The Deoband Declaration on Terrorism: Why Now?

Ref ajeya #172

{#168 IslamIslam

Let me respond to this dumbass post that suggests that the US was "allowing" import of Chinese goods because of strategic reasons to "allow" China to rise.

Here's an article from someone who actually knows what he is talking about, not some small-time IT manager talking big on an obscure Internet site:}

Well, code coolies like you are sucking the dicks of the “small-time IT manager(s)� in most US and/or outsourcing companies in order to keep your job and hope to get a green card while you serve out your mandated 6-years and more of indentured labor as an H1-B visa holder. So, actually it is not a bad position to be an IT manager, small-time or big-time.

{http://www.chinanowmag.com/finance.htm}

I expect you will now be posting from China Now’s next issue about how the Dalai Lama is a “splittist� and how Tibetans love the Beijing government.

The least you can do is to find a source that is neutral. But that would mean that you actually have the comprehension capabilities of at least a banana slug.

Also, considering that FDI started flowing into China after 1978 and this article is published fully 30 years later in 2008, it would take an extraordinarily talented astrologer to predict back in 1978 that the Chinese government would be propping up the US economy by buying US Treasury bonds and other securities. But, how can a banana slug comprehend the passage of time? Thus you are quoting the actualities of 2008 to support your thesis of what took place in 1978.

{Here's an excerpt:

[Second, and perhaps even more importantly, the Chinese government policy of buying heavily in the U.S. debt market has contributed to much lower interest rates than would otherwise prevail. These low interest rates have been instrumental in keeping the U.S. economy from falling further and faster, including stimulating the aforementioned boom in housing.

In other words, public policies formulated in Beijing have actually been beneficial to the U.S. economy. Furthermore, cheap Chinese-made exports into the U.S. economy, the source of ire for U.S. government officials and politicians, have benefited American consumers. The effect of lower-priced consumer goods is to increase the real income of these consumers. They can buy more, and live better, than without these low-cost imported goods. The money saved on goods made in China may, in fact, result in increased purchases of the more capital- and knowledge-intensive goods manufactured in the United States, and may stimulate more spending on services and other goods that generate jobs in the domestic economy. It is, therefore, not quite so clear that an undervalued yuan (if, indeed, it is undervalued) is a zero sum game.

Is the yuan undervalued? This is also not as straightforward as it might seem. Yes, China is running a trade surplus with the United States because of the demand for low-priced, Chinese-made goods.....]}

Print this so that you can wipe your arse with it.

Re: # 180
One thing, I have missed.
In present situation, there is no point maintaining rituals. Brahmins does not force any ritual also. In large section of society, it is very difficult to find a brahmin to perform these rituals.

Re: # 180
I can not fully agree with you. Brahmins were of different types. Those who used to perform puja etc... used to create new rituals/customs to exploit others in the society. It was the main reason for popularity of Budhdhism. Lot of Jataka tales basically attacks unnecessary rituals by brahmins. But non-priest brahmins had carried out their work in medical science,yoga, astronomy, mathematics, literature. Aryabhatta was from post-Buddhist era. Similar stories you will find in ayurveda also. Muslims had killed these class of brahmins and tried to take away their work as islamic work. That stopped the development of that field. A refined society, under the rule of barbarians fails to maintain its standard. Read the story of Allah-upanishad. Now a days, moslems started claiming about their version of yoga.

nkg yar brahmins of today pretty much follow inane rotuals with little-understanding. now harimau claims to be an equal opportunity slayer of the stupid..imo brahmins are holders of a rich treasure-trove. its silly to blame medieval invasions on everything from shitting on the railroads to eating shit...hrimau is watching so be careful.

reality is IF there was good knowledge, and brahmins were indeed the holders of this, they ought to be blamed for losing it fair and square...after all they did not lose the mumbo-jumbo..the puranic tales and such did they? all they lost was understanding of discoveries by bhaskara and sushruta.

they are stupid and should be really scared of harimau.

Re: # 171
Mr. Jango (or Django), Panchagabya is not harmful. Ghee, Milk and curd is generic food item. Of the other two cow dung is used for fungal infection. I am not sure about medicinal value of urine, but Mr. Morarjee Desai used to consume his own urine for some ailment. The barbaric moslems had destryoed much of the knowledge of Ayurveda. Some are available as rituals (Use of Turmeric for holy bath).

Re: # 142
Unfortunately people like Vengatraman forget the essential facts. The Muslim Majority areas that formed Pakistan had absolute Muslim majorities... Sindh's Hindu population remains strong and so does that of Bangladesh.

Ans: Sindh had Sindhi (non -Urdooo/Moslem) population of around 24% in 1947. It is now 6%-8%. Bangladesh speaks similar story.

Re: # 172
Instead of China, USA had the power of creating industrial base, provided the country provides cheap labour and other ingrediants of industry. The country should be pro-USA. China has mostly benefitted in later stage of Indiastrilisation, where low cost product and high volume production is considered the viable model of generating profit.

Re: # 175
Muslims create trouble, whether they are majority or minority. In Indonesia (Muslim majority), Bali is hindu dominated area and very peaceful. It is target of Islamists. In India Mumbai, Delhi, Coimbatore, Bangalore, Varanasi, Jammu, Ahmedabad, Meerat moslems have created trouble. Neitherland had also similar experience.
The basic bararism incorporated in Islam is the root of all such problems. You can not bring any other theory and reason.

Manto,

Now, tell us if the minoroties (Ahmediyas, Christaians, Hindus) in Pakistan have ever tried or given the notion that they are undermining the sovereignty of Pakistan. Did they ever try to build a parallel system and started wringing their fingers once it fell apart.

To my knowledge, the minoroties in Pakistan have understood, very well, the length of the tether and are trying to be successful within the diameter caused by the tether.

You have a minority that complies to all the rules of the land and one that is not even remotely recalcitrant. There is a qualitative difference in the minorities of the two countries. Minorities (Muslims) of India and that of Pakistan are disparate in aspirations.

I am just curious to know if you have a minority caused bomb blast in Pakistan.

Having said that, I fully well understand that what Islamic Republic of Pakistan stands for and also the ideals of India. I am just trying to objectively spell out the differences, nonethless Muslims in India should be allowed to have their own aspirations, which does not harm the rest of the population.

Re: # 163
Pak Govt. site data specify that. Pakistan is notorious for Islam and people around the world are concerned about minority right in Pakistan (true for all countries where moslems are more than 50%. In the garb of Sharia and other mediaval middle east practise, freedom is limited for non moslems. Iran, Saudi Arabia, Malayasia, Bangladesh and Pakistan are couple of examples). Naturally Pakistani Govt. data will show more minority than the actual number.

#171 jang

[If an area muslim population increases over time thanks to immigrants means the immigrants find an accomodating environment. ]

You mean, like the Muslim immigrants in France? I am glad you think that the French are accommodating. The Muslims somehow don't seem to think so.

Now why is that?

#168 ISlamIslam

[Which means that the US didn't have to allow import of Chinese-made goods in to the country at all. Or, it could have imposed prohibitively high customs duties, effectively killing Chinese exports to the US. And those export-oriented items could have been made with US investment or Taiwanese investment or Overseas Chinese investment. It doesn't matter.

Not doing that was a way to "allow" China to rise.]


Let me respond to this dumbass post that suggests that the US was "allowing" import of Chinese goods because of strategic reasons to "allow" China to rise.

Here's an article from someone who actually knows what he is talking about, not some small-time IT manager talking big on an obscure Internet site:

http://www.chinanowmag.com/finance.htm

Here's an excerpt:

[Second, and perhaps even more importantly, the Chinese government policy of buying heavily in the U.S. debt market has contributed to much lower interest rates than would otherwise prevail. These low interest rates have been instrumental in keeping the U.S. economy from falling further and faster, including stimulating the aforementioned boom in housing.

In other words, public policies formulated in Beijing have actually been beneficial to the U.S. economy. Furthermore, cheap Chinese-made exports into the U.S. economy, the source of ire for U.S. government officials and politicians, have benefited American consumers. The effect of lower-priced consumer goods is to increase the real income of these consumers. They can buy more, and live better, than without these low-cost imported goods. The money saved on goods made in China may, in fact, result in increased purchases of the more capital- and knowledge-intensive goods manufactured in the United States, and may stimulate more spending on services and other goods that generate jobs in the domestic economy. It is, therefore, not quite so clear that an undervalued yuan (if, indeed, it is undervalued) is a zero sum game.

Is the yuan undervalued? This is also not as straightforward as it might seem. Yes, China is running a trade surplus with the United States because of the demand for low-priced, Chinese-made goods.....]

yar harimau, brahmin rituals come across as really stupid to most ..i mean why would you WILLINGLY eat panchagavya?

If an area muslim population increases over time thanks to immigrants means the immigrants find an accomodating environment.

#168 ISlamIslam

[WTO mandates free trade under certain rules and conditions. Prior to that GATT was in force whereby bilateral trade agreements were struck between countries. China was out of GATT under the Communists.

Which means that the US didn't have to allow import of Chinese-made goods in to the country at all. Or, it could have imposed prohibitively high customs duties, effectively killing Chinese exports to the US. And those export-oriented items could have been made with US investment or Taiwanese investment or Overseas Chinese investment. It doesn't matter.

Not doing that was a way to "allow" China to rise.

I know it is hard for you to comprehend. Just lie down with a pack of ice on your forehead. You will be all right in a couple of days.

The rest of your post: equally stupid. ]

Wow. What an imbecilic response.

I think you know that it is clear to anyone who is watching this debate that you don't have a leg to stand on, and your boneheaded conspiracy theories are no better than Zeemax's theories of the US Government plotting 9/11. Your hard-headedness in not admitting your ignorance is only adding to your long list of stupid utterances - like comparing China and Cuba, or Phillippines and China.

Boy, you ARE stupid, and uninformed.

So let's get to this latest piece of crass idiocy.

Here's something for you to read. It is a good primer. If you are not completely brain-dead, it would hopefully penetrate your thick skull that the WTO membership was a very difficult decision for China, and one that the international community had been insisting that China should join for about 2 decades. The thought that WTO membership was an answer to China's prayers to the US government is as goatbrained as any one can think of.

By the way, the author of this article belongs to the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard, not some small-time IT manager who likes guesswork over facts.

http://ksghome.harvard.edu/~asaich/China%20and%20the%20WTO.pdf.

I'l l post some of the relevant details here:


China as a Member of the WTO: Some Political and Social Questions
Tony Saich
Kennedy School of Government
Harvard University


China’s entry into WTO in late-2001 will be as important to its development in the Twenty-first century as the victory of the Chinese Communist Party in 1949 was to the Twentieth. Entry builds on the extraordinary economic integration into the world economy that has taken place since reforms began in 1978 and shows China’s leaders’ commitment to being an active member of the world economic community. At the same time, it presents new challenges for the leadership in terms of the level of foreign presence China is willing to tolerate and how destabilizing this presence will be to native industry. In addition, it raises fundamental questions about national sovereignty and the extent to which crucial decisions about China’s future development will be dictated or determined by factors beyond the control of Zhongnanhai.

Having negotiated entry terms for almost 15 years, the debate is only just beginning in China about what the real effects will be. Essentially, President Jiang Zemin and Premier Zhu Rongji realized that guiding the necessary concessions through China’s complex bureaucracy would only result in delay and potentially strong opposition. As a result they took the whole process out of the political system and kept information within a tight, leading group. Now that entry has been assured and the details of the agreement are being disseminated in China, its people and bureaucracies are becoming aware of what they have signed on to and how it will affect their lives. Judgment is mixed depending on where one sits and how one views the impact.
Certainly the agreements are dramatic. It opens up new sectors, such as telecommunications, to foreign companies that will be able to own up to 50 percent of joint ventures (not the 51 percent offered by premier Zhu in April 1999). Tariffs, which had been among the highest in the world in the early 1990s, will be reduced dramatically with those on cars falling from 80 to 100 percent to 25 percent by 2006, agricultural tariffs will come down from 31 to 17. 5 percent and 14 percent for US priority products, and will be eliminated for computers, telecommunications’ equipment and semiconductors. This should have the positive impact of reducing the rampant smuggling and corruption that has accompanied China’s high tariff barriers. There have been equally dramatic agreements for the financial and insurance sectors. China has agreed to full foreign access for US banks within five years. After two years foreign banks will be allowed to conduct local currency business with Chinese firms and this would be extended to individuals three years later. Currently, foreign banks are not allowed to conduct foreign currency business with Chinese clients (corporate or individual) and severe restrictions are applied geographically on the establishment of foreign banks.
Realization of the consequences of these agreements have caused some to raise alarmist scenarios of increasing unemployment, greater inequality, Chinese firms going under because of lack of competitiveness, and many being driven off the land because of lower and better quality agricultural imports. However, much of the alarmist literature overestimates the problems and attributes to WTO effects that are the result of the shortcomings of the old system. In this short piece, I shall look at two issues.

First, given the opposition and the potential short-term dislocation why did China’s senior leaders decide to pursue entry so vigorously at this time. Second, what are some of the key social and political consequences likely to be?

The Imperative to Join

So why did China agree to such a tough set of conditions, what does it hope to gain from entry, and how will it set off potential gains against costs? I would identify five principle reasons why China wanted to join at the present time. First and foremost, China had very little choice as not entering might have afforded protection over the short term for its
4
economy but would have shut it out from the significant and structural benefits that would accompany membership. For example, if China were outside of the WTO it would more easily fall prey to unilateral sanctions for not just economic but also its political behavior. China’s leaders had been shocked by the post-1989 burst of Western sanctions and have seen the US propensity to threaten sanctions against other regimes in the world that it does not like or that do not follow its policy lead. Also, although the multi-fiber agreement was a separate issue and China was protected until 2008, if it was not in the WTO it feared that it might become the target of textile quotas from a number of Western nations who would not be able to apply them to countries within the WTO.

Second, China’s desire to be an important player on the world stage means that it must be a member of key organizations to influence policy-making. Simply being outside was not acceptable and would not have fit with Jiang Zemin’s desire to project an image of an important country that needs to be consulted on major world affairs. Importantly, if China did not gain early entry, a number of decisions would be made that would affect its vital interests without it having any input. For example, trade in services and agriculture are looming issues, as are the questions of workers’ rights and environmental protection. On the first two, China has a strong economic interest in being part of the debate, whereas China does not feel that the latter should be a part of the WTO discussions. It needed to join before crucial decisions were made on such issues.

Third, a number of senior leaders seem to have concluded that without some strong external disciplining mechanism, economic reforms might grind to a halt as vested interests resisted further forward momentum. In essence there is nothing in the WTO agreement that does not support the leadership’s stated desire to move toward a market economy and especially on the SOEs and the financial system there will be pressure for more fundamental reform. It is always useful for a politician to have someone else to blame for tough decisions and in the case of China who better than the foreigners? As Woo has argued if growth in China has come predominantly from institutional convergence to a prototype economy rather than from its exceptionalism during the transition, then entry can only be of benefit to sustained long-term growth.1 Entry into the WTO will provide a line in the sand of reform that it will be almost impossible to retreat behind. It will bind subsequent leaderships to continuing economic reforms and increased internationalization of China’s economy.

Fourth, WTO entry will bring a number of specific economic benefits to China. With Chinese economic growth slowing during the late-1990s and the state investment programs showing limited signs of success at best, it is clear that new sources of growth must be found. A number of Chinese economists have suggested that WTO entry could add as much as two percentage points to growth, enough to add 10 to 15 million jobs. In particular, WTO entry would improve market access for Chinese goods to major markets in Europe, Japan, and the US, especially for textiles and fashion apparel, and telecommunications equipment. Further, Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) growth has not only slowed but in 1999 it actually fell. WTO entry is seen as a way to sustain FDI and to encourage more US and European investment to supplement Hong Kong, other Asian capital, and Mainland China ‘round-trip’ capital. In particular, China wishes to direct more FDI to develop the service sector that must expand significantly for China to be able to absorb the surplus rural labor and laid-off industrial workers. One unintended
effect may be increased foreign control over the private sector, which has been starved of funds because of official bias in investment policy that still favors the state-owned sector. If Beijing continues to prop up and privilege a moribund SOE sector, it may find that foreigners are funding and reaping the benefits from the fastest-growing sector of the economy.

Fifth, and far more speculatively, China may have seen some advantage in membership in terms of its political and increasingly strong economic relationship with Taiwan. WTO membership for both will increase trade and investment across the Straits and may give more impetus to restart talks on future political integration. Failing all else, the WTO will provide a mechanism for dispute resolution on economic issues between Beijing and Taipei.

Social and Political Consequences

As noted above a number of writers have begun to produce doomsday scenarios about the social and political unrest that WTO membership will bring to China. By contrast, a number of liberal intellectuals have welcomed WTO entry as providing an impetus not only to the further development of the market economy but also to a more rule bound and democratic political order. WTO membership seems to presume not only a liberal trading order but also an independent legal system that constrains government as necessary, transparency, accountability, and a relatively pluralistic political order. However, this is likely to take a long time to develop. In essence WTO entry is liable to continue trends that had been set in motion well before China joined the WTO. In this sense, it will rationalize and hasten the
demise of the old economic order and will privilege those newly emerging sectors of the economy in which China enjoys an international comparative advantage.

Ref Eklavya #134

[ajeya, ISlamIslam, dudes, what's with all this ego-metastisization?! Both of you bring unique and very valuable perspectives. And we can all be wrong once in a while. Give others the same benefit. Bashing each other is so counterproductive.]

I am an Equal Opportunity Abuser of Stupidity. I don't discriminate on the basis of National origin.

Ref ajeya #131

{[When did China join WTO? Look it up.]

2001. And your point is?

[How about GATT?]

Yes. How about it?}

As usual, your cluelessness is easily visible for all to see.

WTO mandates free trade under certain rules and conditions. Prior to that GATT was in force whereby bilateral trade agreements were struck between countries. China was out of GATT under the Communists.

Which means that the US didn't have to allow import of Chinese-made goods in to the country at all. Or, it could have imposed prohibitively high customs duties, effectively killing Chinese exports to the US. And those export-oriented items could have been made with US investment or Taiwanese investment or Overseas Chinese investment. It doesn't matter.

Not doing that was a way to "allow" China to rise.

I know it is hard for you to comprehend. Just lie down with a pack of ice on your forehead. You will be all right in a couple of days.

The rest of your post: equally stupid.

If true, it just means that these are meaningless comparisons but I am hardly the one bringing them up :).

Yasser,

I am not sure the migrant population in Punjab is accurately acocunted for but I will try to get back with more details. By the way what do you make of the fact that Fascist Modiland has a higher Muslim % than Hindoos of Sindh- the birthplace of MAJ (pbuh) and the (allegedly) secular PPP.

Regards

Re: # 162

What is the problem there at Chidambaram?

Majumdar,

Dostmittar answered your post:

"However, a qualification is in order, most muslims in punjab, outside Maler Kotla, are not Punjabi speaking but more recent migrants from other states. "

Hence the number is any event irrelevant to any discussion of partition.

Dostmittar, Majumdar,

Even if we assume that Pakistani census figures are accurate (which are contested universally), if you were to add those areas that were subject of partition Punjab and Bengal... there are more Non-muslims on the erstwhile Pakistani partitioned provinces of 1947 (West Punjab and East Bengal) than there are Muslims in their counterparts.

So I am not sure what anyone wants to prove through this discussion.

NKG,

I am afraid I cannot accept your claim as it based on propaganda and nothing else.

In any event, Pakistan's census tragically underplays minorities and a more reasonable estimate is that there are about 8-12% Non-Muslims (I am not counting the Ahmaddiya community- the number jumps if we add them)... Reliable Christian sources put Pakistani Christians alone at around 10-15 Million. Pakistani Hindus number between 2.5-4 million.

Ref Golt #161

[Do you need that for the Kumbakonam dikshithars?]

The Dikshithars are in Chidambaram, not Kumbakonam.

Just keep going to Tirupathi and get your head shaved.

Re: # 160


Do you need that for the Kumbakonam dikshithars?

Ref Golt #151

[...he started advising the farmers to perform yagams and had a numerologist side kick to suggest name changes for them. All this didn't help in good yields.]

What were the new names?

Were they along the lines of Tamil Selvan or Tamil Kudimagan? Or, more like Sudalaikkannan and Mannankatti?

Re: # 146
As per my experience in Mumbai and Kolkata, there are couple of muslims ghettoes ( sometimes called mini-Pakistan), which people even dare to enter at day time ( sometimes even police). This is example of terrified moslems!!!!

Re: # 146
Terrified Minority?
Moslems dominate the criminal space in India. Remember the haydays of Dawood Ibrahim, Chhota Shakil, Anis Ibrahim... these dons with Dubai as head office...

Yasser,

(In Indian Panjab the Muslim population is next to nothing. Infact, you will find a lot more Pakistani Sikhs in Pakistani Punjab than Punjabi Muslims in Indian Punjab.)

Haryana, HP and Punjab constituted the erstwhile Indian Punjab. The proportion of Muslims is 5.8%, 2.0% and 1.6% respectively.

(source: Census of India)

Proportion of Hindus in Pak Punjab 1.85 (incl SCs), Others (0.7%) which I suppose wud include Sikhs as well.

(Source: http://www.statpak.gov.pk/depts/pco/statistics/other_tables/pop_by_religion.pdf)

But I suppose 1.6% wud be next to nothing while 1.92% wud be a plurality!!!

Coming to Sindh the birthplace of the secular PPP and homeland of MAJ (pbuh)- the % of Hindus and SCs- 7.5%. By contrast the pop of Muslims in Hindoo fanatic Modiland -9.1%.

Regards

Re: # 132
If Ahmadis and Sikhs are more educated, then it may be their better social culture and value system. In India, Parsis and Anglo Indians are most advanced group. Does that imply, GOI takes special steps to promote them? Moslems are backward than upper caste hindus everywhere (UK and USA is nice example of it). So, backwardness of muslims in India is quite natural. Pakistan was created out of that fear (muslims can not compete with hindus in jobs. Job reservation in 1909 and 1919 by Lord Curzon had not solved the problem). Rather, the way Govt. of India pampers muslims (initially it was on the garb of minority. Now directly, 1000 crores for muslims alone!!!!).

Re: # 142
Overall non-moslem population is decreasing in Pakistan. Can you explain the decrease of overall numbers (not merely %)? In contrary, overall percentage of muslims are increasing in India. May be it is your islamic value system to lie. Just drift away litte from Islam, and be honest.

Re: # 131
In HDI index , Cuba was far ahead of China during 1970s. China may be permanent member of security council, but only member without it's own defence technology. They solely depend upon technology transfer from Russia. So, Cuba should have been preferred than China, if Cuba have deserted Russian block. The reason was geopolitical closeness. China and Pakistan is plced in between India and Russa. So, USA needed these two countries and tried to infuse some power in it.

Re: # 83
Oh, Pakistan will threaten USA for what? Couple of suicide bombs? If Pakistan is surviving, it is due to Arab Oil. When USA does not need that, they don't need to pamper Pakistan. After 9/11, they have shown that. Pakistan is no Vietnam (disciplined and hard working society).
Can you please elaborate Pakistan's strength? Taxi cab drivers in Europe, USA or Indian Restaurant owners/workers in Europe and USA, does not make it strong in the respective country. Only in one field, you are ahead of rest is breeding. That does not make any community strong.

#133 MantoLives

[So let me get this straight. You are saying that any Muslim who follows the Quran or believes in Islam is a terrorist? In other words anyone who believes in Islam is automatically a terrorist?]

No. He/she is automatically an enabler of terrorism, and responsible for supporting a movement that is MUCH more insidious and harmful for humanity than Communism, Fascism and Nazism combined.

Just like the party members of the Nazi party were not all evil people, but were all enablers of evil.

Re: # 149

The funny thing was, in addition to pawning his brain to the fertilizer companies, he started advising the farmers to perform yagams and had a numerologist side kick to suggest name changes for them. All this didn't help in good yields.

Let me know if you have time for more Brahmin stories.

Re: # 149

The funny thing was, in addition to pawning his brain to the fertilizer companies, he started advising the farmers to perform yagams and had a numerologist side kick to suggest name changes for them. All this didn't help in good yields.

Let me know if you have time for more Brahmin stories.

Re: # 147

Perfectly ok answer from you, considering the years of cramming your people have put in for generations.

Now, you got in deep shit when you tried to set that as the benchmark. I know a Brahmin mongrel, at Tirunelvely who topped the state and became an agri engineer, only to be brain fukced by the peasants on the street. He has no clue about what he has learnt. Let me know if you can provide a helping hand. Fyi He is closely related to Bharathiar.

Manto#142:

There is a significant number of muslims in what was east punjab. Here are the figures from 2001 census:

Chandigarh 409,615
Haryana 1,222,916
Himachal 119,512
Punjab 382,045

They add up to over two million muslims. New mosques are coming up in all major cities of Punjab - Ludhyana, Chandigarh, Amritsar. However, a qualification is in order, most muslims in punjab, outside Maler Kotla, are not Punjabi speaking but more recent migrants from other states.

Ref vengatramanan #143

[IslamIslam,

The other day, when I was asked to recite the DB connection code line by line, over phone, I just went blank. What's your inference?]

My inference is that you are a brain-dead Golt with an education obtained solely on the basis that you fit into some OBC quota.

Manto,

I am interested to know your pov on the Taslima attack in Hyderabad. The perpetrators were bold enough to come on NDTV/CNN-IBN to proclaim the validity of the fatwa on her.

Where's the terrified minority?

TN CM is bold enough: to be a Hindu aethist,to use stunning epithets against Hindus,
but never misses a ifthaar party and the
skull cap.

Manto,

You too sound equally simplistic, when trying to say that Muslims are discriminated by the state or the majority of the Indians. Did you ever think, a peaceful India is what the majority of Indians would want? A christian in India do not have to wear a veshti.

#142 Posted by MantoLives

In any country with a significant Muslim population, Muslims become the entrenched and implacable enemies of non-Muslims. There are always grudges - Islam khatrey mein hain, non-Muslims are communal etc. In EVERY country. I have spoken to non-Muslims around the world. It's ALWAYS the same.

Urstruly knows the reason for this. Mohammad still lies coiled in the brains of the Mullahs.

IslamIslam,

The other day, when I was asked to recite the DB connection code line by line, over phone, I just went blank. What's your inference?

ISafe,

Unfortunately people like Vengatraman forget the essential facts. The Muslim Majority areas that formed Pakistan had absolute Muslim majorities... Sindh's Hindu population remains strong and so does that of Bangladesh. Punjab saw a complete exchange of population. So the question of why the Muslim population is ascending is meaningless given that the accurate comparison would be province to province. In Indian Panjab the Muslim population is next to nothing. Infact, you will find a lot more Pakistani Sikhs in Pakistani Punjab than Punjabi Muslims in Indian Punjab.


Unfortunately simplistic arguments like the one Vengatraman put up has blinded our Indian friends from across the border.

#134 Eklavya

[ajeya, ISlamIslam, dudes, what's with all this ego-metastisization?! Both of you bring unique and very valuable perspectives. And we can all be wrong once in a while. Give others the same benefit. Bashing each other is so counterproductive.]

Well, maybe I was a little bit too direct in my first post to Harimau. In general, for me, he has been the pick of the posters, with comments that have been both knowledgeable and incisive. I have learnt a lot about Muslims and caste relations in India and in South India in specific, from his posts.

I think he is a very intelligent and well-educated person who thinks before he writes anything. Maybe that's why I was so surprised and upset by his post describing India and China as mere puppets of the US. I expected much better from him.

However, you are wrong about the ego bit. Who cares about ego. This is an anonymous site. And I'm not even looking to make friends.

IslamIslam,

Many of the forigners could not explain, why Java does not offer multiple inheritance. Does that mean all of them are zilch?

'The percentage of Hindus and Sikhs who did not cross the border and survived the crimes of partition has remained steady at 3-4%.'

How do you manage it?

re #135

This is a 'question' heard so often, but mostly from the same groups who have their own 'agendas'.

I am not hopeful that this brief description would help, but
anyways:

It is about the two census taken over more than 10 years apart.

First census was taken by the Raj, where in west India the Sikh/Hindu population was 21-23%.

Second census was taken a decade later by the Pak Gov.
where you have 3-4% Hindu/Sikh.

What is missing? The 9 million who crossed the border into India in 47-48. Missing also are the 10s of thousands of the innocent who were killed in 1947.

The percentage of Hindus and Sikhs who did not cross the border and survived the crimes of partition has remained steady at 3-4%. Not included in this are the tribals.

Could you please do us all a favor, and pass this along? Thank you.

Why would a government release casualty figures, a fraction of the actual?

Manto,

I was in Coimbatore, doing my engineering, when the blasts happened. Do you know how many Hindus died on that single day?

Re: # 132

Manto,

Why is that the Muslim population is always ascending in India? It defies your logic?

Do you have an explanation for the vastly reduced Hindu population, since partition, in Pakistan?

ajeya, ISlamIslam, dudes, what's with all this ego-metastisization?! Both of you bring unique and very valuable perspectives. And we can all be wrong once in a while. Give others the same benefit. Bashing each other is so counterproductive.

Mian laddu,

Sipah Muhammad was formed a counter group to Deobandi terrorist group Sipah sahaba. You may enlighten me on the acts of terrorism carried out by Hezbollah ... And please military targets in a war are not innocent bystanders and civilians.

So let me get this straight. You are saying that any Muslim who follows the Quran or believes in Islam is a terrorist? In other words anyone who believes in Islam is automatically a terrorist?

The discussion has qualitatively gone beyond TNT now because TNT was general enough to include every shade of Muslim from Ismaili to Ahmadi to even the cultural Muslim who otherwise was an unbeliever..so the islamic theology was not even the point.

I am more interested now in understanding this argument that the only good Muslims according to you are people who give up belief in Islam altogether and the rest the majority one billion followers are all terrorists? I find this a rather bigoted and fascist line of reasoning.

In other words, the mask of secularism is off your face.

Urstruly,

There is no question about that.

Despite all the discrimination, Pakistani Ahmadis are more educated, socially upward mobile and enterprising not just in comparison to the Indian Ahmadis but most communities in South Asia.

But let's not even take that as the basic comparison. Let's compare Pakistani Ahmadis' lot with the Indian Muslims.

Over the last 33 years since Ahmadis were excommunicated and subject of increased legal discrimination, the number of Ahmadis killed as a result of some religiously motivated attack .. 50 odd.

The number of Indian Muslims killed in the riots in just one day in 2001 ... 2000 +.

Now that is a far more damning statistic than the kind of numbers certain chowkies spin.

A more interesting comparison would be of property destroyed. But I don't have the statistics on that. All I can say that the main Ahmaddiya mosque in Model Town the Bait ul Noor is right down the road from the office of Jamaat ud dawa (yes indians it is lashkar e taiba) and yet not once has there been any problem between the two establishments.Not that I trust those JD freaks but one must give credit where its due.

Generally the problem with Pakistan is our insistence on superfluous inanities like the bar on non-muslims as head of state and the hudood ordinance which has rarely come into play. Otherwise if examined objectively Pakistan is much more secular a society on the ground than India can be...except even the most devout and bigoted of Hindus in India speak of secularism with a forked tongue (as seen by idiots on chowk) and even the most secular and liberal of Pakistanis (much more secular and liberal in lifestyle most Hindus) is under misperception that secular is a bad word.

One of the people I know and regard on a social level is our friend Ijaz Gul. He is perhaps one of the most well established and well connected Pakistanis around. He is a christian. Meeting him you won't feel even an iota of difference between him and other upper middle class well educated Pakistanis.

People like him and my late father have lived in this country with dignity and honor. And they have educated their children well.

In comparison, Shabbana Azmi and her idiotic husband are nothing if not Muslims in India. That is their central focus in life...all else flows from their Muslimness and how convenient a token they can be. And then after emphasizing their Muslimness, the generous act of wearing a Bindi to prove that look Muslims are good Indians. That becomes their central concern in life.

Needless to say no Christian goes around in Pakistan with their shalwars tucked up.

#100 ISlamIslam


[I waited breathlessly for your "informed" view of geopolitics. Fortunately, I could start breathing again within seconds.]

Your ignorance is excusable. What is not so excusable is that although you are a well educated man, you never took the time to look past the usual conspiracy theories and made the effort to educate yourself.

Actually I made a mistake. I should not have gotten involved in an argument with you. The theory that the US is "allowing" countries like China and India to "rise" (kind of like a "Arise, Sir Knight") like puppets at the end of a string is so ridiculous and childish that I should have just not commeneted. One should pick the people you want to argue with. However, since I have already started, I'll discuss it this once.


[I guess that same "nobody" is "allowing" Cuba under Castro all sorts of growth opportunities.]

China and Cuba are not the same thing. China is one of the most militarily powerful countries in the world, with a veto in the UN. Cuba is just a large island. It is a foolish comparison.


[There was plenty of choice. Just like in the 1950s through the 1970s, it was Japan, South Korea, Taiwan and Hong Kong, in the late 1980s, it could have been Indonesia or the Philippines instead of China, if it was economic rather than geopolitical considerations.]

Of course, I did say that there were geopolitical AND economic considerations - "The US, with it's economic and geopolitical compulsions, had absolutely no choice.".

I guess you never took the trouble to educate yourself on these issues. Here's a free primer:

After the disastrous failure of Mao's "Great Leap Forward" in 1960 (which was designed to transform China from an agriculture-based economy to an industrial economy), party moderates like Deng Xiao Ping and Liu Shaoqui proposed economic reforms in 1961. But because of internal politics, Deng had to wait till 1971 to actually implement his reforms, many of which were suggested by his predecessors like Zhou Enlai (Four Modernizations).

One of the "modernizations" involved decentralization of policy-making - in allowing local provinces and municipalities to invest in any industry THEY considered profitable. The municipalites and provinces, being low on capital, naturally chose to invest in light manufacturing. This proved to be one of the major successes in China because it led to rapid export-led growth. In contrast, the investment in heavy manufacturing came from the Chinese banking system - which in turn got the capital from Chinese consumer deposits. Under Deng's reforms, the profits were not to be reallocated except through taxation - the revenues generated from exports in light manufacturing were re-invested in products of higher and higher degrees of technological sophistication.

THIS is what started the industrial revolution in China. NOT FDI.

Of course, FDI accelarated China's progress. But it came mostly in the form of private businessmen, including Chinese expatriates using their contacts to invite FDi to China - mostly from Hong Kong, Taiwan and Japan, but also from Europe and USA.

The proportion of FDI from various countries can be seen here (scroll down past page 25):

http://www.nber.org/confer/2007/cwt07/foley.pdf

(in fact, read the whole article)




[That (having known him) and $4.50 would get you a latte at the local Starbucks.]

You have the attitude down pat. Now if only you had some substance.



[If the US wants to destabilize a powerful country such as Russia, it is not going to be through through a tiny country half-way around the world from the Soviets. Outer Mongolia just wasn't an option even though your friend's daddy might have considered that very carefully. China's geography (long borders with the Soviet Union), military power (nuclear weapons and huge army) and willingness to take punishment in a war (Mao is quoted as saying that he was prepared to lose 400 million Chinese in a war) made it the choice of US... short of arming Japan with nuclear weapons. That was not an option since the US was trying to prevent the spread of nukes.]

Read up on the history of the industrial revolution in China, before you make simplistic and foolish arguments about the whole thing being a CIA plot.



[Yes, it is the "brilliance" of its software engineers that has allowed India to capture the world markets.]

No, it was the enterpreneural spirit of Indians at grassroots levels that has allowed India to capture the world markets.



[ Ninety percent of the frikking code coolies I have interviewed cannot tell me why operator overloading and inheritance are both needed in an object-oriented language. I am sure, if you are a code coolie, you don't know it either.]

Maybe they are stumped by the inanity of the question. It's like asking why a bicycle needs both the seat and the handlebar.



[I have found better code coolies in Russia, Romania, and even Uzbekistan. And they work for cheaper rates than Indians despite having a rigorous education as opposed to fake degrees from "universities" in Jharkhand or Andhra or the quota graduates of Tamil Nadu.]

Yes, but how many of them are there? And what kind of companies do they represent?



[I suppose that is why they are trading with Cuba, importing its sugar and exporting it basic things like automobiles. (For those clueless idiots on Chowk, such trade does not exist!)]

Again, a ridiculous comparison. The expatriate Cubans are a powerful voting block that can make or break elections at the State level in Florida, which is also a crucial state in Presidential elections. US politicians have no intention of committing suicide by listening to the handful of businessmen who want to trade with Cuba.


[The US could have slapped heavy duties on China-made goods if the US corporations were going to import from China.]

Cheap Chinese goods help the American consumer. It also hurts domestic industries, and exports from other countries to the US. The US has always had to walk the fine line between the two. The US has slapped duties on Chinese products many times in the past decade. It is a accelerator-and-brake scenario, where the US tries to walk the tightrope between the two.



[When did China join WTO? Look it up.]

2001. And your point is?



[How about GATT?]

Yes. How about it?



[The US could have banned investments in China. It could have banned travel to China like it does with Cuba. Mattel is NOT bigger than the US government. Even IBM is not bigger than the US government and had to get permission to sell off its Personal Computer division to Lenovo, a Chinese company. And China was NOT allowed to buy Unocal or 3Com Corporation.]

Today, the US and Chinese economies are so intertwined that the demise of one would harm the other profoundly. China has been propping up the US Economy by buying its Treasury bonds which is really a loan that the US has been using to finance it's ballooning budget deficits and to buy goods from China.

You can find umpteen articles about this all over the web. Read for a change.

If USA had "planned" the "rise" of China, then they could not have done a worse job for themselves.

It would be difficult to say who is the puppetmaster and who is the puppet.




[I await your next "informed view" of how the world works with bated breath. ]

You should. Because you are talking like a child.

"First of all there are no shiite terrorists. "

So, Hezbollahs do not commit terrorist acts?
And ins,t Sipah-e-Mohammed Pakistan (SMP) a Shia terrorist group in Pakistan?

"The Pakistani deobandis take their lead from the Indian deobandi leadership. Indian deobandi fatwas are perhaps the most retrogressive and backward in the world."

Interesting, because the latest Indian Deobandi declaration does not seem to be re-iterated by the so-called followers of Deoband in Pakistan madarassas.


"As for TNT, I have already shown you that this is entirely unrelated to all these activities, given that it was a movement for the uplift of Muslims and was in any event unconcerned with theology."

You also agree that TNT is about muslim identity. I am yet to come across a "muslim" identity that does not involve the 5 pillars of Islam, the Islamic theology and its prescribed moral code of Sharia!!

Ref MantoLives #122

[As for TNT, I have already shown you that this is entirely unrelated to all these activities, given that it was a movement for the uplift of Muslims and was in any event unconcerned with theology. If anything the Islamization of Pakistan is contrary to the basic spirit of the TNT which implied that a permanent majority should not by sheer numbers oppress permanent minorities, something which Pakistanis have been doing.]

Folks,

That dear boy Yasser Latif Hamdani is right in stating that Pakistan was not conceived as an Islamic state by Jinnah-bhai.

Jinnah-bhai was interested in establishing a scientific country in certain portions of India that would be free from the superstitions of the Hindus. He tried his best to stay within a United India where Islamic Mathematics would be accepted by all, whereby 30% = 70%. Unfortunately for Jinnah-bhai, no mathematician nor politician came forward to accept this crucial axiom of Islamic Mathematics.

In fact, Jinnah-bhai had other theorems that would have shown that 1 is greater than 1 billion, etc., and essentially he was on a quest to prove that positive numbers are negative numbers. Since -30 is greater than -70, Jinnah-bhai's argument holds coherency when you apply this greatest discovery of Islamic Mathematics.

Jinnah-bhai realized that with Islamic Mathematics, in Pakistan the 10% minority would also have to be greater than the 90% Muslim population. This is proof of his secularism.

However, with the death of Jinnah-bhai, Pakistan veered from Scientific Islam and accepted that 90% is greater than 10%. In order to silence the supporters of Jinnah-bhai, they first reduced the 10% to 3% and adopted Western Mathematics which is kufr.

Thus Pakistan is both Islamic and kufr at the same time!

PS. Gandhi is a fascist bigot and is the cause of all problems Pakistan faces today. If it were not for the Deobandi madrassahs of India, Pakistan would be depending on Al-Azhar University of Cairo for its fatwas or on fatwasonline.com and be the most progressive country in the world. Pakistanis would be serving ham sandwiches and beer as appetizers at the end of the daily fast in the month of Ramadhan but for Gandhi the fascist bigot who used to sleep naked with his nieces.

PPS. Did I mention that Gandhi was a fascist bigot?

Ref Urstruly #126

[I have been carefully following this thread and deliberately did not post anything to divert the on going discourse. But realizing what happens to the Muslim minority in India and what Hindu majority has ion plans for them I think, in comparison, Quadianis (and other minorities) in Pakistan are indeed living in a utopian heaven. I guess, every minute of the day they must be gratful that they are living on this side of the border. What do you think YLH?]

Yes.

There are two million persons thronging the Pakistani High Commission in New Delhi clamoring to go to Pakistan, where they will get the same warm welcome the stranded Biharis in Bangladesh are getting.

How do you get Afghan hash in Detroit for you to be higher than a kite? Aren't the narcs on to you yet?

Ref zeemax #106

[{#102 Posted by dost_mittar,

I might add that Muslims in Singapore seem to be quite a happy lot.}

And why not because Singapore after all has a Crescent on its flag!]

So, if India changes the Ashok Chakra at the center of its flag to a crescent moon, you mufukkas will stop demanding Kashmir?

I have been carefully following this thread and deliberately did not post anything to divert the on going discourse. But realizing what happens to the Muslim minority in India and what Hindu majority has ion plans for them I think, in comparison, Quadianis (and other minorities) in Pakistan are indeed living in a utopian heaven. I guess, every minute of the day they must be gratful that they are living on this side of the border. What do you think YLH?

Re: # 117

Mohar,

One more advice to YLH. The real worst jihadis go one step further, they are gandhi look alikes, with only a loin cloth and a stick. In fact, not many know, gandhi carried the stick, and as a jihadi, that was a dynamite stick.

YLH, watch out for those gandhi look alikes, carrying dynamite sticks, in teh streets of pakistan.

What a progress for your gandhi-jihadi theory. It started with gadhi carrying dynamite stick, then jinnah changed it to TNT, now the osamas have changed it further to RDX.

#122 Posted by MantoLives on March 15, 2008 12:36:12 pm


The reason why Pakistanis madrassahs became famous was because they got upto a billion dollars a year in Afghan Jehad from the US and Saudi Arabia with the connivance of the ISI.


really...and what about the period between the soviet withdrawal in 1989 and now? what about the 90s when you kept the madrassahs going to produce jihadis to fight in india and afghanistan...

" These are your own"

I was not aware that you were privy to the identities of those responsible for the bombing today.

Again more fallacious thinking dear laddu.

First of all there are no shiite terrorists. Even the international terrorists are from the same salafi-ahle hadith school which inspired the ulema of deoband.

As for your claims about indian madrassahs not displaying the same amount of intolerance etc as Pakistani deobandi ones, I am afraid this is a false claim as well. The Pakistani deobandis take their lead from the Indian deobandi leadership. Indian deobandi fatwas are perhaps the most retrogressive and backward in the world. Surely you haven't forgotten the Shahbano, imrana and other such cases, where the deobandi ulema extracted their pound of flesh for services rendered against the Muslim League and Pakistan. Incidentally even Pakistan amended the Muslim family laws to make it more balanced for women in 1961 but same cannot be imagined in secular India because Congress is held hostage to its Darul uloom deoband vote.

The reason why Pakistanis madrassahs became famous was because they got upto a billion dollars a year in Afghan Jehad from the US and Saudi Arabia with the connivance of the ISI. Therefore militancy is simply a matter of opportunity in this case.

As for TNT, I have already shown you that this is entirely unrelated to all these activities, given that it was a movement for the uplift of Muslims and was in any event unconcerned with theology. If anything the Islamization of Pakistan is contrary to the basic spirit of the TNT which implied that a permanent majority should not by sheer numbers oppress permanent minorities, something which Pakistanis have been doing.

#120 Posted by laddu on March 15, 2008 10:44:32 am

gandhi's fault..I'm sure blockbuster will pull gandhi from it's shelves and put up jinnah instead...

These are your own.........whom you nurtured in your back yards........


One American woman killed in Islamabad blast
15 Mar 2008, 2257 hrs IST,PTI
Print Save EMail Write to Editor
ISLAMABAD: An American woman working in the US Embassy here was killed and 15 persons, including Chinese and Japanese, were injured when a powerful blast rocked a popular restaurant in the heart of the Pakistani capital on Sunday.

The explosion on the lawn outside the Luna Caprise restaurant occurred at about 8:40 pm local time, sending plumes of smoke in the air and creating a huge crater at the site.

Re: # 114

"Since all terror is deobandi in origin and deobandis were opposed to TNT then it negates all the rest of your arguments."

This is a false statement. It is refuted by the presence of Shia terrorists. Hamas and kashmiri terrorists are not deobandis. And Deobandis in India are yet to show the type of intolerance that is evident from Pakistani madarassas.
I think it is because Pakistani constitution considers "Islamic Principles" to be the basis of all acts and rules...and nothing can be ultra-vires to this.........which has been rightly interpreted by the mullahs that only they hold the key to interpretation of PAki constitution.and ofcourse complete conformity with Sharia is the "basic principle" of Pakistani consitution!!

Re: # 114

Ther is NO fallacy . I am not asserting that there is a coincidental correlation between Mohammadeanism and TNT.

Let us look intgo the "minority interest argument" again.

MJ was only negotiating for preservation of muslim identity.

TNT was required to preserve muslim identity.

muslim identity is based upon 5 pillors of Islam and Quran.

Thus TNT is based upon what Quran states to be the muslim identity.

Thus, TNT is bsed upon Islam.

QED.

Let us not fool ourselves. Every momeen knew what Quran says and what Pakistan was supposed to achieve- the only confusion was in the mind of MAJ. He thought that that Pakistan was a secular state but talked about "muslim" identity which was pre-dominantly based upon Islamic identity.

Yo YLH - you are still alive... good to know... feroz had a close call recently - suicide bomb went off a few hundred feet of where he was...

Be careful out there - jihadis, I mean gandhi-followers, are all over pakiland now...

BTW, manto..

did you hear about how the indigenous freedom fighters of the Lashkar-e-toiba, the kashmiri freedom fighting group, were responsible for the bombings in Lahore?

you know...the kashmiri freedom struggle you're such a big supporter of...

I hope nobody you know got whacked by the actions of the freedom fighters you supported...

no seriously..

is post hoc the newly discovered word of the day?

if you're going to use it in every post, at least use it right..

a proper use would be if someone, no one in particular, were to claim that gandhi supported the mullahs in the 1940s and lal masjid happened in 2007....hence gandhi caused lal masjid...

113,

Well yes...to a certain extent that is true.

But that disproves your post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy about Pakistan and TNT which renders your earlier 112 meaningless.

Neither prophet Muhammad nor the TNT have anything to do with Deobandi Islamic militancy since Deobandis denounced the TNT which you say can be traced back to Muhammad.

Since all terror is deobandi in origin and deobandis were opposed to TNT then it negates all the rest of your arguments.

All the mullahs were against Jinnah leading a truncated part of conquered land of India because that would mean relinquishing the conquered part of Islamic land.
Read Madani other mullahs , they only were against the truncated land of Pakistan.

Post facto , all the mullahs were rapid supporters of Pakistan-as-an-Islamic-state.........

Re: # 111

Acually the history of TNT can easily be traced back to Mohammad.........blame him for creation of Pakistan and the Jehadism.....

More of the same flawed "magical" reasoning. All I am saying is that Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc vis a vis creation of Pakistan is false.

What we do today is the direct result of our actions today and not of people who do not belong to this spacetime location.

#109 Posted by MantoLives on March 15, 2008 5:00:42 am

So gandhi is responsible for the daily bombings, the US bombing of paki citizens, pakiland being on the top 10 dangerous places and lowest on the tourism index?

hmm..I might have to revise my opinion of gandhi...

My good friends from across the border are busy repeating the fallacy that we know as "Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc".

The history of Islamic militancy in the subcontinent is quite clearly Deobandi specific. This is why they need to come up with a fatwa in the first place. Barelvi Islam - the adherents of which formed the mainbody of those TNT-ists everyone here loves to hate- never considered terrorism and militancy halal.

I don't like repeating the history lesson but I am afraid I have no option because such lies and misinformation should not go unchecked.

Achyuth Patwardhan, one of the Socialist stalwarts in the Congress, has given a remarkably candid and self critical analysis of the Congress Party vis-a-vis Khilafat: ’It is, however, useful to recognise our share of this error of misdirection. To begin with, I am convinced that looking back upon the course of development of the freedom movement, THE ’HIMALAYAN ERROR’ of Gandhiji’s leadership was the support he extended on behalf of the Congress and the Indian people to the Khilafat Movement at the end of the World War I. This has proved to be a disastrous error which has brought in its wake a series of harmful consequences. On merits, it was a thoroughly reactionary step. The Khilafat was totally unworthy of support of the Progressive Muslims. Kemel Pasha established this solid fact by abolition of the Khilafat. The abolition of the Khilafat was widely welcomed by enlightened Muslim opinion the world over and Kemel was an undoubted hero of all young Muslims straining against Imperialist domination. But apart from the fact that Khilafat was an unworthy reactionary cause, Mahatma Gandhi had to align himself with a sectarian revivalist Muslim Leadership of clerics and maulvis. He was thus unwittingly responsible for jettisoning sane, secular, modernist leadership among the Muslims of India and foisting upon the Indian Muslims a theocratic orthodoxy of the Maulvis. Maulana Mohammed Ali’s speeches read today appear strangely incoherent and out of tune with the spirit of secular political freedom. The Congress Movement which released the forces of religious liberalism and reform among the Hindus, and evoked a rational scientific outlook, placed the Muslims of India under the spell of orthodoxy and religious superstition by their support to the Khilafat leadership. Rationalist leaders like Jinnah were rebuffed by this attitude of Congress and Gandhi. This is the background of the psychological rift between Congress and the Muslim League’.

and

’Since the Khilafat agitation, things have changed and it has been one of the many injuries inflicted on India by the encouragement of the Khilafat crusade, that the inner Muslim feeling of hatred against ’unbelievers’ has sprung up, naked and unashamed, as in years gone by’.

and

A terrible and gruesome fallout of the disastrous Khilafat experiment of Mahatma Gandhi was the Moplah Rebellion in Malabar District in 1921. According to the Report of the ENQUIRY COMMITTEE OF SERVANTS OF INDIA SOCIETY, the number of Hindus murdered by Moplah Muslims was 1500, the number of Hindus forcibly converted 20,000 and the value of property looted about Rs three crore. When the national and local leaders appealed to the virulently anti-Hindu Moplah Muslims in the name of Mahatma Gandhi to follow the ways of peace and non-violence, they replied bluntly with Islamic fervour: ’GANDHI IS A KAFIR, HOW CAN HE BE OUR LEADER?’ Dr Anne Besant declared: ’The Moplah Muslim marauders murdered and plundered abundantly, killed or drove away all Hindus who would not apostatize. Somewhere about 100,000 people were driven from their homes with nothing but the clothes they had on, stripped of everything’. She also accused all the Khilafat religious preachers for all this terrible atrocities. J Campbell, chief of the Intelligence Department, Government of India, held the Khilafat leaders squarely responsible for inciting racial hatred resulting in Moplah carnage.

http://www.newstodaynet.com/2006sud/06aug/2208ss1.htm

Mahatma Gandhi’s attempt to harness the feeling for the cause of national independence backfired and led to the uprising in Kerala known as the Moplah Rebellion. It took the British several months to put it down at the cost of thousands of lives.



Moplahs were very much part of the grand Khilafat Movement that Gandhi was spearheading and Gandhi kept apologising for them


The Dravidian Moplahs had directed their revolt with class venom against some Aryan high-caste Hindus with property as well as Britishers: Brahmanical elements tried to use that to spark a crisis in Hindu-Muslim relations all over India. Gandhi tried to hold a balance: like the U.S. press and the Negro nationalists who read it he stressed that the Moplah uprising could be made part of a united drive for independence by Indians of all sects.But he was also aware of the pan-Islamic dimension: in a December 1921 call to the British to suspend their attacks against the Moplahs, he was to observe that the Moplahs saw themselves as fighting for a religion with methods they considered religious: Yogesh Chadha, Rediscovering Gandhi (London: Century 1997) p. 254.


And lets not forget the Tehreek-e-Hijrat Fatwa that Gandhi’s right hand man Azad gave to Muslims which gave Muslims two options "JEHAD" or "HIJRAT".

The Muslim Ulema, thinkers and activists called for the boycott of foreign goods and non-cooperation with the British government. Meetings were organised in order to rally the masses to support these issues. The meetings were organised under the banner of Mo’tamar al-Ansar (The Workers Conference) and various newspapers such as Al-Hilal of Maualana Abul Kalam Azad and The Comrade of Maulana Mohammad Ali Jauhar. Both Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad and Maulana Maulana Mohammad Ali Jauhar were put behind bars for publishing anti-British articles in their newspapers. The latter spent four years in prison between 1911 and 1915CE.


The allegiance of the Muslim intelligentsia of India at that to the Khilafah is unquestionable. Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad summed up their view when he wrote in his newspaper al-Hilal on 6th November 1912 that the Ottoman Sultans possessed the only sword which Muslims had for their protection. Insofar as the “caliphate was essentially a religious integration of the shari’a�, it became “necessary by revelation, is of God’s institution and that obedience to its authority is farz, or positively commanded�.


The Khilafat Movement


In September 1919, Maulana Muhammad Ali and his brother Shaukat Ali, together with Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad, Dr. Mukhtar Ahmed Ansari, and Hasrat Mohani, started a new organization, the Khilafat Movement (1919-1924). Their avowed aim was to use whatever leverage they had to protect the Khilafah. They organized Khilafat Conferences in several northern Indian cities. It is noticeable that the scholars and activists that were part of the Khilafat movement came from different schools of thought and backgrounds, for example Maulana Abul Kalam Azad was known to be a ‘ghayr taqleedi’ (non-taqleedi – who believed Taqleed to Mazahib is prohibited) and Maulana Mahmood Hasan was Deobandi who are followers of the Hanafi Mazhab yet they were united in the objective of working for the maintenance of the Khilafah.


In 1919, the Bombay Khilafat Committee agreed on two important organisational goals: “first, to urge the retention of the temporal powers of the Sultan of Turkey as Caliph, and second to ensure his continued suzerainty over the Islamic holy places.�

Delivering the presidential address at the Calcutta meeting of the Bengal Provincial Khilafat Conference in 1920, Maulana Azad discussed the importance of Khilafah he declared, “the purpose of this institution was to organise and lead the Muslim community in the right path, to establish justice, to bring about peace, and to spread God’s word in the world. For all this it was absolutely necessary for the caliph to possess temporal power�. Maulana Azad had no doubt that “without an Imam, their lives were un-Islamic and that they would be damned after death�.


Maulana Azad published a book in 1920 called Masla-e-Khilafat (The Issue of Khilafah), he stated: “Without the Khilafah the existence of Islam is not possible, the Muslims of India with all their effort and power need to work for this�.

In the same book page 176 Maulana Azad said, “There are two types of ahkam shariah, the first is related to the individual like the commands and prohibitions, the fara’id (obligations) and wajibat in order to perfect oneself. The second is not related to the individual but is related to the Ummah, nation, collective obligations and state politics like the conquering of lands, political and economic laws�.

According to Peter Hardy, Maulana Azad believed that, “The Muslim who would separate religion and politics for Muslims is an apostate who works silently�.


The loss of political power in India and the threat posed by a combination of forces to the temporal authority of the caliph, was so worrisome for the leaders of the Muslim community that some of them felt compelled to issue fatwas ‘in favour of migration (hijra)’ from India.


Maulana Abul Kalam Azad issued a fatwa which was published in the daily Ahl-e-Hadith of Amritsar on 30 July 1920. In his fatwa he urged Hijrat from India as an alternative to non-cooperation with the British. (YLH’s note: Was the Hijaz Born Azad a "Wahabi"... note "Ahle-Hadith)

Maulana Abdul Bari’s fatwa said, “every Muslim residing here should adopt non-cooperation but if (that is) impossible, should proceed for hijrat�. Maulana Shaukat Ali issued a statement on behalf of the Central Khilafat Committee, “expressing the hope that all dedicated Muslims would stay in India and work for the non-cooperation. Only if it did not succeed would they consider resorting to hijrat�. The impact of the fatwa was electrifying and thousands of Muslims preferred to leave the Dar al harb of India where their religious rights symbolized in the position of the Turkish Caliph was being infringed.


And most amazing was the fact that Gandhi’s encouragement led to Deobandi ulema creating the Jamiat ulema Hind ... which in its numerous forms and heads plagues South Asia even today... and all these groups are spin offs of the same.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=g4GjrwQmxAA&feature=related

Pakistan ka jhanda Lal Kile par pheharaeinge......Hindustaani kutte....kashmir ki azzadi tak jang rahegi..bhaarat ki barbaadi tak jang raheegi.........pakistan ka bachha bachha larega aur khoon bahaega......


Every one must watch the seeds of hatred sown in the minds of young in Pukistan by its Jehadi civilian masters!!!

Its a white wash by deobandians.......jehad can never be ejected from Islam how so ever ugly it be globaly for ummah.

#102 Posted by dost_mittar,

I might add that Muslims in Singapore seem to be quite a happy lot.

And why not because Singapore after all has a Crescent on its flag!

Eklavya #77

Pakistan's Domain of Relevance -

That is a very important topic. It is another myth that has been created by the fertile minds in Pakistan. Almost a spin off of TNT that requires persons to be in a "different" world in order to appraise Pakistan. It is like Musharaff refusing to accept that Kargil was a disastor , instead considered it to have achieved its objective.
That is the schizophrenic attitude that has been taken by Pakistani government, military and the entire establishment that puts the portrait of Jinnah and mouth praises to TNT in order to justify their existence.

To think that Pakistan has created a world of its own that requires its own standards of appraisal is the typical relativist propaganda of the Islamist.

Ref dost_mittar #102

Can you tell me if India does not allow the first three items on your list?

Not doing the other three was just more sops to the Mozzies.

Ref dost_mittar #102

[I think that the Singapore model could have worked. Before you ask, this is what I think is the Singapore model in brief:

- Muslims are treated as equal citizens and 'almost' no discrimination in jobs, housing, social services etc. 'Almost' because at least when they had friction with Malaysia, Muslims were not allowed in the air force to save them from any potential "dharma sankat".]

In a similar manner, Malaysia doesn't take Chinese into its Armed Forces.

They just want to ensure that there aren't any chinks in their armor. :-)

Eklavya#73:

"How could Gandhi/Nehru not have encouraged muslims, as a group, to have an identity that was separate from non-Muslims, and was ummah-oriented?"


I think that the Singapore model could have worked. Before you ask, this is what I think is the Singapore model in brief:

- Muslims are treated as equal citizens and 'almost' no discrimination in jobs, housing, social services etc. 'Almost' because at least when they had friction with Malaysia, Muslims were not allowed in the air force to save them from any potential "dharma sankat".

- Muslims had full religious freedom to practice the five pillars of islam - shahadah, namaz, zakat, rozas and hajj.

- Muslims got holidays to celebrate their religous occasions, could wear hijabs, beards, etc.

- Muslim schools could only teach approved syllabii and were closely monitored for adherence.

- Mosque sermons have to follow strict guidelines approved by sarkari muslims and are closely monitored.

- No ummar oriented demonstrations or activities are allowed.

I might add that Muslims in Singapore seem to be quite a happy lot.

Ref Eklavya #94

[ajeya, on the other hand, your #92 was pretty good.]

Already formed a Mutual Admiration Society with ajeya, haven't you.

Too bad you couldn't have waited six hours to let me catch up on my beauty sleep.

Read #100

Ref ajeya #92

#91 by ISlamIslam

{[India will be allowed to grow as a counterweight to China, just like China was allowed to grow to counter the Soviet Union.]

This is a very uninformed, "aam junta" view of how things work in this world.}

I waited breathlessly for your "informed" view of geopolitics. Fortunately, I could start breathing again within seconds.

[Nobody "allowed" China to grow.]

I guess that same "nobody" is "allowing" Cuba under Castro all sorts of growth opportunities.

[The US, with it's economic and geopolitical compulsions, had absolutely no choice.]

There was plenty of choice. Just like in the 1950s through the 1970s, it was Japan, South Korea, Taiwan and Hong Kong, in the late 1980s, it could have been Indonesia or the Philippines instead of China, if it was economic rather than geopolitical considerations.

[Not that it changed my view, but I used to work with an American guy whose father was pretty high-up and actively involved in diplomatic negotiations with the Chinese for many years.]

That (having known him) and $4.50 would get you a latte at the local Starbucks.

[The US actaully grabbed on to the Chinese option like manna from heaven.]

If the US wants to destabilize a powerful country such as Russia, it is not going to be through through a tiny country half-way around the world from the Soviets. Outer Mongolia just wasn't an option even though your friend's daddy might have considered that very carefully. China's geography (long borders with the Soviet Union), military power (nuclear weapons and huge army) and willingness to take punishment in a war (Mao is quoted as saying that he was prepared to lose 400 million Chinese in a war) made it the choice of US... short of arming Japan with nuclear weapons. That was not an option since the US was trying to prevent the spread of nukes.

[Similarly, nobody "allowed" India to grow by "aiding" India.]

Yes, it is the "brilliance" of its software engineers that has allowed India to capture the world markets. Ninety percent of the frikking code coolies I have interviewed cannot tell me why operator overloading and inheritance are both needed in an object-oriented language. I am sure, if you are a code coolie, you don't know it either.

I have found better code coolies in Russia, Romania, and even Uzbekistan. And they work for cheaper rates than Indians despite having a rigorous education as opposed to fake degrees from "universities" in Jharkhand or Andhra or the quota graduates of Tamil Nadu.

[Political figures in Washington have only so much power over international trade and commerce. The best they can do in intervene here and there strategically. But for the bulk of it, the big financial corporations shape the trade policies to their own advantage.]

I suppose that is why they are trading with Cuba, importing its sugar and exporting it basic things like automobiles. (For those clueless idiots on Chowk, such trade does not exist!)

The US could have slapped heavy duties on China-made goods if the US corporations were going to import from China. When did China join WTO? Look it up. How about GATT?

The US could have banned investments in China. It could have banned travel to China like it does with Cuba. Mattel is NOT bigger than the US government. Even IBM is not bigger than the US government and had to get permission to sell off its Personal Computer division to Lenovo, a Chinese company. And China was NOT allowed to buy Unocal or 3Com Corporation.

I await your next "informed view" of how the world works with bated breath.

HAHAHA....perfect reply to pakiland's protests...

seriously..change your name to condomistan

Afghanistan fires 4 more missiles at Pak village

By Ali Afzal Afzaal

PARACHINAR: Four more missiles fired from Afghanistan fell on the border village of Boraki in Kurram Agency on Friday evening, a day after a strong protest was lodged with the US-led coalition forces over the attack on a Pakistani village that had killed four persons.

Official sources said the missiles fell near a checkpoint manned by the paramilitary Frontier Corps (FC). The troops, however, remained safe as none of the missiles exploded. A senior official of the political administration, while requesting anonymity, told The News that the missiles were fired from the neighbouring Paktia province of Afghanistan. He said they did not know who was the target of these missiles.

"We have informed senior government functionaries of the firing of missiles from across the border," said the official. He said the missiles fell about 500 meters inside Pakistani territory and frightened the soldiers and residents of the adjoining villages.

The official said senior military officials based in Parachinar, the regional headquarters of Kurram Agency, also visited the border village and took the missiles into possession. Top military spokesman and DG ISPR Maj Gen Athar Abbas, when reached by telephone, told The News he, too, had received similar reports but the local military officials in the area could not confirm the same. "It cannot be confirmed whether these were missiles or mortar shells and also there were no details about reports that these missiles were fired from across the border," explained the DG ISPR. He said the attack didn't cause any casualty.

It may be mentioned here that four people, including two minor girls and two women, were killed in North Waziristan Agency a few days back when five artillery shells fired from across the border by the US-led coalition forces hit a home in the border town of Lawara Mandai. The government for the first time admitted foreign aggression and lodged a strong protest with the military representatives of the coalition forces based in Islamabad.

ajeya, without realizing it perhaps, you are taking the Islamist line: the US is using Pakistan. The Islamist line is that the (bad) US is using Pakistan. While your line is that the US is using Pakistan (like a condom).

The truth is that Pakistan has consistently used the US, as well, with unusual success. They have done that by being very very intelligent in their dealings with the US. It cannot be easy to be a 'leader' of the Ummah, and to pursue the Islamic agenda Pakistan has pursued, and STILL be an 'ally' of the US.

It will be very foolish for a state like Pakistan to issue direct threats to the US.

Give Pakistanis credit where they truly do deserve, including credit for being reasonably intelligent like the rest of us.

#96 Eklavya

[ajeya, for a country like the US there cannot be permanent alienations nor permanent friendships.]

Permanent in this context means for an appreciably large number of years. LIke Cuba has been in the shithole for decades. I think we all know that nothing is permanent in the world - one day the sun will burn out.

[Consider what the 'first sign of trouble from Pakistan' (or from any other state) would consist of? Does being played, being double-dealt, constitute sign of trouble? Do you think the US has had at least some inkling of these things over the last decade or so?]

But that's not what you said. You were talking about "threatening US interests". Pakialnd will be in the shithole so fast that it won't know what hit it.

[Ajeya, like any other state, the US wants to keep its cost of doing business around the world as low as possible. And Pakistan, as an ideological state, with close links to global Islam, can potentially increase or reduce that cost.]

I don't think so. If it did, it would not be getting bombed by the US army on it's own soil. Although I can sense your affinity for Pakistan (for whatever reason - religious, family-related or otherwise), you are way wrong on this issue. It is obvious to the blind that Pakiland has been bending over whenever Uncle Sam wants it to. Like when the American general threatened to bomb Pakiland back to the Stone Age.

Sorry. Your Pakiland is being used like a condom. And will be discarded eventually.

ajeya, for a country like the US there cannot be permanent alienations nor permanent friendships.

Consider what the 'first sign of trouble from Pakistan' (or from any other state) would consist of? Does being played, being double-dealt, constitute sign of trouble? Do you think the US has had at least some inkling of these things over the last decade or so?

Ajeya, like any other state, the US wants to keep its cost of doing business around the world as low as possible. And Pakistan, as an ideological state, with close links to global Islam, can potentially increase or reduce that cost.

#94 Eklavya

[ajeya, on the other hand, your #92 was pretty good.]

I would much rather that you called it "pretty accurate" than "pretty good".

I think #93 was pretty accurate as well. The fisrt sign of trouble from Pakistan would permanently alienate Pakistan from the US, and pretty much make it THE MOST pariah of nations. Even with all the sucking up that Pakistani establishment does, it is still viewed unfavorably by the West. I have talked to Americans who are fully aware that Pakistan is a "friendly" state only because they are of use to the US for fighting terrorism. Otherwise, Pakistan is popularly known as Terror Central. Any false move by Pakistan and it will be relegated to the shithole for good. And all EU countries would join the bandwagon wholeheartedly. So I don't think Pakistan holds any aces up it's sleeve. Not after the disintegration of the Soviet Union. The US can get to the Caspian oil in many ways. If they have to.

ajeya, on the other hand, your #92 was pretty good.

1. The US has large but limited powers. It faces its own, economic and geopolitical compulsions, as you put it, particularly against other large players.

2.It can be played like a fiddle by smart, well-placed players, even small ones, like the kosovons and the Israelis.

As would everyone else, the US would LIKE to possess omnipotence, but it doesn't have it. It simply exercises a great deal of influence.

#83 Eklavya

[American must realize that Pakistan can make enough of a difference in world affairs to threaten the US or its interests.]

That is as eminently boneheaded as anything I've ever heard. Simply breathtaking in it's boneheadedness.

Astounding.

#91 by ISlamIslam

[India will be allowed to grow as a counterweight to China, just like China was allowed to grow to counter the Soviet Union.]

This is a very uninformed, "aam junta" view of how things work in this world. Nobody "allowed" China to grow. The US, with it's economic and geopolitical compulsions, had absolutely no choice. Not that it changed my view, but I used to work with an American guy whose father was pretty high-up and actively involved in diplomatic negotiations with the Chinese for many years. The US actaully grabbed on to the Chinese option like manna from heaven. Similarly, nobody "allowed" India to grow by "aiding" India. Political figures in Washington have only so much power over international trade and commerce. The best they can do in intervene here and there strategically. But for the bulk of it, the big financial corporations shape the trade policies to their own advantage.

Ref jang #89

[harimau, some baniyas in northrop grumman and boing are trying to get in bed with india but if pentagon had its way, it would have little to do with india. its a very unreliable "strategic" partner..with commies and swadeshis in a parliamentary system govt it can never count on anything. pakistan is a much better bet with a determined military and somewhat unified nationalism.]

The US has long-term strategic planners in every department, including the Pentagon and the State Department. Decisions are taken after analyzing short- medium- and long-term implications.

If the decision to aid India is taken with a short-term view, then the equipment offered would have limited life and limited capabilities. Even then, they would be bugged with software viruses that can be remotely activated to render them useless should the conflict in which they are used does not meet with the approval of the US.

The capabilities may be better if the idea is to support India over the medium term; but the ability to cripple the equipment still remains.

India still will not be able to buy nuclear submarines and submarine-launched ballistic missiles even if it signs a formal treaty of alliance with the US. That was given as an exception to only the UK, not even France.

They have studied Pakistan to death and have concluded it has no chance of surviving as a viable state. Hence, Pakistan will be used as a condom and discarded.

India will be allowed to grow as a counterweight to China, just like China was allowed to grow to counter the Soviet Union. Once China is fractured into several countries just like the Soviet Union was, the US will attempt to dismember India in the same fashion. But that is 50+ years into the future.

India's strategy should be to use the US to grow its capabilities while keeping the country intact.

The first step for that would be to ban all the caste-based or one-state-only parties. Mayawathi and her Bahujan Samaj would have to go. So would the DMK, ADMK, Telugu Desam, etc. That would leave the BJP, the Commies and the pseudo-Commies called the Congress.

That is the bad news for India.

79/#81 Posted by Eklavya

Although Pakistanis can do whatever they want, it is truly tragic that sundry Sindhis, Pakhtoons, Punjabis and everyone else there would want to kill and bomb the very people who are most committed to Pakistan as a state and who have clearly sacrificed the most to build their greatest stake there.

Yes, actually it's beyond tragic. It is quite unbelievable in its ignorance and hubris. I had read that Daily Times Op-Ed too. But, I'm sure that person would have done some serious rethinking since then, just as some interactors on these very boards who held the same views have been rethinking their positions.

HP had asked on the other board as to when have the FATA people listened to reason? I said 1947-2005. He said no, only till 1978. At-least he concedes they were not 'criminals' till 1978 and only turned into that afterwards.

harimau, some baniyas in northrop grumman and boing are trying to get in bed with india but if pentagon had its way, it would have little to do with india. its a very unreliable "strategic" partner..with commies and swadeshis in a parliamentary system govt it can never count on anything. pakistan is a much better bet with a determined military and somewhat unified nationalism.

Ref Eklavya #77

[Pakistan is a large country with nuclear capabilities. Within sixty years it has already established itself as the Ummah's most powerful member and the most active leader. Its thinkers and leaders are shaping and moulding the Ummah.]

King Faroukh of Egypt said 60 years back, "Pakistanis think Islam was invented on Aug 14, 1947."

I notice the delusion hasn't ended.

majum dada, glad you enjoyed, although, perhaps unintentionally on my part? :)

IslamIslam, other than Sikhs, and some Buddhists, may be, Indic people don't count in such matters. To be counted, one has to develop boundaries first. Don't you think?

Ref Eklavya #83

[American must realize that Pakistan can make enough of a difference in world affairs to threaten the US or its interests.]

So, have you got your T-Shirt with the Pakistani flag on it ready? I assume you plan to wear that T-Shirt and wave your green passport nonchalantly at the Immigration counter at JFK airport as you land there in a PIA plane.

What is it I heard lamenting the fact PIA is not even allowed to fly to most European countries whereas India's private carriers are getting landing rights?

[That's more than what many would say for India.]

Yes. That is why the US is offering Pakistan nuclear reactors and fuel along with co-production possibilities if they buy American warplanes, something they are most definitely not offering India!

Ref Eklavya #77

[Pakistan is a large country with nuclear capabilities. Within sixty years it has already established itself as the Ummah's most powerful member and the most active leader. Its thinkers and leaders are shaping and moulding the Ummah. It's rock solid. All Muslims - nationalists, Islamists - are behind it. By no means it is a flop nation.

After loss of direction initially, Bangladesh too is on its way.

India, by comparison, is nowhere near attaining similar status in its own domain of relevance and interest - the non-Ummah world. We are making some progress, but even the most optimistic of us wouldn't call India the most powerful nation of the un-Ummah.]

Un-Ummah includes Christians and the Chinese/Japanese/Confucianists besides the Hindus.

Among Hindu nations, India is by far the biggest.... considering that the only Hindu nation is Nepal which is also going to become secular under the Marxists who were trained at Jwahirullah Nehru University.

Wait for Nepali Muslims to get a Haj subsidy; it won't be long.

Kaal bhai,

Thanks for #77. It brought a much bigger chuckle on my face than anything else I read today!!!

(Pakistan is a large country with nuclear capabilities. Within sixty years it has already established itself as the Ummah's most powerful member and the most active leader.)

USSR too was a large country with nuke capabilities and it had established itself as the Marxist Ummah's most powerful member and the most active leader. I hope this was not the precedent that you had in mind.

(Its thinkers and leaders are shaping and moulding the Ummah.)

Have you been spending much time with Yasser mian lately???

(After loss of direction initially, Bangladesh too is on its way.)

A nation which is both BONG and MOMIN can go only ONE way but that may well be my personal prejudice so I will not get into it any further.

The other issue of course is that half of B'desh will be under the sea in 15 years time, although to be sure, they can get their compensatory lebensraum in WB and NE.

Regards

PS; Never mind if I didn't agree with some of your post's conclusion, I thoroughly enjoyed #77.

nkg, a LOT of people do care about such things.

And don't forget, the USA does not (have to) threaten weak and incapable states. American must realize that Pakistan can make enough of a difference in world affairs to threaten the US or its interests.

That's more than what many would say for India.

Re: # 77
Who bothers about Pakistan's status in Ummah? Your President had admitted publicly that Richard Armitage had threated to bomb Pakisthan to stone age. Is that sign of power? Pakisthan is viewed as breeding ground for terrorists, most dangerous place on earth. Does this look dignified? Your ummah is surviving on arab oil. Let that finish, ummah will vanish. Do you think your old,North Korean missiles will be able to prevent USA/NATO from destroying Pakistan? I am not saying overall, India is doing good in economically. But the sign is very healthy ( education, health, industry, technology) in most of the sectors.

zee, I have to tell you, I still can't get over the piece by one of Dailytimes editors, suggesting that Islamists should 'swatted' like the flies that become too much of a nuisance.

That mindset and language one expects from chaltahai, arjun, even jayp, who after all come from a completely different background....

--------------------------

nkg, BIMARU states of India will remain BIMARU. Nothing can be done about them.

Whatever is happening in Bangladesh is happening on its own accord.

Re: # 77
Bangladesh has made some progress, largely due to Indian influence on AL. They implemented most of the pro-people measures India suggests and what is implemented in West Bengal. India is dragged by MP,Rajasthan, Bihar, Orissa and UP. You improve these states, India will look far better. Pakistan is far behind, and will be for quite a long time.

Thanks, zee.

Although Pakistanis can do whatever they want, it is truly tragic that sundry Sindhis, Pakhtoons, Punjabis and everyone else there would want to kill and bomb the very people who are most committed to Pakistan as a state and who have clearly sacrificed the most to build their greatest stake there.

There is a limit to how big, and how brazenly one can ask for, a free lunch, paid for by others.

#77 Posted by Eklavya,

We are simply witnessing another cycle of dealing with unIslamic internal elements who had recently stopped playing ball honestly with Islamists.

This is accurate. The Islamic forces basically grabbed the anti-Islam establishment by the scruff of the neck, lifted it off the ground, slapped it hard, and forced a regime change within a year. It's now upto the political Government to make suitable amends, or they too will perish.

In that respect the statement released right after the elections was clear "We congratulate the newly elected representatives, and expect them not to repeat the mistakes of the previous regime".

majumdar dada

Pakistan is a large country with nuclear capabilities. Within sixty years it has already established itself as the Ummah's most powerful member and the most active leader. Its thinkers and leaders are shaping and moulding the Ummah. It's rock solid. All Muslims - nationalists, Islamists - are behind it. By no means it is a flop nation.

After loss of direction initially, Bangladesh too is on its way.

India, by comparison, is nowhere near attaining similar status in its own domain of relevance and interest - the non-Ummah world. We are making some progress, but even the most optimistic of us wouldn't call India the most powerful nation of the un-Ummah.

-------------

Probably we mistake what is happening currently in Pakistan as a sign of 'failure.' IMO, that is a wrong view. We are simply witnessing another cycle of dealing with unIslamic internal elements who had recently stopped playing ball honestly with Islamists.

Peace will return soon if all Pakistanis go back to playing by the same rules and with integrity. Otherwise, it will be a while before unIslamic elements in Pakistan are fully pacified.

This is a natural process unfolding, well, naturally.

#64 Posted by dost_mittar on March 13, 2008 3:24:22 pm


Indian Muslims are double victims.


Seeing as how muslims are behind in the US, UK and pretty much everywhere else, muslims are the ultimate victim..

now would you like a refill of the koolaid?

the circle of jerks gather
saffroned all over
HP dipped his wicker
got poxed all over

Kaal bhai,

(The only way was to give Muslims a separate country.)

&

(And Gandhi/Nehru messed that up big time.)


2/3rd of (undivided) India's Muslims did get a separate country where most non-Muslims were killed, converted or driven out of the country and the balance who remained got used to dhimmitude.

So why did Pak and B'desh flop as nations. Surely the Hindu racist, casteist, fascist, misogynist, bigoted freak could not have been solely responsible for that.

Regards

DM

"Nehruvian policies which encouraged them to have a separate, ummah oriented identity instead of becoming part of the Indian mainstream."

How could Gandhi/Nehru not have encouraged muslims, as a group, to have an identity that was separate from non-Muslims, and was ummah-oriented?

Let's forget Gandhi/Nehru, dm ji. How can ANYONE today, in 2008, not encourage Muslims as a group, to have a separate, ummah-oriented identity?

May be Canada has succeeded, I don't know.

The only way was to give Muslims a separate country. A country specifically for Muslims would allow Islamists to dress themselves up as nationalists, if and when they wanted.

This was the most convenient and most moral option. And Gandhi/Nehru messed that up big time.

Furthermore...
DM, I agreee, majority ( Hindu) people are partly to blame for social isaolation as well. Neither we allow them in our celebration, nor we participate in their celebrations, may be the main reason. Both Congress and BJP need to be blamed for this mess.

So the RSS thread is still going?

we might have to call shiv sena to stop the non sense on this board!

Re: # 64
The jehadis caught by Karnataka Police have mostly studied in Govt. sponsored colleges. This defies your logic. I can feel the root cause of problem. Chronologically and quality wise Indian civilisation was much superior than moslems. The evidence is everywhere. Due to social turmoil, moslems had acuired power. With coersion and incentives they were able to bring some of the lower caste people into their fold. The coersion method have not worked for India (the way it had worked in Persia/Iran) fully ( Killing of Ayengars by Tipu Sultan, Story of Guru Gobind Singh). Now, after British has come, the brute force, by which these guys used to capture power, failed. Furthermore, British education has empowered Indians as well as created a united identity of India. Now, muslims can not frighten Indians. Neither, they can prove the utility of this mediaval practices in current India. So, the ghettoisation. Now, fuelled by Arab money, muslims are now trying to flaunt their pro-arab identity. When people mock and reject it, violence starts. For example, muslims students fasting according to some arabic calender. Why a college in India have to adjust it's academic calender to this? So, the student feels alieneted and then these students forms group like SIMI and try to harm Indian administration.

Ref treetop #67

[Yes,the problem is with muslims.They are used to rule,
they cannot accept servile status]

Muslims are like the white trash that votes Republican in the US even when the Republicans are screwing them. Just like the white trash believes the Republican crap that hard work will make them millionaires like the Republican Party leaders and vote for tax cuts for the rich, Muslims think that they were the rulers of India. 99% of Muslims were working as farmers and leather workers; a miniscule group of Muslims, mostly Afghans, were freeloading on them and leading a royal life.

Brain dead diaper-heads!

Ref dost_mittar #64

[Indian Muslims are double victims.]Nope, they double-faulted.

They demanded Pakistan but didn't move there: first fault.

They willingly went into their ghettoes and stayed there instead of coming out and attending schools and colleges like Hindus, Sikhs, Jains, Buddhists, Parsis and Christians did: double fault.

They double-faulted when the game was 30-love in favor of Hindus. So the score now is Advantage Hindus.

Tough sh!t.

Re#59
Yes,the problem is with muslims.They are used to rule,
they cannot accept servile status[ unlike hindoos]

The best way to eliminate the Muslim vote bank is to eliminate Muslims from the voting rolls.

Pakistan dealt with its Hindu minority by expelling or forcibly converting them.

Since that seems to be ruled out as a choice (I wonder why), the simplest step would be to deny Muslims the right to vote.

Since it is agreed that the Muslims of UP, Bengal and Bihar were the primary movers behind Pakistan and that the Muslim population in Punjab and Sindh was not agitating for a separate Pakistan, there is no reason to accept India's Muslim population as full loyal citizens of India. Denying them electoral rights would be consistent with their stand that they wanted to live in a separate country. If they won't move their, fin. They just don't get to vote in this country.

That would mean the end of the Congress Party too.

Good riddance to bad rubbish!

While at it, the same thing should apply to Christians. Anytime the Christians demand minority reservation in government and Hindu educational institutions but do not provide reservations for anybody in Christian-run institutions, it is double dipping: what is mine is mine and what is yours is also mine. For that attitude, the Christians should be denied voting rights in India.

Ref dost_mittar #64

[Indian Muslims are double victims. First, they are victims of Nehruvian policies which encouraged them to have a separate, ummah oriented identity instead of becoming part of the Indian mainstream. Secondly, they are victims of the Hindu nationalists who still believe in the two nation theory and dont accept muslims as full fledged Indians.]

This is totally false.

Were Muslims given separate constituencies? Were they told to enroll only in separate schools?

No.

Indian Muslims chose all this voluntarily.

So, don't blame Hindu Nationalists for the Muslim mindset.

Why are some Indian Muslims waving the Pakistani flag in cricket matches between India and Pakistan? When half the Indian team is Muslim?

nkg:

Indian Muslims are double victims. First, they are victims of Nehruvian policies which encouraged them to have a separate, ummah oriented identity instead of becoming part of the Indian mainstream. Secondly, they are victims of the Hindu nationalists who still believe in the two nation theory and dont accept muslims as full fledged Indians.

Re: # 61
Most of the muslims in India were busy for food, shelter etc...When Arab $ takes care of it, they will fight for Islam. So, far, flow of Arab $ was concentrated in Pakistan and Bangladesh. BD is now turing into another Afg. It has taken around 20 years to arabize BD ( they have fought for the language and script they have inherited from their ancestors. Now, everywhere, they use Arabic. Radical change happened in last 20 years.) Such can happen in India also. Even 2 years back, people of Karnataka have never expected this islamists/jihadists in their soil. But it is reality now. Muslims are muslims after all. You can domesticate a dog and make it eat milk, biscuit, rice, dal etc...sleep on sofa etc... but that does not turn it into human. Given opportunity, you can not stop the dog from eating shit....

I am not aware of the situation in Pakistan. But the situation in Bangladesh is pretty poor. Any decent Bengali family are target of moslems. First they will create such a situation that, you will not be able to live peacefully there. The final assault will be on young girls. I know couple of Bangladeshi girls, who are married in border districts of West Bengal (24 PGS, Nadia etc.) in quite young age ( bellow 18). They simply emulate Muhammed, the barbarian and his co-robbers. The only way left for the wretched families are to submit or leave BD and settle in West Bengal. The total population of Bengalees has reduced from nearly 35% to less than 10% now. And the number is reducing...I am pretty sure, this barbarism can be defeated by whites....

Re: # 58

nkg,

The most advanced and coordinated jihadi recruitment was for the afghan war. Not even a single indian was found in guntanamo, while muslims from australia to sweden were there. No doubt, the ones from teh west were seeking adventure.

The fact is that for the indian muslims, there are role models, and they can see that with studies and hard work, they can come up. For the pakistanis, they have no hope, all that they see is corruption and they beleive that jihad will get them out, a true sharia implementation will be the road to prosperity.

That is why there is no way out for pakistan, other than a true jihadic war.

#53 Posted by dost_mittar on March 12, 2008 8:44:17 pm

well...given that, azim premji and the lack of indians in gitmo, i'd say things are pretty good for muslims...

can't have it both ways...

#54 Posted by dost_mittar on March 12, 2008 8:47:27 pm

muslims claim persecution in every country that is non-muslim....

if you set the koolaid aside for a minute, do you think, perhaps, the problem is with muslims themselves?

Re: # 21
The foundation of Indian Constitution is very good. Special privilege and protection for ethnic minorities should be part of a decent democracy. But, that should not include moslems, sikhs, christians. Some ethnic groups in north east, who are very few in number, should enjoy such privilege. Instead of protecting their rights and cultural identity, we are busy promoting mediaval middle east culture (Islam/Christianity). Now, the actual vulnerable groups are struggling to survive its culture against Christian missionaries. RSS has also joined the bandwagon. Orissa, Tamil Nadu, Andhra Pradesh , MP. The identification of minority was the basic problem. I have heard that J N's father was clerk under a moslem lawyear. So, he had to pay gratitude towards moslems.
I am not blaming muslims for their problem. But, the social condition, what we have inherited from British, was not better. Those who were ahead during that period, they have benifitted more. Muslim backwardness was an issue during British period also.
Coming back to Deoband, do we need it now? What is the implication of this fatwa? Does police, court, parliament recognise it?
DM, you were talking about Tamils in Srilanka and Malayasia. In these countries, Tamils are discriminated. Even if Tamils are less in number, they do not want any favour. The same rule should apply for every citizen in these countries. Backwardness of native Sinhalese and Malays has prompted the Govt. to adopt such policy ( preference in jobs for Malays and Sinhala people). But, when that exceeds limit, it creates unrest.
Regarding Jihad in India, I am expecting that very soon. The bad example of Bangladesh and Pakistan may repeat in India. Huge amount of Middle East money invested in mosques and madressahs will produce some sort of animals, which will not be able to integrate with Indian society and culture. The more crude oil price increases, more the problem will be visible. Europe in sensing it now.

laddu#56:

One might say that Hindus have now started whining because of 8 years of "enlightened Islam" rule Of Musharraf.

Re: # 54

Dm ji,

That was a tu quoque fallacy.

Yes, there are cases of minority prosecution in India. But that is irrelevant to the argument.

I just refuted your and Kaale Khan's suggestion that Pakistan or Islam SOLVES the communal problem!!!

laddu#various:

Do you think that it is possible to find several cases of Muslim persecution in India as well? Just go to any Indian Muslim website, such as Milligazette.

ISlamIslam#49:

May not be for IAS or IPS but you would perhaps agree that approach is needed for lower level posts.

And don't be simplistic about madrassas; Indian madrassas can be quite good; in fact, a report last week showed that Madrassa Board students show a 91% success rate, better than any other board than ICSE;

"Bihar madrassa board next only to ICSE: Report
25 Feb 2008, 0157 hrs IST,TNN

MUMBAI: Here's something for Maharashtra Navanirman Sena's Raj Thackeray as well as his uncle and inspiration, the founder of Shiv Sena, Bal Thackeray, to chew on: If class X students from across the country were to take a common exam, who would perform the best?

Believe it or not, students from Bihar's madrassa board would stand high, second only to students of the ICSE board in Delhi.

Comparing the performance of educational boards across India, the HRD ministry has just released a report on student performance in various states in class X.

The results have the Council for the Indian School Certificate Examination in Delhi topping with the highest pass percentage of 94.3%, followed by Bihar State Madrassa Board with a success rate of 91.4%. The Central Board of Secondary Education, Delhi, stands third with a pass percentage of 86.4%.

The report compares 2005 data across the country. Madhav Chavan, founder of educational non-profit Pratham, said the findings contradict the "stereotype that madrassas are religious training schools". It vindicates "the historical view" that a voluntary process of education that involves progressive elements in a society coming forward to educate the backward sections often results in a successful model for formal education, he said.

Unlike other boards with a large student base, both the ICSE and madrassa boards have lower student populations taking the exam. States like Tamil Nadu, Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka, West Bengal have lakhs of students sitting for the class X exam.

Peggy Mohan, a linguist and a former JNU professor, said that the madrassa board, being run on a smaller scale, was probably more flexible than such "regimented state boards".

Some experts countered that boards handling lakhs of students see a diverse mix whose results may vary on the basis of several factors. Basanti Roy, divisional secretary of Mumbai, Maharashtra State Board of Secondary and Higher Secondary Education, said of the approximately 15 lakh students who took the class X exam in the state, a large population came from the rural hinterland which lacked good teachers.

The state board thus enjoyed higher success rates in smaller, urban pockets."

This BBC report provides the correct evaluation of Hindus in Pakistan-

"Pakistan is home to some 2.5 million Hindus, 95% of them living in the southern Sindh province.

Most are poor, low-caste peasants.

However there are also some successful upper caste businessmen. In Sindh, they are a hot commodity for bandits.

They lack the protection afforded to local tribal Muslims."

Hindus are dhimmi slaves , bonded labours or under protection of momeen goons!!
That is the way Pakistan has SOLVED the communal problem.

Hindus feel the heat in Pakistan
Riaz Sohail
BBC News, Karachi

Kidnap victim Garish Kumar
Wealthy Hindus like Garish Kumar are targets for kidnappers
The kidnap and murder of a Hindu engineer in Pakistan's southern province of Sindh has increased the insecurity among fellow Hindus.

Garish Kumar disappeared last month near Hyderabad city, 250 km (160 miles) from the port city of Karachi in Sindh.

His dismembered body parts were later found near a madrassa (Islamic religious school).

Police initially said the crime was committed by an outlawed Muslim militant group. Five people were arrested.

However, Hyderabad's police chief, Shaukat Shah, the incident now seems to be a simple kidnapping for ransom case.

Minority report

Kumar's father, Saspal Das, is a trader from Kunri town in Sindh's central district of Umerkot.

Poor Hindus in Sindh
Most Hindus are poor peasants and serve as bonded labour

"No one listens to the Hindu minority," he complains. ""We have no security.

"We are targeted because we are Hindu. There is no other reason for kidnapping Garish."

Pakistan is home to some 2.5 million Hindus, 95% of them living in the southern Sindh province.

Most are poor, low-caste peasants.

However there are also some successful upper caste businessmen. In Sindh, they are a hot commodity for bandits.

They lack the protection afforded to local tribal Muslims.

Whole tribes often go to war with one another in rural Sindh over any slight to their members.

That cushion is not available to the Hindu minority.

Protection money

In recent years kidnapping for ransom and armed robberies have multiplied in the area and Hindus have increasingly been the focus of attacks.

Hindu men
Hindus have to pay thousands of pounds to avoid kidnapping

Many pay protection money regularly to local gangs or influential figures. But in spite of this they are still targeted.

Santosh Kumar, a rice trader from Larkana town in upper Sindh, and his two brothers were kidnapped in separate incidents in 2006. They were later released after paying a huge ransom.

Another wealthy trader from the nearby city of Sukkur in Sindh, Sundeep Kumar, was kidnapped in 2005.

He was released after paying a ransom of over a million rupees ($16,000), according to local sources.

The ransom can sometimes go up to five times that amount.

But not all Hindus are as rich as Sundeep Kumar.

Last August, a youth, Ramesh Lal, was kidnapped. His relatives could not afford the ransom, and his body was later found at a police check post.

In the last three years at least five Hindu traders have been killed after being kidnapped or offering resistance.

"Powerful oppress the weak"

Ramesh Lal, a Hindu MP in Pakistan's parliament says, "The Hindus are not as rich as portrayed."

"Often the kidnappers ask a huge amount that the families cannot pay. As a result the hostages are killed."

Hindu women
Even Hindu women and children are not spared by the kidnappers

The President of the Hindu council in Sukkur district, Mukhi Aishwar Lal says, "the powerful always oppress weaker communities... Hindus are weak so they are targeted."

He relates how a few years back a Hindu family travelling by local bus were kidnapped by local bandits, while rest of the passengers were allowed to go.

Around that time some foreigners were also kidnapped in the same area. The police secured their release without any payment, but the Hindus were released after a huge ransom was doled out.

Such incidents increase the feeling among Hindus that they have no say in power and authority in the country.

Political apartheid

In Pakistan's political system, the minorities, such as Hindus, Christians and Sikhs, remain outcasts despite represented in every major political party.

After Gen Pervez Musharraf seized power in 1999, he scrapped the controversial separate electorate system introduced former dictator Gen Zia-ul-Haq in 1980s.

Under the separate electorate system, non-Muslims could only vote for candidates of their own religion. Seats were reserved for minorities in the national and provincial assemblies.

Critics said Muslim candidates no longer had any incentive to pay attention to the aspirations of the minorities.

Gen Musharraf hoped to reverse that by the simple step of abolishing the system. But that appears to have failed.

Sudham Chand, a Hindu community leader who led a local campaign to scrap the separate electorate system was killed in broad daylight. His murder conveyed many a message.

The killers were not arrested. His brother later migrated to India.

Ramesh Lal, a member of the National Assembly, says that the restoration of the conventional electoral system is of little use if the minorities have no security.

And still, he complains, no one asks the minorities what problems they are suffering.

Losing faith

Mukhi Aishwar Lal agrees that Hindus in Sindh are still afraid.

Saspal Das
Garish Kumar's grieving father, Saspal, wants justice

They are frightened to move outside freely. Some even put themselves under a self-imposed curfew after 2000 hours a few months ago.

"No-one is targeting the minorities," argues Kishanchand Parwani, Advisor for Minorities' Affairs to the Sindh Government.

But he admits that, although the minorities are supposed to be equal citizens according to the constitution, the reality is different. He accepts that they feel like second class citizens.

Garish Kumar's father, Saspal Das, still retains faith in the system: "I will fight till I get justice for my son."

But many Hindu families who stayed in Pakistan after partition have already lost faith and migrated to India

Re: # 47

In the age of internet it is not possible for Islamic states to HIDE their prosecution of kafir population (whatever is left of after the slaughter and assault).

Ref dost_mittar #40

[How do they compete in the "approach" department?]

What do you mean by that?

IAS, IPS, etc., are based on competitive examinations. Two years backm the District Superintendent of Police in Nagapattinam district was a Muslim. He has since been transferred to some other post.

Syed Munir Hoda is a Secretary in the Tamil Nadu state government, close to Docgtor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion. From his name, one would guess he is not Hindu, Christian, Sikh or Jain, leaving only one conclusion as to his religion.

Let these fcukers study in a regular school rather than in madrassahs and go compete with Hindus the way Christians, Jains and Sikhs do. Shhesh, most Hindus in Tamil Nadu want their kids to study in Christian schools, knowing that the nuns and monks would instill strong discipline in them.

Hindus targeted in Balochistan

Minorities, particularly Hindus and Ahmadiyas, continue to face a wave of violations in Balochistan, the area where Pakistan conducted its nuclear tests on the orders of President Musharraf in October 1999. The native Baluchs experience a severely degraded status since the occupation. Although the exact number is unknown, more than 5,000 Hindus were forced to escape from the unrest in Balochistan and enter Sindh in 2005. Militant Muslim groups have desecrated Hindu temples, set their homes on fire, and destroyed Hindu shops and property. Here too, Hindu females, particularly school students, are forcibly converted to Islam.[lxxxvii]



On March 21, 2005, sixty civilians were killed and one hundred and fifty were injured in Dera Bugti, Balochistan when Pakistan’s Frontier Corps attacked the town with “artillery shelling, rockets, and indiscriminate machine gun fire.� Among those killed were innocent Hindu women and children as well as dozens of Bugti tribesmen.[lxxxviii]
Depiction of Hinduism in School Textbooks

Extracts (translated from Urdu to English) from the government-sponsored textbooks approved by the National Curriculum Wing of the Federal Ministry of Education demonstrate the derogatory and inflammatory portrayal of Hinduism to the youth of Pakistan:[lxxxix]



· Grade IV: “The religion of Hindus did not teach them good things, [and the] Hindus did not respect women.�

· Grade V: “The Hindu has always been an enemy of Islam.�

· Grade VI: “The Hindu setup was based on injustice and cruelty.�

· Grade VII: “Hindus always desired to crush the Muslims as a nation [and] several attempts were made by the Hindus to erase Muslim culture and civilization.�

· Grade VIII: “Before Islam people lived in untold misery all over the world.�

· Grade X: “Islam gives a message of peace and brotherhood…There is no such concept in Hinduism.�

laddu#42:

So, you are disproving ek's and my theory; hindus are now able to whine in Pakistan.

Hindus in Pakistan allege humiliation

B. Muralidhar Reddy

An abducted Hindu girl married one of her abductors and embraced Islam

ISLAMABAD: Minority members of the Pakistan National Assembly have alleged that Hindus were being hounded and humiliated to force them to leave Pakistan.

They were taking part in a discussion on a calling attention motion on the abduction of a Hindu girl in Sindh province who has since married one of her four abductors and embraced Islam.

Responding to the motion, Minister of State for Interior Wasim Shahzad said the girl was abducted on September 14 and a case was registered the same day. "Two of the four abductors were arrested," he said.

The Minister said the girl gave a statement in the court that she has married one of the abductors and embraced Islam at Dargah Amrit Sharif. "In the light of her statement the court dismissed the case."

"Sensitive issue"

A member, Gyan Chand Singh, however, said her kidnapping fell in the category of rape and a case should be registered against the abductors. "It is a very sensitive issue which brings a bad name to the country," he said.

The Minister said the case was registered the same day the girl was abducted. "Everything is clear now after her statement in the court," he said.

Another member, Krishan Bheel, said many Hindu men were being kidnapped for ransom in Sindh.

"These incidents are taking place to force Hindus to leave Pakistan where they have been living for the past 5000 years," he said.

Another member, Ramesh Lal, claimed that the abducted girl was only 17 years old and she was not an adult. "According to Hindu laws a girl cannot marry till she is 20," he said.

Mr. Gyan Chand said that in view of the nature of the issue, a house committee should be formed to sort out such matters.

ISlamIslam#41:

That is, of course, yesterday's news. Let's see what the news channels are saying today. The Congress is flip-flopping so often on this issue that it is difficult to know what is going to happen.

KIDNAPPING GIRLS AND FORCIBLY CONVERTING THEM TO ISLAM

Jan 2006: Sindh's Stolen Brides : Hindu Girls Forced into Islam
Hindus continue to be the target of kidnappings, rape, and intimidation in Pakistan. There are reports of desecration and destruction of Hindu temples and lands, theft and looting of Hindu property, discrimination, abuse, and abduction of Hindu females.

Violence towards Hindu Women
A worrisome trend in Pakistan, particularly in the Sindh province, is that of Muslims kidnapping Hindu girls and forcing them to convert to Islam. One of the most egregious cases of intimidation and kidnapping of young Hindu women occurred in September 2005. On September 14, Hindu parents alleged that four men abducted their daughter in Sindh, and forced her to marry one of the accused and convert to Islam. The authorities arrested two of the abductors, but the court dismissed the case when the girl was forced to provide a legal statement that she willfully married and converted. Gayan Chand Singh, a legislator in Pakistan’s Parliament, said that the kidnapping should be categorized as rape and should be registered as such an offense for the abductors.

In a similar case, Sapna Giyanchand was taken to a shrine in the Shikarpur District by Shamsuddin Dasti, a Muslim married man and father. She was converted to Islam, her name changed and married to a Muslim man. When Sapna’s case was presented in court, Muslim extremists deluged her with rose petals and chanted religious sayings. Sapna, terrified by the setting, could not manage to speak to her parents, who were also present in court. Aziz, also in attendance, is claimed to have said, “How can a Muslim girl live and maintain contact with kafirs ?�

In a recent investigative report it is described how young girls, as young as 12 or 13, have been kidnapped in Sindh, converted to Islam, and forcibly married to Muslim boys. Kidnapping Hindu girls like this has become a normal practice. The girls are then forced to sign stamp[ed] papers stating that they’ve become Muslims. At least 19 similar abduction cases have taken place in Karachi alone, and 6 in the Jacobabad and Larkana districts. Wasim Shahzad, the Minister of State for Interior, upset legislators in the National Assembly when he was quoted by the state-run APP news agency as saying, “These incidents are taking place to force the Hindus to leave Pakistan where they have been living for the past 5,000 years.�

In a shocking incident, it was reported that three young Hindu girls had suddenly coverted to Islam. The three girls, Reena (21), Usha (19) and Rima (17) – daughters of Sanno Amra and Champa, a Hindu couple living in the Punjab Colony section of Karachi, Pakistan – went missing on October 18, 2005. Only after desperate queries to the police, the parents received affidavits stating the daughters’ conversions to Islam. Private visits with their daughters, free from chaperones and even police officers that have supervised their only interactions thus far, have been consistently denied. After their disappearance from home, the girls have been living at a madrassa (Islamic seminary) in the vicinity of their home and may potentially be denied the freedom to return home.

Kidnap Hindu, Force Marriage to Muslim
January 04, 2007 12:00 PM EST




Sanao Menghwar has had three of his daughters kidnapped, then forced to marry Muslim men. That means that the young women were coerced into becoming Islamics.

This happens daily, particularly in the Pakistani Sindh province, according to Hasan Mansoor, reporter, Midday.com.

Other Hindus in the province worry when their daughters will disappear. Therefore, there are entire Hindu families leaving Pakistan for Canada, India or other nations.Menghewar and his wife left their house on errands. When they returned to their residence, their daughters were missing. They reported the missing young women to the police department, filing the necessary papers. Neighbors helped them on a search party to locate the daughters, but to no avail.

Menghwar’s daughters have yet to be found. However, authorities have arrested three Islamic young men assumed to be connected with the girls’ kidnapping. The men have been released on bail by a court due to the men being minors.

"’Kidnapping Hindu girls like this has become a normal practice. The girls are then forced to sign stamp papers stating that they’ve become Muslims,’ says Laljee Menghwar, a member of the Hindu Panchayat in Karachi."

Because of extremist Muslim threats, Hindus have had to turn to what those in the Netherlands are resorting to. Both areas have been under extreme pressure from maiming and killing Islamics so that the local citizens have put into action what one person refers to as "self-censorship."

There is no talk. There is no public utterance. There is nothing said negatively about the Muslims in the area for fear of being slain.

So it is that extremist Islamic killers international could overtake country after country, area after area. Instill such fear in the people that no one speaks the facts concerning local extremist Islamics kidnapping and killing; therefore, they have open skies to do just that — more so.

"’Hindus here are too frightened to vent their anger — they fear victimization,’ said one local."

Minority members of the Pakistan National Assembly have alleged that Hindus were being hounded and humiliated to force them to leave Pakistan.[9] Hindu women have been known to be victims of kidnapping and forced conversion to Islam.[10] Krishan Bheel, a Hindu member of the National Assembly of Pakistan, came into news recently for manhandling Qari Gul Rehman.[11]

Hindus in what is now Pakistan have declined from 23 % of the total population in 1947 to less than 2% today. The report condemns Pakistan for systematic state-sponsored religious discrimination against Hindus through bigoted "anti-blasphemy" laws. It documents numerous reports of millions of Hindus being held as "bonded laborers" in slavery-like conditions in rural Pakistan, something repeatedly ignored by the Pakistani government.

Dost-Mittar writes [I think that the Congress Party has taken the decision to go ahead with the Indo-US nuclear deal despite the staunch opposition to it by the Communist parties...]

Sonia Gandhi has declared that there will be no elections this year. That means no nuclear treaty with the US and China and its fifth-column in India will be happy.

ISlamIslam#36:

"They can compete for it if they want. Why should they be given quotas for being retarded Arab-wannabe's?"

How do they compete in the "approach" department?

ISlamIslam#35:

I don't know about Jinnah but Maulana Maudoodi was quite consistent. He said that Muslims should accept the status of shudras/malechha in India just as Hindus should accept dhimmi status in Pakistan.
So, give some credit to islamists for being consistent.

[why do you make your name so difficult to spell correctly?]

Ref dost_mittar #14

[In what sense are the muslims getting more than their share in India? Certainly not a greater share in the army, police, bureaucracy or economic pie in general]

They can compete for it if they want. Why should they be given quotas for being retarded Arab-wannabe's?

majumdar#33:

I have been reading Pakistani newspapers for over ten years now. The only minority voices being raised are that of Christians, the voices on behalf of Hindus are also raised, but not by them but by human rights or the PPP activists based in Sindh.

Ref dost_mittar #4

[Indian Muslims do have choices and they are exercising it, this is why the Congress is worried. In the post-babri masjid period, Muslims have been voting strategically on a constituency basis to vote for the Candidate with the best chance of defeating the BJP candidate. This will continue. The best Congress can hope for is for Muslims to vote for it when the choice is between non-bjp candidates.]

Congress is the new Muslim League of India!

Ref dost_mittar #31

[Unless in India, minorities in Pakistan were never promised a rose garden, MAJ's August 1947 long-concealed speech notwithstanding.]

Jinnah-bhai knew exactly what fate awaited the minorities in Pakistan. He said they would be hostages who would ensure the good treatment of Muslims left behind in India.

Yaaser, dear boy, come on; pipe up on this issue.

Ref nkg #16

[Actual ethnic minorities like Anglo Indians, Persians, Jews never complain about discrimnation or special law to protect their cultural identity.]

That is because they have not perfected the art of whining "They made me do it. Poor me! Woe unto me" the way Muslims have done for 1400 years.

Nor did they have that pseudo-Hindu Jwahirullah Nehru espousing their cause.

DM sahib,

If India's minorities happened to be 3% of the population and that too divided between 2-3 groups of 1% each, they too wud not have complained (too much) about discrimination even if they had been promised the rose garden.

Btw it is not as if Paki minorities have not raised their voice against discrimination only since their voices are very small they ain't heard.

Regards

PS: Thanx for referring to my (and Yasser's) fave speech.

Re: # 31

How did Pakistan solve its communal problem???

By turning into an Islamic state??

How the dhimmi-model is superior to the "sarva-dharma-sambhav" secular model??

majumdar#30:

When I said "communal" as it is understood in India, it relates primarily to hindu-sikh-muslim thingy. Problems beween arya samajis and sanatanis or between sunnis and shias fall into sectarian category.

In Pakistan, you still have a sizeable number, around 5 million people belonging to minorities and that proportion has remained constant since early fifties. It's not the numbers but the "terms of endearment" that is important. Unless in India, minorities in Pakistan were never promised a rose garden, MAJ's August 1947 long-concealed speech notwithstanding.

DM sahib,

When I was referring to minority problem I was referring to its "religious minority" problem and I am sure Kaal bhai too was referring to the same. I am sure he cannot be unaware that Pakistan has hardly had a great track record in dealing with LINGUISTIC minorities.

(Pakistan did not get rid of its minority "community". )

Well they did reduce the religious minority pop to 3% (from c.20% before 1947) which is not a bad achievement by any means, although not as good as Ataturk sahib's Turkey.

Regards

majumdar#25:

"Get rid of the minorities, you get rid of the minority problem as well."

Two errors. Pakistan did not solve its minority problem, only communal problem, with "communal" as it is understood in India.

Secondly, Pakistan did not get rid of its minority "community". If you understand Urdu, its solution is best described by the urdu expression "tadapnay ki ijaazzat hai Na furyaad ki hai".

Pandit Ladduji Maharaj,

(What is that Pakistani model?? )

Explained in #25. Get rid of minorities, get rid of minority problem as well.

Regards

Re: # 23

"We in India need to immediately adopt the Pakistani model. That would be better for everybody and will avoid long-term problems."

Kaale Khan Saheb,

What is that Pakistani model??

Kaal bhai,

Further to #25.

There is no guarantee that Proposition #25 wud solve the minority problems. New minorities can always be generated!!!

Regards

Kaal bhai,

(Pakistan has a MUCH better model of dealing with minorities)

True. Get rid of the minorities, you get rid of the minority problem as well.

Regards

eklavya#23:

"We in India need to immediately adopt the Pakistani model."

Not so fast, eklavya bhayya, you might end up losing your other thumb as well.

It's difficult to snatch even a toy from a child once you have given it to him and you are talking about a community which knows how to defend its rights. Even the weasly Hindus in Srilanka and Malaysia are protesting when their rights are being taken from them. In India, you would have a full fledged jihad, this time supported if not sponsored by darul uloom itself, if you try to impose something unacceptable to them. The majority community will be best served by accepting the settlement bequeathed to them by their netas.

Come on, guru ji, you worry too much about daughters. Something has to happen to them, why not marry them off to the majority community?

guru ji, Pakistan has a MUCH better model of dealing with minorities, as evidenced in the relative peace between the majority and minority communities there, and the significantly higher level of minority satisfaction levels in Pakistan. (Before you ask if I have measured their level of satisfaction, I have certainly not heard them complain as much as our minorities.)

We in India need to immediately adopt the Pakistani model. That would be better for everybody and will avoid long-term problems.

Wah Mitter!

Pakistan solved communal problems just as Idi Amin solved problem of human suffering by cooking him and eating. Pakistan solved it by declaring itself utra Islamic state .. making religious minority third class citizens who do not right to protect their own daughters.

Wah Chor machaye Shor!

nkg:

This issue has been thrashed at chowk several times. I may agree with some of the points you make. But don't blame muslims for what Gandhi-Nehru did. As kaalchakra says repeatedly, Paksitan solved its communal problem in 1947 but our karta-dhartas did not. Too late now; we have to follow the constitutions, or else change the constitution.

Dash_Dot:

One wishes that they had at least used "terrorism in the name of jihad/islam", but with 10,000 delegates representing different viewpoints, I guess this kind of diluted statement is all one could expect.

Re: # 17

How does the support for Khilafat movement negate MKG's all other contributions? You would have to take into account the paradigm shifts that have taken place from MKG's khilafat supporting time to the time you have typed. I never knew that you are the mythical Markandeyan.


Did MKG choose to support the Khilafat movement as an act of contriving against a section of populace or his school of thought might not allowed him to see the euphemistic ideas, of the movement, that would morph in the future?

Re: # 17 do also perchance wear kashaaye angavastram!

Nkg,

(It was the institution, which has fought for Khilafat movement. Have ever Congress thought about the dangerous consequence of this?)

Exactly!!! That's why some Pakis (like Yasser) and Hindoos (like me) are staunchly pro-MAJ (pbuh) and anti-MKG.

It may be of some interest to you that Deoband was by and large opposed to partition and Pakistan.

Regards

Re: # 14
I have doubt about the term Hinduism ...
Coming to Deoband...What output India is getting from this? It was the institution, which has fought for Khilafat movement. Have ever Congress thought about the dangerous consequence of this?

Muslims are enjoying more freedom than minorities in muslim countries. They have right to establish their own academic institutions and formulate their sylabus. The fund flow is also not monitored. Furthermore,Govt, sponsors this mediaval middle east stuff in many of the states. Have the state tried to idenify why? Is it our basic culture, which needs to be preserved? No. I feel, Govt. should do that for tribals like Bheel, Kole, Santhals, Garo etc... people. Instead, they are more concerned about moslems. May be large vote bank. When, a separate country is created in the name of this culture, what for we need to keep this useless stuff? Why Govt. has to waste money on Urdoo, when Sanskrit needs more patronage (this language has given us the identity in literature. The first language with grammer. Earliest epic created using the literature. If China, Israel can promote their language, why not us) ? If you are talking about the same rhetoric (moslems are under represented in IAS,IPS, IITs etc...), I have the same answer for this. There is no historic evidence of systemic oppression on moslems. If you are fit for the job, prove it. Every institution is ready to pick the best person for the job. Furthermore, a separate country is created for moslems. Why we need to provide separate privilege as minority to these people? Isn't this sounds rediculous? In fact, Patel was firmly against it. Actual ethnic minorities like Anglo Indians, Persians, Jews never complain about discrimnation or special law to protect their cultural identity.

Dost mittar an interesting article and interesting observations.

What I find interesting (similar to your observation) in the declarations is that the typical islamic/muslim rationalisation for terror has been toned down. But the collective heads have not been removed from the sand - (your para immediately after the quote from the declaration).

The mullahs and the ulema et al are a worried lot in India. They are finding that their flock is slowly flying the coop, and spreading their wings (as jang has put it rather nicely in #5). Also these same mullahs ulema and moolies and maalis are seeing what #1 says and they want to be in the driving seat. That is why they have changed tune, just enuf to keep their home flock happy, and just enuf not to worry their ummahite hommies from arby (that is why no condemnation of the attack on the sovereign parliament).

The sooner these mullahs et al are put in collars and sent to a remote inaccessible hermitage the better it is for all concerned.

nkg#8:

In what sense are the muslims getting more than their share in India? Certainly not a greater share in the army, police, bureaucracy or economic pie in general,

#9,10:
Why should deobandis be banned and not other religious organizations? If you are suggesting that India should have not been a secular country, that would be a separate issue.

I never said that Islam is a peaceful ideology. Would you say that Hinduism is a peaceful ideology?

RiazHaq#7:

Thanks for pointing out to the difference between the Pak and Indian deobandis. In addition to the old deobandi-nationalist muslim relationship, the two outfits are facing two different situations and have therefore to adjust their positions accordingly. At the same conference in Pakistan, I recall that the Indian deobandis prevented the passage of a resolution on kashmir.

izuber$7:

Speculative, yes. But would you call it reasonable speculation?

jang#5

"IMO at this point in time indian non-muslims and indian muslims do not have differing aspirations"

Could agree with you as far as domestic issues are concerned. Not too sure about foreign policy issues.

Whether DM agrees or not, Islam was never a peaceful theology. The history of Persia, Sindh etc...tells different story. Now, the peaceful islam is invention of Nehru and it's followers in post independent India. Noted Bengali authors tells different story (Banking Chatterjee, Rabindranath Tagore). Some people try to brush aside these people, as they have received enough patronage from British rulers, that they may distort history. But, how can you explain the animosity of Gujjus against moslems? Marathis against moslems? Problems in Karnataka? I know large amount of folk stories in Karnataka, which is totally opposite to what History book in India teaches. Most of our books largely concentrate on British period and try to paint that period in negative way. In practice, we follow the rule and institutes created by British people. Furthermore, I can see evidence of islamic barbarism in Hampi, Thirupati etc...

Muslim population increase may not be a planned activity. How a muslim family in Karala related to a muslim family in Bihar? The population increase is largely due to backwardness in mentality. Whatever rise of islam ocurred in India and Bangladesh, started in middle of 80s, largely due to middle east petro dollar. The process had started in Pakistan long back, and so, they are suffering little earlier. Bangladesh and India is the next Pakistan. Crude oil has touched 100US$. Do you think huge profit from the rising price is used to sponsor reserch projects in Stanford, MIT? Nope.

Re: # 1
It is not such. India is now ruled by regional sentiments. Moslems are getting more than what they deserve. But that is viotebank politics, which we call democracy. In states like Orissa, Jharkhand, Uttaranchal, Nagaland, Mijoram etc... moslem presence is very less. Why BJP is not able to hold power there. Key to success is good governance. BJP is good on paper, when comes to administration, they have failed to bring radical changes in cow belt states like Rajasthan, MP, UP. If BJP was not able to consolidate so called Hindutwa vote bank in cow belt, it is due to V P Sing. The OBJ vote, which was with BJP is taken away by parties like Laloo and Mulayam.
Coming back to the topics, Deobands etc...should have been banned in India. Why this mediaval barbarism, in the heart of India? Nehru & Congress fresh from the shock it has received during partition (I think most of the Congress leaders have not expected such level of violence), had tried to pacify remaining part of moslems with this kind of carrot.

I think there has always been a divergence of views between Debandis in India and Deobandi-offshoots in Pakistan. I remember in 2001 prior to 911, when the leader of Indian Deoband Maulana Marghoob visited Pakistan for a Deobandi conference, he openly criticized the Taleban for destroying Buddha carvings in Bamian. This criticism was not welcomed by Maulana Fazlur Rahmman of JUI in Pakistan. The Indian Muslims at the time were cognizant of the fact that they could not criticize the destruction of Babri Masjid while at the same time turn a blind eye to the destruction of Buddha statues. Don't forget that Maulana Husain Ahmad Madani of Deoband and the pre-independence JUI-Hind were supporters of a united India and collaborated with Congress rather than the Muslim League. The Muslim League was mainly supported by secular Muslims in its quest for Pakistan. About the only notable Maulana that openly supported Pakistan Muslim League was Maulana Shabbir Ahmad Usmani who became the leader of JUI-Pakistan. He was clearly a small minority among the Indian ulema. The Indian ulema have always been pro-united India and continue to believe in peaceful co-existence with non-Muslims as taught by Islam.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Nicely written yet speculative commentary. The conference only restates the position of Islamic rulings and thoughts of those concerned on the issue of terrorism, for the general understanding of specially those who are not literate on the position of Islamic rulings that discourage violence and violent acts committed in the name of Islam and commonly observed in today's world while blamed on the faith of Islam and it's followers in a stereotype effort.

yar sahranpuri most indian muslims want to live and let live...they are mostly trying to get better just like most hindus or sikhs or jains. there is no plan of red fort etc. incidentlly are you in paper trade (being sahranpuri an all..).. i personally know a lot of indian muslims and while they are indeed struggling withe the affliction of religion (just like hindoos or jains or sikhs) they are thinking folks . some even do yoga and meditation..go figure.

IMO at this point in time indian non-muslims and indian muslims do not have differing aspirations.

Look#2:

Indian Muslims do have choices and they are exercising it, this is why the Congress is worried. In the post-babri masjid period, Muslims have been voting strategically on a constituency basis to vote for the Candidate with the best chance of defeating the BJP candidate. This will continue. The best Congress can hope for is for Muslims to vote for it when the choice is between non-bjp candidates.

saharanpuri:

I don't think that any Indian Muslim is thinking of flying green flag atop the red fort. All they want is to able to exercise the rights guaranteed to them in the Indian constitution; nothing more, nothing less.

Bloc voting is not limited to muslims, various castes and other groups do it as well. Even in the US democratic primaries, blacks are voting en bloc for obama and hispanics for Hilary. It's all part of democracy.

I believe there's a general sentiment among India's Muslims to want the Union to work. What other choice is there? This is also what gives the Congress its strenght. They know(always have known) we have no other option but to coexist peacefully.
And, any good action should be commended, regardless of the motive.

Hindus in India forget their castes only at the time of riots.India is now indirectly ruled by the Muslims.Their tactical voting n huge multiplication in population resulting in huge vote bank selects the party in power .Its only a matter of time before they directly rule India.