Reinterpretation of Islam in Turkey

Re: # 194
The custom of the country is driven by the will of the majority. At least majority of people sanction this.

#193 you were referring to the "people of Saudi" to which i responded. now you refer to a "country" as a whole. that is two different things.

Re: # 192
The country where woman are not allowed to drive is a modern country?

nkg: on your "If it is so, then why even the people of Saudi are not modern?"

Why do you assume all Saudi's are non-modern? Can there be any doubt that in any community you will find people who are intellectually honest and rational (i.e. modern) and people who are not?

Re: # 187
Thus, per this definition, far from making Islam a hurdle in the way to modernity, Islam is modernity itself!! .

Ans: If it is so, then why even the people of Saudi are not modern?
When a people starts talking about word of God, splitting of moon, sanctioning killing instead of debate, then it is something which is against basic human civilisational value. Core of Islam and deeds of Mo are like that only. If you try to find modernity, then you have been brought up in different environment and trying to impose that on Islam. You may say, how come Islam is so popular? It provides instant superficial justice which is in synch with ordinary person's psych, most of whom are driven by animal instincts. It does not take man to higher level. Why every corner of world, muslims burns the flag of Denmark (Africa to far East) for couple of cartoons? Have Islam tought to look at the sensibilities of the people of that country?

Re: # 115
Turkey is turkey today and different from other Arab neighbours, as K A forced people to abundon Islam. When you allow people to come back to the age of darkness (mediaval period is called so and unfortunately Islam and Christianity is product of that age), the result will be visible within couple of decades.
Curtailing women's power, priests intervening in social events, magic/miracle/word of god etc. are the basic phenomenon of this. In Turkey, it has started now ( Universities will allow girls wearing burqa).
As per my knowledge of ancient India & Greece ( through the nice literature it has produced) women were as free as man. Can you imagine of Swyamvara even today?
I like Gita for the very reason, there is no magic/miracle/word of God concept there. The last verse talks about submission, when everything fails. Brahmins kept India dark by keeping the knowledge available to couple of privileged once.

in #188, read the question to be "Is it good for Pakistan that Musharraf has placed himself above the Pakistan Constitution?" (I left out the word "constitution")

anil sahib #170 on your question "I feel Zeemax Sahib is more mainstream among three of you. Would you and Hamidm Sahib agree with me on this?".

By mainstream I assume you mean how the average Pakistani sees the issue of the restoration of the judiciary. Who can say? More importantly, we need to look at the issue objectively in terms of the impact of its impact on Pakistan: Is it good for Pakistan that Musharraf has placed himself above the Pakistan? Is it good for Pakistan that Pakistanis have been "disappeared" by Musharraf and his goons? So what is your answer to these questions?

messrs. Tehsin, Cheema: 3000 years ago, Socrates said "first, define your terms" (or something like that). There are many different definitions of Islam. So, when you talk about "Islam and Modernity" you need to first define what you mean by Islam. Here is my definition: Individual responsbility God to use one's mental faculties to distinguish between right and wrong and to do the right thing. This is what I read the Quran clearly telling me. And I dont care what some ill-educated, irrational, dishonest man with a beard has to say. End of Story.

In Europe, this was termed the Age of Reason and dawned 500 years ago. Among muslims, the message was followed in spurts, but has been totally supplanted by "culture" of central asian jahils (aka ottomans) who were more interested in retaining their kingship than in understanding Islam.

Thus, per this definition, far from making Islam a hurdle in the way to modernity, Islam is modernity itself!! .

Hope this resolves your problem..

akcheema, congrats for acquiring your new duplicate nick TehsinA. Or is it the latest recruit to the Murtid cause?

#167 Posted by anil

... who do you think will benefit from this great opportunity Pakistani Awam has gifted to its leaders, or will they squander it?

Nawaz Sharif will benefit. I'll answer in greater detail in a little while.

Re: # 172

Islam and modernity are not mutually compatible; only one stays. History of the Islamic world is different in that respect from the west.

This is very much an open war between civilisation on one end and Islam on the other!

Pakistan WILL remain unstable for the foreseeable future until the "Maududiites" in the army (recruited during Zia's regime; closeness between Zia and Mian Tufail - Amir of JI at the time has been no secret) are in senior enough ranks to provide support for an Islamic Revolution; lead of course by the "Jammat-e-Islami".

This would put the fear of god in everyone in that region and the rest of the world, until yet again, the people would be able to see this doctrine for what it really is and that day my friends, will be the end of Islam as we know it.

That is the only "Reformation" possible where Islam is concerened.

Back to the Article:

Reformation as other events in history have to occur within a time frame. In Christianity it took place when religion itself was central in peoples’ lives. It was before the industrial revolution when the printing press was just coming on and people were insisting on knowing what the priest was saying in Latin. Things have changed entirely, Europe was lucky to have its religion evolve and reform but even then the Western half has abandoned religion, while the Eastern half gave it up as state policy. China and the Far East have followed a similar path.

Just because Muslims continue to hold on to their orthodoxy does not mean that once their system is questioned it can be coherently brought to modernity as it happened with Christianity. The time for such an evolutionary approach is long gone. The world has moved on and too much information will prevent any such measures to take root.

The only thing that can happen is to allow Islam to take the route of the typewriter. Those who wish to maintain their machines, both mechanical and electrical can do so but with dismal results and diminishing utility, and hopefully they will end up dying away. The rest of us should just ignore it and move on.

GT, that is because Mushy ain't going nowhere. Nawaz's vitriol against him has no takers in PPP and thus the partnership professed has been doomed to fail from the git-go. (different from Gitmo for the jihadi choots reading)

RF: yo umentioned grass roots. If you look at this election, this is was a victory of feudals over mullahs and Military in name only. AAThe mullahs sat home to plan the suicicde attacks, and the military still has an ex-boss up top. The optics might have change but the common abdul is still nowhere closer to reaping the benefits of democracy than before the election.

Why is the PPP not being asked to (a) form a government; (b) the formed govt. prove its majority in x amount of time?

Isn't it kind of late?

Re: # 178

hamidm2

On the contrary, PPP seems to be very keen to form Govt but are not comfortable with NS dominating Punjab thus the suggestion to nominate a Punjabi PPP PM. Unfortunately, that means end of the road for Amin Fahim and his buddies who may decide to form their splinter group.

On a separate note, PML-Q has already started to say that the elections were rigged against them. Lo karlo gull.