Bullhe Shah and His Veil of “Meem”

A better article by Asghar Ali Engineer- All Pakis must read this.

http://www.indianmuslims.info/articles/asghar_ali_engineer/articles/suf ism_its_origin_and_impact_on_indian_islam.html

#218 Posted by Eklavya,

You can be used happily, and become a Jihadi (most ignorant people, my chowk experience tells me, tend to be the biggest and 'blindest' jihadis, in their own silly, but very effective, ways :)).

Our good friend tahmed32 is the biggest and the most tirelessly committed Jihadi I've ever seen.

But he would never know how it's possible, nor can anyone explain the 'how' to him. (-;

Sufis are "better" muslims than the so called sarkari Ulemas.

Sufis' wali is superior to prophet anyway- not to speak about that pedophile charlatan claiming to be a prophet!!

Re: # 228

Hey mullahji,

Who decides who is a muslim or not? You mullahji??

Re: # 223

Really!! Is that all it said; wonderful!

Distort the truth and cherry pick all you like; it also says something about beating up wives if they are disobedient, it also allows polygamy (for men only though + whatever "one's right hand gets"), half of the inheritence and value on testimony for women, Jihad/Qitaal against the non-believers................................................................... ............................do you really want me to go on.

I have already said believe in fairies all you like; just keep that to yourself and don't expect someone else to just go along on YOUR hunch.

It is not I who needs to read it like a man not a parrot mate. The only reason more than 95% of any given religions' adherents think that is THE ONLY WAY is because it is what they learnt from their families/societies/parents/teachers. There is only a very small minority, in the greater scheme of things, that would convert, in one direction or another. People delude themselves in thinking that they have really given it a "free-thought", when they revert back to the faith of their immediate ancestors; in one shape or another.

The reason Sufism is becoming popular, especially amongst Muslims in the west, is that it is more palatable and keeps that continuity going.

Islam can only survive as "Deen-e-Ghalib"; that is exactly why we are discussing it now. That is how it has survived through the centuries. It was never a "personal" belief as we use that term these days. These are the dilemmas the Muslim diaspora, especially in the west, seems to be facing. Everyone one talks to would say,"this is not my Islam" or "my Islam doesn't teach this", or "I am a muslim but don't think like that". It goes on forever.

By the way, when I first wrote on this site, I did so with a series of questions. I don't remember any one addressing those. (#49)

Re # 222

First cousin marriages are practised by more than 80% of the Lebanese Muslim community residing in Australia. They are the largest Lebanes community outside the country. I have also been related similar statistics by Egyptians and Somalis living in the UK.

tahmed#217:

We have been around this mulberry bush before, haven't we? Urstruly, naqshbandi, sattar, massadi, zeemax, hamidm, you (and yours truly, although that may not count) have all read the quran and have come away with a different understanding of its core message. Now, that won't be a problem, if one were to accept an authoritative interpretation of the core message; but here we are up against a huge problem, as according to you, Islam does not allow any intermediaries and we cannot depend upon the interpretation of those claiming to be the ulema of Islam. Therefore, OBL's interpretation of the Quranic message is as valid as that of the Mufti of Al Azhar or of Massadi or your own.

"human experience the only source of morality etc...."

That clarifies the problem. You just don't, even remotely, think like a Muslim :(

Re: # 225

"Sufi is for self and Prophet peace be upon him and his true follower Ulema are for humanity. "

That is the biggest scandal of humanity- every religious person wants to save other souls - and never doubting if his own karmas would save him or not!!
Mohammad's karma would have got him any way - there is no doubt about the "narak" he is in even now..he is not in the jail as an under-trial waiting for Qayamat.....he is now suffering and he is making all other momeens suffer with him by influencing them to do all sorts of evil things in the name of Islam.

Re: # 222

"Furhter more why Indians are bent upon always to check things on the bases of theri own terms and consdier themselves the msot educated ones on the surface of earth from times immemorial?"

Mahfari Saheb ,

This steroetype is a prejudice you have been taught in you schools. This official 'untruth' makes to completely unperceptive to what I am talking about as an idolator.
I have said - I REPAEAT- the formless cannot be even talked about . but experienced (Prokshanubhuti) in silence.
I do not have claim to 'truth' because I cannot even speak about the 'truth'.

Let us hope you and other Pakistanis can understand this without filtering it through the Islamic blinkers and prejudices laid by the Pak Studies.

Re: # 200 Bitterladdu

Abdur Rashid Gangohi says

that on Mairaj Prophet peace be upon him went and came back
By GOd if i had gone would have not come back


Sufi is for self and Prophet peace be upon him and his true follower Ulema are for humanity.

Come out of mentality of frog of a well and learn to accept vastness of an ocean and if can not accept this at least grow up and respect others for your own respect. Your Karma may be bitter and frustrated , but it is not for others always!

Re: # 197 read my interact please.

#219 akcheema: sit down and catch your breath. close your eyes..think of a tropical beach, with palm trees gently waving in the wind...breathe in. hold..hold...breathe out..aaaaaahhhhhh!!

now where were we..oh yes. the core message. no i am not making it up - if the Quran says that "those who believe in God and the Judgement Day and do good they have nothing to fear" then I believe that.

And where does the Quran tell you to have a theocratic state? does the Quran talk about the protocol for prophetic succession? does it say anywhere that if black smoke comes out the mullahs are still figuring out the next prophet, and if white smoke comes out the mullahs have it figured out? so never let me see you rant again about this theocratic state or mullah rule!! go back and read the Quran like a man, not like a parrot. Then come talk to me!

Re: # 192ithas been very interesting debates except some below the belt attacks.

I have some different poitn of views,to share with you all, genetics is present and modern knowledge of twentieth century and it tells that gene pool is reduced when cousin marriages are celeberated. But i read an intersting thing in Al-Ghazzali's Tehzeeb Ahyaal Alum in Chapter on MArriage and conditions for marriage that avoid mariages between cousins and it is a hadith albeit zaeef( zaeef menas chain was missing and content needs to be checked on the bases of rationality)... so which scientific knowledeg developed this idea of not marrying cousins soem 1400 years ago? It deos not matter whther it was practiced 100 % or not but except Punjab it is practiced that Muslims avoid cousin marriages !

Furhter more why Indians are bent upon always to check things on the bases of theri own terms and consdier themselves the msot educated ones on the surface of earth from times immemorial?

As to use of technical terms by Laddu how will we adjsut the sayings of 14th century Saints of Spain and many saints of India that feeling lost in Ultimate reality is the first stage of the lowest level of spiritual journey and there are furhter many many stages of thsi journey?

As to circular thinking I rememebr saying of imam Jafer Sadiq Ra that Allah created reason first of all and shah Wali Alalh that without reason and Hikmat all laws on the name of religion are farce and islamic Shariah's basic thrust on rational and reason instead of blind following is stressed so much , but here it is treated as a blind belief?how to reconcilethis with historical facts and truths?

As to evolution's beauty , how can we determine that genetic mutation is by chance and it is not directed or determined by certain proportion of chemicals and eleemnts?

I wait answers of these points then we can move further. I hope to get answers not confusion and abuses!

I am repeating htis for you, I thought friends will be able to read this and connect with theri debate , but it has not happened so I am making it specically addressed now to writer of this interact.

Re: # 218

"Hopefully, I did not explain the basic parameters of Islamic 'freedom and the limit' too offensively. That was probably as gentle as one gets. :("
Hey, your Islamist veiled threats do not scare most of us. Try something like wearing a suicide belt........

Re: # 218

"..but in real life, your friends, your family, your acquaintances, or just the stranger on the street MUST be able to put a strict limit on your ability to condemn/Question the Quran/Prophet Muhammad."

Hey, I object to this fascist remark. As an idolator whose forefathers were murdered brutally by Mohammad and his followers since ages I STRONGLY object to some momeen like Kaale Khan trying to supress my voice and objection.
I have a perfectly valid reason to call for the trial of this rascal and his followers for brutal genocide of my idolator forefathers in Arabia as well as Indian subcontinent.

Re: # 217

If you are asking me to "accept" your version of the "core message", then the answer is a big NO!! That goes against the basic concept of freedom of speech. It may be all very well having anonymised philosophical discussions online, reality on the ground is very different!

Now, for the purpose of a constitutiona and legal code, I DONOT accept any other authority than the collective conscience of the human race. Of course there will be some geographical variations in this but the "core message" is a democratic, liberal and accommodating system that is based on the principles of social justice. You cannot find that when a bunch a theocrats are in charge; take the example of Iran; yeah yeah,.. they are shiites and the sunnis are much better!! or are they. Which Islam would you impose on the other and how would you define this "core"? By what standards would you cherry pick the Quranic Ayas that don't appeal to you but might to someone else?

If something is from god/allah etc., it has to be impeccable. There is no room for ambiguity here; it seems this book (Koran) does not meet these criteria. Now people are talking about "core messages: here. I repeat myself: Who would define this core? You, Zeemax, Eklavya?

This was about Sufism but seems to be turning into a discussion in theology. The BEAUTY of man-made laws is exactly that; they can be changed when the situation is right. Divine law is unchangeable, and as I gather from Eklavya's writings, un-challengeable as well.

By the way, in one's personal life, if one wants to believe in a sky fairy because it gives one some comfort, or present it with ritualistic animal sacrifices, I have already agreed with that in principle. Just don't expect people with abilities to analyse and think rationally to just swallow it on your hunch that it might be true!

Problem with Islam is it has always, either had a majority culture or it was the domineering force through history. With the colonial empires (which was no better or worse that what the muslims did before that), they were subjugated in abig way. There is a lot of inferiority complex which often expresses itself as delusions of grandeur. The reason people won't stop ranting about "Glorious Muslim Spain" is that it gives them an ego boost and a sense of self-worth; the world today has practically nothing useful with a muslim name attached to it; the only thing they can do is blow themselves up to "assert" domination. Its sour grapes!! nothing else.

I hope this answers your query.

Re # 218

I am not even sure what to make of this huge collection of words; what are you trying to say? Is it some sort of a code? Why don't we invite Mohammed Asad to de-code it! He apparently did a good job with the Koran!

Eklavya, I have never been rude/angry to you so I don't know how you got that impression. Where in my previous writings did I express the wish to be part of this cult?! You seem to have confused the concept of cultural solidarity with belief and I have already addressed that before.

Your definition of a muslim is very broad and has never been the "standard definition" in the muslim world throughout history. Are Ahmedis, Ismailis, Bahaais muslim as well?