Color-Blind Love

Dear brothers in faith,

Don't let CHOWK's new look fool you into thinking that some 'new management' has taken over and that things will suddenly improve. If they do at all, let it be known that I have repeatedly requested CHOWK editors to MODERATE and control the RAW-agents who have nothing better to do than analyse Pakistani news and then stoop to abusing Islam and the Prophets by pretending to be interacters!

There is deathly silence at the editor's desk. Surprised? Not only this, they are guilty of killing quite a few of my articles over the years! I beleive, they still have not received the 'security clearance' to publish them.

One door closes but many others will open. CHOWK is not the final frontier; that it has degenerated into a hate-site should not come as a surprise to those who have turned it into one.

One evening's worth of search reveals that these anti-Islam half-humans will not reform. They are nicely linked; most 'kufr' is anyway. That goodnes stands squabbling amongst itself is a sad situation and I expect that born-Muslim interacters here will remember who they are, where they come from, and where they might be headed if they join hands with 'highly-educated satans'.

Indeed, the Qur'an calls all such persons who lapse into utter unbelief 'monkeys' and 'pigs'. Why? Because the outward behaviour and moral decadence begins to resemble that of such animals.

I must thank those who stood up for me, and those who even thought of doing the same but were afraid of being ridiculed or abused.

There are three kinds of men in this world; fighters, collaborators, and traitors.

See where you fit!

Regards.

Re: # 351 Good Morning Mr. Kulharee.Thanks for telling me of coming event.It will be god sent opportunity listen to Pt.Jasraj. After untimely departure of Amirkhan, Bade Gulam aliKhan and now by old age joshi is resting, major laod is carried by Pt. Jasraj as guiding light and teacher.At this time like elder man with wisdom in music he is leading light. He is extremely talented and so much composition. It is heartening to know people like yourself ,care and go for concerts to support great tradition with reverence. I thank people like you as you support music by action. Soon it will be hard to find many listeners. Our music is sublime and subtle and it takes time to even to start realiazing the depth as it is intelluctual.There is major science behind and only technical way one can understand but it can not be good music,when technician and artist of great talent come together a great music starts. At highest level its spritual distillation a amalgation of rivers of emotion, Imagination ( Khayal is very appropriate world not only for Khayal singing but any great raga presentation) and construction.Pundit Jasraj is on throshould of that stage.
Again thanks for supporting artists by action.
Now this Saint John theatere is England or USA . I am confused are you in usa or England.
I am greateful to you and somepeople have been nasty but you kept composed yourself.
Now evolution business it strikes to my mind some areas produce evolve great masters. A small area has given Pt. Joshi, Kumar Gandharva , mrs Gangubai Hangal,Basav Rajguru ,Malikkarjun Mansoor and teacternumber 2 and 3 Mahadev Kund golkar. May be that all earth ,air water id different. ( Mr.Venketesh Kumar a younger with good music is from same area? orMrs laxmiShanker ?)
Pt Jasraj is equally great teacher and he spends hours every day teaching students. Under his guidence great artist is S. Abhykor ( something like that) very sweet voice with great artistic excellence.
Sorry if I wrote in earlier responses you can forgive me.
I am happy some people even after departure from home land enjoy culture it is tough as to enjoy culture one needs tobe cultured.
Good day every body.

Madani Sahib, Pundit Jasraj will be at all-nite concert (may 11)at St. John the Divine. I haven’t missed an all-nit for over 10 years. This year’s line up is phenomenal. I hope to see you there.

Thanks. Person who does not want to be named sent the bandish.
MaruBihag ,Drut Trital Composer Pt.Jasraj

Man Bhavan Aayori Sajaniya
Zanak Rahi Mori Payalia(N)
Preet Piyaki jagi Jiyare
Zanak Rahi mori Payaliya

Probably Pt Jasraj may have done most composition in modern times than any other and not being old there will lot more composition in future.

Now back to our kala gora stuff.
Thanks whole heartedly. ( This olace lot tolearn than just abuseand relieve tensions)

peon sahib: i used to go to bangladesh sahib. i loved the peoples there sahib (like banglabandhu, God rest his secessionis soul, used to say "i loves my pipple, my pipples loves me"). so dont wish them ill, sahib.

dullabhatti (344)

Have you come across grown gora Sikhs yet where you live? I remember the first time my father saw one of those papajis, he was shocked! OdheyaaN Punjabi da pata naeeN. I think you should forget about the goray kids, and focus on the afreekis and the cheenis. Oh, and while you're at it, on the aliens like the vulcans, and klingons and bajorans. :D

Re: # 342

tahmeedi saab, have you got rid of all those Baangladaishis saab?

Re: # 341
Hello dear Kulharee
No not at all, I used those examples only to exemplify the failures of some of the people most successful in many other arenas of life other than the battlefield of their very own households.
I certainly do not mean to voice against the inter-faith or inter-racial marriages, as a matter of fact Islam does encourage inter-cultural, inter-ethnic and inter-racial marriages, but what I am attempting to focus on is immature decisions by people who cant live together in a marriage that they entered due to some worldly attraction or appeal and later come to find that they were not a good match.
As a father I have always encouraged my children to marry by their choice as I don't believe in imposing my proposal for anyone's marriage, I am very much against "arranged" marriages too and what I use as a term instead is "assisted" marriage, even with my own son's and daughter I am very open to hear from them if they have made a choice and if I can assist them and be a part to further with their choice of marriage. Alhamdulillah two of my children are married and I fully permitted them to select and approve their life-mates.
However I admonish them at the onset that they should give their selection a serious thought as the most disliked one thing by Allah SWT among which that HE has lawfully allowed is divorce, so they should be prepared to negotiate and resolve among themselves when they have differences and should not allow spousal differences to become a nuclear war. Alhamdulillah I have a daughter in-law and a son in-law who both have same love for me that my children.
I would not even want to discuss Tahira & Bukhari, its not worth the time and effort.
Hope my explanation clarifies my position on this matter.
Regards

Re: # 343
Hi ana
The examples I use are strictly of failures while I personally am not aware of success stories, oh well I should not say that because yes I do know of real successful that are not stories, at least 3 of them, I know of a Pakistani physician a professor of medicine who has a very good relationship with his Danish wife, I know of another Pakistani who married a German lady and they are like two people and one soul and a third one also a Pakistani Geologist who is married to a Hawaiian lady and again they both were meant for each other as I see it.
All three of these gentlemen that I know personally not only married these ladies because of the charm or appeal but they also contributed positively towards showing the right path to the ladies while the ladies who I would say really loved their life partners learned and understood from them and went to the extent of adopting their faith in real live terms.
Similarly one of my cousin's son who is not anywhere quite as steadfast as the above three gentlemen but God paired him with an American lady of great morals, she lives like she was brought up in the sub-continent when it comes to submission to her silly husband while she is a very highly educated professional herself, so this is love for real.
Like you said in your comments that what attracts you towards marrying a lady is it her looks, her wealth, her fame the green-card or some other worldly attraction you have.
Not implying to be a mullah but I was listening once to a lecture where the scholar mentioned that when you migrate you receive as a result what intention you held within, he resembled migration from one place to another with, migration from one state to another, i.e. going from the state of being single to a married state would also be considered migration, and what you internally wish, is what you receive. This is similar to "one's deeds are dependent on their intentions", if one's intentions are clean, the outcome will also be favorable.
You are right that there are numerous examples of failures of marriages within people of our very own culture & religion.
Sometimes I am amazed when watching Pakistani dramas of today as to how easily divorce & separation is considered.
The challenges in an interfaith and/or inter-racial marriage a lot more than the glamor of being married and it takes a great deal of steadfastness on part of both spouses to make it work.
The reason I noted those failed marriages is not to be negative about interfaith or inter-racial marriages but to use those examples of some of the most successful individuals who failed to negotiate their very own household's integrity.

piyare Qutabudin Kulharee jiyo, you have good kids and a very nice woman as your wife..say my hello to pahbi ji. sometimes I think you stole someone's kids and wife...par chalo..I am on your side in this crime...I am happy for you.

sometimes I think about adopting a gora and a kala kid and rbing them up as sikhs with good punjabi speaking skills, just for a social experiment.:-)

Kulharee,

Race and/or faith can be a factor in divorce, but the examples that Zuber gives do not equal failure in such relationships. You give good examples of marriages that did work in spite of the challenges that must have existed in those as well. And in pointing out marriages that do not work within our own faith, or people, there is an important ingredient missing: that word is part of your title.

This dialogue really is not about those people who marry for green cards, or celebrities who are egotistical idiots, or people who think they've done something special because oh my gawd, gori nuN phansaleya, in my humble opinion. This is about the possibilities of different cultures and different faiths uniting in love and marriage, and the challenges that come with that, and compromises.

Kulharee, beginning your article with Obama's being of mixed ethnicity is interesting because his parents' marriage ended up not working, and Obama has had to find a fine balance in being multiracial. Whether he has found it is something that certain people from both "races" are questioning.

Anyway, we can go on arguing about what the white man has done to us, what we have done to each other, those of us who have seen these marriages work, or come from unions of different faiths and cultures (even poor vs. rich within an ethnicity are different "cultures") can appreciate more than a few points in this article, its detractors aside.

kulharee sahib #334: Alls well that ends well.
on #341 i agree - like i mentioned earlier on this board, some of the most successful marriages i have seen (and this is across 4 generations now!) have been between paksitanis and foreigners.

and i just learnt the other day of this fellow who used to be in school in pakistan with me who was married to a pakistani, spent his whole life in pakistan, and now the wife finally decided she had had enough of him and has taken off with his best friend. (no longer best friend, i guess). So all this talk of cultural problems is bs.

Izuber, do you think race or faith have to do anything with divorce? You are talking about Imran Khan, his marriage would have ended in a divorce even if he had married his own grandmother. The guy is an idiot. Arent there notable Pakistanis such as Faiz Ahmad Faiz, and Feroz Khan Noon, and many more successful interracial marriages, the marriages that will put any marriage to shame. Then there are people like Mustafa Khar who married at least 6 women (slept with god know how many other), divorced each, and all his own race. You must also have heard of Tahira Sayed and how he divorced his wife Naeem Bokhari? And they were both Sayed, directly descended from Hazrat Mohammad Salawasalm Elehe Salam? Do you think that Pakistanis should stick to their own kind, because it is their race(s) that have trouble getting along with non-muslim outsiders. What do you think?

The most important and significant example of failure of such inter-racial relationship (1) Imran Khan & aunt Jemima (2)Princess Di & the egyptian playboy.
The next one coming up to be another legendary one is famous fast baller who is barred from Pak Cricket team I dont even want to name him.
Interfaith marriage the one most important example of that was that of Qaid E Azam Mohammed Ali Jinnah and a very sad one too.

Kul yaar, I wore islamic black at my wedding.

I hear tampax wrapped his ammi head to toe with the dhaaga that sticks out of his ass. his ammi became a mummy. :-)

Alphay, I wore a parrot green polyester 3 piece suit from Marks and Spenser, for something that Reja-Md will be proud of me. I hope you also wore something too at yours.

Look at poor Tempax, he ended up marrying his mommy.

#334/335

There's no end to how far and how long the cockroaches will run to be in gora country.

Abey qadiani, you will all be caught at one time or another and beheaded like the Banu Quraiza and thrown in the ditch - headless.

Remember that.

(I spelt Banu Quraiza in caps because they had courage ... they refused the terms and preferred to die. You and your ilk, do not have courage. That's why I don't use caps for qadianis. You will run)

Kulharee, what did you wear at your wedding? Bell bottoms?

So, to make my wife a temporary resident, we found a brief job for her as a “consultant� hired overseas, which allowed her to be eligible to be married to someone who had the residency privileges, which I did back then. This happened after she had finished her master’s and was no longer a UK resident. Long friggin story.

T Saab (332), I was a young impressionable little jerk freshly in love not knowing what I was doing. Now I know better. However, it worked out for better in the end. There were some bureaucratic hurdles that we wanted to overcome, therefore we approached the churches and mosques. In the late 80s, unless you were one of commonwealth, or EU, it was hard to get registered (at the registry) in England as a couple. We could have gone to New York (get married there, and then bring my American wife to England easily, but it was not possible for us at that time). In other words, tourists from non-commonwealth or non EU could not go to a registry to get married (we needed the paper “married� to pursue other options – employment, where to live, etc. But it was a learning experience, just as a 100 million other experiences. It only made us stronger. Now I stay away from maulvis. and they stay away from me too.

Kulharee, tahmed, masadi:

Thanks for the advice.

kulharee: one issue with your article - you said your maulvi refused to conduct the marriage ceremony unless the girl converted. why did you feel the need to even approach one of these scoundrels (and feed him on top of putting up with his hot air that a maulvi will produce at every opportunity) when you know that there is no organized priesthood in islam? any muslim can serve as the imam if you wanted to have a religious ceremony.

Masadi Sahib (330), I love you… fully agree with you on this one. My son, is planning a major in Biological Anthropology and has no interest in becoming a doctor.

#322 GT: I think kulharee's advice ("The best way to raise kids...is to give them wings. Never put them down. Be firm, but always trust them. After that, let them fly away.") is good as far as it goes. I would add to this: Draw some lines: 1. Trust them, and let them know that you expect them to be honest with you no matter what. They should know that other mistakes are forgiven, but lying is not. This will help them in everything they do later on. 2. Certain destructive forms of behavior - smoking, drugs, and so forth You or the missus need to have the eye of an eagle on this one, in addition to reminders. Most people would like to think that this doesnt happen, but these are in fact very much a hazard in the US particularly in high school, and I am pretty sure in Pakistan too. Luckily, once they avoid this in school, they generally are fine in college.

And dont follow the "desi syndrome" of pushing them to become a doctor or lawyer. Good if they do it on their own, but also good if they find something else if they are really committed to it.

Didnt mean to ramble on and you are probably aware of all this anyway. but what the heck.. :-)

#323 read "Does disproportionate me NO WHITES "

as "Does disproportionate mean NO WHITES "

neembu writes "Masadi,

where are your current and credible stats in support of your claim?"

These "stats" are no secret, they are published by the US government itself, do your google search. A whole series of them are listed in my article "Constructing a Global Ghetto....." published by the Bangladesh Journal of Sociology. Read it and get an education....

Kulharee writes "Then there are those that view everything from Hooka to Malangni thru colonial paradigm."

A cheap escape like we have come to expect of Mr. Feroz QUtabshahi, deliberately ignoring the fact that the global institutions of trade, finance, manufacture, war making, culture generation (media), is dominated by neo-colonial, white-man structures that predominantly determine what is acceptible and unacceptible, desirable and undesirable...and in that chain the colored people unless they imitate the white man, and even then are considered lower in the scale of worth than the white man, as psychological fact which is also reproduced in the material world as developed and undeveloped nations....colonial paradigm or not, the overwhelming evidence reveals that the globe moreso than during physical colonization submits to serving the desires of its colonial masters, the power elite. Paul had it right when he said that the devil is the god of this world, for he determines its structures and thus not only your life chances but how you view yourself and your narrow existence. Only those who can rise above it and shun the worship of the devil, see through his matrix and reject it for the reality based on justice above it are the ones who attain salvation- but that involves struggle, intellectual, moral and physical- what we term Jihad. It has nothing to do with the Talibans and the Jihadists who are mere pawns in this game of the Shaitan.....

g'night..............

Re: # 323

Masadi,

where are your current and credible stats in support of your claim?

GT writes "At times I wonder whether I am doing enough for the children. "

Unless you tell them the reality of their existence in the land you live in, and what the white man has done and is doing to your people, including their image of themselves which is constructed through the eyes of others and the "others" include predominantly the white man's society and structures- and instruct them to see all that and reject it, you would have failed in your duty as a parent. It was in that context that I said you're in real trouble if you follow the Kulharee example of rank racism where they see themselves as less than the white man in front of whom they become his peons and imitators and in front of their own kind "whiter than white" (kind of like hamid the sage of the sewers here on chowk)....good day and good luck...you can thank me later, though that is unnecessary just don't curse my parents like Kulharee does after I give him good advice....

Thanks everybody. It’s been an eye-opener. Apparently, there are Desis with all sorts of pre-conceived ideas, even about my family that they have never met (but that’s okay). Then there are those who don’t approve of such unions. My answer to them is to count your blessings and thank your imaginary God that you are not married to some horrible other race (created by some other stupid God) than your own precious pious one. Then there are those that view everything from Hooka to Malangni thru colonial paradigm. But most Desis appear to be comfortable with interracial marriages. The bottomline is that it’s all okay. You stick to your own kind, preferably first cousins, and let other find what they decide to do with their lives. Thanks.


GT Sahib, Those feelings are very normal. Every parent should always be asking oneself if he/she is doing right. The best way to raise kids (in my opinion) is to give them wings. Never put them down. Be firm, but always trust them. After that, let them fly away.

neembu writes " and there is a significant population of working poor White Americans in the US. Neither population fits into your facile explanations; how do you account for them? "

You really need to go back to school, high schoola and all. Nowhere am I denying that America is a classless society, in fact it is clearly demarked between the elite their servers, and the rest fit higher or lower into the working class, there is certainly no middle class to speak of given the fluid nature of jobs, relocations and the new economy of part time temporary work, two three jobs per person and low paid service work. What I am saying is that the lower rungs of the working class and the underclass are disproportionaley made up of people of color- what part of disproportionate do you not understand. Does disproportionate me NO WHITES in the underclass? does it? That is why I am asking you to do yourself a favor and reenroll in school, like Billy Madison, though you wont find a white woman like he did unless she happens to be the size of dumbo.....good day now, don't waste my time and yours....

#312 Posted by tahmed32:

"...what scares you?"
At times I wonder whether I am doing enough for the children.

Dear cutters-and-paste artists on CHOWK,

Edit, re-phrase, be original (except in religion), be good please.

One can never guess from the CHOWK front-page what devils lurk behind these interacts.

Masadi Sahib:

The Black Church Rejects Rev. Dr. King
By John Blake
CNN



(CNN) -- In a stinging passage from a "Letter from Birmingham City Jail," the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. condemned white churches for rejecting his pleas for support.





"In the midst of blatant injustices inflicted upon the Negro, I have watched white churches stand on the sideline and merely mouth pious irrelevancies," King wrote from jail during the 1963 Birmingham, Alabama, demonstrations.



The contemporary white church has largely accepted King as a religious hero. Yet some observers say there is one religious community that continues to shun King -- the black church.



Forty years after his death, King remains a prophet without honor in the institution that nurtured him, black preachers and scholars say. King's "prophetic" model of ministry -- one that confronted political and economic institutions of power -- has been sidelined by the prosperity gospel.



Prosperity ministers preach that God rewards the faithful with wealth and spiritual power. Prosperity pastors such as Bishop T.D. Jakes have become the most popular preachers in the black church. They've also become brands. They've built megachurches and business empires with the prosperity message.



Black prophetic pastors rarely fill the pews like other pastors, though, because their message is so inflammatory, says Henry Wheeler, a church historian. Prophetic pastors like the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, the former pastor for Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Barack Obama, often enrage people because they proclaim God's judgment on nations, he says.



"It's dangerous to be prophetic," said Wheeler, who is also president of the Christian Theological Seminary in Indianapolis, Indiana.



"I don't know many prophetic preachers who are driving big cars and living very comfortably. You don't generally build huge churches by making folks uncomfortable on Sunday morning," he said.





The prosperity gospel started as a fringe doctrine in the black church. It was pioneered by "Rev. Ike," a prosperity televangelist with a pompadour who boasted during his heyday in the 1970s that "my garages runneth over."



Jonathan Walton, author of "Watch This! Televangelism and African American Religious Culture," says that although people may have chuckled at Ike's flamboyance, his theology exerts more influence in the modern black church than King's.



"King got the glory and the history books, but ... [Ike has] got the numbers," said Walton, who is also an assistant professor of religious studies at the University of California, Riverside.



Black prosperity preachers say their message is not based on greed, though, but self-help.

Bishop Paul Morton, senior pastor of Greater St. Stephens Full Gospel Church in New Orleans, Louisiana, says that teaching black people better money management is the "next dimension" of King's ministry.



"The Bible said that the poor we will always have with us," he said. "It's up to us to bring ourselves out of the curse of poverty."



Morton was the only black prosperity preacher contacted who agreed to talk about King's ministry. Many of the black church's most popular prosperity preachers -- the Rev. Creflo Dollar of Atlanta, Georgia; the Rev. Fred Price of Los Angeles, California; and Bishop Keith Butler of Detroit, Michigan -- all declined.



Jakes, the most popular prosperity preacher (he made the cover of Time magazine in 2001), declined to talk as well. He did, however, address his views on social justice in August on "Religion & Ethics," a PBS news program.



"I'm not against marching," Jakes said. "But in the '60s, the challenge of the black church was to march. And there are times now perhaps that we may need to march. But there's more facing us than social justice. There's personal responsibility, motivating and equipping people to live the best lives that they can."



The debate between self-help and political activism is nothing new in the black community. Booker T. Washington and W.E.B. DuBois clashed over the issue at the beginning of the 20th century. Most black prophetic teachers teach self-help along with activism.

King was caught in the middle of this debate early in his ministry.

King became prominent after leading the Montgomery bus boycott in 1956, but he was already gaining a name for himself in the National Baptist Convention, the largest black church organization in the nation.



King wanted to use the convention as an institutional base for the movement. But his tactics -- civil disobedience, publicly confronting segregationists -- were repudiated by convention leaders and the Rev. J.H. Jackson, the convention president, says Wheeler, the church historian.



"He thought that if blacks were good citizens, worked hard and did what was expected, our rights will come; we would prove out merit," Wheeler said.



In 1961, King tried to orchestrate the election of a leader to replace Jackson. He and a group of black ministers attempted to vote Jackson out of office at the convention's annual meeting. It was a disaster.



According to Taylor Branch's Pulitzer Prize-winning book, "Parting the Waters: America in the King Years," ministers exchanged blows. One lost three teeth. Another was killed when his skull was fractured. Riot police were called out to separate the warring pastors.



Jackson kicked King out of the convention and held onto power. The pastors who aligned themselves with King formed their own group, the Progressive National Baptist Convention. The schism remains today.



Wheeler says the black church's rejection of King wasn't confined to its leadership. Most people in the pews didn't want to get involved. The movement was driven primarily by younger people.



Fear was the primary reason, he says.



"We forget that people were getting killed, churches being burned," he said. "It was the common understanding that things were not going to change, that people were getting killed for nothing."



A new generation of prophetic ministers in the black church is now trying to do what King once attempted: gain a voice in the establishment.



Four years ago, a group of them formed the Samuel DeWitt Proctor Conference. Proctor was a scholar and college president who was active in the civil rights movement. The annual conference attempts to preserve the prophetic voice of black churches by bringing like-minded pastors together for support and advice.



A few prophetic pastors have even talked about taking another approach to raising their profile in the black church: television, says Lawrence Mamiya, a professor of religion at Vassar College in Poughkeepsie, New York.



"Some of them have talked about the need to get on television and try to counter the televangelists, but I don't know of any social justice preacher who has a broad television audience," he said.



At least one young prophetic minister has found a prominent place in the public eye.

The Rev. Raphael Warnock, senior pastor of Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta, where King preached, says that prosperity preaching is not just a distortion of Jesus' message but a betrayal of the black church's heritage. The black church was formed by slaves who saw Jesus' message as a tool for social justice.



"The prophetic voice of the black church is the very reason for its being," Warnock said. "The only reason that there's such a thing as the black church is because of the question of freedom, justice and equal access."



Walton, the University of California scholar, says contemporary black churchgoers have now embraced another mission: equal access to wealth. "It's the theological doctrine of American culture," he said.



King's voice may ring out in the history books, but it no longer rings out in the black pews. Walton says the battle between the prophetic and prosperity ministers in the black church is over for now.



The Rev. Ikes have won.






"Many Americans give lip service to entering the social justice arena and speaking out against the economic and politically powerful," Walton said, "but very few of us are willing to pay the price."



"We like to identify with Dr. King in theory, though we emulate Rev. Ike in practice."

Re: # 318

Masadi Sahib,

I understand disproportionality, etc. I'm pointing out that in reality, there is a growing of color population in the US and there is a significant population of working poor White Americans in the US. Neither population fits into your facile explanations; how do you account for them?

neembu writes "Seriously. Interact with tameez or I will not continue this conversation"

Quit this BS, you have nothing, what I wrote is factually documented, race and class in America is closely and thoroughly linked and the facts support what I say. There is not a single economist or sociologist other than the die hard right wingers (like Dinesh Dsouza) that will deny stratification based on race in the US. What I am saying is not that there isnt a single black rich man or group of middle class blacks, what I am writing about is the disproportionality of class based on race- which is a fact which shows any fool who knows how to read social data that race is a determining factor. Now don't waste my time- it is quite clear you don't have a clue about this issue...

Re: # 314

Masadi Sahib,

Seriously. Interact with tameez or I will not continue this conversation.

Are you saying that there are no affluent Af Ams, Asian Ams, Latino Ams, Native Ams in the US?

Yes or no?

"My mother-in-law put a curse on us and spat in my husband's face
I really think we are cursed now, because I am not Greek. How do I remove the curse?
By Cary Tennis

Apr. 07, 2008 | Dear Cary,

My mother-in-law put a curse on my husband and me -- I believe she couldn't get through to me and so she attacked him. She cursed that he would never make any money in his life, that he would lose his business, lose his wife, me, and the kids, and be completely destroyed. And to seal the curse, she spat in his face twice.

I'm a very superstitious person and I truly believe that she sealed this curse on him. The reason is that they are Greek and I am not. They want control over us, and I refuse to have anyone control me anymore. I've been with him for over 12 years, eight of which we've been married; we have three little kids together. I've done everything I could to make them happy and to basically accept me, and no matter what, they just don't. They would be fine in front of me and then talk behind my back to others. The entire family and friends have told me the things they've said, but yet, I put it aside. My little cousin died (12 years old), and they never came to the funeral, and they didn't even apologize -- instead they completely avoided me and had no respect.

Anyway, that was the beginning of my awakening, and I stopped doing all the things that I was previously doing for them, like their laundry, their housecleaning, ironing, etc., just everything. We had a huge blowout last year around the same time because I went to do my hair -- and they were like, Why should I highlight my hair? What, was I trying to be a model? Well, it started like that and became really huge, and now this.

Any help on how to remove this would be great.

Cursed by Mother-in-Law

Dear Cursed,

I hope you will forgive me if I tell you I don't believe in curses in the literal way. But I believe trauma can be a kind of curse. It must have been very traumatic to see your mother-in-law spit in your husband's face! It must be very traumatic to have this family that does not accept you and that works against you and does not respect you. And if they feel that because they are Greek and you are not, that they are better than you, that must be terribly discouraging.

Trauma can of course be a kind of curse. It can weigh you down and paralyze you and confused you and fill you with fear and ultimately bring about the very thing that it has no "real," demonstrable power to bring about -- your failure, your misfortune!

People's words can be a curse. While one can take this to extremes, I think it is true that by speaking certain words habitually, or in a traumatizing way, we can send messages to ourselves and to others that in a sense bypass our conscious control and affect us profoundly without our consent. Someone may say to a child over and over, "You're no good. You'll never be any good," and they may as well have cursed that child. We can affect other adults with our words as well. And surely, an attack such as you describe can put a curse on an adult son, rendering him weakened, fearful, put-upon and unloved, rendering him bitter and unhappy. That bitterness and unhappiness, in turn, might bring about the very effects the curse intended. Also, because a son desires to prove his mother right, he may in some way now wish to fail, in order to please his mother, whom he no doubt loves in spite of her mistreatment.

Finally, if you believe the curse is real, then it is real, and it must be lifted somehow. You must find the correct ritual to lift it.

How can you break such a curse as that? Perhaps you have ritual methods that others in your family have used? If so, use them. If not, I don't know. Perhaps you can write a letter to your mother-in-law, informing her that the spell has been lifted by an agency of your own devising. Perhaps to unseal this curse and break its spell, you could perform some magic on your husband's face; perhaps you could dab it with warm water, or magical oils, until the mother's curse is gone; or perhaps he could go have a facial. Perhaps you and your husband could go sit in the enzyme baths up at Olema and be purified.

Rituals can have great power to heal, but it must be the right ritual. I encourage you to undertake some rituals to remove this curse. The choice of ritual must be yours, however, as I do not even know what region of the world you are in. Olema is in Northern California, and we're all crazy here. We'll believe anything. "

www.salon.com

GT writes "Sometimes I get a bit scared"

You should be very scared, mortally scared if you take Kulharee (Feroz Qutabshahi) as the standard (the "as well"). I fear for your children and pity you....

neembu writes "Your first premise, that race allocates class is faulty to begin with.."

I suggest that if you don't know about something or are ignorant, as you are in this case you should shut up. It took you two days to come up with this nonsense you wrote. When blacks are disproportionately high in the lower and disproportionaltely low in the higher classes, when their unemployment is double that of whites, when their incomes are half that of them, then RACE as a stratification factor definitely determines you life chances and hence your class. Gender discrimination works the same way, you cannot say that just because there are middle class women there is no gender discrimination in the US. Get an education...

Re: # 300

Your first premise, that race allocates class is faulty to begin with. How do you account for middle and upper class Af Ams, Latino Ams, Asian-Ams, etc.? In other words, as usual Masadi, you are making gross generalizations that cannot be factually supported.

GT: what scares you?

Kulharee,

This was a very nice read. Also, congratulations! You have brought up your kids well. I hope I am able to do as well. Sometimes I get a bit scared. Again, enjoyed reading.

Regards.

pow writes " tahmedi saab it is good as majamidar saab says. there will be less Baangladaishis around saab. its not all bad news saab "

You need to get your act straight. These peons of the West act all uppity with their own kind, only in the presence of the white man do they act like you, all kiss a$$ and worshipful and "jaan hazir hey" looks, kind of like the current PM when he met Negroponte. The way you are acting tells me that you are a coolie of the peons of the West and not the standard character traits that describe the peons of the West. Get your act straight or change your name....

peon sahib: i wonder if you have asked the bangladeshi hazraat their views on this question.

#306 majumdar sahib: i still think that we should not depend on the roll of the dice on such a sea change (which in this case is more than just a metaphor).

Re: # 305

tahmeedi saab it is good as majamidar saab says. there will be less Baangladaishis around saab. its not all bad news saab

Tahmed sahib,

Well you could end up with arid regions of Indo-Pak receiving lots more rain and becoming fertile regions like Indus Valley of old. You never know it may be a good thing.

Regards

PS: Will be waiting for a FP article from you on the same.

majumdar qibla #302: unfortunately what i have noticed sir is that the wind cannot read political maps. similarly, global warming cannot understand that it should stop at immigration check posts of the bangladesh-india border. the fact is that coastal areas around the world (not just bangladesh) are headed towards becoming ocean floors within a few short decades.

no one can predict how all this will play out (e.g. will northern india and pakistan become waterless deserts? will the Siberia turn into a green pasture into which hundreds of millions of "climate refugees" from the sub-contiennt force their wa into?) but one thing is for sure - instead of wasting their little resources on warplanes and subs that serve no practical purpose and endless crap about kashmir, subcontinent governments should be getting serious about the climate problems looming over the next few decades.

Re: # 296

yawn.



Masadi Sahib,

to be continued.

Ana, oh ho.. I most certainly realize that. My last post was directed to those who put themselves on a high moral pedestal and start passing judgments on others without even knowing any shyt they are talking about. TAhmad Sahib, for instance, makes an observation that kids that are being raised in some Desi families require more attention than the case of multiracial kids (because these poor kids are totally neglected by their Desi parents and when they try to emulate their peers in dressing up or wanting to try different foods, it bothers their parents and Islam and other stuff is revoked). You are by far the most knowlagable on this subject, and I enjoyed reading your views as well. Now don’t even think for a second that I am ever bothered by Lahori naivete even for a bit. Gimme a little more credit than that. Yassis!

T Saab. That’s what my observations have also been my interactions with many Pakistani families that live in New York. The contradictions in our communities are so vast and acerbic that one can only hope that the our next generation is a bit more assimilated, not so insulated and inward looking. Thanks for your kind words.

Tahmed sahib,

(has anyone wondered how a few short decades from now when all of bangladesh is under water, where will the 200-250 million bangladeshis go? )

As long as it is not India, I have no issues.

Regards

Re: # 220
All the grown man wants is 'cooked rare with extra mayonnaise' take-away at CHOWK. The only flaw with the order is that at Chowk, you don't ask for a take-away, you eat 'em alive!

):

neembu writes "And also Masadi,

perhaps you should be reviewing the overwhelming evidence of class based discrimination that is part and parcel of empire building. "

When race determines the class that is allocated to you- as the evidence reveal overwhelmingly- then you cannot say its class and not race. Second race difference as allocation of life chances is more persistent because this "acquired status" cannot be easily hidden or got rid of in a culture dominated by racism- hense the fact that the Irish overtime were accomodated and now there are no race based stats that show discrimination among any immigrant white ethnicity in the US while segregation indicies/ employment/income etc between white/black have remained high throughout the post slavery era....

Kulharee pa ji, I hope you realize that whatever I have written is not to denigrate you or your wife, or Greeks, or whites or even us. I liked the article very much. I can see from what you have written and our other exchanges that you two do respect each others cultures and have made them your own. And if more people could do that, well, I'll just keep my "Lahori naivete" to myself. ;)

Yassou!

arjuna: Dude, Kosta in my Big Fat Greek Wedding would not have said that other civilizations gave us philosophy, arts and drama before the Greeks. Some Greeks really believe that they were the first.

#295 Posted by Kulharee on April 6, 2008 3:42:25 pm


while northern Europeans were climbing trees, Greeks had already conquered the world and built cities that are marveled to day. Ha ha about Greeks not feeling ‘white’. And yes, it were other civilizations that gave us philosophy, arts, drama, and not Greeks.


dude..you sound like the father from my big fat greek wedding...

Feroz Axeman sahib: Finally read your article. I can see it comes from the heart, and enjoyed reading it.

You and your wife clearly have mutual respect for your different cultures.

I know a number of such mixed-heritage couples who have demonstrated similar mutual respect, and their children have in all cases grown up to be well-adjusted adults for whom their mixed culture background is an asset and not a liability.

Ironically, the most confused children I have seen have been where both couples were ultra-conservative Pakistanis. Thus, there is this girl who (per reports from her classmates) wears the hijab around her parents and takes it off in school. Then there was this brother and sister visiting from Pakistan who sat piously nodding their heads while their mother bragged about how strict they were in their hilal diet. And yet, the moment they were alone with some other kids, begged those kids to be taken to a some place with a big juicy totally non-hilal hamburger. This is just one example of the hypocrisy which is all that "islam lovers" breed when they seek to paint western culture as being corrupt and hold their "islamic culture" as being a stamp of moral superiority.

#293 Posted by neembu

Samina,
That is amazing! You can actually write something that makes sense. Were you not able to find any web site worthy of copy paste to respond to my post?

I think if you continue to write original pieces like the one you just posted #293, possibilities are that you may get a tenured position in the next fifty years.

But the amount of Cholesterol you carry may send you North of 125th street way before that!

Wish you best of luck in whatever you get first!

Ana, the title was not given at an impulse, but after a serious reflection. The purpose was to highlight the challenges (many) such couples face, and the discussion that it generated proves my points very well (at least I would like to think so). Look at some jokers passing judgments on why people marry outside of their race, this type of garbage goes in our one ear and out the other. My wife is very respectful of values of my culture and dresses appropriate to Pakistani sensibilities while there. I think some people here need some serious counseling. As said earlier, bigots and racists come in every shape size and color, and by golly we have our fair share – but we are so fuking stupid to admit it and stupider to even confront it. Some Greek reading this would laugh at the suggestion that how they are not consider “white� by other whites.. they could give a fuk (as a group) about why would anyone worry about them being white or not. I have never known another group so proud of being who they are (sometimes too much of that can be annoying), and while northern Europeans were climbing trees, Greeks had already conquered the world and built cities that are marveled to day. Ha ha about Greeks not feeling ‘white’. And yes, it were other civilizations that gave us philosophy, arts, drama, and not Greeks.

#292 peonofthewest

Thank you for your offer to send your mother over after diner. I really appreciate it. However, I have to decline this one as I don't like to hobnob with peons and servants in my household. They are just not my class. Also, they are just too poor to have some healthy mothers and sisters.

Anyway, scuttlebutt has it that your mother is nothing more than a hole in the wall!
Thanks!

Re: # 291

Hari Pisshna,

Since you are a child when you were a child in those days that you were childish, not harishness, or pishness, or huppy ishness, but chishness, and chidewide, and smudged with pieshkii, we can only say your post is chispish.

Re: # 291

HP saab (its not short for Horse Poo is it saab?), you are the stupid saab.

i dont like blackies myself saab. see what i said about the kaala bhooka bangaali saab.

saab you look like someone who is in a big need to have a woman saab (black or white or brown or yellow). given how stupid you are saab i dont think you can be too picky saab

#202 Posted by neembu

Samina,

I thought you know a little bit about the social, economic, and cultural issues. Your question to Asadi really tells me that there really is not much depth in your thoughts.

There is no way any sensible person would misconstrue what Asadi said. Too bad, you can’t figure it out yourself. So let me help here.

You appear to be a Chomsky fan so I will refer you to one of his recent article.
http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20080226.htm

Try to relate what Chomsky wrote with what Asadi has posted. Often, I don’t agree with Chomsky but a liberal and radical like you would wanna figure out how the things are implied in written political pieces and how the words are used in political speeches.

Childish questions like that don’t enhance your profile.

Re: # 287

iam thankful to you for that
& I didnt took it personally

Tahmed, it is not a state secret that it is common for women in Pakistan to cover their heads. I am aware that not all do it, but many certainly do. All the pictures I saw of Jemima in Pakistan, even when not campaigning, certainly showed her with her head covered.
There is no need to get all defensive about it.

Re: # 285
Sorry i was adressing bjkumar.

#281 Posted by ana

“And HP there are more than a few Lahoris, myself included,�

Ana, I did not mean to generalize but sometimes you have to live with the tag. There are people who have a better sense and are not what the stereotypes would suggest. Majha-Sajha, Talanga and the special streak of stupidity or just ignorance are all part of Lahore’s culture. Yes, it may appear to you that it is generalization but it is a tag that sometimes gets so badly stuck that it is hard to unglue it. Some people enjoy it, others just ignore, and some others live with that!

I am sure you would just ignore it instead of taking it personally.

Saadya bibi, nothing personal. I was just giving you a picture of what the Color-Blind love actually means. Don't ferret over it.

I just read the article & sent my views on it

i dont pass comments at people

every one has the right to think on his /her own

Re: # 284

what are u trying to say mr treetop

its going over my head

Re: # 283
But seriously Saadiya.....Is it like saying Hi or Hello?
Subconcious is tricky.

Re: # 280

[why u became angry]

Perhaps he became angry because he is unhappy.

Perhaps he is unhappy because he is jealous.

Perhaps he is jealous because...

I better not go THERE! He might feel harrassed.

But seriously Saadiya, HP was merely "using" you to get at somebody, so do not take it too hard.

If you like a chick....say ...salam then ...BAM...then thank you mam...make your life a little simpler.

#273

The title of this article really should not have been color-blind love, because if Kulharee was talking mostly about his own family, it was mostly about an interfaith marriage.

Having said that, I think the writer of this article might have applied the metaphor across the board to race, faith, ethnicity, as you have suggested. So you're not entirely wrong. . .lighter note or not

And HP there are more than a few Lahoris, myself included, who would take exception to your generalizing about "the usual Lahori naiveties." While you're talking about sub-consciously choosing, you might check your own not-so-subconscious choosing to make a statement like that. :)

Peace!

Re: # 274

do one thing mr HP write on this topic by urself

it will be pleasure to send comments on it

write a good one

waiting :P

MR HP

I just said it in a lighter note

why u became angry

Re: # 274

HP I very much understand outstanding anger by yourself and second it. It is fact man married white person so he can write or is subject/ topic. Nobody will write for marrying a cousin. Now think generously he has hurdles to pass and continue marriage when in usa 50% are sinking in storm.Even it is interesting story for normal people for going through life.
Even in our dark wheat colored country we differentiate all
,time all life.

I always told my daughters you are equal to males and there is no problem for advancenemt. I also told them if you feel inferior then you are.

So no point in freighting or getting angry. I never feel inferior to whites or dark indians if I feel other way then I am inferior.

Liking white women and men is fine and seeking also is nothing wrong its persuit of happyness or is not indicative of inferiority.
MR.Quatabshahi has not claimed to be superior by his words or response,be fair and let it go.

Re: # 274

HP I very much understand outstanding anger by yourself and second it. It is fact man married white person so he can write or is subject/ topic. Nobody will write for marrying a cousin. Now think generously he has hurdles to pass and continue marriage when in usa 50% are sinking in storm.Even it is interesting story for normal people for going through life.
Even in our dark wheat colored country we differentiate all
,time all life.

I always told my daughters you are equal to males and there is no problem for advancenemt. I also told them if you feel inferior then you are.

So no point in freighting or getting angry. I never feel inferior to whites or dark indians if I feel other way then I am inferior.

Liking white women and men is fine and seeking also is nothing wrong its persuit of happyness or is not indicative of inferiority.
MR.Quatabshahi has not claimed to be superior by his words or response,be fair and let it go.

Re: # 209

Samina:

"...class based discrimination that is part and parcel of empire building...."

You have finally spelled it for Massaddi Mian.

He is unable to study empire building as extension of basic human nature. He does not even have the courage to study it, else his beliefs in his favorite Islamic Empire would be in serious trouble. I had earlier challenged him on it from integral part of "Elites" in all societies.

Re: # 274 HP sir,you are partially right.
Long time back it was something for people will oppose for whaever reason.
Recently all charm of such outrageous behaviour is lost nobody cares and does not oppose so all heroic of marrying is going to dogs.Allfun is lost it just two individuals.
Old times women filks use to worry if they can makegood money, men were were interested in knowing if they are educated, the family members were curious about family Khandan etc now all only interested in party food and drink . No value to race , religion , welcome tonew world.
good night

"I heard & now when some body marries some one with different race ,color,religion ...........he will be called color-blind in love."

No Saadya bibi, You got it wrong. This title was subconsciously chosen to show the author's pride in marrying a White. How stupid was that? We can ascribe that to the usual Lahori naiveties. The author thinks there are only two races in the world, White and non white. Whites always right...nonwhite always wrong. Fking Uncle Toms!

regardless of the discussion going on here..........I was just thinking about the "title" of article "Color-Blind Love"
Isnt it amzaing.what an idea to use this terminology :)

LOVE IS BLIND................I heard & now when some body marries some one with different race ,color,religion ...........he will be called color-blind in love. GREAT :D

#269 Posted by ana,

...koi farq naeen painda je meiN kuj akkhaaN...

LoL ... now I'm doubly sure I was wrong in calling you that! Confirmed!

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Tahmed,

The answer is not floating cities, but what the example you mention in your 246. There is plenty of empty land on the world which can be made liveable with the modern technology. The Saudies can follow the Newzealander's example and spend some of their petro Dollars to make the desert liveable and settle the Bangladeshis there. I know this is not going to happen, but it is thought.

zeemax:

as we have explained to masadi earlier, redflagging has no effect whatsoever. koi farq naeen painda je meiN kuj akkhaaN. . .that person does not like your posts. is my asking whoever it is to stop going to make a difference? i doubt it.

Re: # 267

zemaxi saab, i have a job saab. i told you before saab, just because you have a new girlfriend, no need to call your wife a dog saab. it is not nice saab

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Re: # 265

i dont want to be in a boat with a kaala and bhooka bangaali saab, you can kill me now saab

Re: # 260

no no tahmeedi saab, it cant be the same boat saab. the baangladaishis decided on a separate boat some years ago saab

ana,

Can you please ask this mad cow to stop red-flagging all my posts ... just look below. She/it even red-flagged this one:

#253 Posted by zeemax re #244 Posted by ana,

Oh, so I retract my title for you. You don't appear to be a St. Joseph bimbo after all. Now I'll have to find another one to call that!

saab you rich folk worry too much saab. if everything goes, it doesnt matter any more saab. may be it is the fashion saab

Re: # 261

tunkil,

no, you won't. i work and this is my few hours off. i was trying to be nice. take care!

#259 good. so it is settled. look forward to the article.

peonofthewest: not funny sir when you understand that ultimately we are all in the same boat as the bangladeshis are floating in sir.

Re: # 256

*sigh*.

#255 that too. but the dutch have this problem of being below the sea-level. so their floating houses are about rising sea levels.

Re: # 252

tahmeedi saab that is funny saab. hundreds of millions of baangladaishis floating about in the open sea saab

neembu: i am an achoot chowk poster, not a brahmin article writer. why dont you write up the fp article instead?

tahmed, i think that floating housing idea is oriented towards communities by the rivers

Re: # 252

no, of course you are right. this would be an excellent fp piece-why don't you research this issue and write it up so we can actuallu think about it?

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#249 neembu: no doubt bangladesh has many talented people. but still - is it realistic to expect people to survive while floating on the open sea?? this would stretch the limits of even the wealthiest of nations, let alone a couple of hundred million poverty stricken people who are barely able to survive on dry land.

Re: # 248

you will get bad kidneys saab and that is not good if you dont have drinking water saab

Re: # 246

tahmeedi saab, can the baangladaishis swim saab? if not, they are done

Re: # 246

tahmed,

there is actually a bangladeshi architect who is working on this plan. the proposal includes floating schools, hospitals, etc.. bangladesh's intellectuals (people like mohammad yunus) are brilliant enough to work this out. very exciting to see the results of their visions.

peonoftheeast sahib: not just hearing voices, sir, also seeing things in print. woe is me, sir. i must indeed be crazy sir.

nb #245 rest assured that you are being presumptuous when you make such generalizations, regardless of what is written in HPs posts.

#238 neembu: the dutch have already started building such floating houses in anticipation of rising oceans. but bangladesh has far more people and far fewer resources.

rising waters have already started enveloping pacific islands - new zealand has generously agreed to allow people from entire nations in the pacific - even signed an agreement with Tuvalu permitting entire population to migrate to nz. But the entire subcontinent is a different story.

tahmed,I don't have to presume. Read HP's post, it came before yours.

zeemax: actually i was aware of that, because that was happening when i was living there as well, but thank you once again for showing us what you do best here. :)

Re: # 239

tahmeedi saab you have started to hear voices like masadi saab too saab. that is too bad saab. may be you should see a doctor saab

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#229 Posted by tahmed32,

I agree tahmed 32. HP said the Sindhi language press is hopping mad over Zardari/MQM bhai bhai move ... and PPP workers are rebelling. Zardari will lose big time and split the PPP (with no small contribution by Amin Fahim) in Sindh, let alone Punjab which is already split because of Aitezaz's isolation by Zardari!

All that bodes well for my long-time heroes PML-N. Remember I had asked you to vote for them? But you didn't!

Re: # 235

tahmeedi saab if you are good with allah mian you will be allright saab

peonoftheeast: i shall close my ears sir next time someone mentions the word "global warming". maybe i will declare him to be a kaffir sir and even accuse him under blasphemy laws sir. that will teach these suckers sir!!

tahmed,

actually, have you heard of a plan being discussed in bangladeshi lately-floating housing communities. it's actually quite interesting.

tahmed: acha ji, what did you have for dinner last night? :)

And people are so focused on oil right now, but water, very huge issue. FIR's for water rights?

Re: # 216

re: Martin Luther King, Malcolm X:

Oh totally! Both leaders and intellectuals were so rigorous in challenging race construction that they became a serious threat to the govt at that point. Terms like "sell out" have to be really examined honestly before they are used.

#233 peonoftheeast sir: but you and i will simply be the peons even in heaven sir. serving food to the pious houries and pious sahibs while they are having their pious orgies sir.

Re: # 230

tahmeedi saab you should stop listening to him saab

Re: # 232

tahmeedi saab the we can all have parties with the houries saab!

peonoftheeast sir: exactly sir. if you have too much or too little melanin you dont die sir. but if you have too much water you die sir, and if you have too little water you also die sir.

neembu, yes I have heard of that. I have also seen all those Greek widowed grandmothers in black with scarves...so I know what you mean.

ana #228 ask me what i had for dinner yesterday. because that is when this gentleman was telling us about problems that are slightly more important than skin color - namely entire countries going under water. Did you know that the largest number of FIR (police reports) in Pakistan have nothing to do with religion or an ethnicities or anything? They have to do with water issues!

zeemax: on zardari i think he is not telling everything. clearly, "independence of the judiciary" is a red herring to detract from the fact that the judiciary is being crushed. i think we are headed for more problems - since i doubt if pakistanis who fought against dictatorship will give up so easily having come so far.

tahmed: what did you have for breakfast today?! :)

Re: # 226

tahmeedi saab if you dont have water saab you just die saab. it is very simple saab

peonoftheeast sahib: ok sir, so bangladesh will not be our problem sir. very good sir. they cant come crying to us for a place to live in.

but what about rivers drying up in the subcontinent sir? last time it happened to river saraswati, the indus valley civilization disappeared. i am really worried sir even though i have a wheatish complexion that i really like sir but what use is a good complexion sir if there is no water to drink sir?

#220 Posted by tahmed32,

What? Sir! This is indeed my normal self! I'm extremely fond of collecting kaneezes!!!

Anyway, off-topic, I had sought your and HP's comments re the recent distancing of Zardari from the Murree Accord, and HP gave his comments but still awaiting yours ...

that is funny tameedi saab i just answered that look!

(the population below is based on projected population of bangladesh at that time).

Re: # 219

tahmeed saab that was about an interact by aslami before so dont worry saab it is not good for your kidneys saab (or was it liver, i have to ask westy).

the ocean rising is good saab, too many people everywhere saab. this zameen was made by allah mian for only one billions peoples saab and we have now 6 billions saab. too many saab and a lot in india and baangladaish saab

further to #219: e.g. has anyone wondered how a few short decades from now when all of bangladesh is under water, where will the 200-250 million bangladeshis go?

zeemax: hope all is well at home with you. you dont sound very normal in your post below.

neembu: no problem. :-)

i cant imagine how superficial people can be - i mean, the subcontinent is facing the prospect of rising oceans, melting glaciers, expanding populations. and all people are worried about is the shape of their nose or the color of their skin!!

neembu Ji, I'm waiting for your email. zeemax@hotmail.com ... easy ...! I think you'd make a good and obedient kaneez!

sorry tahmed. i generally agreed with your comments

#208

Masadi is more a disciple of Mills than he is of Marx, but disciples can distort what their teachers put forth. I think he makes great points at times, but a lot of times very questionable. Like suggesting that the reason Pakistanis (and perhaps even Indians) look down on black folk is because they are aping the white man. The practice had been there before white folk came to our lands. Or like talking about how Malcolm X and Dr. King were sell-outs to the white man. . . etcetera etcetera etcetera.

***
aslam644: as neembu points out, race is more a construct. even if many greeks did think they were white, many whites would disagree. all these classifications of races, as was in the census before, and has changed, were in part created in order to justify one "race's" domination over the other.

It is far better in my opinion to see folk as being from different ethnicities since "race" is such a tainted word, but unfortunately I do not see that changing in my lifetime. And even there, there are problems as one ethnic group considers themselves superior to another. We humans are a very messed up bunch.

peon/aslam/neembu: i wanted to chat and no one replied.
:-(

#212 peonoftheeast: sahib just calling someone an idiot is a sure sign of being an idiot sir. but what do i know sir, i am just a stupid chowk poster sir.

#208 aslam: color is definitely a "state of mind": my granduncle was in the british indian army in wwi. their unit was posted in france - and one of the men in his regiment wanted to get married to a local girl. his british commander refused to permit the happy union, saying this would be against the laws of God.

trouble is: too many desis are stuck in the 19th century and the world has moved forward too fast for them.

Re: # 211

aslami saab, i read what you wrote before saab. i think you are an idiot saab but i am only a peon saab, what do i know

Some people have suggested that greeks are not pakka white, but that’s missing the point, if one were to ask greeks who do they identify with I’m pretty sure over 99% would say white European, so may be color is a state of mind.

#187 regard: interesting reflection on the jahil "desi" society where color of skin is considered so important that the term "black" is used as a form of abuse!!

And also Masadi,

perhaps you should be reviewing the overwhelming evidence of class based discrimination that is part and parcel of empire building. may i remind you that the irish were not considered white by the british and americans until fairly recently? this issue is much more complex than you admit-race to a very large extent is a false construction, is indefensible as a concept, and is defined by policy.

Re: # 205

Masadi,

I am a fairly outspoken critic of historically entrenched racism and colonialism. However, I think that seriously ignore that classism is as significant an issue to your critiques of societal inequity.

nb #68 have you ever even visited pakistan? so please dont presume things.

later... enough posts for now

neembu writes "Masadi,

Do you think all white people are equally powerful and active members of the norms, values and practice of dominant society?"

I think you need to learn how to read, those that define culture and assign definitions for the vast majority of the world - who have the authority and wealth to do so- want to perpetuate a picture of superior/inferior based on the color line- these definitions are internalized not only by the white folk (except for rejected aberrations who are few and far between) and the colored folk, and reproduced as actual fact in the material world- this ensures that this self-fulfilling prophecy of white superiortiy gets ingrained in social institutions based on definitions that were contrived to begin with. Even when you change laws that proclaimed "seperate but equal" (which were seperate and unequal because of the psyche) the psyche doesn't change- and the lack of that change is shown in indices of social distance like the Bogardus social distance scale in survey after survey, it is shown in race based job segmentation, it is shown by housing segregation indices based on race, it is shown by imprisonment stats, by unemployment rates, by income differentials....now you can take the Kulharee route and just because a white man smiles at his a$$ now and then he says all is fine and dandy and isntead of condemning the racists he becomes a rank racist and blames the "racism" of Malcolm X or labels me a racist; or you can take the educated route of which overwhelming evidence is presented above

Re: # 202 nimbu saab

masadi saab has already explained this in his previous millions of interacts saab. he is only critical of the 'elite' saab

isn't that right masadi saab?

#200 Posted by masadi on April 6, 2008 3:20:06 am

gems from masadi

arab colonialism was good because it was qualitatively different
paki racism is ok because they're only imitating the white man
denying bengalis their rights under the whole idhar hum is ok because that's how democracy works.

Re: # 200

Masadi,

Do you think all white people are equally powerful and active members of the norms, values and practice of dominant society?

Do you think all white people are equal beneficiaries of the institutions, policies and and socio-economic and political processes of the dominant societal structure?

I think you need to be honest about this.

Dedicated to Tampax and his janitor:


"Anonymous Abusers On Internet
Topic started by subroto on Apr 5, 2008 8:21:02 pm
The Organisation of Anonymous Abusers on Internet (TOAAI) has recently expressed dismay at being the target of abuse internet message board.
Speaking to reporters via a web chat the president of the organisation said that he was hurt that real life people had started targetting anonymous abusers on internet forums. "I mean I wud normaly not hve chatted wth a sick cow lke u but am ding it cos we kneed to get to meadia hos like u" he wrote while chatting to our correspondent Cathy.
K2B00Bs, as he is known, said that the internet provided a welcome outlet to stay at home underachievers who would otherwise lack the opportunity of normal interaction. "Fck mam this sucks big time like u probably do" he wrote, "all we r doing is targetting sickos who chat online using their real identitties, and dem basterurds turn agaiunsts us. Fuck man I cant say hw much it hurts having my imaginary familes bing abused. It jsut drivels me up my rockers".
According to K2B00Bs' other internet identity SuCKmYD1Ck, the internet was the only option middle-aged men could live their lives productively. I don't know how I'll be able to go on living in the real world with real social skills".


flag objectionable content "

Ana writes "there are more than a few pakistanis who look down upon the black man, and until those pakistanis get off their high horse, thinking they are superior to the black man, and stop writing songs like "dekho goray ka zamana kabhi hoga na purana""

Of course they will look down upon the black man, what else are they going to do when they are busy trying to imitate their white masters in order to rub off some of his "superiority" in order to develop self worth. The white man gave new definition to color difference in determining worth, translated that socially in the relationships that he governed around the globe into the psyche of his people and the people he ruled over. Now when someone wants to break free from those chains and tell the a-holes that neither their genes nor their societies are any better than ours, these peons of the west come forward and try to compare white racism to the imitation racism of their peons. The white man and his elite have translated their racism into systemic/institutional/global racism as fact in allocating life-chances- in employment, in income, in wealth and in global development- now all the peons who benefit from this setup can do is blame the victims for their own misery as if all of them, of different religions, ethnicities and nationalities, working their butts off yet losing the very little standards of living they had have themselves to blame (because their non-white genes are defective or sub-human). This mindset that the white man has politely institutionalized the globe over is translated into its raw form (minus the bells and whistels and window dressing) in the language used for the coloreds by the common red neck son of a bitch in America....the ones that tahmed worships- i.e. the white man's sh**

Re: # 197

nb, as far as I understand of ancient Greek civillization during the period of Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, etc., women were required to cover their hair with "shawls". They were seen as the embodiment of transgression and had to be "contained" in speech, appearance, and personality. Some Greek women friends who are part of Greek Orthodox communities say they find a great deal of similarity with Greek and Muslim orthodox cultural tradition re: the conceptions of the female body, etc.

re: Article
Just read the article. Well written Qutabshahi sahib.

Regards,

Faruk

Dostmittar, no, I did not think of that. The vilayati bahus I have known have done whatever they have been asked to for the few days or weeks they have been in India. Think of Sonia and her head...I'll wait for Kulharee to answer my question. Things certainly have changed with head-covering though; even when I was a child, it was expected of new brides that they would keep their heads covered for at least a few months to a year in front of elders. You really don't see that any more. Obviously, I think that's a good thing, others have the right to their own opinions.

#194 Posted by dost_mittar

...very occasionally, he does slip and writes perfect grammar and punctuation.

Really? Haha. Now I'll search his interacts to see where he let his guard down ...

#192 #194
Sure...if madini saab keep on writing someday would be in league with kafka.

zee#192:

"I wish he would use more punctuations, and paras, so readers don't run out of breath :)"

Ah, but that's part of the personna; very occasionally, he does slip and writes perfect grammar and punctuation.

... complex things in simple clownish terms!

#190 Posted by dost_mittar,

I agree re ahmedmadni Ji. He's one of the most original posters with a lot of depth and the ability to translate complex things in simple terms. But he can be very difficult to read. I wish he would use more punctuations, and paras, so readers don't run out of breath :)

nb:

I am somewhat surprised about your questions about head-covering. Surely, you know that we desis do not apply the same standards to goras (I am avoiding the use of the term "white" to avoid semantics) as we do to desis. In any case, the only place where covering head is almost mandatory in Pakistan is the NWFP.

akcheema#61:

" There is some level of innocence and sincerity in how you put your views forward.....I just can't stop laughing though!!"

Cheemaji, appearances can be deceptive, especially at chowk. Madaniji is one of the brightest, knowledgeable and original posters at chowk. He has assumed the pesonna of an ignorant, prejudiced Pakistani (he is probably neither) to fool the innocent.

Re: # 188; madani sahib,

No worries at all, sir.

If I was thought to be disrespectful to you before, I apologise profusely; I didn't know you and there are a lot of posers here like this peon character etc.

Do feel free to contact me if there is anything at all I can do to help sir; either on or off line.

My regards and Khuda Hafiz for now


Khuda Hafiz

Re: # 176

Thanks I will look at place mentioned.
I remember most bandishes but I forget as suffer from mental depression of mild degree and sometime more. I wrote one indian doctor of mentalhealth ( earlier they use to call them mad doctor)and he suggested things and I told local doctor and he felt good suggestion ,it helped. But here people are over smart and call him bad names( Shrink or some thing like that).This is good place as I get good info and chance to interact with not only educated but with wisdom.Sure there are lots of over educated fools but they got immigration to usa,they have edge. But here people are mostly good.
Thanks for giving suggestion.

(Now little technical This bihag and Maru Bihag are not same quite different. Only ragas little less distinct and I can get confused is Bhoop and Bhathier.)

Mr. T always critic me as I was first to Understand M.Asadi and support and second his ideas,so peoplelike peonofwest etc donot like me. I never criticise any body even they call me MAD"ni".
good day.

Man gets 2-year jail for calling wife 'black'
6 Apr 2008, 0046 hrs IST,Dhananjay Mahapatra,TNN

NEW DELHI: For a society often seen to reflect a deeply ingrained bias for "fair skin", a Supreme Court ruling sentencing a man to two years in jail for driving his wife to suicide following taunts over her "dark" complexion will serve as both a warning and a mirror to its uglier traits.

The apex court was firm that ridiculing a wife by calling her "black" amounted to severe mental torture.

It rejected the husband's plea that mere remarks about his spouse's complexion could not be taken into consideration as they did not amount to mental torture and that therefore, the conclusion that this drove her to commit suicide was erroneous.

The court said derogatory and contemptuous remarks about a woman's dark complexion, which could be worse than physical torture for a sensitive person, caused enough mental trauma to drive the accused's wife to take the extreme step.

The order from a Bench comprising Justices Altamas Kabir and J M Panchal for the first time marks a new sensitivity towards a form of discrimination that has been so common that it is not even considered as out of the ordinary.

While the court and legislature have acted against caste-based and, lately against gender-based prejudices, the colour handicap had not engaged its attention so far.

In the facts of the case, Syed Fathima, within two months of her marriage to Farook Batcha in August 1999, got so distressed with the constant quarrels in her matrimonial home because of her dark complexion that she finally decided to end her life by pouring kerosene and setting herself on fire.

In her dying declaration, she said that since her complexion was dark, her husband did not like her and there were frequent quarrels. A day after giving the statement, she died in hospital.

A Madurai sessions court as well as Madras High Court found the husband guilty under Section 498A of the Indian Penal Code (cruelty to women in matrimonial home) and sentenced him to two years imprisonment.

Re: # 185 correction

...answer my question...

Re: # 183; Tahir

you didn't ask my question. I repeat; where do YOU live my idiotic friend?

Why are you dishing out advice so patronisingly to others? Or is it some personal experience as I referred to before?

Now call for help from zee or his dog; I am off

Re: # 172
Thank you, hp, it may surprise you but that is just what I meant. I would have thought most people did do it.

Re: # 151
Dear Treetop,

Before someone asks you to go climb a pole, let me ask you to kill all perversion right here (no..no.. I don't mean CHOWK!) before you marry and God bestows upon you a beautiful daughter.

Now put that King James version aside in favour of guidance.

Re: # 181; Tahir

I am 36 years old, not that it is any of your business

now "poochhal dabao aur bhaago"

Khuda Hafiz for now

Re: # 178
Sir-Jinn Cheema,

"I have been happily married for 11 years..."

But how could you be at age seventeen, unless it was a child-marriage? Keep your children away from CHOWK, if you have any.

If one's faith (real practise, not just verbal profession) is what you call 'poonchal', yes I do mind lower animals stepping on it.

Whenever you feel I'm ignoring you, I'm being productive elsewhere. Any more questions little brother?

Peace.

Re: # 179; Tahir

where do YOU live my friend?

Re: # 145
Yeh aap phir say kaisi baataiN kar rahay haiN Zee sahib?

Mr. Ahmed Deedat has pointed all these abnormalities in the King James version quite well.

Leave them alone to live on the spiritual-moral fault-line. The activation of the fault-line will destroy the City of Lost Angels and the City of Gays and Bays.

Re: # 177; Tahir

I hope you caught up with my replies to your posts; Nos are 78/79 and 81

Enjoy

Re: # 143
To the sake of mattress-peace (if not the world's) here are the lyrics to Bobby Darin's song:

LEMON TREE
(Will Holt)

When I was just a lad of ten, my father said to me
Come here and take a lesson from the lovely lemon tree
Don't put your faith in love, my boy, my father said to me
I fear you'll find that love is like the lovely lemon tree
Lemon tree, very pretty, and the lemon flower is sweet
But the fruit of the poor lemon is impossible to eat

One day beneath the lemon tree, my love and I did lie
A girl so sweet that when she smiled, the stars rose in the sky
We past that summer lost in love beneath the lemon tree
The music of her laughter hid my fathers word from me
One day she left without a word, she took away the sun
And in the dark she left behind I knew what she had done
She left me for another, it's a common tale but true
A sadder man, but wiser, now I sing these words to you

Happy reminiscing!!

Re: # 173 madani sahib

you are a very interesting man sir!

I don't know if it helps you (I hope it does), there is an Indian Classics website I know; they have a few bandishes in Bihag but I couldn't locate that particular one.

May be you can try; something might just click with you as they say! the address is: www.swarganga.org

I hope you find it sir.

Enjoy!

Hi Kulharee (165): I love Greek Orthodox priests too! :) Although the ones I know would still not officiate a wedding between a Christian and someone of another faith.

HP (172): I agree about it being a sign of respect.

Re: # 140
'Baldly' was intentional because I love the bald eagle as a proud bird and not as a symbol of universal aggression.

I just thought I'd break up this fight bewteen the two of you. To smolder and simmer--that is true 'neembu-pani' love.

Good to the last drop.
):

I was just thinking on this subject of man's and woman's love. There is famous bandish presented in Maru Bihag with wonderful sweet rhythumic notes.

I remember boles partially and memory failing ,feel loss

AAYO RE SAJANIYA MAN BHANAV
ZANAK RAHO MORE PIYALIYA
Preet PIYAKI JAGI AAYE
***********************
***********************
If some body remembers please tell me......Thanks

(It is very delightful comosition slowly sharpness goes with time)
Thanks. AM

Ana,
This is a typical nb question which tahmed replied in the same vain.

I don't know about the "Culturally advanced" and the "non racist" Kulharee Family, traditionally women folk in Pakistan and I have observed it everywhere,cover their heads in elders presence.

There is no requirement to do that but it is a sign of respect for the elders. Now as I said some culturally advanced may not follow this tradition.

Ana, that's just what I'm asking-he says they have accepted her as a member of the biradari, which btw I think she must understand better than most, being Greek. I'm asking what changes she has had to make to fit in.
Kulharee, I'd like to tell you about something else. When the birth records became available online in the UK sometime ago, a couple of people I knew who searched for their own surnames-including at one distant relative, found to their shock that the grandfather or great grandfather whom they knew had studied to be a barrister or FRCS in England in the first half of the 20th century had fathered a child or children. Their families, including their wives had never had any idea. It must have been the same with young Muslim men whose families went on to be Pakistani after the partition. I thought it was amazing.

nb:

As Tahmed has told you, we do not have to cover our heads in Pakistan, and it has never been an "enforced" requirement as it's been in Iran since the Revolution. During the Zia era, some of us did in order to protect ourselves from being hassled by some men, but as far as I can remember it has never been a requirement for all women. The fact that some women do, and not just Muslim women, is by choice, or family tradition.

P.S. I noticed that you just responded to Tahmed, so apologize if this sounds repetitive. It would depend on how conservative Kul's biradari is.

make that the phenomenon of women covering their heads...thanks

Tahmed, don't be silly.....she's not likely to have to do it in front of kulharee's parents, maybe, but what of the distant uncles and aunties and the biradari elders who are less modern? Please don't tell me it never happens, and women covering their heads in Pakistan, or in India is a lot more common than satis, which make headlines about once a decade or less often.Are you going to tell me that women in Pakistan cover their heads fewer times than once a decade?

nb: women are not required to cover their heads in pakistan, just as women are not required to commit the suttee in india. (yawn..why do i have to tell you this?)

Kulharee, how do you negotiate around little things like whether your wife has to cover her head when she visits Pakistan and how well she speaks Urdu and how you get along in Greek with distant family in Greece?
I know this is all very personal, so feel free not to answer. Your article is very personal, and it has more self-disclosure than I could ever do! You're a brave man.

Hi Ana (#159), the priest at our local Holy Cross Church has become a good friend of the family (even though we only attend 2 or 3 times a year – and on deaths and baptisms). He tells me that more than half marriages he now officiates in his church are between Orthodox and other faiths. That to me is a sign of progress but I think it is still a big no-no between an Orthodox and a Muslim. I love Greek Priests. Religious stuff doesn’t bother me a bit.

Re: # 162 Bad news for "Bad news group ltd" messers Arjun ,Jayp and laddu


FOREIGN OFFENSIVE


Foreign Minister's first visit abroad is of China KARACHI, April 5 (APP): Foreign Minister, Makhdoom Shah Mehmood Qureshi’s first visit abroad will be that of Peoples Republic of China. He will be visiting China from April 10 accompanying President Pervez Musharraf. He said China is a great, time-tested and all-weather friend of Pakistan. China has always sided with Pakistan and is also extending assistance towards our economic development. He said it was his inner desire that the first country he should visit (as Foreign Minister) should be China and Allah Almighty has provided this opportunity. (Posted @ 21:18 PST)

DOMESTIC OFFENSIVE AGAINST VIOLENT PEOPLE



Pakistan arrests eight alleged suicide bombers Bahawalnagar, Punjab, April 05 (PPI): Bahawalnagar police Saturday arrested eight alleged suicide bombers who had planned to kill former federal minister Ejazul Haq. Addressing a press conference a police spokesman said 40-kg explosive, suicide jackets, literature and CDs were recovered from the possession of the accused. He said that earlier, two of their accomplices were killed when the bomb they had planted in a motorcycle to kill Ejazul Haq exploded. He said officers and personnel of Bahawalnagar police were also a target of the accused. He said that the group’s mastermind Maulana Farooq Rajanpuri was said to be a class-fellow of late Maulana Abdul Rashid Ghazi of Islamabad’s Lal Masjid. (Posted @ 21:54 PST)




JUST DEMAND


Pakistan desires to solve Kashmir issue in accordance with historic stand: FM KARACHI, April 5 (APP): The country's Kashmir policy has been formulated after due consideration and it was, is and will be our desire that this longstanding issue is resolved in accordance with our historic stand, Foreign Minister, Shah Mehmood Qureshi, said in Karachi on Saturday after visiting the mausoleum of Quaid-i-Azam where he placed floral wreaths and offered Fateha. Reciprocating Indian Foreign Minister Pranab Mukherjee’s desire for early resumption of the composite dialogue process, Shah Mehmood said he had extended an invitation to his Indian counterpart and the dates in this connection are being finalized. (Posted @ 17:00 PST)



INDIAS COMING TONEGOTATION KASHIMIR AS FREEDOM FIGHTER FORCED INDIA TO DO THAT





Indian PM to visit Pakistan soon: report NEW DELHI, April 5 (APP): Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh will visit Pakistan in the next couple of month, “Hindustan Times� quoting officials here said. No dates had been fixed, it said adding that Singh has a long-pending invitation to visit Pakistan . Indian Foreign Secretary Shivshankar Menon will soon visit Islamabad for having first contact with the newly elected government in Pakistan to review fourth round of Composite Dialogue. A couple of days ago, Indian External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee telephoned his Pakistani counter-part Shah Mehmood Qureshi and agreed to resume Composite Dialogue at the earliest. He will also visit Islamabad soon. The expectations from Indian Prime Minister's visit were high. An agreement on settling the Sir Creek boundary has become possible, the daily added. (Posted @ 17:20 PST)

PEACEFUL OFFENSIVE IN KASHMIR? GANDHI STYLE



Protesters in occupied Kashmir call for release of political prisoners from Indian jails SRINAGAR, occupied Kashmir, April 5 (AP) - Protesters threw rocks in occupied Kashmir and shops, schools and roads were near-empty Saturday after political parties called a strike to protest alleged mistreatment of political prisoners in Indian jails. The protesters converged in the main street near a mosque in Srinagar, chanting “We want freedom,� “Release the detainees.� They threw rocks at police and paramilitary forces who tried to prevent them from marching. Police fired tear gas after failing to disperse the crowd with bamboo sticks, a police officer said on condition of anonymity. At least three protesters and two policemen were injured, the officer said, adding five protesters were detained. Activists claim more than 1,400 Kashmiris are languishing in Indian jails, where prisoners are allegedly tortured and kept without trial. The strike, which kept most traffic off the roads and shuttered businesses in Srinagar, was called by Syed Ali Shah Geelani, head of the hard-line faction of All Parties Hurriyat Conference, the region's main separatist alliance. The strike was supported by the United Jehad Council, an alliance of several militant groups and a lawyers association. The separatist groups have wide support among Kashmiris. More than a dozen militant groups have been fighting in the Indian-controlled side since 1989, seeking Muslim-majority Kashmir's independence from predominantly Hindu India or its merger with Pakistan. At least 68,000 people, mostly civilians, have been killed in the conflict. (Posted @ 16:20 PST)









STRATEGIC THINKING




Pakistan, China enjoy strategic, close relations: PM Gilani ISLAMABAD, April 5 (APP): Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani Saturday said China was Pakistan's all-weather, time-tested friend with the two countries having strategic and close relationship in every field. In a meeting with a delegation of China Mobile Communication Corporation headed by its Chairman and CEO, Wang Jianzhou, he said the government wants major investors to make Pakistan as their destination. Wang Jianzhou said the company has invested US$700 million in Pakistan and another US$800 million would be invested by the end of this year when it would install 5180 new sites to cover 90% areas of Pakistan and provide jobs to 5,000 people. He also expressed interest for investment in education and environment sectors. (Posted @ 19:44 PST)
ARJUN LITTE HARD ON YOUR COMPANY ALL GOOD NEWS FOR PKSTAN. GOOD DAY

these people like neembu, zeemax/tampax,slyder,aslam,HP all make me sick saab. such filthy language saab. some worse than others saab.

probably explains how they were conceived or brought up saab. i blame the parents saab

#156 Posted by Kulharee on April 5, 2008 2:07:32 pm


“Your dad�, you idiot, was used as a metaphor, meaning goneby days. Don’t pretend to be so thickheaded.


What makes you think he was pretending...

Kulharee aka Mr. Qutabshai........ I feel sorry the comments have become ugly. I have my feeliing being product of time. I gave honest suggestions and my feelings and there was no hidden agenda to say bad words to any body or hurt. So kindly accept my feelings and feel sorry if inadvertently said some thing wrong.

I think you are fine away where you are with your greek wife and children. Honestly your home bad is like dirty pond. Many have tried to clean this pound.You or noone person can clean this pond. So you or many others go to better waters , which are not polluated ,its logical when one can not clean lake move to new clean pond. It is my earnest suggestion you can visit back home sometimes but do not move here.

I feel sorry what this has generated ugly exchange.

Good day and Good Luck

Ahmed Madani.

Manto, Sadly, yes. But any faith should not be like an exclusive club with membership privileges, therefore, I still consider myself an Ahmadi Muslim - and contribute as much as possible to my Jamat. My faith is a matter between me and my God. I am not into peripheral stuff like Nabuwat and other meaningless garbage. My parents on the other hand are very observant, but my entire clan has accepted my wife as one of their own (not their own wife like Sikhs do, but just a member of the clan), which she greatly appreciates. Only kidding about Sikhs to bring Bhatti Saab back into discussion.

What exactly is white? There are some of us who think we are white. If you really believe in all these distinctions then Greeks are not white. Turks are not white. Italians are not white. . . .

And Kulharee is right about one thing, racist or bigoted people do come in all colors. On this board, they are "brown."

I don't know where HP got the idea that Kulharee thought he was marrying a white woman, I don't get that in the article or the interacts. Kulharee, did you think you were marrying a white woman? If so, you were and are one big buddhu! And I have to say this, I am intrigued by the fact that your wife dissuaded you from converting to Orthodox Christianity. Either the church is not as much a part of their lives as most Greek-Americans I know, or they are more accepting than some Greek-Americans I know.

I don't know if your membership of Jamaat-Ahmaddiya was revoked, but if I remember correctly (I've been away from church for a while) your wife cannot receive sacraments such as communion. I was thinking about this earlier, but just because you are prohibited from fully worshipping in those institutions does not stop you from being who you are. . .or exposing your children to both of your faiths. :)

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Kulharee,

Did your inter-religious marriage also revoke your membership of Jamaat-Ahmaddiya? The JA did ban (albeit briefly) my father for marrying my mother - a shia.

HP you need a little lesson in history among other things. Greeks are more indigenous to their land than Turks, who happen to have come from Central Asia. Feel free to ask any thing you like. “Your dad�, you idiot, was used as a metaphor, meaning goneby days. Don’t pretend to be so thickheaded. Look at some of the filth written in discussion by some of these Desis that not even a dog will like to touch. Look at how Zeemax is so graphical about how his mother looks like and how anal she is? Do you have wise words for him? Bunch of morons. Try to go out and meet some white people, instead of sitting on your butt planning to conquer the world. It aint like that no more.

Feroz,

some people maybe mad at you for not following your religion. You did not rob your wife of her identity and pehchan. Your marriage was not yet another excuse for conversation.
Enjoyed this article.

Well Zee,
He was not aware of the fact that Greeks are not white before he got married. Coming from the district he came from, everything lighter than coal was white for him.

I know some guys who married Italian thinking that they married a white chick including one former PM of India.
Funny these guys would marry a Greek or an Italian thinking that they are marrying a white but would not merry a Moroccan or a Turk.

The acid test of whether one is white or not is in #145.

#150

See you are back to what you are. An abuser! Accept the reality that the only thing you can do is abuse people. Why was a need to bring my dad into this?

I think you are rank racist just because you think in your head that you are married to some white. Which is only your delusion as we know most of the Greeks in the present world are either of Turk ancestry or are mixed.


If this love is so color-blind, why are you staying here and not in Pakistan or even in Greek... They have beautiful Islands, prettier than Manhattan.

Let us put religion and culture aside
and talk about daughter and father relation[since iam not married it may be easy for me].This is an ancient disscusion even mentioned by Hommer.If father and daughter have a thing for each other and want to express thier love through sex whats wrong with it except for the reason of genetic diversification ?

HP – this is not Colonial India 1927 when your dad was serving high tea to his gora masters, this is 2008, and give up that colonial hangover. If you feel so inferior to white people, you will be treated as such. I have met most racist Desis (particularly in England) than I have met any other group of people (racist people also come in all colors), and I don’t need your abbaji’s permission to say so. I don’t know who is a bigger hypocrite, you or Masadi, at least he is open about his racist views and he left for his country, you meanwhile brag about how many girls served you alcohol in your Islamic Pakistan. Good going.

And Greeks think of themselves as Olive, they come in many colors - from blue eyed, to dark eyes and almost desi complexion (lot of blood heritage). But of course, I am married to the most beautiful Greek.

Re: # 147
i don't know about other greeks but, jennifer aniston is as white as they come she even has a figure of a greek goddes

Re: # 147
Vast majority of medeterranian people are half breed.I remember one of my jewish friend calling an italian friend of ours semi nigger.

Are Orthodox Greeks White? Can someone shed a light on their race. I don't think Creeks are white.

Scarlett expresses views that were common of the era. Some examples:
· "How stupid negroes were! They never thought of anything unless they were told." — Scarlett thinks to herself, after returning to Tara after the fall of Atlanta.
· "How dared they laugh, the black apes!...She'd like to have them all whipped until the blood ran down...What devils the Yankees were to set them free!" — Scarlett again thinking to herself, seeing free blacks after the war.
· However, she is kind to Pork, her father's trusted manservant. He tells Scarlett that if she were as nice to white people as she is to black, a lot more people would like her.
· She almost loses her temper when the Yankee women say they would never have a black nurse in their house and talk about Uncle Peter, Aunt Pittypat's servant, as if he were a mule.
Gone with the wind

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Okay, The question for all those who live here and merry white girls: How many of them tried to take their wives back to their own native country and how many succeeded?

Why is that they stay here and then claim racial parity in the West?
Asadi is right 90% of the white girls merry out of the community for one reason only. And that is they find it difficult to date or merry one in their own community. Now the reasons for that are obvious.

Most of the brown guys in the US used to merry for the Green Card and some got stuck with that.
Now no luck with that either.

The author of this article is a known abuser of people of other races but has no problem with the white race. This article is all about hypocrisy and to appear more acceptable to Whites. Just a cheap effort!

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Tahir saheb,

is low indeed.

and you didn't excuse the pun here ??? LoL

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Masadi (#95) writes: “With your rank racism, denigration of your own religion, nation and ethnicity, your kid probably looks down upon his father's kind and tries to be as white as possible- while the white man whose entire psyche is conditioned to look down upon the coloreds will look down upon him as a "half-breed"- even…�

Masadi, if you are any representation of either Islam or Desiness, then I will wish my kids to be whiter than Queen Elizabeth’s ass. You made me laugh. You always do. Thanks. I am surprised you haven’t yet lost your ass teeth by using it overtime.


Dost-Mittar Ji (#89), there are a lot of disparities in what Islam allows vs. what is practiced. Some Ahmadis would not stand behind a non-Ahmadi Mulla even to offer prayers.

Re: # 115
;)
Mr. Anil, how about another good name: Amr Bil Maroof (means: to promote good) alias 'Bill'?

Re: # 94
The relevent 'ideas' about daughters doing it to their father (and more) come from the Bible (the portions written by debauched priests)!

Sleep well.

Re: # 91
The bottom-line is (no pun), to go where no man has baldly gone before--namely, the butt tattoo of an interactor's spouse--is low indeed.

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... aaah you red flagged that post too re my statuesque 5'11" wife. Did it intrigue you in the first place when i told you that we could actually do it standing up while I'll probably need to carry a midget like you in my lap to have a good fit?

So when did I say it wasn't? You know of-course I wouldn't have your previous PM from a year ago ... unless I saved it like I save KaalChakra or Echoboom's posts. (rolling eyes wala)

For the amusement/exasperation of chowk:

Tampax's doctored exchange. Please note the date and time which is exactly today's date about 15 minutes ago when Tampax was challenged to produce proof of his claims:


Inbox | Compose New MessageMessage Center
Re: personal e-mail address
From: zeemax
To: neembu
Date: Apr 5, 2008 Sat 10:01 am
zeemax@hotmail.com
----------------
From: neembu
Date: Apr 5 09:44 am
Subject: personal e-mail address
tampax.
give me your personal e-mail address if you dare.

[ reply to this message | delete this message ]

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Message Center
personal e-mail address
From: neembu
To: zeemax
Date: Apr 5, 2008 Sat 09:44 am

tampax.
give me your personal e-mail address if you dare.

Reply:

zeemax@hotmail.com

Re: # 126
Tampax, as usual you make very little sense. Have you been ordering your mail brder wife to bring you whisky and bhang again...?

#125 Posted by neembu,

LoL. Ask your friends, Chowkstaff, whom you're fond of approaching all the time, to retrieve it.

Re: # 124

Tampax,

I have no recollection of sending a loser like yourself any correspondence. You are as significant to me as a gnat on a pile of horse droppings. And rather than contorting yourself into all kinds of self pleasuring maneuvers, kindly post this so called interact or stfu. thank you.

... it appears from your post that you did send me a Personal Message but you didn't ask for my e-mail address or private contact. Is my understanding correct?

#122 Posted by neembu,

So you didn't send me a Personal Message?

Re: # 120

Tampax,

No, I do not recall ever requesting any contact info from you-the thought is particularly naseauting. However, if you have proof, pretend to be a man and a human being with character and post it.

... go on ... say it. Did you or didn't you?

And, what was my response?

#118 Posted by neembu,

Didn't you send me a personal message asking for my e-mail address?

Is this a Jerry Springer show?

Tampax,

You are a zaleel, jhoota admi. Go shite up your own Depends on your own time.

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Re: # 75

Tahir sahib:

I am so glad my name is not "Anil Munkar".

Re: # 111

in the absence of any fair and responsive moderatorship on up, anonymous cyber harrassers will be treated like the haramzadey kuttay they are.

dost-mittar #89:

while those of abrahamic faiths are ahl-e-kitaab, it is a whole different matter what certain people decide when it comes to marriage, among other things.

neembu, do you have any substance other than red-flagging posts?

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Re: # 107

Tampax,

Most of my conversation are quite decent and that's because the conversants are qualified as such. Kindly refrain from promises you clearly cannot meet.

... in case you want to have a decent conversation, come to Connect and we can have it ... without any vile. That's a promise.

Re: # 104

Tampax,

An argument to what? Your ignorance? It is stupendous, no argument there.

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#102 Posted by neembu,

Yes I am doing exactly that. Do you have an argument? Please state it if you do.

wow, why am i not surprised by any of the responses here.

and masadi: give some of us a damned break about how the white man is conditioned to look down upon the black man, while all is well in the homeland. there are more than a few pakistanis who look down upon the black man, and until those pakistanis get off their high horse, thinking they are superior to the black man, and stop writing songs like "dekho goray ka zamana kabhi hoga na purana" the saying "people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" is apt here.

Re: # 85

Tampax,

Are you calling another person "trash"...? Is there no end to your self delusion and hypocrisy?

#98 Posted by Urstruly,

Urstruly, it is an'al munkir.

Thanks

#99 peonofthewest sahib: Those men in black helicopters from the Secret World Government of the Elite were inquiring about the whereabouts of Mr. Masadi sir. I gave them the wrong directions sir. I hope Mr. Masadi will be pleased, sir.

Re: # 95

masadi saab you are a very very paranoid man saab. do you hear voices too saab? that would be bad and i think you should see a doctor saab

Re: # 49 anil

The word "anil" is a conjunction, roughly equivaent to the english "from".

As a matter of fact correct word is only "an" part of anil which has a meaning of "from", "il" is a part of following word munkir meaning evil. So the correct phrase would have been "an ilmunkir". I was being lazy but not really. In Arabic lexicon most of the words are conjoined to give proper meaning so writing it as anilmunkir would have been correct, but I can't help my urdu.

Re: # 88
what i gather is that these jewish women either convert to islam or they are secular non-practising jews.

BTW fundamentalist jewish groups disaprove of these marriages strongly.

Re: # 90
as i said its only my personal observation there are some white professional women who are married to pakistani men, but they are few in numbers.

Kulharee writes " I hope and pray to my Pakistani God that he is respectful, responsible, and dependable to his friends.."

With your rank racism, denigration of your own religion, nation and ethnicity, your kid probably looks down upon his father's kind and tries to be as white as possible- while the white man whose entire psyche is conditioned to look down upon the coloreds will look down upon him as a "half-breed"- even though it is no longer politically or culturally correct to say so, the feelings of their heart have not changed and laws cannot change them when an intolerant white society with high segregation indices and job segmentation, not to mention the foreign adventures of the US elite (and your living in one of the most instiutionally racially discriminating countries)- I feel sorry for you and your child- he must have multiple complexes, acting as a peon of the West among the white man and a white man among the colored folk.....save yourself and your child, return to Lahore and live like a free man.....

#93 Posted by peonoftheeast on April 5, 2008 5:13:22 am

ali is the product of inbreeding..
once you work out the sordid details of fathers doing it with their daughters and sisters, it's hard to tell who's really who in his family..

just like kul's article is about marrying outside his race/religion, in ali's case, the article would be about someone in his family marrying outside the family...

Re: # 91

slyder saab, that argument goes only as far as explaining YOUR existence saab

"My own Masjid in London would politely turn down request for a Nikah service unless my fiancée converted to Islam"

This is must be Mirzaee theology.

#90 Posted by CreateAlpha on April 5, 2008 4:55:04 am
"This misperceptions of pakis that desis marry lower class white women has to be one of the stupidest things I have heard."

Then what explains the Harley tattoo in your wife's butt crack?

The stories of inter-racial or interfaith couples are indivdually unique. That is what makes it so interesting. This misperceptions of pakis that desis marry lower class white women has to be one of the stupidest things I have heard. It might be an entirely bradford/paki phenomenon. Sort of ghetto pakis like Tampax marrying their socioeconomic counterparts of another race. In america, the desis are not ghettoized and even pakis are better assimilated and you will find that most interfaith,inter racial marriages are among the well off/professional cadre. Where idiocy of religious mandates takes a backseat to raising kids with a world view far richer in experiences that come from the different backgrounds of their parents.

Kulhari:

A well written article on a very relevant topic. Any young desi boy or girl marrying outside their religion/race will benefit from reading your article.

"My own Masjid in London would politely turn down request for a Nikah service unless my fiancée converted to Islam"

Doesn't quran allow the marriage of a Muslim man with a woman of another abrahmic religion?

BTW, I was somehow under the impression that your spouse was jewish.

aslam644:

"Recently I read there are 100’s of jewish women in isreal married to arab men."

Does it have anything to do with the Jewish tradition of children following the religion of their mother?

#82 Posted by neembu on April 5, 2008 2:24:17 am


we are all educated and can read the Qur'an and Hadith ourselves.


and yet mosques are segregated...

so does this mean the separation is sanctioned by mo's book?

This is so brilliant that it deserves a repeat.

"Eh apni Qeythi hai naa Qeythy (Cathy), thori charas pya dyo, thori sharab pya dyo - bas khush rehndi ey!"

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Parshuram, this is a good piece...

...not your usual hatchet job!

# 82,

Why Abbassid alone? Even Mughals kept gori concubines in their harem. Some of them were given to gora diplomats for good time.

Re: # 65

It's so sad to see that the so called Muslims of this board are some of the most racist snd ignorant towards White and Black people. I'm sure this throw backs to the Abbassid Dynasty would have no problems with imprisoning a range of women in their harems and find a sura in the Qur'an to justify it. Unfortunately, those days are over and the chickens have come home to roost-and we no longer have to listen to this bullshit-we are all educated and can read the Qur'an and Hadith ourselves. We can also refute indefensible notions of bigotry and control.

Tampax's post is another example of the jahil frame of mind that participates in reverse racism. If only we could send Tampax to a Catholic school where the nuns and monks couldbeat him for even looking his usual crosseyed self and bakwasing about alcohol, sex and cigarrettes. I'd pay to see that. :)

Re: # 80 Tahir

Read the interacts below as well; they are all for your eyes matey!

I must say you do have one or two screws loose; perhaps I can get one of my colleagues to take a look at you and see if they can fine tune something?

Food for thought

Re: # 64
Poor white women, in trying to get that tan wind up getting cancer instead!

Re: # 66 "All wives finally become 'strange' if not estranged"

lagda ai tohaday naal badhi kuttay khwari hoee ai paaji!

Re: # 76; Tahir Sahib

I have been happily married for 11 years; thanks but no thanks for whatever was the insinuation.

Paaji, did someone step on your poochhal again today?

Re: # 52
Maulvi is from Mevlevi (Mawlawiyah, in Arabic) of Maulana Rumi. It is a wrong term. Down with this bunch, but then educated and gifted men must come forward! Are you one?

The Qur'an lays a lot of emphasis on using reason (aql).

Let's use it please.

Re: # 51

When you find your Western mate, you will remember your wish!

Enjoy the stimlus when it hits you.

Peace.

Re: # 49

Dear Nahi-Anil,

Nahi-Anil-Munkar means: Forbid what is evil! (Al-e-Imran: 104)

I hope your surname is not...?

I wonder what’s the figure for inter-religious marriages between hindus and muslims in India. Recently I read there are 100’s of jewish women in isreal married to arab men. In the UK some ethnic groups have a high marriage rates to white, but Pakistanis are lagging behind due to religious-cultural reasons. According to last census there are around 200k mixed south asian/white.

Re: # 47
You do put your two hands together to pray, don't you. THIS is what God calls 'mere clapping of the hands and play'.

Come to the Headbangers Ball now Mr. Mohar Ill-even.

#69 Posted by tahir,

Haha ... easy on hamidm2. He's my kaneez shaneez breeder .... !!!

Re: # 42
Dear Indu friend,

Who let you out so soon? It wasn't a Muslim who blew up Rajiv or shot Indra, was it?

Shaant ho ja moorakh.

Re: # 39
And who owns all the land that Muslims were blackmailed into selling to the Israelis?

Re: # 37

Dear Hamid shamid,

Is that how you refer to the Companions? 'Umar shumar'?

John shawn, Matthew shaththew, Mark shark, Luke shook....

Peace shees.

Re: # 36
The 'chosen people' for THAT era when they (for a while) followed God's (universal and not racial) commands.

If later Muslims (those who submit fully to God's Will) were called 'the best amongst all', it pointed to the same thing. Get it Alpha-Male?

Do some reading and comparison please. Not all interactors here are ignorant Muslims, although many attackers here are pseudo-liberal atheists or polytheists.

Peace.

Re: # 33
Dear Ham-Damn2,

Let us all know when you have finally converted (honorary, just like Marilyn Monroe) to Judaism and have been granted Israeli citizenship.

To point to OUR ills without doing anything about them--and worse, gloryfying Israel--is shameful.

What Mr. Naqshbandi is pointing at, I have witnessed a thousand times or more. Diluting races as a means to fix one's obsession with 'gori chamri' comes with a phenomenal price-tag.

Proverb: Kawwa chal hans ki chaal, aur apni bhi bhool gaya!

Peace

Re: # 28
Dear Banned Atom,

Are you sure this refers to 'NOT marrying strangers' wives'?

All wives finally become 'strange' if not estranged.

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White black or in between, whatever tickles one's fancy, as the beauty is in the eyes of beholder. In the good old US of A it has been observed & heard from black women specially when they have an adversarial conversation filled with envy, they would usually comment that, whats in white color, when white girls get a black mole they call it a beauty spot! now thats not untrue, poets backhome have abundantly written poetry such as "teray mukhray da kala kala till way" and others.
I have come across a few desi men in their 50's & 60's who when once upon a time they were charged up with their youthful spirits ended up marrying a white lady, and there is nothing wrong with that in my opinion although I did not commit such an act, but now after few decades when their children grew up they look back and regret their indulgence.
But then there are a few of those desis also who are married to white ladies and are quite content, off course they wont regret because they did all the right things from inception of their relationship to be worthy better halves of each other.
The principle matter is the intention of one getting involved in an inter-racial &/or inter-faith marriage, is it , the beauty, the appearance, the appeal, the lust or is it that love at first sight, or, were the two made for each other.
As you state in your article there has been many killings based on this very issue where people of one color felt insulted that their kind of person got married to a different color or faith although it has gone down however not quite totally and such sentiments and emotions are still present in today's society specially among the white supremacists where some consider any "colored" person to be inferior than themselves.
Conventionally among the people of Jewish faith the off-springs are to take mother's religion, i.e. if mother is Jewish the children are expected to be Jewish as well regardless of faith, in a manner that is the sign of a self-destructive society since most Jewish women marry Jewish men although there is still a good number of Jewish women who end up marrying a non-Jewish man. On the other hand the children of today specially in the western society don't necessarily follow the religion of parents while some go astray some reserve the right to chose their own once they have developed wisdom to examine various faiths therefore raising children by a given faith of parents does not necessarily have any serious influence.
While there is beauty in all colors and shades, I pretty much feel that our sub-continental sanwla salona complexion beats all other shades and grey-scale too.

with due regards for viewing pleasure of the wannabees

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cReHCdLBB5Y

injoy

If some body can help me I will like to picture of my cat and grace this pages.
She is 9 years old and her mother and fatherwere both white skinned like cats. I researched through books and looking at pictures. It is not deshi cat.My feeling is some big english officer my have brought her Grandparents on steamship. I my friend ( foreen resident) had visited and then she wrote researched it is " Short haired english Tabby".He send me that jat cat picture its english shart haired. I could not allow her to have children from some deshi cats so had operation.

Re: # 60; madani sahib; Re:(I said about my preference but people have different tastes ,my cat one is white pure like cotton or snow and other cats know that she is white and they like her most than other cats.)

paaji bus karo hun; hus hus ke vakhiyaan tut gaye'aan ne!!... There is some level of innocence and sincerity in how you put your views forward.....I just can't stop laughing though!!

Khuda Hafiz for now sir...

# 55. 56 Please donot put blinds. Every man and women wants to be white. POWDER means white , no woman like to put coal dust on them. Look all important women they will not come out skin foundation and billions of rupees of remedies.Look matrimonial pages. Nothing wrong to feelwhith bright color heaven fullofhoney and milk flowing in rivers all white while hell is dark. Even BB was was white as she appeared due to over painting and she did toimpress herself and other AWAM.Sonyji Gandhili and BB had attactrion duetotheir cream color. They would not have that power and love of people if they were dark or africans.
I said about my preference but people have different tastes ,my cat one is white pure like cotton or snow and other cats know that she is white and they like her most than other cats.
No you lived there what My friend Masadi wrote isright or wrong most desi marry fat white and they are generally less educated. Now color isnot everything alsoaltafbhai is almost caoldarkbut he is king of heart of karachi.
Dark people are not bad just color of them is dark nothing more nothing less. I am told there some movie (I donot see them) "Hum hay kale Phir bhi Dilwale".
All heronies and heros of desh are white and bad people are additinally potrayed dark to add "masala".Now theseindinan producers know what people want.

#58 akcheema: I read his first couple of lines - this is the way he always is - color of skin, ethnicities, and so forth. He is an older gentleman, so I suppose i should not get mad at him too much.

Have a good night (or day or whatever it is in Australia).

Re: # 57tahmed;

been extremely busy thanks. Story of my life....

read on this loonie's (madani) interact though; very enlightening!

How's business Dr Cheema?

mr. madani: and on reading a bit further, i see you are superior to american blacks. rest assured that the only thing lower than an mqm racist like you is one of these hindutva monkeys on chowk. So dont dare insult normal people by acting superior to them, you damned mqm racist!!

Re: # 53; madani (color does not matter but for family it matters. If man marries white is improvement but what happens if man marries dark colored african in usa.It can be problem for parents and brothers and sisters to be associated with africans etc.

what a load of bollocks, to put it in the vernacular for your benefit!

Mr Madani: Why are you so concerned about color complexion? Unless your color is deep green (in which case you need to see a doctor), the color of your skin should be the least of your concerns.

It is always good to upgrade color complexion. One can not change color of skin upit helps to see children having more fair color.
Love is blind so color does not matter but for family it matters. If man marries white is improvement but what happens if man marries dark colored african in usa.It can be problem for parents and brothers and sisters to be associated with africans etc.
I have no objection to our people upgrading color but opposed to go down. It is pathos many children even with nice white mother just take color from father.
It is hard on man all time. Now we know and famalier with sad sorroful tragedy of Othello and lady Desdimona. People are mean minded and shallow and will look at couple and say look at miserable woman she has married dark deshi etc comments.
This type of marriage has advantages as children lookwhite and demand if girls and helps father tomarry them off with out spending much money. ( marriage market white women are gone like IPO )
Now there are someproblems with white women.They are all right up after some time they suddenly good very old and husband starts looking as younger brother. They get bone loss and they get too fat as they keep on eating very neutriuous food and they loose charm. While deshi women may look dark but they are strong like black buffallows strong also they donot divorce and protect husband.And they willnot marry ifman dies.
Now women has advantage over man in choosing partner. Most deshis are little overgrown by age doing masters etc. And good women from deshi marriage market are gone already when he hits for bride late commers are always at tremendious disadvantage. Also it takes man to adjust self valuation and it is cruel and mirror image is stark.Our desi hero is 27 and looking for beautiful,able,conservative but modern and tall and very fair to match his image of american white man. He wastes 3 years rejecting nice women/girls for not differential toeyes ofman,too DARK , has not kept figure etc.Then women start rejectibg him for being too old, Dark and fat and overeducated fool etc. Then these many evil white women who are ambituious not so good looking and reject in dating market are waiting with all charms.And then desi man is captured and he compromises all for marriage sake ,love is concept at age of 32 is old past glory.
I am for color upgrading ( down grading just wrong) if white lady is beautiful really . Man should take test blind test. If you feel if lady was dark as in desi and she will stunning then color mixing is ok.
If lady is devorced walk away if she has children then start running Toba Toba its bomb . Divorced women are romantic by nature and they always feel next attempt will they will get real love. Divorce is habit of romantic people.
Desi is generally man educated he is master degree if white woman is not master then donot marry.
Marry in proper status just like Punji Munda is not going to marry Kumbhar.
Formost family it is great loss though they love child so they donot show it. So hope fully lady becomes muslim and starts waeing modest dress and children attend mosque and not church or other false religions. It is loss as they willnever be pakistani nationalist orbeliever in basic principles of pakistan formation tnt etc. It loss to country and religion as they will never be good muslims or ready to fight for rightous ways.
Actually people should marry before they complete college as those love birds lookgood but once they start doing job the girls start looking woman and man looks mature to be love bird. But now days it is bad fashion not to marry but date even in karachi.Now people like me are against such things we willlike dating after marriage but we told as old reactionaries and obstacle to lafangas is tragedies.
Also desiman should be aware you can not fathom women when you are in love those white women are not. Women are very calculating and accounting oriented they lookat man as possible father to children, as provider of food and home,and ifman will take care of children if she dies,if he will care in old age and marrying him ismore beneficial than other Mr X. So women / white are not love ,no women are they are complex calculating machine and they little down points for color but they all add. While man is crazy romantic and and strange ideas of love ( problems of reading poems and love stories etc) and his problem is only visual and when she laughs he feels like child. o forgets about education ,cultural back ground ,intelligence and color complex dazzles ( najarene bhi kam kiya n khawb ka- mr. Galib) and he is caught.That is problem sowe old are against love marriages.
Any way if onelike white woman be strength for them,its their life and let us best luck.

But one should be careful not marry on southside due to color. I read Mr.Masadi had remarked most white women marry desi are fat. Also they less educated ?If this true then its exploitation being equalone should marry white for future generation.

I have no good understanding of white people sojust these arespecualtions ofmr.Madaninothing morenothing less.
Good day morning.

Over the past almost 5 decades, I have seen four generations of pakistani-foreign marriages. In all cases they have worked out very well. All this talk of different cultures, religion and so forth has been as much irrelevant bs as it is on chowk where those with too much time rant about them.

As for the maulvi - they are not muslims. And same for those who give up their God-given brains and look to maulvis for "guidance". Simple as that.

Re: # 50,ana; "Go figure! It is harder when families put pressure on a couple, and it does not seem like that is the case with you."

Pressures are always there under these circumstances. Sometimes one has to have some moral courage to rise above them too. It doesn't hurt to, now and again, stand up for what one believes to be true. Otherwise it is quite easy to waste one's life seeking other's approval all the time.

One of the main reason for not being able to challenge silly traditionalism is this fear; once one takes the plunge, the rest follows. It can also prove to be a test of character too; I know where I'd stand when it comes to that.

One of the strongest arguments one hears under the circumstances is that of a 'lack of longevity' of relationships in the west especially. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the main reason relationships survive for longer in our society is the inferior status of the female partner; they are groomed all their lives for one thing (well over 95% of the time) only; how to be good wives and mothers. With 'joint family' living, again they are far outnumbered and simply don't stand a chance. If one party accepts everything thrown at them without question, of course there are less likely to be issues of divorce; besides, what exactly would be the status of a divorced woman in Pakistan (before somone jumps in, I am talking of the 'real' Pakistan that represents 98% of the population and not a previlaged few who tend to try to maintain this easygoing, liberal image in the west!

For me, I'd rather have an equal partnership with my wife (I think we do for the most part!). The girls I knew from Pakistan were at times far too accommodating and flexible; if anything, that put me off a bit. I like to be appropriately challenged at times; it is stimulating and keeps one on one's toes!

#44: oh wait, you did write about faith-blind love, the title threw me off!!!

It is really great that you can meet the challenges that an inter-faith relationship presents. I was not able to do that in my own relationship with a desi man, and we are both Christian except that he's Catholic and I am not. Go figure! It is harder when families put pressure on a couple, and it does not seem like that is the case with you.

Re: # 32

Urstruly sahib:

"wa hahi anil munkir"

What does "anil" mean in the above, just curious?

Well written (with a couple of his usual humour).

As for God of Muslims and Jews (or for that matter Christians) it's one and the same. The fact was confimred by the King of Arabia recently (with the concurrence of Wahabi family).

Conservative Muslims deny that they glorify/worship Jewish prophets/figures starting with Abraham, Musa, Isa and horrible of all the most famous Jewish King David (as Dawood).

The only Muslim prophet was Muhammed. Rest of them were Jews.

++

Corss-pollination had to take place in this world. Arabs did it big time on Mesopotamians & Egyptians to begin with followed by campaigns in northern Africa. Europeans did in South America, Oz & NZ.

I always wonder why arabs conquered Sindh but refused to hybridise our peoples? :(
Persians helped us later on as a consolation.


++

I met a Bangaldeshi Muslim who married a Russian Jew.They live in Israel. He speaks fluent Russian and German. His views on Islam are liberal and he thinks that Palestenians make a mountain outta molehill (regular clashes etc.,)!?!?!

Why is urstruly crying on behalf of arabs? What does he, a self-proclaimed "suryavanshi rajput", have common with bedouins, except for head-banging five times a day?

Dear Feroz Qutubshai,
My apologies that my humble quote
"The book of Nehemiah

13:27: Shall we then hearken unto you to do all this great evil, to transgress against our God in marrying strange wives."

has resulted in arab-israeli skirmish.
#32
Brother Urstruly Sahib,
What Quran says generally is also present in Old Testament, Quran is an extract/ and or an extension from OT with a few bells and whistles added for the locals(arabs).
When the question of "who is correct?" or which abrahamic faiths is correct, is where I deviate, cause IMHO it doesnt matter, its the message that one should pay attention too, rather than follow a parable of lets say David and how he slew the philistine also mentioned in Quran literally, and go one slewing philistinnes and israelites. Or take a Jihadi phrase written for a specific time in Quran for a specific event and apply it in our daily lives and call for jihad actually instigating it on almost all occasions.

As far as Jews practicing superiority or not getting into marriages outside of their faith is practiced in other faiths and cultures to this day. Bhorays in Karachi tend to marry within their own circles, Druze or north iraq Kurds are another example (recently a girl was lynched if you remember). Muslims tend to stay within their own faith and if caught in an inter-religion marriage to convert or atleast its encouraged. I believe what Feroz Qutubshai is trying to hilight is that winds of changes are blowing. He wants to sound like Al Gore the alarmist and wants people to take action.
Peace

Kul,

A very good article. Keep it up....

Kulharee,

A very good article. Now you need to write one about faith-blind love, or someone does. :)

If Gandhi is Father (of india nation)then he does Not give permission to his children to marry 'ouside'....

some of his opinion Sadna has denied but here it is Gandhi on interracial marriage and racial equality:

“We believe as much in the purity of race as we think they do, only we believe that they would best serve these interests, which are as dear to us as to them, by advocating the purity of all races, and not one alone. We believe also that the white race of South Africa should be the predominating race.�

Indian Opinion, Sep. 24, 1903

The petition dwells upon “the commingling of the Coloured and white races�. May we inform the members of the conference that, so far as the British Indians are concerned, such a thing is practically unknown? If there is one thing which the Indian cherishes more than any other, it is the purity of type.

Indian Opinion Dec. 24, 1903


On the other hand the 'new ' gandhis

its no surprise that Gandhi's don't believe in marrying with there own gujju kind, . They always seem to look elsewhere .

Well I was just reading that Rahul Gandhi is now interested in marrying a hispanic women who is also studying in a University in England (Oxford i think). He is currently 39 years old is mostly likely to run the congress after Manmohan Singh finishes his term. Surprisingly Sonia Gandhi is not encouraging the hispanic women from marrying her son, because of her bad experiences!!!

So its already happened before that a foreigner is running things in india (Sonia Gandhi), but what is the probablity that it will happen once again??? Gandhi's are also known to be assisinated so probablity is high that a Rahul Gandhi can be assisinated by islamic terrorists (lol). So chances are there that his hispanic wife can become another powerful figure. I swear if another foreiner comes into power than I am removing my citizenship status!!! rather have an indian muslim as the prime minster of india than some foreigner.

#36 Posted by CreateAlpha on April 4, 2008 9:37:45 am


but the rest of the world thinks Jews are the chosen people


pakis are allah's chosen muslims...allah's jews, if you will..

23 Posted by Naqshbandi on April 4, 2008 6:02:54 am


for example a paki marries a chinese girl


The kid will get straight As, play the violin and go on to be a suicide bomber..

Re: # 39

Lets ask Ban ki Moon. Lately he has been whining profusely that he and his organization are a honest broker.

Re: # 38

who owns the jewish and christian lands in saudi arabia ?

Re: # 37

Perhaps it had to do with the senseless massacres of Arabs that Jewish settlers started doing right after the end of WWII and stealing Arab lands?

Re: # 34

urstruly,


... i am not talking about omar shumar, i am talking about the jordanians in 1967 when jerusalem was finally liberated

Mohammed's quran can say whatever it wants...but the rest of the world thinks Jews are the chosen people for abraham's god. Nothing you can do about it but let the sores on your leaky behind fester

Re: # 34

I am referring to lebanon

Re: # 33

"and let's not forget that when the muslims had control over jerusalem jews were banned from praying at the wailing wall which is all that is left of their temple which is buried under a monstrous mosque .... "

This is a white lie. The fact is that when Calph Omar (RA) conquered Jerusalem, it was the 500th year that Jews were forbidden to enter the Holy City. Muslims were the first to allow them in after centuries. The hetered of Muslims is one thing but being at least honmest to historical truths is another thing.

The very reason Arabs don't vote, (as if it is some kind of Divine mandate) is because the corrupt ruling elite like yourself who is subjugating them. It is the progeny of those who sold Muslims to the western colonial aggression. last time I checked the Israeli neghbor was fuctional democracy until your peo interfered into it caused it to be a failed state.

Re: # 29

urstruly,

... the only arabs who have a right to vote are the million or so who are citizens of israel ........ go figure

....... according to my friend tehsin who just came back from a vacation in israel and jordan, the arabs are like the ghetto blacks in america ..... he did not see any lines or queues at the check points and the only time he was harassed by anyone was by fellow moslems at aqsa who barred the women of his family from entering because of 'improper' islamic attire ...... and let's not forget that when the muslims had control over jerusalem jews were banned from praying at the wailing wall which is all that is left of their temple which is buried under a monstrous mosque ....

..... as i have always said, israel is a shining beacon of light in that wasteland of igonorance ......

Re: # 30

The blessing that Qura'n promises is not a blank chek but it is conditional. The number one condition to earn this blessing is how much one as individual and as a group acts upon the "amr nil ma'aroof, wa hahi anil munkir" (that is, call others towards good and stop them from evil). This is what Qura'n contends against Jewish contention of the "chosen people"; Qura'n stipulates that it is not the accident of birth but acting on above mentioned criteria that makes someone chosen people.

Qura'n also says that not all people of the book are alike; among them are those who wake up in the wee hours of the night and prostrate before their Creator. They accept only One God and fear noone but Him.(The Cow 2).

Now look at Jews, what they have done. They have turned Rabb-ul-Aalmeen (God of universe) into God of Jews. They don't care if a group people worship idols or worship people like themselves (save Jesus (pbuh), with whom they have a different beef)

Bani Israel is derived from Jacob(Yaquub)..aka known as Israel(Fight with (Isra) El (god)) who was son of Isaac who in turn was son of Abraham.

#28 so Quran rejects Bani Israel? Then why pray 5 times a day.. Allaahumma salli 'alaa Muhammadin wa 'alaa ali Muhammadin
Kamaa sallaita 'alaa Ibraaheema wa 'alaa ali Ibraaheema
Innaka hameedun Majeed
Alaahumma baarik 'ala Muhammadin wa 'alaa ali Muhammadin
Kamaa baarakta 'alaa Ibraaheema wa 'alaa ali Ibraaheema
Innaka hameedun Majeed.

O Allah, bless our Muhammad and the people of Muhammad;
As you have blessed Abraham and the people of Abraham.
Surely you are the Praiseworthy, the Glorious.
O Allah, be gracious unto Muhammad and the people of Muhammad;
As you were gracious unto Abraham and the people of Abraham.
Surely you are the Praiseworthy, the Glorious.

Why bless a race that quran rejects?

Re: # 28

Racial superiority is the core value of Judaism. This is one of the long list of charges which Qura'n has categorically laid down against them. It is because of their own racism they brought upon themselves the tragedy of holocaust. No lesson learned there again and they have put a whole nation into two concentartion camps called Gaza and west bank.

Since Qura'n rejects the idea of any kind of racism based on accident of birth, it is a safe bet to assume that this particular verse of Nehmiah is man made corruption in the holy text.

The book of Nehemiah

13:27: Shall we then hearken unto you to do all this great evil, to transgress against our God in marrying strange wives.

just a question-i don't see any of the pakistani guys here complaining about the food, language, traditions of pathani/up/kosovo muslim women-although they can be arguably "different" from the culture of these pakistani guys...there's no "dissonance" of identity in those cases?

Re: # 19

wow.

Naqshay, does your sister in law make Chow Mein Baryani and Lo Mein KaRahi Gosht?

Why can’t kids learn to speak all these languages? Don’t underestimate their ability to be all. They will surprise you. One is not loosing racial purity but is creating new races. Surely there is beauty in diversity. Thoroughbreds come in many colors (I think Allama Iqbal said that to some Colonial master).

Cheema Sahib, my thoughts exactly.

Re: # 23; Naqshbandi Sahib, "beauty in diversity."

Regarding your concerns for your nephews/neices, they will grow up to be (hopefully) mature and productive human beings if they get a good upbringing.

Regarding language; again depends how one defines the 'purpose' of language in the first place. If it is for communication (as I believe it is intended), then they should grow up speaking the language (at least) of the country they grow up in. If your brother and bhabi can teach them their own native tongues as well, that would be a bonus, I reckon.

Regarding the question of 'nationality', the level of 'diversity' would depend on if you are talking about building a human society or planning to open a zoo.

for example a paki marries a chinese girl (like my brother) -- will his kids be pakistani/chinese/british? will they speak urdu/panjabi/english or chinese as a first language? i honestly think it causes too many problems.

beauty in diversity.

"i can seen of inter-racial/inter-cultural/inter-religious marriages is that
any offspring of such unions lose their racial/cultural/religious purity."

there is no such thing as racial/cultural/religious purity, surely you know that

Urstruly #4 {"Is the author of this article same hateful little character who spares no effort insulting other people's religioin and cultural values. Is he the same guttermouth? "}

Urs,
YES.

the main disadvantage i can seen of inter-racial/inter-cultural/inter-religious marriages is that
any offspring of such unions lose their racial/cultural/religious purity. if that is not an issue for you--and for many people it is increasingly not--then i see no problem with it.

nice article, i think the key to the longevity and health of interracial marriages is balance, you and your wife have a very healthy and respectful outlook to both your cultures and religions, the dynamics at home are not skewed in one direction

i knew one interracial couple in our extended family, unfortunately it ended up in divorce, mainly due to the fact that the husband (a pakistani) made his gori wife, convert, change her name, her dress, forced her to make desi food, alienated her from her family and friends.... and she let him.... in the first five years of marriage she tolerated it, the second five she tolerated it for her kids, and one day she just left him and her kids, married her high school sweetheart

good one. insightful and funny.

Feroz Sahib,

An absolute breath of fresh air sir. A well presented case for promotion of love and understanding across man made divides of race, color, nationalities and religions.

Cheers

Naksh yaar, the goal ultimately is to wipe folks that think like you out.keep a close eye on ur kids...they might end up joining the fastest growing religion in the world..the religion of no religion

createalpha,

agreed-just check out the marriage announcements in the new york times. and agreed that middle and upper class desis can be peculiarly racist

Aslam, where did you get this idea that western girls who marry desis are from the bottom of the socioeconomic strata? If anything, there is more racism in middle/lower middle class than in upper classes (where people tend to be more educated, well travelled, and usually devoid of idiotic racial trappings)

Kul, great article. Although, I am disappointed you didn't ask for my Jeter quote. "In another 200 years, with the amount of interracial fking that is going on, most americans would look like Derek Jeter"

naqs sahib,

because you of course are 100% pukka Muslim Pakistani...? B)

Just a point of clarification kunkil:

biracial children were a major part of the sexual assault of white slaveowners on African American enslaved women. These children by law were codified as "Black" and subject to subsequent race based policy.

very interesting...although i have no personal problem with inter-racial marriages, i would draw the line at inter-religious marriages as i think it leads to too many problems and the kids, in my experience, end up in neither religion. 'na idhar kay rahe hum, na udhar kay rahe ham'.

that despite islam giving permission for us to marry people of the book.

i'm no racist but i think everyone should stick to their own otherwise we'll end up with a brownish mush! :p

Re: # 4
The answer is YES!

That's why I'm against this pseudonym business. Grown men should never hide behind fake identities or their mothers' skirts.

Regards to all the 'real things' on CHOWK.

Interesting reviews. Urstruly, I have no misgivings about my partiality, or my guttermouth. Questioning idiosyncrasies are not meant to be taken as disrespect. As I age gracelessly, I will try to work on my stupidity. I value your honest feedback.

nice discussion of interracial, interfaith marriages based on mutual respect and tolerance.

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Nice statistics, please make sure that the %s add to 100 though.

yar kulharee, look at the bright side..at least the kids did not have the standard ABCD issues (talk to neembu if you dont know what they are). congratulations, hope they take some revenge by marrying a madrassi girl and a turki gir.

Is the author of this article same hateful little character who spares no effort insulting other people's religioin and cultural values. Is he the same guttermouth?

One of the best articles I've read on Chowk in a very long time!

Ciao

There is one downside to the inter-racial marriage and that is DESIS could be bred out eventually. The other thing I’ve observed is western girls who marry desis men are mostly from the bottom strata of society, very few are from middle class or professional background. Looking at it from the positive side inter-racial marriages would promote racial harmony and there would be less racial tension in the future.

This has to be by far one of the most pertinent and well timed articles on chowk - and it is from my wantage point a pretty timeless one.

It is great that you have tackled the issues and writen about these issues.

the questions you ask,
.Where to live? Often involving decisions for Country, City, Neighborhood
- What or if any religion to raise kids in
- What languages to teach them
- What names to give them
-What obligatory and customary cultural and religious rituals to follow
-How to make children comfortable in their dual identity
-How to find a balance in habitually conflicting ideals (e.g., privacy, individuality, etc.)


rethorical or otherwise are cruciall and ones which are universal.

Let us see what happens ....