Pakistan's Universities - Problems and Solutions

We need to produce more Kasuris, who in turn, will give the uneducated more Beaconhouse schools, higher fees, tons of A-scorers, and droves of escape artists. Here, they only have brains that willingly let the best brains drain away. What a country brown-sahib!

Newspapers feed government lies anyway; we shall see.

Peace.

We should not be surprised when a bureaucrat from the World Bank writes good reports about another bureaucratic institution such as the HEC. Then, throw in this mix the bureaucrats of the military government, and this becomes a rangeela naach of the bureaucrats.

Institutions take time to build. You can't build educational institutions overnight just because you envy your neighbor's educational institutions and are prepared to throw money at the problem.

Pakis, of all people, should know that. They've been investing for a long time in their IITs(institutes of islamic terrorism aka madrassahs)...The result is obvious. Just like India's IIT grads are making their mark all over the world, Paki IIT grads i.e. the madrassah graduates are making their mark by being busted for terrorism in American ,spain, england, france, australia and canada.

How can you expect universities to produce quality students if there's problem with the schooling?

And regarding that Univ. By french - Speechless
The whole system is messed up.

Atta Ur Rehman with his cronies is selling this lie as Pakistan army selling jihad to make money. Atta Ur Rehman in early 2001 sent returned ticket and hotel and other expenses to his girl friend in Mountain View California to participate in a science conference in Islamabad. The funny thing is the poor babe does not know English so she takes a helper with her in American grocery stores. And her husband was also invited as an expert to the conference. Not only this some engineers copied satellite imaging and other papers and printed a journal and got promoted. I believe the students should be given practical training to solve the society problem. I would prefer to train a student how to slaughter a chicken hygienically than ask him/her to write a paper that has no relevance to our problems.

It is the 5th columnists like Hoodbhoy who have been paving the way for a privitized schooling system with no or minimal state supervision, as directed by his US and European masters. The idea was that a privitized elementray education system will be produce non-ideological vocational drones who would be non-questioning cogs in the wheel of capatilism. The corrupt foujis and their ideological mentors like hoodbhoy and ataur rehman have totally fukked up the elementary education of this land. I do not think there is any hope of its recovery - unless of course if there is an Ayatullah sadiq khalkhali and his guillotine factory. I think we should say the last rites of education system in pakistan... inna lillahe wa inna ilaihe rajeoon.

Eductaion reform should start at primary/secondary level and then it should reach to higher level. It is better to bring back the expertriate fellow citizens than foreign experts to teach in local universities.
Education reforms takes time. China has started that long back. So, if you are trying to emulate China, then please keep patience. Only if, the nation is thoroughly motivated, then only the miracle can happen (turn around within 10 years). Vietnam is nice example of that.But ground situation in Pakistan is something different.
Regarding Techinical/Management institute, without good Industry you can not build good institues. They are complement to each other.
Regarding IITs ( in India). They are excellent graduate schools. But, as per as post graduate study is concerned, most of the people depend upon US universities. The cream of India carries out higher studies in USA/UK/Australia etc... Bring back those who have completed higher study in USA. USA is nice friend of Pakistan. They will definitely help ( Unlike India in past. I can remember, for Microwave Lab in our college, the professor used to get scared to hand over the equipment to the students (in 1990s). The equipment was very costly. It was imported from USA. Furthermore, this equipment can be used for defence purposes, so, it was very difficult to get permission from US).
Here in my native state ( West Bengal), I see regular revision of syllabus of seciondary and higher secondary curriculum ( Mathematics, Physics, Chemistry, Biology, English etc...).

#7 Posted by nkg on January 27, 2008 7:02:21 pm


They are excellent graduate schools. But, as per as post graduate study is concerned, most of the people depend upon US universities.


IIT grads don't come to US universities for the education...they come for the job openings in the US after their graduations...most IIT grads sail through post-grad.

Re: # 8
Are you sure? At least upto let 1990s, the Technical Education situation was like that...
For post graduate study and research 1st choice would be MIT or other US technical schools. After completion, people used to join Motorola, Intel, Compaq, IBM , GM ,Microsoft,Oracle,NASA...
If people fail to get admission in US universities (low GRE score or financial assistance problem), people used to study M.Tech in IITs. Most of the IIT M.Techs are from local Engineering Colleges/R E Cs. The IIT grads study M.Tech in IITs are just preparing for their UPSC exams...
As per quality of research and advanced study is concern, IITs were far behind their US counterparts.
IISc ( Banglore) is the only institution in India, which focusses primarily on Research and is almost at par with EU/USA standard.
Whatever Vinod Khosla, Arun Sarin, Vymoesh Joshi etc... completed their Masters in US universities.

Re: # 8 Arjun you admit Indians are not after knowledge but just dirty money ? and like to be servant to white cream colored people ?
Please give straight answers. No crude art of cut paste appreciated. Just yes or no
Thanks

Re: # 6 Aitullah Khakali = he was very radical and called hanging judge of Iran. Many times executions were carried out and then trial ( A titled book describing excess of horrible "revolutons" Zeemax should read Darkness at noon by A.Kostrler, authoer of Yogi and commissor)
There was another mad aytullah rigo or something like that he even hanged and killed "shah's" horse.
Zeemax is just getting too excited to use his "G" machine.

Re: # 10
Dirty money comes from different way ...
Do you know the competetion you need to face to get admitted in Graduate program in IITs? I don't think, it is money alone, that motivate educated people. These US companies provide excellent working environment and opportunity to learn and execute your innovation...
Most of it is job satisfaction...

Re: # 3
Mr. Arjun,

I agree 'institutions take time to build' but the rest of your comments don't belong here.

There are fundamentalist-terrorists in many countries; let's try and control our own sides first.

Please don't parot what has become fashionable all over the globe. These same madrassah simpletons were initially Mujahids, then Taliban, and now condemned to being terrorists. Who sponsored them; certainly not Islam?

Shanti now.

While arjun is right to some extent, quite a few IITians come here with genuine interest in higher education and research. They want to do intellectually challenging work and of course, make money as well. Some people are just interested in getting a M.S. and jumping into the job market, but that is an individual preference....different strokes for different folks...

Re: # 14
If you are interested in money alone, then do a somewhat decent graduation and go to gulf countries...Quality of life may not be good, but amount of money is comparable to USA...
Mr. Ahmed Madani, this is what we consider dirty money....
Working in R & D section of Tech Giants like GE, Boeing, NASA, Microsoft, Apple, Intel, HP, IBM, Google is not dirty money....

Re: # 13
Please don't parot what has become fashionable all over the globe. These same madrassah simpletons were initially Mujahids, then Taliban, and now condemned to being terrorists. Who sponsored them; certainly not Islam?

Ans: Again denying the fact. If Islam is not the reason, then why USA will use Islam to foster terrorism using Islamic institutions (Mosques and Madrassehs)?

Re: # 15

There is nothing like dirty money till you make it within the precincts of law. Afterall, the guy who has had a 'decent graduation' too works for the money, right?

Money out of R&D or a 9-5 job is no different.

Dunno, if quality of life motivates people in wild life studies, photography etc...

The European varsities are in dire need of funds and hence actively soliciting foreign students. This could be the same with the american universities. Rather than spending to build institutions from scratch, why should not the Pakistanis request the western varsities provide education for their students. They could spend the money allotted for higher education towards their fees till a critical mass is reached.

Once you attain the critical mass of intellectual capital, you can always build your own institutions.

The problem with us is, we have not understood the importance of students making mistakes, getting concepts wrong etc...We need everything touchwood and never let the student err and research on what went wrong. His scoring in the exams are the only indicators that would decide the student's fate and this slowly killed the adventurism in the students and led to this decay.

Re: # 17
Money out of R&D
Ans:
This is personal feeling. When you do something, which changes life of millions of people and offers you job satisfaction, it is definitely not dirty money.
People go to gulf for the sake of money only, not for some good quality work or learning.
I had interacted with a person (he is an IITian), who had moved from technical space to management space. When he was telling that he was part of ARPANET project (INTERNET project), I was feeling the sentiment (I was telling about Ticket Reservation Project of Indian Railway).

nkg,

You are far removed from realities. People go to gulf for the sake of money because it will help in their
1. Children's education
2. Marriage
3. Medicare etc...

#13 Posted by tahir on January 27, 2008 9:19:12 pm


There are fundamentalist-terrorists in many countries; let's try and control our own sides first.


Really? how many terrorists from india are in gitmo? how many from the land of the pure?

hardly a week goes by without a terrorist from you-know-where being busted somewhere around the globe..

it's not a coincidence...while india was busy building it's IITs, you all were busy building your jihadi training factories to produce jihadis for your strategic wet dreams



Who sponsored them; certainly not Islam?


You sponsored them..your army and your government...it's your creation...


spare us the platitudes..

#10 Posted by ahmedmadani on January 27, 2008 8:20:05 pm


Arjun you admit Indians are not after knowledge but just dirty money ?


it's not an either or thing..you need knowledge to make money..I'm just disputing the knowledge gained from a masters course...

Most Indian grads, IIT or otherwise, breeze through the masters courses...frankly, unless you do a phd, you can't really say you gained knowledge...

so while the pursuit of money and a career might be anathema to those of the jihadi persuasion i.e. pakis, it's a perfectly legitimate goal...money through knowledge..

Re: # 3

Arjun! Tell me then how come Pakistani scientists or engineers could build Nukes, Missiles, etc.? Is it possible to build them without excellant content in graduates of Pak. Universities.?

Kamath

#23 Posted by Kamath on January 28, 2008 5:49:41 am

It's simple..they didn't. Their missiles were built by the chinese and north koreans..pakis just painted them over..nuclear bombs aren't exactly cutting edge technology.


ask yourself: if the pakis are so good at the missile stuff, why haven't they launched a satellite..why are they reduced to renting out 3rd hand hughes POS satellites and calling them paksat?

#5 Nangapir
Plz tell us more - fill in the juicy bits
whats her name - nationality? How does Dr. Atta know her, etc etc

Re: # 5 "I believe the students should be given practical training to solve the society problem. I would prefer to train a student how to slaughter a chicken hygienically than ask him/her to write a paper that has no relevance to our problems."


That is a very patronising and lop-sided view nangapir - you need a healthy mix for the progress.

Re: # 23 Posted by Kamath on January 28, 2008 5:49:41 am

Kamath sahib,

[how come Pakistani scientists or engineers could build Nukes, Missiles, etc.?] By stealing and chor bazaari. Is that in your equation of excellence?

bubba,

Don't knock chor bazaari; this is how most corporations - IBMs and Intels of the world, function. Knowing what to steal and how to steal it is genuine talent. Don't knock it till you've tried it ...

#28 Posted by sattar2 on January 28, 2008 1:29:56 pm

what has IBM stolen? or intel for that matter?

Re: # 23
Nuke technology in both India and Pakistan are from Western Countries. Indian nuke has its origin in Russia. Paki is from Canada and Sweeden. A Q Khan, who stolen the technology from Western Countries was covetedly ignored by USA.
Regarding defence technology, India is still trying acquire some technology ( LCA, Kaveri Engine, GSLV etc...). Entire Pakistani (so called) technology is from China and North Korea, who in turn has got it from Russia.
A country which can not produce a decent car can not indegenously develop sophisticated technology (whatever you claim).

Re: # 24
I think this is core of Islam. Steal from somebody and claim as owner of it.
Entire Indian mathematics, they claim their own.
Trigonometry, Number System, Grammar,Beejaganita ( which is now known as Alzebra), various forms of equiations and problem solving methods.

#31 Posted by nkg on January 28, 2008 8:08:24 pm

Muslims, a long long time ago, did contribute a lot. Some mo abu-whatever masadi posted about took knowledge from india to europe..all that is commendable...but masadi claims he invented algebra and things that were of indian origin, like the place value system and zero, were actually insignificant..which is funny considering the book he wrote and took to the west was called the hindu numeric system or something like that.

My dear Indian Crack Team,

Please read about dude in question on your own website.
http://www.indopedia.org/Al-Khwarizmi.html

haideri

Also search for

Alhazen
Geber
Ibn Sina
Al-Biruni
Ibn Rushd
Al-Battani
Al-Farghani

on either Wikipedia or Indopedia

haideri

Baysharmo,

Kissay Baysharam Noo Kissay Banday Aakhiya....Teri Bund Tay Boota Ugyaa....Baysharam Aakhiya Chalo Changa Aay, Chanvaan Bavaan Gaa

Re: # 33

He also made major contributions to the fields of algebra, trigonometry, astronomy/astrology, geography and cartography. His systematic and logical approach to solving linear and quadratic equations gave shape to the discipline of algebra, a word that is derived from the name of his 830 book on the subject, Hisab al-jabr wa al-muqabala (حساب الجبر و المقابلة).

Ans: Quadratic and other similar equations originated in India. Sridharacharya is father of quadratic equation.So, the information here is not correct.

Pervez,

I wish you all the best for your tireless efforts to improve Pakistan. But the system is rotten at the core.

Mushy dismisses a few judges, appoints new ones who over turn all of the earlier judgements. Is there something called precedence rules, jurisprudence in Pak legal system.

200 soldiers led by a colonel surrenders to a few jihadis. The military negotiates and gets their release. Is there any notion of valor in the pak army.

Wheat production is exaggerated, wheat is exported and now there is shortage. T%hen there is the latest, industrial production is exagerated. No one can believe any numbers.

Last week professor and head of department of Punjab uni is caught for plagiarism.

Bhutto is shot dead and the president says she killed herself by banging on a car part.

Pervez, in such a society is it possible to have any scientific enquiry.

Wish you the best.

IN an interview with the Wall Street Journal, President Pervez Musharraf said: “Please differentiate Pakistan from banana republics” where a lowly colonel can take over the state. “These things don’t happen in Pakistan” (Jan 25).
////////////////

Pakistan has teh same approach regarding research, it is not the lowly student who plagiarises, it is teh professors who are doing it to get more money. In pakistan there are no banana universities, they are only in banana republics.

Re: # 37 This problem of management.
In univ. there is too much pressure on professor here either publish or perish. Management should reward research but smae time reward for good teaching, interest in students.Overemphesis on research and publication in foren leads to such things in desperation as promotions or visiting foren to present paper etc. Management needs to think as they should produce good people not hope for einstein etc or like jews they are more talanted in brain dept than all people of des.

#33 Posted by haideri on January 28, 2008 9:13:47 pm

goatbrain: we've been through this before...like I told masadi, the muslims from a long long time ago were interested in learning stuff and spreading knowledge...like the place value system they learn from india...that's a very good thing

In fact, Al-Khwarizmi's book was called "On the Calculation with Hindu Numerals"

the muslims of today only share knowledge of suicide vest and car bomb making techniques.


now get a clue...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Hindu-Arabic_numeral_syst em

An early decimal system was clearly in use by the inhabitants of the Indus valley civilization by 3000 BC. Excavations at both Harappa and Mohenjo Daro reveal decimal weights belonging to "two series both being decimal in nature with each decimal number multiplied and divided by two, giving for the main series ratios of 0.05, 0.1, 0.2, 0.5, 1, 2, 5, 10, 20, 50, 100, 200, and 500."[3] Also, marked rulers at Lodhar reveal gradations of 1.32 inches (3.35 centimetres), ten of which are 13.2 inches, possibly something akin to a "foot" (similar measures exist in other parts of Asia and beyond). Markings on these and other texts reveal a number system with symbols for the numbers one through nine, and separate symbols for 10, 20, 100; thus the decimal system is highly developed though place-value is not used.

Linguistic comparison among Indo-European languages (ca. 3000 BC), shows a decimal enumeration system [4]. In early Vedic texts, composed between 1500 BC and 800 BC, we find Sanskrit number words not only for counting numbers in very large ranges, ranging up to 1019, with some puranas referring to numbers as large as 1062[5].

Historians trace modern numerals in most languages to the Brahmi numerals, which were in use around the middle of the third century BC.[6] The place value system, however, evolved later. The Brahmi numerals have been found in inscriptions in caves and on coins in regions near Pune, Mumbai, and Uttar Pradesh. These numerals (with slight variations) were in use over quite a long time span up to the 4th century AD[6].

There is indirect evidence that the Indians developed a positional number system as early as the first century CE[6]. The Bakhshali manuscript (c. 3d c. BCE) uses a place value system with a dot to denote the zero, which is called shunya-sthAna, "empty-place", and the same symbol is also used in algebraic expressions for the unknown (as in the canonical x in modern algebra). However, the date of the Bakhshali manuscript is hard to establish, and has been the subject of considerable debate. The oldest dated Indian document showing use of the modern place value form is a legal document dated 346 in the Chhedi calendar, which translates to 594 CE[6]. While some historians have claimed that the date on this document was a later forgery, it is not clear what might have motivated it, and it is generally accepted that enumeration using the place-value system was in common use in India by the end of the 6th century. [7]. Indian books dated to this period are able to denote numbers in the hundred thousands using a place value system. [8] Many other inscriptions have been found which are dated and make use of the place-value system for either the date or some other numbers within the text [6], although some historians claim these to also be forgeries.

Re: # 40

Nobody is denying the importance of zero and contribution of Hindus. The problem is you are suffering from psychological blindness. And here you are going overboard
"An early decimal system was clearly in use by the inhabitants of the Indus valley civilization by 3000 BC"

Did you get a chance to search for?

Alhazen
Geber
Ibn Sina
Al-Biruni
Ibn Rushd
Al-Battani
Al-Farghani

haideri

Re #41 Haideri, what have any of these Arabs have to do with Pakistanis or Indians? Shouldn’t you be showing pride in your own heritage for inventing zero? One thing is for sure that before Al Gore invented the internet, none of these Arabs were known of any Pakistani. Now go and google Pakistani DNA, and search for all your ancestors from India.

Professor’s essay is way too ambitious. What Pakistan needs is not number of publication or higher educational institutes, but a solid elementary and secondary education for all. It’s hard to produce world-class scientists from a crumbling and sorryass elementary school system of Pakistan. A country with less than 30% literacy rate shouldn’t be worried about number of Publications, but more basic needs. In addition, Islamiat has got to go, in the dumpster.

Re: # 42

Kulharee,
I am a Kizilbash and a Persian. Many of the guys mentioned in my reply are Persians. And I agree with rest of your Post.

haideri

Getting people to do research is somewhat difficult if there is a lack of interest. For, 70% of "good research" has to do with the formulation of a good question. Without interest, comming up with a question is difficult. However, it is relatively easy to teach them how to solve (simple variants) of well known problems.

I do not know about Pakistan, but in India today there is a tremendous demand (also generated from other parts of the world) for problem solving, from management to engineering to coding. As a result supply is appropriately channeled. Of course there is that 0.5% of geniuses (not only in India, but accross the world) who will do what they want to do and at times it happens to be research in sciences otherwise you see them in literature, music etc etc.

In India there is this notion (amongst politicians and pundits) that we have to encourage basic research, we have to beat China etc. At times it makes me laugh. My colleagues in the Indian Institute of Science do their best to discourage PhD applicants to get into research. Here is how it goes: "You are a very smart guy, why do you want to work on complex dynamics"; "In two years time you will see your friends earn 50 times what you can ever hope to earn"; If you leave the program half-way you will be no-where" etc. Of course, this is a screening device. But it also lays bare the fact that the life of a researcher in India is difficult. That is because there is no demand for them. After all, even Hoodbhoy is in demand basically for his political commentary.

Re #44 - That’s so spot on GT Sahib. My Professor, who wrote on Indo-Pak industrial base, concluded that Pak and India can do without theoretical scientists, what they need is more resourceful ones. What good is a Nobel Prize without access to clean drinking water.

#44 continued....

Apart from finances, research can be a very frustrating experience. Minds with great potential often suffer when their research "fail", i.e. they are not able to come up with the proper theory or a small snag in their experiments lead to their result being discarded or they are beaten in the "race" etc. Things are getting very very difficult at the frontiers of science. There are many more failures now that even 15 years ago. Add to it the greater emphasis put on experimental evidence and hence more resources, it is but natural for basic research to die out in third-world countries. Of course, dictatorial regimes like those in China can put forth these huge funds without an iota of consideration for the best use of these funds. But I do not see the market allocate scarce resources for such use in countries like India. Exceptions, of course, exist (say in the field of bio-technology where the funds are market generated ... the IBM lab in IIT Delhi is more "applied" than "basic").

#45 Posted by Kulharee:

I agree fully. You cannot just look at "education" in isolation. Most state universities in the US were set up to boost agriculture! No one seems to be paying attention to agricultural universities in India, though they exist in each and every state (I must say that rural development is gradually becomming hotter for students in IIMs ... of all places). But the basic point is that we Indians (i.e. those who can eat and wear yellow shoes and therefore "count" in society)are essentially interested in Bollywood, Ambanis and Tatas and cricket. As long as glitz is provided by these sectors we are happy and content. Baki sab jaye tel lene ....

Cont.... "Science in India"

This is from todays Hindu:

"Bangalore: “Interest in science, as we see it, is going down, with most people going for engineering and technology-related fields. They fail to realise that basic science is the mother of all such technology,” said K.N. Shankara, Director, ISRO Satellite Centre, Bangalore, speaking at a workshop on “Indian Odyssey in Space.”"

Mother of all technology! Well, so what? Does it allow me to raise a family who I can take for a vacation once a year? These guys like Shankara should be put behind bars. I remember Pres. Kalam once ask why should salaries be raised for teachers ... they should simply be in the profession because it is "noble". One should really ask these technocrats, who pass off as "scientists" in India, to STFU or become management gurus in the US like C.K. Prahalad .... bloody idiots.

Re: # 47

The only thing that used to motivate students, to take up agri courses, was the lure of a government job. Needless to say that the agriculture officers never visit the fields. They don't even try to learn from the farmers. Selling the subsidized govt seeds, pesticides and fertilizers to the local shops, is the only thing they have mastered.

The smart crooks form a syndicate and make sure that the odd genuine learner is made obsolete. (Surprisingly I see this trait more pronounced in the americans)

The agriculture officers unashamedly market the chemical fertilizers of the private players. They increased the fertilizer and pesticide recommendations multi-folds than what was needed. As a result the soil quality degraded which resulted in wiping out the organic agents and thus the production. These AOs can also be credited for the farmers' suicide.

Many farmers, of late, have started seeking knowledge and are using their fields as labs.

My dad, an engineer who resigned his government job, is one among them.

Re: # 48 GT that is very true...a friend of mine a professor in IITB has had the same problem....even after all these years of toil they man cannot afford a decent flat in Mumbai, let alone a holiday his kids afford themselves these days in places like Kerala.

But here is the rub the friend is not at all unhappy - he is not in it for the money - for him the search for the solution of a problem (and coincidently he was also a complex dynamics man) was a drug and pursuit of knowledge itself was the goal.

Even in the west, the people who do the real work are these people who live lives of an ascetic and there are many like them. The Negroponte's of this world are few. The main difference is that in the west you can have a decent house in a decent location and atleast dream of a decent car and the odd holiday.

Re: # 48 Also it is true re:science. I know the the aec are recruiting engineers and training them in their facilities to do pure science work. For they find pure scientists if available lack the ability of the common engineer.

It is sometime strange to find that a metallurgist is working as a physicist, and a chemical engineer (from VJTI) as Chemist in many critical govt labs.

GT given the trajectories of India and China (and seeing your comments re:china), I was wondering if you give us an idea of where things will stand in a few years time from now (say using 10 year windows (so 10, 20, 30, 50 years from now)) - in terms of education and science and research and development.

Here is an interesting point to note - often forgotten the steam engine in times was a device which the science of that time said it could be done. Infact the engine's basics principles were explained many years after its invention!

#50 Posted by iron_mask:

No, don't get me wrong. People like your friend are not uncommon. But I am talking trends here. The average quality of research/teaching is falling because researchers/teachers are badly paid and research is becomming an expensive business.

It is a bit unfair to romanticize "research", "knowledge" etc. I am in the field and I know what wives and kids of Indian academics have to go through even when the academic is blissfully conducting research (which again is not generally true).

As far as China and India are concerned, I really do not know .... and maybe I do not care much too.

#41 Posted by haideri on January 29, 2008 5:38:36 am


Nobody is denying the importance of zero and contribution of Hindus.


Umm...you offered , as an example of islamic contribution to algebra and whatnot, someone whose book was called "On the Calculation with Hindu Numerals"



And here you are going overboard



Umm..overboard for quoting wikipedia? I take it reality and you aren't on good terms...

let me clue you in on a little secret...more than the zero, it was the place value system that forms the basis of everything..the zero was an invention to get around the problems in a place value system without one. in fact, all modern computing is based on place value systems....binary, hex, octal etc.

p.s. you miss the point by a mile...while the muslims of the past were doing great things by sharing and developing knowledge, the muslims of today are only sharing the knowledge of making suicide bomb vests...

It's heartless to spend Rs. 1000+ crores on Moon Mission when there are thousands of villages without safe drinking water. India's lunacy knows no bounds.

There are dozens of research instts in India, which dont produce any research of global standards.

There seem to be any linkage btw research instts and policy makers at least. For eg. there is this Central Road Research Institute (CRRI)but if we look @ the quality of Indian roads it reminds us of hell & CRRI seem to be oblivious of the ground situation. They dont care abt the quality of roads or they are busy going to US for a seminar or making bills for further grants from the Union govt.

Less said the better abt the research in India (it's good that there's a growing disinterest in research).

Re: # 54
He wrote two books. You are not going to mention the second book because it does not serve your purpose.

1) Kitab al-Jama wal-Tafreeq bil Hisab al-Hindi (+ - using Hindu numerals)

2) Al-Maqala fi Hisab-al Jabr wa-al-Muqabilah (Algebra)

Each time you say Algorithm or Algebra you are talking about my man Khwarizmi.


haideri

Nice article prof hboy.

I think you fundamentally differ from approach of HEC by believing more in bottom up approach rather than top down. I liked your idea of teacher training and using wisdom more than money.

But at times, it also seems like you have a personal prejudice against HEC or its personnel.

Re: # 41

All this talk about "muslim" contribution to science is nonsense.

Newton himself walked on the shoulders of other giants. Any one with an understanding of the history of sciences would know that there is a progression of scientific thoughts - almost like Thomas Kuhn's "scientific programs' . So when the idoators' scientific program reaches maturity and the momeens descend upon them - kill them and convert a good number of them- the scientific program becomes 'muslim'.

And Islamists take over these existing scientific programs and call the 'muslim contribution'. This is laughable, that bedoiun population loots civilized world and abduct their scientists and then claim the slave contribution to be their own.

It is like the Americans appropriating the black music as 'their jazz'. It is like some Saudi Arabic sheikh inviting other countries to set up R&D Centres and then calling the research from those R&D centres as "Islamic" contribution to the modern science and technology.

Lahol!!!!

#58 "Newton himself walked on the shoulders of other giants."

Those were the Jolly Green Giants. And we all know that the Green color is the muslim color. So those were Jolly Muslim Giants.

Arjun, let's be a little accurate there. There was nothing 'Hindu' about those numerals in any religious sense. The number system was a product of the Indian thought, which could be described as 'Hindu' only in geographical terms.

#60 Posted by Eklavya on January 29, 2008 6:36:13 pm

and the algebra thing that haideri claims mo abu-whateva invented is "islamic" because the numbers always point to mecca?

Algebra was arabic invention by man called Al Jabri
AL+jiberi= Aljebri led to Algebra

Re: # 45
Without theoritical knowledge base, you can not achieve anything in current context. We are carrying legacy of thousands years of human civilisation. So, whet knowledge is already created learn using theory.

Some people are commenting about poor drinking water etc...problem. Indian population is so huge, the solution lies more in population control than anything else.

Re: # 62
Yeah...Like Sunya was translated into arabic and known as Zero.
Back to the basic point; strengthening higher education without looking at the foundation is utmost foolishness.

Re: # 59
Moslems use green does not imply Green is absolutely patented to moslems.

Do we still have to stick on to the perception that a person becomes eligible to be called a scientist or given infrastructure to do research or can be employed by R&Ds only if he scores well in his exams, gets enough degrees and have a PhD?

Re: # 66 no but these are just first level indicators ...after that it is upto him//her to show their ability.

You cannot just pluck someone off the streets....

Re: # 67

You cannot just pluck someone off the streets....

We do not have to, but why not provide chances to people who would want to? Why do we have to disqualify somebody just because he lacked the skills to regurgitate the concepts from a text book?

Is research not an incremental knowledge acquisition?

Re: # 62

The word "algebra" emerged from the branch of mathematics called "Al Jabr al Muqabla" by Arab mathematicians. The phrase could roughly be translated as "Equations and comparitors". Algebra came into being as a necessity to solve the mathematical problems faced by the people of that time while deciding on the Muslim Inheritence Law, that prescribes several portions of inheritence to be disburesed among survivors of a deceased, instead of a disbursement through a will. However, one thrid of the inheritence can be bequethed through a will; the two-thrid is disbursed thru fixed portions.

Dr Hoodbhoy, I really appreciate your deconstruction of the claims made by the HEC. As one of my teacher says "I have never seen a revolutionary build the likes of what he destroys". To build something we need craftsmen but to destroy, anyone with a hammer will do". Getting to the point where as you are proficient at pointing out the obvious weaknesses of the project undertaken by the HEC, your suggestions are far from perfect.
Thoughts expressed in the article are very much the stock for intellectuals in Pakistan who are pushing for engineering and sciences in a country that today is need of poets and social scientists, writers, and dramatists. Like many others for you the problem with Pakistan is its material progress, whereas, in truth the problems lies somewhere else. Our culture is dying, a culture which was full of beauty,wisdom, mercy, magnanimity, love, and patience. Individuals pushing for the sciences are the head of this project of throwing out the baby with the bath water .. anglophiles, colonized mentalities, lacking the critical eye which they claim they are promoting. An eye that is incapable of looking beyond the surface.
We are in desperate need of cultural craftsmen who can stop this deathly dance towards destruction, immorality and selfishness ...
What you fail to mention is that the HEC is sending many to study non-engineering subjects, we have historians, sociologists and anthropologists ... these disciplines now need to take center stage .. the engineers have just made a mess of things .. their world view is that just by having more we will be able to fix all the problems. The reality is that our country has the resources but it is distributed with injustice ... we need people to start a movement to awaken our collective conscience ..

And what you suggest will just make the situation worse .. resouces wasted again .. another dead end.

dilsenomad.wordpress.com

urstruly,

"Algebra came into being as a necessity to solve the mathematical problems faced by the people of that time while deciding on the Muslim Inheritence Law"

......... this is just precious ! ........ if it hadn't been for islam, mankind wouldn't have come up with algebra ..... maybe that is why muslims didn't invent toilet paper - we still make do with stones .....

This is what our discourse looks like .. ridicule .. this is the level of discussion. You have not given an argument against the claim made about the origins of algebra. Making fun about the argument is not answering the argument. Read what historians have to say about this question. The statement made is inline with serious scholarly work done by historians .. but our modern colonized mind can only respond with ridicule.

Anyways, what Dr Hoodboy said has elements of truth to it, what he suggests are good short term strategies .. but I only wanted to point out the a reductionist view of the problem will not get is anywhere ... we need to be critical of the western science as much as our own traiditional understandings .. it would be disingenuous to apply critical rigour to one and not the other ..

Re: # 72

dilsenomad,

.... who invented what a thousand years ago is totally irrelevant ..... why are muslims so eager to prove they invented this or that when today most of them are running around butt-naked while chewing on a stick? .... the fact of the matter is that in the last six seven huhdred years muslims have been beaten at every field of human endevour - arts, science, sports and basket weaving ........ like the silly african americans who are anxious to prove that the ancient egyptians were negroes, or get all excited over their ancestor who invented the tooth pick, mohammedans get all worked up over bedouins and persians who could read and write a thousand years ago ....... get over it !

.....what matters is what you are doing now - other than perfecting the art of suicide bombing and washing smelly feet in public restrooms ...........

#69 Posted by Urstruly:

Urstruly, very very interesting. And Hamid, at least shut up here for you may end looking like a fool here. I know about extremely complicated computations regarding Jewish inheritence laws as put forth in the Talmud. These solutions can be seen as the "nucleolous" of a game. Applications of such solution concepts are now widely prevalent in computation and genetics. So Urstruly may have a point here. I would like to know about references to debates on such laws in Islam. Urstruly ... I will be very grateful (English translations if possible please otherwise Arabic etc. would do).

Re: # 74

GT,

... so you blame the poor jews for our silly inheritance laws ?........ how muslim !

Re: # 74 GT

The following website explains the Muslim Law of Inheritence in quite a detail. When you go down the page to the mathematical computation part of it, you will understand why and how Algebra had to be invented.
http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=article& aid=14

Re: # 73
:)
Again I would say your understanding is based on very reductionist understandings, you should be aware of the fact that the majority of the Muslims condemn suicide bombings. The bombings are a result of a break from our traditional Islamic understandings .. and giving into the pseudo modernism many individuals espouse to .. yes in some human endeavours like you mention Muslims are not worthy of mention but the most important human endeavour is being human, my friend. And many in the glorious west are lagging far behind in this. People to this day appreciate the humanity of Muslims, for a change read and see what others have to say about their experiences in the Muslim world .. dont make an idol out of your own thoughts .. like the true modern person, be self critical and engender humility so you learn. Like socrates said: All i know is I know nothing.

If you love the west be like those in the West who are enlightened. Read history bro, many of the Muslim lands have been colonized by the west and they are still recovering.

Give us time and once again we will reign supreme because of our moral integrity and tolerance.

Re: # 77
Another thing .. yes, the west did create the noble television, which is now the strongest narcotic; yes the west did invent the internet and now the most successful business on the net are pornsites .. they certainly have liberated women; yes the west did surely, make scientific progress, ask peopple from Hiroshima how they have benefitted.

Modern man has been able to control the resources of the planet but has not matured spiritually and in his arrogance fails to see this problem ..

you need algebra to figure out that every son gets twice what every daughter gets? and "muslim laws of inheritance" were advanced for their age, and pointed in the direction of greater rights for women.

if one follows the spirit of the Quran, the logic would be to bring laws up to date and give equal amounts to sons and daughters.

But "muslims" in Pakistan follow the Quranic injunctions the way Musharraf follows the Constitution - violate its basic spirit, take selective parts out of it when convenient, add where material if even selected parts are missing, and give the pretense of following the rules by giving detailed references.

Musharraf abuses the Constitution the way Maulvis abuse Islam.

Re: # 77

I think you are new on chowk. But you will also figure out that it is better to hit your head against a fast moving truch than arguing with hamidm. In case you are wondering who he is; he is the person sitting at the very right in white dress in this panel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Vtx8JOF9AI

how do you argue with him?

Thanks for the headsup urstruly :) I am new and had no idea who this guy was .. you will see me disengage completely. I have no patience for people who are not willing to budge.

tahmed32: Just a comment on what you said, bro not everything can be changed because we think it suits the modern situation. The makasid of shariah law are at times not too obvious to experts let alone laymen. So it is best to trust in Allah and err in caution.
Secondly, in the case you mention it will be illogical to do what you suggest, even today not just in PK but in the modern west too, men are responsible for providing for their families .. men are responsible for taking care of their old parents, thus it is only fair to give them more. IN these times of obsession with political correctness vis a vis western humanistic values if we do as you propose we will be unjust.

dilsenomad

Hope you won't 'disengage.' The rule on chowk is to denounce first, listen later. Just get used to it, and you can have some good conversations over time.

Welcome.

Re: # 82
Thanks Eklavya :)I meant disengaging with him .. not everyone else :)
Hey urstruly man that video looks doctored .. the guy in the middle doesnt move for a good ten seconds ... hmmm ..

my blog: dilsenomad.wordpress.com

Re: # 70
"Our culture is dying, a culture which was full of beauty,wisdom, mercy, magnanimity, love, and patience".

Son, you need to immediately see a good neurologist. You seem to be dangerously delusionsal.

Uncle, cultural imperialism is a reality, if you are not acknowledging it, then I dont know who has fact confused with fiction.

Or you probably mean by that statement that we never had those things ... again I would say get in touch with a historian .. I can suggest a few names:
Barnaby Rogerson
Karen Armstrong
Amitav Ghosh
Gai Eaton

or do you belive in the imagined construct of the linear direction of progress??

And also if I suffer from delusion, I must see a psychiatrist not a neurologist .. it is possibly a problem with my perception and not the physical wiring.

Re: # 72
"You have not given an argument against the claim made about the origins of algebra. Making fun about the argument is not answering the argument. Read what historians have to say about this question. The statement made is inline with serious scholarly work done by historians .. but our modern colonized mind can only respond with ridicule".

While problems of the Muslim inheritance law may be solved using algebra, this does not mean that it was the primary motivator for the development of algebra. Indeed there are also problems in the Rhind Papyrus that can be solved using algebra.

Can you provide some referenes to support your criticism of Hamidm's point?

Re: # 85

Cultural imperialism is indeed a reality. That was not my point.

God(SWT) Law does not Allow cultures that are full of beauty, mercy, kindness, and what not to be easily destroyed. People who have those attributes are also blessed with courage and bravery, something I have been search for with a microscope since I was old enough to think.

Before a people are physicaly defeated, they have morally defeated themselves long time ago. And always entirely of their own efforts, without any help from outsiders.

Unwillingness to search history for reasons of moral decay of peoples/civilization is a symptom of mental laziness where it comes much easier to blame others for one's own faults. It must be caused by deliberate, or induced, amnesia/dementia, which seems to me to a structural problem better addressed by a neurologist.

... Or, perhaps, uncle learnt his principles from a different book (but I only had access to an Arabic Qur'an with translations). Perhaps you can tell me where you learnt yours?

Re: # 83

The video is not doctored. Just exchange a few posts with hamidm and you find yourself scratching your head.

Re: # 83

The video is not doctored. Just exchange a few posts with hamidm and you find yourself scratching your head.

Dearest Uncle,
In me you will find somebody who thinks on the same lines .. somebody for whom the Quran is the first source. Where I differ with you is only that I tend to focus on some of the problems we are facing .. specially our youth who have lost a sense of direction and purpose.I am at the same time full of hope, but am cognizant of the effort that is required to make a stand against the cultural imperialism.

From my negative comments you took the wrong idea and your comments were out of taste. In any case I apologize for giving you the wrong impression.

And Allah knows best.

dilsenomad #81: greetings my friend to chowk.
on inheritance laws. The Quranic statement of "2 parts to boys and 1 to girls) is not a principle of itself. Rather, it is the application of a broader principle of justice and protection of the weak that is emphasized in the Quran.

Under the conditions you mention (i.e. boys responsible for parents in old age), you say boys should get twice what girls get. Even under these assumptions, to me it is a weak argument - the two to one ratio is arbitrary and the assumption is very weak indeed (as discussed below).

Let us apply your rule in practice: As a moments reflection on examples you know of will no doubt tell you, he reality is that it is often the daughter who takes care of the parents in old age rather than the son. The 2-1 rule works against in the opposite direction to the one you mention!!


So, does one stick to the application of a principle even if common sense tells us that it in facts works to the detriment of the broader principle? Or does one modify the application to suit reality? Common sense would tell us that in this case, the parent may wish to reward the daughter for taking care of them in their old age by leaving behind their home to one child alone. Or perhaps the parents may wish to reward a poor servant who has served them in their old age, while their own children ignored them? (I am sure you will find such cases in Pakistan - I know a few such unfortunate cases myself).

So, using your example, what is the solution?

In the US and other countries with strong legal frameworks, "Wills" are an obvious and effective means for older people to reward those who were kind to them, rather than being forced to give to other individuals who may be their sons but didnt care for them. But..Pakistan has a very weak legal framework (despite our noble lawyers and Chief Justice now languishing in house arrest as they refuse to bow to the demands of the rogue general musharraf). Even BB's "Will" was not made public, and thus could well have been a concocted document!!

So - we have to use our heads and try to come up with a proper solution. I wont solve the problem - but will end this post by merely pointing to HOW it should be solved: i.e. by a democratically elected national assembly that is bound not by narrow and selective interprettions of the Quran (sharia), but by the broad principles of justice and protection of the weak.

welcome dilsenomad..pls visit unplugged section too.

#76 Posted by Urstruly

Urstruly,

Thanks a ton for the reference. I shall read it soon.

Tahmed sahib:

" the logic would be to bring laws up to date and give equal amounts to sons and daughters."

Not necessarily!!!! Maybe I should write something about these laws when I have time.

Re #91: Similar reasoning would suggest that Quranic restrictions on pork and wine too are circumstantial and should be done away with. Of course, hygiene codes would ensure cleanliness in pork consumption and legal codes would serve to quell alcohol abuse.

Your view would come across as more genuine if you agree that enjoying a pork chop with a glass of wine is not against Quranic guidance.

While Quran readily grants flexibility in application of its principles, dismissing these principles altogether … in the name of Islam … remains a far-fetched notion.

GT: Look forward to your take on this. However, in examining the issue, please keep in mind what I wrote at the end in bold: " I wont solve the problem - but will end this post by merely pointing to HOW it should be solved: i.e. by a democratically elected national assembly that is bound not by narrow and selective interpretions of the Quran (sharia), but by the broad principles of justice and protection of the weak. "

Thus - in Pakistan, mullahs have been pushing for "shariah" laws for decades. And where they have succeeded (hadood, blasphemy), they have been passed not after free and open debate in a proper parliament (as such important matters should be), but by the stroke of a pen by the scoundrel Zia. And the results are there for too see: the above-mentioned Quranic principles of justice and protection of the weak have been assaulted in the name of Islam!!

That is why it is so important to keep in mind what I wrote above - about the PROCESS (the "how" noted above) is important.

sattar: In #91, it is the "how" I am proposing, not (as you assume) the "what" with respect to issues of inheritance.

tahmed32 I understand your concern, but as a few others have pointed out, contextualizing leads to numerous problems.
The problem with Pakistan is that the best minds have set their eyes on lucrative professions such as engineering, law, IT etc. and not many intelligent people study the traditional Islamic sciences. As a result we are short of spokesmen for traditional Islam .. add to this the mallah culture and you have a serious problem on your hands. In this situation people with very shoddy credentials are taken as experts and their understanding is not sound. One can only hope that more of our educated class will get involved in traditional ISlamic education and convey to the generations to come the soundness of that understanding.

This obsession with reform is really misplaced. In the west scholars like Hamza Yusuf, Abdal Hakim Murad, Dr Umar Faruq, Abdullah Bin Bayyah etc. have been able to make such a huge impact. If you are interested check out my blog where I have
excellent links. You will find your questions answered there.

dilsenomad.wordpress.com

Also, the law works as a system, not individual laws applied in a vacuum. Each law is applied with reference to other laws. It is the responsibility of the man to provide for his family according to Islamic law.So first eliminate this Islamic practise based on the modern consition that women work too, so a man is not respnsible for running the house .. but this is ISlamically and culturally impossible .. so if you start dishing out equal shares to your children, you are being unfair.

As far as wills are concerned, as a last resort even in traditional sunni Islam you can give all your money to one child - it is not recommended - but I gather it is allowed. So if the situation is that bad ad your sons have forsaken you (aalaa Baghban isstyle) then you can bar them from your money by giving it to your daughter before you die.

And Allah knows best.

Re: # 99

mecca math

.... muslims might have invented algebra and the vacum cleaner, but it is evident that mo of mecca couldn't do simple arithmetic ..... i know, i know, he was an ummi who never went to school, but that is no excuse for a man who talked to winged angels and flew on winged horses :

here is what a good christian mathmetician at liberty university came up with:


(Koran 4:11)
Allah directs you as regards your children's
(Inheritance): to the male a portion equal to
that of two females: if only daughters, two or
more, Their share is two-thirds of the inheritance;
if only one, her, share is a half.
For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to
each, if the deceased left children; if no
children, and the parents are the heirs, the
mother has a third; if the deceased left brothers
the mother has a sixth...

(Koran 4:12)
In what your wives leave, your share is a half,
if they leave no child; but if they leave a child,
ye get a fourth; after payment of legacies and
debts. In what ye leave, their share is a fourth,
If ye leave no child; but if ye leave a child, they
get an eighth; after payment.

(Koran 4:176)
...If it is a man that dies, leaving a sister
but no child, she shall have half the inheritance:
If a woman dies and leaves no child, her brother
takes her inheritance: If there are two sisters,
they shall have two-thirds of the inheritance.
If there are brothers and sisters, the male takes
twice the share of the female.

Let us suppose that a man dies and leaves behind three daughters, two parents and his wife. According to the verses stated above the three daughters together will receive 2/3 of the share, the parents will receive 1/3 of the share and the wife will receive 1/8 of the share.

Do the math once again: 2/3 + 1/3 + 1/8 = 9/8 = 1.125. The distribution of the property adds up to more than the available property! How can this distribution be possible? Once again Mohammed displays his inability to add. Well, if a person can't add integers then it is unprobable that he would know how to add fractions.

Another example: A man dies and leaves behind his mother, his wife and two sisters. According to what Mohammed has stated in Koran 4:11-12 and 4:176 the mother will receive 1/3 of the property, the wife will receive 1/4 of the property and the sisters will receive 2/3 of the property.

Let us add up the fractions again: 1/3 + 2/3 + 1/4 = 5/4 = 1.25 and once again it adds up to more than the available property.

........... so, a good muslim can give away a buck and a quarter even though you only have a buck .......that beats the heck out of turning water into wine ..... subhanallah ! ... or, should i say, "verily, we are doomed"

Re: # 73
silly african americans who are anxious to prove that the ancient egyptians were negroes, or get all excited over their