An Unnecessary Interview with History
Amer Nazir February 25, 2008
#38 Posted by Skeptical on April 3, 2008 9:47:21 pm
I really do not know why the author of this article is being critisized so much..
For all those who think that we should not "humilate" a sitting president....just see the international and local media...they are all critisizing him...
Regarding this argument that politicians have been corrupt whereas Musharraf is a better choice,
I am pasting an article written by an Indian....kindly see it...it does make a very strong case…its an outsider’s view which demonstrates as to why there is a difference in fortunes between two countries…
Junta versus Janata by Shekhar Gupta, The Indian Express
Published on January 21, 2008
The Indian politician bumbles, the Pakistani general strides purposefully in his natty suits. Guess who keeps his country stable. Pakistanis surely coin more colourful political slogan than us. They are also less subtle. So, the next time you see visuals of a PPP protest rally on your TV screens following Benazir¡¦s assassination, strain your ears a bit to catch a most telling slogan: Amreeka ne kutta paala, vardi waala, vardi waala. It would lose much flavour in transliteration, but the meaning would not be lost on even a non-Hindi speaker. Now when was the last time you had the army called a dog, and that too an American poodle, on Pakistan¡¦s streets? And this is a Pakistan under an almighty (lately, former) general who has the power to declare and suspend emergency in televised speeches, the power to make 36 (or thereabouts) amendments in his ¡§constitution¡¨ at a press conference, and whose ability to take the biggest decisions on the spot is the envy, often, of the Indian politician, and has been a cause for admiration among India¡¦s chattering classes.
How many times, since he came on his first visit for the Agra summit, have we heard fellow Indians, including serious, knowledgeable people, talk of him with a sense of awe? See, how confident he looks, how well he speaks, the swagger, so impressive, knows his mind, is so fit and energetic, so much in control, so macho, can-do and so on. The sub-text was, view this is total contrast with our own political class: overweight, badly dressed, clumsy, evasive in their answers, indecisive, inarticulate and, horror of horrors, not even able to speak any English.
And then came Shaukat Aziz, on secondment from Citibank. So smart, articulate, in his smartly cut suits, blah, blah and blah. And what kind of people did we have holding the same job in India? Gowda, who slept in Parliament. Vajpayee, who never seems to answer any question. Gujral who only uttered diplomatic platitudes that meant nothing. And Narasimha Rao, who mostly pretended he had not even heard the question.
Now let me tell you a few stories. Not necessarily connected either by timing or context, but yielding an interesting conclusion, nevertheless.
¡E One of the great untold stories of the Agra summit is how challenging it was for both Vajpayee and Musharraf to deal with each other. One thought he had the answer even before a question had been asked. The other would think for ever, and often tire out his interlocutor. Apparently at one of the mid-day review sessions Musharraf shared his exasperation with his aides. He said something like, I know you guys told me he takes time responding to anything, but how do I deal with somebody who takes so long and then says nothing? A bit like John McEnroe tossing his racket in exasperation while playing Ramesh Krishnan and screaming: how do I play this guy? He serves at five miles per hour!
One of his aides tried to suggest that Vajpayee takes so long because he is processing Musharraf¡¦s question in his wise, old head. Musharraf was still irritated and somebody senior in his inner council said, with humour laced with disdain: to unka processor Pentium nahin, 286 hoga (then his processor must be a 286, not a Pentium).
¡E Now listen to the story from the other end. What exasperated Vajpayee most of all was Musharraf¡¦s cocky ¡§decisiveness¡¨. ¡§You are the prime minister, I am the president, if we agree on something, let¡¦s sign,¡¨ he would say, while at the same time making changes on the draft of a likely agreement and asking Vajpayee to okay it. He simply wouldn¡¦t buy Vajpayee¡¦s argument that he had a cabinet to go back to. ¡§Par aap prime minister hain. Aap faisla keejiye (but you are the prime minister, you decide),¡¨ Musharraf would say. So when Vajpayee briefed his aides and fellow members of the Cabinet Committee on Security (who, barring George Fernandes, were in Agra), he said about his counterpart pretty much the opposite of what he said of him: ¡§He is in such a hurry. Kuchch sochne ko taiyyar nahin hain. Sub kuch faisala abhi chahte hain, kaise samjhaoon bhai.¡¨ Or words to that effect.
¡E In the main lounge of the Congress Centre at Davos, Switzerland, where all kinds from heads of state to global corporate leaders to rock stars to ordinary journalists congregate and rub shoulders during the World Economic Forum January meeting, I found my old friend, Pakistani journalist, part-time politician, now a full-time exile, Boston University professor and also an Indian Express columnist, Husain Haqqani. As we exchanged gossip, Shaukat Aziz walked past, accompanied by a couple of minders, perfectly cut suit, pompous, smug smile and all. Just that morning he had lectured many of us senior editors over breakfast, laying down the law for India: nothing would move, the gas pipeline, even the permission to Indian private airlines to fly to Pakistan unless the ¡§core¡¨ issue was addressed. Again there was some admiration for his confidence and clarity even among the Indian contingent as he was ¡§so unlike our bumbling politicians¡¨.
Haqqani¡¦s eyes were now lit up with mischief. He pointed his finger directly at Aziz and said: ¡§You know what they say, Davos is the Disneyland of the mind. If that be so, there goes its Mickey Mouse.¡¨
How have the relative fortunes of the two competing kinds of leaderships and nations under their charge evolved over these seven years? Musharraf now looks bumbling and unconvincing, an international joke, a pitiable, forlorn figure, hated by his countrymen, distrusted by the world and mentioned dismissively even by Barack Obama. Shaukat Aziz has disappeared from the scene, even losing out to an ordinary mortal ¡X coincidentally from India ¡X for the top job in his alma mater, Citi. Their country is a mess, their own army, for the first time, is seeing its credibility, power, its pre-eminent position in Pakistan¡¦s society and power structure questioned. Its political class is decimated, its institutions fatally wounded. How do people as proud as the Pakistanis feel when their dictator offers to salvage his credibility by summoning the Scotland Yard to investigate the assassination of their most prominent political leader? Nobody believes their election commission¡¦s intentions, motives or judgment in postponing their election.
Vajpayee, on the other hand, sits at home, having lost power in an election, not in the pink of health, but satisfied at the way his country is moving. His successor, from the opposite side of the political fence, even comes to wish him on his birthday. His country has meanwhile had many more state elections and another general election within a year or so will give his successors in his own party another crack at power. Now, think, who finally won. The indecisive, inarticulate, ineffective slob who did not seem to have an answer to anything, or the macho, confident, smart, decisive, modern smartie who seemed to have an answer to everything?
There are many interesting, and important conclusions to be drawn from this complex argument. But the most significant is this: a modern nation needs democracy and so it needs its politicians, however clumsy, corrupt, effete and power-crazed they may be. Because a military dictator can also be all of these things. The difference is, the political leader draws his power from the democratic process, so he has a stake in preserving that system, howsoever cynical he may be. The general draws his power by throttling the democratic system and its institutions and you can see the results of that in Pakistan. So, in a democracy, howsoever powerful a Lalu or Mayawati, they have to shut up and listen when the Supreme Court speaks. The election commission can publicly upbraid both Sonia Gandhi and Narendra Modi. We, the media, can question and curse who we want. It happens because the political class has the biggest stake in the democratic process, howsoever much it may wish to manipulate it. In contrast, a military dictator owes his power to the absence of institutions, of checks and balances. That is exactly what Musharraf has done to his judiciary, the election commission and even the media. That is why he has to summon the Scotland Yard to investigate Benazir¡¦s assassination.
For all those who think that we should not "humilate" a sitting president....just see the international and local media...they are all critisizing him...
Regarding this argument that politicians have been corrupt whereas Musharraf is a better choice,
I am pasting an article written by an Indian....kindly see it...it does make a very strong case…its an outsider’s view which demonstrates as to why there is a difference in fortunes between two countries…
Junta versus Janata by Shekhar Gupta, The Indian Express
Published on January 21, 2008
The Indian politician bumbles, the Pakistani general strides purposefully in his natty suits. Guess who keeps his country stable. Pakistanis surely coin more colourful political slogan than us. They are also less subtle. So, the next time you see visuals of a PPP protest rally on your TV screens following Benazir¡¦s assassination, strain your ears a bit to catch a most telling slogan: Amreeka ne kutta paala, vardi waala, vardi waala. It would lose much flavour in transliteration, but the meaning would not be lost on even a non-Hindi speaker. Now when was the last time you had the army called a dog, and that too an American poodle, on Pakistan¡¦s streets? And this is a Pakistan under an almighty (lately, former) general who has the power to declare and suspend emergency in televised speeches, the power to make 36 (or thereabouts) amendments in his ¡§constitution¡¨ at a press conference, and whose ability to take the biggest decisions on the spot is the envy, often, of the Indian politician, and has been a cause for admiration among India¡¦s chattering classes.
How many times, since he came on his first visit for the Agra summit, have we heard fellow Indians, including serious, knowledgeable people, talk of him with a sense of awe? See, how confident he looks, how well he speaks, the swagger, so impressive, knows his mind, is so fit and energetic, so much in control, so macho, can-do and so on. The sub-text was, view this is total contrast with our own political class: overweight, badly dressed, clumsy, evasive in their answers, indecisive, inarticulate and, horror of horrors, not even able to speak any English.
And then came Shaukat Aziz, on secondment from Citibank. So smart, articulate, in his smartly cut suits, blah, blah and blah. And what kind of people did we have holding the same job in India? Gowda, who slept in Parliament. Vajpayee, who never seems to answer any question. Gujral who only uttered diplomatic platitudes that meant nothing. And Narasimha Rao, who mostly pretended he had not even heard the question.
Now let me tell you a few stories. Not necessarily connected either by timing or context, but yielding an interesting conclusion, nevertheless.
¡E One of the great untold stories of the Agra summit is how challenging it was for both Vajpayee and Musharraf to deal with each other. One thought he had the answer even before a question had been asked. The other would think for ever, and often tire out his interlocutor. Apparently at one of the mid-day review sessions Musharraf shared his exasperation with his aides. He said something like, I know you guys told me he takes time responding to anything, but how do I deal with somebody who takes so long and then says nothing? A bit like John McEnroe tossing his racket in exasperation while playing Ramesh Krishnan and screaming: how do I play this guy? He serves at five miles per hour!
One of his aides tried to suggest that Vajpayee takes so long because he is processing Musharraf¡¦s question in his wise, old head. Musharraf was still irritated and somebody senior in his inner council said, with humour laced with disdain: to unka processor Pentium nahin, 286 hoga (then his processor must be a 286, not a Pentium).
¡E Now listen to the story from the other end. What exasperated Vajpayee most of all was Musharraf¡¦s cocky ¡§decisiveness¡¨. ¡§You are the prime minister, I am the president, if we agree on something, let¡¦s sign,¡¨ he would say, while at the same time making changes on the draft of a likely agreement and asking Vajpayee to okay it. He simply wouldn¡¦t buy Vajpayee¡¦s argument that he had a cabinet to go back to. ¡§Par aap prime minister hain. Aap faisla keejiye (but you are the prime minister, you decide),¡¨ Musharraf would say. So when Vajpayee briefed his aides and fellow members of the Cabinet Committee on Security (who, barring George Fernandes, were in Agra), he said about his counterpart pretty much the opposite of what he said of him: ¡§He is in such a hurry. Kuchch sochne ko taiyyar nahin hain. Sub kuch faisala abhi chahte hain, kaise samjhaoon bhai.¡¨ Or words to that effect.
¡E In the main lounge of the Congress Centre at Davos, Switzerland, where all kinds from heads of state to global corporate leaders to rock stars to ordinary journalists congregate and rub shoulders during the World Economic Forum January meeting, I found my old friend, Pakistani journalist, part-time politician, now a full-time exile, Boston University professor and also an Indian Express columnist, Husain Haqqani. As we exchanged gossip, Shaukat Aziz walked past, accompanied by a couple of minders, perfectly cut suit, pompous, smug smile and all. Just that morning he had lectured many of us senior editors over breakfast, laying down the law for India: nothing would move, the gas pipeline, even the permission to Indian private airlines to fly to Pakistan unless the ¡§core¡¨ issue was addressed. Again there was some admiration for his confidence and clarity even among the Indian contingent as he was ¡§so unlike our bumbling politicians¡¨.
Haqqani¡¦s eyes were now lit up with mischief. He pointed his finger directly at Aziz and said: ¡§You know what they say, Davos is the Disneyland of the mind. If that be so, there goes its Mickey Mouse.¡¨
How have the relative fortunes of the two competing kinds of leaderships and nations under their charge evolved over these seven years? Musharraf now looks bumbling and unconvincing, an international joke, a pitiable, forlorn figure, hated by his countrymen, distrusted by the world and mentioned dismissively even by Barack Obama. Shaukat Aziz has disappeared from the scene, even losing out to an ordinary mortal ¡X coincidentally from India ¡X for the top job in his alma mater, Citi. Their country is a mess, their own army, for the first time, is seeing its credibility, power, its pre-eminent position in Pakistan¡¦s society and power structure questioned. Its political class is decimated, its institutions fatally wounded. How do people as proud as the Pakistanis feel when their dictator offers to salvage his credibility by summoning the Scotland Yard to investigate the assassination of their most prominent political leader? Nobody believes their election commission¡¦s intentions, motives or judgment in postponing their election.
Vajpayee, on the other hand, sits at home, having lost power in an election, not in the pink of health, but satisfied at the way his country is moving. His successor, from the opposite side of the political fence, even comes to wish him on his birthday. His country has meanwhile had many more state elections and another general election within a year or so will give his successors in his own party another crack at power. Now, think, who finally won. The indecisive, inarticulate, ineffective slob who did not seem to have an answer to anything, or the macho, confident, smart, decisive, modern smartie who seemed to have an answer to everything?
There are many interesting, and important conclusions to be drawn from this complex argument. But the most significant is this: a modern nation needs democracy and so it needs its politicians, however clumsy, corrupt, effete and power-crazed they may be. Because a military dictator can also be all of these things. The difference is, the political leader draws his power from the democratic process, so he has a stake in preserving that system, howsoever cynical he may be. The general draws his power by throttling the democratic system and its institutions and you can see the results of that in Pakistan. So, in a democracy, howsoever powerful a Lalu or Mayawati, they have to shut up and listen when the Supreme Court speaks. The election commission can publicly upbraid both Sonia Gandhi and Narendra Modi. We, the media, can question and curse who we want. It happens because the political class has the biggest stake in the democratic process, howsoever much it may wish to manipulate it. In contrast, a military dictator owes his power to the absence of institutions, of checks and balances. That is exactly what Musharraf has done to his judiciary, the election commission and even the media. That is why he has to summon the Scotland Yard to investigate Benazir¡¦s assassination.
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#37 Posted by econfused on April 2, 2008 5:24:19 pm
Re #36
So I hit the nerve :), Go and check the discussion threads, I have been equally defending PPP. My original support is for Lawyers movement. You on the other hand just a produce of DICTATOR .
So I hit the nerve :), Go and check the discussion threads, I have been equally defending PPP. My original support is for Lawyers movement. You on the other hand just a produce of DICTATOR .
#36 Posted by MeraPakistan on April 2, 2008 5:44:46 am
Re: # 34
You said, that you dont support Ganja NS... I was on pkpolitics.com and I saw lot of your comments in favour of your lord Bhagora, which proves that you are BeySharam Liar on top of NS DumChalla and I dont like to communicate with people like you. Ciao
You said, that you dont support Ganja NS... I was on pkpolitics.com and I saw lot of your comments in favour of your lord Bhagora, which proves that you are BeySharam Liar on top of NS DumChalla and I dont like to communicate with people like you. Ciao
#35 Posted by econfused on March 28, 2008 1:12:17 pm
Re #33
"Country's Stability" or My Job First err. Pakistan First
"Country's Stability" or My Job First err. Pakistan First
#34 Posted by econfused on March 28, 2008 1:09:42 pm
Re #33
You can keep on bashing NS. I am glad dark era is over and we are back toward democracy with a parliament. You can keep your assumption that my vote was for NS :) as long as it hurts you.
Your beloved Musharraf said "In the Line of Fire", that there were Mujahidins :). While you are saying those were soldiers.
Well we do need commission to get the facts right.
Next coup has to wait for another 10 years. So keep trying :)
You can keep on bashing NS. I am glad dark era is over and we are back toward democracy with a parliament. You can keep your assumption that my vote was for NS :) as long as it hurts you.
Your beloved Musharraf said "In the Line of Fire", that there were Mujahidins :). While you are saying those were soldiers.
Well we do need commission to get the facts right.
Next coup has to wait for another 10 years. So keep trying :)
#33 Posted by MeraPakistan on March 28, 2008 11:05:09 am
Electrnically Confused,
WOW, 3 post in response to my comment !!! I guess, my words have lot of Penetration...the same they say about TRUTH.
Your lord, Nawaz Sharif is totally bent upon taking revenge from Musharraf at the cost of this country’s stability. He is the only one bragging about the judiciary because he knows he cannot deliver, he cant cut prices, construct dams or do anything for the common man.
He said that after the election he is going to make all possible efforts for the release A.Q Khan, but no one has heard any single statement from NS on this issue. NS was only screaming on these issues just to get the votes, but now he is in power, he would do nothing at all and we will see him busy in looting the treasury and over filling his bank accounts.
He goes to an Indian channel and talks about the setting up of a Kargil Commission. How low can you get? Your soldiers died in that battle while you were in the warmth of the White House. I wonder what NawazSharif has to say about the setting up of a commission to probe into the ‘karz utaro mulk sawaro’ funds, the plans of buying hundreds of acres of land up north with Indian companies to extract profits from mineral resources, the attack on Chief Justice Sajjad Ali Shah etc.?
Following are some of the Kartoots of your lord NS written by the same columnist, but these facts can be confirmed by googling the similar articles on this topic.
http://www.chowk.com/articles/4329 (Human Rights Groups Slam Nawaz Sharif)
http://www.chowk.com/articles/4363 (What Price Sharif Propaganda?)
http://www.chowk.com/articles/4430 (Pressure on Press from NS)
http://www.chowk.com/articles/4445 (Najam Sethi Kidnapped by NS)
If you still go in support of this Bhagora, then I would assume that, communicating with you is like banging head on the concrete wall.
WOW, 3 post in response to my comment !!! I guess, my words have lot of Penetration...the same they say about TRUTH.
Your lord, Nawaz Sharif is totally bent upon taking revenge from Musharraf at the cost of this country’s stability. He is the only one bragging about the judiciary because he knows he cannot deliver, he cant cut prices, construct dams or do anything for the common man.
He said that after the election he is going to make all possible efforts for the release A.Q Khan, but no one has heard any single statement from NS on this issue. NS was only screaming on these issues just to get the votes, but now he is in power, he would do nothing at all and we will see him busy in looting the treasury and over filling his bank accounts.
He goes to an Indian channel and talks about the setting up of a Kargil Commission. How low can you get? Your soldiers died in that battle while you were in the warmth of the White House. I wonder what NawazSharif has to say about the setting up of a commission to probe into the ‘karz utaro mulk sawaro’ funds, the plans of buying hundreds of acres of land up north with Indian companies to extract profits from mineral resources, the attack on Chief Justice Sajjad Ali Shah etc.?
Following are some of the Kartoots of your lord NS written by the same columnist, but these facts can be confirmed by googling the similar articles on this topic.
http://www.chowk.com/articles/4329 (Human Rights Groups Slam Nawaz Sharif)
http://www.chowk.com/articles/4363 (What Price Sharif Propaganda?)
http://www.chowk.com/articles/4430 (Pressure on Press from NS)
http://www.chowk.com/articles/4445 (Najam Sethi Kidnapped by NS)
If you still go in support of this Bhagora, then I would assume that, communicating with you is like banging head on the concrete wall.
#32 Posted by econfused on March 26, 2008 4:48:59 pm
Re #MeraPakistan
Following is your own sentence from #27. So prove, as your link for Shah, its HIS word against NS. He is only ex. CJ who is ok with Dictator's actions.
"There are videos on which it is shown that NS along with his cronies attacked supreme court and you are denying the facts."
Following is your own sentence from #27. So prove, as your link for Shah, its HIS word against NS. He is only ex. CJ who is ok with Dictator's actions.
"There are videos on which it is shown that NS along with his cronies attacked supreme court and you are denying the facts."
#31 Posted by econfused on March 26, 2008 4:40:14 pm
Re #29
Load of crap: DOCTRINE OF NECESSITY? is that a real law? Dictator was saving his job and not the country. First he he has to kick government out, and now to save job, he packed the judiciary. The guy will stop at nothing to save his job.
"Justice Sajjad Ali Shah: On the principle of doctrine of necessity, I think the changes in government can be justified. If there is no other alternative, no other way out, and this is the only solution available, then I think it is better to save the country, save the system then not."
Load of crap: DOCTRINE OF NECESSITY? is that a real law? Dictator was saving his job and not the country. First he he has to kick government out, and now to save job, he packed the judiciary. The guy will stop at nothing to save his job.
"Justice Sajjad Ali Shah: On the principle of doctrine of necessity, I think the changes in government can be justified. If there is no other alternative, no other way out, and this is the only solution available, then I think it is better to save the country, save the system then not."
#30 Posted by econfused on March 26, 2008 4:35:10 pm
Re #29
So again old excuses. You could not get the video, did you see my earlier post. It was a challenge, along with bet.
I firmly believe in democracy, so not voting is not an option. As there was NONE option on the ballot. Now absence of NONE does not automatically give you 55%.
As those cronies who attacked SC, they were part of thugs from 1999 to 2008.
My vote was for democracy and I am glad my voice is heard. You can wait for next coup :)
Till then, so long. Go lick your wounds!
So again old excuses. You could not get the video, did you see my earlier post. It was a challenge, along with bet.
I firmly believe in democracy, so not voting is not an option. As there was NONE option on the ballot. Now absence of NONE does not automatically give you 55%.
As those cronies who attacked SC, they were part of thugs from 1999 to 2008.
My vote was for democracy and I am glad my voice is heard. You can wait for next coup :)
Till then, so long. Go lick your wounds!
#29 Posted by MeraPakistan on March 26, 2008 11:58:23 am
Re: # 28
Sometime, you send your message across by not voting, or in other words, you are actually voting by not going to the polling station, you are voting against these corrupt and cheater politicians. But I guess, you didnot leave that choice for you.
There was 45% turn out in this election. So majority of people didnot vote, because they know that these thugs are not going to bring any good to Pakistan. Out of those 45%, almost 15% votes were taken by PPP, almost 8 percent votes were given to PML-Q and almost 7 percent votes to PML-N. Which shows that only 7% of Pakistani voters support this Bhagora.
NS didnot go by himself to attack supreme court, he has his cronies who attacked SC, in a similar way Geo Tv Station was attacked by Musharraf cronies.
It is an established fact that NS ordered the supreme court attacks. At NS times, there was only PTV, and still NS had to order attacks on SC, Dawn Karachi office etc.. Check the link and I hope you would not call this a lie.
http://www.paktoday.com/shah.htm
See how Democratic NS is, lol. Aap ki saadgi per sadkay jaawaan. :)
Sometime, you send your message across by not voting, or in other words, you are actually voting by not going to the polling station, you are voting against these corrupt and cheater politicians. But I guess, you didnot leave that choice for you.
There was 45% turn out in this election. So majority of people didnot vote, because they know that these thugs are not going to bring any good to Pakistan. Out of those 45%, almost 15% votes were taken by PPP, almost 8 percent votes were given to PML-Q and almost 7 percent votes to PML-N. Which shows that only 7% of Pakistani voters support this Bhagora.
NS didnot go by himself to attack supreme court, he has his cronies who attacked SC, in a similar way Geo Tv Station was attacked by Musharraf cronies.
It is an established fact that NS ordered the supreme court attacks. At NS times, there was only PTV, and still NS had to order attacks on SC, Dawn Karachi office etc.. Check the link and I hope you would not call this a lie.
http://www.paktoday.com/shah.htm
See how Democratic NS is, lol. Aap ki saadgi per sadkay jaawaan. :)
#28 Posted by econfused on March 26, 2008 6:08:01 am
Re: #27
I challenge you to post the video where NS was leading the attack. I bet you wont.
You also assumed I am a supporter of NS. I am a supporter of democracy. I am glad that political parties are back. As we cannot have angels on ballot, so I have to vote for the available bunch.
You are not for dictatorship :) RIGHT. I heard Musharraf is also for democracy.
I challenge you to post the video where NS was leading the attack. I bet you wont.
You also assumed I am a supporter of NS. I am a supporter of democracy. I am glad that political parties are back. As we cannot have angels on ballot, so I have to vote for the available bunch.
You are not for dictatorship :) RIGHT. I heard Musharraf is also for democracy.
#27 Posted by MeraPakistan on March 26, 2008 4:22:47 am
Re: # 26
Thats so naive of you that you presume that if I am against NS or Zardari, I am actually taking dictator side.
There are videos on which it is shown that NS along with his cronies attacked supreme court and you are denying the facts.
In my opinion they should not have let NS go on a deal. At that time, he was crying for his life as he couldnot even spend couple of days in the jail. First he was saying that there was no deal between him and Musharraf and then he accepted that the deal was for 5 yrs not 10 yrs. What is this, we all know that NS is one of the biggest liar in the history of Pakistani politics. SO I urge you to stop following your lords like a sheep, who dont think or question, they just follow the leader blindly.
Thats so naive of you that you presume that if I am against NS or Zardari, I am actually taking dictator side.
There are videos on which it is shown that NS along with his cronies attacked supreme court and you are denying the facts.
In my opinion they should not have let NS go on a deal. At that time, he was crying for his life as he couldnot even spend couple of days in the jail. First he was saying that there was no deal between him and Musharraf and then he accepted that the deal was for 5 yrs not 10 yrs. What is this, we all know that NS is one of the biggest liar in the history of Pakistani politics. SO I urge you to stop following your lords like a sheep, who dont think or question, they just follow the leader blindly.
#26 Posted by econfused on March 25, 2008 6:06:20 pm
Re #25
No, shame is on you, who prefer military dictators. NS did pass the legislation. Supreme court did not give verdict against NS in 2002 in court attack case. Go back check the facts.
Supreme court back then was trying to block the constitution amendment.
The saying of shame on you fits even more for Military supporters.
- Military Fooled you in 1958 - 1969
- Military Fooled you in 1977 - 1988
- Military Fooled you in 1999 - 2008
I am positive you haven't learned.
No, shame is on you, who prefer military dictators. NS did pass the legislation. Supreme court did not give verdict against NS in 2002 in court attack case. Go back check the facts.
Supreme court back then was trying to block the constitution amendment.
The saying of shame on you fits even more for Military supporters.
- Military Fooled you in 1958 - 1969
- Military Fooled you in 1977 - 1988
- Military Fooled you in 1999 - 2008
I am positive you haven't learned.
#25 Posted by MeraPakistan on March 25, 2008 10:50:15 am
Re: # 24
I dont want to be personal, but your nick says all about it.
If the parlianment is supreme then what is the need of attacking supreme court, NS could have passed the legislation with his so called 2/3 majority mandate. My point was that NS was doing the same thing during his tenure or may be worst what Musharraf did. NS along with PPP have been tried not one, not twice but 4 times and I can only say that,
If someone fools you once, shame on him
If someone fools you twice, Shame on you
and in NS and Zardari case, the poor awam has been bitten 4 times already.
I dont want to be personal, but your nick says all about it.
If the parlianment is supreme then what is the need of attacking supreme court, NS could have passed the legislation with his so called 2/3 majority mandate. My point was that NS was doing the same thing during his tenure or may be worst what Musharraf did. NS along with PPP have been tried not one, not twice but 4 times and I can only say that,
If someone fools you once, shame on him
If someone fools you twice, Shame on you
and in NS and Zardari case, the poor awam has been bitten 4 times already.
#24 Posted by econfused on March 25, 2008 9:08:15 am
Re #23
So instead of listening to speech of Khawaj Asif (which was the reference) you started to whine about pkpolitics. As far removal of Army chiefs and CJ, well if parliament is supreme the you have to live with that.
I am sure this Ganja Faqir along with Corrupt Zardari will give you a democracy. They are at this stage because of vote, not by barrel of gun.
So instead of listening to speech of Khawaj Asif (which was the reference) you started to whine about pkpolitics. As far removal of Army chiefs and CJ, well if parliament is supreme the you have to live with that.
I am sure this Ganja Faqir along with Corrupt Zardari will give you a democracy. They are at this stage because of vote, not by barrel of gun.
#23 Posted by MeraPakistan on March 24, 2008 11:59:23 am
Re: # 22
First of all pkpolitics.com is funded by chors like NS, and this site is totally biased, so please donot give reference to that website. I have personally visited the website, and have experienced that, if someone says against NS Bhagora, he is being labelled as MQM mafia or Musharraf lover and he gets banned from writing any more comments.
Secondly, izuber is right, when he says that why these brilliant people that you mentioned need to get under the umbrella of these political parties, which does not even have democracy within themselves and they believe in blood line and are still living in the time of "Jahiliat", and who select a 17 years old Drunkard, playboy Idiot to run the affairs of the largest party of the country because of the fake will.
This Ganja with Fake hair is talking about democracy and restoration of judges, when infact we all know that he was actually a bigger dictator than Musharraf. NS attacked supreme court, removed 2 general and a cheif justice. Now you would say that he came to office thru democracy? Do you really believe that fair elections have ever been held in Pakistan. NS won beacuse of the "Aashirvaad" from the establishment, and if you still believe that NS had mandate that Musharraf won the referendum as well with over 95% votes.
Wait for couple of months and you will see the true face of these politicians.
First of all pkpolitics.com is funded by chors like NS, and this site is totally biased, so please donot give reference to that website. I have personally visited the website, and have experienced that, if someone says against NS Bhagora, he is being labelled as MQM mafia or Musharraf lover and he gets banned from writing any more comments.
Secondly, izuber is right, when he says that why these brilliant people that you mentioned need to get under the umbrella of these political parties, which does not even have democracy within themselves and they believe in blood line and are still living in the time of "Jahiliat", and who select a 17 years old Drunkard, playboy Idiot to run the affairs of the largest party of the country because of the fake will.
This Ganja with Fake hair is talking about democracy and restoration of judges, when infact we all know that he was actually a bigger dictator than Musharraf. NS attacked supreme court, removed 2 general and a cheif justice. Now you would say that he came to office thru democracy? Do you really believe that fair elections have ever been held in Pakistan. NS won beacuse of the "Aashirvaad" from the establishment, and if you still believe that NS had mandate that Musharraf won the referendum as well with over 95% votes.
Wait for couple of months and you will see the true face of these politicians.
#22 Posted by econfused on March 20, 2008 7:17:10 am
@#21
Once again, your answer is more of the same "hoodlums". Question is what did we get from rule of Ayub, Zia and Musharraf?
The only thing these dictator has achieved is to project politicians as evil. They feel to achieve to take democracy out of these illiterate people.
If democracy is given a chance, peopler will drive these hoodlums out of this leadership role. We do not want any General to provide us this leadership.
You are trying to say generals or saints and not hoodlums? I would suggest making "Military Inc" as the textbook of country and Kh. Asif budget speech of 2006 as morning prayer in school assemblies.
http://pkpolitics.com/2008/03/15/khawaja-asif-budget-debate-20067 /
Once again, your answer is more of the same "hoodlums". Question is what did we get from rule of Ayub, Zia and Musharraf?
The only thing these dictator has achieved is to project politicians as evil. They feel to achieve to take democracy out of these illiterate people.
If democracy is given a chance, peopler will drive these hoodlums out of this leadership role. We do not want any General to provide us this leadership.
You are trying to say generals or saints and not hoodlums? I would suggest making "Military Inc" as the textbook of country and Kh. Asif budget speech of 2006 as morning prayer in school assemblies.
http://pkpolitics.com/2008/03/15/khawaja-asif-budget-debate-20067 /
#21 Posted by izuber on March 19, 2008 10:19:23 pm
@#20 Posted by econfused
------------------------
It is worth pondering as to why these career politicians place or accept themselves under the umbrellas of such corrupt leadership of Nawaz Not-So-Sharief, Asif Zardari & entourage and multiple others who have robbed the nation more than once.
Does this reflect a lack of leadership on part of these brilliants worthy of your praise?
-or-
In order to establish their brilliance they must acquire the aid of these hoodlums that are the robbers of Pakistan?
Why is it that such brilliants do not get out from underneath these fake umbrellas and benefit the country & it's people, since they are so loyal and sincere to Pakistan they should face much difficulty in establishing pure democracy.
If they don't send these so-called self imposed robbers back to their palaces in England, KSA & Dubai I am afraid we don't have much time on our hands to establish the mission of founding Pakistan while these robbers have now formed a consortium to go looting again.
Regards.
------------------------
It is worth pondering as to why these career politicians place or accept themselves under the umbrellas of such corrupt leadership of Nawaz Not-So-Sharief, Asif Zardari & entourage and multiple others who have robbed the nation more than once.
Does this reflect a lack of leadership on part of these brilliants worthy of your praise?
-or-
In order to establish their brilliance they must acquire the aid of these hoodlums that are the robbers of Pakistan?
Why is it that such brilliants do not get out from underneath these fake umbrellas and benefit the country & it's people, since they are so loyal and sincere to Pakistan they should face much difficulty in establishing pure democracy.
If they don't send these so-called self imposed robbers back to their palaces in England, KSA & Dubai I am afraid we don't have much time on our hands to establish the mission of founding Pakistan while these robbers have now formed a consortium to go looting again.
Regards.
#20 Posted by econfused on March 19, 2008 5:11:20 pm
I am amazed there are still so many "educated" readers (who by the way enjoy democracy) support a dictator. These guys just keep on bad mouthing politicians. For all these so called Musharraf/Army lovers should listen to Kh. Asif budget speech of 2006.
These people are willing to give corrupt generals decades, but aren't ready to give politicians a real chance?
President says there is no leadership in the country and when I see people like:
Javed Hashmi
Aitezaz Ahsan
Kh. Asif
Raza Rabani
Munir A Malik
and countless lawyers, one has to ask what kind of leadership general is looking for. Are we waiting for angels to come down? or we are waiting for Mahmood Ghaznavi? and Ayubi?
These people are willing to give corrupt generals decades, but aren't ready to give politicians a real chance?
President says there is no leadership in the country and when I see people like:
Javed Hashmi
Aitezaz Ahsan
Kh. Asif
Raza Rabani
Munir A Malik
and countless lawyers, one has to ask what kind of leadership general is looking for. Are we waiting for angels to come down? or we are waiting for Mahmood Ghaznavi? and Ayubi?
#19 Posted by izuber on March 18, 2008 3:14:33 pm
Oh well I hear you as to what you describe which is rather tormenting, however me being the grandson of the person who drafted Qaid e Azam into Muslim League.
I have had more than fair share of my ordeals in Pakistan as well but not at the hand of an Army it was under the rulership of the so-called "most popular leader & politician of Pakistan ZAB" without going into details I suffered at the hands of the Pakistani orientation of democracy and found my way to the west and have been dwelling here for the fourth decade.
I am not at all an intellectual of your level but I feel sure that those democratic rulers & their not so democratic cronies were concerned of what I knew as an eyewitness of various events that took place under those rulers in the 70's, further to which I stopped their rings (when & where I could by blocking such opportunities) that were flourishing on bribery in those days.
It doesn't end there when my children and wife visited Pakistan they were tormented by the immigration & customs officials the hand carry luggage of the children was stolen by the workers at the airport at the gateway of a "muslim" state while they were detained for hours at the airport without any valid reason and this took place during the rule of (Late) Gen. Zia Ul Haq, I wrote to him asking is this how we welcome our guests at the gateways of Pakistan and immediately received a response inquiring as to if we know who were the officials and what were their names.
During the same period as I completed an assignment in Saudi Arabia I also intended to taste the waters of Pakistan after a long time, however when I went to the Pakistani embassy in Riyadh, I was refused the visa to enter Pakistan, I inquired of the consular as to whom he reports to, so I can see the higher official and was told it is the ambassador, I walked in the then ambassador's office and saw Retd. Gen Amir Gulistan Janjua in a parrot color kurta shalwar and the colonial scarf, he inquired the purpose of my visit to him and after hearing me he stated "apka to koi taalaq nahin Pakistan say" and refused to grant the visa. I flew the next evening without a visa guaranteeing the carrier that I will bear return expenses if one is not granted at the airport and fortunately they agreed to carry me.
In one way or another the people who claim to own Pakistan continue to unfailingly torment Pakistanis not to mention they now consider Urdu speaking people not to be citizens of Pakistan.
But no matter what, the love for our homeland that lives deep down in our hearts and flows in our blood cannot be removed or decreased by these less than decent acts of some, and I am hopeful that inshaAllah the day will come when we will get rid of each and every politician existing at this time in Pakistan and start from a clean slate.
I have had more than fair share of my ordeals in Pakistan as well but not at the hand of an Army it was under the rulership of the so-called "most popular leader & politician of Pakistan ZAB" without going into details I suffered at the hands of the Pakistani orientation of democracy and found my way to the west and have been dwelling here for the fourth decade.
I am not at all an intellectual of your level but I feel sure that those democratic rulers & their not so democratic cronies were concerned of what I knew as an eyewitness of various events that took place under those rulers in the 70's, further to which I stopped their rings (when & where I could by blocking such opportunities) that were flourishing on bribery in those days.
It doesn't end there when my children and wife visited Pakistan they were tormented by the immigration & customs officials the hand carry luggage of the children was stolen by the workers at the airport at the gateway of a "muslim" state while they were detained for hours at the airport without any valid reason and this took place during the rule of (Late) Gen. Zia Ul Haq, I wrote to him asking is this how we welcome our guests at the gateways of Pakistan and immediately received a response inquiring as to if we know who were the officials and what were their names.
During the same period as I completed an assignment in Saudi Arabia I also intended to taste the waters of Pakistan after a long time, however when I went to the Pakistani embassy in Riyadh, I was refused the visa to enter Pakistan, I inquired of the consular as to whom he reports to, so I can see the higher official and was told it is the ambassador, I walked in the then ambassador's office and saw Retd. Gen Amir Gulistan Janjua in a parrot color kurta shalwar and the colonial scarf, he inquired the purpose of my visit to him and after hearing me he stated "apka to koi taalaq nahin Pakistan say" and refused to grant the visa. I flew the next evening without a visa guaranteeing the carrier that I will bear return expenses if one is not granted at the airport and fortunately they agreed to carry me.
In one way or another the people who claim to own Pakistan continue to unfailingly torment Pakistanis not to mention they now consider Urdu speaking people not to be citizens of Pakistan.
But no matter what, the love for our homeland that lives deep down in our hearts and flows in our blood cannot be removed or decreased by these less than decent acts of some, and I am hopeful that inshaAllah the day will come when we will get rid of each and every politician existing at this time in Pakistan and start from a clean slate.
#18 Posted by amernazir on March 18, 2008 1:30:42 pm
Re: # 17 No I dont take them personally - In fact I am extremely honoured...
I write fiction - it is all fabricated of course, I am sorry you dont like what I write, I will try to improve and write what you may want to read...! Though I dont promise.
On the personal front, what I write of course does evolve out of my personal experience and I yet again apologize for the same... Though if you are still interested in my personal self, then... I had established and managed the E-Tech Group of companies which included Hi-Tech Business Machines, Hinet Pak Pvt ltd(ISP) and Hilinks Pak Pvt ltd. The portal was called hilinks.com and the e-card was called the e-tech group e-card. The head office was in karachi with branch offices in Lahore and Islamabad.
Put my name in google or yahoo search and you will find articles on me by Ziauddin in dawn and Sarmad Bashir in the Nation. You will also find an open letter by me written to the President and the Chairman NAB asking them to make my case public... you may also find several years old interviews in magazines such as pakistan economics etc... and if you are still not sure about my identity... there is hardly anything I can do...
It is of course difficult as you know for a missing person to prove that he is missing and that he has been abducted by the state or for the honest to prove that he is not corrupt or for the nation to prove that they dont want musharraf or for the CJ to prove that he is not corrupt and for the lawyers to prove that the rule of law is being abused etc etc.. for all we know all they say may be hawai fires...
I write fiction - it is all fabricated of course, I am sorry you dont like what I write, I will try to improve and write what you may want to read...! Though I dont promise.
On the personal front, what I write of course does evolve out of my personal experience and I yet again apologize for the same... Though if you are still interested in my personal self, then... I had established and managed the E-Tech Group of companies which included Hi-Tech Business Machines, Hinet Pak Pvt ltd(ISP) and Hilinks Pak Pvt ltd. The portal was called hilinks.com and the e-card was called the e-tech group e-card. The head office was in karachi with branch offices in Lahore and Islamabad.
Put my name in google or yahoo search and you will find articles on me by Ziauddin in dawn and Sarmad Bashir in the Nation. You will also find an open letter by me written to the President and the Chairman NAB asking them to make my case public... you may also find several years old interviews in magazines such as pakistan economics etc... and if you are still not sure about my identity... there is hardly anything I can do...
It is of course difficult as you know for a missing person to prove that he is missing and that he has been abducted by the state or for the honest to prove that he is not corrupt or for the nation to prove that they dont want musharraf or for the CJ to prove that he is not corrupt and for the lawyers to prove that the rule of law is being abused etc etc.. for all we know all they say may be hawai fires...
#17 Posted by MeraPakistan on March 18, 2008 12:37:55 pm
Re: # 16
Mr AmerNazir
As i Have said earlier, you are still doing the "Hawai Fires". I asked you to give me some names of the companies you were running or the websites with your name on it that will prove that you were running those IT industries, but you smartly dodged those questions.
www.teeth.com.pk is another website that is funded by anti-Musharraf camp. You would have to come with something more to prove what you are writing is not fabricated. T
To me what you just wrote is a plethora of lies and you took the same approach while writing this article as well.
Chowk.com should do an independent research before letting these cheap kind of articles published and these articles should also have refernce material attached to it.
I hope you would not take these comments personally and will try to clear the air by providing some solid references.
Thanks
Mr AmerNazir
As i Have said earlier, you are still doing the "Hawai Fires". I asked you to give me some names of the companies you were running or the websites with your name on it that will prove that you were running those IT industries, but you smartly dodged those questions.
www.teeth.com.pk is another website that is funded by anti-Musharraf camp. You would have to come with something more to prove what you are writing is not fabricated. T
To me what you just wrote is a plethora of lies and you took the same approach while writing this article as well.
Chowk.com should do an independent research before letting these cheap kind of articles published and these articles should also have refernce material attached to it.
I hope you would not take these comments personally and will try to clear the air by providing some solid references.
Thanks
#16 Posted by amernazir on March 18, 2008 8:35:44 am
Re: # 13 I have never been in politics. I have studied in an army institution and know the army well. I dont know about you, but I have done my share for the country. I spent eighteen years to form and set-up one of the largest IT and e-commerce organisation in Pakistan that employed 250 personnel and contributed towards bringing Pakistan onto the internet map. And by the way, Musharraf gave me a trophy for my contributions towards IT in Pakistan that included introducing the first international portal from Pakistan, setting up a fibre optic based ISP and conducting the first B2B and B2C transactions in the country with the help of the first ever internet based financial instrument in Pakistan... (Read the NAB Diaries on www.teeth.com.pk)
Five years ago my organisation was taken over by some powerful people with the help of the chairman NAB Munir Hafeez. When I fought for justice, I was harrassed and tortured. My name was put on the Exit Control List for three years. I lost all my business, my money, and finally my country and they only allowed me to leave once they thought I had no heartbeat left...( I was never charged for anything, never taken to a court and everything was done illegally)
Inspite of being married to a British national I never applied for a foreign nationality and instead gave my wife the Pakistani nationality.... and you say that I have an inferiority complex...
When we had no shelter or food inspite of having earned millions, and were being barbarically persecuted by this same army,my wife returned to the UK alongwith our daughters after eighteen years and they were given support by the british government...
I could not meet my wife and daughters for three years due to the restrictions on me but finally when they allowed me to leave - I was then given protection by the British government as well on humanitarian grounds...
Since then all efforts for justice have failed. Read my letter asking for justice addressed to the president or else requesting him to close down NAB which is being used for personal gains(letter asking for the chairman NAB to either make my case public or to resign on teeth.com.pk.)
As far as I am concerned these injustices have to be highlighted to atleast save other people from the same fate - and which is happening on a daily basis...
Alternately, if you think that the generals dont make money, that musharraf has not made money then I dont have much to say to you... and if you think that portraying the facts is wrong - then do me a favour... write to the President and the army about this... if they say I am a liar... then I will surrender to them, willingly go to a jail for discrediting the office of our President... now, is this fair...?
Whether the politicians indulge in corruption or the army is the same for me - in either case the vices have to be brought to notice... The difference between me and people like you is that my first loyality is to the common man and then to the offices of the President. In the same way, I respect the pakistan army... but not a corrupt individual who occupies the office by force and the corrupt generals who prey on the civilians and the army jawans...
I am not an enemy of Pakistan my friend - it is ignorant people like you who do not understand that the ultimate power should be the common man, the free media and the free judiciary... that this is the way...
Your comments are unjustified. Kennedy did not abduct his people, killed them, or ruled like a dictator... he headed a democracy... and please instead of quoting ayats - refrain from telling a proud pakistani who is trying to point out the injustices done to a great nation by mediocre self-serving men. Have the courage to prove that accusations are wrong instead of telling people to accept injustice...
And please spare the nation this nonsense about the people deserving this kind of leadership. Have you any idea about how decent and honest people are surviving in the country run by corrupt leaders who rule with the help of corrupt laws because that is the only way to control and loot the nation....
Do not disrespect a hardworking nation...and dont tell me not to point out wrong... instead prove that I am wrong - that what I write is wrong... this article clearly points out that musharraf has no respect for democracy, judiciary or media as well as other institutions.
Not persuing democracy since the current politicians are corrupt sounds like stupidity to me. A defeatist attitude. Now that we have a civilian government and a much more mature nation - we will hold the politicians accountable as well God willing..
Five years ago my organisation was taken over by some powerful people with the help of the chairman NAB Munir Hafeez. When I fought for justice, I was harrassed and tortured. My name was put on the Exit Control List for three years. I lost all my business, my money, and finally my country and they only allowed me to leave once they thought I had no heartbeat left...( I was never charged for anything, never taken to a court and everything was done illegally)
Inspite of being married to a British national I never applied for a foreign nationality and instead gave my wife the Pakistani nationality.... and you say that I have an inferiority complex...
When we had no shelter or food inspite of having earned millions, and were being barbarically persecuted by this same army,my wife returned to the UK alongwith our daughters after eighteen years and they were given support by the british government...
I could not meet my wife and daughters for three years due to the restrictions on me but finally when they allowed me to leave - I was then given protection by the British government as well on humanitarian grounds...
Since then all efforts for justice have failed. Read my letter asking for justice addressed to the president or else requesting him to close down NAB which is being used for personal gains(letter asking for the chairman NAB to either make my case public or to resign on teeth.com.pk.)
As far as I am concerned these injustices have to be highlighted to atleast save other people from the same fate - and which is happening on a daily basis...
Alternately, if you think that the generals dont make money, that musharraf has not made money then I dont have much to say to you... and if you think that portraying the facts is wrong - then do me a favour... write to the President and the army about this... if they say I am a liar... then I will surrender to them, willingly go to a jail for discrediting the office of our President... now, is this fair...?
Whether the politicians indulge in corruption or the army is the same for me - in either case the vices have to be brought to notice... The difference between me and people like you is that my first loyality is to the common man and then to the offices of the President. In the same way, I respect the pakistan army... but not a corrupt individual who occupies the office by force and the corrupt generals who prey on the civilians and the army jawans...
I am not an enemy of Pakistan my friend - it is ignorant people like you who do not understand that the ultimate power should be the common man, the free media and the free judiciary... that this is the way...
Your comments are unjustified. Kennedy did not abduct his people, killed them, or ruled like a dictator... he headed a democracy... and please instead of quoting ayats - refrain from telling a proud pakistani who is trying to point out the injustices done to a great nation by mediocre self-serving men. Have the courage to prove that accusations are wrong instead of telling people to accept injustice...
And please spare the nation this nonsense about the people deserving this kind of leadership. Have you any idea about how decent and honest people are surviving in the country run by corrupt leaders who rule with the help of corrupt laws because that is the only way to control and loot the nation....
Do not disrespect a hardworking nation...and dont tell me not to point out wrong... instead prove that I am wrong - that what I write is wrong... this article clearly points out that musharraf has no respect for democracy, judiciary or media as well as other institutions.
Not persuing democracy since the current politicians are corrupt sounds like stupidity to me. A defeatist attitude. Now that we have a civilian government and a much more mature nation - we will hold the politicians accountable as well God willing..
#15 Posted by izuber on March 17, 2008 9:50:53 pm
An American president, John F Kennedy said at his inaugural speech: Ask not what your country can do for you, ask, what you can do for your country.
Ones actions/deeds are the reflections of their intentions(Hadith)
Look under your arms before peeping at other's.
You are no American Mr. Amer, yet you are enemy #1 of Pakistan and it's people yourself & all those alike. People like you abide by the pettiest laws when abroad yet they ignore or overcome by paying bribes or on the basis of who they know i.e. connections.
Twice Nawaz not-so-Sharief ruled over Pakistan and did not accomplish anything for common people except for himself and his cronies. Twice BB ruled over Pakistan and ----ditto----.
President Gen. Musharaf did not rob a single penny of Pakistan's treasury as compared to these two and several others earlier in the history. Based on your description filled with attempts to humiliate a sitting head of the state you are no lesser than his character as described by you.
"Mr Amer i feel no difference between you and mr musharaf regarding personal offences. I am not trumpeting the drums of musharaf's policies but at least you have some respect for your president.
What have you given to your country?????
People like you are victim of inferiority complex.
JAISI ROOH WAISAY FRISHTAY
Has musharaf asked us to show no respect for human lives whom we are blowing with the spate of bombs??
Has musharaf persuaded us to rape the innocents , plunder the national asset , violate every law the federation has made and make grafting and corruption our popular tenets.
What are you talking about human rights. Did you ever fulfilled your obligations which state demands from you.
Tell me onething, Pakistan in its history has seen dozen of rulers, why the condition of country is not changed? because we people have put all our eggs in pliticians' basket. We have never tried to do something for the betterment of our fellow except leg pulling.
I hope it will be in your consideration:
"WASHINGTON, March 7: A key foreign policy adviser to Barack Obama resigned on Friday, after calling his White House foe Hillary Clinton a “monster” " (Dawn 08 march)
A person has resigned as she made some aggressive remarks. Such a spirit leads the nation to prosperity. If you cant behave like american people then you have no right to clamour for american-styled democarcy in Pakistan. Musharaf rightly says (the only point with which i am agree) that we are different kind of nation so must be herded differently.
People like you have turned Pakistan's problem into quicksand by making the people dispair about the future. When there is complete loss of hope in society, it would not be able to build country on concrete basis.
I request "people like you", instead of criticizing and preaching the messages of hostility , take some bold initiatives to reform the era of progress."
Ones actions/deeds are the reflections of their intentions(Hadith)
Look under your arms before peeping at other's.
You are no American Mr. Amer, yet you are enemy #1 of Pakistan and it's people yourself & all those alike. People like you abide by the pettiest laws when abroad yet they ignore or overcome by paying bribes or on the basis of who they know i.e. connections.
Twice Nawaz not-so-Sharief ruled over Pakistan and did not accomplish anything for common people except for himself and his cronies. Twice BB ruled over Pakistan and ----ditto----.
President Gen. Musharaf did not rob a single penny of Pakistan's treasury as compared to these two and several others earlier in the history. Based on your description filled with attempts to humiliate a sitting head of the state you are no lesser than his character as described by you.
"Mr Amer i feel no difference between you and mr musharaf regarding personal offences. I am not trumpeting the drums of musharaf's policies but at least you have some respect for your president.
What have you given to your country?????
People like you are victim of inferiority complex.
JAISI ROOH WAISAY FRISHTAY
Has musharaf asked us to show no respect for human lives whom we are blowing with the spate of bombs??
Has musharaf persuaded us to rape the innocents , plunder the national asset , violate every law the federation has made and make grafting and corruption our popular tenets.
What are you talking about human rights. Did you ever fulfilled your obligations which state demands from you.
Tell me onething, Pakistan in its history has seen dozen of rulers, why the condition of country is not changed? because we people have put all our eggs in pliticians' basket. We have never tried to do something for the betterment of our fellow except leg pulling.
I hope it will be in your consideration:
"WASHINGTON, March 7: A key foreign policy adviser to Barack Obama resigned on Friday, after calling his White House foe Hillary Clinton a “monster” " (Dawn 08 march)
A person has resigned as she made some aggressive remarks. Such a spirit leads the nation to prosperity. If you cant behave like american people then you have no right to clamour for american-styled democarcy in Pakistan. Musharaf rightly says (the only point with which i am agree) that we are different kind of nation so must be herded differently.
People like you have turned Pakistan's problem into quicksand by making the people dispair about the future. When there is complete loss of hope in society, it would not be able to build country on concrete basis.
I request "people like you", instead of criticizing and preaching the messages of hostility , take some bold initiatives to reform the era of progress."
#14 Posted by amernazir on March 12, 2008 4:52:40 am
Re: # 13 Friend, the job may yet not be finished... it is perhaps just a step in the right direction. The ultimate power must reside in the people one day and there should be public accountability... the hope is that this is a new world and a new nation - the people resistance has asserted itself... if the institutions develop... the judiciary, the media etc... it will be difficult for anyone to misbehave with utter disregard to decency...
Today, the army officers, the politicins, the state machinery including the ISI and FIA even are subdued and have started worrying about the common man...
There may not be any quick fixes - and our expectations of immediate miracles and turn arounds although the players are yet unchanged is also a bit unrealistic... nonetheless it is a new road, a new process of evolution - and our only hope is that this time it is built on the correct premises and which is of course better than to nourish an army dictatorship...
Today, the army officers, the politicins, the state machinery including the ISI and FIA even are subdued and have started worrying about the common man...
There may not be any quick fixes - and our expectations of immediate miracles and turn arounds although the players are yet unchanged is also a bit unrealistic... nonetheless it is a new road, a new process of evolution - and our only hope is that this time it is built on the correct premises and which is of course better than to nourish an army dictatorship...
#13 Posted by mistaken_enigma on March 11, 2008 8:49:19 am
Haha .. you write well.
However, I don't really see how any of the other folks are going to be any better than Prez. Mush. Especially when you have Sharif's previous track record.
However, I don't really see how any of the other folks are going to be any better than Prez. Mush. Especially when you have Sharif's previous track record.
#12 Posted by ELUSIVE on March 10, 2008 9:13:18 pm
I felt that this article is below the belt. I personally have issues with Musharraf's governance style and the happenings of our country- but i will respect the office of President. Lets not become the laughing stock of the world.
I was even surprised by Nawaz Shareef's political incorrectness in the recent press conference that was held in Bhurban.
I was even surprised by Nawaz Shareef's political incorrectness in the recent press conference that was held in Bhurban.
#10 Posted by waseeem on March 8, 2008 5:28:05 am
Mr Amer i feel no difference between you and mr musharaf regarding personal offences.I am not trumpeting the drums of musharaf's policies but at least you have some respect for your president.
What have you given to your country?????
People like you are victim of inferiority complex.
JAISI ROOH WAISAY FRISHTAY
Has musharaf asked us to show no respect for human lives whom we are blowing with the spate of bombs??
Has musharaf persuaded us to rape the innocents , plunder the national asset , violate every law the federation has made and make grafting and corruption our popular tenets.
What are you talking about human rights. Did you ever fulfilled your obligations which state demands from you.
Tell me onething, Pakistan in its history has seen dozen of rulers, why the condition of country is not changed? because we people have put all our eggs in pliticians' basket. We have never tried to do something for the betterment of our fellow except leg pulling.
I hope it will be in your consideration:
"WASHINGTON, March 7: A key foreign policy adviser to Barack Obama resigned on Friday, after calling his White House foe Hillary Clinton a “monster” " (Dawn 08 march)
A person has resigned as she made some aggressive remarks. Such a spirit leads the nation to prosperity. If you cant behave like american people then you have no right to clamour for american-styled democarcy in Pakistan. Musharaf rightly says (the only point with which i am agree) that we are different kind of nation so must be herded differently.
People like you have turned Pakistan's problem into quicksand by making the people dispair about the future. When there is complete loss of hope in society, it would not be able to build country on concrete basis.
I request "people like you", instead of criticizing and preaching the messages of hostility , take some bold initiatives to reform the era of progress.
What have you given to your country?????
People like you are victim of inferiority complex.
JAISI ROOH WAISAY FRISHTAY
Has musharaf asked us to show no respect for human lives whom we are blowing with the spate of bombs??
Has musharaf persuaded us to rape the innocents , plunder the national asset , violate every law the federation has made and make grafting and corruption our popular tenets.
What are you talking about human rights. Did you ever fulfilled your obligations which state demands from you.
Tell me onething, Pakistan in its history has seen dozen of rulers, why the condition of country is not changed? because we people have put all our eggs in pliticians' basket. We have never tried to do something for the betterment of our fellow except leg pulling.
I hope it will be in your consideration:
"WASHINGTON, March 7: A key foreign policy adviser to Barack Obama resigned on Friday, after calling his White House foe Hillary Clinton a “monster” " (Dawn 08 march)
A person has resigned as she made some aggressive remarks. Such a spirit leads the nation to prosperity. If you cant behave like american people then you have no right to clamour for american-styled democarcy in Pakistan. Musharaf rightly says (the only point with which i am agree) that we are different kind of nation so must be herded differently.
People like you have turned Pakistan's problem into quicksand by making the people dispair about the future. When there is complete loss of hope in society, it would not be able to build country on concrete basis.
I request "people like you", instead of criticizing and preaching the messages of hostility , take some bold initiatives to reform the era of progress.
#9 Posted by amernazir on March 5, 2008 3:16:37 am
Re: # 8 I agree with what you say - but we can only hope... hope that the politicians have somewhat learnt their lessons and that the nation has matured - and then after all, the world has also changed a bit in the last eight years - it is now a new scenario...which requires another effort... at least now, we have some semblence of a nation asserting itself by standing beside a free judiciary and a free media - institutions that can hopefully put in place some public accountability...
And you may agree that it is a step in the right direction as against an expedient way out and which is to settle for a wrong road map which may never leed in the right direction...
I assume that you live in the states - and you know that institutions are more important than individuals - that institutions should not revolve around individuals and that it should be the other way around...
During my ordeal which has been going around for years - it was by default that I had to have a close look at my environment and about things that I had not earlier bothered about... and I begged and pleaded for justice with at least 15 generals and scores of high level army officers... some of them had been friends earlier... and what I discovered was amazing...there are only personal interests and financial gains that they are after, accompanied by a common characteristic of arrogance and even cruelty and which of course is based on a self-righteous stand - a stand which has a kosher cover, namely: Patriotism...
They believe that they are indispensible for the international community because of our geo-political position but what is alarming is their outright contempt for civilians - and this is a thinking by default which has taken so much root that it cannot be erased easily...
However, and this was the second most important conclusion for me, that they are so unaware of the world developments and so entrenched in their last century SOP's that they do not have the vision or even the desire to build up systems that can control corruption - they only hope to do so by force,torture and imprisionment and that too only if it serves their purpose... but of course they can only do even this after the fact since they do not have the capability to introduce systems that can deter before the fact... and this is why they have never been able to introduce civilized controls and checks in the shape of laws and systems... in other words they do not have the capability of putting in place civilian institutions since their knowledge is confined to army set-ups only... and consequently, they do not have any concept of human rights, free judiciary and media, a free economy etc... and this is where the greatest threat lies...
Additionally, you see an independent judiciary can one day even bring the army officers under its jurisdiction and they may lose their immunity vis a vis the common man - human rights of the common man can also perhaps one day initiate a challenge to the disbursement of 70% of the national wealth with the help of the judiciary and the media... and the human rights of a common soldier who is so inhumanly treated and given pittance as compensation can maybe throw even the army into chaos and so on and so forth...
No matter how you see it - the army losses if civilied institutions are put in place...it is a zero sum game. Henceforth, although they do not deny the importance of such institutions - they cannot commit suicide by implementing them...
In fact, the above institutions are exactly what this decadent set-up is taught to supress under the guise of sincerity, patriotism, corruption or whatever - and which is incidently also a good slogan to make huge personal money... and then after all, the alternate of the corrupt politicians aside, the rhetoric of progress that cannot be substantiated aside - what has this regime actually done for the common man...
Now tell me friend... how can there ever be any nation building without institution building... the only correct thing for us to do is to work for a system of public accountability - even if our politicians are corrupt - this does not mean we should forsake the correct path...and settle for what is outrightly wrong...
And you may agree that it is a step in the right direction as against an expedient way out and which is to settle for a wrong road map which may never leed in the right direction...
I assume that you live in the states - and you know that institutions are more important than individuals - that institutions should not revolve around individuals and that it should be the other way around...
During my ordeal which has been going around for years - it was by default that I had to have a close look at my environment and about things that I had not earlier bothered about... and I begged and pleaded for justice with at least 15 generals and scores of high level army officers... some of them had been friends earlier... and what I discovered was amazing...there are only personal interests and financial gains that they are after, accompanied by a common characteristic of arrogance and even cruelty and which of course is based on a self-righteous stand - a stand which has a kosher cover, namely: Patriotism...
They believe that they are indispensible for the international community because of our geo-political position but what is alarming is their outright contempt for civilians - and this is a thinking by default which has taken so much root that it cannot be erased easily...
However, and this was the second most important conclusion for me, that they are so unaware of the world developments and so entrenched in their last century SOP's that they do not have the vision or even the desire to build up systems that can control corruption - they only hope to do so by force,torture and imprisionment and that too only if it serves their purpose... but of course they can only do even this after the fact since they do not have the capability to introduce systems that can deter before the fact... and this is why they have never been able to introduce civilized controls and checks in the shape of laws and systems... in other words they do not have the capability of putting in place civilian institutions since their knowledge is confined to army set-ups only... and consequently, they do not have any concept of human rights, free judiciary and media, a free economy etc... and this is where the greatest threat lies...
Additionally, you see an independent judiciary can one day even bring the army officers under its jurisdiction and they may lose their immunity vis a vis the common man - human rights of the common man can also perhaps one day initiate a challenge to the disbursement of 70% of the national wealth with the help of the judiciary and the media... and the human rights of a common soldier who is so inhumanly treated and given pittance as compensation can maybe throw even the army into chaos and so on and so forth...
No matter how you see it - the army losses if civilied institutions are put in place...it is a zero sum game. Henceforth, although they do not deny the importance of such institutions - they cannot commit suicide by implementing them...
In fact, the above institutions are exactly what this decadent set-up is taught to supress under the guise of sincerity, patriotism, corruption or whatever - and which is incidently also a good slogan to make huge personal money... and then after all, the alternate of the corrupt politicians aside, the rhetoric of progress that cannot be substantiated aside - what has this regime actually done for the common man...
Now tell me friend... how can there ever be any nation building without institution building... the only correct thing for us to do is to work for a system of public accountability - even if our politicians are corrupt - this does not mean we should forsake the correct path...and settle for what is outrightly wrong...
#8 Posted by MeraPakistan on March 4, 2008 9:18:17 am
Re: # 7
But perhaps you are presuming that Ameer-ulMomeneen(NawazSharif) or Mr.10%(Zardari) can solve your problems?
Unfortunately, we dont have much choice in the upper brass and we have to choose the less evil person at this time rather than an ideal candidate.
I am not saying that Musharraf is a Saint. What I am saying that in present situation, he is far better candidate as a Head of State than the above two.
I am not denying that Musharraf may have done bad to you, but we will have to prepare for worst after NS and Zardari come to power.
we as a nation are very sentimental and we have short memory, and now we have forgotten all the sins of these corrupt political leaders who were doing worse than Musharraf at the time when there was only PTV and almost zero press media. I dont think, they will be able to ride this ship now.
But perhaps you are presuming that Ameer-ulMomeneen(NawazSharif) or Mr.10%(Zardari) can solve your problems?
Unfortunately, we dont have much choice in the upper brass and we have to choose the less evil person at this time rather than an ideal candidate.
I am not saying that Musharraf is a Saint. What I am saying that in present situation, he is far better candidate as a Head of State than the above two.
I am not denying that Musharraf may have done bad to you, but we will have to prepare for worst after NS and Zardari come to power.
we as a nation are very sentimental and we have short memory, and now we have forgotten all the sins of these corrupt political leaders who were doing worse than Musharraf at the time when there was only PTV and almost zero press media. I dont think, they will be able to ride this ship now.
#7 Posted by amernazir on March 4, 2008 8:13:43 am
Re: # 6 Well,you have caught me in the act... no more hawai fires by me I assure you... how did you find out so quickly and so decisively... you are amazing...
I have been trying to get away with this for so long - but you have caught on at once... I guess it had to come to an end...
However, do find some time to read The NAB Diaries on www.teeth.com.pk and several other bloggs including the PPP,TI, and peoples resistance sites, alongwith an open letter to the chairman NAB to either refute the accusation or resign and also articles on this in Dawn and the Nation covered by independent senior journalists...( you will have to put my name in a search engine)
All of the above were also sent to and received by the President, the Chairman NAB, the CJ of Pakistan and the High Commissioner in the UK.
I respect your sentiments - but your realities and my realities are perhaps different - you and your familly did not go through the illegal persecution personally...and mine is but only a small example... tell the families of the missing and the murdered how good Mush is...tell them your opinion...
I have been trying to get away with this for so long - but you have caught on at once... I guess it had to come to an end...
However, do find some time to read The NAB Diaries on www.teeth.com.pk and several other bloggs including the PPP,TI, and peoples resistance sites, alongwith an open letter to the chairman NAB to either refute the accusation or resign and also articles on this in Dawn and the Nation covered by independent senior journalists...( you will have to put my name in a search engine)
All of the above were also sent to and received by the President, the Chairman NAB, the CJ of Pakistan and the High Commissioner in the UK.
I respect your sentiments - but your realities and my realities are perhaps different - you and your familly did not go through the illegal persecution personally...and mine is but only a small example... tell the families of the missing and the murdered how good Mush is...tell them your opinion...
#6 Posted by MeraPakistan on March 4, 2008 5:41:37 am
Re: # 5
Its good that we share the same professional background. I also manage a software house in US that outsource its software development to software houses based in Karachi and Lahore. I know lot of people in this industry in Pakistan, specially karachi.
As you said, you have invested multi-million dollars in IT Industry, can you please describe exactly the name of the companies and individuals who taken over your investment. Its pretty easy to do the "Hawai Fire".
If we only talk about the Economy, In my opinion Musharraf did a better job as compared to previous governments of PPP or PML-N. Pakistan was on a brink of bankruptcy when Nawaz (not so Sharif) was booted out.
Musharraf actually did really good in the beginning of his tenure when he was CEO, but since he became the president, the ride was downhill. He had good intentions but later on he was more busy in securing his chair, as he thought that, if he leaves, the same corrupt politicians will come back and revert all what he has done.
One can go ahead and criticise but keep the reaalities and obstacles in mind.
Its good that we share the same professional background. I also manage a software house in US that outsource its software development to software houses based in Karachi and Lahore. I know lot of people in this industry in Pakistan, specially karachi.
As you said, you have invested multi-million dollars in IT Industry, can you please describe exactly the name of the companies and individuals who taken over your investment. Its pretty easy to do the "Hawai Fire".
If we only talk about the Economy, In my opinion Musharraf did a better job as compared to previous governments of PPP or PML-N. Pakistan was on a brink of bankruptcy when Nawaz (not so Sharif) was booted out.
Musharraf actually did really good in the beginning of his tenure when he was CEO, but since he became the president, the ride was downhill. He had good intentions but later on he was more busy in securing his chair, as he thought that, if he leaves, the same corrupt politicians will come back and revert all what he has done.
One can go ahead and criticise but keep the reaalities and obstacles in mind.
#5 Posted by amernazir on March 4, 2008 4:28:35 am
Re: # 3 Thanks for the offer - but I dont have the level to take on such an important responsibility - though I am sure there are people out there who qualify - and lets hope they get the job...
Well, I have been forced into this role to be honest, of criticizing...
Earlier, I had established and managed a multi-million dollar IT group of companies in Pakistan over a period of eighteen years which was taken over by some friends of a corrupt NAB Chairman... this was inspite the fact that Mush had recognized my contribution towards IT in Pakistan...
And when no appeal for justice is entertained if it is against an army general and you are forced into exile - then believe me my friend, it makes you think, and during the process you become privy to facts that you would rather live without if you had a choice...
Dictatorship, Human Rights, free judiciary and free press - are not matters that I have invented - though, I am qualified enough to read and learn about such important issues and then criticize with the hope that what happened to me would not happen to others...
You will agree that by not criticizing, by going silent, with reference to the destruction of recognized laws and institutions is no solution either...
Well, I have been forced into this role to be honest, of criticizing...
Earlier, I had established and managed a multi-million dollar IT group of companies in Pakistan over a period of eighteen years which was taken over by some friends of a corrupt NAB Chairman... this was inspite the fact that Mush had recognized my contribution towards IT in Pakistan...
And when no appeal for justice is entertained if it is against an army general and you are forced into exile - then believe me my friend, it makes you think, and during the process you become privy to facts that you would rather live without if you had a choice...
Dictatorship, Human Rights, free judiciary and free press - are not matters that I have invented - though, I am qualified enough to read and learn about such important issues and then criticize with the hope that what happened to me would not happen to others...
You will agree that by not criticizing, by going silent, with reference to the destruction of recognized laws and institutions is no solution either...
#3 Posted by MeraPakistan on March 3, 2008 5:34:52 am
I guess its time to award the preidency to Mr. Amer Nazir. He will sure take Pakistan to the new heights, lol.
Critisizing is the easiest thing, one can do.
Critisizing is the easiest thing, one can do.
#2 Posted by amernazir on March 3, 2008 2:08:37 am
Re: # 1 Well, He didnt help, now did he... we had great hopes from him - but in eight years he only took us back further...
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