Bullhe Shah and His Veil of “Meem�

Re: # 297

Well said Eklavya, I am aware of this. I raise my children without any religious identity and if they choose to do stupid things on growing up, nothing I can do.

There is a slight distinction between culture and religion I think, you might disagree. That is why I mentioned "ethnic" for want of a better word really. Its obviously not an inherited trait as you know. I do talk to them about their thoughts on the subject, especially around Eid/Christmas etc; my 7 year old, presumably after hearing the story of "baby jesus" from a school pal came up to me and said that this whole story doesn't make any sense. I was intrigued so let her carry on. Then she asked me if there was a god to which my reply was that I didn't know. Then she said that if "someone" had made the universe, it would have been different to what it is now; in the sense that there shouldn't be any pain and suffering around. She even referred to parents loving their children, and if god was there and capable of doing something (which obviously he is meant to be), why would he not look after the poor, homeless, sick and needy. (These are the thoughts of a seven year old so guys please don't start writing in "refuting" anything; I, hereby, exempt Zeemax from this injunction!)

I try to let them develop their own thoughts rather than indoctrinating them into anything, including my own views. Its important to allow them to develop the "ability to think" without telling them "what to think".

I hope that addresses your concerns about my next generations turning out to be suicide bombers!

Re: # 295

Thanks Mafari, my reply was only after reading it. Rather than explaining anything, it sort of raised a lot of more questions. Anyway, enough said on the subject.

I knew someone would make exactly the sort of comment you made about the excerpt from "River out of Eden". I refer to No: 294.

Unfortunately the reality of the universe is such and undeniable. Since we are meant to be discussing things in a Sufi contest, I refer you to Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan's Qawwali (written by my "garaeen" Mr Naaz Khailvi; actually Nusrat is Lyallpuri as well). I am sure you must have heard it "tum ek gorakh dhanda ho". Next time pay attention to the second last "band" that discusses "fitrat kay tazaadat", and see what you think. But what I am suggesting is exactly the opposite; I happen to be a very positive individual in general terms, I laugh, joke and have friends like everyone else. I love my family, respect my parents all that etc. My lack of belief in the supernatural has not had any influence on my thinking of how I approach things. I work hard, play hard, I am enthusiastic about learning and discovering new horizon etc. This life is what one makes of it essentially. At the end of the day we all die and I am not afraid of it; however I would prefer not to waste my life by being lynched by a mob of vigilantes.

And contrary to the impression I seem to have created, I don't want to force my views on anyone. This is an invitation to talk. People who have said that "no one has forced Islam on anyone"; Islam has spread solely by the sword, that history is so recent that it is hard to deny. No point pointing the finger and saying "they did it too"; this is about self-analysis as a group. I don't want to go on about it as it has mostly been said before.

On a lighter note, I am very positively surprised that there is a recognised distinction in Islamic culture between misery and joy! Given this is the only religio-cultural tradition I know whose New Year starts with 10 days of mourning (contrary to the celebratory nature of any other New Year I know; be it Jewish, Romano-christian, Chinese etc)!

Hey, not to imply that there are gun-carrying jihadis on chowk, but that if one is a 'liberal, cultural' Muslim then after a while, one would naturally detest evil non-Muslims.

Think of it as group karma. The conflict will catch up with you, sooner or later. And once that happens, your choices will become much clearer.

Unfortunately, it is not an individually fair world.

Cheema ji, 'cultural' memebership will not work the way one might expect.

There are unavoidable conflicts between two or more groups making radically different, fundamentally important, claims about logic and value, and seeking very different this worldly and next-worldly goals.

Those group-level conflicts will exist so long as contradictory claims about logic and value are publicly implied, made, and defended.

Try as we might, there is simply no way to 'individually' opt out of those conflicts as those conflicts become more and more recognized.

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As a 'cultural member' you will get sqashed in the middle.

Ultimately, probably quite soon, you too will end up hating non-Muslims. And you, or your children, or grand-children will turn into genuine good Muslims.

LOL, I have visions of hamdim2's grand children running around in skull caps and burqas, and turning into actual gun-carrying jihadis against evil unbelievers :)

That is an unevitable, logical process. It happens exclusivly because of our various (group) affiliations, and it happens all the time, on chowk, and in real life.

Re: # 292 Please read my interact on answer to 49 this issue I specifically answered these questions!

Re: # 289 Yea when we live oin vaccum and are victim of less knoledge then this hopelessness and absurdity is our destiny... by our own choice!May Allah save us from despair!

Re: # 174

At the end of the day WE ARE ALL ATHEISTS!

Atheist was the term used by the Greeks/Romans for early Christians who were thought to be denying the existence of the gods of the ancients.

The difference between myself and some of the "believing" contributers here is actually very small. They deny the existence of, e.g., Brahma, Vishnu, Indra, Zeus, Apollo......I only believe in one less god than them.

And the reasons for not believing in him are exactly the same as their reasons for not believing in all the other gods.

Re: # 237

Zeemax: I still haven't seen any answers to my questions in No: 49. OK, I'll put you out of your misery, you can't. In fact no one can including me; I wrote down most of those when I was 12. So don't worry, you are off the hook.

Please feel free to invoke Advice No: 14 from my entry: 235; or one of the others of your chosing.

Re: # 272

Hi Eklavya,

I appreciate your comments and honesty; you could have fooled me! Unbeliever eh!

You are right in the sense that I AM part of a culture, hence an "ethnic Muslim". It is estimated that in Russia, almost 20% of the population belongs to this category. A prime example is Mr Marat Safin and his sister Dinara Safina(tennis). How else would you describe them? Both non-practicing and non-believing.

It is no different to having atheist-jews, atheist-hindus and so on. The very fact I show concern in these matters is a testament to that; so there, happy now!

As far as believing is concerned, it is a different matter altogether. I donot believe in a supernatural god as defined by traditional religions, be it Abrahamic or Hinduism or any other. Therefore, with this definition of god in mind I'd be very happy to say the following, despite your reluctance that "THERE IS NO GOD INCLUDING ALLAH" the moon-god; it does have a ring to it don't you think. As far as his self-proclaimed mate Mohammed and his son Jesus, they don't even come into it as the foundation for them simply doesn't exist.

I hope this clarification helps.

By the way, on "you don't even think like a muslim" remark; it is one of the nicest compliments I have had today; thank you!

Re 289:

sorry its Richard Dawkins

Re 281 (urstruly)

This is from a book by Richard, "River Out of Eden":

"The total amount of suffering per year in the natural world is beyond all decent contemplation. During the minute that it takes me to compose this sentence, thousands of animals are being eaten alive, many others are running for their lives, whimpering with fear, others are slowly being devoured from within by rasping parasites, thousands of all kinds are dying of starvation, thirst, and disease. It must be so. If there ever is a time of plenty, this very fact will automatically lead to an increase in the population until the natural state of starvation and misery is restored. In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference".

BREAKING NEWS

This is to inform all the chowkis that 1008 Shri Shri Laddu Gopal Maharaj ji would not be available for the next two months on the Chowk.
In case Pakistani Momeens would like to celebrate his unforeseen voluntary abscense as victory and a retribution of the angry moon god by distributing sweets then they should do that by distribution of Boondi ke Laddu.

Allahu!!

Re: # 286 No one is superior toany one while discussing,you want to reproduce em the oldinteracts, but it si off the track discussion . I am waiitng when you will complete your repetitive stock of liesand I willanswer it,if you have finishged your virile attacks then can I answer them or you ahev more poision in your heart and soul?

mahfri ji,

Gol mol mat keejie. Dekhiyee, saaf saaf baat kariye.
Jhooti mooti mein apne ko hooshiyaar mat samajhiye!!
Boorbak!!

Re: # 264 Bitter laddu do you remember our interacts on Buddhism issues when I referred to this and you vanished like gedhy ky ser say seeng!

Naqshu,

Ther exist heart purifying non-muslim tariqahs which would help take you to even deeper levels of thought and the 9 levels of existence. Ego-lessness never takes one to satan. There is no measuring instrument that can tell whether the experience of bliss is Angelic or Satanic. As your prophet said that good dreams are from Angels and bad dreams are from Satan - in the same way blissful eperiences can only be from Allah.
Whether an experience is angelic or not can only be inferred from the results it produces on the person and becomes evident from the manner, demeanor and character of the person who has successfully dissolved his ego before the divine. If it reinforces the ego and makes a person feel 'superior' to other humans and makes him undertake loot, plunder and rape then that experience is nothing but satanic.