The Irreverent Hero Islam Forgot

#264 anil sahib: It is true that the concept of God, as of everything else, is within our minds. But "supremacy" is not a relevant word for this. Kant solved this problem centuries ago when he said quite the same thing (i.e. that everything we perceive of conceive is an image in our minds), but that merely means we can never understand what he called the "ultimate reality". Which ties in with the concept of a Supreme Being tha our brains can no more comprehend than a dog can comprehend calculus (actually I had trouble with it too, but that is another story..)

akcheema #224/5/6: "YOUR concept of God is called "Deism";"
it has nothing to do with ritualistic religion of any kind; "

You are merely playing with words and labels here. If you want to get serious, then address the substance of what I have written.

"please get the concepts clear in your head first."

The fact that you dont agree with me does not mean that I am ignorant or confused.

Basically what you are saying in these three posts is that I have no right to have a view on the Quran that is different from yours. That I have no business conceiving of God as being something more than the maulvi concept of God (i.e. of a glorified thanedar) and still calling myself a muslim.

I am afraid this is as far as we can carry this discussion. Thanks.

Re: # 253

MASADI SAAB,

I am new here. Can you guide me please so I know what to do.
Regards

Peon of The West

#231 akcheema: "I think you are right; I give up!"

I told you I would read your posts and get back. Without giving me that chance, you jumped to join Hamidm in implying that I am not being reasonable.

If you wish to seriously discuss something, then you would need to give me the consideration I give you.

I will in any case now look at your posts now and see what you have to say and respond.

akcheema, help me explain this to my dear friend CA :)

There are people, lots of people, who actually believe in, hold on to, the basics of Islam, pillars and all. These people are as intelligent as any of us, if not more.

They just see things very differently.

What do the rest of us do?

Do we only fight with or ridicule each other? Or do we try to understand each other as much as possible, so we can minimize the need to fight?

And it's not fear, just a belief that unless absolutely necessary, fighting is just too wasteful.

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Consider Anil ji's statement:

"Supremacy of mind not only over matter, but also over concept of God..."

Isn't it better to (1) understand that this statement is reaching too close to the limit of what tahmedji (or any Muslim) will accept or not accept..and (2) gently inform them of the same, in case, they missed it.

Do you think either anil ji (or any Hindu) or tahmedji (or any Muslim) will change their minds even a bit by this 'discussion' or such discussions? Most other discussions are far worse - wherein people simply abuse each other.

What can we get from those kinds of things?

ek lavya recited and believes in the 5 pillars of islam as the truth..ain't that right brother kaal? why the hedge bro?

Re: # 269; Eklavya bhai
"No fence sitting. I am just not blessed with faith."

You could have fooled me mate! Those who are "not blessed" tend to have an "even-handed" approach; you seem to be leaning more than the tower of Pisa!

Cheers

Cheema ji, agreed, the apparently simple, when implemented, can often have most 'unexpected' (unexpected by most people) results.

But there always seem to be some folks who know what results would actually follow, in most cases, and these are the people whose understanding really matters.

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No fence sitting. I am just not blessed with faith.

Re: # 259; Tahir bhai
"That 'P' thing is actually Pakistan-envy which makes many Islam-bashers on this site blush".

You obviously had not a clue what I was talking about.
Read a few chapters on Freudian psychology and you'd know.
I think we best drop it now.
Sydney Opera House; ah.. seen it from the outside only but must go watch something soon; note in diary....

Cheers

Re: # 260; Zeemax bhai

I take it you have seen my responses to your post No: 228.

"aur kissi sheyr ki tashreeh karvani hai to bataa dijye ga".

Like I said, if the responses are not adequate, its because I am busy with some projects and currently travelling a lot; will have more time in a month or so.
Cheers

Re: # 254; Eklavya Bhai
[""this simple concept makes religion a liberating force rather than an oppressive one."
Absolutely! I have repeatedly emphasized that point, since it is so different from what many outsiders seem to expect"]

Eklavya, just remember everything starts as simple; with the passage of time, inevitably, it becomes more and more complex. Give it some thought for me!

I have invited you to the fold of Islam many times! Make a decision as to which side your bread is buttered; this "fence-sitting" doesn't become you.



Cheers

"Supremacy of mind not only over matter, but also over concept of God...."

Most respectfully, anil ji, Sir, you are treading too close to dangerous grounds. Won't intrude more than saying just that :)

Re: # 263

Tahmed sahib:

Supremacy of mind not only over matter, but also over concept of God, itself is a state-of-mind, is my point. Sorry "over" got omitted.

You read Quran, and find it to make sense. Hamidm sahib reads, then RSS walas read, and when a suicide bomber / OBL reads he comes to the same conclusions. To all what they read, make perfectly good sense. This is precisely my point.

What allows various "minds" to read and make perfectly good sense(s), which are so different? The conclusion cannot escape us that it is "to each his / her own". Why? It is all about "mind".

Stephen Hawkins, famous quotation - "What is in God's Mind?" - puts "mind" supreme, albeit God's Mind, mind no doubt.

Difference between you and Hamidm sahib is that two of you talk at different wavelength. You talk spiritual; he talks existential / physical. For example, he questions winged angel, but not your message, as I see it.

Nothing that I have read from Hamidm sahib, in all these years, will point that he understands or has any patience to understand spiritual needs that can

anil sahib #256 Like everything else, religion too must indeed make sense in one's mind for it to be acceptable.

When I read the Quran, it makes perfectly good sense to me (notably, that the true nature of God is unknowable to man; that God has his reasons for "bad things" happening to good people that man cannot understand - and the Quran provides an interesting story on this too). And indeed hinduism and Taoism have something similar in their core message that also rings true to one's mind (e.g. The "Tao that can be named is not the true Tao").

HOWEVER: When I listen to the mullah concept of Islam, that makes no sense at all. Like I said, the mullah concept of God is that of a glorified thanedar whom you flatter (by singing his praises) and who in turn bestows favors.

In addition, when I read Hamidm's objections to Islam - i.e. accepting Islam means becoming a criminal - they makes no sense at all either.

#261 hamidm: "you are well on the way to being declared a kafir "

(yawn) That is not an argument either.

tahmed,

..... you better be careful - you are well on the way to being declared a kafir if you keep up with this selective interpretation of the koran and sunnah ...... that is worse than being called a doorknob ....