Bullhe Shah and His Veil of “Meem”

Re: # 217

If you are asking me to "accept" your version of the "core message", then the answer is a big NO!! That goes against the basic concept of freedom of speech. It may be all very well having anonymised philosophical discussions online, reality on the ground is very different!

Now, for the purpose of a constitutiona and legal code, I DONOT accept any other authority than the collective conscience of the human race. Of course there will be some geographical variations in this but the "core message" is a democratic, liberal and accommodating system that is based on the principles of social justice. You cannot find that when a bunch a theocrats are in charge; take the example of Iran; yeah yeah,.. they are shiites and the sunnis are much better!! or are they. Which Islam would you impose on the other and how would you define this "core"? By what standards would you cherry pick the Quranic Ayas that don't appeal to you but might to someone else?

If something is from god/allah etc., it has to be impeccable. There is no room for ambiguity here; it seems this book (Koran) does not meet these criteria. Now people are talking about "core messages: here. I repeat myself: Who would define this core? You, Zeemax, Eklavya?

This was about Sufism but seems to be turning into a discussion in theology. The BEAUTY of man-made laws is exactly that; they can be changed when the situation is right. Divine law is unchangeable, and as I gather from Eklavya's writings, un-challengeable as well.

By the way, in one's personal life, if one wants to believe in a sky fairy because it gives one some comfort, or present it with ritualistic animal sacrifices, I have already agreed with that in principle. Just don't expect people with abilities to analyse and think rationally to just swallow it on your hunch that it might be true!

Problem with Islam is it has always, either had a majority culture or it was the domineering force through history. With the colonial empires (which was no better or worse that what the muslims did before that), they were subjugated in abig way. There is a lot of inferiority complex which often expresses itself as delusions of grandeur. The reason people won't stop ranting about "Glorious Muslim Spain" is that it gives them an ego boost and a sense of self-worth; the world today has practically nothing useful with a muslim name attached to it; the only thing they can do is blow themselves up to "assert" domination. Its sour grapes!! nothing else.

I hope this answers your query.

Re # 218

I am not even sure what to make of this huge collection of words; what are you trying to say? Is it some sort of a code? Why don't we invite Mohammed Asad to de-code it! He apparently did a good job with the Koran!

Eklavya, I have never been rude/angry to you so I don't know how you got that impression. Where in my previous writings did I express the wish to be part of this cult?! You seem to have confused the concept of cultural solidarity with belief and I have already addressed that before.

Your definition of a muslim is very broad and has never been the "standard definition" in the muslim world throughout history. Are Ahmedis, Ismailis, Bahaais muslim as well?

zee, I refuse nothing from you except that which cannot be done for whatever reasons for a time being :)

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Wasn't sure if too many people were ready to grapple with the concept of Islam's water carriers and flag bearers. Just too many good people will refuse to listen :(

I will adopt a simpler tack, first. It doesn't do full justice, but might get the sense across.

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akcheema ji, nothing is gained by getting upset. These are the issues over which reasonable people can easily approach some agreement, if they look at all facts.

The beauty and the power (should use quotes for those words because some people will not see the beauty or the power) of Islam lies in the enormous freedom it provides within.

ALL it asks is that

(1) you call yourself a Muslim (does not matter what sort), at least for 'public' purposes. You should add to the 'total numbers' - that is the most important, in fact the ONLY thing that counts, if you also

(2) do not (or are not allowed to) publicly condemn/abuse the Quran (Prophet Muhammad too, but for now, let's not get into that).

It may be 'tolerable' to hide behind the Internet but in real life, your friends, your family, your acquaintances, or just the stranger on the street MUST be able to put a strict limit on your ability to condemn/Question the Quran/Prophet Muhammad.

So long as you do that, Islam has NO problem with you. You can say or do anything you want (hopefully within legal limits if those legal limits do not contradict divine injunctions).

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Now comes the most interesting part. You might THINK you got away with taquiyya giri by simply calling yourself a Muslim, and keeping quiet (even if that silence is forced upon you) about the Quran/Propeht Muhammad.

But no! Once you do those two things, Islam has totally got your number!! Over the long-term you and your taquiyya giri mean nothing, other than just a resource for Islam. :)

You can be used happily, and become a Jihadi (most ignorant people, my chowk experience tells me, tend to be the biggest and 'blindest' jihadis, in their own silly, but very effective, ways :)).

or you can be used kicking and crying about it. Islam will use you and will spit you out as worthless cud. :)

In every case, like it or not, so long as you have the name, you will carry the flag, and nothing else.

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Hopefully, I did not explain the basic parameters of Islamic 'freedom and the limit' too offensively. That was probably as gentle as one gets. :(

#216 i am not sure what it is that one believes "allegorically". I did not write about any allegories - what i am stressing is to focus on the core message - e.g. hanging people for blasphemy is obviously wrong. so those who hang people for blasphemy, or support such a practice, are violating the Quran. its all quite simple. the bells and whistles are supersitions, not islam. the below-mentioned core message is islam.

Re: # 215

If you wnat to have this whole religious thing and believe/interpret allegorically, that is fine. That is exactly what I am talking about. All I am saying is that no one should be able to force this on others via legal codes etc. Problem with our society is that small minded individuals have been making laws, hanging people for blasphemy and related offences, subjugating women and the like..the list is endless.. This is what we are fighting not some 90 year old delinquent's personal affairs! that historically speaking, probably never existed in the first place.

Re # 214

I mentioned my eating habits because of your rant about me cooking animals in the pot for my dinner! I think I have answered your questions more than satisfactorily.

Just as I thought; Pride without substance! what a tragedy!

akcheema: I patiently await your thoughts on my response to the question you posed. Or are you looking only for straw men like ibrahim uncle to pick on?

Re: "The answer to your cooking animals in pots for my dinner; I am a committed vegetarian."

Who the eff is talking about your eating habits here? Not me.

If you can't defend your statements, go jump in a lake or whichever woodwork you crawled out from!

... that's exactly what I meant by seeking confirmation and nothing else. Thanks for proving me right!

#211 Posted by akcheema,

How do you know he was 90? Because the Bible said so!

So you're willing to believe Abraham sacrificed his sons because the scriptures say so, but not willing to believe he was 90+ because the same scriptures say so?

Now you're really cornered. Run for help from the head-murtid hamidm or your other admirer SR. You're too green my friend.

Re # 210

Blah...Blah...Blah..Blah

How do you know he was 90? Because the Bible said so! That is what I mean about your rhetoric mate!

The answer to your cooking animals in pots for my dinner; I am a committed vegetarian.

Re # 209

One is not a lowly anything Eklavya; I came across this from Dan Baker's book, "loosing faith in faith": Enjoy!

"You are an intelligent human being. Your life is valuable for its own sake. You are not second-class in the universe, deriving meaning and purpose from some other mind. You are not inherently evil—you are inherently human, possessing the positive rational potential to help make this a world of morality, peace and joy. Trust yourself".
–Dan Barker, from his book, Losing Faith in Faith

akcheema,

People like you take your cue from the hindoo monkeys, get heartened by the western Islamophobes, and then set off happily in the direction of "How to become a Murtid-101" and "Islam Bashing for Dummies".

Get a life. What you're looking for is confirmation of your convictions courtesy Ali Sina, and not the essence of religion. That's all that your auqaat is.

Take your #192. You say " ... off he goes with his son to sacrifice him to his master ... "

Abey, why did you not contemplate on the part (as the Genesis story goes) in how he got those sons in the first place in his 90s? Did you miss that part? Was it really Abraham's son he was willing to sacrifice? Or was it a Gift from God which when asked to return, he was willing to do?

But you won't go that far because that's going beyond the Murtid-101 for dummies.

Next you say:

"... poor, unsuspecting animals are sacrificed each year on "Eid-ul-Adha" in commemoration of this deplorable fairytale."

Abey! You poor unsuspecting animal worshipper, if you're willing to sacrifice those poor unsuspecting creatures for your cooking pot everyday, what's your problem with others sacrificing them for commemoration of some event they hold sacred?

But I must give you credit for heartening and encouraging the other Murtids on this site, that their quest has not been in vain and they do get new recruits everyday!

But it is disappointing to note that Kaal Chakra has declined my request to explain to you who the water-carriers and the flag-bearers are, who will grudgingly trudge along battered and bruised and kicking and screaming, and be counted amongst the numbers, and provide essential services to the Vanguard, but will never leave the fold of Islam and join anything else.

Above, my dear, is the Caravan which is Islam. And above, is who you are.

nahi, akcheema bhai, just a lowly unbeliever, trying to understand faith exactly as it is, nothing added, nothing removed.

hamidm: the core message of islam puts everything else in perspective. last eid i said that the killing of a poor animals as a short-cut to getting brownie points plus a hearty dinner could hardly be called a "sacrifice". so of course this killing of animals as a sign of "piety" is exactly the way in which rituals are used to detract from the core message of the Quran.

Muslims take the easy way out with these rituals - the hardest thing to do is to do the right thing. Thus - it took a brave Chief Justice without any pretensions to piety to do the right thing and stand up to a dictator's lawless and oppressive behavior. It took Lawyers, Journalists and Human Rights Activists - all derided as "secular" by the mullah diesels - to do the right thing and serve as the thin red line in this struggle. Only then did the politicos of all shapes and form (religious, ex-mard-e-momin, or the merely ex-corrupt) join in.

Re: # 206

Not that it is any of my business, are you sure you are not a muslim? Come into the fold brother! Jazakallah! Alham-u-lillah! ...etc...etc..Naara-e-Takbeer!...

just for clarity/accuracy, one is asked to constantly question (it is not blind faith after all), but the questioning must only be to ultimately affirm, using whatever reasoning necessary.

laddu, please consider: both akcheema and I understand the concept of reverse taquiyya.

This is what akcheema wrote:

"Sufis were essentially atheists hiding behind the veil of pantheism!"

And the following were a few words I added:

"akcheema, you are right in that Sufism is only a means. But as a means it is put to many more uses than that.

Non-Muslims who are caught within Muslim lands or Muslim surroundings use Sufism to pass off as Muslims. Muslim lay people who for whatever reasons find themselves among non-Muslims and don't wish to seem like Muslims use sufism. Muslim scholars and committed people use sufism to ease non-Muslims' interface and interaction with Islam. Lazy people and people lacking discipline use it naturally as a means of escape."

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But you may be underestimating the power of Islam if you believe that Muslims are fooled/tricked like Hindus are. Hindus and Muslims approach sufis and sufism completely, radically differently. For any Muslim, the Quran and Muhammad come first. You question those, and sufism will become indistinguishable, for Islam and for any Muslim, from total goofism.

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akcheema, it's possible he was using reverse taquiyya on Muslims. :)

In which case, he will be, should be, abandoned by Muslims over time. But if he was smart, he would have left no trace of his apostasy.

Akcheema, my understanding is that a believer/Muslim can say ANYTHING, ANYTHING AT ALL he or she wants at any time, so long as he does not, at least publicly, denounce the Quran and Prophet Muhammad. One cannot QUESTION those basics, at least not the Quran, and be known as a Muslim.

That's like a person wanting to be alive without breathing.

Re: # 198

Hi Eklavya,

Since we are on Bulleh Shah, I won't go any further.

Have you read:

Ilmon bus kareen o yaar, Ikko alif teray darkar; and

Ik nuktay wich gal mukdi eh