Pervez Musharraf and India Pakistan Rapproachment

Re: # 243

I don't know the mechanics behind calculating GDP. What I can tell you is, whatever output the rural population provides is grossly undervalued. For egs, the produce of farmers cannot be priced by him. He does not have the liberty of costing and spelling out the margin. Adding to the market volatility that decides the commodity prices, there are restrictions on transporting the produce from one state to another. In short, the farmer does not decide where to sell and the price. In a way the farmers subsidize the lives of the rest of the population. When onion prices skyrocketed, farmers stood to gain. The then Vajpayee government promptly banned the export of onions. Farmers gulped this as they need no propitiation.

Sorry if you were looking for a riposte.

#243 Posted by zeemax on March 1, 2008 1:38:54 am


still stand by 2010? or it's now sooner or later?

anil #231 do you recall when you wrote that article? or have a link to it?

beyond-pathetic jayp #241 "I have said that several times,I am on chowk to do some paki-bashing, .."

And I have said several times that writing crap on chowk is not "bashing". Although for the measly little man that you probably are, this is the closest you can come to bashing anyone other than your patni jee. :-)

"..more so because there is nothing in common. "

and thank God for that.

#242 Posted by jayp,

india has written off 15 billion of farmers loans

So the commies whacking monkey cops by the dozens has had some effect. Good. Soon you'll have to write ALL of them off.

But bhindia is the only weird place where 70% of the populace gets 2.6% of economic growth while the balance gets 9%. So this 15 billion is a nice lollypop which may keep the rural bhindis quiet for a while.

Another fundamental indo apk difference

from dawn of today

Underlying the wheat crisis is the second deficit with respect to the erosion of the integrity of economic data. The fact is that the position of the director-general of the Federal Bureau of Statistics (FBS) – the country’s principal data collection agency – has been left vacant since June 2003, raising questions across the board about the accuracy of data. Allegedly, the absence of the organisation’s head allowed senior finance ministry officials to pressure lower ranking FBS officials into doctoring the data.

Allegedly again, it is understood that the regime’s fetish with showing high GDP growth rates led it to ‘demand’ that output figures be padded upwards somewhat. Accordingly, it appears that while food ministry officials ‘prepared’ the estimates of wheat output, commerce ministry officials — unaware of the extent of the padding – used the estimates to allow export of wheat. The shortage signals that went out in the market from the belated realisation that initial announcement of a bumper crop were incorrect laid the basis for the crisis to erupt.

Pathetic tahmed,

I have said that several times, I am on chowk to do some paki-bashing, more so because there is nothing in common. I have said before, pakistanis are only homo-erectus and have not reached the homo sapien status, as evidenced by the law and order situation in pakistan and no one is complaining about it.

Today india has written off 15 billion of farmers loans while for a mere 1 billion a year, teh pak army is killing their own citizens with helicopter gunships in waziristan. The paki mind is no different from that of homo erctus, pakistanis appear to be human, they are bipeds that is all, and hence no similarity in terms of values with the indians.

Now please please do not come back with how handsome the paki are story.

STFU, grease up and bend over...

US experts expect army push in Tribal Areas

WASHINGTON: Pakistan’s military appears to be preparing for a new tribal-area offensive against the Taliban leader Baitullah Mehsud, US officials and experts say. “I can’t point to anything in the past that equates to that,� an official said, adding that General Ashfaq Kayani appeared to have brought greater focus to operations since taking over as army chief in November from President Pervez Musharraf. “Baitullah has gone and got himself so visible. He wants to kind of consolidate all of the FATA underneath his control, and because he’s sticking out so far, the Pakistanis are going to hammer him down,� said a US defence official. It was not clear whether Pakistan would attempt to capture or kill Mehsud, US experts said. But the military is constrained from launching an all-out offensive that could risk a backlash from tribes in the region. reuters

kashmir banega pakistan!!!


Inflation increases by 15.3 per cent

SHAHBAZ RANA
ISLAMABAD - The inflation for the poorest of the poor has mushroomed by 15.3 per cent during the current week as compared to the corresponding period of the last year.
Official statistics show that by February 28, weekly price indicator for income group of up to Rs 3,000 augmented by 15.26 per cent in comparison with the same period of last February. It grew by 0.65 per cent as against the previous week of the current month.
Federal Bureau of Statistics bulletin also depicts an increase in the rates of 37 essential kitchen items over the year. On week-on-week basis 24 items’ prices increased while decline was shown in eight. The major increase was in the prices of edible oils, rice, wheat, flour and tomatoes. The weekly indicator-Sensitive Price Index (SPI) covers 53 essential items that are mostly being consumed by the poor strata.

Far from india being bled by kashmir, the indian economy is on a tear...India still spends a smaller % on it's military than pakiland and a larger % on education than pakiland..

in a matter of speaking, this long overdue increase in india's military budget was made possible by kargil...so it was a twofer...pakiland got an ass whooping and the government's attention turned to increasing defense spending...

India hikes defence spendings by 10pc

NEW DELHI (AFP) - India on Friday jacked up defence spending by 10 percent to 26.4 billion dollars, the steepest hike since independence to fund a mammoth modernisation programme.
Finance Minister Palaniappan Chidambaram boosted expenditure for the fiscal year ending March 2009 from the previous allocation of 24 billion dollars, saying security was of paramount importance.
India plans to spend at least 30 billion dollars until 2012 to modernise the military with an immediate purchase of 126 war jets costing 12 billion dollars followed by ships, submarines, artillery and other hardware in coming years.

Re: # 231

Tahmed Sahib:

A few years ago I had written an essay that was published here on devolution of power in India. Devolution of power right down to manageable and sustainable GDP level is important. Any other thing creates unnecessary bureaucracy and politics. Government is then everywhere, this in Indian scene translate to corruption.

I am in all favor of devolution of power. Interestingly, India over the last 18 years has evolved a mechanism through coalition and common minimum program. I know in India's case 50% of GDP is controlled within its state. Nothing central government can do about it.

Re: # 232 HP

I read Stuka's post and agree with him on both counts (CTBT and the BJP election plank), although he did not provide an elaborate explanation for the motives behind testing that I did (i.e why did BJP chose to differentiate itself from the other parties in wanting to test?). As I pointed out, 'nationalist Hinduism' aside, there were other plausible reasons to test. Can you point out where my facts are wrong? I'd be more than happy to defend or correct them.

Before you conclude that, 'is true that nuke tests were a nationalist Hindu or otherwise agenda for BJP and that was the sole reason for the tests', I recommend that you ask yourself if (a) Indira Gandhi was a 'nationalist Hindu' or from the BJP? and (b) if Narasimha Rao was a 'nationalist Hindu' since he wanted to test too when he was PM?

Manto -- Toba Tek Singh
Translated from Urdu by Murphy


Two or three years after Partition, the governments of Pakistan and India decided to exchange lunatics in the same way that they had exchanged civilian prisoners. In other words, Muslim lunatics in Indian madhouses would be sent to Pakistan, while Hindu and Sikh lunatics in Pakistani madhouses would be handed over to India.

I can't say whether this decision made sense or not. In any event, a date for the lunatic exchange was fixed after high level conferences on both sides of the border. All the details were carefully worked out. On the Indian side, Muslim lunatics with relatives in India would be allowed to stay. The remainder would be sent to the frontier. Here in Pakistan nearly all the Hindus and Sikhs were gone, so the question of retaining non-Muslim lunatics did not arise. All the Hindu and Sikh lunatics would be sent to the frontier in police custody.

I don't know what happened over there. When news of the lunatic exchange reached the madhouse here in Lahore, however, it became an absorbing topic of discussion among the inmates. There was one Muslim lunatic who had read the newspaper Zamindar1 every day for twelve years. One of his friends asked him: "Maulvi Sahib! What is Pakistan?" After careful thought he replied: "It's a place in India where they make razors."

Hearing this, his friend was content.

One Sikh lunatic asked another Sikh: "Sardar ji, why are they sending us to India? We don't even speak the language."

"I understand the Indian language," the other replied, smiling. "Indians are devilish people who strut around haughtily," he added.

While bathing, a Muslim lunatic shouted "Long live Pakistan!" with such vigor that he slipped on the floor and knocked himself out.

There were also some lunatics who weren't really crazy. Most of these inmates were murderers whose families had bribed the madhouse officials to have them committed in order to save them from the hangman's noose. These inmates understood something of why India had been divided, and they had heard of Pakistan. But they weren't all that well informed. The newspapers didn't tell them a great deal, and the illiterate guards who looked after them weren't much help either. All they knew was that there was a man named Mohammed Ali Jinnah, whom people called the Qaid-e-Azem. He had made a separate country for the Muslims, called Pakistan. They had no idea where it was, or what its boundaries might be. This is why all the lunatics who hadn't entirely lost their senses were perplexed as to whether they were in Pakistan or India. If they were in India, then where was Pakistan? If they were in Pakistan, then how was it that the place where they lived had until recently been known as India?

One lunatic got so involved in this India/Pakistan question that he became even crazier. One day he climbed a tree and sat on one of its branches for two hours, lecturing without pause on the complex issues of Partition. When the guards told him to come down, he climbed higher. When they tried to frighten him with threats, he replied: "I will live neither in India nor in Pakistan. I'll live in this tree right here!" With much difficulty, they eventually coaxed him down. When he reached the ground he wept and embraced his Hindu and Sikh friends, distraught at the idea that they would leave him and go to India.

One man held an M.S. degree and had been a radio engineer. He kept apart from the other inmates, and spent all his time walking silently up and down a particular footpath in the garden. After hearing about the exchange, however, he turned in his clothes and ran naked all over the grounds.

There was one fat Muslim lunatic from Chiniot who had been an enthusiastic Muslim League activist. He used to wash fifteen or sixteen times a day, but abandoned the habit overnight. His name was Mohammed Ali. One day he announced that he was the Qaid-e-Azem, Mohammed Ali Jinnah. Seeing this, a Sikh lunatic declared himself to be Master Tara Singh. Blood would have flowed, except that both were reclassified as dangerous lunatics and confined to separate quarters.

There was also a young Hindu lawyer from Lahore who had gone mad over an unhappy love affair. He was distressed to hear that Amritsar was now in India, because his beloved was a Hindu girl from that city. Although she had rejected him, he had not forgotten her after losing his mind. For this reason he cursed the Muslim leaders who had split India into two parts, so that his beloved remained Indian while he became Pakistani.

When news of the exchange reached the madhouse, several lunatics tried to comfort the lawyer by telling him that he would be sent to India, where his beloved lived. But he didn't want to leave Lahore, fearing that his practice would not thrive in Amritsar.

In the European Ward there were two Anglo-Indian lunatics. They were very worried to hear that the English had left after granting independence to India. In hushed tones, they spent hours discussing how this would affect their situation in the madhouse. Would the European Ward remain, or would it disappear? Would they be served English breakfasts? What, would they be forced to eat poisonous bloody Indian chapattis instead of bread?

One Sikh had been an inmate for fifteen years. He spoke a strange language of his own, constantly repeating this nonsensical phrase: "Upri gur gur di annexe di be-dhiyan o mung di daal of di lalteen."2 He never slept. According to the guards, he hadn't slept a wink in fifteen years. Occasionally, however, he would rest by propping himself against a wall.

His feet and ankles had become swollen from standing all the time, but in spite of these physical problems he refused to lie down and rest. He would listen with great concentration whenever there was discussion of India, Pakistan and the forthcoming lunatic exchange. Asked for his opinion, he would reply with great seriousness: "Upri gur gur di annexe di be-dhiyana di mung di daal of di Pakistan gornament."3

Later he replaced "of di Pakistan gornament" with "of di Toba Tek Singh gornament." He also started asking the other inmates where Toba Tek Singh was, and to which country it belonged. But nobody knew whether it was in Pakistan or India. When they argued the question they only became more confused. After all, Sialkot had once been in India, but was apparently now in Pakistan. Who knew whether Lahore, which was now in Pakistan, might not go over to India tomorrow? Or whether all of India might become Pakistan? And was there any guarantee that both Pakistan and India would not one day vanish altogether?

This Sikh lunatic's hair was unkempt and thin. Because he washed so rarely, his hair and beard had matted together, giving him a frightening appearance. But he was a harmless fellow. In fifteen years, he had never fought with anyone.

The attendants knew only that he owned land in Toba Tek Singh district. Having been a prosperous landlord, he suddenly lost his mind. So his relatives bound him with heavy chains and sent him off to the madhouse.

His family used to visit him once a month. After making sure that he was in good health, they would go away again. These family visits continued for many years, but they stopped when the India/Pakistan troubles began.

This lunatic's name was Bashan Singh, but everyone called him Toba Tek Singh. Although he had very little sense of time, he seemed to know when his relatives were coming to visit. He would tell the officer in charge that his visit was impending. On the day itself he would wash his body thoroughly and comb and oil his hair. Then he would put on his best clothes and go to meet his relatives.

If they asked him any question he would either remain silent or say: "Upri gur gur di annexe di be-dhiyana di mung di daal of di laaltein."

Bashan Singh had a fifteen-year-old daughter who grew by a finger's height every month. He didn't recognize her when she came to visit him. As a small child, she used to cry whenever she saw her father. She continued to cry now that she was older.

When the Partition problems began, Bashan Singh started asking the other lunatics about Toba Tek Singh. Since he never got a satisfactory answer, his concern deepened day by day.

Then his relatives stopped visiting him. Formerly he could predict their arrival, but now it was as though the voice inside him had been silenced. He very much wanted to see those people, who spoke to him sympathetically and brought gifts of flowers, sweets and clothing. Surely they could tell him whether Toba Tek Singh was in Pakistan or India. After all, he was under the impression that they came from Toba Tek Singh, where his land was.

There was another lunatic in that madhouse who thought he was God. One day, Bashan Singh asked him whether Toba Tek Singh was in Pakistan or India. Guffawing, he replied: "Neither, because I haven't yet decided where to put it!"

Bashan Singh begged this "God" to resolve the status of Toba Tek Singh and thus end his perplexity. But "God" was far too busy to deal with this matter because of all the other orders that he had to give. One day Bashan Singh lost his temper and shouted: "Upri gur gur di annexe di be-dhiyana di mung di daal of wahay Guru ji wa Khalsa and wahay Guru ji ki fatah. Jo bolay so nahal sat akal!"

By this he might have meant: "You are the God of the Muslims. If you were a Sikh God then you would certainly help me."

A few days before the day of the exchange, one of Bashan Singh's Muslim friends came to visit from Toba Tek Singh. This man had never visited the madhouse before. Seeing him, Bashan Singh turned abruptly and started walking away. But the guard stopped him.

"He's come to visit you. It's your friend Fazluddin," the guard said.

Glancing at Fazluddin, Bashan Singh muttered a bit. Fazluddin advanced and took him by the elbow. "I've been planning to visit you for ages, but I haven't had the time until now," he said. "All your relatives have gone safely to India. I helped them as much as I could. Your daughter Rup Kur . . ."

Bashan Singh seemed to remember something. "Daughter Rup Kur," he said.

Fazluddin hesitated, and then replied: "Yes, she's . . . she's also fine. She left with them."

Bashan Singh said nothing. Fazluddin continued: "They asked me to make sure you were all right. Now I hear that you're going to India. Give my salaams to brother Balbir Singh and brother Wadhada Singh. And to sister Imrat Kur also . . . Tell brother Balbir Singh that I'm doing fine. One of the two brown cows that he left has calved. The other one calved also, but it died after six days. And . . . and say that if there's anything else I can do for them, I'm always ready. And I've brought you some sweets."

Bashan Singh handed the package over to the guard. "Where is Toba Tek Singh?" he asked.

Fazluddin was taken aback. "Toba Tek Singh? Where is it? It's where it's always been," he replied.

"In Pakistan or in India?" Bashan Singh persisted.

Fazluddin became flustered. "It's in India. No no, Pakistan."

Bashan Singh walked away, muttering: "Upar di gur gur di annexe di dhiyana di mung di daal of di Pakistan and Hindustan of di dar fatay mun!"

Finally all the preparations for the exchange were complete. The lists of all the lunatics to be transferred were finalized, and the date for the exchange itself was fixed.

The weather was very cold. The Hindu and Sikh lunatics from the Lahore madhouse were loaded into trucks under police supervision. At the Wahga border post, the Pakistani and Indian officials met each other and completed the necessary formalities. Then the exchange began. It continued all through the night.

It was not easy to unload the lunatics and send them across the border. Some of them didn't even want to leave the trucks. Those who did get out were hard to control because they started wandering all over the place. When the guards tried to clothe those lunatics who were naked, they immediately ripped the garments off their bodies. Some cursed, some sang, and others fought. They were crying and talking, but nothing could be understood. The madwomen were creating an uproar of their own. And it was cold enough to make your teeth chatter.

Most of the lunatics were opposed to the exchange. They didn't understand why they should be uprooted and sent to some unknown place. Some, only half-mad, started shouting "Long live Pakistan!" Two or three brawls erupted between Sikh and Muslim lunatics who became enraged when they heard the slogans.

When Bashan Singh's turn came to be entered in the register, he spoke to the official in charge. "Where is Toba Tek Singh?" he asked. "Is it in Pakistan or India?"

The official laughed. "It's in Pakistan," he replied.

Hearing this, Bashan Singh leapt back and ran to where his remaining companions stood waiting. The Pakistani guards caught him and tried to bring him back to the crossing point, but he refused to go.

"Toba Tek Singh is here!" he cried. Then he started raving at top volume: "Upar di gur gur di annexe di be-dhiyana mang di daal of di Toba Tek Singh and Pakistan!"

The officials tried to convince him that Toba Tek Singh was now in India. If by some chance it wasn't they would send it there directly, they said. But he wouldn't listen.

Because he was harmless, the guards let him stand right where he was while they got on with their work. He was quiet all night, but just before sunrise he screamed. Officials came running from all sides. After fifteen years on his feet, he was lying face down on the ground. India was on one side, behind a barbed wire fence. Pakistan was on the other side, behind another fence. Toba Tek Singh lay in the middle, on a piece of land that had no name.

Re: # 233

Your hate filled verbosity, like Ganesh Mutants, Mother Burners, besides your abusive language is littered here.

This post of yours shows your mind. Now you have nothing else to say so you say HBS, like a mullah's ranting of higher authority, Allah.

You present nonsense here on proliferation to Kashmir and expected buyers. Instead you saw your own image in the mirror, and started ranting HBS.

If you did not achieve your dream or did not have a dream, it is not my fault. I knew what my dreams were and I also know what I achieved and not achieved, and I worked to get there. Yes, HBS, HP Mian. Your nonsense regarding this only shows jealousy of a failed man. Out of goodness of my heart, I can meet you there in the fall centennial celebrations. I can take you along, if you would prefer.

Your narcissistic obsession and compulsion in your pico, nano, micro analysis, and abuse only brings your hatred out. Never be afraid to see yourself in the mirror, preferring to abuse others only makes you more miserable.

In case you need reminding, you started abusing me. Your threat to me to make my life miserable (paraphrasing is mine) here on Chowk is on record here. Your name calling Ganesh Mutants, Mother Burners earned you a warning and you could not post for 24 hours. These are your foot prints HP Mian. Mine indeed touched HBS.

#215 Posted by anil

You are well aware that I try and avoid reading your posts and I had mentioned it to you a longtime ago. I am not surprised that my statement hurt your ego and since then you leave no opportunity pass by to abuse me. I further caught you lying about your stated Harvard Business school credentials. That too hurt you profoundly.

I have known and worked with many HBS graduates and have nothing but admiration for their skills in understanding issues, articulating responses, and effectively communicating their thought process. Even the most recent Graduates from that school show above referenced traits.

I would strongly recommend you send your posts to your former(imaginary) professors and get an opinion on what you write and how badly constructed your responses are on different issues. The horrendous amount of time you spend in writing long posts against me would be better spent, if you would pay attention to the issues and articulate responses to them.

Abusing me would never confirm to anyone that you are a Harvard Business school graduate, because you are not. This is the end of any conversation from me to you. You can go on your merry way to write absurd and abusive posts against me and If that makes you feel better and you feel that your posts are worthy of a HBS graduate, then more power to you.

#225 Posted by Pew_Research

If and when you write on serious issues like the nuke tests by India, you first need to fact check your posts. You failed to do that and you have been caught constructing a narrative based on false time lines and non existence motives.

“Recall, I said that ‘Gujral comes to mind’ – I could have also mentioned Rajiv Gandhi’s government.�

Do you even know how much gap was there between Gujral’s Premiership and Rajiv’s premiership? Phrases like “comes to mind� show that you have no facts on hand and just decided to conjure up a fairytale.

I would advise you to read Stuka’s post #214 which sufficiently and succinctly covers the motives for Indian nuke tests. Rests of the stories are just BS including your own.

#214 Posted by stuka

Hostility or not, I merely was challenging the made up story by puke_research. It is true that nuke tests were a nationalist Hindu or otherwise agenda for BJP and that was the sole reason for the tests. What happened afterwards was just the downstream reaction of a gigantic decision which India is still trying to recover from.