth! The problem is that the marginal return (in terms of votes) to investment spending is very low given the bureaucracy involved in its disbursement. If such funds can bypass the bureaucracy directly to panchayats then the marginal return would increase! But the problem is that state goverments, under the clutches of the landed gentry, oppose such a move.

1 b. (Another example). A lot of the increase in educational spending is due to the mid-day meals program. Yet, most schools have one or two teachers. They end up cooking this food rather than teaching! Allocations cannot change because of the "one rule has to fit all" policy. Here is a situation where nobody would oppose a change. Yet changes have not come forth because of a small group of "suppliers" in Delhi who have held it hostage inspite of questions regularly being asked in the state assemblies.

2. Given the economic problems highlighted above it seems rational to shift some budgetary policy making back to local governments. In this context, I thought, why not give the panchayats more civil power. I should hasten to add that there is no credible documentation of panchayats EVER having such autonomy, be it under the Mughals or the Brits. I have seen evidence of such powers been TAKEN by the Satnamis from the Muslim/Maratha powers in the Chattisgarh region and by a Vashnavite sect in the North East corner of India just before the advent of the British. I would love to know about more examples. However, these examples might not fit the bill because the groups involved were very homogenous.

Regards.

Re: # 296 SR

I do not see any contradiction in these verses. It only shows that the menu in hell is not large and contains mainly three items i.e. Dhari (Dried throny twigs/grass), puss, and Zaqoom (which is usually compared to Saguaro cactus whose three branches silgouhette like demons in dark).

We also know that hell is described to have different levels; it is quite possible that the patrons at each level get only one menu item.

Another explanation could be that that from the description of it Dhari (dried grass) sound like relatively more delectible than zaqoom and puss. But try feeding a human quorma or roasted chicken three times a day every day for couple of months, I think by second month he will definitely at least yearn to check out the puss or zaqoom just for the change of taste. But the taste of the later too would repulse him back to Dhari. Now put yourself in the shoes of a condemend, facing that situation, would you not say that "There is no goddamned thing to eat here but Dhari". This is what the hell is all about. Wouldn't you try your damndest to avoid that?

=============

Please keep in mind that the three things Dhari, Zaqoom, and puss are the things that are in the realm of Unknown. No one has seen or tasted them. But in order to explain it to humans God must make reference to things that are in our realm of Known. If we find these things so repilsive and disguting in this world just by looking at them, then imagine a world where these are the only food. Oh and don't forget the boiling water, to wash it all down you throat.

why do not = why do

#322 Posted by laddu,

Yaar chup! Go to faithfreedom.org and have an orgasm.

In fact, I have often wondered why do not people like you, hamidm, arjun, mohar11, SR, jayP, nkg, humsab and some others come here at all?

I mean it would be quite pleasurable for you folks to have circle jerks with like-minded people at the forums on faithfreedom, because you scarcely know anything beyond that anyway.

Now Shoo!

#321 Posted by harish_hyd,

I wish you would say something similar to your ill-informed c/p artists who have nothing better to offer. I would welcome them if they did.

And no, I don't want it to become a better place. I have no such inclination. Chowk is a gutter and will remain so because that's what it's owners want it to be.

Hope this helps!

Hinduism is Sanatan Dharma. Dharma is to be practiced at individual level. One can make analogy to the rocket with its boosters. Kama and Artha are the two boosters. But they are fueled and regulated by Natural or Societal Dharma. The journey and the destination is Moksha.

This is a good reflection of Sanatan Dharma in action reflected off a western mind and expressed in western language. http://www.themystic.org/

See how he is expressing Dharana, Dhyan and Samadhi here
http://www.themystic.org/transcendental/index.htm
Idol is for Dharana. For a scientist it could be puzzle obsereved in the nature. For an entrepreneur it could be the product or service he is bringing to the market.

When Societal Dharma is in danger ie when Gurus are butchered in Delhi a Guru (Gobind) is sent with sword in hand. When this societal or natural (ecology) dharma is in bad condition Moksha is not possible for many therefore Avataars appear.

By writing this I cleared my mind.

Re: # 320

Zee Bhai,

Aap to sarvopari hain.

Aapke "Diya al Din" ke saamne hum mushriq kuch bhi nahin keh sakte.

Allahu!!!

#320 by zeemax

Zee bhai, on the one hand you complain Chowk has become a cesspool; OTOH you remain an active contributor to its slide into the gutter. For your complaint to be taken seriously, you need to be above board - this way, you'll only be laughed off as a hypocrite. Sad, but true!

I accept I have contributed my bit to this slide, which is why I don't even try to preach civility. I'm trying to curb this instinct to respond to abuse word for word, and I'd like to think I've succeeded to some extent.

There will be provocations, there will be abuse all around but if you want to really make this a better place, you will have to curb this urge to retaliate.

The alternative is to live with it.

Wow ... I have never seen cockroaches so worked up.

Swarm around cockroaches. Then head for the drains.

laddu ji Maharaj
Pranaam
Great logic in #314. It seems since nature lover does not have any logical arguement, he is now on this trip of diverting the issue.
Keep it up.
regards

Re: # 315
Not a single person in this world follow you but 1.5 billion love and follow prophet of Islam... why..?? think about it..

Ans: Only couple of thousands of people were honoured with Noble, but billions of people smoke tobaco.
So tobaco smoking is reasonable and winning Noble prize is crap!!!!
See the effect of Islam on humanity (similar to tobaco smoking on human health) (Pakistan, Afghanisthan, India, Bangladesh, Sudan...).

Re: # 267 Urstruly,
The Christians in Middle East use "Allah" to refer to God.

Re: # 262
" have asked this one question probably a dozen times, at least, without EVER getting an answer. WHAT political settlement would have been simultaneously satsifactory to both Muslims and Hindus in 1947?".

Kaal Sahib,
I think this question is improperly framed, for the obvious
answer to it is "NONE". Had there been such a settlement, and had it been acceptable to both, it would have been implemented. Is that not self-evident?

A more realistic question to ask is whether there were political settlement(s) possible that could have avoided the partitioning of India? And the answer to that is empatically, "yes there were". The only problem is that the solution acceptable to the Muslims was not acceptable to the Hindus, and vice-versa.

Re # 314:

Laddu..., it is so obvious that You are projecting your own hatred, your own doubts about existence of God and darkness of your own soul on the prophet of Islam...

Not a single person in this world follow you but 1.5 billion love and follow prophet of Islam... why..?? think about it..

Re: # 255

"Being "formless" is just one of the attributes of God. So one may ask question as if God is Absolute, then how can He be so helpless to have form; conversely if God is formless then he cannot be Absolute, since being formless means that God should be constrained by devoid of having form."

'Formlessness' as "attribute" - this is like saying that "Truly Saheb does not exist" means "non-existence" is an attribute. The statement that "God is formless" seen as a subject and predicate statement is wrong. It means that no predicate is good enough to attribute to god- but Mohammad took this concept of God and is infinite attributes to reify HIS OWN personal ego to the level of that Allah.
Now , whatever Mohammad did became the attribute of God. Mohammad was a split personality and created Allah as his alter ego to justify all those murders and rapes ans loots.
He created Allah as Hitchcock's "Psycho" created that stuffed mother in order to justify his own abominations.
Every psychopath amongst muslims uses that dummy Allah to justify his own abominations and criminal actions and intents.
That is the reality of Mohammad's Allah - it is not a 'spiritual' God but a spin of a criminal who created that cult of murder and loot.
Coming to your argument - if God is absolute then what stops him from having a form!!! If he CANNOT take a form then he is not absolute!!! QED

"See the point is that while interacting with humans God must "speak the language" that humans understand."

Such a statement makes us appear as if God is some Alien. God has already implanted the faculties of language and intelligence. These are hard coded and wired in our brains - if God wants to "communicate" then he could implant his directions in the brains and we would bow down to him like robots.


" God is free of human constraints - He never sleeps; He never eats or drinks; He never gets tired; He has no children; He is begotten by none because "He is Absolute". "

Again to imagine the Absolute in the Anthropomorhic representations and experiences of "sleeps", "anger" , "wrath" , "jelous" , "speak" , "wills" is completely wrong. How can an "Absolute" God and that also a "formless" have these anthropomorphic emotions and attribute. Actually, it was Mohammad's reified ego that speaks like the absolute God.

"Absolute" or "Formless" God cannot be even IMAGINED. It cannot be even prayed. It cannot be even thought. Trying to write treatises regarding absolute God is all nonsensical act of an inflated human ego.
It can only be experienced in Samadhi. (what sufis calls as Fanaa).

#309 Posted by slyder,

LoL, Ali Pai, with the competition being these bhindidicks, the alphabetical disadvantage has never been a problem for your humble servant!

GT:

I will try to answer the question you posed.

I do not see any problem of Hindus and Muslims living together under an Islamic rule. Hindus lived and prospered quite well under many centuries of Muslim rule in India. One could even say that Hindus would make for perfect dhimmies because they were allowed to do even those things that were quite abhorrent to a Muslim as long as they were willing to accept a subservient position. And this, to me, is the key. It is a myth to say that all religions are treated as equal under an Islamic rule; the supremacy of Islam is paramount, especially when it comes to relations between Muslims and Non-Muslims. If someone has any doubts, they should see what is happening in the most liberal Islamic state, Malaysia.

I am less certain of what happens if Muslims are not the rulers. In India, Muslims have made a compromise, they are willing to accept a non-sharia criminal law as long as they are allowed to govern their personal lives according to sharia. This compromise seems to have come under severe pressure because more and more Hindus seem to be uncomfortable with this compromise and would want the constitutional provisions of equality of all individuals to override the Muslims' rights to govern their personal lives according to sharia. While the jury is still out on this, I am pessimistic.

And GT, can one be truly liberal and also accept that individual rights should take a second place to group rights? To me, this is the common element in both Islamic laws and Indian constitution.

Re: # 309
Polyandry is practised in some part of North Eastern region, China, Tibbet and Mongolia ( some part and within some tribes).
It should not be bad. At least it does not encourage barbarism. Ant, Bee etc. society is highly disciplined and organised. Where as polygamy (like Islam) encourages barbarism, destruction etc. Polygamy is root of large number of social evil.

In Sanskrit, there was no symbols representing numbers. After the advent of Devnagari/Brahmi, symbols representing number has evolved.

Is there any punishment in Islam for bluffing/telling lie? Or it is treated as common human nature. I see Islam full of bluff/lies, starting with Mo...

Urstruly:

Some corrections on your earlier post.

Hindus do not consider Brahma, Vishnu or Shiv to be avtars; they are eternal. Vishnu alone comes to earth in one form or another (not necessarily human)from time to time - he is supposed to have done so nine times - starting as fish and ending with Buddha - and the final avtar is yet to happen. When on earth, Vishnu is bound by the same rules that apply to the form he takes, whether as fish or as human.

As regards the Absolute, you have used a quranic benchmark to choose and accept from the Hindu literature what you think is valid. This is quite valid from an Islamic viewpoint; in my opinion, this is also valid from a Hindu viewpoint; the difference being that the Hindu viewpoint would also allow as valid someone who thinks that Ram is the human manifestation of God and worshipping him is the same as worshipping God. An individual Hindu can be quite certain about the absolute faith in his deity, it is the system (Religion, if you will) that denies that certitude.

Zee:
Thanks!

Another Hingbooism question: How do you guys manage polyandry? Do you guys draw numbers or just go alphabetically? (Zeemax pai would be the last if he was a Hingboo)

Re: # 305
Please stop Islam bashing. Let us all live in peace.

Ans: Are you serious? Will Islam let people leave in peace?

Re: # 302
This is definitely very ugly thinking. Gujrat situation is worsening. But, similar situation exists in Mumbai,UK, France etc. also.
I don't see similar problem between christians and indians (so called hindus).

Dear Arjun,

Please stop Islam bashing. Let us all live in peace.

For the true nature of the beast please refer to links in #202.
Read all the juicy details.

Then come back to Chowk if you still dare....

Dear Arjun,

Please stop Islam bashing. Let us all live in peace.

For the true nature of the beast please refer to links in #202.
Read all the juicy details.

Then come back to Chowk if you still dare....

=== Interact Filtered ===
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khurram bhai, that's the situation in India, already. This would seem absurd to many but Urstruly is right.

Indian 'secularism' (with Gujrat and such delights) has been possible by the majority Hindus agreeing to craft an almost perfectly Islamic state.

But that is not enough. Over time, Chowdhary Rahmat Ali Plan as suggested by GT may be something that Hindus and Muslims might need to look into.

"I had proposed that they should be able to implement their own "social laws" and even have their own enforcement structure - i.e. police force."

GT, so long as Hindus can create protected but practically autonomous Hindu enclaves within a Muslim dominated state (such as Pakistan), or Muslims can create protected but practically autonomous Muslim enclaves within a Hindu dominated state, separation between Hindus and Muslims as groups, along the lines recommended by Chowdhry Rahmat Ali has been achieved. That should work.

Not what I would recommend for India, but given changing demographics in many parts of India, we may be there pretty soon, whether Hindus and Muslims like it or not. So that's an idea that India and Pakistan might want to pursue.

(Of course, the last sentence is a joke. When it came to understanding and protecting their communal interests Iqbal/Mr. Jinnah were miles ahead of Gandhi/Nehru. Hats off to the former for their clarity of thought on this issue.)

Re: #295 GT, ".... the three dominant religions - Hinduism, Islam and Liberalism..."

Why not have the 3 dominant religious communities (and others) make their own laws as much as possible. Let the State act as a 'community of communities' and restrict itself to spheres where communities have to act together.

I think this problem is best discussed through concrete examples. So, please share some specific examples that you may have in mind.

Urstruly (#293),

It is like the ummah continuously humoring us about “last prophet”. This is what you believe … and I get it. Now can I have the #*%king passport?

(I hope you see the irnoy ...)

#297 Posted by SR:

SR sahib,

Since you are having fun, let me join in. I assert that I can be kind to you without loving you ar being your friend. I do not see any contradiction :)

Addendum to # 296

Re: # 241 Urstruly wrote: ["... So if one part of the religious text ... (says "X") ... and the other ... in the same breath, ...(says "Y")... then obviously either the text has been corrupted or it has never been Divine.

Divine ... has to be simple and non-contrdictory so that the mere mortals, for whom it is meant, could understand it. ..."]

This is another good one:

[QUOTE]
On the one hand, the Quran commands all Muslims to show kindness to their parents, even if they are disbelievers [17:23-24, 31:14-15, 29:8, etc.]. On the other hand, it demands not to show any love or friendship to those who oppose Muhammad, even if they are their parents [9:23, 58:22].
[END QUOTE]

Re: # 241 Urstruly wrote: ["... So if one part of the religious text ... (says "X") ... and the other ... in the same breath, ...(says "Y")... then obviously either the text has been corrupted or it has never been Divine.

Divine ... has to be simple and non-contrdictory so that the mere mortals, for whom it is meant, could understand it. ..."]

Very well said. Exactly my sentiments also.

Now let's take a look at some samples from a critical source:

surely it is biased as all criticism is, by definition... but let us do some private study and contemplate if there is any merit in these claims about the contradictions in Quran.)

[Quote]
The Qur'an makes the following statements regarding the food that unbelievers will have in hell:

No food will there be for them but a bitter Dhari S. 88:6 Y. Ali

Nor hath he any food except the foul pus from the washing of wounds, S. 69:36 Y. Ali

In a footnote, Yusuf Ali gives the following explanation for Dhari:

It is a plant, bitter and thorny, loathsome in smell and appearance, which will neither give fattening nourishment to the body nor in any way satisfy the burning pangs of hunger. ...

Other translators render the term as "bitter thorn-fruit" (Pickthall) "dry, bitter and thorny herbage" (Sher Ali), "cactus thorn" (Arberry), "the foul thorn" (Palmer).

Obviously, both kinds of ‘food’ are chosen to evoke a feeling of horror when thinking about Hell. However, the contradiction is in the double claim that this or that will be the only food, i.e.

No food except Dhari (88:6).
No food except foul pus (69:36).
There is yet another passage that is relevant to this discussion:

Is that the better entertainment or the Tree of Zaqqum?
For We have truly made it (as) a trial for the wrong-doers.
For it is a tree that springs out of the bottom of Hell-Fire:
The shoots of its fruit-stalks are like the heads of devils:
Truly they will eat thereof and fill their bellies therewith.
Then on top of that they will be given a mixture made of boiling water.
Then shall their return be to the (Blazing) Fire. S. 37:62-68 Y. Ali; cf. 56:52

Thus, regarding this one topic alone, the Qur'an contains three contradictions:

"Eating of the tree of Zaqqum" (37:66) contradicts "eating only Dhari" (88:6).
"Eating of the tree of Zaqqum" (37:66) contradicts "eating only foul pus" (69:36).
"Eating only Dhari" (88:6) contradicts "eating only foul pus" (69:36).

[END QUOTE]
Taken from this cursed source:

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/#internal

See many more ... some are a bit frivilous

...SR

PS: Those who live in glass houses should not cast stones at others.

Urstruly:

Thanks for your thoughts. You write:

"This is not possible where society has serious religious leanings."

It has taken me quite sometime to understand this, especially when one (like me) puts a higher priority on democracy vis-a-vis "secularism" as it is today understood or mis-understood.

You see, our religions bring along with it a culture and history. Some of it is good and some bad for what we perceive to be "development". In the 50s and 60s, Mao deceided that most of it was bad for China and so he unleashed the "cultural revolution". Perhaps what we see in China today would not have been possible without this "revolution".

While "development" is important, participation in the process of development and having a say in the process is perhaps equally, if not more, important. Otherwise, there is little to differentiate between humans and machines (or should I say animals). Since South Asians are "religious" per se, people are bound to bring in religious guidance in choosing the path/process of development. In a democracy, such phenomena should not be checked.

However, and here I agree with Kaal, Echo and Zeemax that, the three dominant religions - Hinduism, Islam and Liberalism - in the sub-continent do not intersect to propose a common set of guidance to the process or definition of "development". So what should be done?

Since, the problem is more stark in India let me narrow down my proposal to India. We need empowerment at the local levels - panchayats and municipalities. I had proposed that they should be able to implement their own "social laws" and even have their own enforcement structure - i.e. police force. As pointed out by others, this may not be fully feasible. I agree. But it could at least be used to start the debate.

What are your thoughts?

Regards.

#277 Eklavya {"salim bhai, many of my Lucknowi Shia friends have refused to make the change. :)"}

Kaal Bhayya,
Neither have I. :) There is nothing wrong with the words "Allah" and "Hafiz" I used them both a lot and quite separately. But "Khuda Hafiz" was working fine and I just don't like dictators changing our language just to please their foreign masters.

So, I bid you "Khuda Hafiz" my brother. :)

Re: # 292

"For the remaining, who live in their private enclaves, at either end of the spectrum, this whole theo-cosmological politics is uninterresting and irrelevent."

Why do every atheist or so called agnostic have to write this disclaimer at the end of their attempt at humor. Lets admit it that you atheists are as adamant and dedicated to promote your religious un-beliefs as the rest of us.

Re: # 241 Urstruly wrote: ["... This concept has evolved into about 30 million gods that are currently being worshipped in Hinduism. ..."]

while we have only one absolute God

And that is as it should be. You see, there is a fundamental difference between our cosmic thology and that of those lungi clad, smelly folk across the Radcliff Line.

Theirs is a parliamentary cosmic theology while ours is a presidential one.

Their Big Boy is the prime minister in a parliament full of petty gods. Our Big Daddy, on the other hand, is an absolute and powerful President.

Our God President dissolved parliament and declared martial law 1,400 years ago. He is also the wielder of the Big Fire Stick. His word is absolute law.

Instead of working with and through his parliamentarians and cabinet minister gods as does that PM of gods, the Hindi Big Boy (or is it Girl?), our Big Daddy has His bidding carried out by an army of sycophantic Angel secretaries, whose powers are every bit as much as those of the petty gods of Hing. Four secretary generals head our bureaucracy of angels: Gabriel, Mikhail, Israfeel and Izraeel.

Don't insist on the superiority of one system over the other. Both systems of faith can deliver added value for a certain proportion of the population.

For the remaining, who live in their private enclaves, at either end of the spectrum, this whole theo-cosmological politics is uninterresting and irrelevent.

...SR

Re: # 288 GT

My answer is "yes", given that the "common socio-political" system is that of constitutional parity. This is possible despite historical, colonial, and post-colonial baggage.

The usual guess of a common reader would be that it would be possible under a secular socio-poitical order, of European nature, but the fact of the matter is that an European sesular system would drive a wedge between the communities because secularism by nature does not give religious freedoms but it takes them away from public sphere. This is not possible where society has serious religious leanings. In other words secularism imposes the religion of atheists upon all using state power.

On the other hand Islam proposes a true secular state where religious freedoms are guranteed through constitutional parities by providing autonomous legislature, judiciary, and other institutions that are needed by humans in public sphere.

Before everyone's jaws drop with awe, I must tell everyone reading this that I am not talking about a idealist religious utopia; I am actually talking about a real system that has been in practice until 80 years ago in Ottoman Turkey. The system was called the "Millet system" which provided jews and christians autonomous judiciary and the penal and civil law. The constitution of today's India is almost there with a provision for Mulsim Civil and Inheritence Laws. An autonoumous legislative body would have made it a true Islamic state with a Hindu majority- whatdoya know.

#289 Posted by GT,

Oh I see.

Both Echoboom and Kaal are right. The answer is a clear and unmitigated NO!

Zee:

Please note that echo's answer to my question (just like kaal's) was: NO.

Zee:

My question preceeded the Khuda/Allah discussion. I reproduce my earler post once again:


Dear Dost, Urstruly, Eklavya etc.

While you have dealt with God/Spirituality etc. embodied in Hinduism and Islam, you haven't dealt much with the socio-political structures implied by these two religions.

Can devout Hindus and Muslims "choose" (when faced with no constraints on choice) to live under the same socio-political structure?

#285/6 Posted by GT,

But community laws was not the discussion, was it? I thought it was the significance of the change from Khuda to Allah.

Somewhere else, I had proposed a panchayat raj with a lot of power invested in panchayats, as a possible solution (in lines with echo's thoughts). But this, as pointed out by many, is not without problems.

Zee:

"And what did Echoboom say?"

His take was as follows: (a) No laws should interfere with the laws of each and every community, i.e. community specific laws; (b) the role of the government was to see that no violence occured between the communities.

But the problem is that community laws are hardly community specific. They often regulate on how other communities should act. Herein, is the conflict. To understand this clearly, think of "elites/liberaloons" as a community and you will understand the problem immediately.

(Just so that you do not forget, I belong to the community of liberaloons).

#282 Posted by GT,

And what did Echoboom say?

To our great misfortune echoboom is no longer on Chowk.

"the only person who has somewhat answered this question is echo" .... I should add kaal too.

Zee:

"But people don't have to know how fundamental it is."

No, they would be better off if they did. Unlike kaal, I am a liberal and I believe in compromise. But like kaal, I believe that people would be much better off if ALL knew what they and their "opponents" are compromising.

... the only person who has somewhat answered this question is echo. But he is no longer here, ...or is he?

Zee, when things are done correctly, they happen. When they are done incorrectly, in total ignorance, one is constantly pushing a gigantic boulder uphill.

One should research how much opposition ZAB had when he pronounced Mirzais non-Muslims. I would suspect not much. Nor would you find a Niagara of scholarsly Islamic support in Pakistan or worldwide for declaring them Muslims today.

Now, liberals have their own problems which cannot be fixed easily.

#268 Posted by GT

This question?

I would like to get the opinions of others too. I like you, have come to believe that this is an important (if not fundamental) issue.

Looks like my friends would like to drag me into this subject, despite my kicking and screaming :)

Yes, it is fundamental. But people don't have to know how fundamental it is. They took it up anyway so that's fine.

Now please don't accuse me of being cryptic!

#269 Posted by Eklavya

how very common Khuda was and how deeply ingrained the word was in Muslim (and Hindu) minds, what has happened is not short of miraculous.

Interesting you should have noticed this. Yes, it is indeed miraculous. People latched on to it like fish to water. It is natural. Now you rarely find any people who say 'Khuda Hafiz' in Pakistan. The term is extinct. It is the appeal of just the term 'Allah'.

Remember once we had a conversation about how the words of Qura'an move people even though they don't know what it's saying in Arabic? Just the tones of it work miracles.

Salim is right. Zia introduced the change, but he certainly didn't have to work hard at it. People just made the change themselves, and never went back to 'Khuda Hafiz' even though everyone hates Zia.

#205 hamidumdum2 {"astray from what ?! ..... the sirat-ul-mustaqeem established by an anbsolutist, hateful, arrogant and vengeful god who is so insecure and unsure of his godliness that he has to threaten people with fire and brimstone and castration if they don't 'believe' in him and pay homage to his mserable soul ! "]

Hamidumdum Sahib,
Sirat-ul-Mustaqeem is the straight path, but of course it requires a person who has the balance and sobriety to walk straight even under duress - say, for example, at the direction of the State Trooper to walk in a straight line while touching one's nose with the index finger of the right hand and counting backwards from 100 to 1, using only the odd numbers divisible by 7. :)

salim bhai, many of my Lucknowi Shia friends have refused to make the change. :)

-----------------

Urstruly, IMHO, since you have the correct understanding of Allah, those deviations are probably less important for you than they would be for an unsuspecting novice.

It's like sufism. It's for those who actually know and accept Islam, not for every charasi. :)

But zee,

would you like to answer my question?

#266 Zeemax {"'Rabb ul Aalameen' is the attribute, not the name"}

Zee Bhai,
You are right about this distinction. Rabb, Maalek, Maula, Rahman, and Raheem are all attributes and not THE NAME.

#269, Kaal Bhayya,
In fact, another word we have used is Maalik, meaning Owner or Lord. This is also Arabic as in Maalik-e-Yom-Iddin or Owner of the Day of Judgment.

The distinction between Khuda and Allah did not materialize, at the expense of Khuda, during Zia'S reign in Pakistan, when he invented the non-existent "Allah Haafiz." This was done to please the Saudis who cannot stand anything Persian - thus the change from Persian Gulf to Arabian Gulf, even though there is already an Arabian Sea.

"Khuda Haafiz" was the actual Urdu for "Good bye." Nobody ever used "Allah Haafiz" before Zia's Nizam-e-Mustafa.

Re: # 269

I've seen it but I find it unconvincing and without merit. I still call Him Khuda and my salutations remain Khuda Hafiz etc.

#268 Posted by GT,

Kaal is using Eklavya for some reason which he refuses to tell :) But I second your motion!

Re: # 264 zeemax

I agree. The word Allah is the proper noun, while 99 other names only represent the attributes of the One who is Allah.

I wish there were an etymologist here who could correct me but I think the words, God, Khuda, Bhagwan are also proper nouns.

#252 hamidumdum2 sahib,

Looks like you took my advice about discussing the topic with Urstruly Sahib over a couple of Stroh's. But why did you have to get started so early and at least you could have waited for Urstruly before you became three sheets to the wind. Now all you can think of are the three bint-e-Ilahi - have you seen any pink elephants yet?

Salim bhai, of course! Certainly, for centuries we (that includes Hindus too!) used the two words interchangeably. And zee is perfectly right about the essence argument.

But there is a difference, without which change from Khuda to Allah would never had the momentum and the power it did. Given both you and I know how very common Khuda was and how deeply ingrained the word was in Muslim (and Hindu) minds, what has happened is not short of miraculous.

It has happened because there is a real Islamic argument behind it. I am surprised Urstruly, of all people, is not see it.

Eklavya,

Actually, I like Kaal better and you should revert. In any case, thanks for the clear answer. I would like to get the opinions of others too. I like you, have come to believe that this is an important (if not fundamental) issue.

Re: # 263 Salim

I am inclined to agree. mostly sikhs use this word among non Muslims; probably Guru Nanak picked it up while his stay in Medina for 13 years. Alternatively, it is quite possible that Muslim influence on punjab for about 700 years at least prior to Guru must have cause the word Rabb to enter into Punjabi lexicon.

Eklavya;

What is basis of your disagreement.

Salim_Chauhan,

Correction bro. 'Rabb ul Aalameen' is the attribute, not the name. The name is 'Allah'.

But thanks for mentioning this. It further clarifies my point in #264.

Eklavya #259 {"Urstruly, is Allah exactly the same as Khuda?"}

Kaal Bhayya,
As you know very well yourself, for people whose mother tongue is Urdu, both Khuda and Allah are interchangeable. The first is of Farsi origin while the latter is Arabic. Ya Khuda or Ya Allah are equally used.

Eklavya, Urstruly,

This is just one of the small differences I have with our much respected Urstruly. Allah is not the same as Khuda, or Rabb. Allah cannot be called by any name other than perhaqps the 99 attributes given in Qura'an. As per strict interpretation of Ikhlas, Allah is incomparable, nor likened to anything, hence cannot even be translated in any language.

But then perhaps it is a technical issue and not really material as long as one understands the essence.

#261 Urstruly {"Rabb is Panjabi word for God (probably borrowed from Arabic in turn). "}

Urs,
Not probably borrowed, but definitely borrowed. Rabb is Arabic as in Rabb il Aalameen. :) or Muslim names like Abdur Rabb,

Urstruly, I disagree. Hope we won't accuse all those sincere Muslims who have given up on Khuda in favor of Allah to be fools, or brainwashed.

--------------------

GT, if they really care for their traditions and their beliefs, then they can live together only if they are blind as bats with sonar missing, as Gandhi-Nehru were.

I have asked this one question probably a dozen times, at least, without EVER getting an answer. WHAT political settlement would have been simultaneously satsifactory to both Muslims and Hindus in 1947?

Slightly different topic, but sociopolitical issues are as religious as personal ones - probably more.

-------------

If they are aware of themselves, then Hindus and Muslims, as large groups, can 'live together' only so long as one large group totally, overwhelmingly dominates the other, or both large groups are dominated by a third party.

-------------

There is absolutely no such limitation on individuals, or just a handful of individuals.

Re: # 259