Mehrgarh...The Lost Civilization

A good article mahmood, but irrelevant. If this kind of topics were discussed in the schools, it would have provided a unifying thread to the pak society.

A little like India, it is the ashoka chakra on the flag, it is the mythology of mahabarat, it is the ayurveda, and the pride about the pachatantra stories that has held India together from falling apart on the linguistic lines.

So when will the crecent and star on teh pak flag be replaced by some gandhara statues. Sorry, that will be haram, a human image. So when will be the partition along sindhi and punjabi and tribal lines.

Re: # 1 The people haev the right to decide about theri choices and they decide about the choice of embelms and flags. It was adopted by a parliament and it is theri decison whihc we should respect.

What about when Harijans, low castes and Naxalites have theri own states along with Naga Land , mizoram and Kashmir. this is not isue of Pakisatn this centrifugal tendency plagues all of South Asia.

Iran takes pride in Persepolis. Even at the height of Islamic revolution in the 1980s people protested when mullahs tried to destroy Persepolis.

If Pakistan can see culture and religion in different lights, and not try to find all answers to its problems in some religious text, it can only do good to it.

Re: # 3 Well said there is a saying of Holy Prophet peace be upon him that religious extremsim is to be avoided, but now we haev extremsits of all sorts who profess religion and also those who do,nt profess religion.
It is curse of our times.

mahfari 2,

It is not question of respecting pak choices. I was only pointing out that the contents of this article cannot be in any pak text books, it cannot be something that is discussed by the pak elites like YLH.

It is something to be denied, a little like Abdus Salaam. Many know about him, but no one will dare to talk in public.

Ananth 07,

It is improper to compare pakistan with Iran. Iran has a legacy of a great civilisation and that is why teh people protested. Look at the recent distruction of budha painitngs in pakistan, no one even wrote about it.

For teh people to vlaue something, it should be portrayed as something of value by the society, in the school books. K for kafir education do not leave much option for a new generation other than destroying the budhas and everything non islamic.

"....not try to find all answers to its problems in some religious text..."

"Well said there is a saying of Holy Prophet...."

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With due respect to mahmood mahmood ji, ananth, you are wasting your time trying to discuss values and religion across an unbridgeable gulf.

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mahmood mahmood ji, except for its ideological corruption and interpolations, the article appears to be about a very important topic. Hopefully, you took care to check the veracity of statements about population size etc.

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Still, was there any good reason why you made very strong opening statements about this being a very different civilization than that of Indus Valley, and then, went on to describe everything that shows a continuity?

What in your view makes this such a very different "civilization."

There was a civilization in Pakistan before 700 AD? Vow!! This is news for all of us......

Re: # 5 It is too judgemental opinion and we have many historinas who have written extensively on these subjects and their research is done in independant capacity.
in our text books we have mention of dr, Abdus Salam Sahib and a Centre of Excellence on his Name in Mathematics in Government College University Lahore.

Our ideas have problems no doubt but they exist and are discussed and eductaed peopel have interst in them. Every people have their own undrestanding of past... and yes it is truth we have lack of passion on the subject of histroy and also popualr biases. But this very article is an attempt to know more and discover our roots and place.

Re: # 6 I think dear you are not aware of the facts on ground and how can acts of certian lunatics be a criteria to judge whole of the society?

Is whole indian society like Modi of Gujerat?I think no he is an aberration... if yes then why to equate pakisatn with zeal of a certain few?

Let’s keep this discussion to archeology only.
Between 1979-81, I happened to work with an exploration company around Dera Bughti, Dadar, Sibi and Pirkoh. Just hanging around for adventure, I found fossil shells, star fish and sea horses. Then at Pathar Nullah, where the spring comes out of a cave, I saw wall paintings, that I also mentioned to Tahmad in interacts. Then in 1991-2, I went to Zhob (Old Fort Sandeman) and in the Neeli Kach Valley saw caves with coloured painting. It was then I learnt of the Cro Mognon Man. In Dera Bughti and Mehrgarh, I met a retired Brigadier doing some archeological work at his own.
I shared this information with the archeology department headed by Dr. Dani. A professor there took me to the latest discoveries along Islamabad Highway and specially showed me a mound on which we now find Unity, Faith, and Discipline. As per his assessment these were the oldest human dwellings ever discovered, perhaps even older than Mehrgarh. That when mu passion for Anthro was born.
Searching through the Holy Bible for references to India/Indus/Schinde and found the name Pishon in the Book of Genesis. Some scholars referred to it as Indus while others as Nara/Sarasvati. It was then my quest began.

Ijaz,

Do you have any pictures of paintings?

haideri

The author's assertion about no civilization being older than 4000 BCE has no merit.
The following statement by the author is completely erroneous,

"But when the comparative studies are conducted then we come to know that all these civilization developments except Mehrgarh are not older than 4000 B.C in Middle East , Europe, China, Asia and other parts of world. In town of Jericho there have been found large quantity of grains ranging back to 12000 years old, but there are no settled town found there before about 4000 B.C."

The first known human civilization by modern man was seen in Catal Huyuk, Turkey from around 7500 BCE. Please google it.

Also the Yangtze farmers were farming millet around 9000 BCE.

The author would do well to carefully proofread his papers and carefully research before making absolute statements.

It would also behoove the author to provide references for the assertions he has made in reference to Mehrgarh.

Where are you getting all this information for? Whose ideas are these?

Please provide citations.

Re: # 13 Please read the article again and the crux is that there are scattered evidences to the affect that there were nomadic and pastoral units living in the areas mentioned and Catal Hayuk .. see its pictures of site and compare the artifacst found at Mehrgarh and then compare it with the artifactzs and number of units, theri sophistication level, range adn scope and where was the first dentistry performed? Is there evidence that in Catal Hayuk or other places barley is found, signs of domestication of animals?
Are there signs of cotton made stuff in catal hayuk? is there any sign?
Thsi article does not say that it is the first sign of human activity, yes it does say thta it is the first organized, albeit more civilized and developed area of civilization and it has a consisten and continuous history, which makes it unique and different. Read the details provided by jarrige and then read the statement written in the text of article.

As to yangtze , at the moment I am in China and there official archelogical refernces go back to Xia dynasty which began around 2800BC and before that there are sporadic evidence one of them being symptoms of agriculture 10000 years ago ... but it does not show continuous trend of sustained civilization befor Xia dynasty of 2100 BC and even that is legendary and its archelogical evidence is not conclusive and its yellow Emperor is considered the fore father of Chinese. see the official refrence at http://www.chinaculture.org/gb/en_aboutchina/node_63.htm
and please talk in specific terms and raise pertinent question as to its specific contours and directions. I am sorry as to pictures as I have sent them to editors.any other point please elt me know?

Re: # 14 I have separately sent the pictures and reference portion to eb addeed , but here i reproduce the note portion

1.http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v440/n7085/pdf/440755a.pdf
2. The development of the technique of carbon dating is the most scientific method to gauge the age of the artifacts. It determines the age of old artifacts as per the proportion of carbon in the artifacts
4.Personal observation and experience in Punjab Pakisatn.
Walker and Erlandson 1986.
5.http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v440/n7085/pdf/440755a.pdf
6.This is proven by the examples quoted above in the article
7.http://www.answers.com/Mehrgarh
This is the first urban civilization of the world see
8.http://www.harappa.com/indus/indus4.html
9.http://varnam.org/history/2004/1 0/mehrgarh.php
10.http://www.harappa.com/script/maha1.html