Pervez Musharraf and India Pakistan Rapproachment

I feel in total agreement with your thoughts about Musharaf & his efforts pertaining bilateral relations with India.
While he also accomplished on many other fronts nationally & internationally but he is not from the politicians breed and thus remains an unacceptable subject to their entity.
He is and will be remembered for his achievements for which only those who know co-existence and mutual regard will subscribe to.

#292 Posted by vengatramanan,

No Sir! The demand of the poor is in the most part inelastic.

zeemax sahib.Looters and Plunderers was also written in ealy 2003.It was published by Shaheen Sehbai in his US based web journal.It was later also put on the PPP website.

Re: # 291

More people getting poor does not look plausible, as it would contribute to the downward spiral of the aggregate demand and therefore deflation.

Zeemax,

On the surface, the only way to sustain looks like we have to maintain the expenditure at the current levels, which is not practically possible. There can be chinks in the formula:

Growth-(Population Increase + Inflation).

Let me think over it for some more time.

Anilji,

The food production can still be doubled in India as yield are very low. But that would require substantial investments and also liberalisation of the agricultural sector.

Water and land scarcity could become critical though and thus water and soil conservation should acquire topmost priority.

(within in the next 50 year period, india would again be a net importer)

It is of course quite possible that India could become a substantial net food importer by 2050 but that should not be a matter of concern if India's economy is large and mature enuff to absorb the burden. As Amartya da pointed out, people dont go hungry because there is no food but becuase they can't afford it. As an example, oil prices which were lower than US$30 till 2003 have touched US$100 but India hasn't gone bust-yet.

Regards

Re: # 288

Majumdar:

Purchasing power parity based calculations more accurately reflect the effect of inflation on growth numbers. Can you compare PPP based agri-business numbers.

A few years ago, commerce attache at consulate of India in San Francisco, made a very interesting point within in the next 50 year period, india would again be a net importer (Zeemax Sahib's population growth factor). He was involved previously with I believe FAO. He further mentioned that FAO has study to understand global trend would create be few countries, including - Canada, U.S., Argentina, Australia as net exporter of food and grain. China may be self sufficient, if not it will also be net importer too. Just as oil comes from few countries, food grain will come from concentrated areas.

This will be a new economic reality at the global level in the later half of 21st century. This did not considered global warming trends. The single biggest reason for this concentration will be water resources, and land grabbing due to industrialization.

Zee sahib,

Re: #287

OK. Lets assume the base year is 1990. Now if the growth is 2.6% in 2008 over 2007 it means the growth in real terms is 2.6% irrespective of what the inflation was in 2008. So if we adjust for inflation the nominal growth wud be (1.026*1.05)-1.

I think we will have to refer it to our resident mathematician Atif Payee for his final verdict.

Agri growth has been 3% or less throughout my lifetime (35 years) or at least as far I can remember it. While inflation has always been 10% or thereabouts (except maybe in recent years where it has been 5% or thereabouts).

So if I apply your formula and use the following assumptions:

Agri growth of 3.0%
Population growth of 1.5%
Inflation of ONLY 5%.

the real income of Injun farmers would have declined by close to 70% over my lifespan!!!

Regards

#286 Posted by majumdar,

majumdar saheb, the growth measure is on constant production prices of a given base year, while the change in inflation is year-on-year and follows no base year rule. If both the growth and the consumer inflation (and population increase) were measured against the same base year and netted out, the agri growth in India would actually turn out to be negative.

Think about it. This is the trick government statisticians play on you.

Zee sahib,

Re: 243

(So the commies whacking monkey cops by the dozens has had some effect. Good. Soon you'll have to write ALL of them off.)

The death of monkey cops had nothing to do with the write-offs. The killer of the monkey cops- the Naxals – have their support base among the poorest of poor tribals who have no access to any credit of any sort. So no bank loans to be written off either!!!

Re: 257

(the rural/agri growth is 2.6% for 70% of population, which after population growth of 1.4% leaves 1.2% to cover inflation, which is around 5%. Does it mean the vast majority of the entire population which is desperately poor is getting even poorer by 4% every year?)

I am surprised to see an economist make an elementary mistake like this. All growth figures are in real terms i.e. adjusted for inflation. Agri growth is indeed less than 3% but rural income include some non-agri income as well. Plus there is steady migration (year round or part of the year) to urban areas which relieves some amount of poverty. Having said that, it is true that growth is not inclusive and large masses of Injun population live in shameful levels of poverty.

Regards

Re: # 269

Pavo sahib:

"... and when this backlash is created India feels threatened. So India has to talk to USA ..."

You are putting too much importance to India. Traditionally, only after its economy had taken off the U.S. put India on its Radar. Prior to it, only Pakistan gave India such a prominent position in foreign policies and military strategies.

The U.S. could have called Indian PM to come and talk, someone would certainly fly DC to meet. However, when Nawaz reached DC on July 4th emergenct meeting, after Kargil, there was a speculation of camp David like diplomacy. Indian PM refused to meet Nawaz, out of whatever, and accepted to be available to Clinton on phone. Camp David never happened. That was a turning point in India-U.S. relations, and India-Pakistan relations. Pakistani Army accepted for the first time they cannot fight and win Kashmir. Ground reality changed even further after 9/11.

The U.S. never needed Pakistan as a wrench to twist India into talking.

HAHAHA....yatha raja, tatha praja...frikking morons..

APP adds: Caretaker Minister for Interior Lt Gen (r) Hamid Nawaz Khan Sunday said there are reports that Indian Intelligence Agency RAW was involved in violent incidents in the country.
“We are sure that RAW is involved and there was no doubt in it,� he told a private television.
He said terrorist activities could not be sustained for long period without the help of foreign elements and there was growing perception that there might also be some other countries which are involved in these activities.
About the recent Swat incident in which a police officer was martyred and later his funeral procession was also targeted by terrorists, he strongly condemned the incident and said it seems like personal enmity and hatred against the victim.

Re: # 282
Tahmed Sahib:

The following last lines got left out:

"There is a history of such happenings in France, where republics were trashed and re-established. You may like to get your answers from French republics."

Re: # 280

Tahmed sahib:

Issues you bring out are valid constitutional issues. Constitution of each country enshrines various guarantees for every citizen. Implementation, however, has varied in countries solely because how much respect responsible leaders show toward the constitution.

Habeas Corpus is a legal procedure that comes from the constitutional (fundamental rights as called in Indian constitution) rights. In Pakistan's case constitution has been suspended quite a few times.

Founding fathers of constitutional form of the government made a basic assumption that constitution is not violated and no one can suspend it.

It is above all citizens.

The emergency powers provisions are enough to deal with all emergencies. Only legislative branch is empowered to change (give more powers or give less powers) constitution, powers or acts that come from the constitution.

I did try to read the U.S. constitution and Indian constitution to find out what would have happened if someone did what Musharraff and three previous military leaders. Indira Gandhi acted within the emergency powers and manipulated the system to get President to declare emergency. She never suspended the constitution.

In Pakistan's case everything is suspended. Therefore answers are not clear, as the basis of the union or federation is trashed in Pakistan.

So what law? The rule then is that of tyranny and anarchy (Jiski lathi uski bhains) as I see.

New constitution that replaces this tyranny and anarchy would have answer to deal with the culprits, when power is restored.

Re: # 280 Tahmed

"...in the US constitution, the all-important "etc." (i.e. powers not specifically placed anywhere) are placed with the states. I am not sure what the situation is in the indian constitution...."

Through the Indian Constitution the states enjoy relative autonomy in India. There is autonomy in the legislative, executive as well as the judicial powers for the states of India. However, the autonomy is limited by clear powers that are vested on the Union. The division of the powers of the Union and the State can be traced to the distribution of the powers as stated by the three lists laid down by the Indian Constitution. Derived from the Australian constitution, these lists clearly divide the powers vested on the State and the Union. They are the Union List, the State List and the Concurrent List.

The Union List: Also referred to as List I, this list contains legislations, on which the Union enjoys exclusive control. Of the total 99 subjects that are included in the Union list, some are enlisted below:
Defence
Banking
Taxes
Coinage
Insurance
Currency
Union Duties
Foreign Affairs

The State List: This is the List II of the Indian Legislative. There are a total of 69 subjects in this particular list, all of which are exclusive legislative powers of the State. Some of the subjects enlisted in the State list are as follows:
Public Order and Police
State Taxes and Duties
Agriculture
Sanitation
Local governments
Forests
Fisheries
Public Health


The Concurrent List: This list contains 52 items, which are powers vested on the State as well as the Union. Some of the subjects included in the Concurrent List are as follows:
Economic and Social Planning
Criminal Law and Procedure
Civil Procedure
Torts
Trusts
Marriage
Education
Welfare and Labor
Contracts



However, in case there is any repugnance, the Union legislature will prevail over the State legislature. In case a State Law has already been reserved for the consent of the President, or if such an assent has already been granted, then the State Law will hold irrespective of the repugnance. However, the Parliament can override the Law through subsequent legislation.

The Residuary Powers are the legislative powers that fall in none of the above categories. The lists are usually exhaustive enough to include all possible subjects, and it is generally believed that the field of application will be very narrow. These powers are neither under the legislative powers of the State nor the Union, but is under the jurisdiction of the Judiciary.


source: http://www.mapsofindia.com/events/republic-day/India-union-states-relation.html

anil sahib #250 Thanks for the link. I read your article, which was very informative concerning the federal vs state relations in India.

I basically agree with your suggestion that the federal government should be limited to foreign affairs, defense and communications, buit think it leaves out an increasingly important issue - namely, basic human rights. The right to free speech, the right to habeas corpus, the right to the rule of law.

Tbus, the US civil rights would not have benefitted from the intervention of the feds to enforce school de-segregation if this all-important right had been left to the states.

Also - in the US constitution, the all-important "etc." (i.e. powers not specifically placed anywhere) are placed with the states. I am not sure what the situation is in the indian constitution. In Pakistan I believe it is with the federal government.

yeah....why wouldn't mushy want the story of pakiland's great victory in kargil to be told...HAHAHA..

Sharif wants probe on Musharraf's role in Kargil war

Press Trust of India
Sunday, March 2, 2008 (Islamabad)
The new government in Pakistan should review the causes for the Kargil war, including President Pervez Musharraf's role, and fix responsibility for the conflict with India, former premier Nawaz Sharif has said.

The Charter of Democracy signed by the Pakistan People's Party and the PML-N nearly two years ago committed both parties to setting up a commission to review the Kargil conflict, Sharif, whose party has decided top support a PPP-led coalition government, said.

The document also committed the parties to abolishing the National Security Council, making the Inter-Services Intelligence Agency accountable to the civilian government and getting all army officers to declare their assets annually, the PML (N) chief said.

''We stand by the Charter. We think it's an excellent document (and) it must be implemented in letter and spirit.

And I have all the intentions to do that,'' Sharif told interviewer Karan Thapar on the Devil's Advocate programme.

''The PPP is committed to that because it bears the signature of Mohtarma Benazir Bhutto.''

Asked if he was still committed to the setting up of a commission to look into the causes of Kargil and to fix responsibility, Sharif replied, ''Yes.''

Sharif, whose PML(N) emerged as the second largest party after PPP in the February 18 polls, also said the charter continued to be binding despite slain former premier Bhutto's talks on a possible power-sharing arrangement with Musharraf.

Sharif has for long contested Musharraf's contention that he was aware about and had backed the plan to take over strategic heights in the Kargil sector of the Line of Control in Jammu and Kashmir in 1999, while he was the prime minister.

The conflict stalled a peace initiative that had been launched by Sharif and his then Indian counterpart, Atal Bihari Vajpayee, barely months before Pakistani troops took over the heights in Kargil.

The Pakistani troops and mujahideen were evicted after a three-month long campaign.

Asked if a possible probe into the Kargil affair was another way to target Musharraf, Sharif said: ''It's not targeting. It is straightening out things. We have to put our house in order and we want to put our house in order.''

Sharif also did not rule out the possibility of taking legal action against Musharraf for deposing him in a military coup in 1999, barely three months after the end of the Kargil conflict, and for abrogating the constitution.

''Somebody will have to be taken to task. After all, abrogating the constitution is not a small crime. Does it happen in India?'' he said.

''What is the harm if any such action is initiated?''

Asked if he would actually initiate legal action against Musharraf, Sharif said, ''Who knows? Well, time will tell. I think the country has suffered enough at the hands of these dictators.''

Sharif repeated his call for Musharraf to quit in the wake of the defeat of his supporters in the February 18 general election. ''That is why we are saying repeatedly, 'Mr Musharraf step down.' There may be a safe exit now available to you.''

Separatists lash out at Zardari over Kashmir remarks

Kashmiri separatist leaders have expressed dismay and anger at Pakistan Peoples' Party co-chairman Asif Ali Zardari's announcement that the Kashmir issue should be set aside to focus on other aspects for improving relations with India.

Zardari, in an interview, asserted that, "The relations between India and Pakistan should not be held hostage to the Kashmir issue".

"The dispute constitutes a potential threat to nuclear peace in the south Asian region. Therefore, the dispute has to be addressed in the larger interest of peace, security and the stability in the region as a whole," Prof Abdul Gani Bhat, chief spokesperson of the moderate All Parties Hurriyat Conference told rediff.com.

"We cannot wish it away. This has to be done. The dispute has to go. We cannot afford to live with tensions for all times to come," he said.

Prof Bhat said, "Zardari or any other person has to bear in mind that the survival of the region is inescapably linked with the resolution of Kashmir problem".

"Zardari has totally strayed away from the traditional Pakistan stand on Kashmir. It shows his political immaturity. He wants to appease India," said Nazir Ahmad Ronga, president of the Kashmir Bar Association.

Jammu and Kashmir [Images] Liberation Front chairman Mohammad Yasin Malik, while reacting to Zardari's statement, said, "Nobody could overlook the sacrifices made by the people of Kashmir and the problem has to be resolved in line with people's aspirations".

Malik said he favoured India-Pakistan friendship but the same "should not be achieved by suppressing of the rights of Kashmiri people".

"We should not react in haste unless we find out the context in which Zardari made his assertions," said Shabir Shah, chairman of the Democratic Freedom Party.

Shah also said that the official stand of the new coalition government in Pakistan on Kashmir would be known only after they assume power.

... correction ...#276

Read 20 million+ people as 34 million people.

#274 Posted by pavocavalry,

This too was written in 2003?

#271 Posted by pavocavalry,

IDEALISM WILL COME TO GRIEF.PAKISTAN IS A REALLY HOPELESS STATE.AN UNDOUBTED FAILURE.

Yes that's a view, shared by many, but 20 million+ people voted and gave a clear mandate despite the threats of violence propagated through the interior ministry by musharraf to scare them away. That outcome too was unexpected, and another can happen. It would be unfair to discount the public mandate altogether just if the US says so.

Pakistan's Looters and Plunderers: Politicians or Generals?
By Major A.H. Amin

IN AN answer to a question General Musharraf stated that Nawaz Sharif and Benazir Bhutto were plunderers and thus have no right to rule Pakistan. If this line of supreme piety and catholic chastity is to be followed no one can rule Pakistan whether it is Nawaz, Benazir or any soldier unconstitutional president including Musharraf.

Musharraf could have given one credit to the alleged plunderer Nawaz Sharif , which is that he promoted Musharraf out of turn, and over the heads of many competent officers, to head the Army. Musharraf is a beneficiary of Nawaz’s corrupt acts.

A dispassionate glance at Pakistan’s history proves that this country has been looted or plundered by both soldiers and civilians. It is another thing that soldiers got away with the crime because they had guns in hand while politicians were penalized because they did not have coercive military power or because they committed the crime of appointing army chiefs who overthrew them.

The vast bulk of corruption in this country was committed in the Ayub and Zia eras because it was in these two periods when phenomenal doses of foreign aid came to this country. Thus the 21 families of the Ayub era. This is a reference to the families who, thanks to President Ayub’s patronage, rose from little or nothing to become among the richest in Pakistan. These included sons and grandsons of Risaldar Majors of Hodsons Horse and sons and grandsons of Assistant Political Agents (In both cases, the ranks are humble). I know many sons and grandsons of Risaldar Majors but none became a billionaire unless he was one part of the Ayub regime.

Take Afghanistan in 1980s. As per a respectable estimate only 15 to 25 % of the cross border Afghan aid ever reached the Afghans, the rest was skimmed off by Pakistani and some Afghan middleman from the ISI and other agencies. Thus so many beverage and textile factories belong to the sons of generals, including the present minister of commerce.

The Americans gave 250 Stinger launchers and about 1,000 Stinger Missiles to Pakistan’s ISI under the silent soldier whose son is a silent industrialist. These were state of the art weapons against Soviet gun ships and air power. All evidence now proves that these Stingers had limited impact on the war in Afghanistan but a decisive role on Pakistani military juntas generals.

That these missiles were sold by the silent arms merchants was proved once one of these very Stingers sent to Pakistan missed a US Helicopter in the Persian Gulf on 8th October 1987. This led to a US probe into finding crooks and plunderers who sold these Stingers and it failed because the crooks and plunderers blew the Ojhri Camp Depot in 1988, in what was surely one of the greatest ammunition depot explosions in history. Another casualty of these crooks and plunderers was Pakistani Premier Junejo who had reduced generals to Suzuki cars [an economy compact, quite a step down compared to the Mercedes’ favored by the South Asian elite] and wanted to sack the silent soldier General Akhtar Abdur Rehman.

The list is endless. Who sold the Intercontinental Hotel to Hashwani for next to nothing, less than a simple house? Who was that general who bought Mercedes Trucks for NLC? Or was Saeed Qadir a blackguard civil servant like Salman Faruqui?

Volume wise the greatest scams of Pakistan were committed in defense deals. Only one man was taken to task i.e. naval chief Mansur, but this man too was dismissed by Nawaz Sharif long before Musharraf came to power. Another major defence scam was the Ukrainian tank deal involving ex army chief Karamat but this was conveniently ignored by Musharraf as the general is from the generals trade union !

Now to the present regime. Although it is too early to finalize any conclusions but there is no doubt that many scams would be known when this regime too is assigned to the dustbin of history. In 1999 in an open bidding for Coastal Highway a Pakistani civilian firm SK & B got the contract since it was the lowest bidder. The military firm FWO was the seventh highest bidder and was nowhere near SK & B. As soon as this military government came into power it cancelled SK & B’s contract and gave the contract to FWO asking it to itself change the design and lower its rates. The FWO failed to complete the project in time and has sub-contracted Ormara-Pasni Section at lower rates than it is being paid, to two civilian firms. ! Why couldn’t civilians be given the contract in the first place.



Who allowed MacDonald’s to occupy billion dollar land reclaimed by DHA initially for commercial bidding? Who allowed MacDonald’s to make a restaurant in the parking lot in Karachi? These are only the tip of the iceberg.

The list of scams is indeed long. Where does the buying of Boeing 777 fit in? With Hidayatullah Khaishgi a close relative of Musharraf on PIA's board of directors, is there no dead rat in this 5 Billion USD purchase? Look at the contradictions. Back in 1980s an army captain was dismissed from service on false allegations for taking a government issue bulb home and all is clean in a multi billion dollar deal!

What about sudden inflating of land rates at Gwadar with a known land mafia man Shiekhani developing schemes? With Gwadar land bought by senior military officials for 30,000/- a Kanal where a Kanal now is selling for 2 Million! [A Kanal is an eighth of an acre, so land sold to the public for $250,000 an acre was sold to the military for $4000 an acre.] We don’t know whether Gwadar would ever become a Dubai or not but it sure is a Dubai for all military men who own lands on the coastal Highway and in the Sanghar Housing Scheme.

The list is long and time is on the side of the hypocrites. It is alarming to see men who spend their lives in sycophancy with military seniors to get good Annual Confidential Reports finally picking up the mantle of cleaning Pakistan. Those who were just four years ago pleasing Shahbaz Sharif or Mr X on Farmhouse " X " now are persecuting their benefactors and not allowing them to live in this country.

They have made life a never ending self deception, an ironic play which would even make Shakespeare turn in his grave.

... sheesh the Darra dead Jirga elders are now 40. Someone blew up the whole meeting. Reports are it was an 18 yr old who didn't look like from the area ...

#267-269 Posted by pavocavalry,

This in turn is creating a backlash and when this backlash is created India feels threatened.So India has to talk to USA.

... and the monkeys think america is doing their job ...

Conclusion

The USA is dealing with sharp social climber third world leaders who know how to please and how to practice sophisticated ball lifting ! These men have no ideology and can withstand tremendous amount of kicking as they did while pleasing seniors in their military careers ! It is simpler to deal with these tinpot dictators than Osama or Mullah Omar ! If policy makers in the USA understand this fact their task would be simpler !

I WROTE THIS ARTICLE IN 2003.

NOW I AM INCLINED TO THINK THAT USA'S BELIEF THAT THE COLLABORATOR DOG CATCHER ARMY GENERALS ARE ITS BEST BET IN PAKISTAN AND AGAINST ISLAMISTS IN GENERAL HAS BEEN REINFORCED.

THEY ARE CONSPIRING TO IMPOSE SOME KIND OF SETTLEMENT IN PAKISTAN I.E DEMOCRACY INCLUDING MUSHARRAF.

IF THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN THEY WILL FIND ANOTHER MUSHARRAF IN THE ARMY WHO IS THEIR GOOD SON AND GOOD OLD HOUND FOR DOG CATCHING !

THE CONCLUSION IS THAT USA WILL CONTINUE TO RELY ON PAKISTAN'S COLLABORATOR GENERALS WHETHER ITS GENERAL X Y OR Z.THIS SYSTEM WONT CHANGE .IDEALISM WILL COME TO GRIEF.PAKISTAN IS A REALLY HOPELESS STATE.AN UNDOUBTED FAILURE.

#264 Posted by pavocavalry,

No truer words said:

The USA is dealing with sharp social climber third world leaders who know how to please and how to practice sophisticated ball lifting ! These men have no ideology and can withstand tremendous amount of kicking as they did while pleasing seniors in their military careers ! It is simpler to deal with these tinpot dictators than Osama or Mullah Omar !

India was too lrage to be manipulated although the USA did find moles cultivated by CIA like Mooraji Desai.

Pakistan was easier to manipulate through its military junta.So the USA favoured Pakistan's military junta.It always found democratic leaders like ZAB and NS as a threat .

What is happening is that USA is using paki generals against Islamists.This in turn is creating a backlash and when this backlash is created India feels threatened.So India has to talk to USA.

India was too lrage to be manipulated although the USA did find moles cultivated by CIA like Mooraji Desai.

Pakistan was easier to manipulate through its military junta.So the USA favoured Pakistan's military junta.It always found democratic leaders like ZAB and NS as a threat .

What is happening is that USA is using paki generals against Islamists.This in turn is creating a backlash and when this backlash is created India feels threatened.So India has to talk to USA.

India was too lrage to be manipulated although the USA did find moles cultivated by CIA like Mooraji Desai.

Pakistan was easier to manipulate through its military junta.So the USA favoured Pakistan's military junta.It always found democratic leaders like ZAB and NS as a threat .

What is happening is that USA is using paki generals against Islamists.This in turn is creating a backlash and when this backlash is created India feels threatened.So India has to talk to USA.

India was too lrage to be manipulated although the USA did find moles cultivated by CIA like Mooraji Desai.

Pakistan was easier to manipulate through its military junta.So the USA favoured Pakistan's military junta.It always found democratic leaders like ZAB and NS as a threat .

What is happening is that USA is using paki generals against Islamists.This in turn is creating a backlash and when this backlash is created India feels threatened.So India has to talk to USA.

India was too lrage to be manipulated although the USA did find moles cultivated by CIA like Mooraji Desai.

Pakistan was easier to manipulate through its military junta.So the USA favoured Pakistan's military junta.It always found democratic leaders like ZAB and NS as a threat .

What is happening is that USA is using paki generals against Islamists.This in turn is creating a backlash and when this backlash is created India feels threatened.So India has to talk to USA.

The Pakistani military mindset

A.H Amin

2nd August 2003



While third world military figures , in power or retired make impressive speeches at various forums and think tanks , very few outside their countries understand their mindset and motivation , which by and large is driven by highly personalized and ulterior motives !



Keeping this premise in view it is important to understand the mindset and the personalities of the third world military juntas , most important in this case being the Pakistani military junta !



The British Indian Army which gave birth to Pakistan and Indian armies in 1947 was essentially a colonial army designed for internal security and limited defence of India against external threats .The British ensured that all Indians who came to this organization were from the politically most docile and loyal classes ! In order to keep the Indian officer corps slavish they kept a 50 % quota for Indian Army rankers in Indian Military Academy Dera Dun right from its foundation in 1930-32 .



Layman readers may note that the “ lower middle class� as well as the “ middle class� by and large are the politically most conservative classes ! Social climbers by orientation , intensely careeristic in outlook and extremely conscious of personal benefits , having none or little of the pride or spirit de corps that made the Prussian junker officer defy Hitler ! In the Russian Civil War many major reactionary White Army leaders including Denikin,Kornilov etc were from humble background ! Similarly all of Pakistan’s military rulers less Yahya Khan were from humble background and all brought with them the intense greed and ambitiousness of a man from humble origins with none of the ideological idealism that distinguishes a man of ideology from a social climber !



Now the mindset of the military junta :--



1- Personal motives having priority over all other motives :-- You would find no Manstein or Guderian in them but highly ambitious men who practiced sycophancy with their seniors , hole punchers in US terms , yes men ,masters of personal manouvre in order to get the right report from the right boss at the right time ! They pleased their seniors and they know how to handle balls of any benefactor may it be Bush or Reagan where aid is concerned ! They have no ideology less personal interest !

2- View Wars and International Geopolitics as a means of personal benefit:-- The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan was a divine and phenomenal lottery for Pakistan’s military rulers ! Zia the son of a humble tailor , and many of his generals Akhtar etc siphoned millions of US dollars in private accounts , from the US aid meant for Afghanistan ! knowing the Americans well , they must have also earmarked good retainers for Zia and his ISI chief in any case ! Serious observers like Selig Harrison and Cordovez have concluded that the Pakistani military junta never wanted that the Soviets should withdraw from Afghanistan since that would have meant stoppage of US aid ! Similarly 9/11 is a heaven sent opportunity for General Musharraf since it enabled him to get US aid and the much needed US boost to stay in power !

3- Can be coerced and bought if the Bigger players know how to drive them:-- These leaders have price tags and can be manipulated to a significant extent without risking wars like the Iraq war ! This is so because their vision is personal , has none of Khomeini or Osama’s ideological agenda ! Thus if the USA sensibly deals with them with carrot and stick they can be made to conform to US policies !

4- Ulterior motives in prolonging conflicts to get aid :-- These leaders have an ulterior motive that their benefactor super power i.e USA is kept occupied in its war against terror , not because they have any love for Islam , but simply because this would bring them more aid , an important part of which is siphoned into private fortunes ! Thus at a certain covert level these leaders are interested in the terrorist’s cause also ! Thus the third world intelligence agencies have many irons in the fire whether it is initiating a terrorist outrage or encouraging one !

5- Increasing reliance on coercive power of state :-- Since these leaders have little or no contact with national aspirations of their masses , they increasingly rely on the coercive power of the state which leads either to a Shah of Iran like situation or strengthening of a Saddam like totalitarian regime ! In both cases it was the fault and mishandling of US policy makers !

6- Role of the Intelligence agencies :-- To buy judges , to blackmail politicians , to start wars of low intensity to get aid , to manipulate low intensity war players for specific ends to please or disturb their super power benefactors !



Conclusion

The USA is dealing with sharp social climber third world leaders who know how to please and how to practice sophisticated ball lifting ! These men have no ideology and can withstand tremendous amount of kicking as they did while pleasing seniors in their military careers ! It is simpler to deal with these tinpot dictators than Osama or Mullah Omar ! If policy makers in the USA understand this fact their task would be simpler !

#262 Posted by pavocavalry,

Thus while it has Pakistan in its pocket because of collaborator generals it cannot manipulate India.....but MORE IMPORTANT because it has Pakistan under its control through the collaborator generals , through this it can influence Indian policy.

I've never heard this argument before. Very interesting. It seems to have a ring of truth. Would you care to elaborate Agha Saheb?

the musharraf clique will do anything to destabilise the new government.

the key generals still think :--

1-Musharraf is indispensable
2-Both PML N and PPP are a threat to the generals , and the generals think that they are the army - total BS in reality , so anyone who is anti generals is a threat to ideologu of Pakistan...hence has to be neutralised or removed.They area also propagating to their US masters that they are the best bet , the old loyal hound , that they are best for dog catching.
3-Two choices are in front of USA.If they want to further destabilise Pakistan they will help the generals or help democracy take its roots in Pakistan.That certainly is not the US choice.Contrary to all propaganda carried out by USA it fears democracy.Thus while it has Pakistan in its pocket because of collaborator generals it cannot manipulate India.....but MORE IMPORTANT because it has Pakistan under its control through the collaborator generals , through this it can influence Indian policy.

Its all a game of grand deception.A body guard of lies.

The peace agreement seems to have broken down:

Bombing in 'Pindi killing a Lt General, the bombing of Levies in Bajaur killing 3 paramilitary personnel, bombing in Laki Marwat the next day targeting a DSP Police and again the same day bombing the deceased's funeral in Swat killing 50 - mainly Police - and this morning an attack on the Govt sponsored Jirga in Darra Adam Khel killing 22 tribal elders (so far).

Consider the following:

1)The Lt. General's killing was followed by the predator missile attack in Waziristan killing 13.

2)The Pak Taliban accepted responsibility for the Bajaur attack but not the Lt. General. No one knows who carried out that attack. According to eyewitnesses it was not targeted and the bomber disguised as a beggar had been waiting for an army vehicle since morning by the roadside. First he approached a Captain's car in the near lane, but then noticed another car with three stars on it stop in the middle-lane and bombed it instead. This is the hallmark of the Jhangvi/Jaish/Tayyaba groups who take indiscriminate revenge. The army obviously took it to be Taliban and retaliated by the predator (which are now based in Pakistan, not Afghanistan). Taliban hit back with Bajaur and accepted responsibility.

3)The DSP killed in Laki Marwat had been transferred from Swat just 2 months ago, and belonged to that area. Since even his funeral was not spared, it points to a revenge operation by the Fazlullah militia.

Above points to a deep fray of various groups (to which I have pointed before), but the Pakistan Army is pinning everything on Pakistani Taliban.

The attack on the 'masharan' Jirga in Darra is a watershed. It could either be the Pak Taliban going again for an all out war with an intensity not seen before, or it could be the Pakistani covert agencies instigating a division within the tribes following the successful Anbar Province example of Iraq. Negraponte's visit is significant in this assumption.

Take your pick.

As for my personal opinion, musharraf seems to have decided to sabotage the budding democracy yet again. Maybe he still has some 'mukkas' left.

A Milestone on the Road to Anarchy

A.H Amin



General Musharraf the military usurper of Pakistan in an article in Washington Post has claimed all credit for holding free and faor elections ! The article appears to be a lobbying attempt with USA in order to get another extension as president of Pakistan for himself.

Not after months of turmoil , but after years of turmoil which have its origins in Pakistani military junta's unconditional collaboration with USA , elections were finally held in Pakistan in 2008.



It is essential that Pakistan should achieve democracy.It is so because a truly democratically elected government will not make the compromises with USA or any other external power like a general who usurped power through the backdoor.When Pakistan's military dictator General Musharraf states that "The government worked tirelessly to ensure that Monday's vote would be free, fair, transparent and peaceful. A broad range of new procedures were put in place -- such as the public counting of ballots at each polling station -- to make certain that this would be the fairest election ever held in Pakistan" this is an insult to Pakistani masses intelligence.A military dictator who usurped power thinks that he did a favour to Pakistan by holding free and fair elections ! What a jugglery of words designed to introduce a conflict of principle ! More so because Musharrafs head of ISI's political section General Zamir admitted in an interview that he rigged the elections of 2002 as Musharraf had ordered !

General Musharraf was fored to hold free and fair elections under severe pressure of USA and its western allies.No compliment to the self proclaimed sincerity of General Musharraf !

The election is historically significant because it has in principle increased political instability in Pakistan by producing a hung parliament.Ripe ground for Pakistani military junta's intelligence agencies to further divide all political forces and make the resultant coalition weak and thus the office of the president stronger.

According to General Musharraf the Pakistani nation faces "three main tasks: defeating terrorism and extremism; building a stable and effective democratic government; and creating a solid foundation for sustained economic growth." He thinks that he can accomplish them and is ready to work with the newly elected Parliament to achieve these objectives.A chronic job seeker , here we have a man who destroyed democracy and now claims credit for restoring it and now wants to work with political parties whose leaders according to him some years deserved to be kicked.In 1999 he created a military organ called NAB and used it to blackmail the vast majority of these politicians.Later the same politicians were blackmailed into joining the kings party called PML Q.

General Musharraf thinks that great challenges are there but also great opportunities exist.He thinks that he is the most suitable man to defeat the challenges and to harness the opportunities.A claim far from reality when in Waziristan the commanding general cannot travel 45 kilometres in jeep by road from Miranshah to Bannu.When Balochistan has been subjected to a massive genocide by military action.When 5 divisions of Pakistan army are struck in tribal areas of Pakistan !

General Musharraf thinks that he is the best bet of USA to fight terrorism.Thus writing an article in Washington Post was part of a strategy to gain extension from USA .

As the Pakistani experience in Bangladesh,Balochistan and Tribal Areas has shown, military force alone is not sufficient. A successful counterinsurgency requires a multi-pronged approach -- military, political and economic.General Musharraf's strategy was to catch some Al Qaeda leaders and sell them to USA as he confessed in his biography.This he did in his own words because Armitage threatened that he will bomb Pakistan to stone age !

He wants the continued support of the United States for Pakistan but above all for himself . He has asked Americans to remember that building democracy is difficult in the best of conditions; doing so in a complex country such as Pakistan -- with its uneasy political history, with its centuries-old regional and feudal cleavages, and with violent extremists dedicated to the defeat of democracy -- is even more challenging. He wants the USA to understand that General Musharraf (Retired) is indispensableif , a peaceful transition to democracy has to be achieved . Although the people of Pakistan clearly demonstrated by their voting that they dont President Musharraf, Musharraf still thinks that he is indispensable.Like Hitler in the last days of power in his bunker thought that some miracle would lead to his triumph or at least survival.General Musharraf thinks that he is indispensable for Pakistan and above all for USA.If USA still believes this theory expounded by Musharraf then the scene is set for diasaster.

General Musharraf is all set to make sure that the parliament elected by Pakistanis in 2008 does not survive for more than an year or two.The horse trading and buying and selling has already commenced.Pakistan is condemned to remain unstable because USA has more faith in Pakistan's generals and its mercenary army which is doing the job of USA's tactical garbage collector than the people of Pakistan.A sad conclusion to the elections of 2008.Pakistan is condemned to greater civil strife and continued instability.That appears to be part of USA's long term strategy !

#257 Posted by vengatramanan,

It may well be, I don't know. My question was how come the rural/agri growth is 2.6% for 70% of population, which after population growth of 1.4% leaves 1.2% to cover inflation, which is around 5%. Does it mean the vast majority of the entire population which is desperately poor is getting even poorer by 4% every year?

Re: # 257

Pareto's curve is not India specific. At the most, the categories might differ.

zeemax,

fyi, we are in the top 5 for most of the horticulture, agriculture and dairy production.

DM ji,

Thanks for the effort to educate me.

Re: # 253 Mr Z wants to wash of hands on Kashmir for trade it appears. The India china dialogue is useless for liberation of Kashmir is not "accounting" problem of Baniyas its about liberation and letting child revert to her mother country from kidnapper.
Now please do not forget still general is head of state who wants the problem tackled and not go on discussion for ever but give and take and finishing of business statred in 1947. Now the Govt is presenting presidents govt so K problem can not be put under cover like NRO or corrouption and white washing of 1.5 Billion dollars stacked all over world. Politicians will sell part of country if it helps them to get elected. No party will survive without supporting Kashmir struggle in words but by action and proactive offensive tactics.

#253 Posted by jayp,

Restoration of the SAME judges (personalities) is inextricably linked to future independence of judiciary. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a moron and a peon of the west (where's masadi?)

Re your other point "paki legal system and judgements can vary so much between a mushy appointed judge and a Zardari appointed judge|", the formula under consideration to be adopted is the US one where any appointee/nominee is approved by a congressional committee. In Pakistan's case it is proposed to be a combined Parliamentary/Senate Committee.

But of-course you don't know that. Details don't help in the monkey circle jerk!!!

Dost ,

Hvae you ever heard of an all pakistan protest against price rises, against wheat shortage, against corruption, against electricity shortage.

One when TNT is involved, a danish man in pak soil, a lone danish ambassador, well he has to be kicked out. MAJ, you are still alive and kicking the hell of out of the second, of the two nation theory.

Feb 29, 2008 07:41 EST

KARACHI, Feb 29 (Reuters) - Protesters in Pakistan called on Friday for ties with Denmark to be severed over the republication of one of several cartoons of the Prophet Mohammad that led to violence in Muslim countries two years ago.

Rallies were held in Karachi, Quetta, Multan, Hyderbabad, and the capital, Islamabad, where protesters shouted slogans against Denmark and burned U.S. and Danish flags.

"The Danish ambassador should be expelled and Pakistan should immediately end diplomatic ties with that country," Abdul Gafoor Nadeem, an activist of a militant group, told a gathering of about 700 people in Karachi.

Zee 243,

The post was to indicate what happens in india and what the politicians have to do in response to public demands.

Take the case of pakistan, no political party said anything about law and order, nothing about price rises, nothing about mush cooking GDP books. No protests about any of the above, but one stupid cartoon in sweden is a major protest topic through out pakistan. The paost was to point to teh fundamental differences in pak values. At times you all talk about roti kapda makan for pakis, well it is a simple elitist creation by the chokies, who have enough of all that, a transposition of western values on to the pakis, while in fact they are more concerned about religion and supporting jihad.

So leave the content of my post, focus on teh underlying value difference.

Zardari is talking about indo pak trade, that is irrelevant, cutting the military budget is important, but he will not mention it.

All of pakistanis talk about re-appointing the sacked judges. They miss the point that of paki legal system and judgements can vary so mush between a mushy appointed judge and a Zardari appointed judge, well there is no legal system in pakistan that is worth restoring. No one, not even a single paki on chowk dares to address the fundamental issue, why should the legal system be so dependant on the personalities of the judges. If mushy can change the entire legal system by changing a few judges, well paki lawyers can curl up and die in shame.

#251 Posted by dost_mittar on March 1, 2008 5:39:30 pm

sheesh..haven't people heard of this thing called google..

http://www.mindtools.net/GlobCourse/formula.shtml

Let me give you an important factoid(researched by my pakistani friend, the one with whom I watch sa-re-ga-ma)

here's how the paki dictatorship screwed the paki twice over..

first, shortcut aziz faked wheat production numbers to boost the GDP numbers..this was done because india was on a tear at 9+% and pakiland was barely at 7%(with 10% inflation)

the fake GDP growth numbers were used to justify the continuation of the dictatorship.

the paki government is kinda like capt clueless...they fall for their own BS..they allowed the export of wheat based on the fake output numbers.

pakiland had a wheat shortage...inflation for the poorest touched 20%...

vengatraman:

"I don't know the mechanics behind calculating GDP"

Unless the procedure has changed, the output is estimated by a sampling method and multiplied by the price of the commodity in the base year (to avoid the effects of any changes in prices).

Re: # 245

Tahmed sahib:

This is the article:

http://www.chowk.com/articles/4913

Believe it or not last year I got an email from someone in Gauhati, who wrote that he had class discussions and this article was used in discussions. Chowk is read beyond what I thought.

The grapes were sour AND poisonous...

Kashmir issue can wait: Zardari

Print Save EMail Write to Editor
ISLAMABAD: In a major shift from Pakistan's long-standing position, PPP co-chairman Asif Ali Zardari, whose party is set to take reins of the country, has expressed readiness to set aside the Kashmir issue to focus on other aspects for improving relations with India.

He emphasised that the relations between India and Pakistan should not be held "hostage" to the Kashmir issue and that the two countries "can wait" so that future generations resolve the dispute in a mature manner in an atmosphere of "trust".

In views reflecting India's position, Zardari said he was determined to break the barriers and mindsets that deter trade between the two countries.

"The idea is that we feel for Kashmir, the PPP (Pakistan People's Party) has always felt for Kashmir. We have a strong Kashmir policy. We have always had one," he said.

"But having said that, we don't want to be hostage to that situation. That is a situation we can agree to disagree (on). Countries do, we have positions, you have positions. We can agree to disagree on everything," he said in a television interview.

Noting that India and Pakistan could "agree to disagree on (the UN resolutions)," he said "We can wait. We can be patient till everybody grows up further. Maybe the coming generation grows up even further and then let's interact as human beings and come to a position of love."

Re: # 247

Fyi, the rural population of India has a better personal disposable income than others.

Re: # 243

I don't know the mechanics behind calculating GDP. What I can tell you is, whatever output the rural population provides is grossly undervalued. For egs, the produce of farmers cannot be priced by him. He does not have the liberty of costing and spelling out the margin. Adding to the market volatility that decides the commodity prices, there are restrictions on transporting the produce from one state to another. In short, the farmer does not decide where to sell and the price. In a way the farmers subsidize the lives of the rest of the population. When onion prices skyrocketed, farmers stood to gain. The then Vajpayee government promptly banned the export of onions. Farmers gulped this as they need no propitiation.

Sorry if you were looking for a riposte.

#243 Posted by zeemax on March 1, 2008 1:38:54 am


still stand by 2010? or it's now sooner or later?

anil #231 do you recall when you wrote that article? or have a link to it?

beyond-pathetic jayp #241 "I have said that several times,I am on chowk to do some paki-bashing, .."

And I have said several times that writing crap on chowk is not "bashing". Although for the measly little man that you probably are, this is the closest you can come to bashing anyone other than your patni jee. :-)

"..more so because there is nothing in common. "

and thank God for that.

#242 Posted by jayp,

india has written off 15 billion of farmers loans

So the commies whacking monkey cops by the dozens has had some effect. Good. Soon you'll have to write ALL of them off.

But bhindia is the only weird place where 70% of the populace gets 2.6% of economic growth while the balance gets 9%. So this 15 billion is a nice lollypop which may keep the rural bhindis quiet for a while.

Another fundamental indo apk difference

from dawn of today

Underlying the wheat crisis is the second deficit with respect to the erosion of the integrity of economic data. The fact is that the position of the director-general of the Federal Bureau of Statistics (FBS) – the country’s principal data collection agency – has been left vacant since June 2003, raising questions across the board about the accuracy of data. Allegedly, the absence of the organisation’s head allowed senior finance ministry officials to pressure lower ranking FBS officials into doctoring the data.

Allegedly again, it is understood that the regime’s fetish with showing high GDP growth rates led it to ‘demand’ that output figures be padded upwards somewhat. Accordingly, it appears that while food ministry officials ‘prepared’ the estimates of wheat output, commerce ministry officials — unaware of the extent of the padding – used the estimates to allow export of wheat. The shortage signals that went out in the market from the belated realisation that initial announcement of a bumper crop were incorrect laid the basis for the crisis to erupt.

Pathetic tahmed,

I have said that several times, I am on chowk to do some paki-bashing, more so because there is nothing in common. I have said before, pakistanis are only homo-erectus and have not reached the homo sapien status, as evidenced by the law and order situation in pakistan and no one is complaining about it.

Today india has written off 15 billion of farmers loans while for a mere 1 billion a year, teh pak army is killing their own citizens with helicopter gunships in waziristan. The paki mind is no different from that of homo erctus, pakistanis appear to be human, they are bipeds that is all, and hence no similarity in terms of values with the indians.

Now please please do not come back with how handsome the paki are story.

STFU, grease up and bend over...

US experts expect army push in Tribal Areas

WASHINGTON: Pakistan’s military appears to be preparing for a new tribal-area offensive against the Taliban leader Baitullah Mehsud, US officials and experts say. “I can’t point to anything in the past that equates to that,� an official said, adding that General Ashfaq Kayani appeared to have brought greater focus to operations since taking over as army chief in November from President Pervez Musharraf. “Baitullah has gone and got himself so visible. He wants to kind of consolidate all of the FATA underneath his control, and because he’s sticking out so far, the Pakistanis are going to hammer him down,� said a US defence official. It was not clear whether Pakistan would attempt to capture or kill Mehsud, US experts said. But the military is constrained from launching an all-out offensive that could risk a backlash from tribes in the region. reuters

kashmir banega pakistan!!!


Inflation increases by 15.3 per cent

SHAHBAZ RANA
ISLAMABAD - The inflation for the poorest of the poor has mushroomed by 15.3 per cent during the current week as compared to the corresponding period of the last year.
Official statistics show that by February 28, weekly price indicator for income group of up to Rs 3,000 augmented by 15.26 per cent in comparison with the same period of last February. It grew by 0.65 per cent as against the previous week of the current month.
Federal Bureau of Statistics bulletin also depicts an increase in the rates of 37 essential kitchen items over the year. On week-on-week basis 24 items’ prices increased while decline was shown in eight. The major increase was in the prices of edible oils, rice, wheat, flour and tomatoes. The weekly indicator-Sensitive Price Index (SPI) covers 53 essential items that are mostly being consumed by the poor strata.

Far from india being bled by kashmir, the indian economy is on a tear...India still spends a smaller % on it's military than pakiland and a larger % on education than pakiland..

in a matter of speaking, this long overdue increase in india's military budget was made possible by kargil...so it was a twofer...pakiland got an ass whooping and the government's attention turned to increasing defense spending...

India hikes defence spendings by 10pc

NEW DELHI (AFP) - India on Friday jacked up defence spending by 10 percent to 26.4 billion dollars, the steepest hike since independence to fund a mammoth modernisation programme.
Finance Minister Palaniappan Chidambaram boosted expenditure for the fiscal year ending March 2009 from the previous allocation of 24 billion dollars, saying security was of paramount importance.
India plans to spend at least 30 billion dollars until 2012 to modernise the military with an immediate purchase of 126 war jets costing 12 billion dollars followed by ships, submarines, artillery and other hardware in coming years.

Re: # 231

Tahmed Sahib:

A few years ago I had written an essay that was published here on devolution of power in India. Devolution of power right down to manageable and sustainable GDP level is important. Any other thing creates unnecessary bureaucracy and politics. Government is then everywhere, this in Indian scene translate to corruption.

I am in all favor of devolution of power. Interestingly, India over the last 18 years has evolved a mechanism through coalition and common minimum program. I know in India's case 50% of GDP is controlled within its state. Nothing central government can do about it.

Re: # 232 HP

I read Stuka's post and agree with him on both counts (CTBT and the BJP election plank), although he did not provide an elaborate explanation for the motives behind testing that I did (i.e why did BJP chose to differentiate itself from the other parties in wanting to test?). As I pointed out, 'nationalist Hinduism' aside, there were other plausible reasons to test. Can you point out where my facts are wrong? I'd be more than happy to defend or correct them.

Before you conclude that, 'is true that nuke tests were a nationalist Hindu or otherwise agenda for BJP and that was the sole reason for the tests', I recommend that you ask yourself if (a) Indira Gandhi was a 'nationalist Hindu' or from the BJP? and (b) if Narasimha Rao was a 'nationalist Hindu' since he wanted to test too when he was PM?

Manto -- Toba Tek Singh
Translated from Urdu by Murphy


Two or three years after Partition, the governments of Pakistan and India decided to exchange lunatics in the same way that they had exchanged civilian prisoners. In other words, Muslim lunatics in Indian madhouses would be sent to Pakistan, while Hindu and Sikh lunatics in Pakistani madhouses would be handed over to India.

I can't say whether this decision made sense or not. In any event, a date for the lunatic exchange was fixed after high level conferences on both sides of the border. All the details were carefully worked out. On the Indian side, Muslim lunatics with relatives in India would be allowed to stay. The remainder would be sent to the frontier. Here in Pakistan nearly all the Hindus and Sikhs were gone, so the question of retaining non-Muslim lunatics did not arise. All the Hindu and Sikh lunatics would be sent to the frontier in police custody.

I don't know what happened over there. When news of the lunatic exchange reached the madhouse here in Lahore, however, it became an absorbing topic of discussion among the inmates. There was one Muslim lunatic who had read the newspaper Zamindar1 every day for twelve years. One of his friends asked him: "Maulvi Sahib! What is Pakistan?" After careful thought he replied: "It's a place in India where they make razors."

Hearing this, his friend was content.

One Sikh lunatic asked another Sikh: "Sardar ji, why are they sending us to India? We don't even speak the language."

"I understand the Indian language," the other replied, smiling. "Indians are devilish people who strut around haughtily," he added.

While bathing, a Muslim lunatic shouted "Long live Pakistan!" with such vigor that he slipped on the floor and knocked himself out.

There were also some lunatics who weren't really crazy. Most of these inmates were murderers whose families had bribed the madhouse officials to have them committed in order to save them from the hangman's noose. These inmates understood something of why India had been divided, and they had heard of Pakistan. But they weren't all that well informed. The newspapers didn't tell them a great deal, and the illiterate guards who looked after them weren't much help either. All they knew was that there was a man named Mohammed Ali Jinnah, whom people called the Qaid-e-Azem. He had made a separate country for the Muslims, called Pakistan. They had no idea where it was, or what its boundaries might be. This is why all the lunatics who hadn't entirely lost their senses were perplexed as to whether they were in Pakistan or India. If they were in India, then where was Pakistan? If they were in Pakistan, then how was it that the place where they lived had until recently been known as India?

One lunatic got so involved in this India/Pakistan question that he became even crazier. One day he climbed a tree and sat on one of its branches for two hours, lecturing without pause on the complex issues of Partition. When the guards told him to come down, he climbed higher. When they tried to frighten him with threats, he replied: "I will live neither in India nor in Pakistan. I'll live in this tree right here!" With much difficulty, they eventually coaxed him down. When he reached the ground he wept and embraced his Hindu and Sikh friends, distraught at the idea that they would leave him and go to India.

One man held an M.S. degree and had been a radio engineer. He kept apart from the other inmates, and spent all his time walking silently up and down a particular footpath in the garden. After hearing about the exchange, however, he turned in his clothes and ran naked all over the grounds.

There was one fat Muslim lunatic from Chiniot who had been an enthusiastic Muslim League activist. He used to wash fifteen or sixteen times a day, but abandoned the habit overnight. His name was Mohammed Ali. One day he announced that he was the Qaid-e-Azem, Mohammed Ali Jinnah. Seeing this, a Sikh lunatic declared himself to be Master Tara Singh. Blood would have flowed, except that both were reclassified as dangerous lunatics and confined to separate quarters.

There was also a young Hindu lawyer from Lahore who had gone mad over an unhappy love affair. He was distressed to hear that Amritsar was now in India, because his beloved was a Hindu girl from that city. Although she had rejected him, he had not forgotten her after losing his mind. For this reason he cursed the Muslim leaders who had split India into two parts, so that his beloved remained Indian while he became Pakistani.

When news of the exchange reached the madhouse, several lunatics tried to comfort the lawyer by telling him that he would be sent to India, where his beloved lived. But he didn't want to leave Lahore, fearing that his practice would not thrive in Amritsar.

In the European Ward there were two Anglo-Indian lunatics. They were very worried to hear that the English had left after granting independence to India. In hushed tones, they spent hours discussing how this would affect their situation in the madhouse. Would the European Ward remain, or would it disappear? Would they be served English breakfasts? What, would they be forced to eat poisonous bloody Indian chapattis instead of bread?

One Sikh had been an inmate for fifteen years. He spoke a strange language of his own, constantly repeating this nonsensical phrase: "Upri gur gur di annexe di be-dhiyan o mung di daal of di lalteen."2 He never slept. According to the guards, he hadn't slept a wink in fifteen years. Occasionally, however, he would rest by propping himself against a wall.

His feet and ankles had become swollen from standing all the time, but in spite of these physical problems he refused to lie down and rest. He would listen with great concentration whenever there was discussion of India, Pakistan and the forthcoming lunatic exchange. Asked for his opinion, he would reply with great seriousness: "Upri gur gur di annexe di be-dhiyana di mung di daal of di Pakistan gornament."3

Later he replaced "of di Pakistan gornament" with "of di Toba Tek Singh gornament." He also started asking the other inmates where Toba Tek Singh was, and to which country it belonged. But nobody knew whether it was in Pakistan or India. When they argued the question they only became more confused. After all, Sialkot had once been in India, but was apparently now in Pakistan. Who knew whether Lahore, which was now in Pakistan, might not go over to India tomorrow? Or whether all of India might become Pakistan? And was there any guarantee that both Pakistan and India would not one day vanish altogether?

This Sikh lunatic's hair was unkempt and thin. Because he washed so rarely, his hair and beard had matted together, giving him a frightening appearance. But he was a harmless fellow. In fifteen years, he had never fought with anyone.

The attendants knew only that he owned land in Toba Tek Singh district. Having been a prosperous landlord, he suddenly lost his mind. So his relatives bound him with heavy chains and sent him off to the madhouse.

His family used to visit him once a month. After making sure that he was in good health, they would go away again. These family visits continued for many years, but they stopped when the India/Pakistan troubles began.

This lunatic's name was Bashan Singh, but everyone called him Toba Tek Singh. Although he had very little sense of time, he seemed to know when his relatives were coming to visit. He would tell the officer in charge that his visit was impending. On the day itself he would wash his body thoroughly and comb and oil his hair. Then he would put on his best clothes and go to meet his relatives.

If they asked him any question he would either remain silent or say: "Upri gur gur di annexe di be-dhiyana di mung di daal of di laaltein."

Bashan Singh had a fifteen-year-old daughter who grew by a finger's height every month. He didn't recognize her when she came to visit him. As a small child, she used to cry whenever she saw her father. She continued to cry now that she was older.

When the Partition problems began, Bashan Singh started asking the other lunatics about Toba Tek Singh. Since he never got a satisfactory answer, his concern deepened day by day.

Then his relatives stopped visiting him. Formerly he could predict their arrival, but now it was as though the voice inside him had been silenced. He very much wanted to see those people, who spoke to him sympathetically and brought gifts of flowers, sweets and clothing. Surely they could tell him whether Toba Tek Singh was in Pakistan or India. After all, he was under the impression that they came from Toba Tek Singh, where his land was.

There was another lunatic in that madhouse who thought he was God. One day, Bashan Singh asked him whether Toba Tek Singh was in Pakistan or India. Guffawing, he replied: "Neither, because I haven't yet decided where to put it!"

Bashan Singh begged this "God" to resolve the status of Toba Tek Singh and thus end his perplexity. But "God" was far too busy to deal with this matter because of all the other orders that he had to give. One day Bashan Singh lost his temper and shouted: "Upri gur gur di annexe di be-dhiyana di mung di daal of wahay Guru ji wa Khalsa and wahay Guru ji ki fatah. Jo bolay so nahal sat akal!"

By this he might have meant: "You are the God of the Muslims. If you were a Sikh God then you would certainly help me."

A few days before the day of the exchange, one of Bashan Singh's Muslim friends came to visit from Toba Tek Singh. This man had never visited the madhouse before. Seeing him, Bashan Singh turned abruptly and started walking away. But the guard stopped him.

"He's come to visit you. It's your friend Fazluddin," the guard said.

Glancing at Fazluddin, Bashan Singh muttered a bit. Fazluddin advanced and took him by the elbow. "I've been planning to visit you for ages, but I haven't had the time until now," he said. "All your relatives have gone safely to India. I helped them as much as I could. Your daughter Rup Kur . . ."

Bashan Singh seemed to remember something. "Daughter Rup Kur," he said.

Fazluddin hesitated, and then replied: "Yes, she's . . . she's also fine. She left with them."

Bashan Singh said nothing. Fazluddin continued: "They asked me to make sure you were all right. Now I hear that you're going to India. Give my salaams to brother Balbir Singh and brother Wadhada Singh. And to sister Imrat Kur also . . . Tell brother Balbir Singh that I'm doing fine. One of the two brown cows that he left has calved. The other one calved also, but it died after six days. And . . . and say that if there's anything else I can do for them, I'm always ready. And I've brought you some sweets."

Bashan Singh handed the package over to the guard. "Where is Toba Tek Singh?" he asked.

Fazluddin was taken aback. "Toba Tek Singh? Where is it? It's where it's always been," he replied.

"In Pakistan or in India?" Bashan Singh persisted.

Fazluddin became flustered. "It's in India. No no, Pakistan."

Bashan Singh walked away, muttering: "Upar di gur gur di annexe di dhiyana di mung di daal of di Pakistan and Hindustan of di dar fatay mun!"

Finally all the preparations for the exchange were complete. The lists of all the lunatics to be transferred were finalized, and the date for the exchange itself was fixed.

The weather was very cold. The Hindu and Sikh lunatics from the Lahore madhouse were loaded into trucks under police supervision. At the Wahga border post, the Pakistani and Indian officials met each other and completed the necessary formalities. Then the exchange began. It continued all through the night.

It was not easy to unload the lunatics and send them across the border. Some of them didn't even want to leave the trucks. Those who did get out were hard to control because they started wandering all over the place. When the guards tried to clothe those lunatics who were naked, they immediately ripped the garments off their bodies. Some cursed, some sang, and others fought. They were crying and talking, but nothing could be understood. The madwomen were creating an uproar of their own. And it was cold enough to make your teeth chatter.

Most of the lunatics were opposed to the exchange. They didn't understand why they should be uprooted and sent to some unknown place. Some, only half-mad, started shouting "Long live Pakistan!" Two or three brawls erupted between Sikh and Muslim lunatics who became enraged when they heard the slogans.

When Bashan Singh's turn came to be entered in the register, he spoke to the official in charge. "Where is Toba Tek Singh?" he asked. "Is it in Pakistan or India?"

The official laughed. "It's in Pakistan," he replied.

Hearing this, Bashan Singh leapt back and ran to where his remaining companions stood waiting. The Pakistani guards caught him and tried to bring him back to the crossing point, but he refused to go.

"Toba Tek Singh is here!" he cried. Then he started raving at top volume: "Upar di gur gur di annexe di be-dhiyana mang di daal of di Toba Tek Singh and Pakistan!"

The officials tried to convince him that Toba Tek Singh was now in India. If by some chance it wasn't they would send it there directly, they said. But he wouldn't listen.

Because he was harmless, the guards let him stand right where he was while they got on with their work. He was quiet all night, but just before sunrise he screamed. Officials came running from all sides. After fifteen years on his feet, he was lying face down on the ground. India was on one side, behind a barbed wire fence. Pakistan was on the other side, behind another fence. Toba Tek Singh lay in the middle, on a piece of land that had no name.

Re: # 233

Your hate filled verbosity, like Ganesh Mutants, Mother Burners, besides your abusive language is littered here.

This post of yours shows your mind. Now you have nothing else to say so you say HBS, like a mullah's ranting of higher authority, Allah.

You present nonsense here on proliferation to Kashmir and expected buyers. Instead you saw your own image in the mirror, and started ranting HBS.

If you did not achieve your dream or did not have a dream, it is not my fault. I knew what my dreams were and I also know what I achieved and not achieved, and I worked to get there. Yes, HBS, HP Mian. Your nonsense regarding this only shows jealousy of a failed man. Out of goodness of my heart, I can meet you there in the fall centennial celebrations. I can take you along, if you would prefer.

Your narcissistic obsession and compulsion in your pico, nano, micro analysis, and abuse only brings your hatred out. Never be afraid to see yourself in the mirror, preferring to abuse others only makes you more miserable.

In case you need reminding, you started abusing me. Your threat to me to make my life miserable (paraphrasing is mine) here on Chowk is on record here. Your name calling Ganesh Mutants, Mother Burners earned you a warning and you could not post for 24 hours. These are your foot prints HP Mian. Mine indeed touched HBS.

#215 Posted by anil

You are well aware that I try and avoid reading your posts and I had mentioned it to you a longtime ago. I am not surprised that my statement hurt your ego and since then you leave no opportunity pass by to abuse me. I further caught you lying about your stated Harvard Business school credentials. That too hurt you profoundly.

I have known and worked with many HBS graduates and have nothing but admiration for their skills in understanding issues, articulating responses, and effectively communicating their thought process. Even the most recent Graduates from that school show above referenced traits.

I would strongly recommend you send your posts to your former(imaginary) professors and get an opinion on what you write and how badly constructed your responses are on different issues. The horrendous amount of time you spend in writing long posts against me would be better spent, if you would pay attention to the issues and articulate responses to them.

Abusing me would never confirm to anyone that you are a Harvard Business school graduate, because you are not. This is the end of any conversation from me to you. You can go on your merry way to write absurd and abusive posts against me and If that makes you feel better and you feel that your posts are worthy of a HBS graduate, then more power to you.

#225 Posted by Pew_Research

If and when you write on serious issues like the nuke tests by India, you first need to fact check your posts. You failed to do that and you have been caught constructing a narrative based on false time lines and non existence motives.

“Recall, I said that ‘Gujral comes to mind’ – I could have also mentioned Rajiv Gandhi’s government.�

Do you even know how much gap was there between Gujral’s Premiership and Rajiv’s premiership? Phrases like “comes to mind� show that you have no facts on hand and just decided to conjure up a fairytale.

I would advise you to read Stuka’s post #214 which sufficiently and succinctly covers the motives for Indian nuke tests. Rests of the stories are just BS including your own.

#214 Posted by stuka

Hostility or not, I merely was challenging the made up story by puke_research. It is true that nuke tests were a nationalist Hindu or otherwise agenda for BJP and that was the sole reason for the tests. What happened afterwards was just the downstream reaction of a gigantic decision which India is still trying to recover from.

anil sahib #230 I think the PML (leading party in the Panjab) has no problem with greater provincial autonomy in principal. Also note that Zardari who of course has his power due to his position in the PPP, and the latter too has its majority due to support from the Panjab.

I personally would prefer to see devolution of powers not stopping at the provincial level, but going down to the local level. but let us see what they come up with in the NA. Needless to add - the paramount issue at this time in all three major parties is to take control away from the dictator and put it where it belongs - the elected reps of the people.

Re: # 220

Tahmed sahib:

Punjab should vigorously push for such autonomy, irrespective of what happens with the East Punjab. An enterprising West Punjab will be a magnet for other provinces, instead a pariah.

Re: # 211

DMji

I truly appreciate your articles and views.I was surprised to know that u n your family suffered such horrendous treatment at the hand of Muslims and still u harbour no illwill towards them.My effort towrds posting of these articles is that to say todays generation of never to forget the history and realise how Pakistan solved its minority problem .

BTW the writer of abv artcle MR giansarup is in US and can be contacted at gsarup@verizon.net
His site is bhera.com

#227 so what brings you to chowk? i mean if yoh see nothing in common with Pakistanis? (jay thakeray has been claiming the same for years - and in fact he is obsessed to the point of insanity with Pakistan). so be honest at least, even if you cant help being spiteful.

DM ji,

Your disputation with Jayp on the commonalities of Indian and Pakistani values holds good only for the North Indians. Pray tell us, what does a Madrasi, plain maddus in Majumdar's parlance, have in common with Pakistanis? We are vastly different from the North Indians.

This should not be construed as anti North Indian stance. I don't believe in parochialism.

gibbering arjun #224 this is chowk - english spoken here, not monkey-gibberish.

Re: # 213 HP

“…First, the reported Pakistan warning to India was delivered in response to Indian military build up along the international borders in 1984 and not in the 90s…�

I don’t disagree with that, and the above is fully consistent with my assertion that, ‘Pakistani threats of using the bomb in case India escalated a conventional war were delivered privately to Indian leaders and considered credible (to PM IK Gujral, in particular, comes to mind), but not publicly’. Recall, I said that ‘Gujral comes to mind’ – I could have also mentioned Rajiv Gandhi’s government. This does not change my findings.

“…So if there was any possibility of nuke escalation, it was from India and not Pakistan…�

I was referring to conventional escalation by India to be responded to by a Pakistani first-use policy, not a ‘nuke escalation by India’.

“…Why India could not do what it did in 1965 was due to the nature of the insurgency in Kashmir…�

I meant that India could not escalate a conventional war like it did in ’65 by opening a new front outside Kashmir (e.g. Sind/Punjab in ‘65). India had the option, but chose not to for reasons well known.

“…On top of that the Indians had already been given an earful of Pakistani nuke capabilities so the chances of Indian crossing the international borders were minimal and no Indian government was willing to take the chance…�

Precisely my point!

“…Before the BJP Gambit, India did try to test the nukes but was thwarted by the US…�

Yes, this was when Rao was the PM. And the BJP subsequently ran an election based upon reversing this policy and they did so! You prove my point.

“…Indian test were greeted with condemnation right away throughout the world…�

Yawn. What matters is acceptance by the Nuclear Suppliers Group and the IAEA for FULL civilian nuclear cooperation. That offer is on the PMs of India’s desk awaiting his signature. In other words, give India the benefits of NPT and a nuclear-weapon state by making an exception, but DENY the same to Pakistan. Why do you think that the Pakistan government has been clamoring for equal status and being repeatedly denied? Even the Chinese have not warmed up to the idea of offering a similar deal to Pakistan.

“…If the world had accepted the Indian tests, then why the prerequisite of the recently proposed treaty between the US-India calls for a complete nuke test ban from India?...�

Read the draft text of the civil nuclear agreement carefully! The language states that ‘They further agree to take into account whether the circumstances that may lead to termination or cessation resulted from a Party's serious concern about a changed security environment or as a response to similar actions by other States which could impact national security.’ In plain English, this means that should India test in response to a changed security environment, the any unilateral termination of the agreement by the US (or India) should consider the reasons why this testing was necessary – in other words, it won’t be a slam dunk.

“…Proliferation was a non issue at that time…�
Precisely my point! Proliferation had been going on, but the US was not sensitive to it throughout the ‘80s and most of the ‘90s. Remember, Reagan looked the other way and even Bush senior (GHW Bush) looked the other way until the Afghan war was pretty much over and the utility of Pakistani support went down in the early ‘90s. Indian complaints were falling on deaf ears. Not so any more. In fact, proliferation is now a US problem, not an Indian one – this is something that testing achieved.

“…The Pakistanis have made it very clear that they would not hesitate to use the nukes if they faced a perceived disaster in any conventional war…�

Yes, but they are no longer actively supporting the Kashmir insurgency like they were in the ‘90s under a nuclear umbrella with a first-use threat when their possession of nukes could be plausibly denied. Not so any more. The world simply will not have any of that any more. You see, if one party (India) is not interested in the status quo through conventional war, then a first-use threat by the other (Pakistan) decreases in utility.

“…Indian government was forced to offer more concessions to the Kashmiris including putting Musharaf’s picture smack in the middle of Srinagar….the real PM of India Sonia Gandhi, had to come down to Kashmir to start the Bus service�

I have even seen a picture of Musharraf on India’s Parliament House :)! And the buses are running on time! This one really made me chuckle!

prophet tahmed: if morpheus stops by and offers you the red pill that will free you from your paki echo-chamber of self-delusions, take it..

of course, given that you're a paki...you'll likely take the blue pill and continue to enjoy your self-delusionary worldview...

pandit arjun: did you take the blue pill today?

#219 Posted by tahmed32 on February 29, 2008 3:06:56 am


were effectively lifted via the Brownback Amendment that followed of July the same year as the explosions.


prophet tahmed: the brownback amendment gave bubba the authority to waive sanctions for a year...that's soo not the same as lifting sanctions...

of course..don't let the facts get in the way of a good cold morning delusion...

#213 Posted by HP on February 28, 2008 8:33:06 pm


Kashmir story has not ended yet and in fact Indian government was forced to offer more concessions to the Kashmiris including putting Musharaf’s picture smack in the middle of Srinagar.


You couldn't force India to stop building the baglihar dam but you "forced" India to put up musharraf's picture?

wow...kashmir must really be out of reach..pakis are clutching at non-existent straws...

anil #207 That is an interesting point you make about the combined population of east and west panjab being over 100 million. And furthermore, both are among the richest provinces in their respective countries, blessed with a rich agricultural soil and an energetic and enterprising population.

What would be interesting to see is how Zardari's call for greater provincial autonomy in Pakistan combined with his unprecedented (but potentially very powerful) steps towards bringing together every group within Pakistan translates in practice. The one time a few years ago that I had the opportunity to hear BB speak in person at close quarters, she was asked what three things she would do differently if she became prime minister a third time - and she had listed improving relations with India as one of them. She had then gone on to say that in her first two terms she had made the mistake of overcompensating for her being a woman and thus appearing too soft on India. Once things settle down in Pakistan, it therefore seems very likely that Zardari and Nawaz Sharif will see re-starting the peace process with India as a priority item.

dost mittar #212 you write "Vajpayee thought that in the post-explosion atmosphere and also to reduce the pariah status in which the two countries found themselves after their nuclear explsions "

Far from being put in a pariah status, the historical record is clear that the opposite happened: the Pressler Amendment which had imposed economic sanctions on both countries (although in practice hurt Pakistan far more than India) were effectively lifted via the Brownback Amendment that followed of July the same year as the explosions.

you continue "..it was necessary to cool the temperature between the two countries"

Exactly my point, sir. :-) The temperature had been heated by India itself when it conducted the nuclear explosions and Advani and co. then started making public statements.

Anyway - there is a nuclear stalemate now, and has been ever since 1998. And this stalemate then serves as the launch pad for peace and economic prosperity in the entire region. And for that to happen on a broad-based and irreversible manner, it is much better to have a democratic government in Pakistan than a military dictatorship.

Dost,

In any case if you can find commonality, with pakistan, well that is your perception.

Let me give one example related to trade. I have read so many articles in pak news papers, even on chowk that it is the trade surplus that india has got is impeding bilateral trade. I recall that this surplus is nearly 2 billion dollars. The trade surplus that china has got with pakistan is about 8 billion and no one talks about it. Infact pakistan has no trade surplus with any country.

This I cite as a good example of the educated and the professionals following the TNT logic. One should not forget that it is jinnah who said that hindus and pakis are two nations, one worshipos the cows while the other eats them. This legacy of the TNT concept has pervaded even the economists approach to the other nation.

A missile attack from a predator in pakistan and see what the a major general had to say. from dawn of today

Lying through the teeth, a training must in the pak military officers training academy , of course other than surrender ceremony. Cry my dear pakistanis...cry..cry for some truth in the pak society.
////////////////////////

Six foreigners among 8 killed in Waziristan: Locals suspect missile strike from across border



By Our Correspondent


WANA, Feb 28: Eight suspected militants, four of them Arabs and two from Central Asian states, were killed and three others wounded in a missile attack on a house in Kalosha area of South Waziristan after Wednesday midnight.







Pakistan’s chief military spokesman Maj-Gen Athar Abbas told AFP that information from the area indicated the deaths were caused by explosive material stored in the house.

“As per our information it was an explosion caused by explosive material in a house,� he said, adding that the blast reportedly killed 10 to 12 people. Their nationalities were not known, he said.

Priority in Karachi where crime is the law, is getting rid of the beggers in streets so that the ilks of YLH and other pakistanis can claim that there are no beggers in pakistan. From dawn of today

KARACHI: Drive against beggars ordered


KARACHI, Feb 28: The Capital City Police Officer, Niaz Ahmed Siddiqui, has ordered all the police officials to take action against beggars under the Vagrancy Act in their respective areas.

Re: # 213

HP Mian’s obsession and his hatred to toward those, whom he calls Ganesh Mutants and Mother Burners, are part of his life. Narcissistic belief has convinced HP Mian that whatever nano, pico and micro analysis upon analysis he dishes out, will always have buyers. Ignorantly he fails to realize that his analysis does not even come close to fairytales which have rhyme and reason to attracts kids and help them learn. Arguing with his narcissistic obsession is impossible. His naiveté is so obvious. 1987 elections in Indian Kashmir were rigged. This rigging turned Shabir Shah, Yasin Malik, and Javed Mir, who were polling agents in these elections, to look west of LOC and later lead insurgency.

Proliferation only in his mind was a non-issue. It became a bigger issue when non-state actors (as Pavo Sahib calls them) entered post 9/11, and put Pakistan’s nuclear bazaar the issue. Till then non-proliferation efforts were targeted toward ex-soviet union countries, to account for the missing nuclear material. Islamic terrorism coming into picture put urgency to control or de-nuke Pakistan. Undoubtedly HP Mian cannot see global picture, when nano, pico and macro analysis is all he can come up?

Same defect shows up as his lack of understanding what are possible in however defective Indian democracy, yes people can put Musharraff’s picture in Connaught Place, New Delhi too.

HP Mian what is possible in India may not be possible in Pakistan, is known to all. There is no testosteronics in it. Give it up. A 20 something Sindhi boy told you, according to your own travelogue, it is not too long when your nano, pico and macro analysis is not tolerated in your good old Sindh. Putting a picture in Srinagar or Connaught Place does not make anyone bigger or smaller.

Passions do not always translate into power. Please do not run on your testosterones so high. There is no need to play the game of mirror with Musharraff’s picture in Srinagar, and smoke with the bus service.

Please do not delude, the truth is out, people who should know it, already know it.

By the way HP Mian's best after Ganesh Mutants and Mother Burners is his circular logic that drives him to produce masterpieces “The NPT was offered to India because Pakistan had refused to sign any treaty that India did not sign.�

Some circular logic to drive HP Mian's nano, pico and macro analysis upon analysis.

HP: Your hostility to India is getting the better of your analysis. The CTBT was a crucial aspect of testing. So was the absolute determination of the BJP government to test. Two distinct reasons came together at one time. Bullying Pakistan after the fact was a bonus. There was no downside to Pakistan testing nukes for India. Equal Equal sanctions hurt Pakistan more, just as Travel Advisories to both hurt India more.

#205 Posted by Pew_Research

Fairytales usually have no rhyme and reason and arguing with made up stories is basically silly. The exaggerated amount of lying that is a part of the Indian culture often makes Indians believe that whatever fairytale they would construct, will always have some Indians buyers.

What the first thing the above reference post does is supports the argument that the Indian nuke tests were directed against Pakistan and not a deterrent or to balance the power with China that has always been the Indian stated stand and no Pakistan in his right mind ever bought that!

So let’s look at how many legs this fairytale has.
In reality none!

First, the reported Pakistan warning to India was delivered in response to Indian military build up along the international borders in 1984 and not in the 90s. Second, The Kashmir insurgency started in 1989. So the two events were not related at all.

India had completed its first round of tests in 1974 and the Pak program came way after that. So if there was any possibility of nuke escalation, it was from India and not Pakistan.

Why India could not do what it did in 1965 was due to the nature of the insurgency in Kashmir. 1965, it were the Pakistani army troopers that entered in Indian Kashmir and before the Sept 1965, there were already skirmishes in Kutch! In 1989, Kashmir insurgency had a mix of both Kashmiris and Jihadis who went in Kashmir. In 1989, the issue of Afghanistan was still alive, though the US involvement in the area was decreasing but the Soviet supported regime was still in power in Afghanistan so for India to escalate the situation ala 1965 was impossible. On top of that the Indians had already been given an earful of Pakistani nuke capabilities so the chances of Indian crossing the international borders were minimal and no Indian government was willing to take the chance. Lastly, in 1989-92 there was volatility in the Indian political system and making a decision like attacking Pakistan was not possible, when musical chairs was being played in Delhi!

Before the BJP Gambit, India did try to test the nukes but was thwarted by the US.

“They correctly gambled that the world would (i) not tolerate Pakistani nuclear threats under which a Kashmir jehad could be waged, and (ii) the world will accept Indian nuclear weapons, but not Pakistani ones until Pakistan stopped proliferaton (which was known until that time privately by various governments, but the issue was never forced into the open), and (iii) the Chinese would be forced to cease covert nuclear cooperation with the Pakistanis.�

Wrong on all counts! Indian test were greeted with condemnation right away throughout the world. If the world had accepted the Indian tests, then why the prerequisite of the recently proposed treaty between the US-India calls for a complete nuke test ban from India?

Proliferation was a non issue at that time. It became an issue after 9/11 and so far there is no proof that the Chinese have withdrawn support from the Pak nuke program!

“a) Pakistan has stopped delivering covert and overt threats regarding use of nuclear weapons.�

Again no legs. The Pakistanis have made it very clear that they would not hesitate to use the nukes if they faced a perceived disaster in any conventional war. This was implied on many occasions. An active missile development program attests to the fact that the Pakistani government likes to have the capability to strike as far as possible in the Indian heartland including the cities as far as Chennai!

“The Kashmir Jehad is for all practial purposes off - the world opinion no longer buys sponsoring insurgencies under a nuclear umbrella.�

Kashmir Jihad under the nuke umbrella? Kashmir story has not ended yet and in fact Indian government was forced to offer more concessions to the Kashmiris including putting Musharaf’s picture smack in the middle of Srinagar. I was recently in Pakistan, and no one would dare place Mush’s picture in any Pakistani city. But he is an undisputed equal of the Indian leadership in Kashmir! Kashmir is not going anywhere and there is still indigenous insurgency in Kashmir very much alive and kicking. 750,000 or more Indian troops are not there for some honeymoon on Lake Dal!

Under the US pressure Indians have been forced to discuss Kashmir and the real PM of India Sonia Gandhi, had to come down to Kashmir to start the Bus service!

The NPT was offered to India because Pakistan had refused to sign any treaty that India did not sign.

I think this is enough at this time to counter the fairytale which obviously was constructed without any research. A blot on a prestigious organization whose name here is being used infringing the trade mark laws. A typical Indian habit to cheat!

shankar, anil:

I think that tahmed sahib's analysis is wrong only in one aspect and that is his thinking that Vajpayee/Advani etc. were surprised and Vajpayee frightened into a dash to Pakistan after they discovered that Pakistan too could explode a bomb.

I think that it stands to reason, however, that a wise and seasoned leader like Vajpayee thought that in the post-explosion atmosphere and also to reduce the pariah status in which the two countries found themselves after their nuclear explsions, it was necessary to cool the temperature between the two countries and a bold step was required for that purpose; the Lahore Yatra followed.

saharanpuri#181;

"Note 2: It was in the Mandi Bahauddin camp that we first heard of this attack on the refugeee train from Pind Daddan Khan in which almost all men were killed and women and children abducted"

I haven't yet read the articles but this note caught my eye. A strange coincidence that my own father was on that train; he was one of the very few people hacked and given up for dead but who actually survived; he spent two months in hospital before he was strong enough to walk.

Ally#187:

I totally agree with your post. I also think that if all those steps are taken, the shared heritage would also ensure development of more relationships at individual levels, especially between the Punjabis on the two sides and of Mohajirs with Hindustani speakers.

jayp#179:

It's not just the food that is common (and if you were picky, you could say that even in food a vegetarian visitor would have a very limited menu to choose from in Pakistn). Shared values include the same folk songs, the same dances, the same closeness of family, the same respect for elders, and even the same value that leads to honour killing; the ex-president of the SGPC is facing a murder trial for "honour killing" her daughter; even Indo-Canadian parents are known to have contracted the killing of their Canadian born daughter in India for marrying someone below their caste.

As regards the biggest demonstration in Pakistan, the same holds true for India and it has to do not with the tnt but the extreme sensitivity of Muslims about perceived insult to their religion. Indeed, it was an Indian Minister, no less, who offered to reward a prize of Rs.50 lakhs to anyone who would kill that cartoonist; and Tasleema Nasreen is hiding in a safe house in Delhi because the West Bengal govt. does not want to face the wrath of Muslims against her writings.

what's this!! prophetboy and capt clueless told us india couldn't progress without handing over kashmir to pakiland!!

FM confident of 9% growth in 2008-09

Finance Minister P Chidambaram on Thursday exuded confidence of achieving a nine per cent economic growth and containing inflation in 2008-09 and said this would help ensure overall welfare of common man.

Speaking to reporters after tabling Economic Survey 2007-08 in the Parliament, Chidambaram said that he was confident of achieving 11th Plan target of 9 per cent growth.

Re: # 204

Tahmed sahib:

"...I think would tend to lead to a a regional bloc between east and west panjab...."

A couple of years ago I had read an essay that someone had sent to me, that analyzed one such possible scenario. I was surprised to find that such economic block, becomes the largest economic entity of 100 million people in South Asia. Largest in GDP, largest in farming income and largest disposable income. Punjabis are dreamers, passionate and entreprenuers who will take risks. I used to know an elderly hindu punjabi person in California. He came from rich sahani family from Pakistan. After Indira Gandhi's attack on Golden Gate temple, his memorable comment was that "Today, the punjabi finally died. Now on their will a hindu Punjabi and sikh Punjabi."

This passionate punjabi had earlier showed unseen violence.

Re: # 183 Shankar to Tahmed

Shankar, I had not read your post until I posted mine in #205 - I basically agree with what you wrote, and simply provided a more elaborate explanation

Re: # 168 Tahmed32

Tahmed, while your sequence of events is reproduced seemingly correctly, your conclusions are unfortunately wrong. They are wrong because your are viewing the India nuclear tests entirely through the Pakistani lens. You need to look at the whole picture through a 'global' lens.

What you need to understand is that prior to 1999 the existence of nukes in the Subcontinent was an ambiguity - both sides claimed to the rest of the world they had the technology, but did not have the 'bomb'. This left India in a limbo - Pakistani threats of using the bomb in case India escalated a conventional war were delivered privately to Indian leaders and considered credible (to PM IK Gujral, in particular, comes to mind), but not publicly. Gujral never took Parliament in confidence about these threats in the '90s, and as a result could do little - neither escalate, nor bring international pressure to bear on Pakistan to stop the Kashmir jehad. In other words, Pakistani nuclear weapons had served their purpose way before '99 - otherwise, Pakistan would not have had the gumption to escalate the Kashmir jehad in the first place (recall, it took a lot less for Shastri to expand the war in '65 - but successive Indian governments in the '90s were reticent. Why? Because, it was understood in India that Pakistan would not hesitate to use nukes). The Kashmir Jihad was on full swing, leaving India with limited options. BJP was in Opposition.

Add to the above that the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty was being floated with India left out in the cold forever in a 'non-nuke' status. (The US Senate only later rejected the treaty).

The Chinese were secretly assisting the Pakistanis in nuclear and missile weaponry in defiance of the NPT.

The tests were a BJP gambit (BJP actually ran and won their first election on that plank, if you recall) to convert what was until then an ambiguity to a clear 'black and white' picture and let the chips fall where they may. They correctly gambled that the world would (i) not tolerate Pakistani nuclear threats under which a Kashmir jehad could be waged, and (ii) the world will accept Indian nuclear weapons, but not Pakistani ones until Pakistan stopped proliferaton (which was known until that time privately by various governments, but the issue was never forced into the open), and (iii) the Chinese would be forced to cease covert nuclear cooperation with the Pakistanis.

Look what has happened since:

a) Pakistan has stopped delivering covert and overt threats regarding use of nuclear weapons. To understand this, you need to compare the rhetoric of the late '90s and the early 2000s vs. today. The Kashmir Jehad is for all practial purposes off - the world opinion no longer buys sponsoring insurgencies under a nuclear umbrella. India achieved through nuclear testing, what it could not through conventional war escalation. Political aims were achieved through means other than war. By forcing the Pakistanis to unzip their fly, the BJP knew that the tumbling wall of bricks will fall unevenly and more heavily on Pakistan. 9/11 simply reinforced this even more so. No wonder, that Musharraf declared that 'safeguarding strategic assets' (code word for nuclear weapons) was a high priority after 9/11. This never was an issue for Indian nukes. In fact, even the US was forced to publicly acknowledge the danger from Pakistani loose nukes that until then they had ignored for expediency. Today, loose Pakistani nukes are no longer an Indian problem - they are a US problem. In this scenario, words (whether belligerent or otherwise) by Advani mean little -- as head of a coalition government, he probably could never have carried Parliament into a major war anyway. What matters is the end result. Having invited Pakistan to unzip their fly, Advani could afford to talk sweetly. Conventional war was no longer an easy option since the late '80s when Pakistan is though to have first developed nuclear weapons. But, until '99, India could not count on world opinion to turn off the Kashmir jehad, because the world could conveniently believe that Pakistani nukes were just a myth. After '99 all that changed.

b) A full civilian nuclear cooperation deal (i.e. de facto inclusion in NPT) was offered to India after the test, but not to Pakistan - it is India's decision whether to sign up for it or not. Bush pointedly mentioned to Musharraf at a press conference that this could never be offerred to Pakistan. This deal would never have been offered if India had not tested. This is a huge achievement for Indian foreign policy.

c) Chinese nuclear proliferation has significantly scaled down (in fact, the Chinese are now engaging the Indians more seriously on the border dispute than they have ever in the past)

Hope this makes sense.

Ciao

anil sahib #185 You definitely have a point that India-Pakistan relations, when viewed in the broader context of globalization, are bound to get better once mush is out.

Here are some directions that economic ties that I think from currect indications can be expected to grow:

1. Emergence of regional blocs: This is a definite trend in globalization in other parts of the world (notably europe). Two factors I think would tend to lead to a a regional bloc between east and west panjab: i. the leading party nationwide (PPP) is calling for greater provincial autonomy. ii. the leading party in the Panjab (PML) has a basically urban, middle class constituency and is headed by NS who has strong business credentials and can be expected to create a more investor friendly environment which no doubt will attract capital and business ventures from India as well. Taken together, and assuming an end to political hostilities which have reached a nuclear stalemate now, these two separate factors should push things in the direction of greater economic ties. Same with the two kashmirs in the north.

2. Greater trade between India and Central Asia/Iran that goes through Pakistan: the Iran gas pipeline is one example. Simply due to its geographical location, Pakistan will no doubt find tremendous profit making opportunities in the process as well.

One of the few things Karl Marx said that stood the test of time I think is that the "mode of production" determines political structures as well as cultural aspects. As econimic ties strengthen, and given the nuclear stalemate, and with a military general no longer ruling, there seems every reason to be optimistic.

Commerce is trojan horse.
Commerce starts affecting everything in long term as money is supreme. Already too much copying going on, now movies can be shown, tomrrow food, vegetable, meat, wheat. sugar will start and prices will go up. For peace needs separateness as only suspious and paranoid safeness keep smaler parties safe. Just keep respectable distance as big countries China, usa, india are not looking to help but just bring products and sell and damage local industies. This globalization has heart poor and smaller countries. This is what american and western elites want. just a cheap hard working people and dumping ground for their goods. Worst thing is we are covered from south clouds from India submerging culture of country. Now soon gas pipeline and then both iran and india will even have more say. Both will blame again when pipeline blows. It is good to have peace but no friendship as still some country is occupying J and K. Potiticians are corroupt and they will do anything for money and sell the interests of people and liberation struggles. See no body is talking about big K all toking about money and power. It is better to keep some things out of sight then they become out of mind and free of western elites slavary.

shankar #199 no, doctor sahib. the sanctions were lifted not after 9/11 but within a few months of the nuclear explosions - look up the Brownback Amendment on 1998.

#197

'Now, I am convinced chowk is not the forum.'

It is, but once in a while, when there's a pause in between swearing...

'but then romatic notions have never solved issues'

Don't discount romantic notions, more often than not these notions form the genesis of better things.

'other than economics and desire to survive the onslaught of globalization, there is no common driving force for Pakistanis and Indians.'

Is this not true everywhere nowadays, even say within India?

'Jinnah was right. We always were two nations who coexisted peacefully for a common purpose and that being economic security.'

Agreed if you mean the regional oriented parts of the subcontinent. Not if you mean the Hindu and Muslim who share a village in AP, or, the Hindu and Muslim laboreres in Sindh. I don't think people living in the same village look at each other as people of different nations.

This is from the nuggets section of the friday times. It's easy for people like col koolaid to dismiss this as comedy but the reality is that the majority of pakis, even those who consider themselves moderate, believe this shit..capt clueless' posts clearly bear that out.

Thirty wars to liberate Kashmir: Hamid Gul

As reported in daily Nawa-e-Waqt, speaking to Jamaat ud Dawa seminar on Kashmir, ex-ISI chief Hamid Gul said that Pervez Musharraf’s dialogue with India are a complete failure. He said that Kashmir will be liberated when America evacuates Afghanistan. He said we will fight 30 wars for Kashmir. America has advanced technology but the Muslims have fidayeen (mujahideen) attackers. He stressed that suicide bombings inside Pakistan are not a good move.

tahmed,

{US sanctions that had crippled Pakistan in the 1990's were lifted.}

The sanctions were lifted after 911. Before that Mushy was a pariah & the Pak economy was languishing.

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Re: # 155

"HP/Giani ji, agreed that we have to come to terms with history and accept each other. But how? What can the two countries do, except let the other believe what they believe (as tahmed suggests, but that contradicts what HP has posited)?"

When I first joined chowk, I thought it to be a forum for intellectuals to discuss precisely this point. Now, I am convinced chowk is not the forum. The baggage of history and perceived grievances have been carried over here as well.

There are few individuals here such as DM who have their romantic notions, but then romatic notions have never solved issues and always tended to focus more on the selective "happy memories".

Unless the baggage of grievances can be cast more as a lesson of history and be discussed in perspective without prejudice to both parties, there is no solution.

IMHO, other than economics and desire to survive the onslaught of globalization, there is no common driving force for Pakistanis and Indians. This common cultural, similar language etc alas are but figments of a romantic perspective.

Jinnah was right. We always were two nations who coexisted peacefully for a common purpose and that being economic security. That is why a south asians in a minority in a third country tend to be friendlier under the guise of common cultural crap when the real motive is survival - Americas being a good example. However when the same group finds a larger group of their people ala UK, they revert to their ethnic prejudices.

I beleive that this was the real driving force behind Vajpayee and Advani's desire to improve relations to open up economic relations. The mass Bangladeshi migration to India, inspite of having their own country, also supports this arguments.

Any thoughts?

Cheers

Giani

The first threat of a nuclear strike was by the Foreign Minister of Pakistan when India conducted Operation Brasstacks in the 80s. This "excercise" had so scared the Pakistanis, perhaps rightly so and so much so that they felt that it was a prelude of an invasion of their country.

This was in the 80s, around the time when the Israelis wanted India to provide bases to them so that they could take out the Kahuta and other facilities in Pakistan.

Indira Gandhi refused. Since she was dead in 1984, the genii of the big bomb was already out in the open among the diplomats in the 1980s.

All that the BJP did was make it all public. The Pakistani leadership felt the public pressue, it wasnt the army that pushed for retaliatory tests.

I agree with the assessment that the Advani et al felt that Pakistanis would suffer more than the Indians at the inevitable sanctions. Vaypayee was never for the tests. It was Advani who pushed for it.

Maybe Pavocavalry can provide some wisdom on who benefited more from 1998 onwards.

#194 Posted by zeemax on February 28, 2008 10:54:42 am


India will have to give up Kashmir sooner or later.


That's like saying pigs will sprout wings and fly sooner or later...

India will have to give up Kashmir sooner or later. It's better it does it sooner so saharanpuri quits moping.

Re: # 190

Saharanpuri:

Moving article you posted here.

"What is lost?" and then answered his own question. "I think it is love."

The above is true. He, and others like him, kept the place alive, so that time could not consign it to museums or turn it into a heap of dust. This is another beautiful reality too.

Sadly, when romanace fails, it turns into anger and spews out as hatred of kind HP Mian has done - Ganesh Mutants, and Mother Burners; and his ilk from otherside of the border have done here also.

Nony's children's generation is a new reality. It was sad to read that she met someone at Pakistan Tea House who was seeded with wrong dreams. My wish is for such people to be in minority in Pakistan, for Pakistan's benefit.

Pakistan would never think of charging Hindu and Sikh pilgrims any money for visiting their religious places. A tourist brings enough money as it is in terms of visa fees, hotel, shopping, transportation, etc...

Saharanpuri, nice article.

Re: # 190

A lovely post. I am afraid HP is going to say that this indicates that Indians want Pakistan and are not reconciled to that country's existence.

A PRINCESS BRIDE

The great-great-granddaughter of the legendary "Lion of the Punjab" returns to her home in Pakistan after an overlong absence

BY SUKETU MEHTA/LAHORE

---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----

One day in august 1947, Nony Singh overheard her father talking about shooting her. She was around ten then, a Sikh girl growing up in a big house in Lahore, just before partition. She was walking along a passageway when she overheard a conversation out on the veranda: her grandfather, her father and her uncles were planning how they would defend themselves against Muslim mobs that were returning with increasing frequency to the house. The men--most of whom were army or police officers--had stockpiled a huge cache of arms in the house. The teenage girls in the family--her oldest sister and her three aunts--had already been sent to safety across the border to Simla, a hill resort that would eventually fall to India; only Nony and her two younger sisters were left in Lahore. She heard her father tell the others that, if Muslims broke into the house, he would fight to the end. But before the end came, he said, "I will take the three girls into a room and line them up and shoot them."
We were standing on this same veranda now, my friend Nony Singh and I, 50 years later. It was the first time she had returned to Lahore since 1947. She was making a unique crossing, not merely from the country in which she lives to the one left behind, not just from her present home to an earlier one, but from approaching old age back to the territory of childhood, a realm preserved only in dreams and old photographs.

What made her return unusual was that she is the great-great-granddaughter of Maharajah Ranjit Singh, the "Lion of the Punjab," the Sikh king who at the beginning of the 19th century ruled over all of Punjab from Lahore. So when she came back, it was with a special sense of belonging, above and beyond that of the many other partition refugees visiting ancestral homes. Signing the Pakistani visa forms in Delhi, she had remarked: "I felt I own the place. How dare they ask for a visa?"

Nony had left Lahore on a sour note: a fight with her best friend Fauziya, who lived next door. Nony had made a doll, with a long plait, the face painted with watercolors, and a wardrobe fashioned of brightly colored scraps from her aunts' old clothes. Fauziya wanted Nony to marry her attractive doll to Fauziya's male doll. At first Nony agreed, but then Fauziya told her that since her doll was female, it would have to come with a dowry--all the doll-clothes and doll-bedding that Nony had hand-stitched. Also, Fauziya insisted, after the wedding the female doll would have to stay in the male doll's house--as was the custom among humans. Nony turned down the match, and Fauziya stopped speaking to her. A few days later, Nony and her family left Pakistan forever, taking the doll with her. She has always regretted, she told me, that she left Pakistan on a fight over the distribution of property.

What she wanted to do now was to go back to the two houses in which she had grown up: her maternal grandmother's amid the winding lanes of Anarkali Bazaar, and her paternal grandfather's in Model Town. Her grandmother had died soon after crossing the border, Nony said: "We were thrown out. We felt very hurt. My grandmother died of sorrow."

The Anarkali Bazaar house is now a printing shop. Sometime after partition it was taken over by the former tenants, and stacks of old books crowd the rooms where her grandmother once conducted business from behind a latticed screen with the accountants, making sure that rent-collection from her numerous shops in the bazaar was in order. Though he was quite ill, the old man who now owns the house invited Nony for dinner because, he said, he had something to explain. He was ashamed. At partition, he said, Nony's grandmother had given his father the key to the house for safekeeping. The father had kept all her grandmother's possessions locked in the upper rooms of the house, allowing no one to enter them. Then, he said, after a family dispute his cousins had broken into the rooms and stolen everything. He said he had lived with the guilt for 50 years. Now at last he could explain and apologize. Nony said later, "I was embarrassed also, and I was hurt. This was my house, and some other people took it over. But I admired him for telling me. His family was so affectionate. The human feeling was what mattered."

When she left the man's house, she was given bangles and an embroidered veil--the traditional gifts a daughter of the house is given when she returns to her in-laws. The symbolism was clear: this was Nony's true home, here in Lahore. Delhi and India were merely in-laws, the family into which she had found herself married.

Nony was overwhelmed at the reception she received, not just from the people who lived in her family's houses, but from taxi-drivers, bellboys, merchants in the bazaars. Her coming from India was good for substantial discounts in the ancient shops of Anarkali Bazaar. As a daughter of the neighborhood, she was able to buy a 750-rupee suit for 600 rupees. The elderly proprietor of a photo shop, upon learning Nony was from India, said he was, too, and asked her to have lunch or dinner with his family.

One evening we went to the Pak Tea House, a writers' cafe that Pakistan's greatest poet, Faiz Ahmed Faiz, used to frequent. A group of poets and writers clustered around us. Surprisingly, this was the place in Pakistan where Nony found the closest thing resembling hostility toward her as an Indian. A professor of Urdu literature declared that the enmity between India and Pakistan would be solved if India "liberated" Kashmir, Punjab and Assam. "I was scared of their fanaticism," Nony said. "They were so vehement. These are the people that create the frenzy. If they were my age, they would never have talked that way." After one in the group maligned Maulana Azad, a prominent Muslim in the freedom struggle who chose to stay in India and is therefore reviled in Pakistani history texts, Nony added: "He was talking like a fanatic about Pakistan. I wish he had seen that united India [before partition]. We sacrificed together, we shed our blood together to win freedom. Then what happened?" For all her warm feelings toward ordinary Pakistanis, Nony remained clear about the political gulf between the two countries: "The difference between India and Pakistan is army rule. Their youngsters hate India. Army rule has dinned it into their heads to make war. Our democracy, whatever it is, has worked."

Not always. Like most Hindu and Sikh refugees who fled to India, Nony's family did well in their new homeland. She married a fellow refugee, a farmer who in 1965 set a record for wheat production. Then in 1984 India's Sikhs suffered through what for many of them was a second partition: the pogroms against Nony's community that followed Indira Gandhi's assassination by her Sikh bodyguards. Nony and her three daughters were saved by a Hindu neighbor across the street, who hid them from the fury of the mobs for 11 days.

Once the riots were over and she could return to her house, Nony worried about what she should put on the name plate outside her gate. After all, she had just witnessed the evil attention a Sikh name could attract. In the end, she used only the number 15, the address of the house. She still regrets not being able to display a name. "I felt one day people will be reduced just to numbers," she says. "We are not proud of being anything--Sikh, Hindu, Muslim."

Her grandfather's home in Model Town was a household of women before partition. Nony's father was frequently away on army duty, and her grandfather usually closeted himself with his second wife on the ground floor. As teenage girls are wont to do, Nony's aunts and her sisters liked to play the radio full blast, mostly film music--Saigal, Kanan Bala, Nurjehan. Her aunts often stole away to the movies, a forbidden activity. Once they took the family tonga, or horse-cart, and caromed down the road until they lost control of the horse, crashed, and fell off laughing--shocking all the neighbors. Before partition the family was united, rich and happy.

When she traveled to Lahore, she was looking for something that would be defined for her by Badar, the man who now lives in her grandfather's house. At the end of the lavish dinner his family had laid out for Nony and me, Badar became thoughtful. Like his wife, he said, he was the child of partition refugees who had made the crossing the other way, from Delhi and Bhopal to Pakistan. "It is a miracle you're here," he said, turning to Nony. "It's like a movie, a dream. After 50 years, coming back to this house." Then he reflected: "Man is always in search of old things. We go to ruins, to museums. You have come to look for old things. Something is lost. That is common to all men." A little later, he asked, "What is lost?" and then answered his own question. "I think it is love."

Now, age 61 and living in Delhi, Nony is not at peace. After her husband died in 1982, she became ensnared in property disputes--the curse of the descendants of India's princely class. Her days are taken up dealing with her six lawyers and her multiple ongoing law suits, many of which she has inherited from her ancestors like a useless watch. All this has made her a bit lonely in her adopted city. Says she: "Delhi to me seems faceless."

I returned to Delhi ahead of Nony. She wrote me from Lahore: "Here I am in conversation with my grandparents, my mother, my father, my aunts, my sisters, my little brother. For the first time I am not grieving for my grandmother having gone, for my Daddy having gone... For the first time I feel that part of my grieving shall go--as if I have called them all back to meet me at a place where they gave me birth, as if I have had a long conversation with them and clarified all my doubts, of not having done my best for them, for not having given them enough love... Here, meeting them after their deaths was easier because we all belonged together, we belonged to each other, we belonged to this soil, this town. On the other side of the border we had all separated, our personalities scattered. Here we are all one, we are together in grief and in happiness... Here--in Pakistan--an enemy of my country India!"

#187 Posted by Ally on February 28, 2008 9:27:20 am


I think Pakis should look at the relationship with India on a business and economical front without any sort of emotion or any of that kind of stuff...


I think that's a great idea..unfortunately(for pakis), the pakis don't want any of that. they'll only open up trade if kashmir is resolved..resolved the way THEY want it..


They should sign a 'no war' treaty with India


Does that include no proxy war?

not only that, the nukes meant pakiland could continue to support islamic terrorism against india...bleed india without being affected..

wonder if col koolaid agrees with this alternate version of reality...

Dost Mittar Ji

Thanks for the article... i havent read the 000's of replies, zahir haiN lots will be aney taney, tu tu meiN meiN which i am not going to partake in... khair here are my two annas worth

I think Pakis should look at the relationship with India on a business and economical front without any sort of emotion or any of that kind of stuff...

They should sign a 'no war' treaty with India this way Pak army cant justify the humongous budget they take... also now that the M1 is complete a person can go from Lahore to Peshawar on a real and proper motorway like what you get in the west and developed countries... Pak can open this route for over ground trade between India and A'stan, charging money out of the Afghanis and Indians for using the land route...

We should give Indians and NRI's visa on entry access so that they can come and visit their shrines etc and add to Pak economy...

We should remove 3rd party countries like Dubai and Singapore for trade and trade directly...

Pak should market itself aggressively to India and allow Indian businesses to invest in Pak freely...

The usual cultural shor sharaba should also be increased, Pak should ask B'wood people to film in Pak, this way ALL Indians get to see Pak :)

Khair... this is just my thoughts maybe its time we rose above the haters and jhuppi brigade and made sensible trade... after all South Asia region was richest in world at one point, why? because of traditions of trade!

#184 Posted by tahmed32 on February 28, 2008 7:13:22 am


So, what happened? Nothing. Indeed, suddenly the clouds lifted for Pakistan


yeah..the clouds lifted and pakiland was able to occupy parts of indian kashmir without having to worry about the indian army fighting back...their nukes kept the indians in check and the pakis still control kargil...

Re: # 168

Tahmed sahib:

There is a shade of BJP walas who are known to provoke Pakistan, and Indian Muslim too, you have seen this shade here at Chowk also. Pakistan predictably returns their favor each time, just like many Pakistanis do at Chowk. That time it returned, BJPs provaction with the explosion, even though following Bill Clinton's advise would have been a lot saner. Pakistan would have benefitted, and India would have been isolated on this nuclear issue.

Rest of what I wrote are factors and evidence that why India and Pakistan fought their final war to settle scores militarily a long time ago.

These factors are - Generational Change in both countries, Presence and Emergence of Grass Root Democracy in Pakistan, Tired Pakistani Middle Class of Army in Politics, and soon would be fed up with Army in their businesses also.

I also included that nature of coalition democracy in India does not lend to unanimity need to treat Pakistan as large enough enemy to go to war, something Indian generals on their own - unlike in Pakistan - cannot do.

I also mentioned that the dreams and aspirations of Indian middle class no longet make armed forces and even civilian bureaucracy as preferred choices for professional and personal growth.

I mentioned that a new paradigm will be defined by likes of Shoab Akhtar, Adnan Sami, and even our own Romair. When a new wave of Pakistani entreprenuers inevitably emerges, they too will be party to defining this new paradigm.

These new wave Pakistanis will compete in India, and not with India. They will compete with anyone, anywhere and at anytime, just as the rest, in globalized economy. Their dealings will have no room or time for older romantics or haters who express their anger or thoughts that allow Pakistanis, like HP Mian, to express ingrained hatreds by calling Indians as Ganesh Mutants and Mother Burners.

shankar: as long as we are clear on the basic facts i think we are already ahead. the next step, i.e. to process facts without tinting them with our emotional ties is i suppose much more difficult if not humanly possible. (how's that for "chowk psychiatry", doc?) but..let me try anyway to take this next step:

you say that BJP was "well aware" that pakistan had the bomb (as it should have been) and its rhetoric was designed to bring it out in the open. This is quite a stretch - given that India itself had to come out in the open as well on what it had been claiming for years.

But let us for the sake of argument accept this stretch as well. So - India brought Pakistan into the open (per your argument). So, what happened? Nothing. Indeed, suddenly the clouds lifted for Pakistan - BJP switched from threats to peace-talk. US sanctions that had crippled Pakistan in the 1990's were lifted. Hey, with enemies like BJP, Pakistan never needed any friends. ;-)

tahmed,

your sequence of events are right. However, I diagree with you re your conclusions.

RAW, despite all its criticism, was aware that Pak had the bomb.Heck, AQ Khan openly boasted about it.

So the BJP was well aware that Pak had the bomb. So, why up the ante? I think they wanted to bring it out in the open. I think they figured that sanctions would hurt Pakistan more than India.

In fact, between the testing & Pakistan's decision to give a "fitting response", India was quickly getting lot of international condemnation. India would have been in real deep trouble if Pakistan did not respond. Hence, George Fernandez upped the ante.

In hindsight, if this issue wasnt in the forefront, I dont think AQ khan would have been exposed for running a nuclear Wal-Mart.

#174 Posted by dost_mittar on February 27, 2008 8:22:25 pm


too much water has flown down Jhelum for India to reverse its policy in this regards without raising both domestic and international howls.


domestic howls? really? there's a major constituency in India that is opposed to that? who are these people?

and international howls? who exactly is it that will howl enough to force India to change it's policy? if you think the US will do anything about it, you're out of touch with reality...

India passes a parliamentary resolution in the 90s saying the whole of kashmir was a part of India..nothing happened then..

I say let the pakis have the kashmiris if they want them so bad...

The Long Journey (Part II): Mandi Bahauddin, Pakistan to Delhi, India



Gian Sarup



The first half of this part of the journey takes the community of Bhera’s Hindus and Sikhs from their arrival at Mandi Bahauddin Refugee Camp in Pakistan to Atari, the first Indian railway station east of the Wagah border. The narrative in this part is one of jug-beeti; what the community went through from the day of its landing at the Mandi Bahauddin railway station to the day of its safe arrival in India. The second half of this segment extends from Chhe-Harta in Amritsar to Delhi via Ludhiana and Ambala Cantt, and is more like an aap-beeti, our family looking for and finding its lost daughters and their families and coping with problems of homelessness. It also has an element of jug-beeti to the extent it represents the broad experiences of other refugee families who sought their missing relatives and struggled to secure a roof over their heads in India.



Once we disembarked from the special train at Mandi Bahauddin and after our elders had conveyed their gratitude to the Captain for saving our lives, we were made to march to a walled complex of cotton mills abandoned by its Hindu/Sikh owners. On the way to this cotton mills area, the men from the Baloch army-unit kept pushing and goading us to move faster by hitting us at times with their rifle butts. I saw one of the soldiers hit the headmaster (Mr. Pindi Das Chopra) of our school, and his teenage daughter started crying (see Note 1). Later, some people surmised that the harsh attitude of the Baloch soldiers was probably due to their anger at having learned from the train crew that the safety of the arriving Hindus and Sikhs was secured at the cost of several Muslim lives.



My younger brother Rajinder and I were carrying some bags and utensils containing the food cooked by our mother in Bhera for the journey. Fried breads like puris and to some extent prathas do not spoil readily. The bags were not heavy, and we walked fast to arrive in a cotton mill compound. We were separated from our mother, father, and elder brother. Other families also got split on the way. It took some time for people to find each other. The huge, windowless godowns (warehouses) for cotton storage were deep, dark caverns; their only sources of light were two big gates on the same side. The lack of cross-ventilation made the humid heat inside these godowns most unbearable. We chose to stay in the open.



After spending only a few hours in the cotton-mill compound, we were ordered to march to a different site .We were escorted by the same men, but this time there was no undue rushing and harsh prodding. We landed in the abandoned building of the town’s Khalsa (Sikh) High School. The classrooms were bright and airy, verandahs provided ample shade, and the school’s lawns in quadrangular compounds had trees and shrubs. Our family spent the first night in the open compound; our area was no more than the area of two side-by-side beds. At night, the retarded daughter of one of our immediate neighbors in the compound kept throwing her rather heavy legs on our mother. Our mother took the punishment; none of us could save her from this thrashing. The women had to sleep next to women, and men could sleep next only to men from other “adjacent� families. In the open, there were no boundaries of privacy between families, except that men and women from different families could not be contiguous to each other.



Next day the families from Bhera were able to move into empty classrooms. There were no desks or any other furniture in the school’s classrooms; they had been apparently removed by the looters. In one classroom, I found two chemistry-lab beakers that served as our glasses. In another, I found an Urdu book that recounted the adventures of Omer Ayaar (Omer, the clever and naughty) as a child and young boy. It gave me a few days of very enjoyable reading.



Some families had limited cash on their hands. They were worried how long would their cash reserves last for food if the length of their stay in the camp got stretched beyond their resources. Luckily, the Muslim vendors just outside the camp charged reasonable prices for the grocery items like wheat flour, oil, vegetables. Almost all men in the camp were without work and income, except for a few doctors who charged nominal fees for their consultations. One person who was most in demand and made the most money in the camp was the sole Hindu barber from Bhera. Older people of our father’s generation were not used to shaving with safety razor blades. They were dependent on the barbers to give them their daily shave with their folding razors. The boys in the camp happily skipped their haircuts, but most of the elderly people needed their faces shaved every second or third day, depending upon how busy the resident Hindu barber of the camp happened to be on a given day.



Then the cholera broke out in the camp. The reasons were not far to seek. The crowding and the unhygienic conditions in the camp were most likely to have brought it about. There were very few toilets (mostly dry latrines that were infrequently serviced), far too few for the thousands of men and women. Most people went to the open areas around the camp and relieved themselves. The children would climb the stairs to go to the roof of the classroom buildings for the same purpose. Pretty soon, the sanitary situation worsened; there was a lot of filth and stench in the relieving areas. As the deaths due to cholera started to increase; we could see from the roofs several cremation fires burning next to the camp in the evenings. Among those who died of cholera was the wife of Lala Ralla Ram, who had a goldsmithy shop not far from our father’s sarafa shop. She died away from home, leaving behind her two young daughters and husband in the camp. One heard rumors that nila-thotha (copper sulphate) was being mixed in the milk that was sold by Muslim dairymen to the camp residents. The dairymen used to bring their buffaloes to a main road near the camp to sell the fresh milk. Every one insisted that the buffaloes be milked in the customers’ presence. That was done, but it did not stop the cholera. Most people started drinking boiled water, and washed the vegetables thoroughly before cooking them. Whenever any one of our family members had queasy feelings, we were given a teaspoon of brandy which we had brought with us in a quarter-sized bottle. We considered brandy as the medicinal antidote for all manner of gastric troubles. No one in our family got cholera; we were lucky because the brandy could not have stopped it. Lala Ralla Ram’s wife was given some brandy for her loose motions and vomiting, but it did not help her.



To relieve the crowding in the school building, the camp authorities permitted the camp residents to move into regular houses on the street that connected the school with the town. There was a great rush to get private rooms for the families. Our family managed to occupy a kitchen for our room in a big house with four apartment-like units. The house had a large inner compound. Our neighbors in this house were the extended family of Lala Daya Ram Kapoor from our mohalla, and another family of Lala Des Raj Mehta who for many years had served as an elected member on the Bhera’s municipal committee. He had, however, lost his seat to a Young Turk, Dewan Dina Nath Sahni, in the last municipal elections held before the country’s Partition.



In the pre-Partition era, Mandi Bahauddin was a flourishing, well-to-do town, not far from the town of Chillianwala where the Sikh armies valiantly fought the British forces in 1849. In the pre-Partition days, visitors to Mandi Bahauddin were told that, if they were to visit the battle ground near that town, they could still find the shells of the bullets fired in the battle. The Sikh families of the town were the most prosperous ones, and had constructed spacious houses, each house having several living units within it, but only one main entrance. Most of the houses were double-storeyed, and had hand-pumps for the second floors as well. Unlike Bhera’s, Mandi Bahauddin’s streets ran parallel and were straight, wide and paved.



I had spent my one summer vacation around 1941-42 at my younger sister’s house in Mandi Bahauddin. Her husband was a doctor who had started his private practice in the town after obtaining his LSMF medical degree from the Christian Medical College in Ludhiana. My brother-in-law also taught Physiology at the town’s Khalsa High School, the site of our camp; the school did not offer that many classes in Physiology to warrant the hiring of a full-time instructor for this subject. I had very pleasant memories from my earlier visit to this town. Five years later in September of 1947, I found the town deserted and looking forlorn. Its entire Sikh/Hindu population had already left the town, and Muslims from other towns had yet not moved in to fill the vacuum caused by the exodus of local Hindus and Sikhs.



Our month-long stay in the Mandi Bahauddin camp was one of unnerving uncertainties, a cholera epidemic, and numerous hardships and deprivations. Our sojourn in this town came to an end with the arrival of a special train that took us on our journey from Mandi Bahauddin to India. The train had its first stop at Lal Musa Junction. This railway station used to be a very busy place twenty-four hours a day, bustling with hurried transit passengers, railway porters and hawkers of food stuff. Now there were not any passengers, porters, or hawkers to be seen at the platforms. It appeared that the normal train runs and most other operations had been suspended due to the widespread disturbances.



Our railway compartment’s only toilet was utterly messed up by overuse; nearly a hundred nervous men, women, and children using it. We requested a railway employee who was sweeping the platform to clean up our toilet for something like a hundred rupees (it was a big sum then) or for any price he thought fit. He was half tempted by the size of the reward, but thought it appropriate to consult with one of his colleagues. His colleague told him in our presence not to do the job for the Hindus! By comparison, the Muslim jamedars of Bhera thankfully continued to clean our latrines until the last day of our departure.



In normal times, passengers on the trains approaching from the Malakwal side had to change trains for their onward journey in the direction of Lahore or Rawalpindi. Now because of the disturbed conditions, it was not advisable to allow the refugees to walk to another platform for boarding a different train. Our train needed to be shunted and re-routed to continue its journey in a different direction to the Indian border via Lahore. We knew it was going to be a long stop, but not as long as it turned out to be.



The train waited for a few hours at the platform where it had arrived from Mandi Bahauddin, and then it was moved to a distant and deserted shunting area for the night. This secluded area gave us shivers of concern and fright. There was a small military escort to protect us if we were to come under attack, but we were not sure that they would be able to stop the mobs if they turned out in large numbers. Partly because we were not informed as to why the train was moved from the railway platform to this lonely spot, we thought that the move was perhaps a plot to facilitate an attack like the infamous one that had taken place near Kamoke (see Note 2). We kept a night long vigil, prayed non-stop, and panicked at any unusual sound that came from any direction. The morning brought a big relief. The fears of an overnight attack were not borne out. Now we could hardly wait for the train to be on its way to India.



The train finally left the Lala Musa station around noon time and sped past towns like Gujrat and Gujranwala (we could see the burned out houses and shops that bordered the railway tracks). But it had an uncomfortably long stop at Muridke. The engine-driver left the train at this station to get some milk from the town for his tea. He took more than two hours to return, while the train-load of refugees waited for him in a state of panic! Next, the train stopped briefly at Mughalpura, and then came to a much longer halt near Harbanspura for hours. It was around 9:00 p.m. when our train stopped there. The inordinately long stop, so close to our destination, was dragging on, and giving us lots of anxiety and fright. We could hear the sound of beating drums (which for us meant a kind of clarion call for mobs to gather and raid the train). Because our train was once again not parked at a platform, it felt disturbingly eerie around the train. We did not dare step down from the train. We learned later that the Muslim locomotive-driver, out of concern for his own safety, had declined to drive the train into the Indian Territory. It took a lot of persuasion and guarantees by the armed escort to persuade the unwilling driver to take the train to Atari, the first station after the border with India. It was around 3:00 in the morning when our train finally reached Attari after crossing the Wagah border we could not see. Almost all of us got down and knelt on our knees to kiss the soil of India. We shouted loudly, “Bole So Nihal, Sat Sri Akaal; Har Har Mahadev.� Hundreds of local Sikh men and women were there to welcome us at that early hour and to treat us to chappatis and daal, a very precious meal after 44 hours of train journey in the land that had turned hostile and murderous.



The train then took us to Chhe-Haratta, a satellite town of textile mills west of Amritsar, where the entire train load of refugees disembarked. We found an evacuated shop for our temporary stay in this town. The shop was a brick structure with a wide door that opened on the Grand Trunk road. Our parents bought milk, sugar, flour, and tea leaves from somewhere. They also brought a pan full of “cream� from which they planned to make ghee by heating it and skimming the milk-solids from the top. We must have looked emaciated to our parents; they wanted to provide us the missed Punjabi “essentials� of butter and ghee for good health.



Like most Indian shops, our shop-residence in Chhe-Haratta did not have any toilet facilities inside the premises or a nearby community facility. We all had to cross the Grand Trunk Road to find an uninhabited open-air area for use as a toilet facility. Luckily for us, we were used to squatting and hardly a furlong away from the road we found an abandoned brick kiln that served the purpose. Earlier, we had brought several bricks from the kiln to improvise a chullah (stove) in the shop for cooking.



When we were still in Bhera and saw the situation for the Hindus and Sikhs getting increasingly hostile and hopeless all over western Punjab, our family thought constantly and worried about the well-beings of our two married sisters and their families living in Rawalpindi and Mianwali. The postal services had almost broken down, residential telephones were non-existent in those days, and traveling by train had become suicidal. There was no way to find out how they were doing. Our sisters were equally concerned about their parents and brothers in Bhera. We were to learn later that, after our elder sister’s family reached Taran Taran in India from Rawalpindi, our brother-in-law traveled from one big city to another in Indian Punjab, trying to find us in refugee camps or any one else from Bhera who knew of our whereabouts.



One day our parents and elder brother, Prem Sarup, went to Amritsar to gather any news about our two sisters and their families. Were the families of our sisters stuck in those towns or they were able to escape well in time to India? Were they alive, safe in India, or were they kidnapped, killed, hurt, or trapped in Pakistan? The in-laws of our elder sister were settled in Tarantaran (near Amritsar). Our parents ran into someone who had recently met our sister’s in-laws in that town. They learned from him to our great relief that our elder sister’s family had safely made it to India from Rawalpindi a few days before August 15. We found out further that she and her family had moved to Patiala to stay with her elder brother-in-law’s family. However, our parents could not get any news about our younger sister and her three-year old son who were in Mianwali with her in-laws at the time of country’s partition. There was no organized source of information in Amritsar or anywhere else to find out the fate of Hindus and Sikhs from Pakistani towns. We prayed for the safety of our sister, her son, and her in-laws.



Early one morning in Chhe-Haratta, a caravan of tired, haggard, young and old men and women was moving in front of our shop-residence along the Grand Trunk Road. This was a caravan of Muslim refugees trudging toward the Pakistani border. They had their slow moving bullock carts to carry their children and the old and infirm. A few goats and donkeys were also in tow. Their clothes were tattered and covered with dust; they had apparently been on the road for several days. From the kind of clothes they were wearing, it appeared that they were from areas like Panipat, Karnal, Rohtak, and Gurgaon from the Ambala division of undivided Punjab. None of the women were wearing burqa. They were poor folks from rural areas. They had a military escort accompanying the caravan. The unending stream of men, women, children, and their carts flowed slowly but steadily. We watched them from the shop we were living in. We were so benumbed by own experiences as refugees that we did not feel much empathy at that time for those who were going through a much greater hardship in getting to their promised land of shelter. But, we did not feel any hostility against these poor folks who were being made to pay for the escalating madness of others on each side of the border. They must have been worried over the prospect of spending another anxious night in the open on the Indian side of the border; the remaining distance to Pakistan would have taken longer than the remaining daylight hours they had for their trek.



One day while our parents and elder brother were away to Amritsar, Rajinder and I thought of treating ourselves to hot tea. We built the fire in the chullah (stove), put a patilla (pan) half-full of water on the stove, threw in a few spoon-full of tea leaves, and brought the water to boil. When we poured half a cup of milk into the dark brown brew, much to our surprise the brew turned pure white like regular milk. We threw in more tea leaves, but the brew retained its whiteness. We sipped the white brew; it tasted somewhat like hot tea, but did not look the brewed tea we got used to drinking in the Mandi Bahauddin camp. We attributed the transformation of the brew into a pure white beverage to the remarkable purity of the Amritsari milk. When our parents returned, we told our mother of what had transpired. She asked us from where we had gotten the milk when there was no milk at home. We pointed out the pan from which we had taken half a cup of milk to pour into the tea brew. She told us that it was no milk; it was the cream from which she was going to make ghee for us! She asked us if we had noticed the richness of the crème compared to the ordinary milk. We as children in Bhera had never heard of “cream.� I do not think our mother had heard of it either, but someone must have told our parents to go for this milk-product to make unadulterated ghee at home.



After staying in Chhe Haratta for no more than four or five days, we got a train from Amritsar and reached Ludhiana. We stayed there with our father’s cousin-sister (Bhua VeeraN) who with her family had left Bhera a month or so before August 15. They were staying in the vacant house of a Muslim family who had apparently left for Pakistan in the wake of riots. In one niche of a room, they had found a miniature copy of the holy Koran. One day, my elder brother and I hawked the local Urdu newspaper at the railway station to earn some money, but our enterprise was cut short by the regular newspaper vendors who got us chased out.



Meanwhile, our brother-in-law (the husband of our elder sister) had been traveling to several cities like Amritsar, Jalandher, Ambala, and Ludhiana in Indian Punjab to look for us. Our elder sister and at that time her only child (our niece) stayed back with the family of our brother-in-law’s brother in Patiala while he was searching for us. Finally, he found us in Ludhiana. We learned from him that our younger sister and her son were in Lucknow staying there with her brother-in-law’s family. He did not know more about her, but it was singularly good news to hear their safe arrival in Lucknow. Our brother-in-law advised us to go to Ambala where he would join us after personally briefing our sister in Patiala about our well-being.



Our next stop was Ambala Cantonment. The train from Ludhiana terminated its run there. We were advised by someone to go to a refugee camp on the outskirts of Ambala Cantt. There we found an open-air grassy spot in the Prem Nagar refugee camp. It was now early November when Ambala nights get quite cold. We bought or were given two sets of razaais (quilts) and tulaais (cotton mattresses with the thickness of a quilt) by the camp authorities. We did not get a tent, so we had to sleep in the open. When we got up early in morning, we found the outer side of our quilts was soaked wet and the overnight dew drops had coalesced to start dripping from the quilts on to our tulaai mattresses.



We had brought some pots and pans from our stay in Chhe-Hartta, we needed some wood to make fire for making tea. Rajinder and I walked to the nearby railway tracks that were lined by trees, and started foraging for fallen twigs and branches for the needed fuel. While we were busy in this task, a train passed us. A boy from our mohalla, Ved Bahri, was waving at us from the boarding steps of the packed train. We were quite excited to see a familiar face from Bhera, and waved back joyously.



The same day or a day later, our brother-in-law arrived in Ambala and took us from the open-air camp site to the Arya Samaj Mandir in Ambala Cantt. We were allowed to stay in the hall’s two-foot wide gallery (balcony) that went along the hall’s four inner walls and was at the first floor level above the ground floor. We had to cook outside the hall, but we had a roof over our head and access to regular toilets.



Ambala was relatively easy to get in, but it was real hard to get out of Ambala at that time, especially if you were a refugee who wanted to go to Delhi. The Central Government in Delhi had banned the entry of Hindu and Sikh refugees to Delhi for fear of further riots against the town’s Muslims. Hindu and Sikh refugees like us from Pakistan had to apply for permits to get on any Delhi-bound train. A member of the Board that issued permits for travel from Ambala to Delhi, was Mr. Jaswant Rai. He was the principal of the D.A.V. College, Rawalpindi, and our brother-in-law who was the Art & Drawing teacher in the D.A.V. High School knew him. Our brother-in-law was able to persuade Mr. Rai to grant us the prized permit. But one had to wait for days to get a train to Delhi. No trains were running on schedule to Delhi. So we were camped at the Ambala Cantt railway station to catch any train that could carry us to Delhi.



The Ambala Cantt railway platform was packed with refugee squatters waiting for any Delhi-bound train. While waiting there, someone from our naanaka (maternal grandparents) town, Jalalpur Sharif, recognized our mother and told her that her old mother (our grandmother, Naani) with her son’s family was camped in the passengers’ waiting room outside of the railway station. My mother took me along to visit her mother and her brother’s (our uncle’s) family. I was carrying the permit that would allow us to re-enter the railway platform. The huge waiting room (the waiting halls outside a railway station only had roofs, but no walls) was overflowing with refugee families who had eked out barely enough space to spread their legs. After checking with a few other occupants of the waiting room we were able to locate my grandmother, my aunt and three cousins in very shabby circumstances. My grandmother was lying on the floor, looking listless with her eyes closed. She was very sick with gastroenteritis, dehydrated and barely alive. Our mother (Bhag Vanti) held her mother’s hand and tried to wake her mother, “Baibai, mein Vanti aan, Baibai.� (Mother, I am Vanti, Vanti; Mother). Our grandmother struggled to shed her daze, and greeted her daughter back, “Vantiaye, theek hein, Hori Lall (our father) and bachhe theek nein,� (Vantiaye, are you fine; Is Hori Lall alright, are the children fine?). The Maan Beti (Mother-Daughter) met, cried, and talked. We learned that her son (our uncle) and a grandson were stuck in Murree, and it was our aunt (her daughter-in-law) who had managed to bring her family from Jalalpur to Amballa Cantt. Our aunt was also taking care of the grandma, cleaning her up, and washing her soiled clothes. She also had to carry her old and sick mother-in-law (our Naani) on her back from place to place. There was no medical care available to the refugees in these terrible conditions. Our mother must have sensed that it was to be her last meeting with her mother?



Afraid that a train to Delhi could show up any time at the platform where other members of our family were waiting with our very meager belongings, I kept pushing my mother to cut short her talking with her mother so that we could return to the platform. She rebuked me severely for my pestering haste and lack of regard for my grandma. After about half-an-hour of the reunion, my mother and I walked back to the platform.



Several weeks after we managed to reach Delhi, we learned that our Naani ji had died the day after our mother had met her in the Amabala waiting room. The morning after she met her daughter, her son (our uncle, mamaji) and her eldest grandson showed up to rejoin their family. It was a miracle for its timing. Our grandma was most glad to see them, especially her grandson of whom she was very fond. Hardly two hours after this second reunion, she breathed her last. It appears that she had held on to her life for an extra day to meet her only daughter, her younger son and a grandson for the last time. Then she died in peace. She was cremated in a city hundreds of miles away from her hometown, in an alien place that she had perhaps never heard of in her life! At least, her son was there to light her pyre.



In 2003, I was in Ambala Cantt for two or three days. I tried to locate and visit the waiting room where our Naani had passed away 56 years earlier in such pitiable conditions. The entire area was utterly changed and so congested that my efforts to see and photograph the place where she had breathed her last did not work out.



Going back to the day we were at the Ambala Cantt. Railway station waiting to catch any train that would take us to Delhi, a train arrived well past midnight. There was a virtual stampede at the platform when a train said to be for Delhi came to a stop. The train was already packed many times its capacity. Getting in a compartment was no mean struggle; it required super-human effort of pushing, squeezing and wading our way through the crushing humanity of desperate passengers on the platform and in the train cars. People started pushing their luggage through the window. Four of us (our parents and two brothers) managed to squeeze in one railway compartment. Our elder brother had to climb to the roof of the train and perch himself there among hundreds of others for the journey to Delhi. I do not know how well prepared he was to take on the cold winds of early December morning on the exposed top of a running train. When the train stopped at Jagadhari station and a few refugees got off the train, our brother was able to join us in the compartment.



Our train from Ambala arrived at the old Delhi Junction around eleven P.M. We asked our tonga driver to take us to Kothi No.19, Barakhamba Road near Connaught Place. On the way, my younger brother and I made the tonga stop right in the intersection of Nayya Bazaar and Khari Bowli so that we could get down to look at the tracks for the trams that used to run in those days in old Delhi. In Bhera when some people talked about trams in Delhi streets we had difficulty comprehending how the tram tracks did not interfere with the cross-traffic of other types of vehicles on those roads. We used to think of the trams tracks to be raised tracks above the ground. Little did we know until this day of revelation that the tram rails were embedded in the ground like in Bhera’s only grade crossing of the station road and the shunting yard rails.



It was past midnight when we showed up at 19 Barakhamba Road. The kothi belonged to Smt. Sat Bharawan, who was like a sister (moonh-boli behn) to our father. We woke her up so late in the night. My father shared his plight with her, and she graciously let us in and found a room with two beds for our family. My father had all along thought we could find temporary shelter at her place. She was originally from his place of birth, Haranpur in district Jehlum. She and our father had grown up as children in Haranpur. Our father had visited her and her husband a couple of times in Delhi over the years on his trips to Dayal Bagh, Agra. Our father was a follower of the Radhaswami sect, a religious-cultural reform movement founded in Dayal Bagh in 1861. His moonh-boli sister and her husband were staunch Arya Samajists. Delhi’s largest Arya Samaj Mandir near Lajpat Rai Market in Chandni Chowk is named Dewan Hall after her late husband’s name, Dewan Chand. A school on the Arya Samaj Road in Karol Bagh is named after her, Sat Bharawan Higher Secondary School for Girls. My father’s faith in Smt. Sat Bharawan’s generosity was not misplaced. She let us stay at her place for over two months. There were four or five other refugee families who had also found shelter with her. One of them was the family of Ram Lal Mandaria whose young son, Bayya, was the sole victim of communal killing in Bhera.



When our younger sister with her son came to see us in Delhi, we learned what had happened to our sister and her in-laws in Mianwali. We learned that one night their house was attacked. Her father-in-law was shot dead by the Muslim assailants on the spot when he opened the door. Our sister, her mother-in-law and two married sister-in-laws were bayoneted by these assailants (who appeared to be members of some army detachment). They demanded and got all the jewelry the women had collected and kept in special waist-bands. The three-year old son of my sister, another three year old son of her younger sister-in-law, and two daughters (2 and 5 years old) of her senior sister-in-law were spared (not hurt) by the assailants on the grounds that “all children are innocent.� The younger sister-in-law died of her wounds (punctured stomach and bleeding) later that night. Our sister’s father-in-law, who was the only grownup male member in the house, had already been killed. A few days later, the mother-in-law (Smt. Subhadra Devi) died of her wounds in the Mianwali refugee camp.



My sister’s and her sister-in-law’s hands had been pierced while they vainly tried to ward off the bayonet charges. They also had bayonet wounds in their abdomens. The two surviving ladies, two three-year old boys (one’s mother had been killed) and two young girls were flown to Delhi in a plane arranged by Dewan Mohan Lall (see Note: 3), the husband of the deceased sister-in-law. He had rushed to Mianwali in a Dakota airplane with a rescue team, made available by the government of India, to bring back the entire family, but returned only with his son and his son’s Massi, Mammi, and three cousins (see Note 4).



This brings us to the end of our journey from Bhera to the Mandi Bahauddin Refugee Camp in Pakistan and finally to Attari, India and eventually to Delhi. This journey of survival was strewn with fears, apprehensions, dangers, hardships, heart breaks, and enormous challenges. We thank God and people of good sense that the Hindu and Sikh community of Bhera (including our family) was able to come out alive from a landscape that had turned murderous. The next phase in the journey of our lives, to be narrated in a future attempt, was one of unending struggles to rehabilitate ourselves. It took our family nearly two decades of hard times to regain a semblance of good life in India.



NOTES



Note 1: To comfort his daughter, the headmaster told her good humouredly, “Stop crying, my child. Have not I hit so many boys with my cane in the school�? Two sons of Lala Pindi Das Chopra live in Bhera Enclave and Pashchim Vihar in Delhi.



Note 2: It was in the Mandi Bahauddin camp that we first heard of this attack on the refugeee train from Pind Daddan Khan in which almost all men were killed and women and children abducted. Later in India, we learned that one of my cousins was abducted and never recovered in subsequent campaigns to rescue such women. The husband of a newly married friend of my younger sister from our mohalla was killed in the attack. The friend herself was in Bhera with her parents and escaped abduction but not widowhood.



Note 3: Dewan Mohan Lal, who hailed from Miani, was then the Chief of Public Relations and Liaison, Bennet Coleman & Co., the publishers of the Times of India and Illustrated Weekly of India. A very dynamic and resourceful person, he met Gandhi ji, Pt Nehru and Sardar Patel, among others, to persuade the Government of India to provide a chartered Dakota airplane with a Rescue Team for bringing back his wife, son, and in-laws from Mianwali to Delhi.



Note 4: Almost sixty years later in 2006, the 3-year old kid who lost his mother in Mianwali serves as the Director General of the Government of India’s Standing Conference of Public Enterprises, having previously served as the Chairman of the State Trading Corporation of India. The other boy (my sister’s son) is retired as Engineering Manager, Factory Design, Intel Corporation in California. One of the two girls became a high school librarian, and the other became a Hindi poet.

Re: # 126
Ananth 126,

The commonality that people have ever talked about are language and food. The language well, let me provide an extreme example. I have noticed that on chowk A$$ penetration is a very common usage by the north indians and the pakistanis. Gandhu and gand marna etc are hindi words and there are absolutely no equivalents in malayalam, kannada or in tamil. Well gandu is probabaly one commonality to work on and that should be the legacy of the muslim rule in the north.

Dost

Thanks for recognising the difference between the values embodied in the institutions and the values at the individual level. You talk of the commonality of the foods, and the notion that a paki would be "comfortable" in India.

The food preferences are simply related to taste, that cannot make a common bond, they are simply transient, I know of many westerners who cannot go by without some indian food.

Then one has to look at whether there is a move towards convergence of institutional values. There is so much of crime in pakistan, and no election parties talked about crime. The largest paki protests, at the all pakistan level in recent times was against some stupid cartoos in a swedish newspaper of less than 20,000 circulation. I do not recall any reports of paki agitations against price rises.

Then you look at the paki elites represented on chowk, and the articles by pakistanis, absolutely nothing on matters of substance, it is all about irrelevant conspiracy theories and inuendos. The straight jacket of islamic republic has denied any form of reasonable thinking to the pakis and YLH is a good example of that. How readily he is falls into teh trap of making a foll of hi9mself by declaring that Gandhi is the jihadi. The crucial factor is that the pakis have no absolutely no notion of weltanshaung, the mood of the times.

I see absolutely no hope of any raproachment, no hope what so ever that pakistan will not become a top jihadic country.
The elections are only the first step towards a military jihadi take over in less than a decade. The military has surrendered to the jihadis, there is no concept of law and order, every thing is negotiable around islamic values, the corner stone of the peace deal with the jihadis in waziristan.

The good part is that the Advanis and Bajpayes who had nostalgias of the past are gone, and a new generation will assess pakistan on the basis of reality and not in terms of a world of yesterdays.

In military terms, there is every indication that india is preparing for a strike against pakistan, wait for the forthcoming indian military exercise with more than 50 countries invited to witness.

The Long Journey (Part I): From Bhera to Mandi Bahauddin



Gian Sarup





This is the story of how the division of India into two nations came to be enacted at the local level in the small, ancient and peaceful town of Bhera in 1947. The author, then a 14-year old kid, and his family were witnesses as well as targets of the movements and events that steadily unfolded into an irreversible migration of the town’s Hindus and Sikhs to India, ending centuries old sojourn of their families in Bhera. This segment of The Long Journey covers the post-1946 stirrings for Pakistan in Punjab, the rapidly deteriorating conditions for Hindus and Sikhs in the Rawalpindi region and elsewhere in western Punjab, the growing concerns of the town’s Hindus and Sikhs for their own security and future in soon to be formed Pakistan, local Muslim leadership’s intervention to prevent Hindu blood- shed, the departure of the town’s Hindus and Sikhs by a special train, the attempted ambush of the train by a Muslim mob near Bhera and the attack’s neutralization by the train’s army escort under the command of a Muslim captain, and the delivery of Bhera’s Hindus and Sikhs to a refugee collection camp in Mandi Bahauddin in Pakistan for eventual transit to India.





Hindu-Muslim/Sikh Relations in Bhera before 1946.



Despite the emerging differences in the viewpoints of the town’s Muslims and Hindus/Sikhs with regard to the idea of Pakistan, the two communities continued to live and interact without any religious friction. In our memories of the pre-1946 period there is no entry for communal tensions and riots between the town’s communities. Like in most other towns of Punjab, places of worship of each religion functioned without any interference from the followers of other faiths in Bhera. ChhaintaaN wali Masjid was adjacent to the Jhuggi wala Mandir; both shared a wall. The Mullah gave his Azaan five times a day from the mosque, and the Hindu temple had its daily prayer accompanied by the tolling of its bells every evening. The Sikh priest in the nearby Gurudwara recited Gurbani around five o’clock every morning, and this recital from the top of the Gurudawara’s clock tower (the highest point in the town) was heard far enough to wake up people of all faiths at that early hour in the surrounding neighborhoods. The public prayers of different faiths did not grate on anyone’s religious sensibilities, and this kind of long standing accommodation was not due to the absence of blaring loudspeakers in those days.



Relative to Hindus and Sikhs, Muslims were in a majority of more than 2 to I in Bhera. Hindus and Sikhs felt secure and safe. As a Hindu child growing up in the town, I never felt we were a minority, much less a vulnerable minority. A clear majority status in the town and western Punjab had given the Muslim community a lot of self-assuredness. When Punjabi Muslims felt aggrieved it was mostly because of what they thought was the way their coreligionists were denied their fair share of political power in the rest of India. In Punjab, Muslim numerical strength translated into proportionate political and administrative power under the system of separate electorates and religion-based quotas for jobs. Most of the time, the town’s Tehsildaars (the government administrators and judges), Thanedaars (Chiefs of Police), and Chairman of the town’s Municipal Committee in Bhera were Muslims. No Hindu or Sikh ever felt unhappy or aggrieved with these appointed and elected officials. Until 1946, Bhera’s Muslim’s self-assurance as a majority community was also reflected in their relative lack of overt political activity. Whereas the local branch of the Indian National Congress, largely comprised of Hindu and Sikh membership, held frequent public meetings and rallies against the British rule, the local Muslim League was relaxed and less demonstrative in its opposition to the British rule. Of course, the Muslim League was rapidly gaining strength and popularity among Muslims at the cost of Unionist party around this time. However, getting rid of religious minorities was not a part of Muslim League’s creed for Pakistan.



Communal Stirrings in Bhera



Alas this era of peace and tranquility was not to last for ever; Bhera was not an isolated island. The news of killings of Hindus on Mr. Jinnah’s Direct Action Day in Calcutta under the rule of Shaheed Suhrawardy in August 1946 was worrisome, but there was not any serious apprehension among us at that time about our own future and security as Hindus and Sikhs in Punjab. Calcutta was far too distant a place to impact us seriously. We felt secure under the Unionist government of Khizar Hayat in Punjab. The Unionist party and government were comprised of Muslim, Hindu, and Sikh landlords and Jats. However, when we heard a few months later about the massacres of Sikhs and Hindus closer home in the northwestern parts of Punjab, the situation acquired a threatening posture for us. With continuing reports of attacks on our religious communities in the rural areas of the Rawalpindi Division, we Hindus and Sikhs in Bhera began having tangible concerns for our own security.



Our father was totally apolitical. We did not get any newspaper at home, nor did we have a radio to keep us abreast of the news about the country’s inexorable move toward its partition. I had started reading the headlines in Urdu dailies like Milap and Pratap in our school’s library when I was in the sixth or seventh grade (around 1944). Both the newspapers had Hindu owners and editors. Mahasha Krishan and his son, Narinder, managed and edited the daily Pratap, and Mahasha Khush-hal Chand and his son, Ranbir, ran the daily Milap. Both the dailies were staunchly Arya Samajist in their outlook; they also subscribed to the political ideology of Indian National Congress. They promoted the Congress’ view that religion should not be the basis of nationhood, and they argued that there was no need to split India into different countries based on religious counts. These two news papers were clearly opposed to the Muslim League’s demand for Pakistan and carried on combative debates on this issue with the Muslim newspapers like Zamindar and Nawai Waqt.



One day I wandered into the town’s public library located in the Christian quarters behind the old Police Station and the Court Complex. That is where I came across the two Muslim newspapers, Zamindar and Nawai-Waqat, for the first time in my life. I was taken aback by their presentation of the news and their portrayals of Gandhi and Nehru as Hindu leaders who were promoting Hindu interests at the cost Muslims. Politically naïve, I could not believe that any body could miss the “truth� by such a wide margin. As a young boy of about 13-14 years of age, I had not yet learned the hard lesson of life that different groups can see the same event or person very differently based on their allegiances. The views of these newspapers were discordant, even antithetical, to the ones I had acquired as a young lad. Reading the two sets of Hindu and Muslim newspapers around 1945/46, one could hardly find any meeting ground between the Hindu and Muslim positions. The Muslim newspapers described Indian National Congress as a Hindu organization and its secular/nationalist platform a façade designed to hoodwink the Muslims. The Hindu newspapers painted the Muslim League as bent on wrecking the country’s oneness.



The Congress party did its utmost to woo Muslims to its fold, but kept losing the battle. The Indian Muslim League had staked its claim as the sole representative and protector of Muslim interests, a claim Indian National Congress could not concede without being reduced to the status of a party for Hindus alone. The local branch of the Congress party in Bhera was headed in the 1940’s by Chaanan Shah, a Munshi (a clerk and a book keeper) for Lala Ishar Das mehndian wale. Chaanan Shah, a tall, lanky man who was always dressed in white khaddar, had several high school students from the Arya high school become active workers of the town’s Congress party. My neighbor and classmate, Inder Raj Kapoor, was one of these student workers. Their main task was to shout slogans at the Congress party’s rallies and public meetings held in the rectangular ground of Ganjwali Mandi. When three officers (Shah Nawaz, Sehgal, and Dhillon - - a Muslim, a Hindu, and a Sikh) of the Indian National Army (set up by Subhash Chandra Bose in Burma to fight the British) were put on their court-martial trial for treason in Delhi’s Red Fort, Inder Raj Kapoor assumed the command of the sloganeering squad. Inder instructed us that while we shouted the zindabad (Long Live: Dhillon/Sehgal/Shah Nawaz) slogans for each of the three officers on trial for treason, we should shout first and most often such slogans for Shah Nawaz. This was part of Inder’s earnest, though naïve, effort to convince Bhera’s Muslims that the Congress party was more than equally concerned about the fate of Col. Shah Nawaz as a Muslim freedom fighter. Alas, there were to be no winning of Muslim hearts from such tactics.



The political views of Muslims and Hindus/Sikhs had grown so much apart by this time that any political initiative coming from one community to bridge the gap was hardly trusted by the other. On one occasion I heard a discussion between some older Hindu boys from our mohalla and the three Muslim brothers who had a furniture-making carpentry shop opposite Jhugiwala Mandir. The Hindu boys tried hard, but could not convince these brothers about the religious impartiality of Gandhi and Nehru. However, the three brothers did concede that Subhash Chandra Bose was the only Hindu leader who was a true nationalist.



The Gathering Storm



One day in early 1947, I watched from the balcony of the Sikh Gurudawara the mock jannazaa (funeral) of Khizar Hayat, then the Chief Minister of Punjab. An effigy wrapped in a coffin cloth was being carried out by four people on a roughly hewn board and a few other people made the funeral procession. What the procession lacked in size, it made up by the ugliness of its behavior. It was not that they were shouting, “Hai, Hai,� and “Khizar Hayat Murdabad,� a couple of these protestors also kept beating the “dead body� with old, torn shoes. This gesture was the worst insult they could heap on their political opponent from their religion. As a child, I was perplexed at this mean spectacle of hatred. How could these Muslims think so ill of a fellow Muslim? I learned later that Khizar Hayat’s Unionist Party was a coalition of Muslim, Sikh, and Hindu landowners of Punjab. Most Hindus and Sikhs were satisfied with his administration and policies. But, Khizir Hayat had earned the ire of the Muslim community, because he did not readily go along with Mr. Jinnah’s call for the partition of country into India and Pakistan. Punjab was a critical component in Jinnah’s vision of Pakistan, and to allow such a non-cooperative Muslim leader to retain political power in Punjab was an affront to Muslim League. The clearly pro-Muslim League results of the elections and the wide-spread agitation against Khizar Hayat led him to resign in March of 1947. The British Governor took over the administration of the shaky province. Communal riots became rampant in Lahore by this time, especially after Master Tara Singh’s public tearing of a Muslim League’s banner. Reports of riots in the cities of Multan and Amritsar and of massacres of Hindus and Sikhs in the countryside of the Jhelum district (bordering our Sargodha district’s northwest) started coming by words of mouth. Bhera was still untouched by violence, though.



One evening in early June, I saw a small crowd, mostly Hindus, gathered to listen to a radio broadcast outside a house in the street not far from Chitti puli da darwaza. The Hindu owner had placed his radio on the front terrace of his house for the benefit of those who did not have a radio at their homes. I learned that Lord Mountbatten, Pandit Nehru, Mr. Jinnah, and Sardar Baldev Singh were scheduled to make statements on the independence and partition of India and formation of Pakistan. The radio reception was very poor, and I could not understand much of what these leaders had spoken. I gathered from the comments made by the grownup members of the audience that all the four speakers had indicated their consent to the country’s partition into India and Pakistan. The prospects of the country’s partition did not please the audience, but they appeared resigned to it. Bhera was so deep inside the Muslim majority part of Punjab that it was bound to go to Pakistan. Nothing they wished could avert it.



As the Central Government’s decision and the political parties’ seal of consent for the country’s partition into India and Pakistan became known, Hindus and Sikhs in western Punjab started feeling a tangible concern for their future and safety. In less than three months after this declaration, the country’s partition had to be completed into a Non-Muslim majority India and a Muslim-majority Pakistan. There was an unwise haste to finish this enormous task in 90 days in the midst of a rapidly deteriorating situation. Howsoever dismayed, the Hindus and Sikhs did not consider it discreet in Bhera to voice any opposition against the decision on the formation of Pakistan and country’s partition. Somewhat reassuring was the absence of victory parades and loud jubilations by the local Muslims to celebrate the news of the soon to be formed Pakistan. Now that the demand for Pakistan had been officially conceded both by the government as well as the Indian National Congress and Akali Dal, we thought it should pacify the worked up feelings of Muslims in Punjab. Bhera was still at peace with itself, but the situation in the rest of the province remained grim, mean, and brutal.



Exploring Options: To Stay put or to Pack up



Around mid-June, a general meeting of the residents of our Hindu mohalla was held to look at their future in Pakistan and to consider the two options that were open to them: To stay put or to pack up and leave? The heads of the DhoanaN da mohalla families and their grown-up male members pondered the issue of their future and safety in the soon to be the Muslim state of Pakistan. All the mohalla elders spoke and variously expressed the ancestral kinship of their families with the land of Bhera and how emotionally wrenching was the mere thought of leaving the town for unknown places. They were born and had lived in Bhera all their lives. Most elders thought that the communal violence in Punjab and other provinces would subside and come under control with time. They recalled how over the centuries Punjab had seen many a king and kingdom change without any major harm coming to the ruled public (reyyat). Some pointed out that, when Muslims of Punjab joined the movement to carve out a separate country with a Muslim majority in Northwest India, ethnic cleansing of Hindus and Sikhs was not a part of their agenda. They also talked about the economic and social costs of abandoning the family’s established businesses, homes, and lands for an uncertain life in distant and unknown places. Overall, it was congenial for them to hope that no harm would come to them in Pakistan.



Lala Daya Ram Kapur and Lala Anant Ram Kapur, the elders of the mohalla’s two anchor families, indicated their decision to stay. They were optimistic that the deteriorating communal situation would be brought under control by the law and order authorities once the transition to Pakistan was completed. Most dramatic was the sanguine outlook of Ram Lall Dhawan, who was so resolute on staying in Bhera that he announced a major renovation project for his house in the mohalla (he, indeed, had already started some construction work in his house)!



On the other hand, we heard a darkly pessimistic forecast from another resident, Chaman Lal, an Arzi-navis (a petition-writer) in the local court. He warned against the comfort of hoping for the best and its attendant decision in favor of staying put. He recommended packing up and leaving the town while it was still safe to escape with one’s family to cities well east of Lahore. The safety of our families should come before any concerns on hardships and sacrifices, he argued. Based on what he had been able to gather from his Muslim clients, he felt sure that Muslims in the countryside were planning to kill and loot the Hindus and Sikhs of Bhera at the opportune time. He also cautioned that the times had changed (is bar, waqt badal gayai hein), and history might not repeat itself to save us from harm. Pakistan was being ushered in not through a conquest by a king and his armies, but by the determined will of the majority community that had been persuaded to view Hindus and Sikhs as their enemies. Moreover, how Muslims would treat us here in Pakistan depended on how Hindus and Sikhs in the rest of India would behave toward Muslims. In contrast to Ram Lal Dhawan’s plans to renovate his house in the mohalla, Chaman Lal announced his plan to leave Bhera with his family in a week or so.



Few took Chaman Lal’s warning seriously and his words kindly. They disputed his sources of information as less than reliable. When he tried to defend his information, he was literally drowned in noisy interruptions. They instead talked about the predicament of the business men and land owners. It took their forefathers many a generation to have a successful business in place, and how could one throw it all away. One could sense the high-status elders of the mohalla turning hostile toward Chaman Lal, a man of modest means and standing in the mohalla’s social hierarchy, who was making them look less than fully concerned about the safety of their families. No one would let Chaman Lal speak any further, even when he kept pleading, “ik meri arz vi te sunno (Please listen to my one submission, too).� Apparently supporting Chaman Lal but in reality ridiculing him, two grownup boys repeatedly “asked� the elders to listen to his one “submission� (tusi inhan di ik arz te sunno). The gathering split into twos and threes, and one elder confided that it was easier for Chaman Lal to move to another town because he had portable skills to earn his livelihood; any way he had precious little to lose in Bhera. After all, what he needed to earn his livelihood was nothing more than a set of pens, ink pots, a cushion to sit on, and a chowki-desk for writing petitions outside any court building!



Our father, Hori Lall, earned a modest livelihood from his saraafa business in which he charged fees for attesting to the relative purity of gold and silver by testing them on his touchstones, and also made more money or incurred sizeable losses by buying and selling these precious metals. He had a lot of competition from three other sarafs in the Guru Bazaar: Lala Sita Ram Khanna (his shop also had the town’s sole dharma-kanta), Chuni Lal Chopra, and PiraN-Ditta Mal (see Note 3). In 1947, our father was already 58 years of age, handicapped by rheumatic knees, and lacking enough capital to start his business all over again in a different part of the country to provide for his family. His situation inclined him to believe that Hindus and Sikhs would be spared and allowed to live and work in Pakistan. In his way of thinking, the tensions had to subside and we all needed to wait it out.



Chaman Lal’s and his family (his wife, Shanti Devi; two daughters, Bimla and Krishna; and a young son, Hari Om) packed up and left for Patiala in the next few days. Theirs was the only family from our mohalla to migrate on its own accord well before August 15, 1947. Some mohalla residents made fun of his voluntary exile, and were wishful in predicting how he would one day regret his decision to uproot his family. By the end of August 1947 when the entire Hindu and Sikh population of Bhera felt threatened, trapped and desperate, everybody in our mohalla envied Chaman Lal for his foresightedness. Ram Lal Dhawan’s fate was the saddest; not only he had to stop the renovation work, he also had to get ready for leaving the house he had vowed never to abandon.



A Grim Incident



One day early August, we watched an incident in the mohalla with a lot of alarm. Carried on a cot, a man was brought to a house that belonged to Ram Tikaya Malhotra. Mr. Malhotra had retired from the North West Railways as a Platier (an official who inspects railway tracks while seated on a trolley pushed by two men running on the rails). He was a widower who had returned with his two daughters recently to Bhera to spend his retirement in his house in the mohalla. One of his daughters had appeared as a private candidate for the Punjab University’s Matriculation examination held in May/June. Because of the disturbed conditions in the province, the examination results did not become available in Bhera. Mr. Malhotra persuaded a young man, Tilakaa (Tilak Raj) to take a train to Lahore to obtain the exam results for his daughter. It was a dangerous assignment; we had started hearing of attacks on Hindu and Sikh passengers in trains.



Tilakaa and Prakash Habshi (see note 1) were two unmarried men in their thirties who were known for their pluck and ability to put up a tough fight. They lived in a chabbara over a shop next to the great banyan tree in the Jhugi Bazaar. It was Tilakaa’s reputation as daredevil, fearless guy that brought the risky assignment and made him accept it, i.e., he could not refuse the task without losing his face. When his train from Bhera stopped at Malakwal Junction for passengers to catch other trains, a couple of murderous men with knives and daggers barged in the compartments and dragged the Hindu and Sikh passengers out for killing. Seeing the odds piled up against him, Tilakaa told the attackers that he was a Muslim. They ordered him to take off his pyjama to check if had been circumcised or not. On finding him not circumcised and thus a Hindu, they stabbed him several times all over his body and left him for dead in the train. A few hours later when the same train returned to Bhera, half-dead Tilakaa was rescued and rushed to the town’s hospital. When he was brought to Mr. Ram Titakaya Malhotra’s house, he was wrapped up in bandages. Mr. Malhotra’s family took care of him, and provided the needed medical treatment. I do not recall any Hindu from that day onwards traveled out of Bhera by train. Any way a week or two later, the train service to Bhera from Malakwal was suspended. Buses from Bhera to Bhalwal continued to ply, but only Muslims passengers felt safe to travel by them.



Preparing for the Worst



The news of riots and killings from all over Punjab continued to pour in more macabre tones. The feeling of being trapped and resulting insecurity crystallized fast into a serious concern. All families in the mohalla were now expected to have some means to resist attacks on their lives if they were to materialize. The most common tools of defense were packets of powdered red pepper for women and limbs of dismantled charpais (four-legged, strung cots) for men. We had also piled up bricks, stones, and glass bottles to throw at those who would invade our neighborhood. No one in our mohalla owned a licensed (or unlicensed) firearm. The Gurkha guard of the Punjab National Bank in the street just outside our mohalla carried a gun on duty to protect the bank assets.



One day we witnessed a surprising scene. A police party was taking a Hindu, Mangal Sain, in handcuffs to the police station. Walking just behind Mangal Sain was a policeman carrying a water bucket with four or five sealed canisters immersed in it. According to the policeman, the canisters were homemade bombs and had been seized from Mangal Sain’s shop. Mangal Sain was a tinker by trade. He used to live in our mohalla with his widowed mother, Rajo. When his old mother died a couple of years earlier, he was still unmarried and moved out of our mohalla to stay somewhere else in the town. So far as we knew, he was a loner. We do not know what happened to Mangal Sain after his arrest. Whether and when he was tried, imprisoned, and released? Did he ever make it to India?



After Mangal Sain’s arrest, there was a rumor that the local police would search Hindu and Sikh houses to recover hidden weapons. For many years our family had owned a black baton with a concealed 6-inch blade. When the baton was pulled at its ends, its two inconspicuously fitted parts would split into a short handle with a double-edged blade and a second part as the sheath for the blade. This could be construed as our most “dangerous� weapon. Of course, it did not stand a chance to protect us against daggers, swords, and spears. We were nevertheless apprehensive at the possibility of getting caught with this baton in our house in the event of a door-to-door search by the police. Late one evening when it got dark, we pushed the baton down the roof-level mouth of the gutter-pipe. It slid down the pipe and, as expected, got stuck at the pipe’s foot-long elbow near the first floor. The rumored search never materialized, but we breathed free after the baton had lodged into an unsuspected recess of the gutter pipe!



Ushering in Pakistan



On August 14, a fairly large crowd of local Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, and Christians gathered outside the Court/Police Station buildings to cheer and salute the official unfurling of the Pakistan’s national flag. The independence from the British was a muted theme in the larger celebration of the birth of Pakistan. The Hindu and Sikh shop-keepers hoisted and prominently displayed Pakistani flags outside their shops.



After a few days of apparent quiet and peace, one very early morning (around the unusual hour of 3:00 a.m.) we were awakened by the continuous beat of drums (dhols) from a southwesterly direction. The untimely and steady beating of the drums was sensed by us as a kind of call for the Muslim faithful to arise and gather for a planned mission. Mobilized by the countryside Mullahs to avenge the killings of Muslims in the Hindu and Sikh majority areas of India, a mob was growing in size near one of the city’s gates and was set to start a bloody reprisal against the kafirs of Bhera.



The drum beat shook up all Hindus and Sikhs, throwing them into a state of foreboding. I could hear our parents’ worried talk as to what was likely to happen. I was seized by fear, my stomach churned, and I had to rush to the latrine. We could see families gathered on the roofs of their houses, worried and paralyzed. Other than bolting shut the mohalla’s main gate, there was no discernable mobilization on the part of the mohalla residents to organize even a modicum of defense against what appeared to be an imminent attack. We felt paralyzed.



Then the drums suddenly stopped their beat. We learned later that Sheikh Fazal Haq Piracha, the long serving Chairman of the town’s Municipal Committee and a member of the Central Legislative Assembly in New Delhi since 1934, confronted these brigands that morning. At one point, he took off his turban and put it at the feet of the mob leader(s) and begged them to turn back to their homes and leave the Hindus and Sikhs of Bhera alone. He told them that Hindus and Sikhs had lived in Bhera for centuries in peace with Muslims and they owed them at least a safe passage for the sake of Bhera’s past and fair name. His prominent stature in the community and his heart-felt appeal persuaded the mobs and their leaders to disperse. When most people got caught up in the vortex of religious strife and brutal reprisals of 1947, some righteous, God-fearing persons held their heads well above the swirling waters of hatred and revenge. One such person was the native son of Bhera, Sheikh Fazal Haq Piracha, our savior. He was the one who single-handedly dissuaded the Muslim mobs of tenant farmers and villagers from acting on their plans to kill and plunder the town’s Hindus and Sikhs. We owe our survival as a community to this righteous man.



The immediate danger to our lives seemed to have been averted, but everyone came to realize that Bhera could not remain for long an oasis of safety and peace in the midst of wide spread hatreds in the country at large. It had belatedly become clear to us that there was no future for Hindus and Sikhs in Bhera, for that matter anywhere in Pakistan. We felt trapped. There was no safe way out. The trains were being stopped to pull out Hindus and Sikhs of the compartments for killing on the platforms, perhaps to avoid spilling their blood on the clothes of “fellow� Muslim passengers inside the train. Sikhs were readily identified by their turbans, facial hair, and the Kada (bangle) on their arms. Hindus could pass for Muslims but for their names and religious icons (if tattooed on their bodies) and their failure to recite the Islamic kalma. When there were no outward signs of a suspected person being a Hindu, the absence of circumcision in men betrayed their Hindu identity.



Safe Departures for Some with Connections.



Some Hindu and Sikh families had relatives in the army and/or had resourceful relatives in India. These relatives sent army trucks or civilian trucks with army escorts to bring their families and friends safely to places like Amritsar in India. One day I saw a truck with a military escort parked outside a house on the periphery of SahniaN da mohalla. Four to five families and their belongings had been squeezed into the truck, including the family of the town’s hospital’s compounder (pharmacist). The compounder’s identical-twin sons were a year junior to me in the school, and I considered them very fortunate to have the kind of connections they had to secure their escape. Jagdish, an army officer, showed up with two military trucks. Besides evacuating his parents (his father was the town-crier and a part-time dough-kneader for Jolly’s Bakery) and siblings, he chose several other families to join his evacuation caravan. There were over one hundred men, women and children packed into the two trucks; among this batch of evacuees was the town’s prominent family of Lala Jiwan Mal Sahni.



The Last Straw: Reaching a Point of no Return



Hardly had our sense of relief over the stopped attack on Hindus and Sikhs lasted a week when a riot erupted near the ChopriaN da Mandi. A couple of Hindus were attacked around a shop, and one of them, a young man by the nickname of Bayya (son of Ram Lal Mandariya), was killed by a group of attackers. The panic spread rapidly and led to a fast and total shut down of every Hindu shop in the bazaars. Lal Kuppi’s kiryana shop in Guru Bazaar was set on fire, and the smoke from the smoldering fire could be seen for several hours from the neighboring mohallas (see Note 2). Hindus and Sikhs stopped doing whatever they were doing and rushed from wherever they were to find safety in their neighborhoods, and locked themselves behind the closed doors of their homes and shut the mohalla gate. I heard the loud banging of the house doors and window shutters as they were being shut forcefully. I thought we were having an earthquake. “They have started killing Hindus,� shouted someone. We became worried about our father and my elder brother, Prem Sarup, who were at our father’s saraafa shop. Hafiz, the rang-rez (the dyer) whose shop was opposite to our father’s in the Jhuggi bazaar, rushed to advise my father and brother to leave right away for our house for safety. He told them that riots had started in another part of the town. My father (who was on crutches due to arthritis in his knees at the time) and brother came “running� as fast as they could, and were let in behind the shut doors of our DhoanaN da mohalla.



The women had already been directed to go and hide in the dark recesses of a big, old house. They were asked to carry their pouches of red-chili powder to throw in the eyes of attackers. No body had thought of the possibility of the safe house (with one entrance and no separate exit for escape) for women and children being set on fire. Our house was adjacent to the mohalla’s main gate, and if an attack were to occur, we probably would have been among the first houses to bear the burnt of attack.



Later that day, sitting on a cot with his three sons (9, 14, and 19 years old) in another “safe� house in the mohalla, our father looked shaken to the core. With tears in his eyes, he told us that he had failed us as our father for not having the foresight to escape with our family well before the catastrophe struck. He would never forgive himself if our mother and we, his children, came to any harm.



We breathed easy when the riot did not spread to cause any damage beyond the death toll of one Hindu life and the single case of arson. The killing of one person was either an isolated incident in itself or something that was not allowed to spread. We are not aware if there was any intervention by people of good will likes Sheikh Fazal Haq or by the police to stop further violence. Any way, there was no more loss of life and destruction of property that day. Yet, the sheer terror (daih-shat) caused by this incident, coming at the heels of the averted attack by the Muslim mobs a few days earlier, was overwhelming in its impact on our psyches. It was a kind of last straw. Out of fear, the Hindu and Sikh shops, businesses, and schools remained shuttered from that day onwards to the very last day of our stay in Bhera. The prospects of a safe and secure future for Hindus and Sikhs as a community in Pakistan had collapsed irreparably for us. Even the most sympathetic local Muslims had by now come to view an exile for us to India as inevitable and in our best interests. No one asked us any more to stay back.



Worries over safety and survival had now become the foremost concern for the Hindus and Sikhs in the town. All of us were physically cooped up in our mohallas. We were also cut off from all news. We did not know what was happening to Hindus and Sikhs in other towns. The newspapers from Lahore had stopped arriving. The local generation of electricity had been severely curtailed to the extent that it could power only the street lights at nights. It was most likely due to the shortage and disrupted supply of diesel for running the generators. The smallest generator was run in the evenings and at nights; the result was that electric power was no longer available for domestic use at any hour. Only eight out of the 27 houses in the mohalla had electric connections to begin with. When the electricity was turned off for all homes, the few radios these families had became inoperable. The silence of the radios was disturbing. The lack of news about what was going on in the rest of Pakistan and in India fed our worst fears.



One late evening, Inder Malhotra, an electrician and our next door neighbor, used a ladder to reach the light-bracket of the mohalla’s sole electric pole, and was able to plug in one end of a long wire to its bulb-holder. The wire brought electric power to a radio that was placed on a table below the light. With the help of a wire-antenna, Inder was able to tune in the radio to catch the All India Radio Delhi station. The station was broadcasting live or recorded evening prayer of Gandhi ji. In his broken Hindi rendered a little more unintelligible because of the poor reception and static, Gandhi ji was recounting the dream he had the previous night in which he saw a Muslim bibi (lady) in a Delhi refugee camp without a blanket and shivering in cold. That is what we could make out of his narrative. It did not please us; how could Gandhi ji talk of the suffering of a Muslim bibi in Delhi while being so “utterly silent� on the plight of Hindus and Sikhs in Pakistan! We did not know then that he had been to Noakhli in East Pakistan around this time to bring peace there for Hindus after his success in stopping the killings of Muslims in Calcutta by going on a fast-unto-death there in mid-August (see Note 4).



Few Hindus now dared step far from their mohallas. Hindu women stopped going to the Jethu di khui area for buying their daily vegetables from the Muslim women vendors who used to bring baskets full of fresh produce from their farms each morning. Now one of these vendors started bringing her basket of vegetables to the mohalla for us to buy. Muslim cowherds continued to take the cows and buffalos of the mohalla families out for grazing. Bassu, a Muslim employee of Lala Anant Ram Kapur continued to prepare the feed for the family’s buffalo and milk the animal for the family. Our milk-woman, BegmaN, who lived just outside the mohalla next to the Sikh Gurudawara, continued to bring us buffalo milk measured in Gadwis. Balla Nai, a Muslim barber, came every second day to the mohalla for the elders to get their shaves. Most blessedly, jamedaars (Mussalies, the Muslim “category� of sweepers and latrine-cleaners) did not stop attending to their cleaning chores for Hindus and Sikhs. Shalli, who used to clean our dry latrine, did not kindly miss a day of her work for us in this critical period.



Our isolation in the mohalla from the external world made us more susceptible than usual to rumors of an impending attack. The mohalla elders approved a plan for nightly vigils by the mohalla’s youths (those who were older than 18 and unmarried). Different groups of 3 to 4 young men took their turns to patrol the street outside of the mohalla at night. Like professional chowkidars (watchmen), they used to walk with laathis (long bamboo staffs) in their hands, periodically shouting Jaagte-Raho (Keep awake). They were advised to rush back into the mohalla if they spotted any danger, instead of fighting it out. Although as many as four families and one commercial bank were housed in the street outside the gated mohalla, the main defense against any invaders had to be mounted primarily from the houses inside the mohalla. Small heaps of bricks and glass bottles were piled on the roof tops. These “missiles� were to be the weapons for our first line of resistance against the attackers. For any hand-to-hand combat, the limbs of cots and kitchen knives were the only available tools for men.



Waiting for the Evacuation Train: Overnight Camping at the Railway station



The “official� word was spread that a special train was expected to arrive any day to evacuate us. We started looking forward to a special train with army escorts to evacuate us safely to India. The first thing we used to do in those days was to go to the roofs of our houses in the morning and look in the direction of railway station for any sign of billowing smoke of a train’s engine (steam locomotive). We were advised to be prepared to leave on short notice. Accordingly we had started packing up our essential belongings and preparing the food we needed to carry with us. There was going to be only limited space in the train for the entire Hindu and Sikh population of Bhera and, naturally, very little room left even for their barely essential belongings. Our mother had to make the hard decisions on what few household things were worth taking with us and what needed to be left behind or thrown away. Besides the modest amount of family jewelry, the most valuable things in terms of sentiments were the three phulkaris she had saved for decades to give as welcome gifts to her prospective daughter-in-laws on the weddings days of her three sons. Also dear to her heart were a few very beautiful khais (bed sheets) she had got woven by the local Muslim weavers from the countless spools of cotton thread she had spun on her charkha (spin–wheel) over the years. She also had to think of a few other items; beddings, cooking utensils, essential clothing for everyone, etc. She also thought of cooking only those food items that won’t spoil readily, such as puris (fried breads), prathas, and khameeri roties. Besides a few vegetable preparations, she thought of carrying a small jar of mixed pickles that do not go stale.



Like other Hindu and Sikh business men, our father had the task of collecting from those who owed him money and of paying back his debts to other business men. The goal was to raise enough cash on hand to sustain the family for as long as one could in unknown settings. Our elder brother took on the task of going through stashes of family papers to gather any school documents, reports of births, photographs, and letters from the family members in one place to take along with us. One of the pictures he found was a group-photograph in sepia of our family before my younger brother and I were born (circa 1928-29). In the picture, our elder brother was a baby in our mother’s lap, our two unmarried sisters and another brother (who had died of typhoid in Rawalpindi where he was attending D.A.V. College for his F.Sc. in 1942) were in the standing row. Very precious was the presence of our paternal grandmother in the picture. Obviously the town’s only photographer (he had his shop/studio next to the Arya Samaj Mandir outside the Ganj wala darwaza) had been brought to the house for this event; he took the photograph of the family gathered on the flat roof of our house. Someone had forgotten to remove the rather ugly four-legged ghada-stand (ghadas are earthen pitchers used to cool water by seeped evaporation in summer months) in the background for this picture.



There were a hundred other things, small and big, that tugged at you but had to be left behind in the house. Our mother still harbored a certain hope that she would be able to return with her family to our home in Bhera. She did not want to throw anything away. She did not mind giving away a few things to the people who needed them. My mother’s Pfaff sewing machine was very dear to her heart. She had sewn most of her children’s clothing herself on this machine, and she did not want to part with it. When BegmaN, our milk-woman, approached our mother to sell this machine to her, she hesitated to sell it. BegmaN persuaded her with the argument that the sewing machine, if sold to her, would at least be in good hands and used properly, instead of gathering dust in the abandoned house for God knows how long. Touched by BegmaN’s words, our mother let her have it for a few rupees. The Pfaff sewing machine was the only article we sold in Bhera. Except for the few things we managed to carry with us, most other household things were left behind.



Finally the day of saying good-bye to Bhera came with the announcement that the long awaited special train would arrive later that day to take the Hindus and Sikhs away to India. What made the departure really tragic was our own looking forward to this day when we would escape from the town where our ancestors had lived as a community for centuries long before the arrival of Muslims in India. Now the time seemed to have arrived when we would leave it for ever. Most sadly, the opportunity to go far away from Bhera had turned into a kind of deliverance!



All families in the mohalla made hurried, last minute preparations for the departure and their march to the railway station. Our mother served us prathas with hot milk, and packed up the food she had prepared a day or two earlier for our journey to somewhere in India. Just before noon, a Baloch army man came to our mohalla to ask the families to hurry up and rush to the station. Lala Daya Ram Kapur, the old patriarch of the mohalla’s richest land-owning and business family, did not like this on-the-spot pressure to make it quick. He could not help asking the soldier what was the great rush when he was leaving all his properties and business behind in Pakistan. This did not please the soldier who told Lala Daya Ram to carry his home and lands “on his head� to India!



Everybody had to walk and carry their belongings on their person to the local Tonga stand outside the Ganj wala darwaza from where they could hire a tonga to ride and carry their belongings to the railway station. I was carrying on my head a large, bronze metal box containing all the food our mother had cooked for our trip and a bag full of sundry items. When I reached the town’s main chowk (intersection) I saw a sight that still haunts me. Sugreev, who had a kiryana shop opposite the Gurudawara entrance in the main bazaar, was desperately trying to restrain his old mother from breaking loose from him. It appeared that the old lady, her hair and clothes disheveled, had dementia and was hard to control. Her son had to take her along with his family to wherever the train was going to deliver them. I watched the struggle between the two for a few minutes, and then had to move on to join my family members who had moved ahead. Sugreev’s predicament was indeed heart breaking; I do not know the outcome of his efforts to bring his mother with him. He could not have left his mother behind on her own as their entire community was on the way to India. In the 1950s, I got to read Saadat Hasan Manto’s story, Toba Tek Singh, in Urdu and found the fate of Sugreev’s mother no less poignant than the plight of Bishen Singh in Manto’s story.



Carrying boxes, beddings, hand bags, and trunks (metal suit cases), men, women, and children walked in a slow, staggered procession in the direction of Bhera’s tonga stand. The town did not have more than two dozen tongas to begin with. The demand for these vehicles was especially great from those who had physical handicaps (e.g., our father was on crutches) or those who were carrying a lot of luggage with them. The tonga drivers made frequent trips to the station to meet the demand, and most people had to wait for their turn.



By the time our family reached the railway station by tonga, the huge waiting room with benches for the third-class passengers was overflowing with people. We had to lay down our goods under a tree on the road and sat on our trunks with rolled beddings for cushions. Many people were still coming in. The late comers settled with their belongings on the half-kaccha road with crushed stones embedded in its dirt surface. Once in a while, a policeman would arrive looking for a Hindu businessman (mostly individual bankers who had made loans against pawned stuff) and take him to the town’s police station in a tonga. It turned out that there was nothing sinister about these summonses. The Muslim clients of these Hindu businessmen and bankers had raised enough cash to retrieve the stuff they had pawned earlier with them. So far as we know, there were no unfair pressures on the Hindu businessmen to return the pawned materials without receiving payment of the loans they had extended. The few Hindus who were hauled to the police-station came back to the railway station to rejoin their folk.



Bhera’s railway station was the terminus for the Malakwal-Bhera railway line. The station had a long platform with two sets of railway tracks, two water-pitcher stands (one for Muslims and the other for Hindus), a shunting yard, a godown, and a circular turn-table for the train engines to reverse their direction for the return journey to Malakwal Junction. We noticed the presence of armed soldiers around the railway station and saw then posted as guards at the periphery. Besides the Baloch soldiers, there was also a batch of Sikh soldiers in this army contingent made available to provide armed escort for the train. The Captain of this unit was a middle-aged, tall, handsome Muslim gentleman. He was taking rounds of the extended site of our gathering.



It was already getting late in the day yet there were no signs of the train at the platform. We saw the Captain in frequent consultation with his colleagues. Then as it was about to get dark, the people thought of having the meals they had brought with them in the remaining light. The single water hand pump outside the station was crowded as each family came to fetch water for the evening meal. Everyone in the crowd was patient for its turn. The waiting line moved fast, because the families did not have big pots to fill. Around this time we were informed that the train’s arrival had been cancelled for the day. Each family made a bed or two on the ground. Except for the fortunate few who had found space in the waiting room, others had to make their beds in the open on the rough road to spend the night. I still remember how hard it was to lie down on a bare (no padding) sheet spread over the stone-studded pavement (see Note 5). Although it felt safe with the military men guarding our “camp,� we slept fitfully. The town’s fairground next to the railway station was turned into a toilet facility for the night.



In the morning, we were asked to go back to our homes in the town (tongas were available for the return trip), and advised to wait for another train in a day or two for our evacuation. We were also given to understand that no tongas would be available for our next trip to the station and that we were to bring only those goods with us that could be carried on our persons from our homes to the railway station. The new limit on how much luggage could be brought was prompted by the fact that the evacuees had managed to bring far more baggage with them than could have been stored in the railway compartments without displacing the passengers. The heaps of luggage could stand in the way of evacuating all those who had to leave.



Although we were not excited at going back to our homes, we felt relieved to find the locks on our houses intact on our return. No house in our mohalla was broken into during our twenty-four hours of absence. We felt embarrassed, because we had feared a kind of free-for-all looting of the goods and belongings that we had left behind. There were also no signs of any looting of the town’s Hindu and Sikh shops during our short absence from the scene.



Final Farewell to Bhera



A day or two later, we were ordered to return to the railway station for catching the special train that had already arrived. This time there were no tongas to take us to the station, so we set out early from our house this time. Whether they were sick or crippled, young children or old folks, everyone had to walk all the way from their homes to the railway station. The walking distance from the farthest point in the town to the station was three to four miles long, and it took quite some time to cover it. Most people had to make several stops on the way to catch their breath as they were not used to walking such a distance in a single stretch with their carry-on belongings. Our father was on the crutches. Our elder brother carried a small metal trunk on his head. I carried a gathhri (a wrapped bundle) of clothes for our daily wear, while my younger brother was assigned the task of carrying our prepared food for the journey. Our mother’s heels were sore and hurting so badly that she could hardly walk, especially with our hold-all bedding on her head. She had to stop several times on the way and we kept company with her. When she reached the station, she almost collapsed on the floor of the waiting room. She thought she was going to die there, and told our father to take good care of us, their three sons. I could not bear to see this scene, and kept praying to God to spare our mother’s life.



Someone suggested that we should contact a Muslim doctor (a Unaani hakeem) who lived in one of the nearby houses in a row. My elder brother went to get him to have a look at our mother. The doctor took my brother back to his house and sent with him a packet of powder medicine to be taken by our mother with a glass of milk. But we did not have milk on us to give it to our mother. Our neighbor in the waiting room was none other than a neighbor from our mohalla, Shrimati ShielaN Vanti Kapur (see Note 6). She had brought milk with her in a container for her baby daughter. Watching our mother’s condition, she offered a glass of milk for our mother to take with the medicine. After she had taken the medicine, our mother felt much better and in an hour or so of rest managed to board the train on her own feet.



My elder brother thinks that there were no more than ten bogies (cars) in this special train. As many as 5,000 to 6,000 Hindus and Sikhs (along with the baggage they had carried on their person to the station) had to be squeezed in those bogies. Bringing with us only those belongings that could be carried on our heads without breaking our necks made it possible for everybody to get evacuated in a single army-escorted train of ten bogies.



Before our special train left Bhera’s railway station one day in the third week of September, 1947, a batch of Muslim National Guards (the Muslim counterpart to the Hindu RSS of those days) showed up in their green uniforms and lined up on the platform in a “Guard-of-Honor� formation to bid us farewell. We watched them from the windows of our railway compartment, not knowing what to make of this entirely unexpected move. We were at that time suffering from the oppressive heat in our railway compartments. We were packed like herrings in the train; several families (over 100 persons) stuffed in each small compartment. The crowding made the inside of the train feel like an oven, even when all the windows were kept wide open. At one point, one Muslim national guard, Baalu (for Iqbal), who used to work as a sweeper for a Kapur family in our mohalla, approached the head of this family and advised that we better close the windows. It did not make any sense; he did not tell us why the windows need be closed. He kept pleading though. Before he went back to be with his fellow-guards, he made sure that we were going to shut all the windows. The gentleman returned after a while to ask why we had kept one window open. We told him that it would not shut. He suggested we better place a trunk (suit case) or even a rolled-bedding against the window to cover it. We sensed something was remiss, something ominous to befall us. It was only when the train suddenly stopped just a few miles from the station and we heard rapid firing by the escort soldiers that the full scope of the peril we were in dawned on us. It became clear why this caring person was so much concerned about the open windows. He knew of the planned attack on the train, but could not divulge it.



The train gave its whistle, its steam engine puffed and the train started to roll away from the railway station, passing Bhera’s first signal-arm (chotta haath) and then the second signal-arm (bada haath). The lowered signal-arms indicated all clear to the train, but there was a dreadful obstruction waiting for us. Hardly had the train moved three or four miles when it stopped due to an obstruction on he tracks near Hazurpur. A large mob of marauders was waiting there to ambush us. The Captain, our second savior after Sheikh Fazal Haq, ordered his men to open fire in order to deter the mob. The firing by his men succeeded in stopping the attack and saving the lives of Bhera’s Hindu/Sikh men, women, and children. Some of the attackers must have been injured and a few perhaps even got killed. The Muslim and Sikh soldiers removed the tree trunk from the railway tracks that the attackers had placed there to halt the train, and the train resumed its journey to Malakwal.



The men waiting to ambush our train were mostly from Bhera’s surrounding villages (including a few from the town itself), who could hardly wait to kill the Hindu and Sikh men, and carry away their women and cash and jewelry as maal-e-ghanimat. Once turned back from the gates of Bhera by the pleas of Sheikh Fazal Haq Piracha, most of them showed up “dutifully� a few weeks later to waylay our special evacuation train. We do not know if they were there for their mission when the first train did not show up a day or two earlier. However on this occasion, before our train was stopped a few miles from Bhera, we could see from the window chinks a few of these folks running by the side of our train. They had axes and spears in their hands, and those who did not have a donkey or a camel were carrying cots on their heads to bring back the booty. These laggards were trying hard to reach the site of planned ambush in time so as not to miss on their share of the spoils. When the train was stopped at the barricade that had been set up for the purpose, the main body of raiders came rushing from behind the embankments of a canal to attack us. The Captain promptly ordered his armed men to open fire, making the mobs retreat and find shelter behind the embankments. But for the effective protection provided by the armed escort commanded by the Captain, Bhera’s Hindus and Sikhs would have been a captive target for butchery in the stalled train (see Note 7).



This time the train did not stop until it reached Malakwal Junction. Perhaps for security reasons, our train was parked in the open before reaching one of the railway platforms with sheds. It was easier for the soldiers to guard and defend the train in the open; it avoided sneak attacks coming from built-up structures. The Sikh soldiers were assigned the guard duty; they stood every 20 feet or soon either side of the train. It was a very hot day in September, and the soldiers stood in the sun for hours until the train was cleared to leave. We had no idea our train was bound for Mandi Bahauddin until we reached its railway station and were asked to get off. The town had been selected to serve as a collection-point camp for Hindu and Sikh refugees from Jhelum and Sargodha districts.



At Mandi Bahauddin Railway Station, I saw quite a few Hindu elders (one from our mohalla) take off their turbans and lay them at the Captain’s feet as a gesture of their deep gratitude for saving them, their womenfolk and children. He was uneasy at this gesture and just stepped back from the turbans, telling the Hindus that what he did to save them and their families was a matter of duty for him. He surely was a true Muslim, a gentleman officer, and a karmayogi for whom a duty performed was its own reward. We do not know this officer’s name or the place he was from, but his face will ever remain hallowed in our memories. He was a stranger, but our savior. May God bless his soul.

NOTES





Note 1: Behind his back, Prakash was referred to as Habshi (African) because his father was a Bherochi Hindu and mother an African woman. He was a good looking, tall, dark, muscular, curly haired man known for his toughness and courage.



Note 2. The town did not have any fire-fighting equipment other than one wheeled open-tank with a manual pumping mechanism. The water from the tank had to be pumped by four persons (two o each side) for jetting it with a hose on the fire. This vehicle had rusted over the years as it lay abandoned in the front yard of the town’s municipal committee’s building. A preferred and more common method of fighting fires was to form a bucket brigade in which men formed a chain to move buckets filled from the water drawn from nearby wells to the fire site. Understandably on this day, no Hindu or Sikh would endanger his life to form a chain of citizen fire-fighters to douse the fire in Lal Kuppi’s shop.



Note 3. PiraN Ditta (Given by Pirs) was a Hindu, but this name was common among Hindus and Muslims alike in western Punjab until the early twentieth century. However, there was also a separate Hindu variant of this name, GuraN Ditta. For the Muslim names of Allah Ditta and Allah Ditti, Hindus had corresponding names of Ram Ditta and Ram Ditti. Some Hindu men were named Ram Rakha (Protected by Ram) and women, Ram Rakhi. The Muslim counterparts for these names were Allah Rakha and Allah Rakhi. Allah Jawaya and Ram Jawaya were the other pair of names from the same tradition; however a Hindu name like Ram Tikaya does not appear to have a matching name among Muslims.



Note 4. In their book, Freedom at Midnight, Larry Collins and Dominique LaPierre describe Suhrawardy’s rush to meet Gandhi just before his planned departure for Noakhli and requested him to first help save Calcutta’s Muslims. Gandhi made Suhrawardy accept a few conditions before he started on his long fast in Calcutta and delayed his departure for Noakhli (1975, pp.225-226)



Note 5. The road between the tonga-stand and the railway station was prepared by having a steam-roller go over the spread of crushed rocks and pebbles on the road’s dugout bed; no layer of asphalt was ever laid over the road’s stone-studded pavement which by 1947 had turned terribly rough and uneven.



Note 6. Mrs. ShielaN Vanti Kapur was a daughter-in-law of Lala Daya Ram Kapur of our mohalla and the wife of Mr. Harbans Lal Kapur, a leading advocate in the town. One of their sons, Narinder K. Kapur, a Seventh grader in the Arya Highh School in 1947, retired as a Judge of the Punjab/Haryana High Court in Chandigarh.

.

Note 7. The planned attack on Hindus and Sikhs of Bhera in their mohallas and homes, if it had not been averted, would have been less costly in lost lives than this attack, if not foiled, on a trainload of passengers. In the former case, many of the intended targets could have escaped in several mohallas. In some, they could have inflicted some damage to the attackers in gated neighborhoods. In contrast, the attack on the train, if it had not been stopped, would have led to a total massacre of the towns’ Hindus and Sikhs who were sitting ducks with nowhere to escape and had no tools to put up even a token resistance.





____________________________________________________________________________ ___________________________________

dost-mittar #136
"
PS: I am surprised by your posts, it is quite unlike you to use personal pain to make a point."

On the contrary, I now think personal pain is the only way to get Indians and Pakistanis to see outside their feudalist Stockholm syndrome-afflicted points of view that endemic jihadi violence is an excusable and forgivable 'tactic' used by Musharraf to get what he wants. It is apparent from your and many others(including Americans') uncompromising approval of Musharraf that even personal pain does not suffice.

giani240#145:

"Thirdly, this big brother would rather have the Indians focus more on new bully arriving on the scene - china. Since the big brother cannot handle this new bully by himself. So he prevents the distractions by managing the leash, while pushing the indians to focus more on the strategic ie the new big bully."

Regardless of what the big brother wants, I think that the Indias are too smart to fall for this trap; they want to have friendly relations and even more booming trade with China and have no desire to do America's dirty work vis-a-vis China. At the same time, they do have their own regional ambitions and the US and Indian interests do coincide to some extent. I think that India's stance with Pakistan has not changed under the US pressure (except for the withdrawal of forces from the border during 2020); all Indian govts. have favoured normalisation of relationships with Pakistan without changing the status-quo in Kashmir.

I think I have responded to your other points in other interacts.

Raw_Dust#144:

"... and this entity's head Musharraf/guy'X' is to be expected to respond in a self-destructive manner by signing on to a definitive pak/india resolution of the so-called "conflicts"?"

I may be wrong but I happen to believe that Musharraf is more committed to the state of Pakistan than to the army; in any case, if, as is frequently state, the Pakistani army is an army that has a state, its own interest are very much tied to the survival of the state. I believe that when Musharraf had to choose between Kashmir and Pakistan, he made the obvious choice.

DM: Did you support Indira Gandhi's "emergency" or came up with explanations for it?"

I would have supported the emergency if Indira Gandhi had imposed it at any other time than when she did; at that particular time, it was Indira who was facing an emergency.

I also think that she was defeated for the wrong reason; her emergency was quite popular in India until she (or rather her son, Sanjay) took forceful measures to control population growth.

arjun_5#142:

"What solution has been proposed?"

The most talked about solution has been a sort of condominium status; apparently there has been some sort of European precedent for it.

"I think India should STFU about the whole of kashmir, turn the LoC into the border and let Indians buy property in kashmir"

I consider myself to be not a peacenik but a realist; I do not believe in leaving festering wounds unattended. I would have supported the solution you propose (let Indians buy property in Kashmir and presumably able to settle there) if it was done 40-50 years ago; too much water has flown down Jhelum for India to reverse its policy in this regards without raising both domestic and international howls.

"and another thing...it's the kuldip nayyar types who told india in the late 90s that india couldn't progress if it didn't "compromise" on kashmir.."

Not me. I am on record saying that this was a false argument even before India started making economic stride; I had seen China make both economic progress and become militarily strong at the same time.

Kashmir and Siachen issue is definitely taken by Armed Forces (In India side). Regarding Kashmir, India has invested so much that, it is not possible to backtrack now. School, Engineering College, Medical College etc...If India backtracks, they needs to get some financial incentive from UN.

#168 Posted by tahmed32 on February 27, 2008 7:52:27 pm

6. Paki army launches an invasion of Indian Kashmir thinking it's nukes will prevent India from attacking it.
7. India says not so fast, counter attacks and kicks the paki army back.
8. pakis still not getting indian kashmir

Missile hits Pakistan's Waziristan, 8 suspects dead
Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:24pm EST

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By Hafiz Wazir

WANA, Pakistan (Reuters) - A missile struck a house in a Pakistani region known as a safe haven for al Qaeda militants early on Thursday, killing at least eight people, residents and intelligence officials said.

The attack took place near Kaloosha village in the South Waziristan tribal region on the Afghan border.

"The blast shook the entire area, about eight people were killed," Behlool Khan, a resident of the area, told Reuters.

A security official said he believed the missile was fired by U.S. forces, who are operating in neighboring Afghanistan.

U.S. forces have fired missiles at militants on the Pakistani side of the border several times in recent years, most recently in late January when one of Osama bin Laden's top lieutenants, Abu Laith al-Libi, was killed.

That missile was believed to have been fired by a U.S. pilotless drone.

However, neither U.S. nor Pakistani authorities officially confirm U.S. missile attacks on Pakistani territory, which would be an infringement of Pakistani sovereignty.

Pakistan, an important U.S. ally despite widespread public opposition to the U.S.-led campaign against al Qaeda and the Taliban, says foreign troops would never be allowed to operate on its territory.

Many al Qaeda members, including Uzbeks and Arabs, and Taliban militants took refuge in North and South Waziristan, as well as in other areas on the Pakistani side of the border after U.S.-led forces ousted the Taliban in Afghanistan in 2001.

From sanctuaries in the lawless border belt, the Taliban have orchestrated their insurgency against the Afghan government and the U.S. and NATO forces supporting it.

Increasingly, so-called Pakistani Taliban have been mounting attacks in Pakistani towns and cities, many aimed at security forces and other government targets.

(Additional reporting by Alamgir Bitani; Writing by Zeeshan Haider; Editing by Robert Birsel and Sanjeev Miglani)

Maharana#141:

"But as some have already pointed out that this rapproachment was perhaps more due to forced circumstances than Pervez Musharraf."

I call it a "what if" question in my article because I am not sure if a civilian govt. would have been able to take unpopular decisions as done by Musharraf. He did encounter stiff opposition from several quarters in Pakistan when he did do an about-turn on India policy; even moderate columnists like Ayaz Amir criticised him for abandoning Pakistan's traditional stance on Kashmir; a popular leader's ability to take unpopular decisions is limited; Indian leaders have more than once negotiated a settlement of Siachen with their Pakistani counterparts but had to go back because of the checks and balances that a democracy imposes upon an Indian leader.

"In general on the policy of rapproachment with Pakistan I think the cautious line taken by the GOI in my opinion is reasonable"

I agree. I used the words "cautious optimism".

anil: I shall read the rest of your post later and may respond further.

anil #163 you cover so many topics and my brain is so tired.. but let me try to respond to at least a part of your post :-(

on nukes: you disagree with my contention that nukes brought 180 degree change in indian govt attitude towards pakistan. However, you ignore the simple sequence of events i have been presenting below and getting only disagreements from indian posters but without pointing out why it is unreasonable to reach the above conclusion. Let me try again:

1. India explodes 5 bombs.
2. Advani (no. 2 man in india) makes extra-belligerent remarks towards Pakistan, saying the Kashmir situation was now totally changed.
3. Pakistan government agonises for a few days - Clinton pushing NS over the phone to take the so-called "High Road" by not responding to India, Pakistan generals pushing NS to give a "fitting response". Finally, NS relents, and Pakistan provides the "fitting response".
4. Indian government suddenly stops making belligerent statements.
5. A few months later, the Indian PM himself visits Pakistan Memorial in Lahore and declares Pakistan is here to stay.(Lahore Rickshawallah Bulleh Shah wonders why the Indian PM thinks anyone in Pakistan was waiting for him to say this).

Now please tell me if there is anything incorrect in this sequence of events, and if I am being unreasonable in reaching the conclusion that BJP learnt the virtues of peace when it discovered it could not threaten Pakistan anymore.

HP # 105

``Pakistan's survival depends on not having the army as the uniting force. I hope you agree with this!''

I entirely agree. This baboon must be put back into its cage. There are some good chances of doing that now.

NHK

Re: # 164

the statement should read "completely agree"

From the daily times...doesn't seem like pakiland's bleed india strategy is going so well...turning out to be a death by a thousand self-inflicted wounds for pakiland..

of course, we all are now expected the accept that pakiland was never interested in kashmir..just like the fox wasn't really after the grapes(which were sour anyway).

Second Editorial: Zardari’s message to India

The PPP co-chairman Mr Asif Ali Zardari
has repeated his party’s commitment to the improvement of relations with India to bring about an era of peace between the two countries. Speaking to an Indian daily Monday he said his party had a special relationship with the Congress party whose leaders were personally friendly to the late Ms Benazir Bhutto.

The current misfortunes of Pakistan are a consequence of bad policies adopted to counter India. The false search for “strategic depth� in Afghanistan was India-driven just as the current Afghan policy is driven by fear of India’s comeback into Afghanistan after 1996 when it was driven out by the Taliban. Equally, Pakistan’s refusal to bring about a change in its India policy is an internationally isolating act. That is why Islamabad must begin free-trading with India after ratifying the treaty that President Musharraf has blocked. The “option� of jihad in Kashmir must be irrevocably abandoned in favour of normalisation which is what the people of Pakistan want. And Pakistan must stop defying the WTO and agree to reciprocate the grant of Most Favoured Nation status by India to Pakistan. Far from being made a conditionality of bilateral normalisation, Kashmir should be the object of free-trade cooperation between the two occupied zones. President Musharraf erred on normalisation by dithering; the PPP must move forward after taking the new parliament along. *

Re: # 161
Re: # 160
Re: # 158 etc

Tahmed, you do have a point let globalizaton force the issue. If there is one place where India and Pakistan compete, it is at the WTO. There it seems the views are completely congruent.

Eklavya and HP,

Alas, in the end, it will be the political people who will end up resolving the issue.

Why not practice what you preach. Lets ignore the zees and the arjuns etc when the discussion invariably turns to contenious issues on chowk, and lets focus instead on how the discussions and contacts can move forward in a postive way first on chowk and then on the ground.

Tahmed sahib:

You often say that India reversed its policies toward Pakistan, once it exploded the nuclear bomb, because it became worried that Pakistan will use nuclear device against India. I disagree, and let me give my reasons below.

The only nuclear attacks todate have been surprise attacks. Both sides and their Uncle Sam knew that each other had nuclear bombs. This knowledge served as the deterrent. Open explosion by Pakistan can not deter, when all scenario of first attack confirm that India will survice to hit back, and the world would come and takecare of the parties to such adventurism. Bush was not joking when he said that nuclear Iran is third world war.

Successful blasts certainly raised the passion and united Pakistanis against their nemesis. This unity, instead of being channelized productively, was destroyed by attacking Supreme Court and rest of the sequel that followed.

New reality is that all those who cheered for independence of Kosovo, prove my point that Ummah can be manipulated by the other side too.

To understand this, please look at the map of Islamic nations, all now have something going at their borders or inside their borders. Turkey and East European countries included in the north; Pakistan, Afghanistan (and couple of ...tans of Central Asia) in the east; Darfur in the south, and west is the Atlantic Ocean to contain. These conflicts will play out as war of attrition.

Iraq gives a clear platform for this turmoil to go on inside, if McCain is to be believed for 100 years. Palestinian and Israel problem does not show any urgency in resolving either. There seems to be a complete encirclement with violence (=fire), and there is fire in the middle too. One more interesting observation is that oil in the center is encircled by despotic leaders, Iran excluded. Shite Sadr keeps extending ceasefire in Iraq. When these fires go on, and locals fight among themselves, they are less likely to deal with the despotic leaders encircling oil assets.

OBL wanted to get rid of Saudis, instead look where he attacked and where he is hiding, and who is killing who. Clearly this Ummah is getting manipulated by the both sides.

Recent elections in Pakistan have shown that Pakistan is a different place than most other Islamic countries. Grass root democracy is alive in Pakistan. Why is it so, I would not know.

Even there the fire has started. Neither Musharraff nor the Taliban can sing that “I didn’t start the fire.� Next government will have to deal with it, and therefore, would be tied down.

Also, neither you nor HP Mian can figure out reality of India Inside.

Pakistanis can - just as people like me can observe Pakistani scene and mix my biases - from the outside,and can throw in personal biases. I as many other outsiders, including a couple of Pakistani friends I talked, did not see this surge of grass root democracy in Pakistan. This is a danger Pakistanis run also when they observe India.

I wrote my biased view in an earlier post on this essay about India Pakistan.

It is a generational change. Pakistanis are genuinely fed up of Army rule. You may know more than I do, if Pakistanis can now be united with a war cry against India, even when according to all in Pakistan, there is no visible progress in solving this issue.

For the future, by the time Pakistan is over with the cycle it is in, I am certain the middle class there will be vibrant, economy can be vibrant, and new reality will emerge there too. Prolonging sixty years of past is no longer acceptable to Pakistani Awam.

This new reality will be more Pakistan centric, and will not be "not-India" based identity, and in my view, this Pakistani will do business anywhere and compete anywhere with anyone.

If you need a proof, look at Shoaib Akhtar, and others. I only hope IPL does not fail.

This younger generation has very little time for old and failed romantic ideas or theories. You see a proof, right here at Chowk; just read interactions between Dost Sahib and Arjun, or Dost Sahib and Sadna. She is politer than Arjun, but equally firm.

The middle class Indians are now busy elsewhere. This group is growing faster than the Indian GDP, and hence indicates that there is upward mobility into this group.

At this rate, this group will soon be larger than the entire population of Pakistan. This is ground reality; discard it at your own peril.

Other realities include that no single party rules India. It is also safer to assume that this is an irreversible phenomenon, and therefore, no single party will come in power for a very long time.

The coalition with younger generation among its cadre, can never reach a consensus on Pakistan as the enemy to fight. Generals there don't act alone on their tetosterones.

Indian Armed forces and bureaucracy no longer attracts the best and the brightest. If democracy is allowed to settle down, the scene there will be similar. Current government could not get all members to agree on nuclear deal with the U.S. Even though all armed forces staff must have wanted the deal to go through.

Problems of Indian armed forces are multiplied by the middle class's new economic reality and dream. Disinterest in armed force officer recruitment is all time high. Middle class provides these recruits. In fact, India’s chief of army staff was asking Bollywood to make more patriotic movies, so that armed forces can be romantically viewed by talent to volunteer.

Going back to Pakistan, pleae look at the election results. This tally is quite like breakdown of regional parties in India. PML-N and PPP may not like to be called regional Punjabi and Sindhi parties, so be it the result speaks for itself.

Therefore, I submit that India-Pakistan can no longer fight each other. This has nothing to do with testosteronics of nuclear or non-nuclear armed forces.

Generational change; new ground reality, as I mentioned above, in the Islamic countries; and shifting priorities require a new paradigm for India Pakistani relations.

Indian Kashmir cannot be central to this paradigm. Shoaib Akhtars, Adnan Samis, Romairs (yes our Romair), and a new crop of entrepreneurs (and not lawyers of old time Jinnah, Gandhi and Nehru) will define this paradigm from Pakistan side. After all it was a group of entreprenuers who rushed to Delhi, to plead a case against breakout of hostilities when India piled up 1-million armed forces at the border.

These Akhtars, Samis, Romairs & Co. will deal with people who will include persistent and tough Sadnas, Arjuns and red-necks like Laddus too. Ganesh mutants, mother burners, pedophile etc. cannot be the currency in this deal.

I confident this will happen in our lifetimes.

I doubt even Col Kool Aid aka DM will buy this BS about how the pakis don't really want kashmir...

LOL, you know very well HP sahib, for a politically-minded person like me (just like you) that would seem a very very risky proposition. But I wouldn't mind, even if I (or people like me) keep urging caution.

So long as those contacts are not stopped (with or without caution) you (we) would get what you suggest.

Is that fair?

Kaal,
"Our history is a mess, I would love to know how we can resolve its "contradictions" without either side feeling cheated!"

I knew some one would ask this question. Do I have the answer? Yes, I think I do but would you agree with that? Your reply could go either way yes or no. That is the reason countries have negotiations and diplomats resolving issues.
The baggage we carry is enormous and 60 years are not long in history.

Imo, the best way is at this time to let the history take its course. Couple of generations later, things would cool down. In the meantime just let the people to people contact flourish. Non political people, just curious tourists, historians and scholars who would worry less about the political issues than the curiosity issue. I wanna see Taj, you wanna see Ketas or perhaps Kaghan and that should be good enough!

The more political people try to resolve the issues, the less chances we have in resolving the issues!

# 158 agreed.

Eklavya #155 i think the elephant in the room we need to consider when discussing india-pakistan relations is globalization. until we do that, we would merely be living in a mid-20th century world that is long gone even today.

giani: it is good that indians dont want pakistan "back". joining india has never been an issue in Pakistan - including in the current elections - in Pakistan. so you need to move beyond this issue.

#153 HP: Time has shown that a nuclear standoff is a strategic, not tactical, situation.

Thus, it prevented the US and Soviets from going to full-scale war in the four decades after WWII. And we are well on our way to four decades without a full-scale war between India and Pakistan.

While no doubt historical animosities and resentments are there, but so are historical ties and cultural aspects and (now) even political ideologies (the latest elections in Pakistan show people voting overwhelmingly for a political structure a la western-style democracies rather than the bs that mush was giving out in Davos e.g.

HP/Giani ji, agreed that we have to come to terms with history and accept each other. But how? What can the two countries do, except let the other believe what they believe (as tahmed suggests, but that contradicts what HP has posited)?

Our history is a mess, I would love to know how we can resolve its "contradictions" without either side feeling cheated!

Really, all ideas should be explored.

Re: # 146

HP,

You are correct. I am one of those "a usual extremist from the wrong side of the border ". As a matter of fact, I am pretty proud of it too.

But you and tahmed are wrong about the bomb. The bombs have been there for while. It only became public in 1998. The idea to make it all public was good one. It is debatable as to who benefited.

I wonder what Salim would say about

"Pakistan exists in areas where the current Pakistanis have always lived and they exercised their right of self determination in 1947!"

However, you do have one misconception. I do not think that other than a negligble minority, Indians want Pakistan or Pakistanis back. The Indians have enough problems of their own.

Belonging to the Jammu region, my individual position on Kashmir is that it should go to Pakistan and the Kashmiris should enjoy the life as the rest of Pakistanis.

However, of late, this desire on their part seems to have dimmed.

Eklavya, if you look to the future without digesting the history, as someone wise once said that you are bound to repeat it.

Cheers

Giani

Kaal, Tahmed,
That is where you two make mistakes. The nuke issue is a balance of power issue so it is more a tactical thing than something to augment better relations.

Nations develop relations when they come to terms with each others existences in every which way. Territorial claims whether real or imaginary, always hinder progress in any relations.

As I said the basic issue between India and Pakistan is Indians inability to come to grips with Pakistan now. They had the opportunity in 1947 to deal with the issue and accepted the deal that was offered to them. The honorable thing now is to live with the deal and then perhaps find ways to work towards better relations!

#150 yes prophet-foetus. (yawn).

#148 Eklavya: I dont have a problem studying history on chowk - but we need to do that as friends trying to understand the picture. Too many posters end up merely sticking to their respective government "party lines". Example:

You mention in your post that "With Pakistan acquiring the bomb, fears of being run over by India should have subsided."
I wrote, e.g., in #147 below on the same issue "I present to you the BJP government that within an year of the demonstration of Pakistani nuclear capability did a 180 degree volte face from bullying to talking peace (with AVP making what must have seemed to him to be a major statement when he said that Pakistan was here to stay before the Pakistan memorial). "

There is no doubt truth to what you say, but there is also truth to what I say (unless you see something incorrect in the basis i provide above). We can still be proud of our identities as Indians and Pakistanis while acknowledging that we may may be looking at a partial (as in this case) picture only.

yes prophetboy..kashmir isn't the core issue..

which is why you'll never find musharraf, shaukat aziz or any other paki government official say it is..

right...

#146 Posted by HP on February 27, 2008 3:24:31 pm

nice try...but the answer is still NO...you can't have indian kashmir...

get over it..

HP, tahmedi, that's why we shouldn't spend so much time discussing 'history,' and focus as much as possible, if possible, on the future. Think of it this way. Rightly or wrongly, India will ALWAYS have the kind of territorial claim that HP highlighted, which understandably and quite rightly, upsets him in a 'national sense.'

Even so, Tahmedji is right. With Pakistan acquiring the bomb, fears of being run over by India should have subsided.

HP: Agreed that too many Indians see Pakistan as being "their" territory and thus harbor resentments. Certainly obvious on chowk. But I think at the policy level things are different - the nuclear capability has forced Indian leadership to shelve thoughts of overrunning Pakistan. And as proof, I present to you the BJP government that within an year of the demonstration of Pakistani nuclear capability did a 180 degree volte face from bullying to talking peace (with AVP making what must have seemed to him to be a major statement when he said that Pakistan was here to stay before the Pakistan memorial). Whenever I have brought up this bit of reality, the reactions of our indian cousins on chowk have varied from disbelief (in case of the more respected gentlemen) to severe mental anguish.. :-)

Giani sounds like a usual extremist from the wrong side of the border but the gist of the whole issue as I understand it from his post is that Pak-India relations carry so much baggage that it is hard to even weigh them properly, what to talk of rapprochement.

The Indians have falsely assumed that Kashmir is the core issue and often Pakistan officials, especially the military analysts and negotiators encourage this approach to hoodwink the Pakistani as well as the Indian politicians.

This Kashmir bogey has been kept up afloat for so many years that often the naive political analysts spend their whole existence in proving Indian pov or the Pakistani pov wrong or right.

The real issue and which the Indians attempt to always ignore/avoid is the territorial claims that India has over Pakistan. Which some Pakistani commentators bring up for discussion but they are shot down by not only their own government but are ignored by the Indian government too.

Until that issue is resolved the Indian-Pak relations cannot go beyond some feel good measures.

ABV made a half hearted attempt to deal with that issue in 1999 and then again Advani made another attempt to deal with that in his typical round about way. Both were roundly criticized and punished for making those gestures. ABV by the Pak army in Kargil and Advani by the Indian media.

Until Indians finally come to grips with the Pakistan’s existence, the Pak-India relations would never proceed in a smooth manner. Indians in the last 60 years have failed to assure the Pakistanis that India has no claim over any part of Pakistan in any manner, cultural, social and geographical.

Every time some progress is made in relations, even some well-meaning Indians start talking about the similarities between the people or how meaningless the partition was. The minute this talk starts from the Indian side, things began to cool up quickly.

We can witness this behavior on this site too. Most of the Pakistan haters are such not because Pakistan interferes in Kashmir. They hate Pakistan because Pakistan is in a territory which was formerly called India! It is the partition syndrome which drives these nutcases crazier every day!

I am not going to go any further on this as I have no intention to derail this simplistic article and even more simplistic discussion that is taking place here. I wrote this only to endorse what Giani said. Though I doubt, he was clear in his head as to what he is writing. It would take couple of more Indian generations to reconcile with the reality that Pakistan does not sit on some Indian territory.

Pakistan exists in areas where the current Pakistanis have always lived and they exercised their right of self determination in 1947!

Dost Mittar Sahib,

I took your advice to tahmed32 and read your article and posts multiple times.

I think your article is more a reflection of what you would like to see as opposed to what is reality. That is, it is an idealism disconnected from reality.

Just take the posts for this article. It shatters genisis of your article to smittereens.

If you think more interactions could lead to us hugging hamiddumdum or tahmed32 or vice versa, then at least the posts would have indicate some desire for it. In fact, the posts validate that TNT was wise, Jinnah screwed up by not taking the rest of his kin with him, etc, etc.

Secondly, the factual aspect of Mush being a good boy and wanting to kiss and make up, I think when you have a Big brother sitting on your doorstep, feeding you and fattening your wallet, anything he wants - you will do.

Thirdly, this big brother would rather have the Indians focus more on new bully arriving on the scene - china. Since the big brother cannot handle this new bully by himself. So he prevents the distractions by managing the leash, while pushing the indians to focus more on the strategic ie the new big bully.

I hope you get my drift. Indians and pakistanis whether rightly or wrongly shall not co mingle in a friendly manner in the foreseeable future. Maybe for another 50 to 100 generations. There are too many grievious wrongs in the recent past for any friendship other than superficial to happen. SO this idea of more interactions is a good thing, well, I always believed in distance lending more enchanment to the view.

The only concession i am willing to make is in their own way both sides are right.

with lots of respect and admiration

giani

"I think that these conditions have never existed in Pakistan since mid-fifties in the previous century and one cannot blame Musharraf for destroying institutions which were not there to start with."


Wonderful. So, there is an entity whose survival depends on:
1 - keeping the stranglehold on 'a' people by brute force,
2 - superimposing a militarist posture on 'a' society
3 - keeping the conflict with india low/high intensity going

... and this entity's head Musharraf/guy'X' is to be expected to respond in a self-destructive manner by signing on to a definitive pak/india resolution of the so-called "conflicts"?

DM: Did you support Indira Gandhi's "emergency" or came up with explanations for it?

Re: # 139 Dost

Yes, but you can blame him for destroying what little there was and for not cultivating any civil institutions. He did remove an elected government after all. Far better for the Pakistani voter to vote them out than through a coup d'etat. Improved ties with India will not come through the whims of one man, but through an organic process starting at the grassroots.

#138 Posted by dost_mittar on February 27, 2008 8:01:11 am



I do not have a solution; that is not to say that solutions have not been proposed.


What solution has been proposed?


But any resolution would require some movement from both sides.


yes..I think India should STFU about the whole of kashmir, turn the LoC into the border and let Indians buy property in kashmir...that's the best the pakis can get..whether they like it or not has no bearing..it's their ability , or the lack thereof, to affect the situation on the ground that matters..even that would take a resolution in the indian parliament


I think that you would agree that the Pakistani side has moved significantly from its former position - for whatever reason.


Two things.. It's the reason that's the most important..If the situation gets better than the current civil war, they'll move away from that. And movement away from a position of demanding the whole of indian kashmir to only demanding the valley isn't a concession...my toddler tries to pull that kind of shit..demands the whole jar of candy and then says he'll be fine with 2..doesn't work in either case..


So unless you have a solution, we're back to square one..india has something..pakis want it..pakis can't do anything about it..

and another thing...it's the kuldip nayyar types who told india in the late 90s that india couldn't progress if it didn't "compromise" on kashmir...turns out india has done quite well without giving up anything..to the point where it's in a completely different league now..

Dost Mittar,

I read your article but found time to respond only now. You have characterised the improvement in relations between the two nations and all the related events very well. But as some have already pointed out that this rapproachment was perhaps more due to forced circumstances than Pervez Musharraf. The official stance of GOI after emergency spoke very well about the reasonable response to their situation and our improvements with them. I think it went something like "It does not matter who rules pakistan as far as policies towards India is concerned. Whether army or civilian rules, they have consistently been the same."
I believe you are giving more credit to mushy than he deserves. Yes he is decisive, but that does not mean his decisions were always good. He was forced to bring about this rapproachment decisively only due to external circumstances. He is thorough bred army walla who puffs his chest up at the mere mention of India.
In general on the policy of rapproachment with Pakistan I think the cautious line taken by the GOI in my opinion is reasonable. There is a lot of bon homie between the two peoples today. But it is best not to forget times like Kargil also. If you would like, check the posts of some of our 'friends' who are ridiculing musharraf today. They were in absolute glee when musharraf came to power dislodging the same man who has been elected today. They were praising him to heavens for his brilliant move in kargil.
I think that if the new leadership of pakistan can manage to stop this jehadi buisness at their homes we can talk of rapproachment. Until then let them blow each other up. We have got enough problems of our own to take care of.
I don't believe I'm a hardliner, but do think of the Indian jawans who laid down their lives fighting the jehadi maniacs over the years. That too is a reailty and should be considered before any rapproachment.
Adios

Kamath#133:

Thanks.

Although I have not stayed in Pakistan for a long time, I was there for two weeks (more time than most Indians are allowed visa for) and have travelled there extensively and have perhaps seen more of that country than most Pakistani chowkies.

Pew_Research:

"I should have put additional qualifiers. Namely, 'it is highly unlikely that a freely elected parliament with no pressure from the Army/ISI on its foreign policy and relations with Indiain Pakistan will support a Kashmiri Jehad when it know that the consequence will be unremitting hostility with India. ':

I think that these conditions have never existed in Pakistan since mid-fifties in the previous century and one cannot blame Musharraf for destroying institutions which were not there to start with.

arjun_5:

I do not have a solution; that is not to say that solutions have not been proposed. But any resolution would require some movement from both sides. I think that you would agree that the Pakistani side has moved significantly from its former position - for whatever reason. The same is not true of the Indian side although Manmohan Singh's statement of making line of control irrelevant does seem to indicate some implicit willingness for adjustments.

jayp#various:

One needs to make a distinction between the values represented by the state and the values held by the individuals. I would completely agree with you that the values of the Indian state embodied in her constitution and laws are very different from those of the Pakistani state.

Does the same apply to the people of the two societies? Here, the answer is not that simple. First, the values of South Indians, in my opinion, are somewhat different from the values of the North. For example, the south seems to give more importance to women, there is no tradition of purdah or ghoonghat, no concept of "honour" associated with female sexuality and no female infanticide. However, there is a lot of commonality between the culture and values of the two Punjabs, especially in the rural society, although there has been steady divergence as Indian Punjabis seem to be getting more swept off their feet by western influences than their Pakistani counterparts. Still, there are enough similarities in terms of language, cuisine, tastes, etc. that a Pakistani visiting India would feel more at home here than perhaps anywhere else in the world, including islamic countries. The same is true of a North Indian visiting Pakistan.

sadna#115:

Your analogy is too tedious for my feeble mind. But let me try to respond anyway. I do hold the entire Pakistani establishment, including the civil society which had until recently actively or passively supported terrorist activity directed against India. And since Musharraf was presiding over that establishment during this period, he certainly has to bear responsibility for it.

PS: I am surprised by your posts, it is quite unlike you to use personal pain to make a point.

Ref Kamath #133

[Dosti Mittar:

I think you write sensible posts. It seems you are not addicted to religion to start with. I wonder if it is due to Canadian mindset, fresh snow and sleepy Canadian Parliamentary culture, rule of law and peace and finally an opprtunity to think without those fiery nationalist inspiration!

I hope you would travel to Pakistan and live there for few months and get a taste of what life there.]

He doesn't need to go to the Land of the Pure.

He can travel to Toronto and find women in burqas.

And Pakistanis tell us no woman even in Peshawar wears a burqa and expect me to believe it.

Ref anil #92

[Re: # 91

Sadna:

", would we ever have had an article from you saying 'Modi must be given credit for not having any riots after 2002'."


Don't you think you are making a case for electing gundaas?]

That is rich, coming from a brain-dead bhaiyya who voted to elect Rajiv G@ndu.

Remember "When a great tree falls, the earth shakes"?

That was a quote justifying the killing of 3,000 Sikhs after Indira Gandhi's death.

You have got three guesses as to who said that.

Dosti Mittar:

I think you write sensible posts. It seems you are not addicted to religion to start with. I wonder if it is due to Canadian mindset, fresh snow and sleepy Canadian Parliamentary culture, rule of law and peace and finally an opprtunity to think without those fiery nationalist inspiration!

I hope you would travel to Pakistan and live there for few months and get a taste of what life there.

Kamath
Rome AJ-22

#127 pea-brain pandit arjun: is this your latest finding? ha! ha! you are more fun than a barrel of monkeys.

Re: # 130 Arjun_5

I should have put additional qualifiers. Namely, 'it is highly unlikely that a freely elected parliament with no pressure from the Army/ISI on its foreign policy and relations with Indiain Pakistan will support a Kashmiri Jehad when it know that the consequence will be unremitting hostility with India. '

It is unlikely that Benazir's government had no pressure from the Army/ISI towards its India policy. My point: put the Army in its proper role (i.e. take orders from elected parliament) and relations with neighbors will improve.

#129 Posted by Pew_Research on February 27, 2008 4:30:36


I'll be more specific - it is highly unlikely that a freely elected parliament in Pakistan will support a Kashmiri Jehad when it know that the consequence will be unremitting hostility with India.


YOu're completely wrong there....remember benazir's jag-jag-mo-mo-han-han? the pakis will support the "jihadi option" if they think it doesn't hurt them...support for suicide bombing only went down a little in pureland because the jihadis started whacking pakis..

don't forget, when pakis thought they were winning in kargil, they were completely supportive of that war...

Re: # 109

"...I am not sure that the erosion of the Pakistani institutions had a negative effect on neighbourly relations..."

I'll be more specific - it is highly unlikely that a freely elected parliament in Pakistan will support a Kashmiri Jehad when it know that the consequence will be unremitting hostility with India. Such a parliament has never existed for long in Pakistan because of the Army's interference. Musharraf did nothing to cultivate one either.

#93 Posted by dost_mittar on February 26, 2008 9:13:49 pm


What's wrong with resolving a problem that has been a festering wound for both countries?


are bhai..resolve, HOW?..

the pakis want indian kashmir...india - the new india, not the kuldip nayyar generation - won't give up an inch of what they have...neither are they interested in Pakistan occupied Kashmir...

so where's the resolution? you people keep saying resolution resolution but never say what a possible resolution could be...all I see in your post is a bunch of platitudes and wishful thinking...

#113 Posted by tahmed32 on February 26, 2008 10:07:45 pm


This scoundrel could have caused a nuclear holocaust in South Asia!!


prophetboy: when the paki junta thought the mujahideen was winning, they were completely supportive of the kargil war..

it's only when the reality of the ass whooping and the abandoned dead bodies came to light that some pakis thought different...a majority of pakis still think mushy sneaking his army up abandoned mountains was tactically brilliant..

Are there no common things between Pakistanis and Indians ??..... There must be a lot of things if we look for it..... It is better to look for these things scale them up….

Dost,

Here is the final divergence proof from india. In pakistan a woman was killed in the office of a human rights activist, no one was charged with murder, because it was a honour killing, completely legal in pakistan. And here is a report from india. No two neihbours can be as far apart as pakistan and india in terms of social values, what people expect from the legal system, in terms of value of human life. The jihadification of the pak society has devalued the life, where people are being killed for a mobil;e phone, and routinely more than a hundred dead unclamied bodies are collected from karachi alone every week, one thing is certain, there is nothing in common between india and pakistan at the aggregate level. Individual levels are something very different, and that does not count at teh aggregate level.


Boss faces call-centre death case
Som Mittal
Mr Mittal faces a 1,000 rupee fine if he is found guilty
The boss of a call-centre worker who was raped and murdered on her way home from work in India is to be prosecuted for providing insufficient security.

Som Mittal was managing director of Hewlett-Packard GlobalSoft in 2005 when Pratibha Srikanth Murthy was killed.

Dost,

Here is the final divergence proof from india. In pakistan a woman was killed in the office of a human rights activist, no one was charged with murder, because it was a honour killing, completely legal in pakistan. And here is a report from india. No two neihbours can be as far apart as pakistan and india in terms of social values, what people expect from the legal system, in terms of value of human life. The jihadification of the pak society has devalued the life, where people are being killed for a mobil;e phone, and routinely more than a hundred dead unclamied bodies are collected from karachi alone every week, one thing is certain, there is nothing in common between india and pakistan at the aggregate level. Individual levels are something very different, and that does not count at teh aggregate level.


Boss faces call-centre death case
Som Mittal
Mr Mittal faces a 1,000 rupee fine if he is found guilty
The boss of a call-centre worker who was raped and murdered on her way home from work in India is to be prosecuted for providing insufficient security.

Som Mittal was managing director of Hewlett-Packard GlobalSoft in 2005 when Pratibha Srikanth Murthy was killed.

Iraquisation

There is one thing certain, pakistan will be iraquised, and indian troops will be in the forefront. Within a decade, mullahs will take over pakistan and the world is not going to tolerate an jihadi bomb.

Knock out the paki troops, the country will get divided as in iraq, and they will fight one another while the rest of the world can have some rest.

Mush was forced to toe with NS line by USA. After 1998, both India and Pakistan was economically weaker for the burden of sanction. Pokhran test was mainly aiming China. When two people fight, they try to keep the pet dog aside. India is also trying to keep Pakistan aside for the larger struggle.

Re: # 119
Karunanidhi has not killed as many as Modi managed to.
Ans: How you know Modi is responsible for killing of more people than Karunanidhi?
Modi has improved law and order situation in Gujrat. Please provide with evidence and statistics to prove your point.
Narendra Modi is in politics for long time. He had the opportunity to amass wealth for long time. He has not opted that path. Neither he has allowed any of his family members to exploit his power. Karunanidhi has kept all his family members in politics and even ensures one of them will be minister to loot public money. Even Mr. Thackarey is better than Karunanidhi. At least, he speaks for Marathis in Mumbai.

Dost

Peace between two countries is an outcome of similarities in values, hope and expectations. There is hardly anything in common between india and pakistan. Pakistan is an islamic country, the legal system is governed by islamic values, exemplified by hoodood ordinance and blasphemy laws.

Indians value education, always ready to claim nobel laurette, chandrashekhar as an india, while he is a long lost indian, an american citizen. Abdus salaam a pak citizen is never honoured in pakistan. For a long time I wrote on chowk arguing that an article be published on his birthday to honour him. No pakistani, has ever supported any notion of some sort of honouring of abdus salaam because he is an ahmadia. India, for hindus and muslims, abdul kalam is considered as the next gandhi.

What I have cited are reflections of the core values of the two societies and they are poles apart.

You will know that in india, bride burnings and now even femeale foetus killings are criminal offences. It was only a few years ago that pakistan changed the laws regarding rape and honour killings in an in-human way. India and pakistan are diverging in terms of social values, and all what you have identified are mere superficial changes that can be reversed in a day.

The divergence of teh central social values are on the increase as india embraces more of teh so called western values, whether they are good or bad. The mosr recent is the living together, equating it to marriage. In pakistan it is death to the female.

I recall that you visited pakistan, but denying the fundamentals do not help pakistan or india.

Re: # 118

Karunanidhi has not killed as many as Modi managed to.

"If Modi is goon, he can not be popular in a progressive state like Gujrat. He is very popular amongst young and urban voters. A pennyless person like Modi can not get that overwhelming support without leadership quality and good execution. "

Who said goons cannot be popular with youth and urban voters? We saw what youth and urban voters, for Thugray, can do in Bombay. Even Karunanidhi was pennyless when he started his political career.

Re: # 114
In which respect Karunanidhi has better credentials? He has amassed wealth through unfair means. All his sons are goons and manipulate using money and muscle power.
If Modi is goon, he can not be popular in a progressive state like Gujrat. He is very popular amongst young and urban voters. A pennyless person like Modi can not get that overwhelming support without leadership quality and good execution.

Was in Tashkent last week. Met a Pakistani youngster. Said he was flabbergasted at seeing see so much white pusey. Throughout his stay he did nothing but drink and fornicate. According to him you cannot see any firangs in Lahore, Rawalpindi and Peshawar. They all get abducted, he said.
Thanks to Musharraf?
Promised to visit again and again. He need not be so sure. A few years ago all Pakistanis had been unceremoniously bundled out of Uzbekistan, most, it appears, were trying to incite islamic fundamentalism among local population.

Dost,
The issue with the people of Pakistan was to loudly and clearly thwart the threat from within and tell the world that Musharraf is not indispensible.The majority of the nation is more moderate than him and reject his flawed thesis of enlightened moderation.
Cheerios

dost-mittar #112
If the assassins of your friend had been Bajrang Dal goons who had trained in Gujarat, you would not write an article but would agree with the statement as a matter of fact that "'Modi must be given credit for not having any riots after 2002'". Correct so far?

My question in #101 was if the assassins of your friend had been Bajrang Dal goons who had trained in Gujarat, would you refrain from holding Modi responsible for continuing to train goons for murder and rather give him credit for the lack of riots after 2002?

Re: # 106

Modi knows if he continues to perpetrate his ways, he will be whacked.

Karunanidhi has better credentials than Modi. He and his sons have not murdered as many as Modi did.

#96 dost mittar: i am glad we agree on something (irresponsible statements by advani after 1998 blasts). but ultimately they worked in Pakistan's favor - they tilted Nawaz Sharif in favor of the military viewpoint of responding in kind and against the US viewpoint (conveyed via direct phone call from Clinton) of taking the so-called "high road" and not responding.

This is one time the generals had it right - because by demonstrating its nuclear capability, Pakistan ushered in peace, albeit a perilous one based on the MAD (mutually assured destruction) doctrine.


This brings me to another problem I have with your blessing a militar dictator for bringing peace - Musharraf's kargill sabotage of the peace process between NS and Vajpayee was all the more irresponsible because it was done in the shadow of the MAD doctrine. This scoundrel could have caused a nuclear holocaust in South Asia!!

You may not agree with the above at first reading - but think about it and I think you will agree that this is indeed the case.

sadna#101:

I am not sure I fully understand your post.

Re: # 108


Amassing wealth is not half dangerous as aspiring to be a Hitler. I don't support Karunanidhi and his progenies and also JJ.

I would rather let a money greedy guy rule over me than a power greedy. I do not want to live for somebody's whims.

nhk#90:

Salaam:

"Only when he was himslf was attacked, some sane realization dawned on him."

The attacks on him were an important catalyst, thanks for filling this important gap.

"He PROBABLY came on Jihadis but never eliminated these so called `Strategic Assets'."

Maybe they are still there if the reports of the ISI as a state within state are correct.

"Kashmir solution will take time & probably will automatically evaporate in an envisaged closer Economic/Political relationship within SAARC."

Agreed. But will the "envisaged closer Economic/Political relationship within SAARC" ever happen without the normalisation of relations between India and Pakistan?

Pew_Research#80:

"Your assessment of Musharraf is half true - the other truth is that India-Pakistan relationship nosedived with Musharraf's ascent."

Agreed! and this is what I implied when I said that Musharraf started with a messy slate.

"You also gloss over the decay of Pakistani civil society and the systematic erosion of Pakistani institutions that Musharraf presided over - this alone has a tremendous negative impact on neighborly ties."

I am not sure that the erosion of the Pakistani institutions had a negative effect on neighbourly relations. These institutions, especially the bureaucracy and the media, in Pakistan have fully supported jihad in Pakistan. Look no further than chowk where voices from hamidm to urstruly have all supported jihad in Kashmir.

"Last, but not the least, you did not analyze Musharraf's mindset for the Pakistani turnaround on the Taliban in his 'India - Lay Off!' speech after 9/11."

Musharraf's actions, not his mindset, is the focus of this article. The "hudbaiya" thing apart, I think that he is somebody who wants to move fast in resolving problems; I think that once he realised that normalisation with India was in Pakistan's interests, he was willing to take the necessary actions to make it happen.

Re: # 100
One more point - Modi has not amassed wealth like Karunanidhi and his wives and relatives. How can he influence people, if he is not doing good work!!! In democracy, he has to work according to the will of the people.

laddu #88: i didnt red flag your post, bro. But keep on the track you are on, and you will become like your distinguished countrymen pandit islamislam and sriram allah (i.e. their entire existence on chowk defined by their obsession with islam).

Re: # 100
Modi does not control VHP/Bajrang Dal. Even in this election they were against Mr. Modi. During 2002 riot, he has refrained police from taking hard action against mob. In that respect, every state Govt. supports this. The situation in Tamil Nadu and West Bengal are far worse than Gujrat. Who is Karunanidihi and his sons? What is CPI(M) in Kerala and West Bengal? It is upto you to honestly admit that. Ragrding Setu project, what action of Modi looks like violent to you? Please enlighten. Bihar, UP, Maharashtra had experienced large number of riots. These were during Congress period. When large section of population resort to violence, Indian administration does not try to control it effectively for the fear of backlash (to be faced in the next election). The way Mr. Modi has handled Narmada Bachao Movement, I have not seen any state Govt. handling such kind of movement with so much of civility.

#89 Posted by nazarhayatkhan

"Here you are incorrect. Army guys are not so far-sighted to plan a clever sophisticated revenge like this on a COAS firing."

Khan Sahib while not disagreeing with you entirely, I should remind you that actions sometimes have many purposes. Many angles are explored and many advantages are sought from one action.

If they were farsighted they would not have touched kargill when they did. So farsightedness is not their forte and we all agree with that but it is the lack of farsightedness that regrettably takes the Pak army to the areas where they should never tread!

I am sure you know how the decision making process works in the Pak army. It always starts with a "Sir ji…if we do this…then wada faeeda hoonda and then ends up with finding a surrogate to take the fall for the mistakes!

Kargil might have been in the plans for a long time. It was resurrected just in time to restore the GHQ prestige which had suffered enormously after the COAS was fired and also set a trap for the PM, who was eventually going to be the fall guy. The military controlled media later tried to exonerate the army and blamed Nawaz for surrender in Washington, while the poor guy was trying very hard to extricate the army in his own judgment from the ignobility!

I fully support Nawaz's demand that the NA should investigate Kargil. Now we do need to investigate all the military stupidities in Pakistan but Kargil would be a good start!

The Pakistan politicians must learn to nib the army when they can and they have the public sympathy behind them to do start doing that now! Otherwise the same army would again stab the people in the back!

Pakistan's survival depends on not having the army as the uniting force. I hope you agree with this!

Re: # 86
Stupid. India was never militarily involved in Afghanisthan. Rather, India provided help in education, health and other sectors, which common people of Afg. benefits. In this respect, Pakistan will never get upperhand in civilian sectors in Afg. Any civil Govt. in Afg will be pro-Indian.

Re: # 86
Stupid. India was never militarily involved in Afghanisthan. Rather, India provided help in education, health and other sectors, which common people of Afg. benefits. In this respect, Pakistan will never get upperhand in civilian sectors in Afg. Any civil Govt. in Afg will be pro-Indian.

anil#73:

"He did not create conditions for change between India and Pakistan. Almost all visible conditions were external."

No, he did not create those conditions. But he did have the will and the capacity to change his position in the current circumstances. Even the bureaucracy, let alone military establishment, would not have let a civilian leader take some dramatic changes.

I had written at chowk a couple of years ago that even though Musharraf has described Kashmir as the jugular vein of Pakistan, he would choose Pakistan over Kashmir if he had to make the choice, and this is what he did.

dost_mittar #91
Let us be clear. If the assassins were Bajrang Dal goons who had trained in Gujarat, you would not hold Modi responsible for continuing to train goons for murder and prefer to point to the lack of riots after 2002?

Re: # 97

Mr.nkg

Are you trying to say that the carnage in Gujarat does not amount to goondaism? Hasn't he facilitated goondas to control the lives of Hindus? In the premise of saving Hinduism, didn't we see his goondas intimidate people?

No amount of economic development will offset fascism. Doesn't he resort to goondaism when he says no to Sethusamudram project?

After open economy, people are more bothered about prosperity than Pakistan/China anybody else. The biggest concern for India is China and not Pakistan. The low intensity conflict may bleed India, but ecomic growth better than China will provide India an upper hand in military capability as well.
1998 Neuclear test was conducted to threaten China ( stupid idea from A P J Kalam and RSS/BJP people bought the logic). China have used Pakistan to invade in Kargil.

GT#72:

"Why can't a peace process not be reversed?"

I have already said in an earlier interact that I do not think that the peace process is yet irreversible, but could become so if the current momentum is maintained and vested interests develop on both sides of the border to maintain peace between the two countries.

"The US or Pakistan will not solve the problem of "terrorism" for India. Indians will have to do so by themselves."

With this, I agree one hundred per cent. But outside help can't hurt either.

Re: # 92
Mr. Anil, Modi is not goonda. He has very clean political record. Gujrat is not Pakistan, where negative rhetoric can win election. Certain points Gujratis know very well, which is not highlighted by media.
Sohrbuddin was a gangster and was budding Dawood Ibrahim under Congress umbrella. There were pending cases against him in Rajasthan and MP as well. So, the encounter, though looks illegal, have saved another disaster in happening like Mumbai. He has taken similar steps against mafias in Porebandar. Media does not show that.
Regarding riots, it is now clear that you disarm moslems, riot stops. More than 200 year old tradition is history now. Whatever happened during 2002 is abberation. If Modi had any plan to eleminate moslems, he should have taken long term approach (like moslems in Pakistan and Bangladesh has taken. You will not see any sudden flair up, but situation is created in such a way that people will leave their home gradually and over a period of 10/15 years, the entire demography etc...got changed). He is very much autocratic and couple of his ministers are tainted. That is very small compared to other states.

tahmed32:

I tend to agree with you that the Indian leaders' statements after their explosion of the nuclear bomb were irresponsible and provocative in nature.

BREAKING NEWS

This is to inform all the chowkis that 1008 Shri Shri Laddu Gopal Maharaj ji would not be available for the next two months on the Chowk.
In case Pakistani Momeens would like to celebrate his unforeseen voluntary absence as victory and a retribution of the angry moon god , they may do it by distributing laddus made of Boondi.

allahu.

#66:

"India also has an external reason for ending hostility with Pakistan. India’s dreams of becoming a world power have never been closer to becoming reality than now. But to do so, India has to be acceptable as a leader in its own backyard. For that to happen, it needs to be perceived as a Big Brother and not] as a Big Bully. It needs to be a force for stability and progress in the neighbourhood. Pakistan is passing through a difficult phase. It can help it maintain stability and prosperity by strengthening Musharraf’s hands against forces of instability, a stable Pakistan is good for a stable India."

[dost-mittar:http://www.chowk.com/articles/10398

arjun_5#67:

What's wrong with resolving a problem that has been a festering wound for both countries? I think that Musharraf's proposal's came as close to accepting status quo as any Pakistani leader is ever going to accept. Yes, under current conditions, it seems difficult to imagine how Pakistan can change the status quo, but geopolitical forces of equilibrium can change at a future date. Why not put an end to uncertainty? You are right, there probably cannot be a full restoration of normal friendly relations on a permanent basis unless the Kashmir issue is resolved. But one can use the current momentum to at least make sure that both countries get a stake in peaceful resolutions of their problems.

Re: # 91

Sadna:

", would we ever have had an article from you saying 'Modi must be given credit for not having any riots after 2002'."


Don't you think you are making a case for electing gundaas?

sadna#59:

", would we ever have had an article from you saying 'Modi must be given credit for not having any riots after 2002'."

I may not write an article but would agree with the statement as a matter of fact.

Dear Dost

With respect, I do not buy that Musharaf contributed towards peace between India-Pakistan.

He came with the typical goofy Fauji mindset of India-Enemy & Kashmir-Honour. And bleeding India through low intensity conflict (Jihadis).

He thought that he was clever enough to go into history by signing a quicky Peace deal with India - Agra. He screwed up that event by refusing to add `reducing the X-border' Jihadis - something which was a well known fact. And progress on all outstanding issues simultaneously.

Only when he was himslf was attacked, some sane realization dawned on him. He PROBABLY came on Jihadis but never eliminated these so called `Strategic Assets'.

By this time, after having wasted a few years, he agreed to `resolve all issues including Kasmir simultaneously' - something he could have acceeded during the Agra.

Then during the Peace process, he was finicky over trivial issues of Trade & People-to-people contact just on the stupid premise of Quid-pro-Quo. If trade was good for us, that was a good enough reason. If India also gains in the process, so be it.

Meanwhile, he was throwing up all kinds of solutions on Kasmir on his own without even discussing the subject in the Parliament. And voluntarily, giving up the basic stance on Kashmir.

After 8 years, he has reached where the Politicians - Bhutto & Nawaz had already reached. He wasted 8 years.

The Polticians believed & belive NORMAL relations with India in all areas without giving up the basic stance on Kashmir. Kashmir solution will take time & probably will automatically evaporate in an envisaged closer Economic/Political relationship within SAARC.

NHK

HP # 24

``Kargil had nothing to do with India. It was as usual a Pak army ploy to bring down a political government that had just sacked the army COAS for interfering in the political affairs.''

Here you are incorrect. Army guys are not so far-sighted to plan a clever sophisticated revenge like this on a COAS firing.

India & Kashmir are two subjects in which they are regulary brain-washed. And cutting the lines of supply to Siachin was a juicy plan which has exited in the Army since long. I have myself heard Mushharaf give an excited presentation on the subject in 85.

NHK

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Ref Mullah32 #4

[trouble with indians like you is that you are obsessed with the slap in the face you received in 1947.]

The fcuker who got a slap in the face was Jinnah-bhai whose dream of a Great Pakistan was dashed b the partition of Punjab and Bengal.

The next fcuker who got a slap in the face was Bhutto whose ambition to become Prime Minister was thwarted by Mujibur Rahman winning a majority of the seats in Pakistans parliamentary election.

The next fcuker who got a slap in the face was Nawaz Sharif who was told to get out of Kargil or else.

The next in line to get a slap in the face was Jarnail-sahib Pervez Musharraf who was told to get behind the US or be prepared to be bombed back to the Stone Age.

The only thing wrong with that last one was, it has been Stone Age for a long time in the Land of the Pure, what with The Book to End All Books being the Constitution.

[60 years later you are defining your entire existence on chowk as "slamming islam". you people are pathetic.]

You are the pathetic people who are defining your country as "Not India" But all of a sudden, you found out that the Green Passport might get you into Islamic jannat but not into most civilized countries without a body cavity search.

By the way, congratulations on parsing my name correctly after so many months.

In response to the now famous US line "you are either with us or against us" and facing the threat of Pakistan being bombed out, the great "statesman" in uniform started shitting bricks and overnight decided to dump the Talibs and present his backside to the Mricans, the only condition for his total capitulation being that India be left out of any operations to be carried out in Afganistan.

Re: # 80

the 'Treaty of Hudaibiya'.

Indeed, that was the message that the entire nation of Pakistan could easily understand. Mush thought that it was the essence of his position- and part of the Islamic warfare tactics of strategic compromise that takes inspiration from Mohammad.
Infact, most Pakistanis are brought up on this concept of veiwing compromises with India on the basis of 'Treaty of Hudaibiya' since ages. Even Shimla Agreement was one such treaty that Pakistanis think becomes non binding when they are strong.
I feel that unless and until PAkistani state gets out of its Islamic view finder and views India diplomatically as a modern day neighboring nation state it would remain struck up in the rut it is now!!

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#79 so..when being shown the mirror, pandit-hate gets abusive. ha! ha!

Dost Mittar:

I read your article carefully (twice!). You were careful to not directly praise Musharraf for the changed relations between the 'two twins separated violently at birth'. But, you undoubtedly implied that the change is due to Musharraf when you write, 'But what one can say, with some degree of certainty, is that another leader could not have made a complete about-turn in his policies towards India as Musharraf did…Musharraf’s personality, especially his penchant for taking quick decisions and decisive actions under the changed circumstances in which Pakistan found itself following the US “war on terror� undoubtedly played a significant part in changing the direction of Indo-Pak relations.'

Your assessment of Musharraf is half true - the other truth is that India-Pakistan relationship nosedived with Musharraf's ascent. Nawaz Sharif and even Bhutto had cultivated better relationship with India. This omission is a serious one. You did not pin blame on Musharraf for reckless adventurism, without which any analysis of his impact on neighborly relations is incomplete.

You also gloss over the decay of Pakistani civil society and the systematic erosion of Pakistani institutions that Musharraf presided over - this alone has a tremendous negative impact on neighborly ties.

Last, but not the least, you did not analyze Musharraf's mindset for the Pakistani turnaround on the Taliban in his 'India - Lay Off!' speech after 9/11. Specifically, Musharraf alluded to the ultimatum that Richard Armitage gave him - "Pakistan is facing a very critical situation and I believe that after 1971, this is the most critical period. The decision we take today can have far-reaching and wide- ranging consequences. The crisis is formidable and unprecedented. If we take wrong decisions in this crisis, it can lead to worst consequences... The negative consequences can endanger Pakistan's integrity and solidarity."

This speech is also interesting because it clearly illuminates his thinking about India as a 'threat' and 'competitor', not a 'partner'.

If plainspeak about the US ultimatum was not enough, then Musharraf went one step further by referring to the 'Treaty of Hudaibiya'. This reference is critical. The Treaty of Hudaibiya was signed by Prophet Mohammed with the 'non-believers' of Mecca and brought temporary truce with his enemies while he focused his attention on the Jews. By referring to this treaty, Musharraf was highlighting the need for expediency over shared values (which the Prophet did not share with 'non-believers').

So, in sum, Musharraf as a statesman is a pretty short one. Don't be fooled, and worse, do not talk him up by ignoring the expedient shifts in position that he is capable of.

Source of Musharraf's 9/11 speech:
http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/pakistanpresident.htm

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HP #70 What you say is quite reasonable. Please dont be cruel to our islam-obsessed hindu pandit-hates..you know their allergy to reason and facts and they start sneezing uncontrollably like Allah-mian and arjun below.

#75 First IslamIslam, now ALlah mian himself - another indian clown defining his entire presence on chowk with his hindu-chauvinism!!

the monkey show goes on..present a little bit of reality to the monkeys and watch the monkeys hop in horror!! ha! ha!

Actually, when I ask the most important question about the "Jazba-e-Jehad" of the Pakistanis now they are feeling better after elections- one can see the shrug as if it is a foregone conclusion.

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Musharraf is the Gorbachev of Pakistan, who is hell bent on dismantling the geographical as well as ideological borders of state of Pakistan - not to mention the culture, values, history, and livelihood of Pakistanis. Therefore, Musharraf is important to all those forces that have been and are enemies of state of pakistan. Enough said.

Dost Sahib:

Musharraff has been a catalyst for change in Pakistan. He did not create conditions for change between India and Pakistan. Almost all visible conditions were external.

Internal changes in India, and Pakistan (HP’s travelogue) are very significant.

Today’s India, and it seems today’s Pakistan also, have little interest in war making.

This to me is a generational change. Aspirations and dreams are different. Shell-shock, hatred, anger etc. are replacing in the generation of grand kids of parition, with adversary yes, enemey may be not.

Middle class is now sizeable and quite vibrant in both countries. It is ready to compete without being a cannon fodder. I read somewhere here that now Shahid Afridi is treated as part of the family by Yuvraj's father. This demonstrates adversary not enemy spirit.

According to my personal experience in India, and my readings of Pakistani viewpoints mainly here at Chowk, middle class in India is busy in acquiring consumer products, education, and wealth.

IT has given many Indians new success models and role models of success through entrepreneurship. I know for fact fashion design (30% of Victoria's Secret production comes out Sri Lanka), automobile and healthcare services are well in line.

Pakistani middle class is in no mood to support their Army. Middle class there now seems to blame Army for impeding progress and now bringing the nation to the brink. Once the blame game is over in Pakistan, you will find younger Pakistanis to be as keen to discover their magic bullets, as today's India.

A few Pakistani success stories tied to India connection need to happen next to put this equation between the two countries to the next orbit. Can anyone stop this from happening? I do not think so.

I cannot believe Shoaib Akhtar, and other Pakistani players with their riches coming from Indian Premier League will want to go back and fight in Kashmir to compete. Indian Kashmiris are not blind they too will see and read about them. Barrier to entry is their own talent and capabilities, much as in IT.

The competition needs to change from competing with India to competing in India, or for better marketing competition in South Asia.

I can see this handwriting being written on the wall as we debate.

Shoaib Akhtars are not just performers, they are star performers. In today's world star performers are not limited within a nation-state. Bill Gates & co proved it a generation ago, and are the role models for these start performers.

Their successes have potential to become talk of the town, and drown, Ganesh mutant and mother burner rants of HP mians of Pakistan. If this older generation does not have to the new tune, HP Mians run the risk of being dumped in a dumpster. Younger south asians of the middle class have no patience for such rants.

These trends are called secular trends. They produce changes which are phenomenal. These changes do not happen all the time, but when they start, they change the landscape so completely and in the process produce new leaders and new stars. Romair may not realize, but he is in a similarly unique position with regards to integrated services (not IT) phenomena that is unstoppable in south asia.

Adversarial spirit is still alive and going strong. Hopefully this spirit will bring a new competition among South Asians. Musharraff is a mere catalyst. The changes that forced his hand may soon be responsible for his demise too.

D-M sahib,

"When was the last time that we had so many confidence building measures taking place?"

And what do "confidence building measures" do? Have they they decreased violence? Why can't a peace process not be reversed? How many people use the trains etc. to cross the border, and how does it reduce the propensity of states to induce violence in each other's countries? Who cares as to now much Punjabi traders make in carting goods over the border? (Perhaps the customs people do because now they get lesser bribes).

D-M sahib, the dictator does not matter. Holding candles does not matter too. The US or Pakistan will not solve the problem of "terrorism" for India. Indians will have to do so by themselves. Furthermore, to do so effectively we do not need to become a global power. We can start by small effective steps: (i) Increasing the budget of the IB; (ii) Cracking down on corruption in the Border Security Force; (iii) Cracking down on the cowboys in the Indian army and rewarding "intelligence" both in the army and police; (iv) discard socialistic land laws and introduce genuine property rights; (v) revitalize democracy in panchayats; (vi) force politicians to demand a law whereby MPs, MLAs etc. can be recalled before their term ends.

These measures will help India much more than the dictator and candles in the border.

#69 Posted by muqaddam on February 26, 2008 10:26:08 am


Indian leaders going soft on their posture on Pakistan consequent to the explosions is just bullshit.


That's prophetboy in a nutshell...bullshit...

"The explosions conducted by India were a successful attempt to get the Pakistanis to reveal what they had,"

Wow! India had to test nukes to make Pakistan go public with its nukes. That has to be one of the best diplomatic coup or the strategic move ever witnessed in the international arena. Indians are really strategic geniuses!

Was the Indian government really this idiot? All it had to do was ask the US. They knew Pakistan had the bomb!

Re: # 68
That Pakistan had nuclear weapons was known to India. The explosions conducted by India were a successful attempt to get the Pakistanis to reveal what they had, so this talk of Indian leaders going soft on their posture on Pakistan consequent to the explosions is just bullshit.

dm #57 sorry to have mis-read your post where you in fact had the the correct sequence of events on nuclearization and kargill.

Nevertheless, my basic point remains valid: the BJP attitude with Pakistan took a 180 degree turn after nuclearization, with threats and public statemetns following indian explosions being replaced with talk of peace and Vajpayee visiting Pakistan within the year or so.

Nawaz Sharif has strong business roots and was never one for saber-rattling with India (it is a fact that even after the Indian explosions he was in two minds, being pushed by Clinton to take the so-called "high road" and not respond in kind and by the Pakistan military to give India a "fitting reply" - and NS then took the latter). So, it was only natural for him as a man with a business background to respond positively to BJP's change in tune after the "fitting reply".

So, if you must write an article praising a military dictator for a peace process, then you need to give due emphasis to 1. the structural change in military equation due to nuclearization which caused BJP to magically see the light wrt the existence of Pakistan; and 2. the fact that it is this same military dictator who put the process on ice for a few years with his sabotage of the peace talks through kargill.

#66 Posted by HP on February 26, 2008 9:49:22 am


India is a democracy and it is assumed that democracies attempt to resolve disputes through dialogs and persuasion.


No amount of dialog or persuasion is going to make India give you kashmir on a platter...get over it..


India has problems with Pakistan, with Bangladesh, with Sri Lanka and even with Bhutan, Nepal and that tiny thing Sikkim.


let's see...we've got paki terrorists in india..paki terrorists in afghanistan..and the jundullah guys in iran...top top it off, you're got uighur terrorists who were trained in pakiland..

of course, there's the paki terrorism problem in the US, UK, canada, australia, spain, france australia etc etc.


Recently, the economic guru and the Shoukat Aziz of India, MM Singh was publicly heard musing over the failure of the economy to reduce poverty.


MMS is the shaukat aziz of india? so he maniuplated GDP numbers to show a higher growth rate? used the meaningless per capita income(instead of the PPP basis) to tout increasing incomes? told everyone things were peachy when inflation was more than 10%...

This article is a showcase of Indian problems in its neighborhood. India is a democracy and it is assumed that democracies attempt to resolve disputes through dialogs and persuasion. But in India’s case every dispute it has with its neighbors becomes unsolvable as soon as it emerges even on a very small scale. India has problems with Pakistan, with Bangladesh, with Sri Lanka and even with Bhutan, Nepal and that tiny thing Sikkim.

India has problems with China going back to 50 years. It has problems with Pakistan going back to 60 years and it has problems with Bangladesh going back to now almost 40 years. And if you ask India, all these problems are because of the countries in its neighborhood.

This article by DM shows how much Indians hate introspection. The smaller countries in the Indian neighborhood only have problems with India because the Indian democracy is so inept. While its failure to resolve internal problems is legendary, its failure to resolve international problems with its neighbor is perfunctory!

The strangest of democracy in the world, on close examination, would get failing grades on every issue it encountered in the last 6o years after the Brits left. The magnitude of the internal problems, unresolved by the successive Indian democratic government, is mounting with every passing year. The country has no highway system, its airports are from the 19th centuries, its railroad still has un-repaired railroad stations from 1930s.

The poverty in India is actually on the rise, the food shortages chronic, undernourishment is the norm. Social, religious and caste issues suck every ounce of political energy of any government. It is one democracy where to win elections you have to find a dispute with another religious group. Still its desire is to be the regional power.

There is no harm in having desires that are unattainable but in India’s case it truly can become the regional powerhouse. Not just the military powerhouse but the economic powerhouse that it deserves to be.

The first step in becoming a regional power is to create harmony in the region otherwise you are just a bully who would be resented, poked, chipped, stabbed and taunted at every step of the way. That is what is happening with India.

Pakistan junta dumps its problems on India in the form of infiltrators almost at will, Bangladesh allows its poor to cross borders because the Indian State would not work for any solution with Bangladesh.

Until 1992 the country had no economic policy and finally when it was bailed out by the IMF, it picked up the IMF recommended system of trickle down economy without any questions asked. Trickle down works very well when the workers are integrated in one economic and industrial system. In India’s case the trickle down would take a millennium or two to work!

Recently, the economic guru and the Shoukat Aziz of India, MM Singh was publicly heard musing over the failure of the economy to reduce poverty. Despite the great scheme of some rupees every month to families that have no visible means of income.

With a country as big as India, there may be a few things that are good or perhaps work but that happens not by some design. It all happens because some factors take a form out of chaotic policy initiatives or some international economic complications allow the trickle down effects to reach India.

But for every Indian, like the author of this article, all Indian problems are created by others…poor Indians just don’t know how to resolve them.

#63 Posted by dost_mittar on February 26, 2008 9:11:19 am

here's the bottom line:

pakis want indian kashmir i.e. they want to alter the status quo..there's no way they're going to succeed..so the only way to peace is for them to STFU and accept the status quo...which is what they're doing..accepting the status quo because they can't do anything to alter it...everything else flows from that...bus service that nobody uses..train services that run empty because visas are hard to come by...

of course, that acceptance is only because of pureland's precarious situation...the minute they think the situation is in their favor, they'll go back to the jihadi option..this isn't speculation...there's a precedence for this...right after 9/11 when dubya made mushy grease up and bend over, people like capt clueless thought pakiland would now be the bees knees in the US..and with uncle sam's wind in her sails, pakiland could afford to sic the jihadis on india at not cost to itself..the bleed india option..I can point you to his exact words if you want..

well...450+ dead pakis just this year has taught them a temporary lesson..

HP#50:

"It is hard to discuss political issues with people whose political understanding is based on what they read in daily Newspapers."


Then please don't! I am what I am and cannot be what I am not.

GT#48,49:

I beg to differ. I do see a qualitative change this time. When was the last time that we had so many confidence building measures taking place? when was the last time a Pakistani leader called the peace process irreversible? (the ususal line was that the peace process cannot move forward unless the Kashmir problem is solved first). When was the last time trains, buses, trucks and airplane services were expanding between the two countries? When was the last time that trade was growing exponentially between the two countries? And when was the last time that Hindus were able to visit their holy places in Pakistan? Even if the peace process is not irreversible now, it will become so in a few years if the momentum continues.

Regarding haves and have nots in India, I think that there are distinct differences between the two types of terrorist activities taking place in India. The naxalites clearly represent the have-nots but there is hardly any Muslim in their ranks; on the other hand, the Muslims taking part in terrorist activities, now more and more home grown, are more like their educated counterparts in the western countries; there are highly educated professionals in their ranks who are out to avenge real or perceived injustices to their community.

GT#48,49:

I beg to differ. I do see a qualitative change this time. When was the last time that we had so many confidence building measures taking place? when was the last time a Pakistani leader called the peace process irreversible? (the ususal line was that the peace process cannot move forward unless the Kashmir problem is solved first). When was the last time trains, buses, trucks and airplane services were expanding between the two countries? When was the last time that trade was growing exponentially between the two countries? And when was the last time that Hindus were able to visit their holy places in Pakistan? Even if the peace process is not irreversible now, it will become in a few years if the momentum continues.

Ras#47:

Yes, nuclear armed countries have to act more responsibly.

As for the Kahmir issue, I think that it still has a lot of emotional baggage on both sides but I have a feeling that it is no longer considered to be the sha-rug by Pakistanis.

Ranjit#46:

I fully agree with you. I look towards future with cautious optimism.

dost-mittar
I am curious, if the assassins had been Bajrang Dal goons who had trained in Gujarat, would we ever have had an article from you saying 'Modi must be given credit for not having any riots after 2002'.

You are talking of ending of a Pakistani state policy which is run by those who care little for what people think. Their budget though a huge fraction of the national one and paid for by general public is a one-line item which no civilian official can question forget about ordinary people.

Musharraf cannot be given credit for promoting peace in the face of his continuing jihad and subversion policy, whatever reasons you cite for his continuing jihad and subversion policy.

pmishra#45:

"But I am much less hopeful about the future. Pakistan has a 60 year history of being for "rent" by the highest bidder. Whoever will pay the elite class, will get the country to follow them."

Please read Ranjit's post above yours, with which I am in full agreement. For the first time, Pakistanis are looking at India with admiration and respect and not disdain. Earlier, some of them used to admire our democracy but found nothing else to admire, as they were doing better than Indians in terms of standard of living, economic well-being and physical infrastructure. However, they have noticed the rapid progress of India during the last fifteen years and the favourable international image that it has been creating for itself, while the opposite is happening to their own country. In fact, their admiration for Indian democracy is somewhat diminished as they see the democratic system producing leaders like Narendra Modi.

tahmed32:

"As for your saying Kargill happened before the 1998 explosions -"

Ek guzaarish hai aap se: please read my posts twice before responding. I said exactly the opposite, namely the nuclear weapons existed at the time of the Kargil operation but they did not prevent Musharraf's adventurism.

Re. your shopkeeper's analogy, I never said that Musharraf did the right thing in removing the duly elected prime minister. But what he did after he came to power is something else. To give an analogy (please read twice to ensure you dont misinterpret), while I am unhappy that Muslim\ conquerors defeated my ancestors, I am quite willing to acknowlege the significant contributions made by Muslims to Indian heritage.

Muqaddam#36:

"As for the so called change in Musharraf's policy toward India, it is in fact the humiliating withdrawal of Pak troops from Kargil heights convinced him that he cannot mess with India."

I believe that the change came much later; as late as July 2001, he was quite adamant in his position during the Agra summit.

zeemax#35:

I agree.

Re. Frontier Corps, I found it only from pav's posts. I wonder how come the US does not know about it? If their intelligence network in Pakistan is so inept, how can they ever hope to find OBL or anyone else they want to find?

jayp#34:

"There can be no ondo-pak raproachment untill and unless the notion of TNt is removed from the pak mind set. Mushy did nothing to change the k for kafir education of the pak govt schools, during his time the madrassas flourished."

Well, there is as yet no removal of the tnt from the Pakistani mindset, although some people are beginning to more closely examine the costs and benefits of creating the new nation. From what I recall, Mush's education minister did ask for the revision of text books to make changes in some hateful passages.

DM ji, #52 is very well argued, but still, somehow I feel, you will get a lot of 'beating up' on this thread, and all of it thoroughly well-deserved :)

India's saving grace is the rise of South India, where people don't have hangups like you do (or partly I do too) - always chasing a non-existent bird.

We just have a find a way to pass the political baton in their hands, so we as a people can focus on things we need to focus on. Best.

sadna#32:

Yes, I was very personally affected by my friend's assasination; I am still a friend of the family and am planning to meet the widow again tomorrow.

But I do not believe that my personal tragedy should make me lose sight of the overall reality; the need to reduce more useless deaths of innocent people and, in case of Pakistan, this would happen if there is no support for jihadi activities directed at India and Indians which, in turn, would happen if Pakistanis do not consider India to be their enemy. From what I see, this is happening more and more and jihad against India is losing its supporters in Pakistan.

It is not my position that this trend is irreversible but the more we can expand the India-friendly constituency in Pakistan, the more difficult it will become for the ruling elite to reignite the old hostile passions.

ananth:

Yes, better communications do play a role and there is no better communication than people to people contact.

#26 Posted by dost_mittar

“Self-determination, I believe, was held only in the frontier province and some districts of Assam.�

It is hard to discuss political issues with people whose political understanding is based on what they read in daily Newspapers. There is so much available on the net now that if you don’t understand a political terminology, you can always Google it and learn at least something about it.

What happened in NWFP and Assam was not Self-determination. It is called referendum or plebiscite on issue.

Here is an explanation from wiki:
“Self determination is a principle, often seen as a moral and legal right, that "all peoples have the right [to] freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development."

Dear tahmed,

It perhaps is true that Indians are pissed off at Pakistan becomming a different country, but I have difficulty in buying this hypothesis. At least as far is today's India is concerned.

Today's India has in it two different countries in it complete with their own laws (or lack thereof), culture, fetishes etc. These countries belong to the 'haves' and 'have-nots'. The former, are at a loss when they see the 'have-nots' create trouble. After all they made it by working hard! Now some of the have nots who are creating "trouble" (or provide cannon-fodder for trouble) happen to be Muslims and are to some extent supported by the Pakistani state and cheered on by some Pakistani people. This gets the goat of the "haves" ... and you see them rave and rant in chowk.

The actual trouble brewing in India has very little to do with Pakistan (of course the Pakistani state will gladly egg this on if it can). Just keep track of wahst the Naxals are doing and what is being done to them (and the people who live in these regions). The fun is just starting in India.

D-M sahib,

1. What does "thaw" in India-Pakistan relationship mean? I do not see any dip in the "trend" of Pakistan aided terrorism in India. The key-word is trend, minor fluctuations around the trend can be caused as much by weather as the Pakistani dictator.

2. People to people contact are mostly confined to a small set of North Indians. This is positive no doubt (Yuvraj's father considers Afridi a part of his family). But let us not blow this up.

3. Democratically elected Pakistani leaders will back "freedom-fighters" in India just as democratically elected Indian leaders will provide covert support to Baluchis and perhaps even Taliban (this I am just guessing). This will go on as long as domestic "groups" become economically and politically better off, in their respective countries, due to such "interference". Of course, the cannon-fodder will be provided by the easily manipulable "unwashed".

4. In short, Indians will not be worse off without the Pakistani dictator. Pakistanis sure will. So it is a Pareto improvement. (Point 4. is not a comment on your article, it is just my opinion).

DM,

The peace process would have happened with or without Musharaff. The idea that two nuclear armed neighbors
should pursue war is not logical. Nobobdy would win!
Peace is the only way to go.
The Kashmir issue is taking a rest. But it will return
unless a lasting solution is found.

Ras

DM,

Your analysis is quite accurate. There were several factors responsible for the Indo-Pak thaw in the past few years. India's booming economy and domination of the knowledge economy has been a huge factor in changing pak mindset about India. It is now looked at favorably as a place to do business and make money. Secondly the nukes on both sides made any warfare, including covert warfare, meaningless. It was just a waste of resources with no chance of a return on investment. Thirdly the WOT had changed things upside down in Pakistan with the jihadis becoming a target rather than a parter of the pak elite.

Lastly, every feud has a life cycle. If the feud is unable to continue with tit for tat attacks, it dies out a natural death. Absence makes the heart grow fonder. Now that India-Pak are in no position to harm each other militarily, the feud had no future. OTOH, after 60 years, people were tired of the same old thing and wanted a change.

However, all said and done, Musharraf did the right thing and he deserves the credit. There is no two ways about it. Would someone else have done the same? I doubt it. No civilian PM could have talked about moving away from UN resolutions on Kashmir. So Musharraf has contributed to Indo-Pak peace more than any other Pak leader to date.

No question that Musharraf has allowed some positive things to happen...he deserves credit at least for not getting in the way...

But I am much less hopeful about the future. Pakistan has a 60 year history of being for "rent" by the highest bidder. Whoever will pay the elite class, will get the country to follow them.

So at various times it has been rented by USA, Saudi Arabia and China. Odd though this is, most pakistanis seem to view this with pride and not with shame. I assume this has to do with some psychological need to be "equal" to india - the means employed and lack of dignity dont seem to matter.

So why would this change? For example, Saudi Arabia is now sitting on trillions of $ and it would be happy to have 100 million wahhabi fanatics - and the pakis would be happy to oblige and in fact have more or less eliminted their traditional indic/sufi/syncretic islam for this money. For example, declaring the shia non-muslim alone could lead to 10-20 billions in payment and I know this has already been hinted at.

I think the last few years are an aberration in that no paymaster was available for pakistan other than the US and, post 9/11 the US finally realized that its "allies" had something to do with 3000 dead in NYC. But that period is finite and is probably ending anyway...

#22 Posted by HP on February 25, 2008 9:08:28 pm


Otoh, give me one election in India since the partition when Pakistan was not an issue in that election.


Umm..the price of onions are more of an issue in India than pakiland...

What is typical Brahmin arrogance? I am a Brahmin and I don't remember seeing a Brahmin more arrogant than anyone else. You must have met more Brahmin samples than I as one have met all my life.


I think he was referring to the "harimau" types. of the "old Brahmin" school. I should admit that I have not seen any peculiar trait of arrogance with Brahmins (mostly young) that I have not seen in others.

Chowk is an excellent example. It has the ability to take the most gungho of the "lets sing kumbaye" South Asian types in Pakistan and turn them extremely anti-Indian.


This is true.

But I think the "initial feeling" was based on romantic notions after watching a few "Bollywood movies" and not based on facts or truth.

The more you learn the truth, the more you can appreciate why the "animosity" exists and there are very good reasons for maintaining that "animosity".

#40 by tahmed32

What is typical Brahmin arrogance? I am a Brahmin and I don't remember seeing a Brahmin more arrogant than anyone else. You must have met more Brahmin samples than I as one have met all my life.

#21 dost mittar: if you are going to a business lunch with the shopkeeper next to your shop, and your employee tells you he plans to break into that shopkeepers shop while you are having lunch - would you still see any sense in having a business lunch?

Replace yourself with NS, the shopkeeper next door with Vajpayee, and the employee with Musharraf and you will see the absurdity you think happened.


As for your saying Kargill happened before the 1998 explosions - instead of my correcting you here I suggest you simply google to correct this impression. The sequence of events (as I have been repeating once in a while to jog Indian memories) was this:

1. BJP tries to bully Pakistan by conducting 5 nuclear explosions on its doorstep, followed up with threats from Advani saying this changes the picture on Kashmir. In typical brahmin arrogance, BJP assumes Pakistan cannot do what India has done (i.e. develop nuclear technology, even though it has been around for decades).

2. Pakistan knocks Advani out of his lungi by giving India a "fitting response".

3. Indians discover the virtues of peace with Pakistan - Advani comes running to Pakistan and assures Pakistanis that Pakistan is a reality (as if Allah Ditta ricksha driver of Lahore really cares what vajpayee thinks). Nawaz Sharif graciously acknowledges Vajpayees return to reality and proceeds to meet him.

5. In the meantime, India's gift to Pakistan (Musharraf), figures peace with India will sideline the military. After all, who needs a large standing army if you have already gotten rid of your worst enemy by making him your friend?

6. Musharraf attacks Kargill, thus outsmarting Nawaz Sharif and Vajpayee and sabotaging the peace process (and getting hundreds of brave soldiers killed).

Hope this clarifies where I am coming from. Dont mind the bit of Pakistani chauvinism tossed in (for the benefit of some of your countrymen to help feed their spite for Pakistan). ;-)

PS I was up late last night indeed.

Now with the elections and the installation of a civilian govt, there will be unified command for the army and the jihadis. What we saw today is the last attack on the army, here after it will be on the ministers and civilians.

The elections are bad news for india and afghanistan, the jihadis are going to get a free reign.

The rationale for the Kargill war is in his first address to the paki nation. He declared that the accords with India are not worth the paper it is written on. Only thing that changed was India amassing troops on pak border.

Mushy is a confirmed war monger.

He stopped the operations in waziristan only when 200 of apki troops were captured, and then he negotiated a peace deal with the jihadis. Mushy knows only the language of the bullets.

jayp makes an important point. Under Musharraf, war for Pakistani Army has become jihadized. It was already headed that way before Musharraf came to power but with Kargil consolidated the jihadization. In earlier wars, it was two professional armies fighting each other and appreciating the other side's bravery and valour at the same time(whatever the rhetoric of war).

During Kargil the Pak Army showed that it has no compunction in mutilating and dishonoring enemy soldiers and in fighting alongside civilian jihadis who do the same to unarmed civilians and follow no professional code of fighting except absolute violence in the name of religion.

The struggle for independence of India was a movement encompassing the whole subcontinent and it produced an entire generation of leaders, who could steer the country in its nascent stage. So, even when Gandhi was no more on the scene, India continued with Nehru and other political leaders who had been well groomed to provide solid leadership.
On the other hand, after MAJ there was no dynamic leader who could rise to lead Pakistan, and the chaotic situation that followed gave Ayub Khan the opportunity to meddle in governance of Pakistan. The military which had tasted blood would not like to leave the political scene. Musharraf's take over of power is just another chapter in the military dominated political life of Pakistan. He is just a person of ordinary intellect ( although he has good linguistic skills which, despite his being a Muhajir, enable him to speak Urdu in Punjabi accent in front of the troops)who derived his power from the army of which he was commander. All generals in Pak army think that they can rule Pakistan better than the civilians.
Until this is corrected and the rudder is firmly in civil hands, Pakistan will not be able to make progress as a democracy.

In fact, had ZAB been strong enough, he should have put the army firmly in the barracks particularly after the humiliating defeat of 1971 which dismembered Pakistan.

As for the so called change in Musharraf's policy toward India, it is in fact the humiliating withdrawal of Pak troops from Kargil heights convinced him that he cannot mess with India. So the next best option was to make friendly overtures. Mind you, his position on Kashmir is only accepta