Bullhe Shah and His Veil of “Meem”

Has any one ever wondered about the following:

If a book (the Qur’an in this situation) is meant to be from God/Allah, why do two individuals of equivalent intelligence always come up with different interpretations of the text?

There are many contradictions in the Quran; the only people unable to see them are those completely brainwashed and have lost the ability to think rationally. They come up with all sorts of historical/non-historical justifications for these such as the arabic language/literary peculiarities etc. nothing substantial or scientific; perhaps they are not aware of this concept.

There are literally billions and billions of galaxies and star systems in our “known” universe; supposedly we are talking about a creator that is well beyond the confines of any material boundaries; why would such a “person” even care about what goes on in individual hearts and minds on a teeny weeny planet! Why would he be upset about, for example, a woman showing off a bit of skin or someone not observing some ritual exactly how it was prescribed (when there are literally hundreds of such, very contradictory, rituals in Islam amongst the sects; not to quote countless other similar examples.

If the “Loh-e-Mahfouz” was the first thing created with the deeds of all living things and their fate already prescribed, what the hell is the meaning of “the free will”?!

If a ruler of my country wanted me to abide by ceratin rules, I would expect them to be laid down explicitly and clearly for all to understand. Otherwise, I would think they were unjust in prosecuting me for misgivings; why are there so many ambiguities as to what the “true Islam” is; that definition is certainly not unanimous by anyone’s standards as we ll know; the interpretations are so varied and far apart at times that it is mind boggling!

According to the Quran, Allah gave his blessings to the Bani Israel but they betrayed his trust many a times, so he went off them completely and chose a different people for revival of his “Only and True Message”! Are we thinking that an omniscient and omnipotent God, with the inherent knowledge of everything, transcendent through the confines of time, made a mistake!! Then he tried to correct it by chosing arabia for his chosen messanger! How odd!!

Prayer is such a contradictory term, don’t you think. If all is already decided, does God change his mind if we were to grovel before him and grants us our desires as a reward; very confusing!!

The only answers I ever got for these as a child, and many other similar questions, was that we CANNOT work out God’s will and he is the only one who does; what the hell are we doing with our assess up in the air five times a day then!!

All of the above seem to be the desires of the needy and not fullfilled “persona” (to quote Al-Razi); Is it that we have created this “persona” is OUR OWN IMAGE rather than the other way around?

Is our “conflict” with the rest of the world sheer paranoia “they are out to get us”!! and the only reason we cannot accept this is our inherent “sense of pride” so deeply indoctrinated that we cannot listen to reason.

The reason I am talking about the Islamic context here is because that is my background and I wish to discuss the very foundations of this faith. It is all very well to hide behind the “good aspects” of Islamic history and ignore the other “less desirable” aspects, but the question is what it is all based on; without foundation, there is nothing left. I criticise any dogma based on “faith” and th other so-called faiths are no exception to this; however, I prefer people from those cultures to comment on their own cultural heritages.

Problem with being “moderate” is that moderation, whatever it might mean, harbours and nurtures extremist elemnts. Extremists to me mean people who are trying to follow their “faiths” down to the last letter. This Sufism etc have nothing to do with what Islam actually is; it is a digression from the mainstream. Sufis were always at the fringes of mainstream society and their ideas of “Sulha-e-kul” etc have nothing to do with the message of Islam; though I do admit it can make Islam a bit more palatable!

If we had all the “knowledge/Ilm” in the Quran, why would we strive for more; the whole idea of “the completeness” of “Deen/way of life” is not compatible with modernity of any kind, however that is defined. Of course we can cherry pick and find quotes to justify absolutely anything that WE WANT TO; that itself is the biggest weakness of religious dogma; interpretable with vast differences of opinions between individuals of equivalent intelligence!

Surely, they can't ALL be true!!!

Re: # 49

akcheema,

you are a murtid and therefore wajib-ul-qatl

......... i thought i would remind you of that before you get yourself into trouble with the rabid followers of the moon god and his bedouin beloved ......

..... having said that, let me try and answer your blasphemous questions with an excerpt of an actual conversation between the moon god, al-lah, and his mailman, gabby ......


why do you love him more than you love me

as usual, al-lah mian and his favourite angel, gabby, are sitting on fluffy cushions of clouds in courtyard of the seventh heaven, drinking meccan date wine and munching on peyote pakoras

al-lah: gabby, you have to get me some decent wine from california next time you go down .... i am sick and tired of drinking this crap ... tastes like camel piss ..

gabby (preening his wings with his beak): al-lah mian, but you are the one who refuses to let me go back since you fell in love with that boy from meccca .... i still don't understand what you see in that bedouin ... look at the mess he and his foolwers have made on earth - it is worse than plant u-3450 in galaxy m-32 which is full of nasty jinns and the vicious hajooj and the mahjooj ......... how do you manage to make such a mess of things when you are the almighty, the all-knowing, the all-everything ?

al-lah (ruffling the feathers on gabby's head): come here, my little angel - are you jealous?

gabby: you aree damn right, i am! .... i have spent eons worshipping you and running errands for you and taking the wax out of your ears and you love him more than you love me !

al-lah (looking a little sad, his single eye drooping in the middle of his vast forehead) gabby, you know i work in mysterios and wonderous ways .... there is always a good reaosn why i do things even if sometimes, i foreget it myself ..... i know there is a good reason why i chose muhammad as my beloved and last prophet ......

gabby (jumping up): last prophet! ... are you sure about that?... if he is the last prophet then why did you make me go and talk to mirza ghulam ahmed and joseph smith and that naked guy who sits under the pipal tree in pindora throwing feces at people walking by ? ... why?

al-lah ( smiling ): did i do that?

gabby (exasperated): don't give me that!... i know you are a gazillion eons old, but you don't forget anything .... remember you are god, you created yourself out of nothing

al-lah: nothing? ... what is that?

gabby: now don't try to skirt the subject - why do you love mo of mecca more than you love me? .... i am here all the time, taking care of your needs, running errands, washing your feet ... gabby do this-gabby do that, while he is there behind that door cavorting with seventy virgins and you know how many pretty boys ! ....... and if that is okay, then why did you destroy sodom and gamorrah ...

al-lah (looking a little worried): gabby, are you okay? ... i have never seen you like this ..... you know that i know everything and that there is a good reason i do what i do ... no? ... i have been a father to you .. when you asked me to throw out iblees and put you in charge of the mail, didn't i do it? when you asked me to destroy the klingons and dismatle the united federation of planets, didn't i do it? ...... tell me, what do you want?

gabby: i want you get rid of masadi and love me more than you love mo ... that's all i want, and that last peyote pakora .....

al-lah mian (picking up the pakora with his sole finger and popping it into gabby's beak): there! ... you know i love you more than anyone .... i was just messing with the humans when i told them that he was my beloved - you know that kind of thing doesn't float my boat ... if it wasn't for the wine i would have destroyed san francisco a long time ago .........

gabby (happily muching on the pakora): oh al-lah mian, i love you so ..... i am sorry for doubting your infinte wisdom ...

al-lah: now, who is this masadi guy ?

Re: # 13
Dear Laddu,

Still bitter? If reading all about deviant saints amounts to 'not having any idea', then I'm guilty of only one thing: not joining the ranks of their admirers!

Quick, now show me how to whirl.

Shanti.

Re: # 20
"It is actually based upon a hadith qudsi (these are extra-koranic revelations from Allah directly to his Beloved Prophet Muhammad"

Extra-Quranic revelations? What extra, if not the Sufi Cola, are you referring to Mr.Naqshbandi? Surely, you don't believe that the Quran is incomplete?

The first step is to label men's conflicting utterings as 'sahih', then wear wooly clothes, and finally mislead simple folks by mystic esoteric meanings! What a death-trap? Go to the SOURCE please; you won't regret it.

Haqq yes, 'an al-haqq' no!

Re: # 50

Thanks for the insight! I know who I am; I have been a non-believer since I was 14/15 and never had time for the religious claptrap. This aversion, however, extends to most things super-natural and Islam is by no means singled out in my mind as I tried to explain in my earlier comment. I feel this pretentious Religion of Sufism is just as dangerous as it allows for a continuum of the super-natural theme and is in sharp contrast with rationalism.

This "M" crap is even more annoying; just what the hell does it mean? Just because one can put forward some reasonably coherent and grammatically correct sentence, it doesn't make it a valid argument for anything for crying out loud!

I feel the dogma of "faith" should be completely demolished for good, but with reasoning not rhetoric. I live an intellectually fulfilled life which is morally sound, but that morality comes from within; its part of being human. It has nothing whatsoever to do with trying to suck up to some higher being, but comes from simply treating others like one wishes to be treated oneself.

Sufis were essentially atheists hiding behind the veil of pantheism! All this non-sense of god living in all of us or living in the human heart, or god being the universe and vice versa (wahdat-ul-wujud etc) were just ploys to try to explain it all. With advances in scientific knowledge, it is now possible to be intellectually fulfilled without this rubbish. And for those who say that science doesn't have answers for everything, well if science can't explain something then what makes you think that you can! The substitute for rational thinking CANNOT BE fairytales and ancient mythology!

For those who confuse all this and start harping on about "the golden age of islam"; what the hell has that golden age to do with Islam? Its like trying to give the credit for current science to Judeo-Christian mythology! The two could not be at more opposite ends of the spectrum!

Re: # 30
al-Ghazzali and Ibn Arabi and your own profile makes sense now!

Those who place themselves above the prophets, claim to know the secrets or possess powers, only mislead mankind. Their cases are well-documented, thank you.

Burn that wooly garb now.

Re: # 44
Untrue! Want to know how old she really was?

tahir #51, laddu bhai addressed that specific remark to me. He is sure I am a Muslim, and as a Muslim, like you, I don't understand Sufism as perfectly, as he, as a good Hindu, does.
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"Sufis were essentially atheists hiding behind the veil of pantheism!"

akcheema, you are right in that Sufism is only a means. But as a means it is put to many more uses than that.

Non-Muslims who are caught within Muslim lands or Muslim surroundings use Sufism to pass off as Muslims. Muslim lay people who for whatever reasons find themselves among non-Muslims and don't wish to seem like Muslims use sufism. Muslim scholars and committed people use sufism to ease non-Muslims' interface and interaction with Islam. Lazy people and people lacking discipline use it naturally as a means of escape.

Multiple uses. What's common is that nobody other than good Hindus and some totally deluded western liberals considers sufism as the ultimate goal, or anything more than a means to other more important goals.

Naqshbandi is a good Muslim who would find it hard, if not impossible, to be a good Muslim without sufism and its love. (Naqsh, that is an assumption. If you disagree, please let us know.)

Re: # 53

akcheema,

.... i feel your pain, but there is nothing you or i can do about this 'claptrap' ..... religion, like prostitution is a big industry and as long as there is a demand for it we will have to put up with it ...... although, unlike prostitution which provides an essential service, i don't see any real value in religion ...... so we will have to live with it - it is like living with hemmaroids; once in a while they flare up but most of the time they are just a pain in the rear .......

........ but i wouldn't throw out santa claus and the tooth fairy with the aab-i-zamzam ...... they can be fun - egg nog for the adults, and shiny dollars for the kids .......

Re: # 56

eklavya,

.... so sufism is a "means"? .... a means to what? ... a means to finding 'god'? ....and why do we need to do that? if he wants to find us, i am sure he has our address ....... it seems that you are suggesting that sufism is like a drug - a hallucinogen ..... if that is the case i am okay with it since i support the legalization of all drugs .......

hamidm2, yes.

I must confess, at 36 years of age, this is the very first time I am participating in any web debate. I apologise if my inexperience shows.

Here are just some of the reasons the evil of "faith" has to be tackled head on:

In my part of the world (Pakistan), faith leads to inertia. The process of scientific thinking and progress has come to a complete standstill. There is no new independent thinking, something taken for granted in the west, and the same old "circular reasoning" continues since time immemorial.

There are real people that suffer, especially women. They live restricted and pathetic lives for the most part, and that is not all. The religious brainwashing is so complete that being submissive in that role is actually regarded a virtue by many and a passive acceptance of "fate" is universal.

I love my country! I feel that some serious attempts at liberating a few minds may go a long way in the future of the progression of rational thought in the "muslim" world.

The more people are exposed to genuine critique of Islam, the less they feel themselves to get involved in this discussion. When they see that all hell hasn't broken loose if I criticised Mohammed or his divine pal, it generates a kind of self-confidence in others.

Re: # 53

"Sufis were essentially atheists hiding behind the veil of pantheism! All this non-sense of god living in all of us or living in the human heart, or god being the universe and vice versa (wahdat-ul-wujud etc) were just ploys to try to explain it all."

As I said there are two types of Sufis - those who accpet the Shariah and Sunnat in toto an the other who do not.
The statement you make above is with reference to the hindu/non-muslim ascetics pretending to be muslims when surrounding by Islamic gulangs.
The first types are Naqshabandis - who infact ran away from Akbar's darbar to Afghanistan and started bad mouthing him when he started his own din-e-Aql. Naqshabandi accept Sunnat in toto and are actually darbari sufis!!

akcheema: #60

You are doing quite well. At age 36, you are critically probing the issues which majority of the Muslims are afraid even to think about.

Let me see what I was doing at age 36. I was more than half way through with my Ph.D. work, I had published my first research paper in the Proceedings of American Society of Civil Engineering,and was thinking of other problems in my line of research. I had critically thought on religion (like you) but had shelved it so that I could focus on my research interests without any distraction. I hadn't written anything about religion at that time and wouldn't do it for another 25 years or so.

I have written several articles on Science and the Muslim world at Chowk. One of these is:

Decline of Science in the Muslim World
Mohammad Gill September 1, 2005

You might be interested to read it.

I wish you well.

Mohammad Gill

laddu, didn't know of actual Hindu/non-Muslim ascetics using sufism to pretend being Muslims. But that would be consistent with expectation, Sufism being purely a means to other politico-religious ends.

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akcheema, welcome. I can give you the perspective of an outsider.

Faith, so long as it is not focused totally on annhilating of the self, as sufism obviously is, need not be destructive.

Real religion can have very positive impact. Islam itself certainly doesn't stop scientific inquiry by or progress for those who agree to abide by its clear guidance. But it does provide a unique and comprehensive moral/ethical framework (for scientific inquiry, as for all other aspects of life) that demands adherence. It doesnt seem to be very kind to those hyper-smart people who instead of following it (or rejecting it by becoming non-Muslims), seek to insult it by putting their own desires into it.

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