New US Strategy Needed in Afghanistan and Pakistan

AA

Iraq, Oil, China, protecting American geo-political interests (ie hegemony)that was always their first and last priority. Why on earth would they be involved in a country with no natural resources to exploit except for the convenience of providing air bases and launching pads.

Pavo,

What's w_t p______s ????

why don't you ask the military officers what they think should be done about the insurgency?

they'll tell you they're chomping at the bit to go into pakiland in a major campaign...no chickenshit drones whacking a small number of people...

agha,
This belongs to the other board but I thought what the heck, I can post it here.

You are right about the current ANP. It is more or less the PPP of the NWFP. Both ANP and PPP in my opinion are centrist parties, whereas NS and his league is to the right of center!

"Afghanistan and even Pakistan may be compared to a sort of West Germany and South Korea for USA."

........... this was the funniest line i have read in a long time ! ........ i am sure gutenberg, martin luther, leibniz, kant, beethoven, nietzsche and von braun are rollig around in their graves, not to mention the korean guy who invented kimchee !!!!!!!!

....damn, pavo ! ..... you are good !

This is a well-written and informative piece.

It is now generally agreed in the USA (if not officially acknowledged) that venturing into Iraq created a serious distraction from the more important task of rebuilding Afghanistan and addressing the concerns of its population. I believe that most US policymakers had this idea that the Afghans only wanted to be “liberated” from the Taliban and after that will take things in their own hands, so did not consider addressing the strong systemic factors which caused the Taliban to take root and spread in the first place.

There has always been a divergence of views on policy options for Afghanistan between the Defense and State Departments.

At present, it is highly unlikely that ANY US president will commit to a long-term stay in Afghanistan - certainly not a two decade stay. That would be considered a bit like throwing good money after money which has gone bad.

Can you provide some clippings from the Washington Post coverage of this issue in 2005 that you refer to?

Agha Amin: I read the first para. and found a very serious shortcoming in your thinking. You see - the US and NATO isnt in Afghanistan to win hearts and minds. They are there to protect themselves from future taliban making Afghanistan a safe haven for terrorists.

If you are confused on such a basic point, do you really think you have the ability to propose any grand strategies? (training from World Famous Kakul University notwithstanding).

Re: # 5

Hamidm sahib,

This is something that would never happen though. The muslim leaders are very good at enflaming the situation and trying to raise anti-absolutely anything sentiments amonsgst their flock; what we have seen in Iraq. In Iraq its muslims killing muslims but the arguments are always turned around and the "occupation" blamed for the "insurgency"; what insurgency! These are crackpots, misguided by their own brands of Zeemaxes, who incidently, despite knowing the "fast track" to the virgins in the afterlife, WILL NEVER put their own necks where their mouths are! Pity they can always find someone more deserving of the honour!

In one of your previous interacts you mentioned something along the lines of "leasing" Pakistan over to the americans for a few years/decades. It has the potential to go down the same route as Iraq though; something that has already started by the looks of things.

In order to be another West Germany, and there is nothing wrong with the idea, ther has to be some level of pre-existing enlightenment in a society. All we have is rhetoricians like Iqbal, whose whole effort was spent in simply re-affirming his faith for the Ummah by combining the 'god of the philosophers with the god of islam'; a concept far too common amongst the so-called philosophers/thinkers of the Muslim world.

And if one does come up with something new, he is branded a "Kafir/murtid" and dealt with appropriately and efficiently.

There is something very inherently peculiar about the muslim world; it is this firm adherence to a cult mentality combined with tribalistic barbarism that defines our faith; without that image, it means nothing to the garden variety muslim.

Re: # 5

Hamidm Sahib:

NY Times reported 4 FBI personal were injured in Islamabad blast.

This is a watershed event that turns the U.S. and West's policy toward Pakistan. How can perpetrators are not traitors to Pakistan, their action can destabilize Pakistan?

What Kissinger called "ambiguity" of Pakistan to locations of terrorists, will be dealt very differently than it had been so far.

I also do not know how democratic government can alone deal with urban terrorism? Pakistan is dragged into targeted urban terrorism. This is result of ambiguity due to present infestation of cancer cells in the present Pakistani institutions, whatever they are in pre-cursor to evolution of democratic institution. There is a lot of destroyed before construction can follow. This in Hindus trinity means, Pakistan needs Shiva - the destroyer, then Brahma - the creator, and followed by Vishnu - preserver. It seem there are many ready to be Vishnu from grass root elections.

Others may choose to focus on Kissinger's other diplomatic words of non-involvement, but the "amibuity" really spells new rules of engagement with and in Pakistan.

How far were you building your retirement home from this site of attack?

Re: # 5

Hamidm Sahib:

"...i am sure gutenberg, martin luther, leibniz, kant, beethoven, nietzsche and von braun are rollig around in their graves, not to mention the korean guy who invented kimchee !!!!!!!!..."

And Panini too. Although, his ashes must be mixed in the local soil which probably cannot turn, but burn.

Now please do not ask me who is Panini. I already told you who he was. You researched and told me that he was born not too far from your own birth place.

You indeed have a very bad tendency to forget, what may be great and Pakistani too. Before, something went wrong, greatness, and great people were born and lived there too.

"Koi beete hue din wapas nahin lautayega, Hamidm Sahib. Koi bhi nahin."

The difference between Pavo and the hamidms/ akcheemas of the world is the same as between men and mice.

Cheema sahib,

Islamists have never ruled Iraq or Pakistan. So how are the "Zeemax types" to blame for the mess in Iraq and A'stan?

Regards

Agha Sahib:

I have recently stayed away from Pak-related boards because my eyes start to hurt after staring a while at the computer (any desi totaka to avoid that?) and because anything you read on Pakistan in the morning is obsolete by the evening. But I read yours because you write more in strategic terms. I was somewhat disappointed as the article lacked the depth of your earlier articles.

I think that it is well acknowledged that Bush foolishly left Afghanistan too early to Karzai and Co. for his misadventure in Iraq. I don't think that focussing on infrastructure was a mistake. The mistake was to ignore the governance aspect, especially developing an efficient police and army. I recall that they were at one time using Indians to train their police, a worse trainer perhaps could not be found anywhere in the world.

It now looks certain that Pak politicians will now have to deal with US; this bodes ill in my opinion, especially since Nawaz Sharif seems to have agreed to be a part of the government. Since any govt. will have to cooperate willy-nilly with the US WOT, they will all get egg in their faces from the people who may not have a choice but to tilt towards islamist parties. I hope I am wrong but this is what I think might happen.

Maybe Mush will leave and Nawaz will sit in opposition; in that case people can turn to him if the government is discredited for doing the US dirty work.

“no substantial class of stakeholders which had a vested interest in success of US policy inside Afghanistan was created.”

After hamid’s post, it is hard to take this article seriously.

By not creating stakeholders within the afghan society, the US has set up its mission to be a failure! But the question is whether the US was looking to develop an economically viable and socially progressive country out of the tribal Afghanistan in the first Place?

Tahmed #7 does not believe so and he is right in that regard. The US never had any interest in helping Afghanistan come out of its thousands of years old misery. The solution that the US had was military and like in Iraq, the US never planned for anything that might develop Afghanistan economically.

However, at the run up to the war the US media and the US government did talk about the human rights issues and the Women’s right issues.

At least in the US, media made lots of noises about the women’s situation Afghanistan and what the US needs to do to help the women in Afghanistan. Women’s liberation does not happen in isolation. It can only happen through sustained economic activity.
Cleary, all the talk about the poor afghan women was just talk!

The mission that the US had was to rid Afghanistan of the terrorism and the terrorist. The US has failed in that mission too. The first job was to get OBL dead or alive but he was suspiciously let go and then the US President ludicrously told the media that OBL does not matter.

“The US has invested billions in Afghanistan.”

Is that right? Yes, there are more shops in Kabul, more banks and more hotels but interestingly most of them are within a confined area where the US army is prominently present. Roads have improved in some areas and there are lots of contractors everywhere from every part of the world! Travel from Peshawar to Kabul by road is pretty safe as that route is used by the Pakistan importers or re-importer or smugglers, who own shops in Peshawar.

One thing Agha misses completely is that US cannot create ambitious new businessmen in a vacuum! The Afghans are used to their traditional businesses and they are not going to start owning the industrial houses just because the US would like to them to do that.

I think Afghanistan is destined to remain a wretched country that it was in the 70s and the 30 years of civil war has perhaps emotionally drained people to an extent that they would probably be shy of accepting new people and new ideas for a long time.

The US still needs to complete its first mission that Tahmed mentioned and since there appears to be no urgency in the US attitude towards Afghanistan, we can safely assume that the US will stay in Afghanistan indefinitely and mostly with the help of the US army.

I doubt that there will ever be any attempt to win the hearts and minds of the people. That was never intended and the occupation now is just a military presence to intimidate other afghan neighbors in the south and the north! I will not even mention the east!

Re: # 7
"They are there to protect themselves from future taliban making Afghanistan a safe haven for terrorists."

While you accuse Mr. Agha, don't YOU know what this war (occupation then destruction) by one country on the rest is all about? How can you NOT point the finger at the horrible U.S. strategic interests (plundering of others' natural wealth)!

Sleep well...

Re: # 8

Muslim starts with a capital letter (not 'muslim').

Correct formatting is very important my dear doctor Watson, in case you lost the magnifier!

Peace.

Re: # 11
Through independent analysis of some 'soiled' sons-of-the-soil, I am arriving at the same conclusion...

Peace.

Re: # 12

Majumdar, exactly WHO are you? Are you muslim, hindu, Indian or Pakistani? You seem to pretend to be one or the other, depending on what suits the moment; if I am not mistaken, very similar to someone called Eklavya the Chakerbaaz here!

I don't have time for a detailed answer but here is the Pakistani perspective. Have you ever lived there? All this has been happening for a long time before the gwot etc. The caretaker of Khana Farhang Iran in Lahore (Sadiq Ganji) was killed, I think in early 1990s, by Sipaah-e-sihaaba; there was no direct american presence at the time, although the conspiracist on this panel will have you believe otherwise. In Lahore we used to here about "bum dhamakas" all over the place; that seems to be the only argument the jihadists have ever had! Rather than blaming "RAW/MOSSAD/CIA" or whoever, has anyone ever looked in OUR OWN midst?

I was one of these Jihadis myself, it may surprise you. Despite having very little "belief" in anything, my family have been deeply involved with the Jamaat-e-Islami, my father being a "Rukan". I was a "Rafique" of Islami Jamiat-e-talaba and this close from Afghanistan during the fight against the Soviets. Many a trips to Mansoora, with teachings of the great Maududi of Ichhra and his Egyptian mates Syed Qutb/Hasan-ul-Banna discussed day and night; many audiences with the likes of Khurram Murad, Professor Khurshid (from Leicester, UK), Mian Tufail and subsequently Qazi Hussain Ahmed. So please don't tell me I know nothing on the subject; same for you Zeemax.

The teachings of these guys has always been to make Islam the "Deen-e-Ghalib" in the world. The current affairs, if anything, are a distraction off the main theme.

I know exactly what the Jihadi mentality is because I was one myself!

Re: # 16

Is that all you can say?! Clearly nothing with substance like all your other mates here.

I will one day read your article but what offended me was an embedded advertisement that displays a woman with her right hand over her left breast claiming, 'Live and work in the U.S.'

If we all did THAT, who will deal with things over HERE? The billions in foreign investment have ruined, but never saved nations.

Peace.

Re: # 19
Yes that is ALL I can say because THIS is what I must say. One day you will see the substance in the capital 'M'. Alas, the teachers let you spell away muslim as you pleased...

What other mates? Have you ever heard of a lion hunting with a pack of wolves?

Over and out.

Cheema sahib,

(Majumdar, exactly WHO are you? )

I am a Bengali, Hindoo, an Indian citizen and resident of India if that is of any interest to you. I have never pretended to be otherwise.

(very similar to someone called Eklavya)

I am certainly very flattered to be compared to Kaal bhai, although whether he will be similarly pleased I dunno.

I am sure you know more about the history of Pakistan and its evolution than I do. But what you have missed is the fact that the jihadisation of Pak soceity was brought about by the feudal elite themselves (people like Mamdot and later ZAB) and the military rulers. And from 1970s connived at by USA which had its own use for jihad in A'stan. Surely you wud remember that Reagan had called Jalaluddin Haqqani as A'stan's equivalent of their Founding Father.

The current mess wud never have happened had the founders of Pak post MAJ (pbuh) run Pakistan as a proper democracy. Thus the mess is of military/feudal elites misdeeds not those of people like Zee sahib.

Regards

Re: # 18
For this profile I must thank you!

What's ruinous in trying to enforce 'deen-e-ghalib' globally is that the required work has not been done and which may appear pleasingly visible to the rest of the world. It's like doing an autopsy on a body that does not exist!

Peace.
PS: forget the sermons, do what needs to be done, read a decent translation, and treat the patients well.

#22 Posted by majumdar,

Reagan had called Jalaluddin Haqqani as A'stan's equivalent of their Founding Father.

Correction, Majumdar Saheb. Reagan had called Jalaluddin Haqqani (and others in that delegation) "The moral equivalent of our founding fathers". The 'our' meaning the 'Americans', not Afghans!

#18 Posted by akcheema

I was a "Rafique" of Islami Jamiat-e-talaba ... I was one of these Jihadis myself ...

akcheema Saheb, you are curiously either a schizophrenic or simply in the habit of fibbing a lot. It's got to be one of the two.

Not too long ago, in fact just a few days ago (when you had promised to leave till May but then didn't), you had said you have been a non-believer since you were 12 or 14 years old or something like that. Now how come you were a "Rafique" of Islami Jamiat-e-talaba while being a murtid at the same time?

Re: # 24

Thanks for the clarification. I suppose that's allright then. If Reagan said something, it must be true.

I am just having a flashback here, may be somewhere I saw video footages of Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam Hussain; must be some "maslihat"; why do we insist on picking and choosing the past "statements" of gora leaders (esp Americans) to justify OUR OWN arguments, I wonder. Or do we now believe in everything else Reagan said and did as well?

Re: # 25

I am away from home, not dead Zeemax. Amir-ul-momineen made sure there were no platforms (such as Student's Union etc) available for student politics. DSF/NSF etc alongwith PSF were classed as "Surkhas" and a big no no for most.

Just not having belief doesn't stop one wondering and wanting to do something about the injustices around them.

If you don't believe what I said, please feel free to check the record. Zubair Khan Babar was our Nazim at King Edward Medical College who was killed in a cross fire with the party belonging to someone else, who is still alive. A bunch of people, in my group, had to leave for, shall we say, overseas for various reasons at the time..... do you really want me to go on?.......

Zee sahib,

Oops, I meant American when I said "their". I wonder if Mr. Reagan remembers that any more!!!

Btw why can't a person be a rafique and a murtid at the same time???

Regards

Re: # 27

P.S.: I don't think I'd be discussing this anymore unless someone specifically wants to....water under the bridge eh...

Re: 28 Majumdar):

When one is young, we all make mistakes. All my family, as I said, are "Jamaatis"; my brother and father both active and no less vocal than a lot of people here. It was almost like continuing the tradition to a point....but no more....
btw, Zee has every right to question the validity of such statement.... I was expecting this question...that should suffice for now I reckon...

Cheema sahib,

Re: 28

Whatever your beliefs you have an absolute right upon them. And you shud be free to change them if you are convinced that you need to change your belief.

Regards

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as a rule I am not interested in interacting with some people who are just trying to pull everyone's leg.

companies from Korea,Lebanon,UAE,USA,all parts of Europe,Central Asia have come to do business in Afghanistan.If the USA could have set up a textile free zone with buy back guarantees and quota free export to USA in Jalalabad,Torkham near Pakistan many hundreds of Indian Pakistani and Chinese industrialists would have rushed to establish units.Textile labour can be trained in a few months.Already many thousands Afghans are working in Pakistan in textile sector and would be glad to work in their own country.There is no shortage of labour.Similar industrial free zones could have been set up in Mazar,Hairatan and Herat near raw material sources of cotton.Already Herat is having a booming industry but no special zone.Electricity is guaranteed in Herat 24 hours.So is the case in Mazar.

About strategy I expect to interact with some one who has burnt his midnight oil and knows what he is talking about.

further the conclusion that should be drawn from what I have said is that the USA has not come win hearts and minds absolute nonsense,if some peanut brain thinks that then he is wasting his time and my time.yes the Russians when it was USSR did set up many industries which went a far away in creating employment.

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Masadi sahib,

So why is USA interested in occupying A'stan and Pakistan whereas its economic interets lie in occupying Iraq and its oil? Can it simply not declare a victory in A'stan and walk out?

Regards

Re: # 32

What you have highlighted in your article makes sense to me. Everyone in the world would want what is best for their part of the world. Unfortunately in the Muslim world, it is not always achievable. We are just too suspiscious and regard everything coming our way as a "conspiracy" by someone. That is the point I was trying to make before before getting side-tracked.

Same with Americans in Iraq; so what if they are there for oil. It is for the Iraqis to form some sort of give and take partnership with them to achieve what is best for THEIR countries. A distraction from that and trying to blame "conspiracy" for every little "difficulty" we might have doesn't get us anywhere.

I think both Afghanistan and Iraq should individually decide (and independent of their "Maamay" in the rest of the muslim world) what is best for their own countries. Unfortunately there has been too much interference from everyone. Too many people just taking the easy route of blaming it on some "conspiracy".

The Palestinians are a living proof of this tragic way of thinking. There are a handful of individuals (in the greater scheme of things) that could have been sorted out long ago; the interference from everywhere has been responsible for the mess they are in; and the muslim world has its own share of blame in this. The Saudis, rather than providing them with useful and positive ways of achieving their political objectives, have both overtly and covertly provided them with "martyr-widow-pensions concept" to carry out suicide bombings. I mean the Pakistanis have not even made any serious attempt to get the few thousand Biharis from Bangladesh! It is astounding when such countries want to be "the nishan-e-manzil" for the rest of the muslim world. These delusions of grandeur have to be kept under control of one's higher senses to have fruitful discussions about anything.

#27 Posted by akcheema,

No I don't want you to go on about your life story ... I just want to know how come you were a murtid and a member of the IJT at the same time ...!

Now don't gimme that about "Just not having belief doesn't stop one wondering and wanting to do something about the injustices around them." If you wanted to be a do-gooder why didn't you join the boy scouts instead of IJT?

#32 Posted by pavocavalry on March 16, 2008 11:22:58 pm


companies from Korea,Lebanon,UAE,USA,all parts of Europe,Central Asia have come to do business in Afghanistan.If the USA could have set up a textile free zone with buy back guarantees and quota free export to USA in Jalalabad,Torkham near Pakistan many hundreds of Indian Pakistani and Chinese industrialists would have rushed to establish units.Textile labour can be trained in a few months.Already many thousands Afghans are working in Pakistan in textile sector and would be glad to work in their own country.There is no shortage of labour.Similar industrial free zones could have been set up in Mazar,Hairatan and Herat near raw material sources of cotton.Already Herat is having a booming industry but no special zone.Electricity is guaranteed in Herat 24 hours.So is the case in Mazar.


you know nothing about business..you should stick to topics that are your forte..

first of all, the margins in the textile business are very thin...think walmart..secondly, a textile unit in afghanistan would have a security premium whether the US backed it or not. thirdly, efficiencies of scale means a "textile free zone" in afghanistan still can't compete with a major player in china or india....then there's the whole business of having to transport the products through pakiland...

and lastly, only a fool would invest money in a country that hasn't been stabilized...

Re: # 37

my only explanation has already been given; perhaps it was the same sense of tribalistic loyalty mentality that all of us possess in Pakistan.

Zee, you are something! I have put many challenges/question for you; you haven't been able to answer a single one satisfactorily; then you have the audacity to turn around arguments and give yourself a sense of victory. If that helps your meglomaniacal self, fine with me. I hold the view that you are a complete idiot but that is just my humble opinion.

Its all word games with you isn't it?; "pride without substance" as I keep saying.

Thank you and now the coast is clear for you to make any personal remarks about my "Irtad" or anything else of your choosing. I really have to do some work.

#36 Posted by akcheema on March 16, 2008 11:45:22 pm


I think both Afghanistan and Iraq should individually decide (and independent of their "Maamay" in the rest of the muslim world) what is best for their own countries. Unfortunately there has been too much interference from everyone. Too many people just taking the easy route of blaming it on some "conspiracy".


nau sau chuhe kha ke billi haj ko gayi...

why didn't this wisdom dawn on you when you created the taliban and supported their takeover of afghanistan for your sstrategic depth wet dreams..remember...some of us were around before 9/11 and have memories like elephants..we remember the days before 9/11 when geographically challenged pakis had delusions of their geostrategic importance and thought they were the bees knees because they were the gateway to central asia..hardly any paki was against the paki interference in afghanistan...

after 9/11 you all are suddenly live-and-let-live types now? maybe this has something to do with the predators and the civil war that's raging in the land of the pure..a civil war brought about by the bomb-ya-to-stone-age phone call tht made you voluntarily give up your support for the jihad..

#30 Posted by majumdar re Cheema sahib,

Whatever your beliefs you have an absolute right upon them. And you shud be free to change them if you are convinced that you need to change your belief.

look, this is how the discussion went:

Zeemax: You're a murtid.

Cheema: No I'm not!

Zeemax: How come you're not?

Cheema: Because one's a murtid if one stops believing, but I've never been believer in the first place and have been non-believer since I was 12/14 years old etc.

Interval...

Cheema: I know more than you because I was a Jihadi and a member of Islami Jamiat Tulba.

Zeemax: Huh? How can you be both a murtid and a jihadi/IJT member?

Cheema: Because other student Unions had a bad reputation and joining them was a no-no ... and I wanted to fight injustice. But don't want to talk about the past ... etc etc.

Zeemax: Huh? Huh? Why not boy scouts instead of IJT?


********Zeemax rolling on the floor******

maybe the great geostrategic thinkers(yup..zeemax) should help the pakistani government with their thinking...

I posted this last year..talks don't seem to have worked, judging by the number of hellfires..

http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/july-2007/23/index14.php

Pak top brass talks with US to avert attacks

Shaiq Hussain
ISLAMABAD - In the backdrop of fierce clashes between the army, paramilitary forces and militants in North Waziristan, Pakistan’s top security brass is engaged in intense negotiations with senior officials in Washington to avert possible US attacks on the restive tribal belt.
Strong indications from the US capital suggest growing restlessness among the security cadres over the surge in violence in Pakistan’s tribal belt and the alleged regrouping of Al-Qaeda and Taliban there.
The diplomatic circles here believe that the Bush administration was under increased pressure to mount assaults against the Al-Qaeda and Taliban militants in Waziristan from Afghanistan.
They said that in such a worrisome scenario, Pakistan was all out in its contacts with the top officials in Bush administration to avert possible military action from the US led allied forces on its soil fearing it would lead to catastrophic repercussions.

Zee sahib,

Re: 41

I dont know Cheema sahib's beliefs but I can explain the paradox in two ways.

1.

Cheema sahib was never a believer but he joined the IJT just to infiltrate it for outside agencies sake or his own curiosity or becuase he wanted to use IJT's network for his own cause. Later he came out of the IJT. So he was both an IJT member and never being a beleiver not be a murtid either.

2.

Cheema sahib may have joined the IJT before he was 12-14 years of age. And then left IJT and has never been a believer since then.

Regards

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#44 Zeemax

Palestine, Iraq, A’stan…. You talk about persieved injustices done to muslims by non-muslims…. Have you ever thought about the injustices done by islam to non –arabs… and non-mislims ? … then you will know why non- muslims have issues with islam / arabs?

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Re 47 Masadi,

"war without end" is a good description of Islam of marauders who came from arabia and destroyed that particular region. For the good of humanity 17 million pakis should start the long march back to mecca.

There is not an iota of spirituality left in Islam as practiced with the help of the book. Islam perpetuate outward looking. Either to the 72 houries or perceived injustice by hindus or west. The most fanatic among them are the first one to sleep with the west for example Pakis, Saudis and gulf emerites. On this board darbari gandu monto is doing secular tamasha because he looks good to DC darbar.

Masadi, visited your site. Big effort! But seems repetitive. Summerize and come up with 3 point action plan. The first should be Peace. You should start with yourself. If you do not have a wife, get one to start a life. Love the female and have babies. Love them. You will grow better with the family than in the company of alien dead prophets and western philosophers. Wordy, shrude family-less lawyer caused so much havoc to the world in the last century. Millions killed & raped and tens of millions uprooted. That draculla also had good English writing and speaking skills like Monto and you. Hope you do not turn into such a cruel dracula.

Re: # 46: ZEEMAX

Zee as I have explained before, I did what I did to keep my family happy, especially my father who had that kind of role planned for me perhaps even before I was born. At 15, in Pakiland, one can use euphemisms but very difficult to say how you feel openly; I am sure you'd agree on that at least.

As for not taking pride in being a 'murtid', I am very proud of it sir; I just said I didn't like THAT word. I'd much prefer a muslim apostate but feel free to call me what you want. Hamidm seems like a decent fellow and I don't think he has anything to be ashamed of, and I am certain he isn't.

Perhaps the same way as your name can't possibly be Zeemax in real life; isn't it a car or something! So are you living a "duplicate/schizophrenic" life as well? Or have parents in the Islamic Republic gone completely loopy.....

Now, Khuda Hafiz and sleep well...

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Masadi,

A corollary of what you say in #53 of course would be that neither Pakistan nor A'stan are of great strategic importance to USA and should things get hot, USA wud not think much before decamping.

Which shud be good news for Pakistan. It may get a breathing space from American interference in its domestic politics.

Regards

#50 Posted by treetop on March 17, 2008 2:17:15 am

Yar, u pl change ur name/ID else we r constrained think u r a monkey. :(

As for the research, yes, the length of Indian coks is 'average' and u need to ask al-Lah why he did that (since he's the creator of all human beings).

If u ask me yes, it depends on the depth of the women folk who complement men in sex. If women are not complaining, u need not. OK?

If u want to have a laugh on the size of Indian dicks then see this video by Russell Peters who has his own take on the 'size' of Indian men.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KX4NGyT6bok

I think the only strategy that US needs at this time is to figure out whether they want to leave Afghanistan with their patloons or without them. If they cannot control a tiny landlocked country with an air tight border, with the help of armies from 37 countries, and a complacent United Nations that looks the other way at this genocide, in 7 years, then it is most likely that they will not be able to control it in next 7 years either.

One positive thing that has come out of this genocide is that in Pakistan, it military, dictatorship, and the corrupt pro-western ruling elite has been exposed and discredited for good. So they have to make a choice too - wanna leave with patloons on or without them.

I think the only strategy that US needs at this time is to figure out whether they want to leave Afghanistan with their patloons or without them. If they cannot control a tiny landlocked country with an air tight border, with the help of armies from 37 countries, and a complacent United Nations that looks the other way at this genocide, in 7 years, then it is most likely that they will not be able to control it in next 7 years either.

One positive thing that has come out of this genocide is that in Pakistan, it military, dictatorship, and the corrupt pro-western ruling elite has been exposed and discredited for good. So they have to make a choice too - wanna leave with patloons on or without them.

Urstruly,

A'stan isn't a small country by any means and its borders are very porous particularly with Iran and Pakistan.

Regards

"the interference from everywhere has been responsible..."

cheema ji

Left to themselves, Palestinians would be simply hammered by the Israelis. A small number of people - ideologically driven - would never give up, but their chances of success would diminish drastically.

Besides, local people have a great tendency to settle for unjust peace - merely to lead 'normal' lives with their 'friends' and 'acquaintances.'

To establish just orders, in practical terms, you absolutely need participation from 'outsiders' who are free from those limitations (or you need a dictator who imposes justice on people).

Relatively, the fewer or less-valued the local ties, and stronger the external participation, the easier and sooner justice can be brought to local people.

So please don't knock this 'external' interference, unless you are willing to lead unjust lives.

what to do with the afghans ?

.... pavo wants the americans to stay and teach them how to make textiles while listening to mozart...... here is a nation that in its entire history hasn't produced anything other than raw opium (they cannot even make heroin which has to be processed on the other side of the border) and we want them to actually make something! ........ this is just too funny ! .......... it might be easier to train an indian to eat with utensils .......

masadi #34: i read this post, and was shocked to see you got this one right.

The post-in-a-million that masadi got right:

pavo writes "About strategy I expect to interact with some one who has burnt his midnight oil and knows what he is talking about"

Pavo man you need to learn how to argue, what you wrote above is a cheap excuse and a shallow escape, present reasons not your "authority",

pavocavalry #32 "If the USA could have set up a textile free zone..in Jalalabad,Torkham"

Textile free zone!! Are you calling for setting up a nudist colony in Jalalabad?

HP #14 I think as long as US/NATO performs the job that a national army performs (keep law and order) in Afghanistan, without getting into a "mission creep" of nation-building, nature will takes its course. Investors will come, and the Afghans themselves are a hardy, enterprising lot. With dictatorship out in Pakistan, Afghanistan's biggest security issue will solve itself in due course.

The Pushtuns in general, and the Afghans in particular, are one of the most industrious, mobile, and hardworking people in the world. They're particularly adept at commerce & trade of merchandise and money businesses including informal lending and foreign exchange. Their abilities in these areas are well known since the 'Pavindah' traveling salesmen/women merchandising wares all over the Subcontinent, to the present day Bara markets, the long-haul trucking all over Pakistan, the Qissa Khwani retail FX/money-market in Peshawar where dollars are traded in paan-stall sized outlets in bundles and Afghani currency in sacks, to the parallel worldwide remittance business turning over billions of dollars each day - faster than banks and delivered at payee's address like Fedex in 24 hours - with not a single known default, when even banks fail all the time. In manufacturing, one can buy the complete range from a perfect copy of Smith & Wesson hand-tooled side arm, to a light anti-aircraft machine-gun in Darra Adam Khel - all manufactured locally in garage sized workshops. They are known to be honest and fair in their dealings and their word is their bond.

Pavo is entirely just in lamenting why they are considered only worthy of bombs but not good enough to be given a few trade zones of a few hundred million dollars. Worst scenario would be they would run it into the ground. So?

Now the chutyas can please continue about how they're only good for blowing themselves up.

Re: # 64

zeemax,

... so you want the americans and other infidels to stay and bail out the afghans ? ...... i thought you were against the 'occupation' .... make up your mind - you can't have your halwa and eat it too ......

hamidm: if you can wine and dine, why cant zeemax whine and dine?

#65 Posted by hamidm2,

No. I don't want americans to stay. I want them to compensate the Afghans for all the damage these b'tards have done. If they don't have the decency to do even that, they should just fcuk off and Pakistan will help Afghans in rebuilding their country.

And you tahmed32, you should believe what you say re all that about some religion of 'Individual responsibility to (your) God'. How're you going to justify your opinions?

Anyhow .. it appears I wasn't disappointed in the expectation expressed in #64 that "Now the chutyas can please continue about how they're only good for blowing themselves up."

#52 Posted by akcheema,

...in being a 'murtid', I am very proud of it sir; I just said I didn't like THAT word. I'd much prefer a muslim apostate

So you like and accept the English name for the same thing, but not the Urdu/Arabic one.

Is there any end to gora ass-licking? How far are you willing to go? At the end of the day you'll just be an ass-licker. Is that how you want to meet your grave? With shit on your face?

Perhaps it's a matter of choice ... same as monkeys and other assorted animals like hindooos chose.

WTF is "Deen-e-Gandu"

whatever it is I am pretty sure Zeemaderchod is a part of it.

Dear PAVO bhayya,

Good article, but before commenting on the strategical aspect of winning hearts and mind, I would ask a question. WHAT US IS DOING IN AFGHANISTAN? Unless we don't know the objective, we can't assess the means to achieve it. Following are some of the reasons that I have heard from various people. What do you think about it?

1) US is there because of it does not want afghanistan again used as it was used in 9/11.

2) US is there because of unutilised fossil fuel reserves of central asia.

3) To keep a check on China/Pakistan/Iran.

4) To destablise Pakistan. This is what Musharraf (military) opologists say.

5) all of the above

So Sir. PAVO, what is your take as to the presence of US in Afghanistan.

#72 Posted by krbhatti,

2 & 3 are correct, but you won't believe it because you're as much of a murtid as the rest.

Zeemax,

You suppose on my behalf and tell me what I beleive or not beleive... Subhan Allah.....

#68 zeemax: i generally justify any opinion at the same time i present it. and all too often (whether it is hamidm or urstruly) the desi babu then ignores what i said rather than having the intellectual honesty to acknowledge.

so, which opinion did i not justify? (and dont write what you merely think is my opinion - cut and paste anything i wrote that you think is unjustified).

And in return, be prepared to respond in kind any of your opinions that I may present ask you to justify.

although to be fair to hamidm - he at least acknowledges that he has no problem with my view of islam - its just that he insists in claiming that you take away islam and a paindoo will start acting like a human. despite daily proofs to the contrary from indian paindoos on chowk.

Americans don't want to pay more than $1 a gallon. That's why they've now turned Muslims into the Antichrist after Communists were the Antichrist. Bush is on record saying why he doesn't sign the Kyoto protocol because the american lifestyle is not up for negotiation. The Muslim demographics scare the americans because the population growth plus conversions plus western women converting more than western men scares the hell out of them.

That's why america is in Afghanistan ... chutyas and murtids ... take note and contemplate instead of listening to FOX TV.

#75 Posted by tahmed32,

tahmed32, remember the movie about Salahuddin Ayubi? (... and not Saladin please) I think it was 'Kingdom of Heaven'. If you haven't seen it, do rent it and watch what the Christian leper King says. It was something like "When I'm standing before God in the Kingdom of Heaven, and I'm asked why I did what I did, how will I answer?"

Since you believe in individual responsibility towards God (I don't), perhaps I'ld like to know how're you going to answer.

#74 Posted by krbhatti,

Yes. All of them say that.

zeemax: i didnt ask for movie referrals. i asked for referrals to what i wrote that you consider unjustified.

So let me ask you now:

When you stand before God, and he asks you "Why were you ridiculing dead bodies on chowk?", what will you say? Because I am a hyena? Or will you give a long song and dance about how you could tell these people were evil because they wore uniforms? The latter wont sell with God, the former (the hyena excuse) He might buy.

(I have more - but first lets hear your answer to this one.(

Re: # 77

But Zeemax Mian,

Before you start another chutyapa, answer my question viz is plain and simple, and thats is how have you taken decision on my behalf whether I beleive in 2-3 or not, and in turn labelled me murtid.

Now second question is related to first one and is that how come right or wrong assessment of a regional problem can make anyone murtid or muslims. Is your islam hanging on the thread of how you assess the situation in Afghanistan?

#80 Posted by tahmed32,

I referred to the quote of a Christian, and a leper. I'm waiting for your answer and not counter-questions in your quest for obfuscation.

#81 Posted by krbhatti,

Afghanistan is vital to the overall interests of Muslims everywhere. Hope that answers your question.

Why should US leave? If financially war is supported by the Chinese and Indian surplus, they only have to print more greenback. Pakis are willing to do in the name of Allah on both sides. By being in Afghanistan Pakis are on toes and are not developing more WMDs. By being in the neigborhood you keep a watch on existing WMDs and when time comes grab them.

Paki fools are not aware that Ameriki policeman is sent by Chinese and Indians. Europeans are also in it by keeping token presence. Moreover who are us soldiers? many are illigal hispanic workinfg for getting greencard and citizenship. Americans have nothing to loose. They have won the war before entering in it. Paki darbai gandus also want this not ending because then they can subcontracts to bomb their own people. For these people no one is their people? They will sell there own mothers. People of very low consciousness level.

Bottom line whole world wants World's sole policeman to be in Afghanistan to save world from its eastern neighbor PakiTerroristan. You need to be punished for what you have been doing since 78, first in Punjab, then in Kashmir and finally Kargil. Hope jihadis and amerikis focus on the Punjabi elite and not innocent abduls.

Now most of the Pashtuns or Afghans have no experience of building institution. For last thirty years the big institutions they saw were private armies of warlords. Historically all the ealth they could generate was by looting and plundering. Whatever craftsman you see among them are probably progeny of slaves they brought from India.
Islam has destroyed cultures wherever it went, so Afghanistan was destroyed when Islam reached to its shore.

Afghans should not fall to Paki propaganda and let India help them develop. Let there be reservations for them in IITs and IIMs or better special coaching to get in. At least India should do that much in the memory of Ahmad Shah Masood.

I see parallels between the Afghan war and the war in Indochina which began in Vietnam but grew to engulf the entire region including Cambodia and Laos. In Indochina, the US became frustrated with the lack of progress against the Viet Cong and blamed the existence of Viet Cong sanctuaries in the neighboring countries. This was followed by the US invasion of both Laos and Cambodia, resulting in more than a million deaths in carpet bombings that followed. A similar situation is developing in Afghanistan, if you substitute the Viet Cong by the Taleban. The growing US frustration against the Taleban is creating a dangerous escalation with the US mounting more and more cross-border attacks into the tribal region of Pakistan.
Please see my blog for more on this: http://www.riazhaq.com/2008/03/afghan-war-is-it-dangerously-escalating.html
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

zeemax #82 there is a thin line between being clever and being stupid and hypocritical. dont try to be too clever with me. you accused me holding opinions i wont be able to answer to - and are unable to present any such opinion that i presented from the thousands of posts i have written!!

majumdar writes "should things get hot, USA wud not think much before decamping."

Where are you reading that, things are supposed to get "hot", the US is not in this area to cool things down that is not in their long term interest, heating things up is the motive behind the US in this area, that said "green zones" are relatively safe especially when on the job training is being provided to the indigeneous fodder with an apparently inexhaustible supply...

Re: # 83

Zeemax Mian,

I raised a simple question as to the objectives in my original post without taking any position. You came out to answer it out of your EGO, though it was not addressed to you. Further, you labelled me MURTID on the assumption that I don't subscribe to your position. Now I don't have any problem if you call me murtid because now when I have come to realize your peanut size brain, i don't have any issue.

BTW In my opinion, yes US presence in Afghanistan is due to all the factors that I mentioned. Remember, before 9/11 US was desperate to get a foothold in Afghanistan, and at the time of 9/11 US state department was entertaining taliban officials....

Zee writes "Bush is on record saying why he doesn't sign the Kyoto protocol because the american lifestyle is not up for negotiation.."

It is not the lifestyle of the common American that the US elite are worried about, it is their own lifestyle, power and profits. Everytime an American manufacturing concern shuts on the homefront to open up in China or India or some other "Third World" country, the lifestyle of the common American comes "up for negotiation", yet their elite do not worry as long as they make the profits in this transaction. Why war is sought by the US elite is for the same reason, it is not to maintain the standard of living of the common American which has been going down decade after decade as they lose wealth and get buried in debt, it is their profits and their hold on to power that these elite are worried about, and for that purpose they scapegoat the American people. The sooner the Pakistanis and other folk from the developing nations understand this the better, if I had a dollar for everytime someone from our parts of the world said, "The Americans do it for their own nation and people", I'd be a rich man, such an assessment is based on ignorance. The US elite is not the same as the US public, not in wealth, not in power and certainly not in their higher immorality...

krbhatti writes "BTW In my opinion, yes US presence in Afghanistan is due to all the factors that I mentioned. Remember, before 9/11 US was desperate to get a foothold in Afghanistan, and at the time of 9/11 US state department was entertaining taliban officials...."

One phone call to Islamabad would have taken care of all "desperations". There was no desperation on the part of the Americans to get a "foothold" in Afghanistan. Pakistan would have backed off the moment the US told them to, as they did after 9/11, a little supply to Masud's forces and the Taliban would have collapsed like a house of cards, the Americans had everything working for them, the Taliban had nothing- there was no desperation whatsoever, that is just popular mythology fit for Michael Moore's documentary...

#85 Posted by RiazHaq,

I agree. This is indeed where it's going.

#90

you are right masadi, but something has to be played for US audience also.

g'night

Nawaz Sharif has said today cross-border attacks are unacceptable, and US must cease and desist. Combine that with the Pakistani Taliban offer to negotiate with the elected Government, and there you go. It's clear where the Pakistani public's interest lies, and how it will be achieved.

In the meantime, there will be an economic crisis again when sanctions hit ... but we've seen plenty of those before.

US should leave Iraq but stay in Afghanistan as a policeman to take care of Pakistan which is a terrorist state. American common Joe will support that. Iraqi oil might have been self sufficient in financing Iraq presence but it is becoming not winnable war.

Just as Chinese and Indian, Saudis and gulf countries are also financing American stay in Afghanistan, probably more than Chinese and Indians. WMDs were never there in Iraq but they are present in Pakistan. These WMDs need to be grabbed first before thinking of leaving Afghanistan.

US should leave Iraq but stay in Afghanistan as a policeman to take care of Pakistan which is a terrorist state. American common Joe will support that. Iraqi oil might have been self sufficient in financing Iraq presence but it is becoming not winnable war.

Just as Chinese and Indian, Saudis and gulf countries are also financing American stay in Afghanistan, probably more than Chinese and Indians. WMDs were never there in Iraq but they are present in Pakistan. These WMDs need to be grabbed first before thinking of leaving Afghanistan.

#86 Posted by tahmed32,

You supported the bombing of Lebanese civilians by Israel.

#97 zeemax: i told you to cut and paste what i actually wrote. not what you claim is my opinon. so dont keep wasting your time and my time trying to be clever. try being honest instead.

Zeemax,
Pakistan was prepared for economic sanctions then becuase it had a vibrant unregulated domestic economy. The policies of the past 8 years have eliminated the domestic sector and diverted it to consumerism. Now they are mere traders. China has replaced Pakistan in much of small industry. Stock market now has foreign players. By all measures its no more a small sustainable economy but rather a bubble. With such a turnaround, would Pakistan sustain economic sanctions?

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#98 Posted by tahmed32,

Instead of asking me to google, why don't you cross your heart, in your 'Individual Responsibility Towards (your) God' and declare you did not?

I'll accept that if you do, even though it will be a lie, but nevertheless.

Re: # 100

As I told you buddy, now I don't have any problem though initialy I was pissed. Reason, I have realised the size of your brain is not more than a peanut.

You are in the same league of moulvis of my village, who brand everyone as kafirs and murtids who differs with them. Keep going........

#99 Posted by ijaz_gul,

... would Pakistan sustain economic sanctions?

Yes. a little belt tightening, that's all. Some foreign exchange controls, petrol taxed to the limit and buses (good ones btw ... aircon and all) back in fashion, plus ban on import of services. Use your own. No problem.

zeemax #101 "Instead of asking me to google,"

where did i tell you to google? are you really stupid or just have too much time on your hands that you keep coming back with one excuse or another last few hours now!!

zeemax: last post on this subject on this board. even i dont have unlimited time for your games after several hours.

just remember - next time you feel the urge to accuse me of holding evil opinions, you better cut and paste what i wrote to back your accusations.

zeemax: last post on this subject on this board. even i dont have unlimited time for your games after several hours.

just remember - next time you feel the urge to accuse me of holding evil opinions, you better cut and paste what i wrote to back your accusations.