Color-Blind Love

Dear brothers in faith,

Don't let CHOWK's new look fool you into thinking that some 'new management' has taken over and that things will suddenly improve. If they do at all, let it be known that I have repeatedly requested CHOWK editors to MODERATE and control the RAW-agents who have nothing better to do than analyse Pakistani news and then stoop to abusing Islam and the Prophets by pretending to be interacters!

There is deathly silence at the editor's desk. Surprised? Not only this, they are guilty of killing quite a few of my articles over the years! I beleive, they still have not received the 'security clearance' to publish them.

One door closes but many others will open. CHOWK is not the final frontier; that it has degenerated into a hate-site should not come as a surprise to those who have turned it into one.

One evening's worth of search reveals that these anti-Islam half-humans will not reform. They are nicely linked; most 'kufr' is anyway. That goodnes stands squabbling amongst itself is a sad situation and I expect that born-Muslim interacters here will remember who they are, where they come from, and where they might be headed if they join hands with 'highly-educated satans'.

Indeed, the Qur'an calls all such persons who lapse into utter unbelief 'monkeys' and 'pigs'. Why? Because the outward behaviour and moral decadence begins to resemble that of such animals.

I must thank those who stood up for me, and those who even thought of doing the same but were afraid of being ridiculed or abused.

There are three kinds of men in this world; fighters, collaborators, and traitors.

See where you fit!

Regards.

Re: # 351 Good Morning Mr. Kulharee.Thanks for telling me of coming event.It will be god sent opportunity listen to Pt.Jasraj. After untimely departure of Amirkhan, Bade Gulam aliKhan and now by old age joshi is resting, major laod is carried by Pt. Jasraj as guiding light and teacher.At this time like elder man with wisdom in music he is leading light. He is extremely talented and so much composition. It is heartening to know people like yourself ,care and go for concerts to support great tradition with reverence. I thank people like you as you support music by action. Soon it will be hard to find many listeners. Our music is sublime and subtle and it takes time to even to start realiazing the depth as it is intelluctual.There is major science behind and only technical way one can understand but it can not be good music,when technician and artist of great talent come together a great music starts. At highest level its spritual distillation a amalgation of rivers of emotion, Imagination ( Khayal is very appropriate world not only for Khayal singing but any great raga presentation) and construction.Pundit Jasraj is on throshould of that stage.
Again thanks for supporting artists by action.
Now this Saint John theatere is England or USA . I am confused are you in usa or England.
I am greateful to you and somepeople have been nasty but you kept composed yourself.
Now evolution business it strikes to my mind some areas produce evolve great masters. A small area has given Pt. Joshi, Kumar Gandharva , mrs Gangubai Hangal,Basav Rajguru ,Malikkarjun Mansoor and teacternumber 2 and 3 Mahadev Kund golkar. May be that all earth ,air water id different. ( Mr.Venketesh Kumar a younger with good music is from same area? orMrs laxmiShanker ?)
Pt Jasraj is equally great teacher and he spends hours every day teaching students. Under his guidence great artist is S. Abhykor ( something like that) very sweet voice with great artistic excellence.
Sorry if I wrote in earlier responses you can forgive me.
I am happy some people even after departure from home land enjoy culture it is tough as to enjoy culture one needs tobe cultured.
Good day every body.

Madani Sahib, Pundit Jasraj will be at all-nite concert (may 11)at St. John the Divine. I haven’t missed an all-nit for over 10 years. This year’s line up is phenomenal. I hope to see you there.

Thanks. Person who does not want to be named sent the bandish.
MaruBihag ,Drut Trital Composer Pt.Jasraj

Man Bhavan Aayori Sajaniya
Zanak Rahi Mori Payalia(N)
Preet Piyaki jagi Jiyare
Zanak Rahi mori Payaliya

Probably Pt Jasraj may have done most composition in modern times than any other and not being old there will lot more composition in future.

Now back to our kala gora stuff.
Thanks whole heartedly. ( This olace lot tolearn than just abuseand relieve tensions)

peon sahib: i used to go to bangladesh sahib. i loved the peoples there sahib (like banglabandhu, God rest his secessionis soul, used to say "i loves my pipple, my pipples loves me"). so dont wish them ill, sahib.

dullabhatti (344)

Have you come across grown gora Sikhs yet where you live? I remember the first time my father saw one of those papajis, he was shocked! OdheyaaN Punjabi da pata naeeN. I think you should forget about the goray kids, and focus on the afreekis and the cheenis. Oh, and while you're at it, on the aliens like the vulcans, and klingons and bajorans. :D

Re: # 342

tahmeedi saab, have you got rid of all those Baangladaishis saab?

Re: # 341
Hello dear Kulharee
No not at all, I used those examples only to exemplify the failures of some of the people most successful in many other arenas of life other than the battlefield of their very own households.
I certainly do not mean to voice against the inter-faith or inter-racial marriages, as a matter of fact Islam does encourage inter-cultural, inter-ethnic and inter-racial marriages, but what I am attempting to focus on is immature decisions by people who cant live together in a marriage that they entered due to some worldly attraction or appeal and later come to find that they were not a good match.
As a father I have always encouraged my children to marry by their choice as I don't believe in imposing my proposal for anyone's marriage, I am very much against "arranged" marriages too and what I use as a term instead is "assisted" marriage, even with my own son's and daughter I am very open to hear from them if they have made a choice and if I can assist them and be a part to further with their choice of marriage. Alhamdulillah two of my children are married and I fully permitted them to select and approve their life-mates.
However I admonish them at the onset that they should give their selection a serious thought as the most disliked one thing by Allah SWT among which that HE has lawfully allowed is divorce, so they should be prepared to negotiate and resolve among themselves when they have differences and should not allow spousal differences to become a nuclear war. Alhamdulillah I have a daughter in-law and a son in-law who both have same love for me that my children.
I would not even want to discuss Tahira & Bukhari, its not worth the time and effort.
Hope my explanation clarifies my position on this matter.
Regards

Re: # 343
Hi ana
The examples I use are strictly of failures while I personally am not aware of success stories, oh well I should not say that because yes I do know of real successful that are not stories, at least 3 of them, I know of a Pakistani physician a professor of medicine who has a very good relationship with his Danish wife, I know of another Pakistani who married a German lady and they are like two people and one soul and a third one also a Pakistani Geologist who is married to a Hawaiian lady and again they both were meant for each other as I see it.
All three of these gentlemen that I know personally not only married these ladies because of the charm or appeal but they also contributed positively towards showing the right path to the ladies while the ladies who I would say really loved their life partners learned and understood from them and went to the extent of adopting their faith in real live terms.
Similarly one of my cousin's son who is not anywhere quite as steadfast as the above three gentlemen but God paired him with an American lady of great morals, she lives like she was brought up in the sub-continent when it comes to submission to her silly husband while she is a very highly educated professional herself, so this is love for real.
Like you said in your comments that what attracts you towards marrying a lady is it her looks, her wealth, her fame the green-card or some other worldly attraction you have.
Not implying to be a mullah but I was listening once to a lecture where the scholar mentioned that when you migrate you receive as a result what intention you held within, he resembled migration from one place to another with, migration from one state to another, i.e. going from the state of being single to a married state would also be considered migration, and what you internally wish, is what you receive. This is similar to "one's deeds are dependent on their intentions", if one's intentions are clean, the outcome will also be favorable.
You are right that there are numerous examples of failures of marriages within people of our very own culture & religion.
Sometimes I am amazed when watching Pakistani dramas of today as to how easily divorce & separation is considered.
The challenges in an interfaith and/or inter-racial marriage a lot more than the glamor of being married and it takes a great deal of steadfastness on part of both spouses to make it work.
The reason I noted those failed marriages is not to be negative about interfaith or inter-racial marriages but to use those examples of some of the most successful individuals who failed to negotiate their very own household's integrity.

piyare Qutabudin Kulharee jiyo, you have good kids and a very nice woman as your wife..say my hello to pahbi ji. sometimes I think you stole someone's kids and wife...par chalo..I am on your side in this crime...I am happy for you.

sometimes I think about adopting a gora and a kala kid and rbing them up as sikhs with good punjabi speaking skills, just for a social experiment.:-)

Kulharee,

Race and/or faith can be a factor in divorce, but the examples that Zuber gives do not equal failure in such relationships. You give good examples of marriages that did work in spite of the challenges that must have existed in those as well. And in pointing out marriages that do not work within our own faith, or people, there is an important ingredient missing: that word is part of your title.

This dialogue really is not about those people who marry for green cards, or celebrities who are egotistical idiots, or people who think they've done something special because oh my gawd, gori nuN phansaleya, in my humble opinion. This is about the possibilities of different cultures and different faiths uniting in love and marriage, and the challenges that come with that, and compromises.

Kulharee, beginning your article with Obama's being of mixed ethnicity is interesting because his parents' marriage ended up not working, and Obama has had to find a fine balance in being multiracial. Whether he has found it is something that certain people from both "races" are questioning.

Anyway, we can go on arguing about what the white man has done to us, what we have done to each other, those of us who have seen these marriages work, or come from unions of different faiths and cultures (even poor vs. rich within an ethnicity are different "cultures") can appreciate more than a few points in this article, its detractors aside.

kulharee sahib #334: Alls well that ends well.
on #341 i agree - like i mentioned earlier on this board, some of the most successful marriages i have seen (and this is across 4 generations now!) have been between paksitanis and foreigners.

and i just learnt the other day of this fellow who used to be in school in pakistan with me who was married to a pakistani, spent his whole life in pakistan, and now the wife finally decided she had had enough of him and has taken off with his best friend. (no longer best friend, i guess). So all this talk of cultural problems is bs.

Izuber, do you think race or faith have to do anything with divorce? You are talking about Imran Khan, his marriage would have ended in a divorce even if he had married his own grandmother. The guy is an idiot. Arent there notable Pakistanis such as Faiz Ahmad Faiz, and Feroz Khan Noon, and many more successful interracial marriages, the marriages that will put any marriage to shame. Then there are people like Mustafa Khar who married at least 6 women (slept with god know how many other), divorced each, and all his own race. You must also have heard of Tahira Sayed and how he divorced his wife Naeem Bokhari? And they were both Sayed, directly descended from Hazrat Mohammad Salawasalm Elehe Salam? Do you think that Pakistanis should stick to their own kind, because it is their race(s) that have trouble getting along with non-muslim outsiders. What do you think?

The most important and significant example of failure of such inter-racial relationship (1) Imran Khan & aunt Jemima (2)Princess Di & the egyptian playboy.
The next one coming up to be another legendary one is famous fast baller who is barred from Pak Cricket team I dont even want to name him.
Interfaith marriage the one most important example of that was that of Qaid E Azam Mohammed Ali Jinnah and a very sad one too.

Kul yaar, I wore islamic black at my wedding.

I hear tampax wrapped his ammi head to toe with the dhaaga that sticks out of his ass. his ammi became a mummy. :-)

Alphay, I wore a parrot green polyester 3 piece suit from Marks and Spenser, for something that Reja-Md will be proud of me. I hope you also wore something too at yours.

Look at poor Tempax, he ended up marrying his mommy.

#334/335

There's no end to how far and how long the cockroaches will run to be in gora country.

Abey qadiani, you will all be caught at one time or another and beheaded like the Banu Quraiza and thrown in the ditch - headless.

Remember that.

(I spelt Banu Quraiza in caps because they had courage ... they refused the terms and preferred to die. You and your ilk, do not have courage. That's why I don't use caps for qadianis. You will run)

Kulharee, what did you wear at your wedding? Bell bottoms?

So, to make my wife a temporary resident, we found a brief job for her as a “consultant” hired overseas, which allowed her to be eligible to be married to someone who had the residency privileges, which I did back then. This happened after she had finished her master’s and was no longer a UK resident. Long friggin story.

T Saab (332), I was a young impressionable little jerk freshly in love not knowing what I was doing. Now I know better. However, it worked out for better in the end. There were some bureaucratic hurdles that we wanted to overcome, therefore we approached the churches and mosques. In the late 80s, unless you were one of commonwealth, or EU, it was hard to get registered (at the registry) in England as a couple. We could have gone to New York (get married there, and then bring my American wife to England easily, but it was not possible for us at that time). In other words, tourists from non-commonwealth or non EU could not go to a registry to get married (we needed the paper “married” to pursue other options – employment, where to live, etc. But it was a learning experience, just as a 100 million other experiences. It only made us stronger. Now I stay away from maulvis. and they stay away from me too.

Kulharee, tahmed, masadi:

Thanks for the advice.

kulharee: one issue with your article - you said your maulvi refused to conduct the marriage ceremony unless the girl converted. why did you feel the need to even approach one of these scoundrels (and feed him on top of putting up with his hot air that a maulvi will produce at every opportunity) when you know that there is no organized priesthood in islam? any muslim can serve as the imam if you wanted to have a religious ceremony.

Masadi Sahib (330), I love you… fully agree with you on this one. My son, is planning a major in Biological Anthropology and has no interest in becoming a doctor.

#322 GT: I think kulharee's advice ("The best way to raise kids...is to give them wings. Never put them down. Be firm, but always trust them. After that, let them fly away.") is good as far as it goes. I would add to this: Draw some lines: 1. Trust them, and let them know that you expect them to be honest with you no matter what. They should know that other mistakes are forgiven, but lying is not. This will help them in everything they do later on. 2. Certain destructive forms of behavior - smoking, drugs, and so forth You or the missus need to have the eye of an eagle on this one, in addition to reminders. Most people would like to think that this doesnt happen, but these are in fact very much a hazard in the US particularly in high school, and I am pretty sure in Pakistan too. Luckily, once they avoid this in school, they generally are fine in college.

And dont follow the "desi syndrome" of pushing them to become a doctor or lawyer. Good if they do it on their own, but also good if they find something else if they are really committed to it.

Didnt mean to ramble on and you are probably aware of all this anyway. but what the heck.. :-)

#323 read "Does disproportionate me NO WHITES "

as "Does disproportionate mean NO WHITES "

neembu writes "Masadi,

where are your current and credible stats in support of your claim?"

These "stats" are no secret, they are published by the US government itself, do your google search. A whole series of them are listed in my article "Constructing a Global Ghetto....." published by the Bangladesh Journal of Sociology. Read it and get an education....

Kulharee writes "Then there are those that view everything from Hooka to Malangni thru colonial paradigm."

A cheap escape like we have come to expect of Mr. Feroz QUtabshahi, deliberately ignoring the fact that the global institutions of trade, finance, manufacture, war making, culture generation (media), is dominated by neo-colonial, white-man structures that predominantly determine what is acceptible and unacceptible, desirable and undesirable...and in that chain the colored people unless they imitate the white man, and even then are considered lower in the scale of worth than the white man, as psychological fact which is also reproduced in the material world as developed and undeveloped nations....colonial paradigm or not, the overwhelming evidence reveals that the globe moreso than during physical colonization submits to serving the desires of its colonial masters, the power elite. Paul had it right when he said that the devil is the god of this world, for he determines its structures and thus not only your life chances but how you view yourself and your narrow existence. Only those who can rise above it and shun the worship of the devil, see through his matrix and reject it for the reality based on justice above it are the ones who attain salvation- but that involves struggle, intellectual, moral and physical- what we term Jihad. It has nothing to do with the Talibans and the Jihadists who are mere pawns in this game of the Shaitan.....

g'night..............

Re: # 323

Masadi,

where are your current and credible stats in support of your claim?

GT writes "At times I wonder whether I am doing enough for the children. "

Unless you tell them the reality of their existence in the land you live in, and what the white man has done and is doing to your people, including their image of themselves which is constructed through the eyes of others and the "others" include predominantly the white man's society and structures- and instruct them to see all that and reject it, you would have failed in your duty as a parent. It was in that context that I said you're in real trouble if you follow the Kulharee example of rank racism where they see themselves as less than the white man in front of whom they become his peons and imitators and in front of their own kind "whiter than white" (kind of like hamid the sage of the sewers here on chowk)....good day and good luck...you can thank me later, though that is unnecessary just don't curse my parents like Kulharee does after I give him good advice....

Thanks everybody. It’s been an eye-opener. Apparently, there are Desis with all sorts of pre-conceived ideas, even about my family that they have never met (but that’s okay). Then there are those who don’t approve of such unions. My answer to them is to count your blessings and thank your imaginary God that you are not married to some horrible other race (created by some other stupid God) than your own precious pious one. Then there are those that view everything from Hooka to Malangni thru colonial paradigm. But most Desis appear to be comfortable with interracial marriages. The bottomline is that it’s all okay. You stick to your own kind, preferably first cousins, and let other find what they decide to do with their lives. Thanks.


GT Sahib, Those feelings are very normal. Every parent should always be asking oneself if he/she is doing right. The best way to raise kids (in my opinion) is to give them wings. Never put them down. Be firm, but always trust them. After that, let them fly away.

neembu writes " and there is a significant population of working poor White Americans in the US. Neither population fits into your facile explanations; how do you account for them? "

You really need to go back to school, high schoola and all. Nowhere am I denying that America is a classless society, in fact it is clearly demarked between the elite their servers, and the rest fit higher or lower into the working class, there is certainly no middle class to speak of given the fluid nature of jobs, relocations and the new economy of part time temporary work, two three jobs per person and low paid service work. What I am saying is that the lower rungs of the working class and the underclass are disproportionaley made up of people of color- what part of disproportionate do you not understand. Does disproportionate me NO WHITES in the underclass? does it? That is why I am asking you to do yourself a favor and reenroll in school, like Billy Madison, though you wont find a white woman like he did unless she happens to be the size of dumbo.....good day now, don't waste my time and yours....

#312 Posted by tahmed32:

"...what scares you?"
At times I wonder whether I am doing enough for the children.

Dear cutters-and-paste artists on CHOWK,

Edit, re-phrase, be original (except in religion), be good please.

One can never guess from the CHOWK front-page what devils lurk behind these interacts.

Masadi Sahib:

The Black Church Rejects Rev. Dr. King
By John Blake
CNN



(CNN) -- In a stinging passage from a "Letter from Birmingham City Jail," the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. condemned white churches for rejecting his pleas for support.





"In the midst of blatant injustices inflicted upon the Negro, I have watched white churches stand on the sideline and merely mouth pious irrelevancies," King wrote from jail during the 1963 Birmingham, Alabama, demonstrations.



The contemporary white church has largely accepted King as a religious hero. Yet some observers say there is one religious community that continues to shun King -- the black church.



Forty years after his death, King remains a prophet without honor in the institution that nurtured him, black preachers and scholars say. King's "prophetic" model of ministry -- one that confronted political and economic institutions of power -- has been sidelined by the prosperity gospel.



Prosperity ministers preach that God rewards the faithful with wealth and spiritual power. Prosperity pastors such as Bishop T.D. Jakes have become the most popular preachers in the black church. They've also become brands. They've built megachurches and business empires with the prosperity message.



Black prophetic pastors rarely fill the pews like other pastors, though, because their message is so inflammatory, says Henry Wheeler, a church historian. Prophetic pastors like the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, the former pastor for Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Barack Obama, often enrage people because they proclaim God's judgment on nations, he says.



"It's dangerous to be prophetic," said Wheeler, who is also president of the Christian Theological Seminary in Indianapolis, Indiana.



"I don't know many prophetic preachers who are driving big cars and living very comfortably. You don't generally build huge churches by making folks uncomfortable on Sunday morning," he said.





The prosperity gospel started as a fringe doctrine in the black church. It was pioneered by "Rev. Ike," a prosperity televangelist with a pompadour who boasted during his heyday in the 1970s that "my garages runneth over."



Jonathan Walton, author of "Watch This! Televangelism and African American Religious Culture," says that although people may have chuckled at Ike's flamboyance, his theology exerts more influence in the modern black church than King's.



"King got the glory and the history books, but ... [Ike has] got the numbers," said Walton, who is also an assistant professor of religious studies at the University of California, Riverside.



Black prosperity preachers say their message is not based on greed, though, but self-help.

Bishop Paul Morton, senior pastor of Greater St. Stephens Full Gospel Church in New Orleans, Louisiana, says that teaching black people better money management is the "next dimension" of King's ministry.



"The Bible said that the poor we will always have with us," he said. "It's up to us to bring ourselves out of the curse of poverty."



Morton was the only black prosperity preacher contacted who agreed to talk about King's ministry. Many of the black church's most popular prosperity preachers -- the Rev. Creflo Dollar of Atlanta, Georgia; the Rev. Fred Price of Los Angeles, California; and Bishop Keith Butler of Detroit, Michigan -- all declined.



Jakes, the most popular prosperity preacher (he made the cover of Time magazine in 2001), declined to talk as well. He did, however, address his views on social justice in August on "Religion & Ethics," a PBS news program.



"I'm not against marching," Jakes said. "But in the '60s, the challenge of the black church was to march. And there are times now perhaps that we may need to march. But there's more facing us than social justice. There's personal responsibility, motivating and equipping people to live the best lives that they can."



The debate between self-help and political activism is nothing new in the black community. Booker T. Washington and W.E.B. DuBois clashed over the issue at the beginning of the 20th century. Most black prophetic teachers teach self-help along with activism.

King was caught in the middle of this debate early in his ministry.

King became prominent after leading the Montgomery bus boycott in 1956, but he was already gaining a name for himself in the National Baptist Convention, the largest black church organization in the nation.



King wanted to use the convention as an institutional base for the movement. But his tactics -- civil disobedience, publicly confronting segregationists -- were repudiated by convention leaders and the Rev. J.H. Jackson, the convention president, says Wheeler, the church historian.



"He thought that if blacks were good citizens, worked hard and did what was expected, our rights will come; we would prove out merit," Wheeler said.



In 1961, King tried to orchestrate the election of a leader to replace Jackson. He and a group of black ministers attempted to vote Jackson out of office at the convention's annual meeting. It was a disaster.



According to Taylor Branch's Pulitzer Prize-winning book, "Parting the Waters: America in the King Years," ministers exchanged blows. One lost three teeth. Another was killed when his skull was fractured. Riot police were called out to separate the warring pastors.



Jackson kicked King out of the convention and held onto power. The pastors who aligned themselves with King formed their own group, the Progressive National Baptist Convention. The schism remains today.



Wheeler says the black church's rejection of King wasn't confined to its leadership. Most people in the pews didn't want to get involved. The movement was driven primarily by younger people.



Fear was the primary reason, he says.



"We forget that people were getting killed, churches being burned," he said. "It was the common understanding that things were not going to change, that people were getting killed for nothing."



A new generation of prophetic ministers in the black church is now trying to do what King once attempted: gain a voice in the establishment.



Four years ago, a group of them formed the Samuel DeWitt Proctor Conference. Proctor was a scholar and college president who was active in the civil rights movement. The annual conference attempts to preserve the prophetic voice of black churches by bringing like-minded pastors together for support and advice.



A few prophetic pastors have even talked about taking another approach to raising their profile in the black church: television, says Lawrence Mamiya, a professor of religion at Vassar College in Poughkeepsie, New York.



"Some of them have talked about the need to get on television and try to counter the televangelists, but I don't know of any social justice preacher who has a broad television audience," he said.



At least one young prophetic minister has found a prominent place in the public eye.

The Rev. Raphael Warnock, senior pastor of Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta, where King preached, says that prosperity preaching is not just a distortion of Jesus' message but a betrayal of the black church's heritage. The black church was formed by slaves who saw Jesus' message as a tool for social justice.



"The prophetic voice of the black church is the very reason for its being," Warnock said. "The only reason that there's such a thing as the black church is because of the question of freedom, justice and equal access."



Walton, the University of California scholar, says contemporary black churchgoers have now embraced another mission: equal access to wealth. "It's the theological doctrine of American culture," he said.



King's voice may ring out in the history books, but it no longer rings out in the black pews. Walton says the battle between the prophetic and prosperity ministers in the black church is over for now.



The Rev. Ikes have won.






"Many Americans give lip service to entering the social justice arena and speaking out against the economic and politically powerful," Walton said, "but very few of us are willing to pay the price."



"We like to identify with Dr. King in theory, though we emulate Rev. Ike in practice."

Re: # 318

Masadi Sahib,

I understand disproportionality, etc. I'm pointing out that in reality, there is a growing of color population in the US and there is a significant population of working poor White Americans in the US. Neither population fits into your facile explanations; how do you account for them?

neembu writes "Seriously. Interact with tameez or I will not continue this conversation"

Quit this BS, you have nothing, what I wrote is factually documented, race and class in America is closely and thoroughly linked and the facts support what I say. There is not a single economist or sociologist other than the die hard right wingers (like Dinesh Dsouza) that will deny stratification based on race in the US. What I am saying is not that there isnt a single black rich man or group of middle class blacks, what I am writing about is the disproportionality of class based on race- which is a fact which shows any fool who knows how to read social data that race is a determining factor. Now don't waste my time- it is quite clear you don't have a clue about this issue...

Re: # 314

Masadi Sahib,

Seriously. Interact with tameez or I will not continue this conversation.

Are you saying that there are no affluent Af Ams, Asian Ams, Latino Ams, Native Ams in the US?

Yes or no?

"My mother-in-law put a curse on us and spat in my husband's face
I really think we are cursed now, because I am not Greek. How do I remove the curse?
By Cary Tennis

Apr. 07, 2008 | Dear Cary,

My mother-in-law put a curse on my husband and me -- I believe she couldn't get through to me and so she attacked him. She cursed that he would never make any money in his life, that he would lose his business, lose his wife, me, and the kids, and be completely destroyed. And to seal the curse, she spat in his face twice.

I'm a very superstitious person and I truly believe that she sealed this curse on him. The reason is that they are Greek and I am not. They want control over us, and I refuse to have anyone control me anymore. I've been with him for over 12 years, eight of which we've been married; we have three little kids together. I've done everything I could to make them happy and to basically accept me, and no matter what, they just don't. They would be fine in front of me and then talk behind my back to others. The entire family and friends have told me the things they've said, but yet, I put it aside. My little cousin died (12 years old), and they never came to the funeral, and they didn't even apologize -- instead they completely avoided me and had no respect.

Anyway, that was the beginning of my awakening, and I stopped doing all the things that I was previously doing for them, like their laundry, their housecleaning, ironing, etc., just everything. We had a huge blowout last year around the same time because I went to do my hair -- and they were like, Why should I highlight my hair? What, was I trying to be a model? Well, it started like that and became really huge, and now this.

Any help on how to remove this would be great.

Cursed by Mother-in-Law

Dear Cursed,

I hope you will forgive me if I tell you I don't believe in curses in the literal way. But I believe trauma can be a kind of curse. It must have been very traumatic to see your mother-in-law spit in your husband's face! It must be very traumatic to have this family that does not accept you and that works against you and does not respect you. And if they feel that because they are Greek and you are not, that they are better than you, that must be terribly discouraging.

Trauma can of course be a kind of curse. It can weigh you down and paralyze you and confused you and fill you with fear and ultimately bring about the very thing that it has no "real," demonstrable power to bring about -- your failure, your misfortune!

People's words can be a curse. While one can take this to extremes, I think it is true that by speaking certain words habitually, or in a traumatizing way, we can send messages to ourselves and to others that in a sense bypass our conscious control and affect us profoundly without our consent. Someone may say to a child over and over, "You're no good. You'll never be any good," and they may as well have cursed that child. We can affect other adults with our words as well. And surely, an attack such as you describe can put a curse on an adult son, rendering him weakened, fearful, put-upon and unloved, rendering him bitter and unhappy. That bitterness and unhappiness, in turn, might bring about the very effects the curse intended. Also, because a son desires to prove his mother right, he may in some way now wish to fail, in order to please his mother, whom he no doubt loves in spite of her mistreatment.

Finally, if you believe the curse is real, then it is real, and it must be lifted somehow. You must find the correct ritual to lift it.

How can you break such a curse as that? Perhaps you have ritual methods that others in your family have used? If so, use them. If not, I don't know. Perhaps you can write a letter to your mother-in-law, informing her that the spell has been lifted by an agency of your own devising. Perhaps to unseal this curse and break its spell, you could perform some magic on your husband's face; perhaps you could dab it with warm water, or magical oils, until the mother's curse is gone; or perhaps he could go have a facial. Perhaps you and your husband could go sit in the enzyme baths up at Olema and be purified.

Rituals can have great power to heal, but it must be the right ritual. I encourage you to undertake some rituals to remove this curse. The choice of ritual must be yours, however, as I do not even know what region of the world you are in. Olema is in Northern California, and we're all crazy here. We'll believe anything. "

www.salon.com

GT writes "Sometimes I get a bit scared"

You should be very scared, mortally scared if you take Kulharee (Feroz Qutabshahi) as the standard (the "as well"). I fear for your children and pity you....

neembu writes "Your first premise, that race allocates class is faulty to begin with.."

I suggest that if you don't know about something or are ignorant, as you are in this case you should shut up. It took you two days to come up with this nonsense you wrote. When blacks are disproportionately high in the lower and disproportionaltely low in the higher classes, when their unemployment is double that of whites, when their incomes are half that of them, then RACE as a stratification factor definitely determines you life chances and hence your class. Gender discrimination works the same way, you cannot say that just because there are middle class women there is no gender discrimination in the US. Get an education...

Re: # 300

Your first premise, that race allocates class is faulty to begin with. How do you account for middle and upper class Af Ams, Latino Ams, Asian-Ams, etc.? In other words, as usual Masadi, you are making gross generalizations that cannot be factually supported.

GT: what scares you?

Kulharee,

This was a very nice read. Also, congratulations! You have brought up your kids well. I hope I am able to do as well. Sometimes I get a bit scared. Again, enjoyed reading.

Regards.

pow writes " tahmedi saab it is good as majamidar saab says. there will be less Baangladaishis around saab. its not all bad news saab "

You need to get your act straight. These peons of the West act all uppity with their own kind, only in the presence of the white man do they act like you, all kiss a$$ and worshipful and "jaan hazir hey" looks, kind of like the current PM when he met Negroponte. The way you are acting tells me that you are a coolie of the peons of the West and not the standard character traits that describe the peons of the West. Get your act straight or change your name....

peon sahib: i wonder if you have asked the bangladeshi hazraat their views on this question.

#306 majumdar sahib: i still think that we should not depend on the roll of the dice on such a sea change (which in this case is more than just a metaphor).

Re: # 305

tahmeedi saab it is good as majamidar saab says. there will be less Baangladaishis around saab. its not all bad news saab

Tahmed sahib,

Well you could end up with arid regions of Indo-Pak receiving lots more rain and becoming fertile regions like Indus Valley of old. You never know it may be a good thing.

Regards

PS: Will be waiting for a FP article from you on the same.

majumdar qibla #302: unfortunately what i have noticed sir is that the wind cannot read political maps. similarly, global warming cannot understand that it should stop at immigration check posts of the bangladesh-india border. the fact is that coastal areas around the world (not just bangladesh) are headed towards becoming ocean floors within a few short decades.

no one can predict how all this will play out (e.g. will northern india and pakistan become waterless deserts? will the Siberia turn into a green pasture into which hundreds of millions of "climate refugees" from the sub-contiennt force their wa into?) but one thing is for sure - instead of wasting their little resources on warplanes and subs that serve no practical purpose and endless crap about kashmir, subcontinent governments should be getting serious about the climate problems looming over the next few decades.

Re: # 296

yawn.



Masadi Sahib,

to be continued.

Ana, oh ho.. I most certainly realize that. My last post was directed to those who put themselves on a high moral pedestal and start passing judgments on others without even knowing any shyt they are talking about. TAhmad Sahib, for instance, makes an observation that kids that are being raised in some Desi families require more attention than the case of multiracial kids (because these poor kids are totally neglected by their Desi parents and when they try to emulate their peers in dressing up or wanting to try different foods, it bothers their parents and Islam and other stuff is revoked). You are by far the most knowlagable on this subject, and I enjoyed reading your views as well. Now don’t even think for a second that I am ever bothered by Lahori naivete even for a bit. Gimme a little more credit than that. Yassis!

T Saab. That’s what my observations have also been my interactions with many Pakistani families that live in New York. The contradictions in our communities are so vast and acerbic that one can only hope that the our next generation is a bit more assimilated, not so insulated and inward looking. Thanks for your kind words.

Tahmed sahib,

(has anyone wondered how a few short decades from now when all of bangladesh is under water, where will the 200-250 million bangladeshis go? )

As long as it is not India, I have no issues.

Regards

Re: # 220
All the grown man wants is 'cooked rare with extra mayonnaise' take-away at CHOWK. The only flaw with the order is that at Chowk, you don't ask for a take-away, you eat 'em alive!

):

neembu writes "And also Masadi,

perhaps you should be reviewing the overwhelming evidence of class based discrimination that is part and parcel of empire building. "

When race determines the class that is allocated to you- as the evidence reveal overwhelmingly- then you cannot say its class and not race. Second race difference as allocation of life chances is more persistent because this "acquired status" cannot be easily hidden or got rid of in a culture dominated by racism- hense the fact that the Irish overtime were accomodated and now there are no race based stats that show discrimination among any immigrant white ethnicity in the US while segregation indicies/ employment/income etc between white/black have remained high throughout the post slavery era....

Kulharee pa ji, I hope you realize that whatever I have written is not to denigrate you or your wife, or Greeks, or whites or even us. I liked the article very much. I can see from what you have written and our other exchanges that you two do respect each others cultures and have made them your own. And if more people could do that, well, I'll just keep my "Lahori naivete" to myself. ;)

Yassou!

arjuna: Dude, Kosta in my Big Fat Greek Wedding would not have said that other civilizations gave us philosophy, arts and drama before the Greeks. Some Greeks really believe that they were the first.

#295 Posted by Kulharee on April 6, 2008 3:42:25 pm


while northern Europeans were climbing trees, Greeks had already conquered the world and built cities that are marveled to day. Ha ha about Greeks not feeling ‘white’. And yes, it were other civilizations that gave us philosophy, arts, drama, and not Greeks.


dude..you sound like the father from my big fat greek wedding...

Feroz Axeman sahib: Finally read your article. I can see it comes from the heart, and enjoyed reading it.

You and your wife clearly have mutual respect for your different cultures.

I know a number of such mixed-heritage couples who have demonstrated similar mutual respect, and their children have in all cases grown up to be well-adjusted adults for whom their mixed culture background is an asset and not a liability.

Ironically, the most confused children I have seen have been where both couples were ultra-conservative Pakistanis. Thus, there is this girl who (per reports from her classmates) wears the hijab around her parents and takes it off in school. Then there was this brother and sister visiting from Pakistan who sat piously nodding their heads while their mother bragged about how strict they were in their hilal diet. And yet, the moment they were alone with some other kids, begged those kids to be taken to a some place with a big juicy totally non-hilal hamburger. This is just one example of the hypocrisy which is all that "islam lovers" breed when they seek to paint western culture as being corrupt and hold their "islamic culture" as being a stamp of moral superiority.

#293 Posted by neembu

Samina,
That is amazing! You can actually write something that makes sense. Were you not able to find any web site worthy of copy paste to respond to my post?

I think if you continue to write original pieces like the one you just posted #293, possibilities are that you may get a tenured position in the next fifty years.

But the amount of Cholesterol you carry may send you North of 125th street way before that!

Wish you best of luck in whatever you get first!

Ana, the title was not given at an impulse, but after a serious reflection. The purpose was to highlight the challenges (many) such couples face, and the discussion that it generated proves my points very well (at least I would like to think so). Look at some jokers passing judgments on why people marry outside of their race, this type of garbage goes in our one ear and out the other. My wife is very respectful of values of my culture and dresses appropriate to Pakistani sensibilities while there. I think some people here need some serious counseling. As said earlier, bigots and racists come in every shape size and color, and by golly we have our fair share – but we are so fuking stupid to admit it and stupider to even confront it. Some Greek reading this would laugh at the suggestion that how they are not consider “white” by other whites.. they could give a fuk (as a group) about why would anyone worry about them being white or not. I have never known another group so proud of being who they are (sometimes too much of that can be annoying), and while northern Europeans were climbing trees, Greeks had already conquered the world and built cities that are marveled to day. Ha ha about Greeks not feeling ‘white’. And yes, it were other civilizations that gave us philosophy, arts, drama, and not Greeks.

#292 peonofthewest

Thank you for your offer to send your mother over after diner. I really appreciate it. However, I have to decline this one as I don't like to hobnob with peons and servants in my household. They are just not my class. Also, they are just too poor to have some healthy mothers and sisters.

Anyway, scuttlebutt has it that your mother is nothing more than a hole in the wall!
Thanks!

Re: # 291

Hari Pisshna,

Since you are a child when you were a child in those days that you were childish, not harishness, or pishness, or huppy ishness, but chishness, and chidewide, and smudged with pieshkii, we can only say your post is chispish.

Re: # 291

HP saab (its not short for Horse Poo is it saab?), you are the stupid saab.

i dont like blackies myself saab. see what i said about the kaala bhooka bangaali saab.

saab you look like someone who is in a big need to have a woman saab (black or white or brown or yellow). given how stupid you are saab i dont think you can be too picky saab

#202 Posted by neembu

Samina,

I thought you know a little bit about the social, economic, and cultural issues. Your question to Asadi really tells me that there really is not much depth in your thoughts.

There is no way any sensible person would misconstrue what Asadi said. Too bad, you can’t figure it out yourself. So let me help here.

You appear to be a Chomsky fan so I will refer you to one of his recent article.
http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20080226.htm

Try to relate what Chomsky wrote with what Asadi has posted. Often, I don’t agree with Chomsky but a liberal and radical like you would wanna figure out how the things are implied in written political pieces and how the words are used in political speeches.

Childish questions like that don’t enhance your profile.

Re: # 287

iam thankful to you for that
& I didnt took it personally

Tahmed, it is not a state secret that it is common for women in Pakistan to cover their heads. I am aware that not all do it, but many certainly do. All the pictures I saw of Jemima in Pakistan, even when not campaigning, certainly showed her with her head covered.
There is no need to get all defensive about it.

Re: # 285
Sorry i was adressing bjkumar.

#281 Posted by ana

“And HP there are more than a few Lahoris, myself included,”

Ana, I did not mean to generalize but sometimes you have to live with the tag. There are people who have a better sense and are not what the stereotypes would suggest. Majha-Sajha, Talanga and the special streak of stupidity or just ignorance are all part of Lahore’s culture. Yes, it may appear to you that it is generalization but it is a tag that sometimes gets so badly stuck that it is hard to unglue it. Some people enjoy it, others just ignore, and some others live with that!

I am sure you would just ignore it instead of taking it personally.

Saadya bibi, nothing personal. I was just giving you a picture of what the Color-Blind love actually means. Don't ferret over it.

I just read the article & sent my views on it

i dont pass comments at people

every one has the right to think on his /her own

Re: # 284

what are u trying to say mr treetop

its going over my head

Re: # 283
But seriously Saadiya.....Is it like saying Hi or Hello?
Subconcious is tricky.

Re: # 280

[why u became angry]

Perhaps he became angry because he is unhappy.

Perhaps he is unhappy because he is jealous.

Perhaps he is jealous because...

I better not go THERE! He might feel harrassed.

But seriously Saadiya, HP was merely "using" you to get at somebody, so do not take it too hard.

If you like a chick....say ...salam then ...BAM...then thank you mam...make your life a little simpler.

#273

The title of this article really should not have been color-blind love, because if Kulharee was talking mostly about his own family, it was mostly about an interfaith marriage.

Having said that, I think the writer of this article might have applied the metaphor across the board to race, faith, ethnicity, as you have suggested. So you're not entirely wrong. . .lighter note or not

And HP there are more than a few Lahoris, myself included, who would take exception to your generalizing about "the usual Lahori naiveties." While you're talking about sub-consciously choosing, you might check your own not-so-subconscious choosing to make a statement like that. :)

Peace!

Re: # 274

do one thing mr HP write on this topic by urself

it will be pleasure to send comments on it

write a good one

waiting :P

MR HP

I just said it in a lighter note

why u became angry

Re: # 274

HP I very much understand outstanding anger by yourself and second it. It is fact man married white person so he can write or is subject/ topic. Nobody will write for marrying a cousin. Now think generously he has hurdles to pass and continue marriage when in usa 50% are sinking in storm.Even it is interesting story for normal people for going through life.
Even in our dark wheat colored country we differentiate all
,time all life.

I always told my daughters you are equal to males and there is no problem for advancenemt. I also told them if you feel inferior then you are.

So no point in freighting or getting angry. I never feel inferior to whites or dark indians if I feel other way then I am inferior.

Liking white women and men is fine and seeking also is nothing wrong its persuit of happyness or is not indicative of inferiority.
MR.Quatabshahi has not claimed to be superior by his words or response,be fair and let it go.

Re: # 274

HP I very much understand outstanding anger by yourself and second it. It is fact man married white person so he can write or is subject/ topic. Nobody will write for marrying a cousin. Now think generously he has hurdles to pass and continue marriage when in usa 50% are sinking in storm.Even it is interesting story for normal people for going through life.
Even in our dark wheat colored country we differentiate all
,time all life.

I always told my daughters you are equal to males and there is no problem for advancenemt. I also told them if you feel inferior then you are.

So no point in freighting or getting angry. I never feel inferior to whites or dark indians if I feel other way then I am inferior.

Liking white women and men is fine and seeking also is nothing wrong its persuit of happyness or is not indicative of inferiority.
MR.Quatabshahi has not claimed to be superior by his words or response,be fair and let it go.

Re: # 209

Samina:

"...class based discrimination that is part and parcel of empire building...."

You have finally spelled it for Massaddi Mian.

He is unable to study empire building as extension of basic human nature. He does not even have the courage to study it, else his beliefs in his favorite Islamic Empire would be in serious trouble. I had earlier challenged him on it from integral part of "Elites" in all societies.

Re: # 274 HP sir,you are partially right.
Long time back it was something for people will oppose for whaever reason.
Recently all charm of such outrageous behaviour is lost nobody cares and does not oppose so all heroic of marrying is going to dogs.Allfun is lost it just two individuals.
Old times women filks use to worry if they can makegood money, men were were interested in knowing if they are educated, the family members were curious about family Khandan etc now all only interested in party food and drink . No value to race , religion , welcome tonew world.
good night

"I heard & now when some body marries some one with different race ,color,religion ...........he will be called color-blind in love."

No Saadya bibi, You got it wrong. This title was subconsciously chosen to show the author's pride in marrying a White. How stupid was that? We can ascribe that to the usual Lahori naiveties. The author thinks there are only two races in the world, White and non white. Whites always right...nonwhite always wrong. Fking Uncle Toms!

regardless of the discussion going on here..........I was just thinking about the "title" of article "Color-Blind Love"
Isnt it amzaing.what an idea to use this terminology :)

LOVE IS BLIND................I heard & now when some body marries some one with different race ,color,religion ...........he will be called color-blind in love. GREAT :D

#269 Posted by ana,

...koi farq naeen painda je meiN kuj akkhaaN...

LoL ... now I'm doubly sure I was wrong in calling you that! Confirmed!

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Tahmed,

The answer is not floating cities, but what the example you mention in your 246. There is plenty of empty land on the world which can be made liveable with the modern technology. The Saudies can follow the Newzealander's example and spend some of their petro Dollars to make the desert liveable and settle the Bangladeshis there. I know this is not going to happen, but it is thought.

zeemax:

as we have explained to masadi earlier, redflagging has no effect whatsoever. koi farq naeen painda je meiN kuj akkhaaN. . .that person does not like your posts. is my asking whoever it is to stop going to make a difference? i doubt it.

Re: # 267

zemaxi saab, i have a job saab. i told you before saab, just because you have a new girlfriend, no need to call your wife a dog saab. it is not nice saab

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Re: # 265

i dont want to be in a boat with a kaala and bhooka bangaali saab, you can kill me now saab

Re: # 260

no no tahmeedi saab, it cant be the same boat saab. the baangladaishis decided on a separate boat some years ago saab

ana,

Can you please ask this mad cow to stop red-flagging all my posts ... just look below. She/it even red-flagged this one:

#253 Posted by zeemax re #244 Posted by ana,

Oh, so I retract my title for you. You don't appear to be a St. Joseph bimbo after all. Now I'll have to find another one to call that!

saab you rich folk worry too much saab. if everything goes, it doesnt matter any more saab. may be it is the fashion saab

Re: # 261

tunkil,

no, you won't. i work and this is my few hours off. i was trying to be nice. take care!

#259 good. so it is settled. look forward to the article.

peonofthewest: not funny sir when you understand that ultimately we are all in the same boat as the bangladeshis are floating in sir.

Re: # 256

*sigh*.

#255 that too. but the dutch have this problem of being below the sea-level. so their floating houses are about rising sea levels.

Re: # 252

tahmeedi saab that is funny saab. hundreds of millions of baangladaishis floating about in the open sea saab

neembu: i am an achoot chowk poster, not a brahmin article writer. why dont you write up the fp article instead?

tahmed, i think that floating housing idea is oriented towards communities by the rivers