Drama of Succession - Pakistan People’s Party

Re: # 140

May concur with your views on Gandhi BUT does not change the fact J man was not the secular dude you potray to be.

J was a loser till Islam khatre main.

Sanatani

Manto when I'm talking about the well know indisputed facts of very recent history, you don't need to quote authorities though I have done quite a bit of that regarding the writings of ZAB. IT is like asking me for an authority quote to "prove" that Benazir was killed. Come on are you so pathetic in the face of these posts that this is the best you can come up with? And you expect us to believe you BS just because you throw a western name up, and you want to take away from the supreme political achievements of a man based on some dinner and chicken story? and say that his foolish daughter was somehow a greater leader than him. You're becomming immoral and idiotic by the minute, give it up or you and Anil will be in the same boat of retards.

A lesson on WW2 for the fool who is posting on it:

(quote)The U.S. government imposed military conscription in 1940 and got the draft machinery moving early in 1942. Between 1940 and 1944, the size of the military increased by almost 11 million people. Of the 16 million people who were in uniform at some time during World War II, fully 10 million were conscripted. (For more on this, see Robert Higgs, "Wartime Prosperity? A Reassessment of the U.S. Economy in the 1940s.") In other words, they had "jobs" because the alternative was jail. And many of the 6 million who volunteered were what military manpower economists call "draft-induced." One can hardly judge people to be better off, based on their having jobs, if they were forced into these jobs.(end quote)David Henderson, "The Myth of US prosperity during WW2).

PS: So don't quote a western source. How about Indian sources? From the leftist JNU? Or H M Seervai? or Shashi Tharoor? SK Majumdar (no relation to our good friend here I am told)? Raj Mohan Gandhi the grandson of Mohandas Gandhi himself ... Sumit Sarkar? Or even your divine Zulfikar Ali Bhutto's countless essays on Pakistan and its creation...

And if they are lying for some weird reason... how about Ayesha Jalal? Is there anyone good enough for you?

Masadi,

My friend, you've not produced a single logical argument other than declare victory again and again without debating point by point. Other than regurgitating rhetorical bravado, you seriously have not even made an effort to enter into a dialogue or discussion. Now either you know what you've written is nonsense or you are oblivious to this fact. If it is the latter I pity you.

IN #147 read "American contribution to WW2 by the number of soldiers was miniscuel and still most of those doing the dying disproportionaltely, were those that were even denied full citizenship"

as

"American contribution to WW2 by the number of soldiers killedwas miniscuel and still most of those doing the dying disproportionaltely, were those that were even denied full citizenship

Manto writes : "How about substantiating your claim ... instead of making statements which are not rooted in reality."

Every post of mine is substantiated with reasons given, otherwise I do not make a post. I don't have to quote a western source because I don't think they are authorities on our history and I am not a third rate slave of them like Santani (the pig face-his words). You cannot deny that MAJ was the face of the Pakistani partition and its rhetoric, which caused bloodshed, you nor any western name can deny that. You cannot deny that PPP due to ZAB became a political force, nationwide, a real voice of the people. You cannot deny these basic facts, asking me to substantiate them is like asking why 1+1 is 2- substantiate this, fool.

Santani when you develop brains enough to argue with me then we can talk, the fact is that minorities and people from the lower socioeconomic classes are disproportionaltely staffed in those figting on the front lines, casualties even when the draf was instituted were disproportionate among the African Americans and even the members of the non-elite upper classes that get drafted can easily dodge it, or get cushy positions. American contribution to WW2 by the number of soldiers was miniscuel and still most of those doing the dying disproportionaltely, were those that were even denied full citizenship and segregated even in war, the African Americans- nothing of this nature was practiced by the Arabs in the Arab Israeli wars, US society changed after WW2 to where the elite consolidated the spoils, class based representation in the US military is very much pronounced and only a fool with your kind of dumb mentality will deny it..now go F yourself.

Re: # 144

How about substantiating your claim ... instead of making statements which are not rooted in reality.

Majumdar,

Thanks.

You may be well aware that my blaming the other side is a tit for tat to the kind of abuse and baseless accusations levelled from the Indian side. I am only showing you that I can make an even stronge case.

But for what its worth, all historians are now in agreement that it was Lord Mountbatten's hasty withdrawal as well as his deliberate obfuscation on the boundary commission award that was responsible for the violence. He was warned against it by Jinnah and Gandhi several times. As Wolpert writes in his "Shameful flight" ... "had mountbatten listened to India's wisest leaders Quaid-e-Azam and Mahatma much of the bloodshed could have been avoided". I don't agree with his characterization of Gandhi as the wisest leader, but I for one don't impeach Gandhi's intentions like Indians impeach Jinnah's ... even though we know full well that Jinnah was by far the most scrupulous and incorruptible politician of them all.

I hope that clarifies my point.

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Re: # 135

Ok pig face enlighten us by elaborating on the following "you first have to understand who they are before you can pontificate that someone is a member of that group"

Ok tell us who is a member of that group? Abe ma ke dalle Over 177 Senators and Congressmen of US sent their sons and some daughters almost without exception who were eligible for the front to fight in WWII. The recruitment lines at every American universityof the elite were so long that some students (who were studying critical subjects like engineering and languages) and otherwise would have joined as foot soldiers in the infantry were drafted as reservist officers and forced to complete their courses so as to be of gr8r value. Some still deserted and joined up as foot soldiers anyway under false names or went to the American Legion (Americans who volunteered to fight under British command and were officered by a mixture of Brits and Ameicans).

You have had 4 wars with the Israelis tell me how many princes of the Royal houses of Islam fought in those wars. Compare that with the elite of the British house of Lords still and see the difference. Prince Andrew did active service in Falklands in 1981 serving abaord HMS Ark Royal.

The elite of Islam are only good at goading the poor unwashed masses of their country (and in our parts the muslais are really unwashed and smelly) to Jihad and slit the throats of unarmed non muslims whether in Cyprus, Pakistan, India, Bangaldesh or Palestine.

Sardaron or Hinduon ne ek sabak sikhaya 47 main, Yahudion ne 48 main, Sarbian no 96 mein aur ab Anglo Amreeki 2001 se samjha rahein hai.

And the day the abdul turns against you he will get a masih to drtench you with the fat of swine and burn you alive.

Guys watch this space.

Sanatani

Masadi,

(Nationalization is the way to make industry fluorish in developing, primary product countries)

There is no evidence to back up that. Taiwan, South Korea all became big becuase of domestic pvt enterprise while China has become big only after it embraced FDI. You can add Chile to the list. What has been the track record of companies post nationalisation?

(Regarding ZABs personal landholdings, that is not my concern - institution making)

I am surprised that a left leaning person like you does not recognise the primacy of land reforms in promoting development in predominantly rural countries. FYI, land reforms were carried out in most East Asian tigers.

And what institutions did ZAB create? To the best of my knowledge the only institution he created was the Political Cell in ISI (which ironically may have been responsible for his own and his sons and daughters' deaths) (Much like Mrs. G creations the Khalistanis and LTTE took her own and her son's life).

(The history of the MAJ that manto makes up is the absolvement of him from any responsibility regarding the massacres that took place)

YLH is right on his money about that. MAJ (pbuh) being responsible for the carnage is a malicious charge levelled against him mainly by Injun and Hanuds, who could not stomach the fact that not only did India break up (mainly due to his indomitable willpower) but also that Pak has lasted so long. Yes, he is wrong when he similarly blames INC and MKG for massacres in Indian Punjab, which too I have debunked. I have discussed this on Mr. Ras's thread and the issue of Partition violence has been discussed very often on chowk. The main culprit was the premature ejaculation of the Brits (at Lord M's bad advice) and the sheer unpreparedness of the leaders of the successor states.

What was the colonial motive in the creation of Pakistan when a united India wud have been a better bulwark against Soviet expansionism.

Regards

Majumdar,

The fact of the matter is that Masadi has admitted on several occasions that he doesn't have the time to read anything and invents history in his head. What I've written are facts of history. And on Jinnah being an independent mind... I was quoting PavoCavalry who Masadi considers the Gospel truth.


Unfortunately, Masadi doesn't have the decency nor the grace to admit when he is wrong. Nor was he brought up in a family that taught him manners or to tell the truth.

In retrospect, Masadi is probably the number 1 reason Jinnah was wrong in making Pakistan. One can only imagine what sewer he would have ended up in instead of posing as an intellectual, had we been living in United India.

Re: # 129

Why do facts bother you so much Jayp? What I've written are the facts and nothing else.

Patwardhan is not the only person with this view. Almost everyone who has read history objectively concurs with my view.

Sanatani,

Please check your facts.

Jinnah was in the Congress from 1906 onwards and joined the League in 1913. He was asked by Gokhale to join and turn League from a loyalist to a nationalist organization. Jinnah joined and Muslim League adopted self rule as its aim. Before the 1936 however the League was a debating society.