Zardari Rev 2

Re: # 45
Romair,

I like that twist to teh reality, having been sent back ball and chain in a chartered flight, you want others to follow you.

It all goes well beyond 1946. Nawab Mushtaq Husain Viqar al-Mulk (March 24, 1841-January 27, 1917), also known as Mushtaq Hussain, was a Muslim politician and one of the founders of All India Muslim League. He is also known for his involvement in the Aligarh Movement. It was Nawab Viqar-al-Mulk who literally drafted Jinnah into All India Muslim League.
The founding meeting of the League was held on 30 December 1906 at the occasion of the annual All India Muhammadan Educational Conference in Shahbagh, Dhaka that was hosted by Nawab Salimullah Khan. The meeting was attended by three thousand delegates and presided over by Nawab Viqar-ul-Mulk. The resolution was moved by Nawab Salimullah which was seconded by Hakim Ajmal Khan. Nawab Viqar-ul-Milk declared:

“The Musalmans (Muslims) are only a fifth in number as compared with the total population of the country, and it is manifest that if at any remote period the British government ceases to exist in India, then the rule of India would pass into the hands of that community which is nearly four times as large as ourselves... our life, our property, our honour, and our faith will all be in great danger, when even now that a powerful British administration is protecting its subjects, we the Musalmans have to face most serious difficulties in safe-guarding our interests from the grasping hands of our neighbors.”

Jinnah rose to prominence in the Indian National Congress expounding ideas of Hindu-Muslim unity and helping shape the 1916 Lucknow Pact with the Muslim League; he also became a key leader in the All India Home Rule League. Later Jinnah quit the Congress and took charge of the Muslim League. He proposed a fourteen-point constitutional reform plan to safeguard the political rights of Muslims in a self-governing India. His proposals failed amid the League's disunity, driving a disillusioned Jinnah to live in London for many years.
Prominent Muslim leaders made efforts to convince Jinnah to return to India and take charge of a now-reunited Muslim League. In 1934 Jinnah returned and began to re-organize the party.
(Acknowledgements: Wikipedia.org)

Re: # 45

romair,

...there you go again ! ....stop putting your hoof in your mouth ......"until a few months ago, no one even knew who he was" ..... what if i told you i have been to his house and had dinner with him ?

#45 by bulleya

i don't swing with pendulums......

Sure. We still remember how you were singing paeans for Musharraf in the aftermath of the coup and even 9/11; you were itching to join the invasion of Afghanistan.

You don't swing WITH the pendulums. You ARE the pendulum.

hamidm mian #: ...i have been saying, for ages, on this site that imran khan, aitezaz or yusuf gilani would make good pm's.....i was the only person who even mentioned gilani's name two years ago......and until a few months ago, no one even knew who he was.......

lo and behold, he is the pm.....with an overwhelming historical majority.......i have been proven correct.....

as correct as i was proven, when i told you, your friend bush would destroy the republican party and that the american people would eventually turn against him......i said that at a time when nearly 70% of americans held your points of view.......

i was proven correct there, as well......

i don't swing with pendulums......nor do i wait for pendulums to swing.......a phrase coined by you, to explain the demise of bush......

you need to stop commenting from abroad......if you are really interested in pakistan, come back and join the party, like many of us have.....otherwise, your comments - correct or incorrect - will always be opportunistic.......

rf786#: "you too suffer from the same malaise..."I feel"..."

...i feel is the basic expression of democracy....it is the combinations of i feels that result in someone being elected to a position....

hence i feel is exactly the opposite of what you are painitng it to be......it is the basic right of every human being to say i feel this or that should happen.....

i feel so and so should be in such and such position......what is wrong with saying that......people vote on that basis......

Re: # 37

romair,

shut up ! ........ who cares what you think .......before you open your big mouth wipe the egg fom your face from last time ......."i think this, i think that !" ....... fool!

Re: # 36

Zee

Nice speech, but sounds desperate.

Instead of giving bhashan, why not accept the fact that a true democracy demands diversity of opinion, tolerance and acceptance of the right to express. Like they say, abhee juma juma 8 din huway naheen and u r already giving sermons....tsk tsk....

Re: # 37

bulleya

{..there are only three people, whom i feel deserve to be pm - imran khan, aitezaz ahsan and gilani (and one could add javed hashmi to this list also)..}

Bulleya jee, what does deserve mean in a democratic setup where leaders are chosen by the majority vote? I am afraid, like Musharraf and many other feudalistic mindsets, you too suffer from the same malaise..."I feel", "I shall decide who is desrving and who is not..."

With love and respect

Arif

Re: # 33; Zeemax
"Mind your language, you product of the milkman!"

I would have accepted that but I am reliably told it was "giyarween shareef's naagha"; so the milkman didn't turn up.

Sorry to disappoint Zee bhai.

#37 Posted by bulleya on March 24, 2008 12:18:06 pm


i have a strange feeling this time it will be different


different from the last time when you told us you were a supporter of musharraf before it was cool?

aslam dude...check out capt clueless' interacts on this thread

http://www.chowk.com/interacts/5216/2/0/a

capt clueless was doing a kristen on mushy..

Re: # 37
Bulleya
Let us hope your optimism is well founded, it’s too early to arrive at any conclusions.
I personally feel there are good people at the junior level in all the parties but, unfortunately they haven’t been allowed to come through, one reason is that there is no internal democracy in the parties, the other is that democracy hasn’t been allowed to run its course in Pakistan by the army. If Pakistan can achieve Turkish style democracy in a decade that would be something maybe EU should take note and help.

aslam644#: .....i have a strange feeling this time it will be different......there is an independent civil society, an independent judiciary, an independent media.....and most of all, a public that has carried out a historic vote.....23 ministers have been voted out.......and i believe there a huge number of mnas (66%??) are new....

....and gilani is a good man......very balanced and a someone with a lot of credibility......there are only three people, whom i feel deserve to be pm - imran khan, aitezaz ahsan and gilani (and one could add javed hashmi to this list also)........

pakistan is on the right track........first time i am saying that since i have been on chowk....up til now, it was a choice of the lesser of two evils - musharraf vs. nawaz sharif vs others......now it is different.....

#35 Posted by aslam644,

You people, will keep giving your 'budd-duaas' that this coalition doesn't last.

You people, wish Pakistan not to progress.

You people, wish Pakistan to become part of bharat, or a slave of amreeka.

You people, will never appreciate that the people of Pakistan, poor, uneducated, sheep, unwashed - voted-in this Government (with no small contribution by the suicide bombers who shoved the stick up the dictators to accede.

You people, will never appreciate that even before taking oath tomorrow and immediately upon conclusion of vote today with a 77% majority, the new Prime Minister ordered the release of the Superior Judiciary from detention. Iftikhar Chaudahary appeared on his balcony today. The barbed wire was removed.

You people, will never appreciate all of the above, that Pakistan is a 'Country'.

Back to democrazy Pakistani style

All the opportunist politicians have gathered under the leadership of granddaddy of all the thieves zardari , without any consideration for principles or ideology they have jumped on the gravy train, personally I can’t see it lasting long this grand coalition, because zardari will demand the lion’s share of anything and everything.

But bulleya, main thing is not who carried out the implementation. There're many people who can 'implement'. Pakistan is not short on those. Lashari is an 'implementer', not a 'visionary'. Sharifs are visionaries.

Then, there's this thing of finances. I don't think you know (or anyone else on this stupid board) that Lahore was rebuilt, including it's new airport, without a single penny of Federal money?

#30 Posted by akcheema,

make sure these bastards do what they are there for!

Mind your language, you product of the milkman!

#31 Posted by bulleya,

Kamran Lashari was the head of Horticulture ... parks etc. He is a brilliant administrator - very perceptive and motivated - and was responsible for parks and greenery, plus his biggest achievement, the excellent Gawal Mandi Food Street.

But he had nothing to do with any of the hard infrastructure in Lahore. Nawaz Sharif did, personally.

zeemax #: "Barkhurdar, Lahore ko kya aussies ney aa kar nya banaya tha?"

from what i have heard, lahore was fixed by kamran lashari, who is now the head of cda in islamabad (?)....and islamabad is starting to look better, already.......

Re: # 28 Zee bhai

I have seen the Nya Lahore, certainly better than before but in the greater scheme of things, LONG OVERDUE. That is what governments are supposed to do aren't they?

"Ik shehr nu saaf ker kay saade agleyan pichhleyan te ki ihsaan keeta ve?" What about the rest of the country and infra-structure?

This is not a dig. Unfortunately our mindset has always been to settle for second best.

Zee bhai, make sure these bastards do what they are there for! The system of accountability has to be right up there.

I only hope my fears are baseless.

Jayp rf786
Pakistani politicians,media and civil society is still learning the craft of intellectual masterbation like the majority of chowkees.Once they master this craft they will take the next step of logical thinking and analysis.Long way to go.

#11 Posted by akcheema

Zee Bhai...What has ANY one of them done for the country?

Barkhurdar, Lahore ko kya aussies ney aa kar nya banaya tha?

Jayp bhai,

Unfortunately, politicians all over the world are the same low life breed, ambitious tothe extent of being greedy with no scruples.

Only way to hold them accountable is via elections, democratic process. As for the people, well they will have to make civil society strong enough for their voice to be heard and take active part in party politics to forward their issues.

The ducated pakistnis have analysed the breed of gillani. How about any policy directions.

For nawaz, it is only a question of kicking out mushy. He hopes to do it by reinstating the CJ, who will do it for him.

For zardari, it is a question of recovering the drain on his money in the last ten years, to refill the cofers in swiss bank, so that he is ready to be kicked out in another five years time.

There is no talk what so ver in teh pak papers about hwat the govt should do in the next 100 days.

how about some electricity for karachi.

how about addressing the fuel crisis.

...erm, maybe i was a bit carried away there in my last post!
I HOPE he can be the best PM ever by trying to uphold the ethical and moral standards of his illustrious forebears....

yusuf raza gilani is a sayyid-zada and descendent of ghawth azam and a gaddinasheen?! subhan Allah! He has my support already...in fact i will carry his shoes as a mark of honour to his illustrious ancestors!

:-)

He will be the best PM ever!
Allahu Akbar!


p.s. rf786 is correct: the panjabi and sindhi pirs ALL supported qaid e azam and the pakistan movement along with the JUP and all the sunni-barelvi ulama. chief amongst them was hazrat pir sayyid jama'at ali shah sahib rahmatullah alayhi...in fact without the votes of the murids of these pirs pakistan wouldn't have been formed cos the Muslim League needed these votes...

it was the deobandis/whabis like JUI, Maududi etc. who opposed pakistan's creation and who mocked the qaid as 'kafir e azam'.

in fact the deobandi mullahs were so far up congresses backside they even invited gandhi to their mosque to do a speech on the minbar! la hawla wa la quwwat...

and now people like fazloo and his fuzla-father act like they were the thaykadaars of pakistan!

Re: # 21

Lahore Resolution of 1940 never mentioned Pakistan by name, point being concept of Pakistan took a turning point when Muslim League emerged victorious in the 1945-46 elections commanding complete control in the center and majority in the provincial legislature. Thus the emphasis on post 1946, if we were to go back further in time then Maulana Azad was also member of the Muslim League and changed sides in 1920.

You have mentioned two names, both ended being part of Pakistan now whether that was by choice or compulsion is irrelevant and more importantly there were far many more Pir/feudals (Mamdot, Nishter, Daulatana, Pagara, Bugti, Khan Abdul Qayyum, Maulana Sattar Niazi) who supported the cause of Pakistan.

ahmedmadani #: "But who's father what did is over emphasized. PM minister is not farm to produce through bred horses."

..yes i agree....this is true......though, in pakistani politics, whom one father is has a huge impact on his/her politics....

rf786 #:"many and can u name just a few who opposed formation of Pakistan post 1946..."

the pakistan resolution, to the best of my knowledge, is dated pre-46, not post 46........i am not sure why you have picked post 46.....by 46, jinnah and his muslim league had defeated the leaders who opposed pakistan....

punjab and nwfp were brought into pakistan, kicking and screaming, by jinnah.....at least their leadership was.....

so to answer your question.....take leader of punjab and nwfp, who had a feudal/pir background, and you will find then in opposition to pakistan....to be particular, take any unionist in punjab.....and to be even more particular, khizar tiwana.....

by post-46, all had lost.....

Re: # 13 Mr. Romair i respect you for you give good analysis.
But who's father what did is over emphasized. PM minister is not farm to produce through bred horses.

Re: # 18

Dear Maj

Bulleya had incorrectly paint brushed all Pir/Feudals opposed to Pakistan. Granted, there were feudals (Unionists) and religious parties (JI, JUI) opposed to Pakistan, but (a) they were not Pir's and (b) there were also counter forces that supported creation of Pakistan (JUP, Bugtis, Nishtars etc) who were the followers of Sufi Islam.

By the way, I am still waiting for bulleya to quote few Pir/feudals that opposed Pakistan.

Arifbhai,

Pre-1946 most of the Punjabi notables the Unionists opposed Pakistan. Only after they saw that Pakistan was inevitable or that INC rule cud mean end of fedualism did they switch over. YLH can expand on this.

Regards

Re: # 15

JUP or the "Pir" party of Muslims supported Jinnah's Pakistan and were active participants in contrast to JI and JUI the two opposing clerical parties.

Re: # 15

So does the JUI (Hind), but they were not the Pir/Feudals as suggested by bulleya.

Re: # 14
The current champions of the Islamic cause, i.e., Jamaat-e-Islami's founding father Syed Abu'al Aala Maududi is one name that springs to mind.

Re: # 13

bulleya

{and many from punjab who actually opposed the creation of pakistan}

Many? how many and can u name just a few who opposed formation of Pakistan post 1946. Thanks

one more thing about gilani........unlike many feudals/pirs whose ancestors were given lands, because they sided with the british........and many from punjab who actually opposed the creation of pakistan........gilani's father was the youngest signatory of the pakistan resolution as a representative from multan (if i am not incorrect), and his family was fully behind the pakistan movement........

Re: # 11

akcheema sahib,

If we measure contribution by infrastructure development, then the charge is not true. Take a stroll down memory land, the Sharif's particularly the younger one (Shahbaz) transformed Lahore, last five years saw another phase of rapid development in Punjab and Karachi.

Point being, without being generous we can be objective and give credit where it belongs, and the question what has the gentleman done for Multan or Southern Punjab for that matter is a relevant question. Now that he has assumed the PM mantle, it becomes even more problematic cause his performance will be measured on a national basis.

Re: # 9; Zee Bhai
"What has he done for Multan in particular and South Punjab in general during the no less than 5 tenures he has had as an MNA, one as Speaker NA?"

What has ANY one of them done for the country?

zeemax #: .....gilani is about the best that the feudal-pir system has to offer......he is a dignified man.....trust me...i have only been mentioning three people (imran khan, aitezaz ahsan and gilani), because or of the people i have had some direct or indirect access to, (through friends and family etc.) i have found these three to be the best......

as for sherry rehman......that was accidental.....

regarding his piri/fiqiri.....he is the gaddi nashin of a big pir gharana......he is related to pir pagaro and to a long list of major feudal/pir.....i believe his son is about to marry pir pagaro's granddaughter.....however, he gave up the gaddi a long time ago.....he passed it onto a relative....that itself takes some courage......he moved to lahore, and lived a normal life, raising his children as professionals.........

...as for jail time......anyone who understands pakistani politics will know that spending time in jail is the ultimate qualificaiton for leadership in pakistani politics......pakistani politics has still not matured beyond the days of the british.......this is, probably, why he got the nod over fahim.......

he was subjected to all kinds of humiliations by musharraf over five years.....he is one of the only politicians, who refused to move to the hospital during jail time......he was offered chairman senate etc. by musharraf, to switch parties.....he refused.....yet you will never see any bitterness in him........

him and javed hashmi are the two ultimate anti-establishment figures, at the moment......nawaz sharif ran away to saudi arabia, benazir was in dubai, zardari was in a hospital.....while these two were in jail without any credible case....naveed qamar of ppp is another who was in jail for two years......and i think ppp will give him the second most important post of finance minister, due to his jail time......

jail time is a ph.d. in pakistani politics, and is what makes leaders popular amongst voters......they respect defiance......moreso than even good governance.....at least that is what i have seen.....

for those who like liberalism, he is quite a liberal guy, who has broken away from traditional piri/faqiri....and a very balanced, patient man, who knows his limitations........and is very respected across the political spectrum.......

good choice; at least as far as i m concerned.......and this is coming from someone who is totally against piri/feudal system of pakistan.......

as for doing something for multan.....i don't know what he has or has not done for multan......but in that sense, no one has done much for any place in pakistan....pakistani politics is still stuck in the institution building stage.....doing something is stage 2.....and is quite easy......he can hire plenty of people like you and me to do things.......

#7 Posted by bulleya,

I have nothing against this gaddi-nasheen and alam-bardar of his illustrious sajjada-nasheen ancestors, except his disgusting subway-molesting attempt at brushing up on sherry rehman's boobs in a public rally, but do tell me the following:

What has he done for Multan in particular and South Punjab in general during the no less than 5 tenures he has had as an MNA, one as Speaker NA? Except spending time in A-Class jail?

#5 Posted by ijaz_gul,

Without central Punjab, anyone who wants to have the last laugh will have the last whimper.

But I do agree zardari has tried to pull a fast one by getting MQM into the coalition, whom PML-N abhors.

..i have been saying, for the past two years that three good choices for the position of PM would be imran khan, aitezaz ashan or yusuf raza gilani.......

yusuf raza - a name hitherto unmentioned on this site, by anyone other than me - ends up becoming the pm......

he is good choice......and will do well......he was jailed by musharraf for 4 1/2 years, without being convicted.....

anyways, when you spread the news about him being appointed as pm, do mention that you heard it first, two years ago, on radio b-u-l-l-e-y-a.....

Dear writer,

Mr Zardari has once again demonstrated his "deal making skills", but running the government, a political party, and keeping the army happy has yet to be tested. One can only wish him the best and hope things move in the right direction, having said running a political coalition and government will always be a difficult balancing act.

Will NS be his last laugh?

further, all his strokes are master strokes. Its just too good. Well NS be his last laugh?

Re: # 2 Mr. Z should be grateful to AH.
He is generous to give benefit of doubt to Z and AH put pressure on General for NRO and saved mr Z. and Mrs B.
But chances are good that good deeds will be rewarded by punishment and disfranchising urban Sindhis. Hope as sign of peace offer CM ship to MQM and make sindh as sing of brotherhood and compromise.

He has certainly played his cards well. MQM was a move that took air out of Amin Fahim and Gilani out of Paghara. He has confirmed his anti establishment credentials.

Author,

Zardari’s political shrewdness, if not statesmanship, has succeeded in making the civil society and the media revive the earlier impressions about Zardari that his life begins and ends with money and horses, etc.

Shouldn't the highlighted word be 'revise'?