The ‘shoey’ Side of Politics

Re: # 481 tahmed
Beauracracies in every society are averse to taking risks they let the things fester until every thing gets out of control.Besides musharaf was under the illusion that the leadership of tailban and thier supporters understands the geo-strategic and economic compulsions of pakistan and that they will be grateful to him for saving them from daisy cutters.Its just a thought no tangible proof for it.

#483 "Allah works in mysterious ways"

in other words, you agree that there is no logical explanation for that other than the one I provided.

#481/482 Posted by tahmed32,

The khasadars is the local term for Frontier Constabulary of the Pakistan Army. If you don't know that, you know very little indeed my friend.

Re the rest of your questions, Allah works in mysterious ways.

So we don't agree on that statement in #475, which means we can't go further in our discussion till another development takes place..

Sigh ...

zeemax #478 this is the same big talk that the lal masjid maulvis were doing before musharraf was forced by the chinese to put an end to their mischief.

no doubt local forces (the khasadars, who i never heard of before but assume are some kind of a paramilitary group run by the government and will be glad for any info on them) are on the run at this time - that means nothing in the bigger scheme of things: dreams of carving a ministate out of Pakistan will remain just that. No self-respecting government willingly gives up the writ of the state permanently, although it may permit short term suspensions during times of multiple crises, like nowadays for the democratic government.

#480 zeemax: The original crop was grown by our own people from soviet war days. And the original johnny appleseed was zia, as everyone knows now. Without military support, these groups would be nothing. Even the taliban would have been nowhere in their war against massoud's forces after the soviets left if they did not have the military propping them up as "pro-pakistan" elements.

And you have never explained how lal masjid was allowed to be converted from a madrassah into an arsenal and from there into a mini-government. If musharraf was serious about fighting terrorists, why did he allow all this to happen under his nose?

#479 Posted by tahmed32,

What you're missing is that they weren't allowed to grow by anyone. They just grew despite all efforts. Jamia Hafsa was the catalyst to bring the djinn out of the bottle, which still remains out of the bottle - and the bottle will not be capped unless their basic demands are met, which are being met e.g. in Swat where an Islamic Shariah administration has been agreed upon (wait for the news).

This is what you're missing.

Now, do we agree on the statement in #475?

#475 The "old" lashkars were musharraf's UNWITTING tools, in my view. That is - they may or may not have been aware that they were not the Great Muslim Warriors they imagined themselves to be, but merely being permitted to fester and grow by musharraf since they served his strategy of being seen both within Pakistan and outside Pakistan as being the only alternative to taliban-style rule in Pakistan.

Do you disagree? if so, what am I missing?

tahmed32, do read this. I spoke to a friend from that area and he says Mangal Bagh has agencies' support:

Closure of PA Bara headquarters demanded

Friday, April 18, 2008

BARA: After forcing his opponents to surrender in Jamrud area of the Khyber Agency, head of the militant organisation Lashkar-e-Islam turned his guns towards the political administration (PA) compelling it to close down its Bara headquarters. Announcing the development at his illegal FM radio station, the defiant LI head said he exercised maximum restraints in taking action against the political administration, which he claimed, tried to stop his drive against anti-social elements in the tribal agency. “But following Wednesday’s incident, when Khasadar force impeded our efforts to stop immoral, illegal and un-Islamic activities in Jamrud, the role of the authorities is no more acceptable to us,” he declared.

Mangal Bagh said he had ordered closure of the political administration headquarters forthwith which was later locked out. He announced, “I will no longer protect security forces from anti-social elements in the tribal territory which I have been doing since the launch of the Lashkar-e-Islam”.

The LI chief in his address warned personnel of Khasadar force of Bara tehsil against performance of their duties, failing which, their houses would be razed to the ground besides imposition of a fine of rupees one million.

The personnel of Khasadar Force immediately vacated the Bara tehsil headquarters. The khasadars from Bara serving in the Khyber House, Peshawar, also left their place of duty after the threat by Mangal Bagh. All the offices and checkpoints manned by the Khasadar Force in Khyber Agency were also abandoned. Eyewitnesses said Khasadar men were seen vacating the facility along with their personal belongings before the LI volunteers sealed the same.

Meanwhile, clashes in Jamrud halted after Zahir Shah’s family of the Kokikhel tribe, who were the main rivals in the current unrest in Jamrud, surrendered to the group and furnished guarantees to the LI for their ‘good conduct’ in future. However, the area remained tense amid heavy deployment of the FC personnel and families continued to flee the area throughout the day. Traffic on the Pak-Afghan Highway also remained suspended for the fifth consecutive day with security forces consolidating their position at Takhta Baig checkpoint at the entry to the tribal agency. It was also learnt that the overnight clashes between the groups claimed life of a LI volunteer identified as Akhtar Afridi while nine others were injured in the clashes.

http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=107445

#476 Posted by dost_mittar,

I'm afraid you've only seen the movie, in which the guy does indeed say "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn". But movie adaptations of great books are for dummies (sorry!).

In the book, he says "Frankly, my dear, I don't care a damn" which is the correct expression.

zeemax#468:

"I would just say the same as Margaret Mitchell had Mr. Butler to say "Frankly, I don't care a damn"."

I am disappointed in you. How could you commit such a mistake? It is "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn".

[now, dont say you dont care either way :)]

#474 Posted by tahmed32,

Excellent. Now we can go further but first, just for clarity, we have to confirm our agreement on the following because it is critical for further discussion:

All the previous lashkars were not musharraf's tools but this new one (headed by a certain Mangal Bagh) is VERY likely to be musharraf's tool.

Do we agree on this?

zeemax: So, it is the drug mafia up in arms against the new government, not the boys of fata. I didnt realize that - so thanks for answering a question which I indeed should have asked.

To me this battle is a hopeful sign then - the new government means business when it says law and order is its first priority, and is not prepared to simply by off drug lords like musharraf's corrupt government.

Wrt FATA, I think it is too early to tell. I think the new government is trying a carrot and stick approach - willing to talk, but also preparing to use force if needed. Thus, US is already providing training (and materials?) to FF and there was also news about a joint US-Afghan-Pakistan monitoring operation set up.

So - it seems to me that rather than playing games with Americans as well as the Pakistani public (as musharraf was doing), all indications so far are that the new government is being more straight with both - taking ownership of terrorism as being a Pakistani problem, rather than simply pointing to the US and saying "they give me no choice" as musharraf was doing.

That is the best that I can think. :-) Let me know where you find flaws in logic above, or things I am ignorant of.

#454 Posted by tahmed32, re #451

... these lashkars etc., like jamia hafsa, were musharraf's unwitting tools. ... musharraf's game ... has been exposed ... they no longer have musharraf around ... the game seems to be up for them ...

tahmed32, if you had been an impassioned observer like Yours Truly (meaning me, not our esteemed Urstruly), you would arrive at the conclusion that in fact all the previous lashkars were not musharraf's tools at all - but this new one (headed by a certain Mangal Bagh) is VERY likely to be exactly that.

There was war all over FATA and Swat except Khyber Agency when musharraf was in power. Now when a democratic Government is in power, there is peace and negotiations all over FATA and Swat except Khyber Agency. Why?

Reason is, Khyber Agency is very different from the rest of FATA. It is the hub for smuggling (Bara markets) and narcotics. The tribal sardars are corrupt and criminals. Remember Ayub Afridi, a Senator, who was extradited to USA for heroine trafficking - who had a palace bigger than the white house near Landi Kotal with a helipad? In short, it can be bought. This is why it wasn't in the battle in support of Pak-Taliban Vs musharraf, but is now in battle with the elected Government when the Pak-Taliban are in negotations.

Suddenly this Mangal Bagh's Lashkar-e-Islam has popped out of the blue which has a paid army of Rs. 5,000/month (instead of volunteers) and heavy arms.

You should have asked "Who are these people?" But you didn't. You just repeat the same ole same ole.

Think, Sir!

further to #471: actually, his fascination with the gora color, any nationality. every time there is a news item of some gora converting to islam or something positive said about islam by some gora, this man would rush to post it. this betrays his own inferiority complex where he needs the "gora seal of approval" for islam, rather than discussing it on its own merits.

#469 zeemax: echoboom is a fake. ask him if he sang this song when humbly standing in line with his visa application for canada. and ask him on his fascination with gora arabs and persians, and his lack of interest in anything going on in pakistan.

che guevara: i think you are right. i hope i can count on your vote though when i run for elections on chowk though.