How did Hindus Become Vegetarians?

cheema ji, just a minor point.

You are not dealing here with "belief... without question" but "belief AFTER question(s) stop."

A faithful is encouraged to and does continually question, but then creates a PERSONAL(IZED) understanding that subsumes or transcends those questions.

So some of the faithful may choose to believe in flying billy goats quite literally, others may consider that a figurative message, while yet others may simply choose to 'ignore' that as too minor a point to worry about, and focus on major principles (which naturally will be all very different for different people).

Faith is exclusively 'intra-subjective' understanding, while humanistic doctrines all tend to aim for inter-subjective understanding.

DM # 294

Thanks. I understood fully what I wrote. I do acknowledge the distinction in so much that it exists; but based on whose claim?

One has to ask oneself this perfectly simple question; if someone comes up to me today and claims to have some message from a god based on private revelation, how does one verify that claim? Of course that verification is no longer required if one believes in it without question (Eklavya school of thought); the concept of "flying billy-goats" changes from one of sheer entertainment to that of some spiritual significance that doesn't need rational justification. Besides, my questions were exactly what you pointed out, if a message was good, why not send that same message ALL the time with the same safeguards to keep it un-corrupted?

Why don't you share your take on it?

AlephNull #287:

I didn't mean to upset your senstivities; however, I will not use kid gloves to handle religion. We have had debates about the political parties, personalities etc where people share their views about how they wish to be governed; why should I not ask tough questions about some doctrine that wants to run every aspect of our lives?

To me, all religions are equally open to critique; the reason I talk about Islam is because that is my heritage. I don't feel qualified to take the p... out of someone else's faith. And by the way, no one is "najis" in my eyes be it hindu, muslim, christian, jew or something else; they are all human beings and I resent a fellow human being described as "najis".

Re: # 294

"Any new challenges could be met through the approved process of Ijtihad, of course within the framework of the quran."

What is the "framework of Quran" you talk about?

the first principle is that you cannot question that paedophile.
the second priciple is that you cannot question his words.
the third principle is that no other person can claim his words to be correct over his ( the notion of last prophet).

that is the crux of "Frame work of Quran" - if you think you know more about it then let us know!!

akcheema#186:

I am surprised that, as an informed muslim, you do not understand the distinction between Prophet Mohammad and earlier prophets. He is the Last Prophet because Allah took upon Himself the responsibility of keeping the message uncorrupted. The quranic message will forever remain unadulterated and there would never be a need for another prophet. Any new challenges could be met through the approved process of Ijtihad, of course within the framework of the quran.

Re: # 282

Motiyaan wali sarkar,

Jis din meray andar da rajput 'pootar gaya', I may start to sort out that also.............

#264 Posted by Eklavya

For the faithful, 'flying prophets' is a minor detail. Anything is possible in God's domain ... Believers, of course, may correct me if I misunderstand.

You're right on the dot. The supernatural phenomena are all minor details which no Muslim dwells upon, and few even know of.

For instance, you will rarely hear people adulating Muhammad's splitting of the moon etc, while you see Headees' relating to worldly qualities like his perseverance or bravery or compassion all the time.

In short, it is not a debate BY FAR in Islam. Wonder why Mirzais want to make it a debate!

Re: # 290


I do not think whether Mohammad can become "Angelic" from any Vantage point?? It is only that momeens are taught NOT to question him. If momeens start questioning him, then from ANY vantage point he remains a person not worth emulating.

laddu, we just missed you on this board!

laddu, an argument can be made that God and Satan are not always 'different entities.' And your idolatrous Hinduism and Islam can certainly appear as satanic cults from each other's vantage points.

So be careful before you accuse others :)

Re: # 287

Mullad Gardi. The Gundas of blood thirsty Allah can only try to terrorize by threatening imprisonment in their imaginary Islamic torture cells.

Re: # 286
"As for the "god's message getting perverted", where was he when it was happening? Surely an omniscient god would have known exactly what was to become of his "previous" messages; why send those messages at all! "

An excellent question - I would even go on to say why the blood thirsty God would try all his perversions to test poor human beings. Why doesn't he implant his instructions of hadiths and sunnat in the brains of humans so that they act like perfect clones of Mohammad.?
Since, God was not able to do this therefore he has created an imperfect creation. If God did that on purpose then all this violence and suffering and behaeadings of my idolator fore fathers who could not be persuaded by him , despite omnipotence, shows that he is only a satanic and perverted demi-god.
Infact , Mohammad's Allah is Satan in the guise of benevolent God.

akcheema #286

{{Sometime I wonder.........................Do you guys ever think OR are you just robots conditioned by your parents/teachers/society etc............}}

Cheema sahib, I am truly distressed by your unrepentant ladiniat. Forget about Ananth07 – he is a najis Hindu idolator and cannot be expected to know better. You however have had the inestimable advantage of a Muslim upbringing. Despite this you have allowed yourself to be hoodwinked by Western science and your own arrogant confidence in the powers of the unaided human intellect.

Ab bhi vakth hai – you can still repent of your repellent apostasy and revert to the Straight Path which was revealed for all times to come in the Quran-ul-Furqan Tariq-ul-Majid! If you require advice or assistance there are many erudite alims available on Chowk itself. Revert, revert, revert – or go to hell!

Re: # 284

I have written quite a bit about this "religion of nature" concept before; nature doesn't follow religious doctrine. If it was such a "natural" thing to be muslim, people wouldn't be dissecting it out as we are.

As for the "god's message getting perverted", where was he when it was happening? Surely an omniscient god would have known exactly what was to become of his "previous" messages; why send those messages at all!

However, if we DO accept your argument for a minute, Mohammed was born about 600 years after Jesus; god saw it fit to "revise" his message because it had been perverted; its 1400+ years since Mohammed now, by the same analogy, shouldn't we have had some further "revised/updated" editions of the messages as well?! You mean Jesus went through the trouble for NOTHING! Only to be corrected later because the "original" was so quickly perverted!! Maaan!...

Sometime I wonder.........................Do you guys ever think OR are you just robots conditioned by your parents/teachers/society etc............

#284

“Islam is the Straight Path – the original and pristine religion – the Religion of Nature, in perfect accord with reason and rationality itself.”


abrahamic religions are dogmatic and are bound to their respective books, which in turn makes them “relevant” only to that particular time and region when they came in to being. Science and free flow of information can only weaken these religions.

Ananth07 #283

{{The fact is Islam is a derived object of parent judeo christain object…. With a few new properties.}}

Incorrect. Totally false and baseless. Islam is the base class, if you will.

Islam is the Straight Path – the original and pristine religion – the Religion of Nature, in perfect accord with reason and rationality itself.

Unfortunately humankind being perverse strayed from the path and fell into error. That is why Allah SWT sent prophets like Moses and Jesus to bring humans back to the original faith. Despite these many mercies mankind still went astray. Judaism and Christianity in their present or even historic forms are not progenitors of Islam – they are corruptions of the original and perfect message which is Islam.

Finally Allah SWT sent Prophet Muhammad as the Final Prophet to convey the true message in its pristine original form so that mankind might revert to the Straight Path once and for all. This is a great gift which Allah SWT has given to you, a mercy for all mankind. No further law-bearing prophets are required or expected; those who claim to be such are nothing but monsters of heretical depravity.

The fact is Islam is a derived object of parent judeo christain object…. With a few new properties.

Why cant muslims accept Ahmadi as a derived object of parent object Islam…. Ahmadi also have a few new properties….

Re: # 281

Paaji, I am only asking you to sort it all out! Don't make any exceptions though, like the Shias, Brelvis etc...... I reckon someone who believes in the intercessary powers of, say Data Ganj Bakhsh Ali Hajveri, is committing the same crime.........you are intelligent enough....