The Deoband Declaration on Terrorism: Why Now?

Re: # 114

"Since all terror is deobandi in origin and deobandis were opposed to TNT then it negates all the rest of your arguments."

This is a false statement. It is refuted by the presence of Shia terrorists. Hamas and kashmiri terrorists are not deobandis. And Deobandis in India are yet to show the type of intolerance that is evident from Pakistani madarassas.
I think it is because Pakistani constitution considers "Islamic Principles" to be the basis of all acts and rules...and nothing can be ultra-vires to this.........which has been rightly interpreted by the mullahs that only they hold the key to interpretation of PAki constitution.and ofcourse complete conformity with Sharia is the "basic principle" of Pakistani consitution!!

Re: # 114

Ther is NO fallacy . I am not asserting that there is a coincidental correlation between Mohammadeanism and TNT.

Let us look intgo the "minority interest argument" again.

MJ was only negotiating for preservation of muslim identity.

TNT was required to preserve muslim identity.

muslim identity is based upon 5 pillors of Islam and Quran.

Thus TNT is based upon what Quran states to be the muslim identity.

Thus, TNT is bsed upon Islam.

QED.

Let us not fool ourselves. Every momeen knew what Quran says and what Pakistan was supposed to achieve- the only confusion was in the mind of MAJ. He thought that that Pakistan was a secular state but talked about "muslim" identity which was pre-dominantly based upon Islamic identity.

Yo YLH - you are still alive... good to know... feroz had a close call recently - suicide bomb went off a few hundred feet of where he was...

Be careful out there - jihadis, I mean gandhi-followers, are all over pakiland now...

BTW, manto..

did you hear about how the indigenous freedom fighters of the Lashkar-e-toiba, the kashmiri freedom fighting group, were responsible for the bombings in Lahore?

you know...the kashmiri freedom struggle you're such a big supporter of...

I hope nobody you know got whacked by the actions of the freedom fighters you supported...

no seriously..

is post hoc the newly discovered word of the day?

if you're going to use it in every post, at least use it right..

a proper use would be if someone, no one in particular, were to claim that gandhi supported the mullahs in the 1940s and lal masjid happened in 2007....hence gandhi caused lal masjid...

113,

Well yes...to a certain extent that is true.

But that disproves your post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy about Pakistan and TNT which renders your earlier 112 meaningless.

Neither prophet Muhammad nor the TNT have anything to do with Deobandi Islamic militancy since Deobandis denounced the TNT which you say can be traced back to Muhammad.

Since all terror is deobandi in origin and deobandis were opposed to TNT then it negates all the rest of your arguments.

All the mullahs were against Jinnah leading a truncated part of conquered land of India because that would mean relinquishing the conquered part of Islamic land.
Read Madani other mullahs , they only were against the truncated land of Pakistan.

Post facto , all the mullahs were rapid supporters of Pakistan-as-an-Islamic-state.........

Re: # 111

Acually the history of TNT can easily be traced back to Mohammad.........blame him for creation of Pakistan and the Jehadism.....

More of the same flawed "magical" reasoning. All I am saying is that Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc vis a vis creation of Pakistan is false.

What we do today is the direct result of our actions today and not of people who do not belong to this spacetime location.

#109 Posted by MantoLives on March 15, 2008 5:00:42 am

So gandhi is responsible for the daily bombings, the US bombing of paki citizens, pakiland being on the top 10 dangerous places and lowest on the tourism index?

hmm..I might have to revise my opinion of gandhi...

My good friends from across the border are busy repeating the fallacy that we know as "Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc".

The history of Islamic militancy in the subcontinent is quite clearly Deobandi specific. This is why they need to come up with a fatwa in the first place. Barelvi Islam - the adherents of which formed the mainbody of those TNT-ists everyone here loves to hate- never considered terrorism and militancy halal.

I don't like repeating the history lesson but I am afraid I have no option because such lies and misinformation should not go unchecked.

Achyuth Patwardhan, one of the Socialist stalwarts in the Congress, has given a remarkably candid and self critical analysis of the Congress Party vis-a-vis Khilafat: ’It is, however, useful to recognise our share of this error of misdirection. To begin with, I am convinced that looking back upon the course of development of the freedom movement, THE ’HIMALAYAN ERROR’ of Gandhiji’s leadership was the support he extended on behalf of the Congress and the Indian people to the Khilafat Movement at the end of the World War I. This has proved to be a disastrous error which has brought in its wake a series of harmful consequences. On merits, it was a thoroughly reactionary step. The Khilafat was totally unworthy of support of the Progressive Muslims. Kemel Pasha established this solid fact by abolition of the Khilafat. The abolition of the Khilafat was widely welcomed by enlightened Muslim opinion the world over and Kemel was an undoubted hero of all young Muslims straining against Imperialist domination. But apart from the fact that Khilafat was an unworthy reactionary cause, Mahatma Gandhi had to align himself with a sectarian revivalist Muslim Leadership of clerics and maulvis. He was thus unwittingly responsible for jettisoning sane, secular, modernist leadership among the Muslims of India and foisting upon the Indian Muslims a theocratic orthodoxy of the Maulvis. Maulana Mohammed Ali’s speeches read today appear strangely incoherent and out of tune with the spirit of secular political freedom. The Congress Movement which released the forces of religious liberalism and reform among the Hindus, and evoked a rational scientific outlook, placed the Muslims of India under the spell of orthodoxy and religious superstition by their support to the Khilafat leadership. Rationalist leaders like Jinnah were rebuffed by this attitude of Congress and Gandhi. This is the background of the psychological rift between Congress and the Muslim League’.

and

’Since the Khilafat agitation, things have changed and it has been one of the many injuries inflicted on India by the encouragement of the Khilafat crusade, that the inner Muslim feeling of hatred against ’unbelievers’ has sprung up, naked and unashamed, as in years gone by’.

and

A terrible and gruesome fallout of the disastrous Khilafat experiment of Mahatma Gandhi was the Moplah Rebellion in Malabar District in 1921. According to the Report of the ENQUIRY COMMITTEE OF SERVANTS OF INDIA SOCIETY, the number of Hindus murdered by Moplah Muslims was 1500, the number of Hindus forcibly converted 20,000 and the value of property looted about Rs three crore. When the national and local leaders appealed to the virulently anti-Hindu Moplah Muslims in the name of Mahatma Gandhi to follow the ways of peace and non-violence, they replied bluntly with Islamic fervour: ’GANDHI IS A KAFIR, HOW CAN HE BE OUR LEADER?’ Dr Anne Besant declared: ’The Moplah Muslim marauders murdered and plundered abundantly, killed or drove away all Hindus who would not apostatize. Somewhere about 100,000 people were driven from their homes with nothing but the clothes they had on, stripped of everything’. She also accused all the Khilafat religious preachers for all this terrible atrocities. J Campbell, chief of the Intelligence Department, Government of India, held the Khilafat leaders squarely responsible for inciting racial hatred resulting in Moplah carnage.

http://www.newstodaynet.com/2006sud/06aug/2208ss1.htm

Mahatma Gandhi’s attempt to harness the feeling for the cause of national independence backfired and led to the uprising in Kerala known as the Moplah Rebellion. It took the British several months to put it down at the cost of thousands of lives.



Moplahs were very much part of the grand Khilafat Movement that Gandhi was spearheading and Gandhi kept apologising for them


The Dravidian Moplahs had directed their revolt with class venom against some Aryan high-caste Hindus with property as well as Britishers: Brahmanical elements tried to use that to spark a crisis in Hindu-Muslim relations all over India. Gandhi tried to hold a balance: like the U.S. press and the Negro nationalists who read it he stressed that the Moplah uprising could be made part of a united drive for independence by Indians of all sects.But he was also aware of the pan-Islamic dimension: in a December 1921 call to the British to suspend their attacks against the Moplahs, he was to observe that the Moplahs saw themselves as fighting for a religion with methods they considered religious: Yogesh Chadha, Rediscovering Gandhi (London: Century 1997) p. 254.


And lets not forget the Tehreek-e-Hijrat Fatwa that Gandhi’s right hand man Azad gave to Muslims which gave Muslims two options "JEHAD" or "HIJRAT".

The Muslim Ulema, thinkers and activists called for the boycott of foreign goods and non-cooperation with the British government. Meetings were organised in order to rally the masses to support these issues. The meetings were organised under the banner of Mo’tamar al-Ansar (The Workers Conference) and various newspapers such as Al-Hilal of Maualana Abul Kalam Azad and The Comrade of Maulana Mohammad Ali Jauhar. Both Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad and Maulana Maulana Mohammad Ali Jauhar were put behind bars for publishing anti-British articles in their newspapers. The latter spent four years in prison between 1911 and 1915CE.


The allegiance of the Muslim intelligentsia of India at that to the Khilafah is unquestionable. Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad summed up their view when he wrote in his newspaper al-Hilal on 6th November 1912 that the Ottoman Sultans possessed the only sword which Muslims had for their protection. Insofar as the “caliphate was essentially a religious integration of the shari’a�, it became “necessary by revelation, is of God’s institution and that obedience to its authority is farz, or positively commanded�.


The Khilafat Movement


In September 1919, Maulana Muhammad Ali and his brother Shaukat Ali, together with Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad, Dr. Mukhtar Ahmed Ansari, and Hasrat Mohani, started a new organization, the Khilafat Movement (1919-1924). Their avowed aim was to use whatever leverage they had to protect the Khilafah. They organized Khilafat Conferences in several northern Indian cities. It is noticeable that the scholars and activists that were part of the Khilafat movement came from different schools of thought and backgrounds, for example Maulana Abul Kalam Azad was known to be a ‘ghayr taqleedi’ (non-taqleedi – who believed Taqleed to Mazahib is prohibited) and Maulana Mahmood Hasan was Deobandi who are followers of the Hanafi Mazhab yet they were united in the objective of working for the maintenance of the Khilafah.


In 1919, the Bombay Khilafat Committee agreed on two important organisational goals: “first, to urge the retention of the temporal powers of the Sultan of Turkey as Caliph, and second to ensure his continued suzerainty over the Islamic holy places.�

Delivering the presidential address at the Calcutta meeting of the Bengal Provincial Khilafat Conference in 1920, Maulana Azad discussed the importance of Khilafah he declared, “the purpose of this institution was to organise and lead the Muslim community in the right path, to establish justice, to bring about peace, and to spread God’s word in the world. For all this it was absolutely necessary for the caliph to possess temporal power�. Maulana Azad had no doubt that “without an Imam, their lives were un-Islamic and that they would be damned after death�.


Maulana Azad published a book in 1920 called Masla-e-Khilafat (The Issue of Khilafah), he stated: “Without the Khilafah the existence of Islam is not possible, the Muslims of India with all their effort and power need to work for this�.

In the same book page 176 Maulana Azad said, “There are two types of ahkam shariah, the first is related to the individual like the commands and prohibitions, the fara’id (obligations) and wajibat in order to perfect oneself. The second is not related to the individual but is related to the Ummah, nation, collective obligations and state politics like the conquering of lands, political and economic laws�.

According to Peter Hardy, Maulana Azad believed that, “The Muslim who would separate religion and politics for Muslims is an apostate who works silently�.


The loss of political power in India and the threat posed by a combination of forces to the temporal authority of the caliph, was so worrisome for the leaders of the Muslim community that some of them felt compelled to issue fatwas ‘in favour of migration (hijra)’ from India.


Maulana Abul Kalam Azad issued a fatwa which was published in the daily Ahl-e-Hadith of Amritsar on 30 July 1920. In his fatwa he urged Hijrat from India as an alternative to non-cooperation with the British. (YLH’s note: Was the Hijaz Born Azad a "Wahabi"... note "Ahle-Hadith)

Maulana Abdul Bari’s fatwa said, “every Muslim residing here should adopt non-cooperation but if (that is) impossible, should proceed for hijrat�. Maulana Shaukat Ali issued a statement on behalf of the Central Khilafat Committee, “expressing the hope that all dedicated Muslims would stay in India and work for the non-cooperation. Only if it did not succeed would they consider resorting to hijrat�. The impact of the fatwa was electrifying and thousands of Muslims preferred to leave the Dar al harb of India where their religious rights symbolized in the position of the Turkish Caliph was being infringed.


And most amazing was the fact that Gandhi’s encouragement led to Deobandi ulema creating the Jamiat ulema Hind ... which in its numerous forms and heads plagues South Asia even today... and all these groups are spin offs of the same.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=g4GjrwQmxAA&feature=related

Pakistan ka jhanda Lal Kile par pheharaeinge......Hindustaani kutte....kashmir ki azzadi tak jang rahegi..bhaarat ki barbaadi tak jang raheegi.........pakistan ka bachha bachha larega aur khoon bahaega......


Every one must watch the seeds of hatred sown in the minds of young in Pukistan by its Jehadi civilian masters!!!

Its a white wash by deobandians.......jehad can never be ejected from Islam how so ever ugly it be globaly for ummah.

#102 Posted by dost_mittar,

I might add that Muslims in Singapore seem to be quite a happy lot.

And why not because Singapore after all has a Crescent on its flag!

Eklavya #77

Pakistan's Domain of Relevance -

That is a very important topic. It is another myth that has been created by the fertile minds in Pakistan. Almost a spin off of TNT that requires persons to be in a "different" world in order to appraise Pakistan. It is like Musharaff refusing to accept that Kargil was a disastor , instead considered it to have achieved its objective.
That is the schizophrenic attitude that has been taken by Pakistani government, military and the entire establishment that puts the portrait of Jinnah and mouth praises to TNT in order to justify their existence.

To think that Pakistan has created a world of its own that requires its own standards of appraisal is the typical relativist propaganda of the Islamist.

Ref dost_mittar #102

Can you tell me if India does not allow the first three items on your list?

Not doing the other three was just more sops to the Mozzies.