New US Strategy Needed in Afghanistan and Pakistan

Re: # 710
Treetop:
India was at the bottom of hierarchy, but it was heading towards that...British have made that little faster than others...


Wealth in terms of skill and capability building. Bitish have established Railway for their own. After 1947, we are using the base to improve our life. They have established PWD, we are using that to strengthen our road network. Story repeats in sectors like Iron & Steel, Textile...Same can be true for medical, technical and higher education. Education is the sector, where India have received enough boost...
In Pakistan ( in that matter from India also), large number of boys and girls graduate from Islamic schools. What is their contribution towards Pakistan society (apart from terrorism and other anti-civilisational activities)? Can your society survive with that kind education system? Can you survive with islamic system (legal/lifestyle/medical)? BIG NO...
And this is where British contribution towards India mattered most...
We could have received help in technology & education without exploitation... That would have been ideal situation...Indians should be happy with the positives we have got from British, which we can capitalise for generations...

#NKG
You may give thousand explations for your pathetic and humilated past but the bottom line is you were at the bottom of international hierachy and at the bottom of human food chain.Certainly you created wealth but who enjoyed the fruit of your labour?If you keep on evovling someday you may gain the status of a scavenger.

Re: # 706
Majumder...
Some modernisation!!!!
Entire Bengali literature is contribution of post Islamic era...Muslims destroyed Indian artifacts, British have built Asiatic Society to preserve the ancient heritage... British have built entire educational infrastructure and revived structured higher education?... The fruit of Industrial revolution in Britain was exposed to India...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Revolution.

Masadi...

get hold of the country and leave it as the most backward region on the face of the earth and that is exucsed by this slave of the West as "it was only trade"- and Muslims come

Ans: B EIC had come to India for business purpose and not with "Armada" or with army.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_East_India_Company
1617 to 1757 (Almost 140 years), they have not angaged in military acivities. Rather they had setup business/industrial establishment in various segment of India and China.

EIC maintained small armed force to protect their godowns due to law and order problem...

After 1757, they have engaged into military activities and acptured power of one by one Indian states...
Know the history (not barbaric islamic version...Gibril have talked from sky to Muhammed etc... type)...

Re: # 703
Masadi-
Indian civilisation was stagnant(better to say declining for centuries). Courtesy, prolonged islamic rule. In every field (...art, literature, engineering, physical science, medical science, philosophy...) there was no visible contribution from India after 13th/14th century...Rather, it had lost some skill due the barbaric islmic mayhem ( Ayurveda is example of it...)...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_mathematics
Read the above URL...

Post 13th century, most of contribution is from South India (Karnataka, Kerala and Tamilnadu). I hope, it is enough for conclusion...

The similar story repeats in Ayurveda also (Only South India carrying the heritage. The people from civilised world pour into Kerala for treatment).

You will find Arabs/Muslims claiming the same work of Sridhar/Boudhayana/Bhaskar/Aryabhatta as their own after 100/200 years. Great (!!!!) Islamic mathematician Al Khwar...'s most work is basically copies of Brahmagupta...


India, for it's wealth was centre of attraction for everybody, moslems have come to India for the same purpose. So, there is nothing new in that British was the last looters, does not imply only looter. So, there is nothing different for that.
East India company had taken advantage of anarchy and misrule. Bankim Chandra Chatterjee's Anadamath can provide more insight of this (How the base of Bengal famine in 1770 was created and how people of Bengal wanted to get rid of barbaric moslems).

Masadi sahib,

Re: 703

India may not have been very badly off by world standards in 1757 but is is by no means certain that India wud have done well had it been left alone. There was no political unity among the various states who were busy fighting each other hardly a formula for future grwoth. Secondly, in terms of technology India was stagnant while Western Europe was rapidly advancing.

Brits did not come to India for Injuns benefits, whatever people may say and on the whole the economic devastation caused by Brits can hardly be denied. But some modernistaion did happen, Railways, English education, political unity of sorts.

Regards

PS: Now ducking the dandas that are coming my way!!!

"George Bush went into Iraq for human rights"

Brilliant logic by a brilliant Indian indeed.

oh and in addition to #703....George Bush went into Iraq for human rights........who are you trying to fool bigot?

nkg writes "British force of couple of hundreds have defeated Indians with their discipline and better military organisation. British had come to India for trade. It was not entire British army/navy attacked India. So, comparing the military strength of EIC to that of Indian states, is not proper.
Regarding unity, it was the main reason, barbaric moslems entered India. India had at least better technology than that of moslems"


SO let me get this straight, the British arrive in India when it is one of the most advanced countries on the planet- comparatively speaking, and they get hold of the country and leave it as the most backward region on the face of the earth and that is exucsed by this slave of the West as "it was only trade"- and Muslims come to India and when their rule ends and the British rule starts the British term it a "jewel" in the crown of their empire- and the Hindus rather than being eliminated are more numerous than the Muslims- and that translates as the Muslim rulers being "barbarous" and fighting at "night". Come on bigot you can do better than that...

Re: # 701
Majumder:
I am talking of generic social order. The founder of Maurya dynasty Chandragupta Maurya was basically rooted with Nandas....One or two exceptions does not make rule...

Nkg,

(So, Kshatriyas were only trained to defend a kingdom. Others (goldsmiths, blacksmiths, potters...) had stayed away from the political/administrative/military affair of the state)

FYI,

The Mauryas and Nandas great rulers of Magadha were shudras, Mauryas being peacock feather collectors of all things. The Satakarnis slaughtered large number of Kshatriyas. The Yadavas who ruled many kingdoms were cowherds. The Pratihara- Gurjaras were Gujjars, nomadic shepherds. The Guptas as their name suggests may have been Baniyas although I am not sure.

The Maratha rulers (Bhoansale, Gaikwads, Holkars) were all kunbis- farmers.

Regards

Re: # 699
I think last time I just called you nkg.
The Gee that came later was exclamatory.
I'll continue to address you as 'nkg' since that is what you have chosen for yourself; I don't care much for regionalism; we are all communicating in English, and if I HAVE to use something, I'll just call you Sir.

btw; please only single-click when you send your post; there are a lot of duplicates here

Re: # 696
I have not watched the link...later...
BTW...I will prefer to remove Lala or ji from my name...In my native language, the proper term is Mahashai ( Mr.)/Bandhu (Friend)...

Re: # 696
I have not watched the link...later...
BTW...I will prefer to remove Lala or ji from my name...In my native language, the proper term is Mahashai ( Mr.)/Bandhu (Friend)...

Re: # 685
For 700 years, the international language of science was Arabic
ANs: That is your perception....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_mathematics
Whatever they have learnt from Indians, passed that to Europe as their own...
Medical scinece (Ayurveda) was not replicable, as it depends mostly on flora and fauna of India.
Brahmagupta, Sridhara etc... done pretty well without any knowledge of Arabic/Persian...

Re: # 695 nkg

Is that a response to the youtube link?! Gee where did I direct you to I wonder....

Re: # 693
Masadi:
British force of couple of hundreds have defeated Indians with their discipline and better military organisation. British had come to India for trade. It was not entire British army/navy attacked India. So, comparing the military strength of EIC to that of Indian states, is not proper.
Regarding unity, it was the main reason, barbaric moslems entered India. India had at least better technology than that of moslems. The dirty tricks used by the moslems (fighting at night, after being defeated several times, poisoning kings horses,elephants...).Prithviraj had to face the worst type of sabotage from his uncle.
Regarding Tipu, he was a foot soldier to Royals of Mysore and captured power due to internal problem of Royals ( Woodyars). He was kind of bandit fighting with small segment of British traders-cum-soldiers. There is nothing glorifying about it. Throughout India, there was administrative crisis; so was civilisational ( no notable throughput in any area of civilisation -art,science,literature...). On the contrary Europe, particluarly Britain was deveoping in very fast pace in almost all fields (Newton, Shakespeare, James Watt...). They were ahead of India in alomst all segments (Ruling 1/3 of the world is not mean task). The qualitative boost India have received in the field of Education, Health Care, Public Works..., is still the benchmark of any civil society.
694-CreateAlpha
Indians and Chinese were not poor. Indian history have never says anything called famine (food shortage),poverty etc... That is the reason, Indians never invaded any country or looted. So are chinese people.
Like any civilised society , Indian society was very much fragmented based on their profession (caste).This is called specialisation. So, Kshatriyas were only trained to defend a kingdom. Others (goldsmiths, blacksmiths, potters...) had stayed away from the political/administrative/military affair of the state. Sivaji was the first person in Indian society to break that barrier (It is like Israel. Everybody have to serve military).
Enlightement!!!
More than 2000 years ago, people of this land used to perform cataract surgery,treat internal haemorriage, used the concept of local anathesia (not the level of modern medicine) for surgery and were aware of human physioloy with knowledge of role of blood and nerves in human body.

More than 1000 years ago, people of this land invented quadratic equation and other non-linear equation...

More that 2000 years ago, people of this land invented language theory and a balanced language like Sanskrit (you don't need any meta character or numeric symbols to study mathematics)...
The list is almost endless...After 13th/14th century, with advent of Islam in India, mediaval darkness spread....

To Mr. AKCHEEMA...
Ans: Whatever you specifed are basically collection from other countries. Before the discovery of sea route between India/China and Europe, Middle East was used as trading junction. They have immensely benifitted from this people to people contact with India/China and were able to learn couple of stuffs.

wrong masadi..Indians weren't at par..tipu sultan was. Indians and chinese weren't rich before the british...the rulers were. Indians still shat by the streams, railroad tracks of yore. Indians were much much poor than a cave dweller in the west a the advent of enlightenment.

venga... writes " With the newly found technology they could have easily out manufactured us."

What would have been is a matter of speculation. The Indians were at par with the British in the major "industry" of the time, in warfare technology as I have pointed out earlier, in rockets the army of haider ali and tipu ransacked the British. What they were lacking in was unity and common solidarity due to the autonomous nature of the rule- if cave dwellers who couldn't handle their sewage could give birth to the industrial revolution so could much more enlightend folk from India and China- they did not because the British played dirty using the peons of the West because they considered you like cockroaches regardless of how much you worship them.....

Re: # 691 Lala 'nkg' ji,

try this link to youtube; I promise you'd enjoy it.

"Naheen to paisay waapus"!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tn5QNAwAySg

Re: # 688
Knowledge doesn't flow unidirectionally...I give up...

Ans: May not be always, but sometimes....The way knowledge nows flows from West to East....

Re: # 683
The state of education was totally in samblance (in India) during islamic rule. Whatever Mr. A K Cheema is claiming, Indians have not learned from moslems...

Re: # 683
The state of education was totally in samblance (in India) during islamic rule. Whatever Mr. A K Cheema is claiming, Indians have not learned from moslems...

Re: # 686

nkg,

Knowledge doesn't flow unidirectionally...I give up...

Re: # 686; nkg

Lalaji! have you ever seen the British TV programme "Goodness Gracious Me"?

There is a "Indian father" character in it; you have to watch this to appreciate what I am talking about!

You sound just like that character!

may be you can find it on youtube or something.

(don't worry it is not offensive; well not to me anyway)

Re: # 685
Basic tenet of all these is from India. Beejaganit ( Alzebra), evolution ( meen, kurma, baraha, nrisingha....)...are from India....

P.S. to No 684:

Approximately 1,000 years before the British naturalist Charles Darwin published his theory of evolution, a scientist working in Baghdad was thinking along similar lines.

For 700 years, the international language of science was Arabic

In the Book of Animals, abu Uthman al-Jahith (781-869), an intellectual of East African descent, was the first to speculate on the influence of the environment on species. He wrote: “Animals engage in a struggle for existence; for resources, to avoid being eaten and to breed. Environmental factors influence organisms to develop new characteristics to ensure survival, thus transforming into new species. Animals that survive to breed can pass on their successful characteristics to offspring.”

There is no doubt that it qualifies as a theory of natural selection!

Re: # 682

There has been significant contribution to the sciences (including the theory of evolution itself!), arts, philosophy etc by Muslims in earlier times. I, for one, am very proud of that part of my heritage.

That was a time when Greek philosophies were not just incorporated into Muslim thought but also found to be quite compatible.

Some examples are:

Incoherence of the Philosophers (Ghazzali)
Incoherence of Incoherence (Ibn Rushd; known in Latin as Averroes)
Canon of Medicine (Al-Qanun fit-Tib) by Abu Ali Sina (Avecenna) which was the official textbook of medicine in western Europe (Italy and England and others) well into the 17th century.
Several books by Al-Razi (Rhazes to the Latins)
Jabir bin Hayan (Algebra, Alchemy - Chemistry)
Al-Khwarizimi (Algorithm)

The list is too long to mention here.

Re: # 682

nkg,

Its only a google click away.

Re: # 681
What section of science we have learned from moslems? Please be specific...

Re: # 680
nkg...you know Muslims' contribution to art and science...then why do you want to deny that?

Ans: This is fact....
The pathetic state of cow belt is proof of it. Ujjain is birthplace of mathematics. They have enhanced mathematics upto the level of concept of infinity,quadratic equation, all type of geometry, what is available today...Suddenly that dried up after 13/14th century...So, is the state of literature (sanskrit)...So, is the state of Ayurveda (skin grafting, treatment of internal haemorrage, operation of cataract and harnea...how the knowledge vanished? Most of the web-sites of Ayurveda points finger to islamic invastion...What have India gained? Architecture? Indian temple's are structurally more complicated than any architecture available today...See the temple of Puri, Konark, Madurai...I don't see any value addition in the copies of Hagia Sophia (most of the mosques are built as replica of it)...

Re: # 679

"Our GDP was not bigger, share was bigger."

True...I thought why expend energy on completing that :).


"Muslims were undeveloped/inferior to Indians."

Its a sweeping statement. Thats not true. Are you equating Indians to the Total Population - Muslims?

nkg...you know Muslims' contribution to art and science...then why do you want to deny that?

Re: # 677
Our GDP was not bigger, share was bigger. The way others have grown, we were not able to keep that pace...
The decline ( % of world GDP) was consistent during mediaval period...British have made that worst...
On the positive side, British people have built minimum Education, Health, Civic infrastructure, we have used as template to replicate. The technology, they have brought was best in the world at that time. Muslims were undeveloped/inferior to Indians. They have added no value to the civilisation; rather caused destruction of literature, science, mathematics...When British have come to India, they (Brits) were at the peak of their culture, science,literature, civil administration.

Re: # 677

Masadi,

I accept that we were leaders in trade but the combined India was not a force to reckon with, when technology developed in the western world. Even if we had not gotten under the British rule, the British/Europen industries would have overwhelmed us. With the newly found technology they could have easily out manufactured us.

Simply, we did not have all the constituents that would have caused an industrial revolution.

Re: # 666

Masadi,

Its 666, I think you have the knack to hit it or wait watchfully till 665 :). I accept our GDP was bigger before British colonized India. If we had been treated like peers, we could have been a more developed sub-continent. But licking the white master's boot. perhaps, was our destiny.

Re: # 675
Majumder...
Moslems have cleaned up jungle and distributed the land amongst the poor in the condition to convert to Islam.... (Christian missionaries in South India/Orissa pay 2000/5000 to accept Christianity; similar way...)....

Nkg,

(Islam in Bengal spread mostly at the cost of jungles of Sunderbans)

The Muslim sultans converted the tigers, crocodiles and mangrove trees of Sunderbans into Islam.

???

Regards

To Majumder & Masadi:
So far, only economic exploitation of British rule is known. Definitley, they have created a class of very poors (those who skips at least one meal in a day).I am not sure, whether we would have been better, with huge population growth and without taxing the nature. Islam in Bengal spread mostly at the cost of jungles of Sunderbans (they have arranged to clean up the jungle and provided that in the condition of converting to Islam).

To Majumder & Masadi:
So far, only economic exploitation of British rule is known. Definitley, they have created a class of very poors (those who skips at least one meal in a day).I am not sure, whether we would have been better, with huge population growth and without taxing the nature. Islam in Bengal spread mostly at the cost of jungles of Sunderbans (they have arranged to clean up the jungle and provided that in the condition of converting to Islam).

Re: # 668
Mr Majumder:
India failed to sustain the leadership, as the innovation/development stopped for centuries. Islamic barabrism is greatly responsible for this....
In my college days, I have seen the fate of Remington factory (manufacturing typewriters) in Howrah. After the change in management team ( Mr. Nehru's Leave India policy), the company had failed to upgrade its product line and as the product become obsolete, the factory closed down....What is projected as British onslaught, is basically breathed its last breath due to stagnation...If India is now a major player in Textile Industry, thanks the improved machinery designed/developed by Italian firms....

Re: # 667
Masadi...
Indian per capita income/consumption started declining long back. The Bengal famine of 1770 was direct result of pre-British period anarchy than British policy (Both British and Moslem scoundrels were responsible for that). The famine in 1943 was mostly due to WWII. After 600/700 years of moslem rule, Northern India/Gangetic region ( UP,Bihar, Bengal) was already weak. British had struck the final blow.

Re: # 668
Masadi & Majumder, I was expecting this theory...
Indian textile industry died natural death due to the industrial revolution in Europe, than British cruealty. British had framed industrial policy, such that British mills benefit. But British mills used to produce cheaper cloths. India still has large base of handlooms (each state has it's own handloom emporium). Are they able to survive? With use of efficient tools, textile Industry had advanced to different level. India remained in the same state for centuries.

#666, Amazing isn't it! Tahmed whould have a fatwa forthcoming...since I have rejected the objects of his worship, the white man and his world system

Masadi sahib,

For the second successive time you have made the Post #666. How come?

Nkg,

Masadi sahib is right about Indian industry. Before the Brits came it was a leader at least in textile industry.

Regards

Quote "As Utsa Patnaik, a renowned Indian economist has shown, under British rule per capita consumption in India declined from 200kg/ha in 1918 to 150 kg in 1947. Non-food grain crops expanded 10 times faster than food grains, feeding export markets. The Great Bengal Famine which killed 2 million people was the result )"end quote

By the way read her article if you have access to JSTOR

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0970-0293(199911%2F12)27%3A11%2F12%3C3 %3ATCOFTT%3E2.0.CO%3B2-F

Utsa Patnaik "The Cost of Free Trade: The WTO Regime and the Indian Economy"

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China has long history of manucaturing. They used to produce finest silk,textile, pottery. They have great engineering and scientific heritage. If China makes impact in manufacturing, their heritage/culture is also quite responsible for this. India had long history of dominance in science,mathematics,literature and culture. We can regain that glory with little less effort than others (in Chess, India is making rapid progress and within couple of years, it can challenge Russia also).

Re: # 612
Mr. Masadi, what industry British have destryoed which would have made India industrially powerful? As per my knowledge, moslems were reason for destruction of India's dominance in couple of technologies (foundry, construction, textile). With Industrial revolution in Europe (specailly in UK), India was exposed to the new group of technologies, which should have made them technical superpower. In fact, during British period, we have got boost in Engineering, Literature, Education (specially Higher eductaion) to large extent. Though British have exploited India economically, they have left enough number of Institutions, which could have been replicated to make India better. Indians owe a lot to Britain in field of education(which was destroyed by barbaric moslems). 4 Universities...we have got eminent scientists like S N Bose, P C Roy, Ramanujam, J C Bose,C V Raman, U N Brahmachari...

Re: # 656
" With cheap Afghan manpower and pakistani management and Indian engineering skills and it expertise can become powerhouse for exports to Muslim countries."

Ans: Afghianisthan and Pakistan have no hope, unless and until they leave the barbaric mediaval culture (Islam). For Management, Engineering and Labour, you need specific skills. In every sphere of life (whether you are manager, engineer or labour), openness of mind (we call it ability and willingness to learn), discipline/accountability, positive self believe is key to success. I have a senior (he is like mentor to me), who was working in R & D section of N V Phillips India (Consumer Electronics Division). When we talk about Chinese manufacturing, he brings out discipline as the key to their success (his experience from a plant in Shenzhen, China). No tea, coffea break and production goes on without any interruption. They have learnt this skill from Japanese and are forced to work in pathetic working condition, as China is not a democracy. Philips had decent base of manufacturing in India. They have shifted couple of them to China. Only design and customisation section is in India.
I don't think cheap does make a person employable. As per management/leadership skills, Indians are little better than Chinese and Japanesse people due to our basic nature (Argumentative Indian- by Dr. Amartya Sen) and prolonged democracy. Engineering skill is still with Japan, Europe, Israel, Korea (they fill highest number of patents). India have long way to go. India should have started earlier and we should have got more help from US/EU based Indians.

In technology we boast of
Vyomesh Joshi , Padmashree Warrior, Vinod Dham, Dr. Arun Netravali, Mani Lal Bhaumik... but they have worked on the infrastructure provided by USA.
China has great future ahead. Unless India mends it's ways, it will not be in a condition to compete with China.

Nkg,

(He was very weak minded.So, he had resorted to all types of compromises, with lack of clear civilised vision. His daughter Indira was also such person.)

Thanks. I quite agree with you here.

Regards

Re: # 563
To Majumder:
The base of free India was created by Nehru. He was 1/2 moslem and was very weak minded.So, he had resorted to all types of compromises, with lack of clear civilised vision. His daughter Indira was also such person. We have got first decent prime minister in PVN. Fortunately, AVB and Manmohan Singh are also quite good.
A country of size India can not be compared with that of Korea.
We have lost a lot due to isolation from USA/EU. USA had always wanted India into its fold. Thanks to Nehru and his friends (other than Ballav Patel), we were deprived technological support from USA. IITs and IIMs were built with the help of USA (the students who pass from these institutions serves more to US MNCs than India). But it has brought quality technical and management education in india.
http://toprankingmba.com/topmba_asia.htm
Large section of India (cow belt ... UP,Bihar,MP,Rajasthan) is already islamised/barbarised like Pakistan, Afghanisthan. It is very difficult to bring these states at per with AP, Karnataka, Gujrat, Maharashtra, Tamilnadu, West Bengal, HP, Uttaranchal. Their language, dress, culture is similar to Urdoo/Moslems. I barealy have any hope for these states. GOI is pouring money on these states for long time without any result. North Eastern states and Orissa is constantly deprived. If during partition, moslems were sent to East Pakistan and non-moslems into India, the situation would have been much better for West Bengal, Assam and Tripura. Otherwise, India is not in very bad state. Businessman/Politician nexus killed India.

#645 Posted by ahmedmadani on March 22, 2008 2:25:05 pm


Big G. ( first wheat carrying ship anchored 15 miles from big G canadaian soft white wheat and then transferred to other ship ).


I'm sure the irony of the port being used to import wheat after your government had declared a bumper crop isn't lost on you..

#657 majumdar, you have not understood the nature of that beast...tahmed is a spineless, backstabbing fool who plays dirty....following the example of his objects of worship, the US elite...

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majumdar, you have understood the nature of that beast...

Here are some of my postings on the photo that he pasted in case you all missed it:..

Posted by masadi on Saturday March 22, 2008 10:45 pm
Tahmed this peon of the West is full of empty FLUFF. If people were protesting and those protests were weakning the establishment (keeping whose status quo the US elite play a prominent role), he would be railing against the "terrorists" and putting up photos of burning busses and other BS. This person is a spineless hypocrite- ignore his BS , not only does he have the political knowledge of a ten year old, he has the morals of a pig and the integrity of a hyena....

Posted by masadi on Saturday March 22, 2008 10:47 pm
....not to mention the stench of a skunk (his dirty posts smell up the entire thread)


Posted by masadi on Saturday March 22, 2008 10:50 pm
By the way this fool should not worry about "restoring the judges" until he "restores" himself back to the homeland from which he escaped and whose people he has been stabbing in the back ever since just because of a few crumbs the white man has handed him, even though everyday in that society he is looked down upon by even the common homeless man, as he walks through the malls and stores in the US, the plastic full of fluff insincere smiles of the salesgirls makes him happy, while when he turns his back and walks away, they snicker at his desi a$$...

Re: # 645

" With cheap Afghan manpower and pakistani management and Indian engineering skills and it expertise can become powerhouse for exports to Muslim countries."

Somebody forgot to tell you, we have several top notch management institutes besides IIMs and ISB.

It would be great if you can take an effort to find out the Indian management students' foreign offers. You have many times tried to picture that Pakistan
produces better managers than India.
This is not true.

Right from Citi groups CEO, Pepsi's Indra Nooyi, Unilever's Kaki Dadiseth we have one of the best in the world. India has produced thought leaders like C K Prahlad ... and many others.

Masadi sahib,

I will be more than happy to oblige you. I dunno much about Hamid but I dont think Tahmed sahib is the sort who wud want to forcibly impose a ban on you.

Regards

majumdar, I will be contacting you in case they ban me which (banning me) is the desire of the white man's peons on here.....don't know why they are so afraid of simple facts and reasoning.....maybe because they, like their masters, cannot handle the truth

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Re: # 651 Zee bhai

I thought Hamidm wanted to be known as "muslim-american-pakistani-murtid"; or did I read wrong somewhere? multiple occasions I think.

don't worry about my courage; if you get some satisfaction personally, I really don't care what you call me......

.... re "Atheist-Muslim", you're totally confused. You're either a Muslim or you're not. There's nothing in between.

You're a murtid. If the biggest murtid hamidm2 has the moral courage to have courage of his convictions and be upfront about them, why don't you? Scared of something uh?

#646 Posted by akcheema,

Yeah your aussie in the outback must be a dingo!

Masadi sahib,

I am not sure about the details but I certainly think they shud allow you to publish the same on I-logs and if there is any glitch rectify it at the earliest.

REgards

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Re: # 637; rf786

No worries mate!

Re: # 635 Zeemax bhai,

I took the story out of a book called "645 outback jokes" written by an Aussie; clearly someone plagiarised and if it is my Aussie friend, I apologise. The moral is not completely lost though!

I have replied on Darrymple's board on mythological characters that might interest you and Eklavya.

This "Atheist-Muslim" thing has a ring to it don't you think? Thanks for being considerate, it is much appreciated!

Major had put constructive thing. May be usa, saudi arabia, Iran these wealthy nations give money to establish some business under international agencies in A.stan. With cheap Afghan manpower and pakistani management and Indian engineering skills and it expertise can become powerhouse for exports to Muslim countries. Just like pakistan it can become transit country for goods and oil products and transmit electric power. It can be even more suitably located as it will have three harbours Chahbahar, Karachi and Big G. ( first wheat carrying ship anchored 15 miles from big G canadaian soft white wheat and then transferred to other ship ). It can become great chemical industry processing center by tapping in oil pipelines oing to big G and Chahbahar.

Re: # 643
Mr. Arjun can you admit people may be getting tired of you your hatred against and jalousy with respect to Romair and this tea Shirt thing too old . Start looking for new stuff.
Go in peace. Good luck

#640 Posted by ferozk on March 21, 2008 7:33:31 am


That is like saying wearing a T-shirt with a Pakistani flag will improve Pakistan's standing in the American public opinion! :)


You must have missed the original quote...I'm sure what you meant was That is like saying wearing a T-shirt with a Pakistani flag will indians, arabs and sri lankans safe in the US..

Re: # 640 Madness for sure but there is vicious lining to madness where pakistani nationals are evaporating in flying guided bombs by pilotless airmachines. Bush is mad and has gone beserk and like angry mad elephant. And western elite from europe encouraging or condoneing missile bombs.

the ilog system, or whatever bugs are in it, have been there before the Emergency, masadi, and have nothing to do with censoring your writings. There have been a lot of problems since the switch to beta. Feroz's ilogs have not appeared here and I do not see him crying about a conspiracy. Even columnists like Nadeem Paracha have had a long wait before some of their articles get published.

I do not know if the previous "managers/editors" of this site are still the editors, but if they are, I know that they encourage all viewpoints -- have you tried sending them a polite inquiry on why your articles are being rejected. It does not hurt to try.

bottom line: this is not about you.

re: tahmed32

Thanks for clarifying your comments, Sirji. :)

Sirji, the appropriateness of the United States' post-September 11 policy is not the issue; what may have been a good policy choice in 2001 does not necessarily mean that it will remain as such in 2008 or even beyond.

I do not see a policy rethink in the United States or the need to reevaluate the results of their policy choices since 2001. The United States is simply reinforcing failure by thinking that it can tinker tailor changes and it will see a different result. What is needed is a complete overhaul of the United States' regional policy for Middle East, Afghanistan and Pakistan and for that, the United States needs to address the political dimension of question.

A policy success for the United States will only happen if the United States knows what it wants in the region, but if it has no policy other than to kill Muslims and keep occupying their lands, then it is headed into one of the most sigificant disasters of its modern political history.

Bush going to a mosque is of an immaterial consequence in the larger scheme of things. :)

That is like saying wearing a T-shirt with a Pakistani flag will improve Pakistan's standing in the American public opinion! :)

Gimmicks! Gimmicks do not make sound policies and policies made on the basis of gimmicks are simply a subsitute for a lack of a viable policy! :)

One of my favorite definations of madness is that you keep doing the same thing over and over again and expect different results.

Presently, the United States policy for the region is a defination of madness, as explained above and unless the United States alters its policy, it will not see a different result.

If the result is to win this GWOT, then there needs to be a better, more thought-out approach to the problem. :)

Ciao

re: zeemaz

As to your question, I do see the "connection". My disagreement with Fisk is that though there is a linkage between western influence/occupation of Muslim lands and the Muslim resistence to it, I do not agree with Fisk that western powers vacating Muslim lands will end the "terror".

The problem is one of compatibility. The Muslim world has to exist within the existing international system and it cannot exist outside of it. The Muslim world view is not the dominant view in the present international system and this view has a niche in the system, but will not be allowed to dominate the system. The Muslim political opinion, as manifested by the actions of groups normally associated with the ideology of Al Qaeda - Islamic militancy - wish to create a parallel system and as things are, the present domiant international system will not tolerate that eventuality.

In a sense, the present international sytem is based on the Brettonwoods agreement and though it has been modified since the late 1940s, the it still retains its core characteristics, which is basically the monoploy of the global financial institutions by the United States. The United States had replaced the European colonial powers as the global hegemon after the Second World War and since then, even thoughout the Cold War, its policies have been designed to make sure that the status quo of the post-1945 world it inheirated from the European powers continues unchanged in the favor of the United States.

Therefore, even if the United States and the western powers leave Muslim lands, there is no gurantee that the Muslims will wish to exist within the Brettonwood system. Now, we are presently engaged in a global power struggle to redraw the global balance of power, which was in fact made necessary with the demise of the Soviet Union and the end of the Cold War and the emergence of China and India as the two main contenders for influence in the new global balance of power in the post Pax Americana period.

The United States, according to many analysts, has reached a stage of "imperial over-reach" and is now in decline, both politically and militarily. The American imperialism is made possible courtsey of a deficit economy but how long that economy is supported by external powers, remains to be seen. The present financial crisis is a herald of this and the most likely beneficaries will be India and China, followed by Japan and Russia and the European Union and between them, they will adjudicate a new balance of power.

The United States, will be accomodated in this new balance of power, which will see the revivial of multipolarity in the affairs of the world and the United States, given its debt obligations to its external creditors, will be forced to accept a diminished role.

In any case, should such a new international balance of power emerge, it will not be willing to accomodate the Islamic view point. Simply, because the Islamic view point in the international affairs seeks the end of the present system and its replacement by a sharia inspired system, which is not acceptable to the non-Muslim states of the world.

Hence, non-Muslim powers leaving Muslim lands is no longer an option and even if they, there is no gurantee that it will end the terror as Fisk hopes and which is why, I disagreed with Robert Fisk.

Ciao

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Re: # 634

akcheema

Please accept my gratitude for such a beautiful story. May the force be with you.

#626 Posted by pavocavalry on March 20, 2008 11:17:58 pm

well..if that's the case, then things are going swimmingly...

then why does the US need a new strategy when, as you point out, business is quite booming..

p.s. the fact that you're in afghanistan doesn't change the fact that your idea of the textile zone thing is completely unrealistic and unworkable.

#634 Posted by akcheema,

Dear murtid bhai ... oops ... Dear aesthetic-atheistic-Muslim bhai, this joke was making the round a week ago (with some other animals substituted of-course) and I even made and one of my own variations substituting murtids for your dingos and the hindoos for your monkey!

But, how did you come to think of dingos and monkeys from Iqbal's sheyr of Qalandar and the raging river narrated in # 628 which you refer to in this response?

Re: # 628; Zee Bhai

Since you are so intrigued by the outback dingo, here is something I thought you might enjoy:

A wealthy Australian man decided to go on a safari in Africa. He took his faithful pet Dingo along for company.

One day, the Dingo starts chasing butterflies and before long he discovers that he is lost.

Wandering about, he notices a leopard heading rapidly in his direction with the obvious intention of having lunch. The dingo thinks, "Geez, I'm in deep poop now!" Then he noticed some bones on the ground close by, and immediately settles down to chew on the bones with his back to the approaching cat.

Just as the leopard is about to leap, the dingo exclaims loudly, "Bugger me dead, that was one delicious leopard. I wonder if there are any more around here?"

Hearing this, the leopard halts his attack in mid stride, as a look of terror comes over him, and slinks away into the trees. "Whew," says the leopard. "That was close. That dingo nearly had me."

Meanwhile, a monkey who had been watching the whole scene from a nearby tree figures he can put this knowledge to good use and trade it for protection from the leopard. So, off he goes. But the dingo sees him heading after the leopard with great speed, and figures that something must be up.

The monkey soon catches up with the leopard, spills the beans and strikes a deal for himself with the leopard. The leopard is furious at being made a fool of and says, "Here monkey, hop on my back and see what's going to happen to that conniving Aussie canine."

Now the dingo sees the leopard coming with the monkey on his back, and thinks, " Struth, what am I going to do now?" But instead of running, the dog sits down with his back to his attackers, pretending he hasn't seen them yet.. and just when they get close enough to hear, the dingo says, "Where the bloody hell's that monkey? I sent him off half an hour ago to bring me another leopard."

MORAL: SOMETIMES IF YOU CANT DAZZLE THEM WITH BRILLIANCE THEN BAFFLE THEM WITH BULLSHIT!

Massaddi Mian:

One simple question, is this your lecture to your students?

Re: # 623

Massaddi Mian:

My post on entrepreneurial energy and what is primary product and non-primary product is beyond you. Your recent gibberish includes:

entrepreneurial skills,
primary product sector,
price fluctuations,
bribe or consumption or runaway population,
primary product producing country gets an entrepreneur, (as if entrepreneur is some God)
some idea to develop some indigenous industry,
you damn fool,
unless protection is applied,
off the ground,
cheap imports,
more than brains,
skills at manipulation (as is skills are in the brain),
skills that will convince the elite,
nothing too evolutionary about it,
big dogs easting the small dogs BS,
get off my goddammed case,
you retard.

Honestly, Massaddi Mian, are sure you were summa cum laude donkey among the donkeys?

Please confess. All the above in the name of entrepreneurial energy and primary product.

Poor students of yours.

I thought your ignorance was bigger than your ego. It seems like your ignorance and ego compete in your mind to become bigger than the other. You mind can blow up.

Re: # 630; Zee bhai

nothing like a bit of old "Baala Kashmiri" to put some lead in the pencil eh?!

Perhaps ".....Lahu garm karne ka hai ik bahaana".

you said "I'm in!!!". In what paaji? "w_____t P_______s"(?)

I hope you'd see the funny side...comeon man, give me a break!

#627 Posted by pavocavalry

w_____t P_______s , its wet pussies

Aaah! Interesting. What're the investment rules Sir? I'm in!!!

... but the hind000s and the murtids stand at the shores and cheer their gora goo providers fighting battles with the 'Qalandars'!

#626 Posted by pavocavalry

as iqbal said,do not look from a distance, go jump into the sea and do battle with the waves,for immortality is won through striving.....that I may go in quest of the new spirit and become its acknowledged champion

Well said!

Kehta hay zamaanay se ye darwesh jawaaN mard
Jaata hay jidhar banda-e-haq, tu bhi udhar jaa

MaiN kashti-o-Malaah ka muhtaaj na hooNga
ChaRhta hua darya hay agar tu, tou utar jaa

touRa naheN Jaado meri takbeer ne tera?
Hay tujh maiN mukar jaanay ki Khwahish tou mukar jaa

Mehr-o Mah-o Anjum ka muhasib hay Qalandar
Ayyaam ka Murkib naheeN Rakib hay Qalander.

Re: # 488 --- we are for progress , it can be anyone , because I am dealing with this part of the world since 30 years , in my personal capacity , custom clearing , logistics and those heavenly uninhabited passages, the Afghan hashish from mazar is top of the line and scotch is far cheaper than pakistan. then there are other attractions.

u had asked whats w_____t P_______s , its wet pussies , a cat you know who got wet in the rain sir .

Roshan owned by Aga Khan started mobile tel ops in Afghanistan in 2002 and recovered their initial investment within 6 months .Now their subscribers exceed 1.5 Million I think.So did Afghan Telecom , Areeba (initial Lebanese now South African) and now Etisalat.China Telecom , ZTE are doing roaring business in telecom sector.

More than 10 private Afghan banks have emerged.One is a JV with ING Bank I think.

Fuel is one major business.All fuel is bought from Pakistan or Turkmenistan or smuggled from Iran (thats almost finished now with Ahmad Nijads bold policy of removing sub sidy).This is a billion dollar business.

Construction is another major business.Main donors are ADB,EU,JICA,WB , USAID,US Army , I am sub consultant of ADB in some surveys.

Indian government headed by Power Grid Corp India like Paki WAPDA is doing many projects.

National Highway Pakistan and NESPAK are also doing projects.Banking and insurance are booming.Anyone who sets a refinery will be the king.I am already working on this idea since 2000.My cousin in a leading European oil company tells me that Shibirgan-Mazar gas field is one of the biggest in the region.

The situation is as iqbal said,do not look from a distance, go jump into the sea and do battle with the waves,for immortality is won through striving.....that I may go in quest of the new spirit and become its acknowledged champion

Roshan owned by Aga Khan started mobile tel ops in Afghanistan in 2002 and recovered their initial investment within 6 months .Now their subscribers exceed 1.5 Million I think.So did Afghan Telecom , Areeba (initial Lebanese now South African) and now Etisalat.China Telecom , ZTE are doing roaring business in telecom sector.

More than 10 private Afghan banks have emerged.One is a JV with ING Bank I think.

Fuel is one major business.All fuel is bought from Pakistan or Turkmenistan or smuggled from Iran (thats almost finished now with Ahmad Nijads bold policy of removing sub sidy).This is a billion dollar business.

Construction is another major business.Main donors are ADB,EU,JICA,WB , USAID,US Army , I am sub consultant of ADB in some surveys.

Indian government headed by Power Grid Corp India like Paki WAPDA is doing many projects.

National Highway Pakistan and NESPAK are also doing projects.Banking and insurance are booming.Anyone who sets a refinery will be the king.I am already working on this idea since 2000.My cousin in a leading European oil company tells me that Shibirgan-Mazar gas field is one of the biggest in the region.

The situation is as iqbal said,do not look from a distance, go jump into the sea and do battle with the waves,for immortality is won through striving.....that I may go in quest of the new spirit and become its acknowledged champion

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guru mian

9/11...drove 60 miles....did rituals...gita...sivananda...kalima...

There is crazy, and then there is Hindu crazy.

guru sahib, please stop harassing your friend by imposing your gobbledegook on them.

Re: # 578; tahmed:

Thanks. I have said this time and again, I have absolutely no problem with YOUR Islam; I wish there were others like you in the muslim world, even 1% of the total and we'd be on a winner!

I reckon sometimes it is best to be truthful about the'realities of life'. If I as a doctor tell someone that they don't have incurable cancer (when they actually do), I wouldn' be honest and that is the problem here. If someone wants to get through life deluding themselves at every difficulty life poses, that seems like a pitiful existence to me.

I agree completely about the poor in our part of the world; I am not from a particulary previleged background myself. Someone HAS to bite the bullet and make people realise when they have been taken for a ride. As Faiz would say:

"Koee unko ehsaas-e-zillat diade;
Koee unki soee hui dum hilaade".

Berating and challenging any ideology is part of that process and will continue in todays era of information technology; the old-fashioned censorship is passe; if they ban youtube, there are many other ways but one needs to KNOW when and how to look for it! That mentality is a product of skepticism and doubt and NOT blind faith.

Re: # 612

Massaddi Mian:

"....Enterpreneurial energy in the non primary product ... sector never fluorishes by integrating into the global capitalist system with established players unless protection- the very antithesis of capitalism- is applied...."


Entrepreneurial Energy:
Massaddi Mian's ignorance is bigger than his ego which allows him to use high sounding words hoping he can fool people.

He has confused and jumbled "reality", "nationalized / state ownership" etc. etc. in the past. He is doing that even right now with Mazumdar, but I will leave that for now.

I would only demonstrate what entrepreneurial energy is, talk about the relevance of primary and non-primary products to entrepreneurial energy. I know even these are beyond his comprehension, but I want to explain these so that he cannot confuse others.

Entrepreneurial energy is as ingrained as ideas (revolutionary for time were in Mohammad) were to have come up with the book, system to propogate and strategy to grow the followers. He implemented the strategy through example and then left this world for his successors to have something more than just ideas or a book. Massaddi Mian it loves to the extent of being Islamic red-neck, and hence is stated above.

The drivers for entrepreneurs are: ability to see opportunity before the others, create differentiation with the giants, beat the giants, and stay ahead of the giant. Entrepreneur ceases to be an entrepreneur when he / she starts loosing out on these drivers.

Microsoft became Microsoft and Bill Gates became the richest man from entreprenuership. This had nothing to do with primary or non-primary products.

He saw a secular trend ahead of others. Out of his gut decided to no to into manufacturing of computers, but through negotiated agreement for non-exclusive licensing of DOS, he created what other group of more successful entrepreneurs, Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak could not achieve - created a personal computer industry.

Giant IBM made two contemporaneou mistakes - one got software done outside with microsoft - although they had no option. This gave birth to Microsoft. Other mistake by giant IBM was in workstation, despite being the owner of the best desktop engineering workstations, they did not introduce to the market - purest of the pure capitalism. SUN Microsystems engineers, students at Stanford saw a need, while IBM fought internal battles. SUN stands for Stanford University Network. SUN had perfect software solution, and a proprietory hardware platform for network computing. They stubbornly remained stuck to the bundled solution, else Intenet scene would have produced a new software giant like Google, much before Google. Scot McNealy forgot where entrepreneurial engery was coming from in SUN, and chose, quite quixotically WINTEL, only to fall back on INTEL.

Seeing ahead of others, being fast on feet, obsolescing your own products and services before others do, and taking all of this to market ahead of others - giants included who have inherent latency to respond, is where entrepreneurial energy is spent.

If this law of nature was not true dinosaurs would not have died, Mohammad's message would not be in over 1 billion minds.

Islamic red-neck along with other red-necks will be ruling the world.

Luckily for all, Islamic red-necks like Massaddi Mian realize it after it is too late. That the book they have been reading and preaching is old, was discarded long ago, the rules have changed. They do become dinasours and red-necks.

Those who have money and power to stay big, get into frenzy of conquering through buying, it is called consolidation, and continue the march.

Entrepreneurship is way beyond Islamic Red-neck, Massaddi Mian and his running dogs.

Primary and Non-Primary Products:
This terminology of primary and non-primary product comes from commodity-technology model of looking at the market and businesses and economic value addition.

Primary product is something that is created from the main pocess of manufacturing or service for the market.

For example, oil is primary to oil refineries. Investment is made and realized to build business out of primary product.

Since technology is powerful and had multi-use, therefore can be used to generate other products (non-primary products). In case of refinery - plastics, chemicals inputs to other industry.

Non-primary products are generated without significant investment in technology. This allows companies to create business lines of non-primary products to taken to market on incremental cost and therefore, huge profits.

Anyone trying to set up an industry/business purely for non-primary products will have impossible job to make money, as it must recover entire capital and fixed costs on the non-primary products alone.

Massaddi Mian:
Where is the basis to claim a connection between entrepreneurship and non-primary products?

Simply weird, I only hope Massaddi Mians are not teaching the best and the brightest of Pakistan.

Hamid Sahib:
Please send your or your friends kids to such classes.

#616 Posted by masadi on March 20, 2008 11:53:55 am

going by your ridiculous standards, everything can be credited to the first african who walked out of africa and evolved into the chinese...

US drones hovering over North Waziristan

Our Staff Reporter
BANNU - Bomb disposal squad Wednesday diffused here a bomb that was planted under a bridge on Bannu-Miran Shah Road.
The passers-by witnessed a suspicious box lying under Bannu-Miran Shah linking bridge in Mamash Khel area and informed the police. The police called bomb disposal squad, which searched the box and found locally made bomb that was diffused. The route upon which the bomb was planted is being used for the transportation of security forces to Miran Shah.
Online adds: The US spy planes were seen hovering over the headquarters of North Waziristan, Miranshah and its adjoining areas. According to a private TV channel, the flights of US drones over the Miranshah, Mir Ali and Ghulam Khan created concern among the tribal people, however, the drone did not carry out any action.
US drones fired three missiles three days ago resulting in the death of 20 persons while five sustained injuries.
Meanwhile, girls schools have been closed for indefinite period of time after receiving threatening letters from extremists in Darra Adam Khel. Noor Ali Kalay girls model school including some other schools received threatening letters, which caused the closure of these schools. Residents have refused sending their children to schools.
People are still under the fear after the blast occurred in Peero Waal Girls School some days back.

Re: # 605
"
bubba, both you and urstruly are right. And most Muslims can understand that.

There are basic, fundamental, and ultimately unbridgeable differences between Muslims and non-Muslims (Hindus being the most extreme non-Muslim people).
"

Right about what?

What is Muslim? After 9/11 went early morning before work driving 60 miles to in cold to comfort scared 60ish Indian Muslims couple from Hydrabad for 7 days. Did whole ritual of morning prayer as they do. Recited verses from short 40 page book wit English translations. At the end he told I have recited Kalima or some such thing for 7 days. His wife insisted that I am a Muslim. I had to convey that I was Muslim even before I recited Kalima. She asked why dont you take Muslim name? I did not want to hurt her feeling. I brought their grocery, milk chicken because they were scared to go out. But for them I was a person not belonging to them. Why?

I had to convey them that consider me a Muslim who
--
believes and tries to act Patanjali Yoga Sutra,

does everyday 90 min of Bikram Yoga (because it cured my severe ulcer, piles, shoulder dislocations and many other ailments),

loves to read Geeta and interpretatiion by chinmayanada, shivananda.

By doing these practices I have no physical ailments anymore, eats only once in two days and need only 4 hrs of sleep. The ailments mentioned were from childhood.

Good health and financial success which I am enjoying itself is a paradise.

Now, am I not a good Muslim by being a good Hindu?

Why are you converting a converted?
--

Scoundrels wear their religions on their sleeves. Humanity does not need religion to tell to be human or Muslim. When we do not do our own Dharma ie personal calling very well (new enterprises, patentable ideas educational projects) we try to hide behind organized religion. If Osama had built a dam in Afghanistan using his money and civil eng background he would have created paradise for himself and others here on earth.
goodbye

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