Pervez Musharraf and India Pakistan Rapproachment

I feel in total agreement with your thoughts about Musharaf & his efforts pertaining bilateral relations with India.
While he also accomplished on many other fronts nationally & internationally but he is not from the politicians breed and thus remains an unacceptable subject to their entity.
He is and will be remembered for his achievements for which only those who know co-existence and mutual regard will subscribe to.

#292 Posted by vengatramanan,

No Sir! The demand of the poor is in the most part inelastic.

zeemax sahib.Looters and Plunderers was also written in ealy 2003.It was published by Shaheen Sehbai in his US based web journal.It was later also put on the PPP website.

Re: # 291

More people getting poor does not look plausible, as it would contribute to the downward spiral of the aggregate demand and therefore deflation.

Zeemax,

On the surface, the only way to sustain looks like we have to maintain the expenditure at the current levels, which is not practically possible. There can be chinks in the formula:

Growth-(Population Increase + Inflation).

Let me think over it for some more time.

Anilji,

The food production can still be doubled in India as yield are very low. But that would require substantial investments and also liberalisation of the agricultural sector.

Water and land scarcity could become critical though and thus water and soil conservation should acquire topmost priority.

(within in the next 50 year period, india would again be a net importer)

It is of course quite possible that India could become a substantial net food importer by 2050 but that should not be a matter of concern if India's economy is large and mature enuff to absorb the burden. As Amartya da pointed out, people dont go hungry because there is no food but becuase they can't afford it. As an example, oil prices which were lower than US$30 till 2003 have touched US$100 but India hasn't gone bust-yet.

Regards

Re: # 288

Majumdar:

Purchasing power parity based calculations more accurately reflect the effect of inflation on growth numbers. Can you compare PPP based agri-business numbers.

A few years ago, commerce attache at consulate of India in San Francisco, made a very interesting point within in the next 50 year period, india would again be a net importer (Zeemax Sahib's population growth factor). He was involved previously with I believe FAO. He further mentioned that FAO has study to understand global trend would create be few countries, including - Canada, U.S., Argentina, Australia as net exporter of food and grain. China may be self sufficient, if not it will also be net importer too. Just as oil comes from few countries, food grain will come from concentrated areas.

This will be a new economic reality at the global level in the later half of 21st century. This did not considered global warming trends. The single biggest reason for this concentration will be water resources, and land grabbing due to industrialization.

Zee sahib,

Re: #287

OK. Lets assume the base year is 1990. Now if the growth is 2.6% in 2008 over 2007 it means the growth in real terms is 2.6% irrespective of what the inflation was in 2008. So if we adjust for inflation the nominal growth wud be (1.026*1.05)-1.

I think we will have to refer it to our resident mathematician Atif Payee for his final verdict.

Agri growth has been 3% or less throughout my lifetime (35 years) or at least as far I can remember it. While inflation has always been 10% or thereabouts (except maybe in recent years where it has been 5% or thereabouts).

So if I apply your formula and use the following assumptions:

Agri growth of 3.0%
Population growth of 1.5%
Inflation of ONLY 5%.

the real income of Injun farmers would have declined by close to 70% over my lifespan!!!

Regards

#286 Posted by majumdar,

majumdar saheb, the growth measure is on constant production prices of a given base year, while the change in inflation is year-on-year and follows no base year rule. If both the growth and the consumer inflation (and population increase) were measured against the same base year and netted out, the agri growth in India would actually turn out to be negative.

Think about it. This is the trick government statisticians play on you.

Zee sahib,

Re: 243

(So the commies whacking monkey cops by the dozens has had some effect. Good. Soon you'll have to write ALL of them off.)

The death of monkey cops had nothing to do with the write-offs. The killer of the monkey cops- the Naxals – have their support base among the poorest of poor tribals who have no access to any credit of any sort. So no bank loans to be written off either!!!

Re: 257

(the rural/agri growth is 2.6% for 70% of population, which after population growth of 1.4% leaves 1.2% to cover inflation, which is around 5%. Does it mean the vast majority of the entire population which is desperately poor is getting even poorer by 4% every year?)

I am surprised to see an economist make an elementary mistake like this. All growth figures are in real terms i.e. adjusted for inflation. Agri growth is indeed less than 3% but rural income include some non-agri income as well. Plus there is steady migration (year round or part of the year) to urban areas which relieves some amount of poverty. Having said that, it is true that growth is not inclusive and large masses of Injun population live in shameful levels of poverty.

Regards

Re: # 269

Pavo sahib:

"... and when this backlash is created India feels threatened. So India has to talk to USA ..."

You are putting too much importance to India. Traditionally, only after its economy had taken off the U.S. put India on its Radar. Prior to it, only Pakistan gave India such a prominent position in foreign policies and military strategies.

The U.S. could have called Indian PM to come and talk, someone would certainly fly DC to meet. However, when Nawaz reached DC on July 4th emergenct meeting, after Kargil, there was a speculation of camp David like diplomacy. Indian PM refused to meet Nawaz, out of whatever, and accepted to be available to Clinton on phone. Camp David never happened. That was a turning point in India-U.S. relations, and India-Pakistan relations. Pakistani Army accepted for the first time they cannot fight and win Kashmir. Ground reality changed even further after 9/11.

The U.S. never needed Pakistan as a wrench to twist India into talking.

HAHAHA....yatha raja, tatha praja...frikking morons..

APP adds: Caretaker Minister for Interior Lt Gen (r) Hamid Nawaz Khan Sunday said there are reports that Indian Intelligence Agency RAW was involved in violent incidents in the country.
“We are sure that RAW is involved and there was no doubt in it,” he told a private television.
He said terrorist activities could not be sustained for long period without the help of foreign elements and there was growing perception that there might also be some other countries which are involved in these activities.
About the recent Swat incident in which a police officer was martyred and later his funeral procession was also targeted by terrorists, he strongly condemned the incident and said it seems like personal enmity and hatred against the victim.

Re: # 282
Tahmed Sahib:

The following last lines got left out:

"There is a history of such happenings in France, where republics were trashed and re-established. You may like to get your answers from French republics."

Re: # 280

Tahmed sahib:

Issues you bring out are valid constitutional issues. Constitution of each country enshrines various guarantees for every citizen. Implementation, however, has varied in countries solely because how much respect responsible leaders show toward the constitution.

Habeas Corpus is a legal procedure that comes from the constitutional (fundamental rights as called in Indian constitution) rights. In Pakistan's case constitution has been suspended quite a few times.

Founding fathers of constitutional form of the government made a basic assumption that constitution is not violated and no one can suspend it.

It is above all citizens.

The emergency powers provisions are enough to deal with all emergencies. Only legislative branch is empowered to change (give more powers or give less powers) constitution, powers or acts that come from the constitution.

I did try to read the U.S. constitution and Indian constitution to find out what would have happened if someone did what Musharraff and three previous military leaders. Indira Gandhi acted within the emergency powers and manipulated the system to get President to declare emergency. She never suspended the constitution.

In Pakistan's case everything is suspended. Therefore answers are not clear, as the basis of the union or federation is trashed in Pakistan.

So what law? The rule then is that of tyranny and anarchy (Jiski lathi uski bhains) as I see.

New constitution that replaces this tyranny and anarchy would have answer to deal with the culprits, when power is restored.

Re: # 280 Tahmed

"...in the US constitution, the all-important "etc." (i.e. powers not specifically placed anywhere) are placed with the states. I am not sure what the situation is in the indian constitution...."

Through the Indian Constitution the states enjoy relative autonomy in India. There is autonomy in the legislative, executive as well as the judicial powers for the states of India. However, the autonomy is limited by clear powers that are vested on the Union. The division of the powers of the Union and the State can be traced to the distribution of the powers as stated by the three lists laid down by the Indian Constitution. Derived from the Australian constitution, these lists clearly divide the powers vested on the State and the Union. They are the Union List, the State List and the Concurrent List.

The Union List: Also referred to as List I, this list contains legislations, on which the Union enjoys exclusive control. Of the total 99 subjects that are included in the Union list, some are enlisted below:
Defence
Banking
Taxes
Coinage
Insurance
Currency
Union Duties
Foreign Affairs

The State List: This is the List II of the Indian Legislative. There are a total of 69 subjects in this particular list, all of which are exclusive legislative powers of the State. Some of the subjects enlisted in the State list are as follows:
Public Order and Police
State Taxes and Duties
Agriculture
Sanitation
Local governments
Forests
Fisheries
Public Health


The Concurrent List: This list contains 52 items, which are powers vested on the State as well as the Union. Some of the subjects included in the Concurrent List are as follows:
Economic and Social Planning
Criminal Law and Procedure
Civil Procedure
Torts
Trusts
Marriage
Education
Welfare and Labor
Contracts



However, in case there is any repugnance, the Union legislature will prevail over the State legislature. In case a State Law has already been reserved for the consent of the President, or if such an assent has already been granted, then the State Law will hold irrespective of the repugnance. However, the Parliament can override the Law through subsequent legislation.

The Residuary Powers are the legislative powers that fall in none of the above categories. The lists are usually exhaustive enough to include all possible subjects, and it is generally believed that the field of application will be very narrow. These powers are neither under the legislative powers of the State nor the Union, but is under the jurisdiction of the Judiciary.


source: http://www.mapsofindia.com/events/republic-day/India-union-states-relation.html

anil sahib #250 Thanks for the link. I read your article, which was very informative concerning the federal vs state relations in India.

I basically agree with your suggestion that the federal government should be limited to foreign affairs, defense and communications, buit think it leaves out an increasingly important issue - namely, basic human rights. The right to free speech, the right to habeas corpus, the right to the rule of law.

Tbus, the US civil rights would not have benefitted from the intervention of the feds to enforce school de-segregation if this all-important right had been left to the states.

Also - in the US constitution, the all-important "etc." (i.e. powers not specifically placed anywhere) are placed with the states. I am not sure what the situation is in the indian constitution. In Pakistan I believe it is with the federal government.

yeah....why wouldn't mushy want the story of pakiland's great victory in kargil to be told...HAHAHA..

Sharif wants probe on Musharraf's role in Kargil war

Press Trust of India
Sunday, March 2, 2008 (Islamabad)
The new government in Pakistan should review the causes for the Kargil war, including President Pervez Musharraf's role, and fix responsibility for the conflict with India, former premier Nawaz Sharif has said.

The Charter of Democracy signed by the Pakistan People's Party and the PML-N nearly two years ago committed both parties to setting up a commission to review the Kargil conflict, Sharif, whose party has decided top support a PPP-led coalition government, said.

The document also committed the parties to abolishing the National Security Council, making the Inter-Services Intelligence Agency accountable to the civilian government and getting all army officers to declare their assets annually, the PML (N) chief said.

''We stand by the Charter. We think it's an excellent document (and) it must be implemented in letter and spirit.

And I have all the intentions to do that,'' Sharif told interviewer Karan Thapar on the Devil's Advocate programme.

''The PPP is committed to that because it bears the signature of Mohtarma Benazir Bhutto.''

Asked if he was still committed to the setting up of a commission to look into the causes of Kargil and to fix responsibility, Sharif replied, ''Yes.''

Sharif, whose PML(N) emerged as the second largest party after PPP in the February 18 polls, also said the charter continued to be binding despite slain former premier Bhutto's talks on a possible power-sharing arrangement with Musharraf.

Sharif has for long contested Musharraf's contention that he was aware about and had backed the plan to take over strategic heights in the Kargil sector of the Line of Control in Jammu and Kashmir in 1999, while he was the prime minister.

The conflict stalled a peace initiative that had been launched by Sharif and his then Indian counterpart, Atal Bihari Vajpayee, barely months before Pakistani troops took over the heights in Kargil.

The Pakistani troops and mujahideen were evicted after a three-month long campaign.

Asked if a possible probe into the Kargil affair was another way to target Musharraf, Sharif said: ''It's not targeting. It is straightening out things. We have to put our house in order and we want to put our house in order.''

Sharif also did not rule out the possibility of taking legal action against Musharraf for deposing him in a military coup in 1999, barely three months after the end of the Kargil conflict, and for abrogating the constitution.

''Somebody will have to be taken to task. After all, abrogating the constitution is not a small crime. Does it happen in India?'' he said.

''What is the harm if any such action is initiated?''

Asked if he would actually initiate legal action against Musharraf, Sharif said, ''Who knows? Well, time will tell. I think the country has suffered enough at the hands of these dictators.''

Sharif repeated his call for Musharraf to quit in the wake of the defeat of his supporters in the February 18 general election. ''That is why we are saying repeatedly, 'Mr Musharraf step down.' There may be a safe exit now available to you.''

Separatists lash out at Zardari over Kashmir remarks

Kashmiri separatist leaders have expressed dismay and anger at Pakistan Peoples' Party co-chairman Asif Ali Zardari's announcement that the Kashmir issue should be set aside to focus on other aspects for improving relations with India.

Zardari, in an interview, asserted that, "The relations between India and Pakistan should not be held hostage to the Kashmir issue".

"The dispute constitutes a potential threat to nuclear peace in the south Asian region. Therefore, the dispute has to be addressed in the larger interest of peace, security and the stability in the region as a whole," Prof Abdul Gani Bhat, chief spokesperson of the moderate All Parties Hurriyat Conference told rediff.com.

"We cannot wish it away. This has to be done. The dispute has to go. We cannot afford to live with tensions for all times to come," he said.

Prof Bhat said, "Zardari or any other person has to bear in mind that the survival of the region is inescapably linked with the resolution of Kashmir problem".

"Zardari has totally strayed away from the traditional Pakistan stand on Kashmir. It shows his political immaturity. He wants to appease India," said Nazir Ahmad Ronga, president of the Kashmir Bar Association.

Jammu and Kashmir [Images] Liberation Front chairman Mohammad Yasin Malik, while reacting to Zardari's statement, said, "Nobody could overlook the sacrifices made by the people of Kashmir and the problem has to be resolved in line with people's aspirations".

Malik said he favoured India-Pakistan friendship but the same "should not be achieved by suppressing of the rights of Kashmiri people".

"We should not react in haste unless we find out the context in which Zardari made his assertions," said Shabir Shah, chairman of the Democratic Freedom Party.

Shah also said that the official stand of the new coalition government in Pakistan on Kashmir would be known only after they assume power.

... correction ...#276

Read 20 million+ people as 34 million people.

#274 Posted by pavocavalry,

This too was written in 2003?

#271 Posted by pavocavalry,

IDEALISM WILL COME TO GRIEF.PAKISTAN IS A REALLY HOPELESS STATE.AN UNDOUBTED FAILURE.

Yes that's a view, shared by many, but 20 million+ people voted and gave a clear mandate despite the threats of violence propagated through the interior ministry by musharraf to scare them away. That outcome too was unexpected, and another can happen. It would be unfair to discount the public mandate altogether just if the US says so.

Pakistan's Looters and Plunderers: Politicians or Generals?
By Major A.H. Amin

IN AN answer to a question General Musharraf stated that Nawaz Sharif and Benazir Bhutto were plunderers and thus have no right to rule Pakistan. If this line of supreme piety and catholic chastity is to be followed no one can rule Pakistan whether it is Nawaz, Benazir or any soldier unconstitutional president including Musharraf.

Musharraf could have given one credit to the alleged plunderer Nawaz Sharif , which is that he promoted Musharraf out of turn, and over the heads of many competent officers, to head the Army. Musharraf is a beneficiary of Nawaz’s corrupt acts.

A dispassionate glance at Pakistan’s history proves that this country has been looted or plundered by both soldiers and civilians. It is another thing that soldiers got away with the crime because they had guns in hand while politicians were penalized because they did not have coercive military power or because they committed the crime of appointing army chiefs who overthrew them.

The vast bulk of corruption in this country was committed in the Ayub and Zia eras because it was in these two periods when phenomenal doses of foreign aid came to this country. Thus the 21 families of the Ayub era. This is a reference to the families who, thanks to President Ayub’s patronage, rose from little or nothing to become among the richest in Pakistan. These included sons and grandsons of Risaldar Majors of Hodsons Horse and sons and grandsons of Assistant Political Agents (In both cases, the ranks are humble). I know many sons and grandsons of Risaldar Majors but none became a billionaire unless he was one part of the Ayub regime.

Take Afghanistan in 1980s. As per a respectable estimate only 15 to 25 % of the cross border Afghan aid ever reached the Afghans, the rest was skimmed off by Pakistani and some Afghan middleman from the ISI and other agencies. Thus so many beverage and textile factories belong to the sons of generals, including the present minister of commerce.

The Americans gave 250 Stinger launchers and about 1,000 Stinger Missiles to Pakistan’s ISI under the silent soldier whose son is a silent industrialist. These were state of the art weapons against Soviet gun ships and air power. All evidence now proves that these Stingers had limited impact on the war in Afghanistan but a decisive role on Pakistani military juntas generals.

That these missiles were sold by the silent arms merchants was proved once one of these very Stingers sent to Pakistan missed a US Helicopter in the Persian Gulf on 8th October 1987. This led to a US probe into finding crooks and plunderers who sold these Stingers and it failed because the crooks and plunderers blew the Ojhri Camp Depot in 1988, in what was surely one of the greatest ammunition depot explosions in history. Another casualty of these crooks and plunderers was Pakistani Premier Junejo who had reduced generals to Suzuki cars [an economy compact, quite a step down compared to the Mercedes’ favored by the South Asian elite] and wanted to sack the silent soldier General Akhtar Abdur Rehman.

The list is endless. Who sold the Intercontinental Hotel to Hashwani for next to nothing, less than a simple house? Who was that general who bought Mercedes Trucks for NLC? Or was Saeed Qadir a blackguard civil servant like Salman Faruqui?

Volume wise the greatest scams of Pakistan were committed in defense deals. Only one man was taken to task i.e. naval chief Mansur, but this man too was dismissed by Nawaz Sharif long before Musharraf came to power. Another major defence scam was the Ukrainian tank deal involving ex army chief Karamat but this was conveniently ignored by Musharraf as the general is from the generals trade union !

Now to the present regime. Although it is too early to finalize any conclusions but there is no doubt that many scams would be known when this regime too is assigned to the dustbin of history. In 1999 in an open bidding for Coastal Highway a Pakistani civilian firm SK & B got the contract since it was the lowest bidder. The military firm FWO was the seventh highest bidder and was nowhere near SK & B. As soon as this military government came into power it cancelled SK & B’s contract and gave the contract to FWO asking it to itself change the design and lower its rates. The FWO failed to complete the project in time and has sub-contracted Ormara-Pasni Section at lower rates than it is being paid, to two civilian firms. ! Why couldn’t civilians be given the contract in the first place.



Who allowed MacDonald’s to occupy billion dollar land reclaimed by DHA initially for commercial bidding? Who allowed MacDonald’s to make a restaurant in the parking lot in Karachi? These are only the tip of the iceberg.

The list of scams is indeed long. Where does the buying of Boeing 777 fit in? With Hidayatullah Khaishgi a close relative of Musharraf on PIA's board of directors, is there no dead rat in this 5 Billion USD purchase? Look at the contradictions. Back in 1980s an army captain was dismissed from service on false allegations for taking a government issue bulb home and all is clean in a multi billion dollar deal!

What about sudden inflating of land rates at Gwadar with a known land mafia man Shiekhani developing schemes? With Gwadar land bought by senior military officials for 30,000/- a Kanal where a Kanal now is selling for 2 Million! [A Kanal is an eighth of an acre, so land sold to the public for $250,000 an acre was sold to the military for $4000 an acre.] We don’t know whether Gwadar would ever become a Dubai or not but it sure is a Dubai for all military men who own lands on the coastal Highway and in the Sanghar Housing Scheme.

The list is long and time is on the side of the hypocrites. It is alarming to see men who spend their lives in sycophancy with military seniors to get good Annual Confidential Reports finally picking up the mantle of cleaning Pakistan. Those who were just four years ago pleasing Shahbaz Sharif or Mr X on Farmhouse " X " now are persecuting their benefactors and not allowing them to live in this country.

They have made life a never ending self deception, an ironic play which would even make Shakespeare turn in his grave.

... sheesh the Darra dead Jirga elders are now 40. Someone blew up the whole meeting. Reports are it was an 18 yr old who didn't look like from the area ...

#267-269 Posted by pavocavalry,

This in turn is creating a backlash and when this backlash is created India feels threatened.So India has to talk to USA.

... and the monkeys think america is doing their job ...

Conclusion

The USA is dealing with sharp social climber third world leaders who know how to please and how to practice sophisticated ball lifting ! These men have no ideology and can withstand tremendous amount of kicking as they did while pleasing seniors in their military careers ! It is simpler to deal with these tinpot dictators than Osama or Mullah Omar ! If policy makers in the USA understand this fact their task would be simpler !

I WROTE THIS ARTICLE IN 2003.

NOW I AM INCLINED TO THINK THAT USA'S BELIEF THAT THE COLLABORATOR DOG CATCHER ARMY GENERALS ARE ITS BEST BET IN PAKISTAN AND AGAINST ISLAMISTS IN GENERAL HAS BEEN REINFORCED.

THEY ARE CONSPIRING TO IMPOSE SOME KIND OF SETTLEMENT IN PAKISTAN I.E DEMOCRACY INCLUDING MUSHARRAF.

IF THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN THEY WILL FIND ANOTHER MUSHARRAF IN THE ARMY WHO IS THEIR GOOD SON AND GOOD OLD HOUND FOR DOG CATCHING !

THE CONCLUSION IS THAT USA WILL CONTINUE TO RELY ON PAKISTAN'S COLLABORATOR GENERALS WHETHER ITS GENERAL X Y OR Z.THIS SYSTEM WONT CHANGE .IDEALISM WILL COME TO GRIEF.PAKISTAN IS A REALLY HOPELESS STATE.AN UNDOUBTED FAILURE.

#264 Posted by pavocavalry,

No truer words said:

The USA is dealing with sharp social climber third world leaders who know how to please and how to practice sophisticated ball lifting ! These men have no ideology and can withstand tremendous amount of kicking as they did while pleasing seniors in their military careers ! It is simpler to deal with these tinpot dictators than Osama or Mullah Omar !

India was too lrage to be manipulated although the USA did find moles cultivated by CIA like Mooraji Desai.

Pakistan was easier to manipulate through its military junta.So the USA favoured Pakistan's military junta.It always found democratic leaders like ZAB and NS as a threat .

What is happening is that USA is using paki generals against Islamists.This in turn is creating a backlash and when this backlash is created India feels threatened.So India has to talk to USA.

India was too lrage to be manipulated although the USA did find moles cultivated by CIA like Mooraji Desai.

Pakistan was easier to manipulate through its military junta.So the USA favoured Pakistan's military junta.It always found democratic leaders like ZAB and NS as a threat .

What is happening is that USA is using paki generals against Islamists.This in turn is creating a backlash and when this backlash is created India feels threatened.So India has to talk to USA.

India was too lrage to be manipulated although the USA did find moles cultivated by CIA like Mooraji Desai.

Pakistan was easier to manipulate through its military junta.So the USA favoured Pakistan's military junta.It always found democratic leaders like ZAB and NS as a threat .

What is happening is that USA is using paki generals against Islamists.This in turn is creating a backlash and when this backlash is created India feels threatened.So India has to talk to USA.

India was too lrage to be manipulated although the USA did find moles cultivated by CIA like Mooraji Desai.

Pakistan was easier to manipulate through its military junta.So the USA favoured Pakistan's military junta.It always found democratic leaders like ZAB and NS as a threat .

What is happening is that USA is using paki generals against Islamists.This in turn is creating a backlash and when this backlash is created India feels threatened.So India has to talk to USA.

India was too lrage to be manipulated although the USA did find moles cultivated by CIA like Mooraji Desai.

Pakistan was easier to manipulate through its military junta.So the USA favoured Pakistan's military junta.It always found democratic leaders like ZAB and NS as a threat .

What is happening is that USA is using paki generals against Islamists.This in turn is creating a backlash and when this backlash is created India feels threatened.So India has to talk to USA.

The Pakistani military mindset

A.H Amin

2nd August 2003



While third world military figures , in power or retired make impressive speeches at various forums and think tanks , very few outside their countries understand their mindset and motivation , which by and large is driven by highly personalized and ulterior motives !



Keeping this premise in view it is important to understand the mindset and the personalities of the third world military juntas , most important in this case being the Pakistani military junta !



The British Indian Army which gave birth to Pakistan and Indian armies in 1947 was essentially a colonial army designed for internal security and limited defence of India against external threats .The British ensured that all Indians who came to this organization were from the politically most docile and loyal classes ! In order to keep the Indian officer corps slavish they kept a 50 % quota for Indian Army rankers in Indian Military Academy Dera Dun right from its foundation in 1930-32 .



Layman readers may note that the “ lower middle class” as well as the “ middle class” by and large are the politically most conservative classes ! Social climbers by orientation , intensely careeristic in outlook and extremely conscious of personal benefits , having none or little of the pride or spirit de corps that made the Prussian junker officer defy Hitler ! In the Russian Civil War many major reactionary White Army leaders including Denikin,Kornilov etc were from humble background ! Similarly all of Pakistan’s military rulers less Yahya Khan were from humble background and all brought with them the intense greed and ambitiousness of a man from humble origins with none of the ideological idealism that distinguishes a man of ideology from a social climber !



Now the mindset of the military junta :--



1- Personal motives having priority over all other motives :-- You would find no Manstein or Guderian in them but highly ambitious men who practiced sycophancy with their seniors , hole punchers in US terms , yes men ,masters of personal manouvre in order to get the right report from the right boss at the right time ! They pleased their seniors and they know how to handle balls of any benefactor may it be Bush or Reagan where aid is concerned ! They have no ideology less personal interest !

2- View Wars and International Geopolitics as a means of personal benefit:-- The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan was a divine and phenomenal lottery for Pakistan’s military rulers ! Zia the son of a humble tailor , and many of his generals Akhtar etc siphoned millions of US dollars in private accounts , from the US aid meant for Afghanistan ! knowing the Americans well , they must have also earmarked good retainers for Zia and his ISI chief in any case ! Serious observers like Selig Harrison and Cordovez have concluded that the Pakistani military junta never wanted that the Soviets should withdraw from Afghanistan since that would have meant stoppage of US aid ! Similarly 9/11 is a heaven sent opportunity for General Musharraf since it enabled him to get US aid and the much needed US boost to stay in power !

3- Can be coerced and bought if the Bigger players know how to drive them:-- These leaders have price tags and can be manipulated to a significant extent without risking wars like the Iraq war ! This is so because their vision is personal , has none of Khomeini or Osama’s ideological agenda ! Thus if the USA sensibly deals with them with carrot and stick they can be made to conform to US policies !

4- Ulterior motives in prolonging conflicts to get aid :-- These leaders have an ulterior motive that their benefactor super power i.e USA is kept occupied in its war against terror , not because they have any love for Islam , but simply because this would bring them more aid , an important part of which is siphoned into private fortunes ! Thus at a certain covert level these leaders are interested in the terrorist’s cause also ! Thus the third world intelligence agencies have many irons in the fire whether it is initiating a terrorist outrage or encouraging one !

5- Increasing reliance on coercive power of state :-- Since these leaders have little or no contact with national aspirations of their masses , they increasingly rely on the coercive power of the state which leads either to a Shah of Iran like situation or strengthening of a Saddam like totalitarian regime ! In both cases it was the fault and mishandling of US policy makers !

6- Role of the Intelligence agencies :-- To buy judges , to blackmail politicians , to start wars of low intensity to get aid , to manipulate low intensity war players for specific ends to please or disturb their super power benefactors !



Conclusion

The USA is dealing with sharp social climber third world leaders who know how to please and how to practice sophisticated ball lifting ! These men have no ideology and can withstand tremendous amount of kicking as they did while pleasing seniors in their military careers ! It is simpler to deal with these tinpot dictators than Osama or Mullah Omar ! If policy makers in the USA understand this fact their task would be simpler !

#262 Posted by pavocavalry,

Thus while it has Pakistan in its pocket because of collaborator generals it cannot manipulate India.....but MORE IMPORTANT because it has Pakistan under its control through the collaborator generals , through this it can influence Indian policy.

I've never heard this argument before. Very interesting. It seems to have a ring of truth. Would you care to elaborate Agha Saheb?

the musharraf clique will do anything to destabilise the new government.

the key generals still think :--

1-Musharraf is indispensable
2-Both PML N and PPP are a threat to the generals , and the generals think that they are the army - total BS in reality , so anyone who is anti generals is a threat to ideologu of Pakistan...hence has to be neutralised or removed.They area also propagating to their US masters that they are the best bet , the old loyal hound , that they are best for dog catching.
3-Two choices are in front of USA.If they want to further destabilise Pakistan they will help the generals or help democracy take its roots in Pakistan.That certainly is not the US choice.Contrary to all propaganda carried out by USA it fears democracy.Thus while it has Pakistan in its pocket because of collaborator generals it cannot manipulate India.....but MORE IMPORTANT because it has Pakistan under its control through the collaborator generals , through this it can influence Indian policy.

Its all a game of grand deception.A body guard of lies.

The peace agreement seems to have broken down:

Bombing in 'Pindi killing a Lt General, the bombing of Levies in Bajaur killing 3 paramilitary personnel, bombing in Laki Marwat the next day targeting a DSP Police and again the same day bombing the deceased's funeral in Swat killing 50 - mainly Police - and this morning an attack on the Govt sponsored Jirga in Darra Adam Khel killing 22 tribal elders (so far).

Consider the following:

1)The Lt. General's killing was followed by the predator missile attack in Waziristan killing 13.

2)The Pak Taliban accepted responsibility for the Bajaur attack but not the Lt. General. No one knows who carried out that attack. According to eyewitnesses it was not targeted and the bomber disguised as a beggar had been waiting for an army vehicle since morning by the roadside. First he approached a Captain's car in the near lane, but then noticed another car with three stars on it stop in the middle-lane and bombed it instead. This is the hallmark of the Jhangvi/Jaish/Tayyaba groups who take indiscriminate revenge. The army obviously took it to be Taliban and retaliated by the predator (which are now based in Pakistan, not Afghanistan). Taliban hit back with Bajaur and accepted responsibility.

3)The DSP killed in Laki Marwat had been transferred from Swat just 2 months ago, and belonged to that area. Since even his funeral was not spared, it points to a revenge operation by the Fazlullah militia.

Above points to a deep fray of various groups (to which I have pointed before), but the Pakistan Army is pinning everything on Pakistani Taliban.

The attack on the 'masharan' Jirga in Darra is a watershed. It could either be the Pak Taliban going again for an all out war with an intensity not seen before, or it could be the Pakistani covert agencies instigating a division within the tribes following the successful Anbar Province example of Iraq. Negraponte's visit is significant in this assumption.

Take your pick.

As for my personal opinion, musharraf seems to have decided to sabotage the budding democracy yet again. Maybe he still has some 'mukkas' left.

A Milestone on the Road to Anarchy

A.H Amin



General Musharraf the military usurper of Pakistan in an article in Washington Post has claimed all credit for holding free and faor elections ! The article appears to be a lobbying attempt with USA in order to get another extension as president of Pakistan for himself.

Not after months of turmoil , but after years of turmoil which have its origins in Pakistani military junta's unconditional collaboration with USA , elections were finally held in Pakistan in 2008.



It is essential that Pakistan should achieve democracy.It is so because a truly democratically elected government will not make the compromises with USA or any other external power like a general who usurped power through the backdoor.When Pakistan's military dictator General Musharraf states that "The government worked tirelessly to ensure that Monday's vote would be free, fair, transparent and peaceful. A broad range of new procedures were put in place -- such as the public counting of ballots at each polling station -- to make certain that this would be the fairest election ever held in Pakistan" this is an insult to Pakistani masses intelligence.A military dictator who usurped power thinks that he did a favour to Pakistan by holding free and fair elections ! What a jugglery of words designed to introduce a conflict of principle ! More so because Musharrafs head of ISI's political section General Zamir admitted in an interview that he rigged the elections of 2002 as Musharraf had ordered !

General Musharraf was fored to hold free and fair elections under severe pressure of USA and its western allies.No compliment to the self proclaimed sincerity of General Musharraf !

The election is historically significant because it has in principle increased political instability in Pakistan by producing a hung parliament.Ripe ground for Pakistani military junta's intelligence agencies to further divide all political forces and make the resultant coalition weak and thus the office of the president stronger.

According to General Musharraf the Pakistani nation faces "three main tasks: defeating terrorism and extremism; building a stable and effective democratic government; and creating a solid foundation for sustained economic growth." He thinks that he can accomplish them and is ready to work with the newly elected Parliament to achieve these objectives.A chronic job seeker , here we have a man who destroyed democracy and now claims credit for restoring it and now wants to work with political parties whose leaders according to him some years deserved to be kicked.In 1999 he created a military organ called NAB and used it to blackmail the vast majority of these politicians.Later the same politicians were blackmailed into joining the kings party called PML Q.

General Musharraf thinks that great challenges are there but also great opportunities exist.He thinks that he is the most suitable man to defeat the challenges and to harness the opportunities.A claim far from reality when in Waziristan the commanding general cannot travel 45 kilometres in jeep by road from Miranshah to Bannu.When Balochistan has been subjected to a massive genocide by military action.When 5 divisions of Pakistan army are struck in tribal areas of Pakistan !

General Musharraf thinks that he is the best bet of USA to fight terrorism.Thus writing an article in Washington Post was part of a strategy to gain extension from USA .

As the Pakistani experience in Bangladesh,Balochistan and Tribal Areas has shown, military force alone is not sufficient. A successful counterinsurgency requires a multi-pronged approach -- military, political and economic.General Musharraf's strategy was to catch some Al Qaeda leaders and sell them to USA as he confessed in his biography.This he did in his own words because Armitage threatened that he will bomb Pakistan to stone age !

He wants the continued support of the United States for Pakistan but above all for himself . He has asked Americans to remember that building democracy is difficult in the best of conditions; doing so in a complex country such as Pakistan -- with its uneasy political history, with its centuries-old regional and feudal cleavages, and with violent extremists dedicated to the defeat of democracy -- is even more challenging. He wants the USA to understand that General Musharraf (Retired) is indispensableif , a peaceful transition to democracy has to be achieved . Although the people of Pakistan clearly demonstrated by their voting that they dont President Musharraf, Musharraf still thinks that he is indispensable.Like Hitler in the last days of power in his bunker thought that some miracle would lead to his triumph or at least survival.General Musharraf thinks that he is indispensable for Pakistan and above all for USA.If USA still believes this theory expounded by Musharraf then the scene is set for diasaster.

General Musharraf is all set to make sure that the parliament elected by Pakistanis in 2008 does not survive for more than an year or two.The horse trading and buying and selling has already commenced.Pakistan is condemned to remain unstable because USA has more faith in Pakistan's generals and its mercenary army which is doing the job of USA's tactical garbage collector than the people of Pakistan.A sad conclusion to the elections of 2008.Pakistan is condemned to greater civil strife and continued instability.That appears to be part of USA's long term strategy !

#257 Posted by vengatramanan,

It may well be, I don't know. My question was how come the rural/agri growth is 2.6% for 70% of population, which after population growth of 1.4% leaves 1.2% to cover inflation, which is around 5%. Does it mean the vast majority of the entire population which is desperately poor is getting even poorer by 4% every year?

Re: # 257

Pareto's curve is not India specific. At the most, the categories might differ.

zeemax,

fyi, we are in the top 5 for most of the horticulture, agriculture and dairy production.

DM ji,

Thanks for the effort to educate me.

Re: # 253 Mr Z wants to wash of hands on Kashmir for trade it appears. The India china dialogue is useless for liberation of Kashmir is not "accounting" problem of Baniyas its about liberation and letting child revert to her mother country from kidnapper.
Now please do not forget still general is head of state who wants the problem tackled and not go on discussion for ever but give and take and finishing of business statred in 1947. Now the Govt is presenting presidents govt so K problem can not be put under cover like NRO or corrouption and white washing of 1.5 Billion dollars stacked all over world. Politicians will sell part of country if it helps them to get elected. No party will survive without supporting Kashmir struggle in words but by action and proactive offensive tactics.

#253 Posted by jayp,

Restoration of the SAME judges (personalities) is inextricably linked to future independence of judiciary. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a moron and a peon of the west (where's masadi?)

Re your other point "paki legal system and judgements can vary so much between a mushy appointed judge and a Zardari appointed judge|", the formula under consideration to be adopted is the US one where any appointee/nominee is approved by a congressional committee. In Pakistan's case it is proposed to be a combined Parliamentary/Senate Committee.

But of-course you don't know that. Details don't help in the monkey circle jerk!!!

Dost ,

Hvae you ever heard of an all pakistan protest against price rises, against wheat shortage, against corruption, against electricity shortage.

One when TNT is involved, a danish man in pak soil, a lone danish ambassador, well he has to be kicked out. MAJ, you are still alive and kicking the hell of out of the second, of the two nation theory.

Feb 29, 2008 07:41 EST

KARACHI, Feb 29 (Reuters) - Protesters in Pakistan called on Friday for ties with Denmark to be severed over the republication of one of several cartoons of the Prophet Mohammad that led to violence in Muslim countries two years ago.

Rallies were held in Karachi, Quetta, Multan, Hyderbabad, and the capital, Islamabad, where protesters shouted slogans against Denmark and burned U.S. and Danish flags.

"The Danish ambassador should be expelled and Pakistan should immediately end diplomatic ties with that country," Abdul Gafoor Nadeem, an activist of a militant group, told a gathering of about 700 people in Karachi.

Zee 243,

The post was to indicate what happens in india and what the politicians have to do in response to public demands.

Take the case of pakistan, no political party said anything about law and order, nothing about price rises, nothing about mush cooking GDP books. No protests about any of the above, but one stupid cartoon in sweden is a major protest topic through out pakistan. The paost was to point to teh fundamental differences in pak values. At times you all talk about roti kapda makan for pakis, well it is a simple elitist creation by the chokies, who have enough of all that, a transposition of western values on to the pakis, while in fact they are more concerned about religion and supporting jihad.

So leave the content of my post, focus on teh underlying value difference.

Zardari is talking about indo pak trade, that is irrelevant, cutting the military budget is important, but he will not mention it.

All of pakistanis talk about re-appointing the sacked judges. They miss the point that of paki legal system and judgements can vary so mush between a mushy appointed judge and a Zardari appointed judge, well there is no legal system in pakistan that is worth restoring. No one, not even a single paki on chowk dares to address the fundamental issue, why should the legal system be so dependant on the personalities of the judges. If mushy can change the entire legal system by changing a few judges, well paki lawyers can curl up and die in shame.

#251 Posted by dost_mittar on March 1, 2008 5:39:30 pm

sheesh..haven't people heard of this thing called google..

http://www.mindtools.net/GlobCourse/formula.shtml

Let me give you an important factoid(researched by my pakistani friend, the one with whom I watch sa-re-ga-ma)

here's how the paki dictatorship screwed the paki twice over..

first, shortcut aziz faked wheat production numbers to boost the GDP numbers..this was done because india was on a tear at 9+% and pakiland was barely at 7%(with 10% inflation)

the fake GDP growth numbers were used to justify the continuation of the dictatorship.

the paki government is kinda like capt clueless...they fall for their own BS..they allowed the export of wheat based on the fake output numbers.

pakiland had a wheat shortage...inflation for the poorest touched 20%...

vengatraman:

"I don't know the mechanics behind calculating GDP"

Unless the procedure has changed, the output is estimated by a sampling method and multiplied by the price of the commodity in the base year (to avoid the effects of any changes in prices).

Re: # 245

Tahmed sahib:

This is the article:

http://www.chowk.com/articles/4913

Believe it or not last year I got an email from someone in Gauhati, who wrote that he had class discussions and this article was used in discussions. Chowk is read beyond what I thought.

The grapes were sour AND poisonous...

Kashmir issue can wait: Zardari

Print Save EMail Write to Editor
ISLAMABAD: In a major shift from Pakistan's long-standing position, PPP co-chairman Asif Ali Zardari, whose party is set to take reins of the country, has expressed readiness to set aside the Kashmir issue to focus on other aspects for improving relations with India.

He emphasised that the relations between India and Pakistan should not be held "hostage" to the Kashmir issue and that the two countries "can wait" so that future generations resolve the dispute in a mature manner in an atmosphere of "trust".

In views reflecting India's position, Zardari said he was determined to break the barriers and mindsets that deter trade between the two countries.

"The idea is that we feel for Kashmir, the PPP (Pakistan People's Party) has always felt for Kashmir. We have a strong Kashmir policy. We have always had one," he said.

"But having said that, we don't want to be hostage to that situation. That is a situation we can agree to disagree (on). Countries do, we have positions, you have positions. We can agree to disagree on everything," he said in a television interview.

Noting that India and Pakistan could "agree to disagree on (the UN resolutions)," he said "We can wait. We can be patient till everybody grows up further. Maybe the coming generation grows up even further and then let's interact as human beings and come to a position of love."

Re: # 247

Fyi, the rural population of India has a better personal disposable income than others.

Re: # 243

I don't know the mechanics behind calculating GDP. What I can tell you is, whatever output the rural population provides is grossly undervalued. For egs, the produce of farmers cannot be priced by him. He does not have the liberty of costing and spelling out the margin. Adding to the market volatility that decides the commodity prices, there are restrictions on transporting the produce from one state to another. In short, the farmer does not decide where to sell and the price. In a way the farmers subsidize the lives of the rest of the population. When onion prices skyrocketed, farmers stood to gain. The then Vajpayee government promptly banned the export of onions. Farmers gulped this as they need no propitiation.

Sorry if you were looking for a riposte.

#243 Posted by zeemax on March 1, 2008 1:38:54 am


still stand by 2010? or it's now sooner or later?

anil #231 do you recall when you wrote that article? or have a link to it?

beyond-pathetic jayp #241 "I have said that several times,I am on chowk to do some paki-bashing, .."

And I have said several times that writing crap on chowk is not "bashing". Although for the measly little man that you probably are, this is the closest you can come to bashing anyone other than your patni jee. :-)

"..more so because there is nothing in common. "

and thank God for that.

#242 Posted by jayp,

india has written off 15 billion of farmers loans

So the commies whacking monkey cops by the dozens has had some effect. Good. Soon you'll have to write ALL of them off.

But bhindia is the only weird place where 70% of the populace gets 2.6% of economic growth while the balance gets 9%. So this 15 billion is a nice lollypop which may keep the rural bhindis quiet for a while.

Another fundamental indo apk difference

from dawn of today

Underlying the wheat crisis is the second deficit with respect to the erosion of the integrity of economic data. The fact is that the position of the director-general of the Federal Bureau of Statistics (FBS) – the country’s principal data collection agency – has been left vacant since June 2003, raising questions across the board about the accuracy of data. Allegedly, the absence of the organisation’s head allowed senior finance ministry officials to pressure lower ranking FBS officials into doctoring the data.

Allegedly again, it is understood that the regime’s fetish with showing high GDP growth rates led it to ‘demand’ that output figures be padded upwards somewhat. Accordingly, it appears that while food ministry officials ‘prepared’ the estimates of wheat output, commerce ministry officials — unaware of the extent of the padding – used the estimates to allow export of wheat. The shortage signals that went out in the market from the belated realisation that initial announcement of a bumper crop were incorrect laid the basis for the crisis to erupt.

Pathetic tahmed,

I have said that several times, I am on chowk to do some paki-bashing, more so because there is nothing in common. I have said before, pakistanis are only homo-erectus and have not reached the homo sapien status, as evidenced by the law and order situation in pakistan and no one is complaining about it.

Today india has written off 15 billion of farmers loans while for a mere 1 billion a year, teh pak army is killing their own citizens with helicopter gunships in waziristan. The paki mind is no different from that of homo erctus, pakistanis appear to be human, they are bipeds that is all, and hence no similarity in terms of values with the indians.

Now please please do not come back with how handsome the paki are story.

STFU, grease up and bend over...

US experts expect army push in Tribal Areas

WASHINGTON: Pakistan’s military appears to be preparing for a new tribal-area offensive against the Taliban leader Baitullah Mehsud, US officials and experts say. “I can’t point to anything in the past that equates to that,” an official said, adding that General Ashfaq Kayani appeared to have brought greater focus to operations since taking over as army chief in November from President Pervez Musharraf. “Baitullah has gone and got himself so visible. He wants to kind of consolidate all of the FATA underneath his control, and because he’s sticking out so far, the Pakistanis are going to hammer him down,” said a US defence official. It was not clear whether Pakistan would attempt to capture or kill Mehsud, US experts said. But the military is constrained from launching an all-out offensive that could risk a backlash from tribes in the region. reuters

kashmir banega pakistan!!!


Inflation increases by 15.3 per cent

SHAHBAZ RANA
ISLAMABAD - The inflation for the poorest of the poor has mushroomed by 15.3 per cent during the current week as compared to the corresponding period of the last year.
Official statistics show that by February 28, weekly price indicator for income group of up to Rs 3,000 augmented by 15.26 per cent in comparison with the same period of last February. It grew by 0.65 per cent as against the previous week of the current month.
Federal Bureau of Statistics bulletin also depicts an increase in the rates of 37 essential kitchen items over the year. On week-on-week basis 24 items’ prices increased while decline was shown in eight. The major increase was in the prices of edible oils, rice, wheat, flour and tomatoes. The weekly indicator-Sensitive Price Index (SPI) covers 53 essential items that are mostly being consumed by the poor strata.

Far from india being bled by kashmir, the indian economy is on a tear...India still spends a smaller % on it's military than pakiland and a larger % on education than pakiland..

in a matter of speaking, this long overdue increase in india's military budget was made possible by kargil...so it was a twofer...pakiland got an ass whooping and the government's attention turned to increasing defense spending...

India hikes defence spendings by 10pc

NEW DELHI (AFP) - India on Friday jacked up defence spending by 10 percent to 26.4 billion dollars, the steepest hike since independence to fund a mammoth modernisation programme.
Finance Minister Palaniappan Chidambaram boosted expenditure for the fiscal year ending March 2009 from the previous allocation of 24 billion dollars, saying security was of paramount importance.
India plans to spend at least 30 billion dollars until 2012 to modernise the military with an immediate purchase of 126 war jets costing 12 billion dollars followed by ships, submarines, artillery and other hardware in coming years.

Re: # 231

Tahmed Sahib:

A few years ago I had written an essay that was published here on devolution of power in India. Devolution of power right down to manageable and sustainable GDP level is important. Any other thing creates unnecessary bureaucracy and politics. Government is then everywhere, this in Indian scene translate to corruption.

I am in all favor of devolution of power. Interestingly, India over the last 18 years has evolved a mechanism through coalition and common minimum program. I know in India's case 50% of GDP is controlled within its state. Nothing central government can do about it.

Re: # 232 HP

I read Stuka's post and agree with him on both counts (CTBT and the BJP election plank), although he did not provide an elaborate explanation for the motives behind testing that I did (i.e why did BJP chose to differentiate itself from the other parties in wanting to test?). As I pointed out, 'nationalist Hinduism' aside, there were other plausible reasons to test. Can you point out where my facts are wrong? I'd be more than happy to defend or correct them.

Before you conclude that, 'is true that nuke tests were a nationalist Hindu or otherwise agenda for BJP and that was the sole reason for the tests', I recommend that you ask yourself if (a) Indira Gandhi was a 'nationalist Hindu' or from the BJP? and (b) if Narasimha Rao was a 'nationalist Hindu' since he wanted to test too when he was PM?

Manto -- Toba Tek Singh
Translated from Urdu by Murphy


Two or three years after Partition, the governments of Pakistan and India decided to exchange lunatics in the same way that they had exchanged civilian prisoners. In other words, Muslim lunatics in Indian madhouses would be sent to Pakistan, while Hindu and Sikh lunatics in Pakistani madhouses would be handed over to India.

I can't say whether this decision made sense or not. In any event, a date for the lunatic exchange was fixed after high level conferences on both sides of the border. All the details were carefully worked out. On the Indian side, Muslim lunatics with relatives in India would be allowed to stay. The remainder would be sent to the frontier. Here in Pakistan nearly all the Hindus and Sikhs were gone, so the question of retaining non-Muslim lunatics did not arise. All the Hindu and Sikh lunatics would be sent to the frontier in police custody.

I don't know what happened over there. When news of the lunatic exchange reached the madhouse here in Lahore, however, it became an absorbing topic of discussion among the inmates. There was one Muslim lunatic who had read the newspaper Zamindar1 every day for twelve years. One of his friends asked him: "Maulvi Sahib! What is Pakistan?" After careful thought he replied: "It's a place in India where they make razors."

Hearing this, his friend was content.

One Sikh lunatic asked another Sikh: "Sardar ji, why are they sending us to India? We don't even speak the language."

"I understand the Indian language," the other replied, smiling. "Indians are devilish people who strut around haughtily," he added.

While bathing, a Muslim lunatic shouted "Long live Pakistan!" with such vigor that he slipped on the floor and knocked himself out.

There were also some lunatics who weren't really crazy. Most of these inmates were murderers whose families had bribed the madhouse officials to have them committed in order to save them from the hangman's noose. These inmates understood something of why India had been divided, and they had heard of Pakistan. But they weren't all that well informed. The newspapers didn't tell them a great deal, and the illiterate guards who looked after them weren't much help either. All they knew was that there was a man named Mohammed Ali Jinnah, whom people called the Qaid-e-Azem. He had made a separate country for the Muslims, called Pakistan. They had no idea where it was, or what its boundaries might be. This is why all the lunatics who hadn't entirely lost their senses were perplexed as to whether they were in Pakistan or India. If they were in India, then where was Pakistan? If they were in Pakistan, then how was it that the place where they lived had until recently been known as India?

One lunatic got so involved in this India/Pakistan question that he became even crazier. One day he climbed a tree and sat on one of its branches for two hours, lecturing without pause on the complex issues of Partition. When the guards told him to come down, he climbed higher. When they tried to frighten him with threats, he replied: "I will live neither in India nor in Pakistan. I'll live in this tree right here!" With much difficulty, they eventually coaxed him down. When he reached the ground he wept and embraced his Hindu and Sikh friends, distraught at the idea that they would leave him and go to India.

One man held an M.S. degree and had been a radio engineer. He kept apart from the other inmates, and spent all his time walking silently up and down a particular footpath in the garden. After hearing about the exchange, however, he turned in his clothes and ran naked all over the grounds.

There was one fat Muslim lunatic from Chiniot who had been an enthusiastic Muslim League activist. He used to wash fifteen or sixteen times a day, but abandoned the habit overnight. His name was Mohammed Ali. One day he announced that he was the Qaid-e-Azem, Mohammed Ali Jinnah. Seeing this, a Sikh lunatic declared himself to be Master Tara Singh. Blood would have flowed, except that both were reclassified as dangerous lunatics and confined to separate quarters.

There was also a young Hindu lawyer from Lahore who had gone mad over an unhappy love affair. He was distressed to hear that Amritsar was now in India, because his beloved was a Hindu girl from that city. Although she had rejected him, he had not forgotten her after losing his mind. For this reason he cursed the Muslim leaders who had split India into two parts, so that his beloved remained Indian while he became Pakistani.

When news of the exchange reached the madhouse, several lunatics tried to comfort the lawyer by telling him that he would be sent to India, where his beloved lived. But he didn't want to leave Lahore, fearing that his practice would not thrive in Amritsar.

In the European Ward there were two Anglo-Indian lunatics. They were very worried to hear that the English had left after granting independence to India. In hushed tones, they spent hours discussing how this would affect their situation in the madhouse. Would the European Ward remain, or would it disappear? Would they be served English breakfasts? What, would they be forced to eat poisonous bloody Indian chapattis instead of bread?

One Sikh had been an inmate for fifteen years. He spoke a strange language of his own, constantly repeating this nonsensical phrase: "Upri gur gur di annexe di be-dhiyan o mung di daal of di lalteen."2 He never slept. According to the guards, he hadn't slept a wink in fifteen years. Occasionally, however, he would rest by propping himself against a wall.

His feet and ankles had become swollen from standing all the time, but in spite of these physical problems he refused to lie down and rest. He would listen with great concentration whenever there was discussion of India, Pakistan and the forthcoming lunatic exchange. Asked for his opinion, he would reply with great seriousness: "Upri gur gur di annexe di be-dhiyana di mung di daal of di Pakistan gornament."3

Later he replaced "of di Pakistan gornament" with "of di Toba Tek Singh gornament." He also started asking the other inmates where Toba Tek Singh was, and to which country it belonged. But nobody knew whether it was in Pakistan or India. When they argued the question they only became more confused. After all, Sialkot had once been in India, but was apparently now in Pakistan. Who knew whether Lahore, which was now in Pakistan, might not go over to India tomorrow? Or whether all of India might become Pakistan? And was there any guarantee that both Pakistan and India would not one day vanish altogether?

This Sikh lunatic's hair was unkempt and thin. Because he washed so rarely, his hair and beard had matted together, giving him a frightening appearance. But he was a harmless fellow. In fifteen years, he had never fought with anyone.

The attendants knew only that he owned land in Toba Tek Singh district. Having been a prosperous landlord, he suddenly lost his mind. So his relatives bound him with heavy chains and sent him off to the madhouse.

His family used to visit him once a month. After making sure that he was in good health, they would go away again. These family visits continued for many years, but they stopped when the India/Pakistan troubles began.

This lunatic's name was Bashan Singh, but everyone called him Toba Tek Singh. Although he had very little sense of time, he seemed to know when his relatives were coming to visit. He would tell the officer in charge that his visit was impending. On the day itself he would wash his body thoroughly and comb and oil his hair. Then he would put on his best clothes and go to meet his relatives.

If they asked him any question he would either remain silent or say: "Upri gur gur di annexe di be-dhiyana di mung di daal of di laaltein."

Bashan Singh had a fifteen-year-old daughter who grew by a finger's height every month. He didn't recognize her when she came to visit him. As a small child, she used to cry whenever she saw her father. She continued to cry now that she was older.

When the Partition problems began, Bashan Singh started asking the other lunatics about Toba Tek Singh. Since he never got a satisfactory answer, his concern deepened day by day.

Then his relatives stopped visiting him. Formerly he could predict their arrival, but now it was as though the voice inside him had been silenced. He very much wanted to see those people, who spoke to him sympathetically and brought gifts of flowers, sweets and clothing. Surely they could tell him whether Toba Tek Singh was in Pakistan or India. After all, he was under the impression that they came from Toba Tek Singh, where his land was.

There was another lunatic in that madhouse who thought he was God. One day, Bashan Singh asked him whether Toba Tek Singh was in Pakistan or India. Guffawing, he replied: "Neither, because I haven't yet decided where to put it!"

Bashan Singh begged this "God" to resolve the status of Toba Tek Singh and thus end his perplexity. But "God" was far too busy to deal with this matter because of all the other orders that he had to give. One day Bashan Singh lost his temper and shouted: "Upri gur gur di annexe di be-dhiyana di mung di daal of wahay Guru ji wa Khalsa and wahay Guru ji ki fatah. Jo bolay so nahal sat akal!"

By this he might have meant: "You are the God of the Muslims. If you were a Sikh God then you would certainly help me."

A few days before the day of the exchange, one of Bashan Singh's Muslim friends came to visit from Toba Tek Singh. This man had never visited the madhouse before. Seeing him, Bashan Singh turned abruptly and started walking away. But the guard stopped him.

"He's come to visit you. It's your friend Fazluddin," the guard said.

Glancing at Fazluddin, Bashan Singh muttered a bit. Fazluddin advanced and took him by the elbow. "I've been planning to visit you for ages, but I haven't had the time until now," he said. "All your relatives have gone safely to India. I helped them as much as I could. Your daughter Rup Kur . . ."

Bashan Singh seemed to remember something. "Daughter Rup Kur," he said.

Fazluddin hesitated, and then replied: "Yes, she's . . . she's also fine. She left with them."

Bashan Singh said nothing. Fazluddin continued: "They asked me to make sure you were all right. Now I hear that you're going to India. Give my salaams to brother Balbir Singh and brother Wadhada Singh. And to sister Imrat Kur also . . . Tell brother Balbir Singh that I'm doing fine. One of the two brown cows that he left has calved. The other one calved also, but it died after six days. And . . . and say that if there's anything else I can do for them, I'm always ready. And I've brought you some sweets."

Bashan Singh handed the package over to the guard. "Where is Toba Tek Singh?" he asked.

Fazluddin was taken aback. "Toba Tek Singh? Where is it? It's where it's always been," he replied.

"In Pakistan or in India?" Bashan Singh persisted.

Fazluddin became flustered. "It's in India. No no, Pakistan."

Bashan Singh walked away, muttering: "Upar di gur gur di annexe di dhiyana di mung di daal of di Pakistan and Hindustan of di dar fatay mun!"

Finally all the preparations for the exchange were complete. The lists of all the lunatics to be transferred were finalized, and the date for the exchange itself was fixed.

The weather was very cold. The Hindu and Sikh lunatics from the Lahore madhouse were loaded into trucks under police supervision. At the Wahga border post, the Pakistani and Indian officials met each other and completed the necessary formalities. Then the exchange began. It continued all through the night.

It was not easy to unload the lunatics and send them across the border. Some of them didn't even want to leave the trucks. Those who did get out were hard to control because they started wandering all over the place. When the guards tried to clothe those lunatics who were naked, they immediately ripped the garments off their bodies. Some cursed, some sang, and others fought. They were crying and talking, but nothing could be understood. The madwomen were creating an uproar of their own. And it was cold enough to make your teeth chatter.

Most of the lunatics were opposed to the exchange. They didn't understand why they should be uprooted and sent to some unknown place. Some, only half-mad, started shouting "Long live Pakistan!" Two or three brawls erupted between Sikh and Muslim lunatics who became enraged when they heard the slogans.

When Bashan Singh's turn came to be entered in the register, he spoke to the official in charge. "Where is Toba Tek Singh?" he asked. "Is it in Pakistan or India?"

The official laughed. "It's in Pakistan," he replied.

Hearing this, Bashan Singh leapt back and ran to where his remaining companions stood waiting. The Pakistani guards caught him and tried to bring him back to the crossing point, but he refused to go.

"Toba Tek Singh is here!" he cried. Then he started raving at top volume: "Upar di gur gur di annexe di be-dhiyana mang di daal of di Toba Tek Singh and Pakistan!"

The officials tried to convince him that Toba Tek Singh was now in India. If by some chance it wasn't they would send it there directly, they said. But he wouldn't listen.

Because he was harmless, the guards let him stand right where he was while they got on with their work. He was quiet all night, but just before sunrise he screamed. Officials came running from all sides. After fifteen years on his feet, he was lying face down on the ground. India was on one side, behind a barbed wire fence. Pakistan was on the other side, behind another fence. Toba Tek Singh lay in the middle, on a piece of land that had no name.

Re: # 233

Your hate filled verbosity, like Ganesh Mutants, Mother Burners, besides your abusive language is littered here.

This post of yours shows your mind. Now you have nothing else to say so you say HBS, like a mullah's ranting of higher authority, Allah.

You present nonsense here on proliferation to Kashmir and expected buyers. Instead you saw your own image in the mirror, and started ranting HBS.

If you did not achieve your dream or did not have a dream, it is not my fault. I knew what my dreams were and I also know what I achieved and not achieved, and I worked to get there. Yes, HBS, HP Mian. Your nonsense regarding this only shows jealousy of a failed man. Out of goodness of my heart, I can meet you there in the fall centennial celebrations. I can take you along, if you would prefer.

Your narcissistic obsession and compulsion in your pico, nano, micro analysis, and abuse only brings your hatred out. Never be afraid to see yourself in the mirror, preferring to abuse others only makes you more miserable.

In case you need reminding, you started abusing me. Your threat to me to make my life miserable (paraphrasing is mine) here on Chowk is on record here. Your name calling Ganesh Mutants, Mother Burners earned you a warning and you could not post for 24 hours. These are your foot prints HP Mian. Mine indeed touched HBS.

#215 Posted by anil

You are well aware that I try and avoid reading your posts and I had mentioned it to you a longtime ago. I am not surprised that my statement hurt your ego and since then you leave no opportunity pass by to abuse me. I further caught you lying about your stated Harvard Business school credentials. That too hurt you profoundly.

I have known and worked with many HBS graduates and have nothing but admiration for their skills in understanding issues, articulating responses, and effectively communicating their thought process. Even the most recent Graduates from that school show above referenced traits.

I would strongly recommend you send your posts to your former(imaginary) professors and get an opinion on what you write and how badly constructed your responses are on different issues. The horrendous amount of time you spend in writing long posts against me would be better spent, if you would pay attention to the issues and articulate responses to them.

Abusing me would never confirm to anyone that you are a Harvard Business school graduate, because you are not. This is the end of any conversation from me to you. You can go on your merry way to write absurd and abusive posts against me and If that makes you feel better and you feel that your posts are worthy of a HBS graduate, then more power to you.

#225 Posted by Pew_Research

If and when you write on serious issues like the nuke tests by India, you first need to fact check your posts. You failed to do that and you have been caught constructing a narrative based on false time lines and non existence motives.

“Recall, I said that ‘Gujral comes to mind’ – I could have also mentioned Rajiv Gandhi’s government.”

Do you even know how much gap was there between Gujral’s Premiership and Rajiv’s premiership? Phrases like “comes to mind” show that you have no facts on hand and just decided to conjure up a fairytale.

I would advise you to read Stuka’s post #214 which sufficiently and succinctly covers the motives for Indian nuke tests. Rests of the stories are just BS including your own.

#214 Posted by stuka

Hostility or not, I merely was challenging the made up story by puke_research. It is true that nuke tests were a nationalist Hindu or otherwise agenda for BJP and that was the sole reason for the tests. What happened afterwards was just the downstream reaction of a gigantic decision which India is still trying to recover from.

anil sahib #230 I think the PML (leading party in the Panjab) has no problem with greater provincial autonomy in principal. Also note that Zardari who of course has his power due to his position in the PPP, and the latter too has its majority due to support from the Panjab.

I personally would prefer to see devolution of powers not stopping at the provincial level, but going down to the local level. but let us see what they come up with in the NA. Needless to add - the paramount issue at this time in all three major parties is to take control away from the dictator and put it where it belongs - the elected reps of the people.

Re: # 220

Tahmed sahib:

Punjab should vigorously push for such autonomy, irrespective of what happens with the East Punjab. An enterprising West Punjab will be a magnet for other provinces, instead a pariah.