The ‘shoey’ Side of Politics

tahmed,
I never said that Pakistan has pulled back from the brink of democracy. I said that PPPP has pulled back from the brink of a revolution. I hope you dont have your HIGHS?

Romair,
Simplistic arguements wont do. In Musharraf's tenure, military corparatism in Pakistan has taken a turn for the worse and now Intelligence Agencies patrol the society and military itself. A Patrimonial Gaurd exclusive to the President has already taken place and the name of the game is, 'controlled democracy for the BAFOON Politicians'. This appears Zardari's preferred option and not NS....I do not agree on your comments on AWT etc neither do I endorse the views of MilINC. Cicero must not be killed for bad verses.

It is clear now why BB gave a limited support to CJ. She only wanted to go to a point in support of this movement insofar it served to put pressure on Mush to negotiate. Purists were never her endearment.

tahmed writes "The two can coexist as a healthy counterweight to one another in all provinces"

A great recipe to enhance military rule by creating a stalemate that enhance the status quo and plays in the hands of the military. His answer shows that he does not have a clue about any of the issues whatsoever. Musharraf did not abuse his uniform he acted in accordance with the requirements that have shaped the Pakistan military as an institution- if he had not, he would never have reached the heights (of tyranny and dictatorship) he reached. The military is neck deep in politics, no one person can extract it and certainly not one appointed by a dictator to its pinnacle. If it is standing down explicitly you can be damn sure that its pulling the strings implicitly....

HP #503 you make a number of good points.

A. "Zardari, when he bad mouths the Lawyers is actually digging his own grave." Agreed. He seems to be almost jealous of the hard-earned respect the lawyers, and that is not just being small-hearted by foolish as well - even his own rank and file have had to take a stand against him on this core issue.

B. I dont think it is totally correct to say that PPP has its base in Sindh. PPP has a natural base in other provinces too among the poor with its left-of-center economic agenda. PML is more right-of-center. The two can coexist as a healthy counterweight to one another in all provinces.

C. I am not sure if the army is in any mood to play games in politics at least at this time. They realize how low their stock has gone due to musharraf's abuse of the uniform.

later....

hamidm (if you are not at the golf course): looks like the "droopy eyed judge" is about to be restored, along with the scores of other principled judges. and guess what happens when 100 honest men join the parliament in moving democracy forward!!

btw, as for general "hosni mubarak", he is no longer even making the pretense of clinging to power which had already slipped away when he was kicked out of the army - and is now merely begging to be kept on as a hollow figurehead..

Resolution on 23rd
Abrar Saeed
ISLAMABAD - Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gillani would hand down an executive order for the restoration of the superior courts judges, including the Chief Justice of Pakistan Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry, on April 23 or 25, following the tabling and passage of the resolution by the National Assembly in this regard, sources privy to the development disclosed to TheNation.
The sources further disclosed that April 23 is the definite date for the tabling and the passage of the resolution but the executive order may be issued on April 25 (Friday).

http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/Apr-2008/21/index2.php

By the way Ferozk has no clue when he says that it is a different army now. The army is very much the same, it is just the face at the top that is different, and if the face at the top tries to change the structure of the military, or iterferes with the timing and motives of their real masters he will be got rid of by a military conspiracy itself, conning the civilians to change the leadership or making someone go home early as has happened in the past, and those civilian leaders that have been conned by the military to interfere in its leadership on their behalf have always regretted their decision. You forget that the worst dictator in this country's history appointed the current leader of the military because they both thought in similar dictatorial fashion. The election results were as they were because the motive was to coopt the people's emotions and not to add fuel to the fire by a Q victory...

Pakistan was INDEED pulled back from democratic changes when the military coopted the current elections by channeling people's emotions in a benign direction rather than where they were headed, a war between the public and the military... as usual tahmed has no clue about anything, the only "pie" is in his face....seems like I'm on a roll today...read the golfing and hamid comment on the shrink's article interacts!.....

#502 ijazgul: the concept of a "perfect democracy" is as pie-in-the-sky as the concept of a "perfect society". so it is meaningless for you to say that Pakistan has pulled back from the brink of democracy.

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Sattar writes about tahmed "Fools like you got conned into supporting a useless war..."

Tahmed wasn't conned into anything. He supported the war because he supports the decisions of the white elite unconditionally. He considers them god in the flesh. If the white man were to murder his mama he would not say a single word against him, on the other hand he would offer his son and daughter to be sacrificed by them as well. He suffers from a disease that cannot be explained by reason. There was no conning just unconditional support, rationalizations and then when totally stumped, silence and insults against his opponents. You should know this snake better.........

bulleya writes "......if pml-n and ppp simply stay united and do nothing else......the military power will crumble.......they simply need to vote in the same direction on matters related to the military......that's it......there will be, absolutely, nothing the military can do........"

That is a totally ignorant comment, united or not, the military that does not respect the constitution or the lives of people or justice and the rule of law will use its "gun" if need be regardless of the unity of the politicians. Your picture of a helpless military that is invited in or finds a niche within the bickering of politicians is hallmark of a military apologist that want to mask military strength. If the military is so powerless then the civilians can easily reform it why do you need restructuring? The fact is restructuring is needed because the current military has warped into a behemoth that after destroying distorting the institutional structure of the country is fast headed towards destroying this nation state and having its people butchered...

bulleya writes ".....what the military has is unity.....and it is because of this unity that it overpowers every other force that is attempting power in pakistan..."

You forgot the guns, the military has the guns, and unless bigger guns stop them they will not refrain from massacring the entire population if that is what is required to attain their objectives...

--at an abstract level, the following steps need to be taken place to restructure the complete military set up in pakistan......it should be kept in mind that, while, many, if not most of the institutions - civil, govt. and private - have changed since 1947, the military remains totally unchanged.......

--- non-military affairs
1. privatize all 94 business entities owned by the military, through the army welfare trust, fauji foundation, shaheen foundation and bahria foundation

2. allocate all military lands to the provincial govt., so that the military itself does not own any land in pakistan, and only has land allocated to it by the provincial govt......

3. bring the military budget under the ministry of finace, which should debate it in the assembly

4. appoint a very strong civilian oversight committee, from the national assembly and senate, over all military affairs.....all promotions of maj gens and lt. gens. should be approved by this committee for the next ten years.....after which this process should be discontinued and military chiefs should appoint all generals.....

5. bring military law under the civilian judiciary.....all court martials should have a civilian judge.....all military law should be authored by civilians.......and all overlaps which give military authority in civilian areas, should be abolished......

6. physically, the military should be moved out of all major cities, and reloacated in distant cantonments - as it is done in canada and to a great extent in the usa......

military headquarters should be moved from islamabad/pindi to pannu aqil, shorkot port qasim etc......all corps headquarters etc. should be moved out of karachi, lahore and rawalpindi.....all airbases should be moved out of pindi (chaklala), karachi (masroor, shah-rahe-faisal, malir and korangi).....the complete navy sits in karachi, and it should be moved to port qasim etc.....a separate military city can be set up outside karachi, towards the indian coastline to defend karachi......

-- restructuring of the military itself....

will discuss in another reply......it needs to be revamped from pma to the rank of generals......

ijaz_gul #: ...i am always amazed at how powerful everyone imagines the military to be.....

...as i have always argued on this site, the military is not more powerful than the judiciary, the civil society or even the politicians.....

.....what the military has is unity.....and it is because of this unity that it overpowers every other force that is attempting power in pakistan.......

......the moment any other group shows an equal amount of unity, the military will back down......up til now, the military had been able to divide the judiciary, the politicians, the media and civil society, etc......

......however, now, pakistan has matured....the judiciary did not divide totally........the lawyers stuck with the judiciary....and the military is on the verge of losing this battle....in fact, the military has jumped out of the battle, knowing it will lose, and has left musharraf on his own....people should keep in mind that kayani had also accompanied musharraf when they called the chief justice to the army house.......

.......the military has not been able to divide civil society.......the civil society played its cards smartly...instead of coming out into the streets, it waited till the elections and voted out the military, in a comprehensive and historic manner......

......the media did not divide either......

.....this leaves the most important group, and that is the politicians.....in the end it is a battle between the politicians and military for who will run the country......

up til now, the military has played hell with the politicians.......since the death of jinnah.....it has very easily divided the political forces in pakistan; playing one against the other.....all the major poltical leaders of pakistan, have come out interactions with the army......bhutto, nawaz, altaf, maulvis etc......

.....this is the final frontier.....the military has tried like hell to divide the politicians again....it succeeded in dividing pml into two, and ppp, partially, into two.......

.......however, now pml-n and ppp are united; if for no other reason, because they see a common enemy......i am sure the military and bureacracy is trying like anything to divide them.........

......if pml-n and ppp simply stay united and do nothing else......the military power will crumble.......they simply need to vote in the same direction on matters related to the military......that's it......there will be, absolutely, nothing the military can do........

nothing at all.......the military isn't as powerful as people think......it just seems so because it has very strong traditions, which keep it united........

HP,
Yea. Very logical. Thats what I thought.
Cheerios

#502 Posted by ijaz_gul

Sorry, I did not read this post on Beena's board. I haven't even seen many posts on that board. I will check them now.

A. Will BBs policy of Partial appeasement, partial defiance and partial compromise serve the cause of democracy in the long run, or will it provide a germination ground for the proliferators of democracy to become stronger? This view is in contrast to the Purist view of the intellectuals.

There is no way to democracy in Pakistan w/o first working on sharing the powers with the army. So this half cil-Half Mil is the starting point. BB had the right idea. The problem is that the military half is stronger and there is no guarantee that the military would not revoke the agreement. The movements like the Lawyers movement, out of control media and a vigilant middle class can keep the army honest. This requires time and an effort on the part of the civilians to keep the public in the loop. Both AZ and NS, have very little faith in organized opposition such as the Lawyers, and the student bodies. Zardari, when he bad mouths the Lawyers is actually digging his own grave.

B. Will the purist view of Civil Society supported by NS and AWK finally become a victim of the compromises by PPPP.

They don’t support the purest view or know they can’t get to it. The PPP has a situation in hand in Sindh and it is not the MQM. Read Zadari’s statement to BBC where he said that the PPP was told they would be confined to Sindh and they are. The PPP cares about Sindh because that is their base and to keep the power in Sindh, they will compromise with the devil itself. As long as the deal with the NS works, the PPP is with him. I think the forward Block in MLq minus Gujrati clown family offers an option to the PPP so watch NS destroy that with multiple means.

C. If the first two points are accepted, then we would soon see crisis within the ruling alliance. This alliance will be exploited by proliferators for destabilising. Niazi, Arbab, Multan, Karachi and now Jamrud incidents are perhaps linked to this destabilisation effort.

The army would do what it can to keep the alliance in a fragile state while they concede on CJ and next on Musharaf. It is a matter of who has the ability to press. NS wants to press now and AZ is too embroiled in keeping the power. He will go along when he sees a clear signal or is pressed enough.

The democracy requires lots of thinking and persuasions. Time is needed to learn these skills. The army makes it difficult and now everyone has to be on a fast track to learn these skills. So just watch the game!

Hp & Zeemax,
This is what I wrote on Beena's Essay.

"I would agree with your argument that the CJ Issue provided the Lawyers, Civil Society and Political Parties to coalesce. This is in fact the trigger and not the start point. Some of the developments we must lookout for are: -

A. Will BBs policy of Partial appeasement, partial defiance and partial compromise serve the cause of democracy in the long run, or will it provide a germination ground for the proliferators of democracy to become stronger? This view is in contrast to the Purist view of the intellectuals.

B. Will the purist view of Civil Society supported by NS and AWK finally become a victim of the compromises by PPPP.
?
C. If the first two points are accepted, then we would soon see crisis within the ruling alliance. This alliance will be exploited by proliferators for destabilising. Niazi, Arbab, Multan, Karachi and now Jamrud incidents are perhaps linked to this destabilisation effort.

The road is indeed difficult and the summit to democracy steep. In my view, PPPP has missed a chance for true democracy. They have returned from the brink of a revolution."

Re: # 500 zemax

THUS SPOKE ZORASTER.

#499 Posted by HP,

HP. Exactly. These are ISI people. I guess you didn't read through the posts. Do read them.

"Suddenly this Mangal Bagh's Lashkar-e-Islam has popped out of the blue which has a paid army of Rs. 5,000/month (instead of volunteers) and heavy arms."

Zee,
Any reason you are making heroes out of these bandits? They are set up to destroy any chance of reconciliation in the area. More ISI agents. Popped out of the blue...that is a tale tell sign of ISI.

Obviously, set up to get the Pak army or the US army in to the conflict. you really don't have much chance when the the army of your country is ready to make your country the battleground and invite outside forces in to the territory.

Shame on the Pak army for destroying the country that feeds them for monetary benefits.The army is doing this to make it difficult for the civilians but this too will blow up in the army's face.

... but I need to clarify again. That region is not Lawless. The only Law is an unwritten Pakhtunwali.

#492 Posted by dost_mittar,

Khasadars are such good soldiers. It's a great pity musharraf pitted them against their own and they got slaughtered as traitors and Kafirs.

Thanks for clarification, zee. What you say does make sense.

#490 Posted by tahmed32,

Let's just say musharraf could do little about Lal-Masjid because of Swat. And when he eventually did, you saw what happened.

... "I don't give a damn" was the redneck version ... not what the Southern landed gentry would say. But it was taken in the movie because I suppose rednecks watch movies more than they read books.

Just thought I should clarify a bit more.

#491 Posted by dost_mittar,

Ok Sir, so do take my word for it. What Margaret Mitchell wrote was "I don't care a damn".

Thank you.

tahmed32:

If you do not know about khasadars, this means that you haven't read even my Pakistan Dairies. I have a fond memory of the khasadar assigned to me for travel in the Khyber Agency who even let me fondle his gun.

BTW, these khasadars are a hangover from the British period; the poor chaps are not even given the status and privilege of state employees while working in a lawless region.

zeemax:

No, I have neither read the book nor seen the movie (except for some clippings); I have only heard and read that phrase ad nauseaum, though.

#489 if the only "explanation" you can provide to explain why musharraf permitted lal masjid to be turned into a mini-government until he was forced to act by the chinese is that "Allah works in mysterious ways", then let us let Allah also decide which one of us is being obstinate. :-)

#484 Posted by tahmed32,

in other words, you agree that there is no logical explanation for that other than the one I provided.

No. There are many explanations, but you're just too obstinate to use logical arguments with (sorry but true). So I sufficed with this till the next development.

and clever words are merely hollow talk if they are not based on any fact. soemthing you and musharraf and mqm have in common.

#486 those are clever words. i dont recall hearing any "logic" and "reason" from you.

if i am wrong, kindly cut and paste the last time you presented some "logic" or "reason" to me, and my reaction to that. or is it that you are mad at me for criticizing your musharraf and mqm scoundrels?

Tahmed I would consider voting for you in Chowk elections your stubborness in the face of logic and reason is kind of admirable even if it makes me call you mean names :)

Re: # 481 tahmed
Beauracracies in every society are averse to taking risks they let the things fester until every thing gets out of control.Besides musharaf was under the illusion that the leadership of tailban and thier supporters understands the geo-strategic and economic compulsions of pakistan and that they will be grateful to him for saving them from daisy cutters.Its just a thought no tangible proof for it.

#483 "Allah works in mysterious ways"

in other words, you agree that there is no logical explanation for that other than the one I provided.

#481/482 Posted by tahmed32,

The khasadars is the local term for Frontier Constabulary of the Pakistan Army. If you don't know that, you know very little indeed my friend.

Re the rest of your questions, Allah works in mysterious ways.

So we don't agree on that statement in #475, which means we can't go further in our discussion till another development takes place..

Sigh ...

zeemax #478 this is the same big talk that the lal masjid maulvis were doing before musharraf was forced by the chinese to put an end to their mischief.

no doubt local forces (the khasadars, who i never heard of before but assume are some kind of a paramilitary group run by the government and will be glad for any info on them) are on the run at this time - that means nothing in the bigger scheme of things: dreams of carving a ministate out of Pakistan will remain just that. No self-respecting government willingly gives up the writ of the state permanently, although it may permit short term suspensions during times of multiple crises, like nowadays for the democratic government.

#480 zeemax: The original crop was grown by our own people from soviet war days. And the original johnny appleseed was zia, as everyone knows now. Without military support, these groups would be nothing. Even the taliban would have been nowhere in their war against massoud's forces after the soviets left if they did not have the military propping them up as "pro-pakistan" elements.

And you have never explained how lal masjid was allowed to be converted from a madrassah into an arsenal and from there into a mini-government. If musharraf was serious about fighting terrorists, why did he allow all this to happen under his nose?

#479 Posted by tahmed32,

What you're missing is that they weren't allowed to grow by anyone. They just grew despite all efforts. Jamia Hafsa was the catalyst to bring the djinn out of the bottle, which still remains out of the bottle - and the bottle will not be capped unless their basic demands are met, which are being met e.g. in Swat where an Islamic Shariah administration has been agreed upon (wait for the news).

This is what you're missing.

Now, do we agree on the statement in #475?

#475 The "old" lashkars were musharraf's UNWITTING tools, in my view. That is - they may or may not have been aware that they were not the Great Muslim Warriors they imagined themselves to be, but merely being permitted to fester and grow by musharraf since they served his strategy of being seen both within Pakistan and outside Pakistan as being the only alternative to taliban-style rule in Pakistan.

Do you disagree? if so, what am I missing?

tahmed32, do read this. I spoke to a friend from that area and he says Mangal Bagh has agencies' support:

Closure of PA Bara headquarters demanded

Friday, April 18, 2008

BARA: After forcing his opponents to surrender in Jamrud area of the Khyber Agency, head of the militant organisation Lashkar-e-Islam turned his guns towards the political administration (PA) compelling it to close down its Bara headquarters. Announcing the development at his illegal FM radio station, the defiant LI head said he exercised maximum restraints in taking action against the political administration, which he claimed, tried to stop his drive against anti-social elements in the tribal agency. “But following Wednesday’s incident, when Khasadar force impeded our efforts to stop immoral, illegal and un-Islamic activities in Jamrud, the role of the authorities is no more acceptable to us,� he declared.

Mangal Bagh said he had ordered closure of the political administration headquarters forthwith which was later locked out. He announced, “I will no longer protect security forces from anti-social elements in the tribal territory which I have been doing since the launch of the Lashkar-e-Islam�.

The LI chief in his address warned personnel of Khasadar force of Bara tehsil against performance of their duties, failing which, their houses would be razed to the ground besides imposition of a fine of rupees one million.

The personnel of Khasadar Force immediately vacated the Bara tehsil headquarters. The khasadars from Bara serving in the Khyber House, Peshawar, also left their place of duty after the threat by Mangal Bagh. All the offices and checkpoints manned by the Khasadar Force in Khyber Agency were also abandoned. Eyewitnesses said Khasadar men were seen vacating the facility along with their personal belongings before the LI volunteers sealed the same.

Meanwhile, clashes in Jamrud halted after Zahir Shah’s family of the Kokikhel tribe, who were the main rivals in the current unrest in Jamrud, surrendered to the group and furnished guarantees to the LI for their ‘good conduct’ in future. However, the area remained tense amid heavy deployment of the FC personnel and families continued to flee the area throughout the day. Traffic on the Pak-Afghan Highway also remained suspended for the fifth consecutive day with security forces consolidating their position at Takhta Baig checkpoint at the entry to the tribal agency. It was also learnt that the overnight clashes between the groups claimed life of a LI volunteer identified as Akhtar Afridi while nine others were injured in the clashes.

http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=107445

#476 Posted by dost_mittar,

I'm afraid you've only seen the movie, in which the guy does indeed say "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn". But movie adaptations of great books are for dummies (sorry!).

In the book, he says "Frankly, my dear, I don't care a damn" which is the correct expression.

zeemax#468:

"I would just say the same as Margaret Mitchell had Mr. Butler to say "Frankly, I don't care a damn"."

I am disappointed in you. How could you commit such a mistake? It is "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn".

[now, dont say you dont care either way :)]

#474 Posted by tahmed32,

Excellent. Now we can go further but first, just for clarity, we have to confirm our agreement on the following because it is critical for further discussion:

All the previous lashkars were not musharraf's tools but this new one (headed by a certain Mangal Bagh) is VERY likely to be musharraf's tool.

Do we agree on this?

zeemax: So, it is the drug mafia up in arms against the new government, not the boys of fata. I didnt realize that - so thanks for answering a question which I indeed should have asked.

To me this battle is a hopeful sign then - the new government means business when it says law and order is its first priority, and is not prepared to simply by off drug lords like musharraf's corrupt government.

Wrt FATA, I think it is too early to tell. I think the new government is trying a carrot and stick approach - willing to talk, but also preparing to use force if needed. Thus, US is already providing training (and materials?) to FF and there was also news about a joint US-Afghan-Pakistan monitoring operation set up.

So - it seems to me that rather than playing games with Americans as well as the Pakistani public (as musharraf was doing), all indications so far are that the new government is being more straight with both - taking ownership of terrorism as being a Pakistani problem, rather than simply pointing to the US and saying "they give me no choice" as musharraf was doing.

That is the best that I can think. :-) Let me know where you find flaws in logic above, or things I am ignorant of.

#454 Posted by tahmed32, re #451

... these lashkars etc., like jamia hafsa, were musharraf's unwitting tools. ... musharraf's game ... has been exposed ... they no longer have musharraf around ... the game seems to be up for them ...

tahmed32, if you had been an impassioned observer like Yours Truly (meaning me, not our esteemed Urstruly), you would arrive at the conclusion that in fact all the previous lashkars were not musharraf's tools at all - but this new one (headed by a certain Mangal Bagh) is VERY likely to be exactly that.

There was war all over FATA and Swat except Khyber Agency when musharraf was in power. Now when a democratic Government is in power, there is peace and negotiations all over FATA and Swat except Khyber Agency. Why?

Reason is, Khyber Agency is very different from the rest of FATA. It is the hub for smuggling (Bara markets) and narcotics. The tribal sardars are corrupt and criminals. Remember Ayub Afridi, a Senator, who was extradited to USA for heroine trafficking - who had a palace bigger than the white house near Landi Kotal with a helipad? In short, it can be bought. This is why it wasn't in the battle in support of Pak-Taliban Vs musharraf, but is now in battle with the elected Government when the Pak-Taliban are in negotations.

Suddenly this Mangal Bagh's Lashkar-e-Islam has popped out of the blue which has a paid army of Rs. 5,000/month (instead of volunteers) and heavy arms.

You should have asked "Who are these people?" But you didn't. You just repeat the same ole same ole.

Think, Sir!

further to #471: actually, his fascination with the gora color, any nationality. every time there is a news item of some gora converting to islam or something positive said about islam by some gora, this man would rush to post it. this betrays his own inferiority complex where he needs the "gora seal of approval" for islam, rather than discussing it on its own merits.

#469 zeemax: echoboom is a fake. ask him if he sang this song when humbly standing in line with his visa application for canada. and ask him on his fascination with gora arabs and persians, and his lack of interest in anything going on in pakistan.

che guevara: i think you are right. i hope i can count on your vote though when i run for elections on chowk though.

""AaO bhookoa,tumheiN dikhaa-eN jhaankni Hindostaan kee
McDonald aur Pizza Hut ney jis ko itnee shaan dee

I.T sey hUM kamaa kamaa kay khaatay huM sub burger haiN
Gora jub sey chala gaya hai,pait meiN upnay gurbur hain
English apni maa kee bhasha; aur Maata laitee ander haiN
Pim Pita hai, Chudtee maan hai..gahak goray bUnder haiN"

Echoboom, circa April 2008.

(http://www.chowk.com/unplugged/t/52039)

#465 Posted by ferozk,

However, I agree with you that Pakistan will not be better off or worse off because of this aid package.

Good. That's the only point I was trying to make.

Re any (mine?) sense of optimism about the aid, I would just say the same as Margaret Mitchell had Mr. Butler to say "Frankly, I don't care a damn".

I shall refrain from making blanket statements as you ask, but in return you should be a bit more careful about facts, before you make fictitious claims like Pakistan will be FX starved without any frigging US money - which the ignorant hamidm2s are more wont to make.

Re: # 418
I might want to do an article in this 'ZABAAN' thing to add to your funniness!

A timely reminder Feroz.
This carrot and sticks game will continue and gloating over some expected aid or loan from the US is really not adult behavior.

The crisis in Pakistan is much deeper and the establishment might strike earlier than expected. Sardar Ataullah Mengal correctly pointed out that Agencies brought them in power and they can't really go against them.

The issue is bigger than just the CJ or Musharaf. They can come and go but the power sharing structure has lots of hurdles to overcome. I think the ruling alliance needs breathing room to workout a deal with the establishment.

There are two ways to get this breathing room. One is to get the lawyers off the govt's back by bringing the CJ back. The second is to leave the CJ issue and apprise the lawyers of the real situation and get their help in putting pressure on the establishment.The Lawyers leadership and NS both know what the problems are but they are going for an easy victory...which would not be easy in the end.

Let us just hope people have patience to help the leaders get through this critical phase.

re: zeemax # 464

I can understand your sense of optimism about the aid. Zeemaz, a major policy shift like this one will not happen over night. Zeemax, please keep in mind that once Congress starts to debate this policy change, it might not be "free aid" as a lot people in Pakistan think. There will be aditional provisos added to it and we need to wait see what the final package will look like.

However, I agree with you that Pakistan will not be better off or worse of because of this aid package. If on the other hand, the money reaches the people where it is needed the most, then I hope things improve.

Please do not make blanket judgemental statements about people and their views, when their views disgree with your views. :)

Ciao

#463 Posted by ferozk,

I heard the first token tranche of $ 200 million has been deposited yesterday. Is it true?

Re taking years, it will be presented to the congress within a couple of months. In the meantime a ceasefire on both sides continues.

Re Aid, I have written many times before, now established as a fact after change of Government, that US never gave Pakistan a penny for economic aid during musharraf rule - it was given to the Pakistan Army as military aid against Taliban which was used for import of hardware. All foreign exchange requirements of Pakistan economy on the other hand were met through Workers Remittances, FDI from GCC countries, GDRs and Bond issues plus privatizations.

Nothing has changed now and if the new package doesn't materialize, Pakistan will be no better or no worse than before.

Your views are at best quite uninformed, and at worst typical of the Daily Times reading clueless elite.

Prove it if you think otherwise with balance of payments figures since 2002, i.e from where the FX inflows actually arrived in the Ministry of Finance books and where these were spent.

Ciao

Please note the US "offer" of 7 billion dollar non-military aid to Pakistan is an idea. It has, yet, to be formalized into a policy, which means that it must go through the process of committee hearings and then a full debate on the floor of the House of Representatives. Also note, that before it comes to a final vote, it may have "riders" attached to it; strings, which will/may alter the nature of the offer itself significantly. Given the nature of the American legislative system, compromises will have to be made to seek a possible ratification of this bill and hence, this bill might/will change radically from its utopian intentions, as said by Senator Joe Biden - its sponser.

"Offers" like these take years to materialize before the first dollar is deposited into a bank account. Remember the old saying; he who has the gold makes the rules. US will gain more political coverage and leverage over Pakistan this way than it presently has and as said before, given Pakistan's financial problems, Pakistan will need a constant injection of foreign aid to keep its economy aloft and therefore, might not be in a position to reject the final shape of the bill even it turns out against Pakistan's strategic interests.

Therefore, while the nation might be rejoicing on the democratic dividend, it should take into the account the "investment" and the long-term price it will have to pay for this American investment in Pakistan.

Ciao

So Tahmed continues to make an ass out of himself, and Zeemax keeps line in with his usual delusional chootishness. *Yawns*

treetop,

Be a sport. I am only rattling tahmed’s cage a bit; it’s a lot of fun, you know ...

I know we desi’s have our problems … but beautiful, 20 year olds can be had without necessarily going to an escort agency. Although not having to cuddle afterwards is always a plus.

+++

tahmed Sahib, no hard feelings, I hope. Like I said … I am only rattling your cage a bit. Have a quiet, peaceful evening with latest edition of Washington Post :-)

ANGRY over fifty commrades,
once or twice a month get a 20 year old beautiful white chick( escort services),take viagra if neccesary and bang her (no love-making) for couple of hours that shall take your anger and frustrations away.

tahmed,

"Gibberish" is your opinion, which is alright by me.

But fact remains that you got conned into starting a brutal, pointless war. And no smart comment can now make up for it. Re-read #457 and think ...

#457 now you are reduced to talking gibberish...re-read #456, then lets see you come back with more gibberish..

tahmed,

Your silence is a perfectly valid response; no need to try to justify it.

Fools like you got conned into supporting a useless war. This is a crying shame for the society at large. Sorry, but your smart comments are not helpful here ...

There's no need for you to try to prove your lack of interest; it is largely irrelevent. Your posts and mine are for others to see and to think over ... and that ought to be good enough for you.

#455 the truth is that you have dying to exchange posts with me, refusing to take a polite "thanks but no thanks" for an answer. and i have been telling to to buzz off. and now you are trying to save face.. :-)

tahmed,

Your interest is irrelevent; other chowkies may ponder over the point I have made here.

Botton line is this: As you extol virtues of media and information, you forget that, like a blithering fool, you yourself got conned into supporting a brutal war. This is the power of propaganda that war-mongering idiots like you fail to see.

... and this is the simple point I have made here at your expense - that's all ...

#451 zeemax: these lashkars etc., like jamia hafsa, were musharraf's unwitting tools. now of course musharraf's game - i.e. that if goes the terrorists will replace him - has been exposed and the world understands that it was not mush vs terrorists but mush vs pakistani mainstream politicians and civil society all along. So, now they are no ue to him.

Which then leads to the following question: What is the future of the taliban, lashkars etc? Now that they no longer have musharraf around to provide them refuge, and given their poor military and political situation (as per the questions i had in #430), the game seems to be up for them as far as i can tell.

#452 "in all seriousness" i have no interest in your views concerning my views.

tahmed,

Calm down! You admitted to being a fool and I agreed :-) Now what?

In all seroiusness, I only pointed out flaws in your views, and you can't stomach it. You are being too touchy and making a fuss over nothing.

You need to go back to Prozac, you know (that's only a joke, you fool, no need to get worked up!)

#449/450 Posted by tahmed32,

Sure. I'll think about what you wrote. But if you consider Jamia Hafsa a tool of Musharraf, then you also have to consider Waziristan, Swat and now the Lashkar-e-Islam too.

I know you did actually consider Waziristan and Swat as tools of musharraf after Jamia Hafsa, so now you consider Lashkar-e-Islam the same as well.

Hmmm ... have a good break ... till there's another one.

zeemax: have to go. will check back later - but hopefully you will think about some of what i wrote.

#448 zeemax: first, musharraf did not have the people's mandate. his madate came from abuse of his military position.

second, musharraf was replaced because of the courageous struggle of thousands of pakistanis - lawyers, journalists, and later political parties. jamia hafsa were merely tools of musharraf to put this movement offbalance - and he moved against them only when the jamia hafsa went beyond their limits and attached chinese women - which brought the chinese down to pull musharraf's ears. (we have been thru this before, so you are free to disagree if you wish).

#443 Posted by tahmed32,

taking up arms to take attention away from the people's mandate.

If the Jamia Hafsa girls had not taken up dandas against musharraf, there would never have been a public mandate on 18 Feb 2008 in the first place.

But you'll need to think about that for a while.

#444 i could abuse you too the way you have been doing past few posts. but that would reduce me to your level, you pathetic man. so i'll simply say again: have a nice day. i have no interest in wasting time with you.

i am on chowk because I am chatting with zeemax. so kindly quit trying to start a "discussion" with me. i know you too well to waste time with you discussing anything.

{"Let me narrate a very personal story when I was 24. At the Pizza Hut Gulshan, Karachi. I organized a birthday brunch for friends – for about good 40 folks I spend about Rs. 10000 on pizzas and whatnot – when we all finished and I went out; I saw a baby girl dying from hunger. That day my life changed. I made a pledge to lead a very ‘ordinary life’ and Alhumdullah I am leading one – with skeletons attached."}

IB Sahib,
I have no idea about the nature of the debate or the points involved. I noticed this post of yours and I just had to compliment you on your truly Islamic outlook and your generosity in sharing this personal anecdote with us. I salute you and just want you to know how much I respect you for your recognition and compassion for our fellow humans' needs. Thank you.

{"Let me narrate a very personal story when I was 24. At the Pizza Hut Gulshan, Karachi. I organized a birthday brunch for friends – for about good 40 folks I spend about Rs. 10000 on pizzas and whatnot – when we all finished and I went out; I saw a baby girl dying from hunger. That day my life changed. I made a pledge to lead a very ‘ordinary life’ and Alhumdullah I am leading one – with skeletons attached."}

IB Sahib,
I have no idea about the nature of the debate or the points involved. I noticed this post of yours and I just had to compliment you on your truly Islamic outlook and your generosity in sharing this personal anecdote with us. I salute you and just want to know how much I respect you for your recognition and compassion for our fellow humans' needs. Thank you.

I agree you are a fool, but for a different reason. Don't be too upset; eventually it will all make sense!

#442 zeemax:

the electoral process is the process to participate in the formulating a people's mandate.

taking up arms against a democratic government is a process to take attention away from the people's mandate. and those doing it are mere criminals.

#440 Posted by tahmed32,

to put their issues on the agenda, rather than focus on the people's mandate?

err ... you always forget tamed32 that they're people too and they have a share in the popular mandate.

#439 re-read #430.

#438 put pressure for what? for the democratically elected government to put their issues on the agenda, rather than focus on the people's mandate?

tahmed,

I agree you are a fool indeed, but cited an entirely different reason to arrive at this conclusion.

Come back when you have pondered over getting conned into a useless war. Such reflection may help you see straight. And while at it, avoid "worrying about the future of mankind" ;-)

#437 Posted by tahmed32,

They don't want to hold ground. They just want to make a point and put great pressure, just like Lal-Masjid, Waziristan, Swat ... the bombs in Urban centers - etc.

#433 kindly re-read #430 and then tell me what part you have difficulty understanding.

zeemax: Fine. But, in light of the questions I had for you below, do you think they can hold the ground?

... no doubt they also have the Pakistan Ambassador to Afghanistan, who was abducted in Khyber Agency a month ago.

tahmed32,

Okay, more details now re this Lashkar-e-Islam. It is a Lal-Masjid style vigilante group numbering some 10,000 which has captured the Afghanistan-Pakistan highway and closed it since 5 days, and fighting with the Shinwaris and the Kukikhels for closure of the narcotics trade in Khyber Agency on the edge of Peshawar near Bara markets. They already have control of Landi Kotal and Jamrud.

To even think some people were contemptuous of a bunch of teenage girls in Burqas ...

tahmed,

You buckle too quickly when taken to the task. This makes you a fool indeed, but for an entirely different reason than the one you cited :-)

If nothing else, ponder over how you yourself were conned into supporting a brutal, sorry war ... all through manipulated information. Till you do that, please, no more lecutres on marvels of the information age ...

#427 GT

[Thus, today, competition for political space has lead to "Kashmiri Nationalism" being defined solely on the basis of Islam across the entire political spectrum.]

Um, professor, WHEN did "Kashmiri Nationalism" have Hindus as active participants?

Eh?

[And it is precisely because of this that a basis for "negotiation" has eluded the "problem".]

I think you Muslims should stop dreaming and get this - THERE WILL BE NO NEGOTIATIONS. Not now, not ever. Read up on the history of Kashmir. You cheap arab-wannabees are not getting it. The only leverage you guys had was uncle Sam when he needed you. Those days are gone. In fact, we Indians should get back what is rightly ours - POK. And if the BJP comes to power and stays in power long enough, hopefully some politician will make this his "issue". It will be a VERY popular issue with the Indian public.

The Nilamata Purana describes the Valley's origin from the waters, Ka means "water" and Shimir means "to desiccate". Hence, Kashmir stands for "a land desiccated from water". There is also a theory which takes Kashmir to be a contraction of Kashyap-mira or Kashyapmir or Kashyapmeru, the "sea or mountain of Kashyapa", the sage who is credited with having drained the waters of the primordial lake Satisar, that Kashmir was before it was reclaimed. The Nilamata Purana gives the name Kashmira to the Valley considering it to be an embodiment of Uma and it is the Kashmir that the world knows today. The Kashmiris, however, call it Kashir, which has been derived phonetically from Kashmir, as pointed out by Aurel Stein in his introduction to the Rajatarangini.

In the Rajatarangini, a history of Kashmir written by Kalhana in the 12th century, it is stated that the valley of Kashmir was formerly a lake. This was drained by the great rishi or sage, Kashyapa, son of Marichi, son of Brahma, by cutting the gap in the hills at Baramulla (Varaha-mula). When Kashmir had been drained, Kashyapa asked Brahmans to settle there. This is still the local tradition, and in the existing physical condition of the country, we may see some ground for the story which has taken this form. The name of Kashyapa is by history and tradition connected with the draining of the lake, and the chief town or collection of dwellings in the valley was called Kashyapa-pura name which has been plausibly identified with the Kao-1r6.nupos of Hecataeus (apud Stephen of Byzantium) and Kaspatyros of Herodotus (3.102, 4.44). Kashmir is the country meant also by Ptolemy's Kao-ir,~pta.

Kashmir was one of the major centre of Sanskrit scholars. According to Mahabharata evidence,[3] the Kambojas had ruled over Kashmir during epic times and that it was a Republican system of government under the Kamboj.[4] The capital city of Kashmir (Kamboj) during epic times was Rajapura e.g. Karna-Rajapuram-gatva-Kambojah-nirjitastava.[5][6] Epic Rajapura has been identified with modern Rajauri.[7] Later, the Panchalas are stated to have established their sway. The name Peer Panjal, which is a part of modern Kashmir, is a witness to this fact. Panjal is simply a distorted form of the Sanskritic tribal term Panchala. The Muslims had prefixed the word " peer " to it in memory of one Siddha Faqir and the name thence-after is said to have changed into Peer Panjal.

The Mauryan emperor Ashoka is often credited with having founded the city of Srinagar. Kashmir was once a Buddhist seat of learning, perhaps with the SarvÄ?stivÄ?dan school dominating. East and Central Asian Buddhist monks are recorded as having visited the kingdom. In the late 4th century AD, the famous Kuchanese monk KumÄ?rajÄ«va, born to an Indian noble family, studied DÄ«rghÄ?gama and MadhyÄ?gama in Kashmir under Bandhudatta. He later becoming a prolific translator who helped take Buddhism to China. His mother JÄ«va is thought to have retired to Kashmir. VimalÄ?ká¹£a, a SarvÄ?stivÄ?dan Buddhist monk, travelled from Kashmir to Kucha and there instructed KumÄ?rajÄ«va in the Vinayapiá¹­aka.



[India - Pakistan relations are actually a second order problem. And a "nation" like India is not ready for multiple "constitutions", at least not for the next 10 years.]

Um, professor, so AFTER the next 10 years, India might be "ready for multiple constitutions"?

[If the BJP comes to power, it will show (false) sympathy by acting as if it is in favor of a referendum. With the added clause that all Indian Muslims, and only Indian Muslims vote.]

This "referendum" thing is only a Muslim wet dream. As an Indian I can tell you, ANY party that does this, will NEVER come to power again. I think instead of having all these wet dreams, Muslims should migrate to some place they feel they can identify with. Move to Kazaksthan, for example. WE DON"T WANT YOU. LEAVE. WE ARE TIRED OF THE CONSTANT MOANING AND GROANING AND COMPLAINING. JUST GO. IF YOU ARE DESCENDED FROM FOREIGN BARBARIANS ANYWAY, ALL THE MORE REASON TO LEAVE. JUST LEAVE. YOU GUYS ARE LIKE PARASITES IN ANY DAMN COUNTRY. SUCKING THE COUNTRY HOLLOW FROM INSIDE WITH THE CONSTANT NON-STOP VIOLENCE AND DISSATISFACTION AND
DIVISIVE ACTIVITIES. IN EVERY COUNTRY. PEOPLE OF NO OTHER RELIGION ARE LIKE YOU GUYS. NO ONE. I HAVE HAD PARSEE FRIENDS, CHRISTIAN FRIENDS - NOBODY IS LIKE YOU GUYS. YOU GUYS ARE LIKE MINDLESS INDOCTRINATED ZOMBIES PROGRAMMED TO SPREAD MISERY AND UNHAPPINESS. WON'T LET ANYONE BE HAPPY.

WHAT A DAMN CURSE!

zeemax #425 (shaking my head from side to side) Why do you persist in believing that the Taliban are any match for Pakistani forces?

Is there a Taliban Air Force?
Is there a Taliban Tank Division (or even a single, moth-eaten Taliban Tank?
Is there any popular support for the Taliban?
Is there any international support for the Taliban?
Is there a moral cause that the Taliban are fighting for that any sane individual could relate to?

Reflect on these please.

sattar2 429: if it is foolish to not get into a "discussion" with you, then i am indeed a fool. Have nice day. :-)

tahmed (#403),

Don’t blame me, you fool; your own posts underscore your credibility gap. And you still seem hung up on Islamic issues after all this time …

Your reasoning that … �since Chowk is a part of media, and Chowk is not controlled by anyone, this proves that media has no outside influence� … says it all. Are you for real?

Information you were fed was manipulated at the highest levels … and you got conned into supporting a brutal, useless war. It is now pointless for you to discuss virtues of media coverage and free speech. Reflect on this, you idiot …

You see the tree but not the forest. And that’s the travesty of (drum roll) … worrying too much about the future of mankind :-) May I suggest some Prozac instead?

treetop #404

["Its not the lack of arguments its the fear that you will dig out some lenthy article from some where or write a monologue of twisted logic that iwill have to read unwillingly"]

Yeah. It's either that, or you don't have an argument left.

Lying/deception and Islam are synonymous.

#424 Posted by ferozk:

"The Kashmir issue will settled not because the people wish it, but because it has ceased to be important in their lives."

The above statement is based on two assumptions: (a) The Kashmir issue CAN be settled; (b) It CAN cease to be important in people's lives.

Both assumptions are perhaps valid in the long run, something that we do not care about. The pertinent question, therefore is, whether these assumptions are valid in the short run, say in the next 10 years or so. The answer is NO.

1. The unwashed Kashmiri individual does not give a fig as to whether Kashmir belongs to India or Pakistan. This is as long as her day to day life is undisturbed. An important part of this day to day life her religion. It defines her social network (I usually call networks "tribes") and provides hope for the future. Hope is what allows her to live a dignified life and we know that dignity is something that one does not part with readily. A perceived threat, i.e. the threat need not necessarily be real, to her religion is therefore a threat to her socio-economic network and dignity.

2. It is a common ploy of opposition parties/politicians, in most democracies, to try to come to power by differentiating themselves from those who presently wield power. For example Obama and Hillary may not have many political differences to talk about. But by drawing on the fact that one's opponent is a Washington insider, one tries to impress on the fact that he/she (given a chance) can achieve something "better" than what one has at present. This need not be true only in democracies, but let us stick to it since this is the most optimistic scenario. In India it is no different. Except for the fact that like the Kashmiris, mentioned in 1., almost all Indians care for their socio-economic networks which are often based on caste/religion/language platforms. Of late, regional parties have come to power in different parts of India on platforms based on caste and language. The differences between the center and periphery in India, a multi caste/religion country, is thus more real than in the US. Moreover, the regional parties have persisted. This implies that they have provided sustenance to the networks in their states. Otherwise, they would have died a democratic death. I do not see them vanishing in the next 10 years or so. These parties will struggle for their existence. In particular, they will make sure that local networks do not get swallowed up by broader "markets". They won't succeed in the long run, but they are here to stay for the next 10 years or so.

3. Kashmir is similar to the rest of India in the sense of 2. They were perhaps the first to differentiate themselves from the "center" on the basis of "Kashmiri Nationalism" or language. But Kashmiris can also differentiate themselves from the center on the basis of religion, another factor that sustains local networks. Coupled is the fact that a certain brand of political ideology is strongly woven into (or is being woven into) what stands for Islam today. Thus, today, competition for political space has lead to "Kashmiri Nationalism" being defined solely on the basis of Islam across the entire political spectrum. Not only in Kashmir, but all over India. This is going to stay in the short run, just like regional politics is going to stay in India.

4. But where is the problem? After all a regional party called, say, the Islamic Party of Kashmir can be formed and it can function like the DMK functions in Tamil Nadu and there would be no Kashmir "problem". The issue is that today's brand of Islam will ask for a "constitution" of their own. And it is precisely because of this that a basis for "negotiation" has eluded the "problem". India - Pakistan relations are actually a second order problem. And a "nation" like India is not ready for multiple "constitutions", at least not for the next 10 years.

5. Above, I have given you the theory. Based on it let me make a prediction. The usual law and order problems, Pakistan's interference, Urstruly's rants etc. are 10 year predictions that even arjun can make. Here is my prediction: If the BJP comes to power, it will show (false) sympathy by acting as if it is in favor of a referendum. With the added clause that all Indian Muslims, and only Indian Muslims vote.

Re: # 413 zee

Well - it says, the hellfires will be "curbed"... does not say it will be stopped... and you know yankees, they lie and deceive all the time... so don't get your hopes up...

But you may get the $7 bn... that's the blood money...

tahmed32,

But in any case, I think it may be too late. There's a new group named Lashkar-e-Islam which appears to have split from Pakistani Taliban, taken over Khyber Agency, and there's now fighting around Hyatabad, Peshawar. Residents have vacated Hyatabad (If you know Peshawar, you will know Hyatabad is in Peshawar).

Or maybe it's a tactic by Taliban to encircle Peshawar from both the Kohat end as well as the Khyber pass end. This is as of last night. Not many details yet.

re: Dost_Mittar

The Kashmir issue will settled not because the people wish it, but because it has ceased to be important in their lives. I have no doubt that it will solved, but it might be a big surprise to the patriots on both sides that they will not get all they had hoped for in the matter. The most logical outcome will be to formalize the present status quo - the Line of Control - into an international border and end the issue for once and for all.

As to my old hometown, isn't the snow a bit late? Then again, I remember the snow in late May also...

BTW; I was there when Trudeau (sp?)and Levasque (sp?) were battling it out and was south of the border, when the second plebiscite was held and thank God, the rest of the nation did not buy into a federal version of Bill 101.

Ciao

#421 Posted by tahmed32,

Really? I thought he was a great proponent of daisy cutters. Or maybe by that he meant the gardner's tool for pruning the daisies in his front patch.

re: HP

I owe you a reply and I will post as soon as I can figure out the new loadshedding schedule and have some time to frame a proper reply to your generous explanation.

The problem is that when you try to squeeze in words between power outages, the intent is often garbled. :)

Ciao

#419 zeemax: Those phrases you used (hellfire missiles etc.) were the one arjun uses to live out his pandit-insane fantasies, not hamidm. I dont think hamidm, despite his regrettable lota-tendencies, ever called for the killing of innocent people.

#417 dm: Sir jee depends who this "one" is that you are talking about. If you mean the conventional wisdom desi babus - they are always 30 years behind times anyway (that is why we still have people arguing about 1947 issues on chowk), so it is no surprise that they are thinking of conventional mass media.

But I think I did the right thing in taking a broader view of the media consistent with today's realities by bringing in the internet. Only by seeing things from this broader perspective will you understand why in fact the US is the world leader in freedom and human liberty. Despite anti-US propaganda from the same people who then rush to put their investments in US control and (as per the example of ICANN) trust the US to manage the internet rather than one another.

#415 Posted by tahmed32,

No, I meant hamidm2. I don't care much for cockroaches and monkeys. Read today's Khaleej Times re the Swedish's findings that they after drugging, raping, drowning and throttling the British teen, the bharti doctors performing the autopsy sold her kidneys and liver.

And I thought the selling of coffins of their war dead was bad.

#382 Posted by tahir
What is MQM brothers? Mohajir Quota Movement?
#383 Posted by IB
MQM = Muthida Qaumi Movement , defender of ahle-zuban.

Actually both are right.

MQM = Muhajir Qaumiat-e-ahl-e-zubaan (though in the licking sense and not the literary sense) Movement. The word Mutt-hida means hideous mutts in their zabaan, and their sole demand is preferential job quotas over the locals as if these ahl-e-zabaans descended from Heaven instead of Bihar.

tahmed#401:

Sirji, our discussion was about the US media and you have turned it into a debate on whether or not the Internet is controlled by the US. This is a good example of taking an argument to a logical absurdity and debate that absurdity. Regardless of the validity of your point (and I do not think that the Internet is or can be controlled by anyone, including the US), when one is talking of the US media, one generally thinks of the conventional mass media, such as TV networks and newspapers.

treetop#390:

Your answer is here: http://chowk.com/articles/13490

zeemax: i think you meant arjun, not hamidm. and this is terrible news for arjun. please break it to him gently..

In answering Jay-Pee's accusation I have THIS:

Dear Jay Pee,

You surely did not have Fauji Corn Flakes for breakfast, did you? Please quote where the Qur'an condemns killing a blasphemer?

The Bible does say in 24:16
And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death.

Read the Qur'an to understand Islam, and stop wasting time on Wicked-Pedia...

The truth will liberate you.

Shanti.

Well?

Sorry hamidm2. No more hellfires and daisy cutters from your taxes but 'non-military aid'. Are you going to protest on the Hill?

US offers Pakistan government $7bn in non-military aid to fight terrorism

· Civilian cabinet told drone air strikes will be curbed · New strategy marks break with Musharraf and army

* Julian Borger in Islamabad
* The Guardian,
* Thursday April 17 2008

The US has promised to curb air strikes by drones against suspected militants in Pakistan, as part of a joint counter-terrorism strategy agreed with the new civilian government in Islamabad, the Guardian has learned.

That strategy will be supported by an aid package potentially worth more than $7bn (£3.55bn), which is due to go before Congress for approval in the next few months.

The package would triple the amount of American non-military aid to Pakistan, and is aimed at "redefining" the bilateral relationship, US officials say.

Pakistan will also be given a "democracy dividend" of up to $1bn, a reward for holding peaceful elections and forming a coalition government. Of that, $200m could be approved in the next few days.

The aid package, being put together by the Democratic senator Joseph Biden, will mark a decisive break in US policy on Pakistan, which for much of the past nine years focused on President Pervez Musharraf and the Pakistani military as Washington's primary partners in the "war on terror". Officials in Washington said yesterday that the shift had already been made.

"Senator Biden wants to show the relationship is much broader than a military one, and that we are willing to sustain it over time," one of the senator's senior aides said yesterday.

A US administration official said: "Each day Musharraf's influence becomes less and less. Civilians are in control. People aren't meeting with Musharraf any more ... we are very pleased with the new civilian government."

Pakistani officials say much of the new counter-terrorism aid will be spent on civilian law enforcement institutions, such as the interior ministry, the intelligence bureau and the federal investigation agency, rather than being channelled almost exclusively through the army and the military-run Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) organisation.

The new government says it has also won American support for its policy of opening a dialogue with Pashtun tribes along the Afghan border, led by an ethnic Pashtun group, the Awami National party, that is part of the government coalition.

The new understanding on air strikes by US Predator drones is seen in Islamabad as a critical benchmark for the new relationship.

In January senior US intelligence officials flew to Islamabad and struck an agreement with Musharraf to give the American military a freer hand in the use of Predators against targets in Pakistan's tribal areas, which have become havens for al-Qaida and other foreign jihadists as well as Taliban forces fighting Nato forces and the government in Afghanistan.

The subsequent increase in Predator strikes - estimates of the number range up to eight - caused outrage in Pakistan. Britain also broke with Washington over the reliance on air strikes often guided by uncertain intelligence.

Pakistani officials say they have been given assurances by Washington that there will be close consultation with the civilian government, not with Musharraf, before any future strikes.

However, the use of Predators is held as a closely guarded secret and US intelligence is reluctant to share information about targets, and there is some scepticism in Islamabad over whether the deal will stick.

"We'll have to take them at their word, won't we," said the new information minister, Sherry Rahman, in an interview in Islamabad. She added that Washington's previous emphasis on ties to Musharraf and the Pakistani military "hasn't provided the results that were supposed to happen on the ground".

The US has given Pakistan about $10bn in military aid during the past seven years, but it has not diminished the Taliban insurgency in Afghanistan, while Pakistani extremism is also on the rise. Some officials in Washington believe most of the money has been used to build up Pakistan's conventional forces for use in a possible future conflict with India, rather than spent on counter-insurgency.

Furthermore, much of the money being used for counter-terrorism is being misspent, both Pakistan and US government officials say. As an example they say that Musharraf distributed the $25m reward money for capturing or killing "high value" al-Qaida targets in the form of an "inverted pyramid".

"A few thousand would go to the police constable on the ground who actually spotted the guy, but the millions go to the generals up the chain," a Pakistani official said. No wonder, he added, that the tip-offs stopped coming in and the number of high-profile arrests dropped.

#411 damn!! foiled again!! :-(

Re: # 410 tahmed
thank you sir,but your kindness is not enough to lead me into your camp.

treetop to Ajeya #404 "Its not the lack of arguments its the fear that you will dig out some lenthy article from some where or write a monologue of twisted logic that iwill have to read unwillingly"

You are a wise man sir. It similar concerns that prompted me in #403 to wish Mr. Ajeya a happy 2009. :-)

Re: # 406
If someone can assure you of 72 virgins,dont you think its something to die for?

Re: # 405
I am not taking the bait...sorry.

Re: # 405
I am not taking the bait...sorry.

#403 tahmed32

tahmed,

Nobody is buying your egalitarian posturing. You have revealed too much of yourself over the years. You are a true Islamist.

There are no Houris or Ghilmans in your future, by the way. Also, Muhammad was lying about the winged creature. He just controlled stupid Arabs and did as he wanted, while he was alive. It's true, tahmed. It's true. There is NOTHING like that. Nothing. It's ALL made up. ALL of it. Sorry.

:-(

#404 treetop

[Its not the lack of arguments its the fear that you will dig out some lenthy article from some where or write a monologue of twisted logic that iwill have to read unwillingly.]

This is what people say when they cannot counter an argument.

Your argument was:

In 1948 it was india who went to UN and signed what you call a SUBSEQUENT un treaty,and this treaty calls for a plebicite.After signing this treaty all the previous treaties become null and void.

To which my reply was:

That is because EARLIER TO THAT, Pakistan had VIOLATED the treaty IT had signed in 1947. India did what it had to, under the circumstances. It is like saying, "Why did you make a deal with the robber?" Well because he was holding me at gunpoint BEFORE I made the deal.

and

Also, if Pakiland had violated the treaty it signed in 1947, WHY SHOULD INDIA respect the treaty it signed in 1948?

And no, BOTH sides are NOT to blame. Pakiland committed the FIRST VIOLATION, and therefore is guilty for precipitating the crisis.

Lengthy article nothing, you just don't have anything to counter this with, and therefore are resorting to this. Muhammad would be proud of you, whether you believe in his houris or not.

[BTW i am not held hostage by any religion or idealogy,i am a liberal even by the westeren standards. ]

No you are not. If you were, you would admit it when you have lost in an argument, or at least respond with logic, instead of behaving in a typically Islamic way.

Ajey
Its not the lack of arguments its the fear that you will dig out some lenthy article from some where or write a monologue of twisted logic that iwill have to read unwillingly.BTW i am not held hostage by any religion or idealogy,i am a liberal even by the westeren standards.

#402: i have already written my last idiot-post to you for the year 2008, as you may recall from what i wrote a few weeks back.

So, once again, I wish you a happy new year for 2009 in advance. :-)

PS: you may wish to exchange notes with your muslim brother sattar on my lack of credibility and other weaknesses, since he also has trouble taking "thanks but no thanks" for an answer.

#401 tahmed32

tahmed,

I'm afraid you have lost your credibility for being a egalitarian long time ago. Your gut-level panicky reaction to suggestions about Muslims "converting" to Hinduism have betrayed your deep Abrahamic tribal tendencies. People can change, but not that much, and not usually.

#385 dostmittar: So you were assuming that the internet is no longer in US control and did not accept my assertion that it does. I did not make that assertion without any basis - the fact that domain names (e.g. www.chowk.com) are unique should indicate to you that someone is managing a centralized database to ensure uniqueness. And that manager happens to be ICANN, a non-profit based in California that has been commissioned by the US government to conduct this task. Some years ago, at a conference in Tunis, a major effort was made to wrest control from the US and internationalize this control - but it essentially failed - yet another example that when all is said and done, countries around the world trust the US far more than they trust one another.

As for my ancestors inventing the zero, I'll take credit for that along with credit for inventing the internet. That credit being the right of any individual who sees himself as heir to everything accomplished by the human race, and not just one group within it. :-)

It is indeed interesting how Muslims, when they lose in an argument, are never honorable enough to say that they were wrong, but instead, sneak away, and then come back another day to start repeating the EXACT same lies.

Muhammad's followers indeed!

Hey Treetop, do you have anything logical to say in response, or are you going to be a liar and hypocrite like all other Muslims - slink out today, and come back another day to repeat the same lies and misinformation?

#396 treetop

Also, if Pakiland had violated the treaty it signed in 1947, WHY SHOULD INDIA respect the treaty it signed in 1948?

And no, BOTH sides are NOT to blame. Pakiland committed the FIRST VIOLATION, and therefore is guilty for precipitating the crisis.

#396 treetop

[In 1948 it was india who went to UN and signed what you call a SUBSEQUENT un treaty,and this treaty calls for a plebicite.After signing this treaty all the previous treaties become null and void. ]

That is because EARLIER TO THAT, Pakistan had VIOLATED the treaty IT had signed in 1947. India did what it had to, under the circumstances. It is like saying, "Why did you make a deal with the robber?" Well because he was holding me at gunpoint BEFORE I made the deal.

Re: # 394 395
In 1948 it was india who went to UN and signed what you call a SUBSEQUENT un treaty,and this treaty calls for a plebicite.After signing this treaty all the previous treaties become null and void.

And let me quote the whole article here(http://www.mainstreamweekly.net/article179.html):

If Kashmir is Disputed so can be Pakistan?

Monday 25 June 2007, by Suvrokamal Dutta

For several years now Pakistan and its dictatorial regimes have questioned the accession of the State of Jammu and Kashmir to India by stating and restating it again and again that the State of Jammu and Kashmir is a disputed territory. By applying the same logic the identity of Pakistan and its existence as a sovereign political state can be questioned by India and the Indian Government by taking the logic from International Law itself.

As per the Vienna Convention of the Law of Treaties of 1969, which is an international legal document, a material breach of a bilateral or a multilateral treaty by one party entitles the other party to terminate a treaty. Under this clause, if applied in the Indian context, the Partition of India Plan, or the Lord Mountbatten Plan of 1947 as it is generally referred to, was an international treaty signed between the then British Government, the Muslim League and the Indian National Congress under which it was agreed that the British would leave India on the zero hour at the midnight of August 14, 1947 and British India would be partitioned into two new sovereign states—India and Pakistan.

On June 3, 1947, Lord Mountbatten announced his Plan. The salient features were:

1) Mountbatten’s formula was to divide India but retain maximum unity. The country would be partitioned but so would Punjab and Bengal, so that the limited Pakistan that emerged would meet both the Congress and League’s position to some extent.

2) The Mountbatten Plan sought to effect an early transfer of power on the basis of Dominion Status to two successor states, India and Pakistan.

3) A referendum was to be held in the NWFP to ascertain whether the people in the area wanted to join India or not. The princely states would have the option of joining either of the two dominions or to remain independent. The provinces of Assam, Punjab and Bengal were also to be divided. A Boundary Commission was to be set up to determine the boundaries of these States.

The clause three of the agreement is significant where it is mentioned that the princely states would have the right to join India or Pakistan or remain independent if they wanted. This Plan was accepted by all the three parties—the British, the Muslim League and the Congress—as all three of them were signatories to it. By signing it all the parties agreed to all the clauses and salient features of the Plan as such and it implied that none of the parties would violate any of the clauses of the document. But the first to violate this clause was Pakistan itself when it attacked the sovereign state of Jammu and Kashmir and wanted to annex it by force in 1948. When Pakistan had attacked that state the sovereign ruler of that state had requested the Indian Government for help and signed the deed of merger with India which was also ratified by the provincial assembly of the state of Jammu and Kashmir. As per the Mountbatten Plan of which the Muslim League was a signatory, the princely states of India had the right to join India if it wanted and the state of Kashmir had exercised that option. This treaty between India and the state of Jammu and Kashmir came into existence because of the earlier treaty of the Indian Independence Act. As such if the Mountbatten Plan is an international treaty, so is the accession of the state of Jammu and Kashmir with the state of India. If Pakistan can so shamelessly violate and refuse to accept the accession of Kashmir with India, then India can also question the existence and creation of Pakistan based on the clause of the Vienna Convention that a material breach of a treaty by one party entitles the other party to terminate a treaty. Pakistan has violated this clause since the beginning by not accepting that part of the Mountbatten Plan in relation to the princely states as it is clear from the case of Kashmir. As such India has every right to question the existence of Pakistan. The day India does this, the state of Pakistan becomes disputed if the Pakistani logic on Kashmir is applied on them by India.

Secondly, as per the Vienna Convention of the Law of Treaties of 1969, the impossibility of performance of a treaty is also a valid ground for its termination. Article 61 of the Vienna Convention says this. As per the impossibility performance test, a treaty becomes invalid if one of the existing party shows that it is incapable of implementing the treaty in practical circumstances. Pakistan, by not implementing or by violating that clause of the Mountbatten Plan in relation to the princely states by trying to occupy the state of Jammu and Kashmir by force and annexing a part of its territory illegally, has demonstrated to the world that it was incapable of implementing the Mountbatten Plan in its letter and spirit; as such the impossibility of performance of a treaty would apply in this case. In such a situation India has the right to nullify that part of the Mountbatten Plan which mentions about the creation of Pakistan.

It is true that the Vienna Convention does allow treaties to invalidate the existence of sovereign states or changes of political boundaries between states but in this case this rule would not apply because Pakistan had violated the very clauses of that international agreement which had created the state of Pakistan.

Since Pakistan was the initial violator, as such it cannot question the Indian role in relation to East Pakistan.





THE Government of Pakistan can argue in relation to the princely state of Junagadh or that of Hyderabad. But then the Mountbatten Plan did talk about referendum, popular will or the accession of the princely state with the state of India or Pakistan in its clauses. India had exercised its option in relation to these two states under the Mountbatten Plan as the majority will of the people of these two states wanted to join with India. As such Pakistan cannot question the Indian role in these two states.

Again the questionable identity of Pakistan can be questioned by the concept of Maxim Rebus Sic Stantibus in the doctrine of International Law. Which means if the fundamental or material circumstances under which a treaty is concluded change, then this change becomes a basis for the avoidance or change or termination of a treaty.

Edward Collins writes in his book International Law in a Changing World, 1969: “It is widely recognised that if fundamental changes in the circumstances upon which a treaty rests take place, these changes may be invoked as a ground for the termination of the treaty. The principle known generally as the doctrine of Clausula Rebus Sic Stantibus is based on the assumption that there is an implied clause in every treaty that provides that the agreement is binding only so long as the material circumstances on which it rests remain unchanged.�

Taking a leaf out of the doctrine of Maxim Rebus one can question the identity of Pakistan. Looking into the past misdeeds of Pakistan one can very well argue that there were fundamental changes in the circumstances upon which the Mountbatten Plan was laid; these had changed the moment Pakistan had attacked the then independent state of Jammu and Kashmir without any provocation from the side of Jammu and Kashmir. As such the material circumstances on which the Mountbatten Plan was based changed the moment Pakistan violated the clause of the Plan in relation to the princely states when it tried to occupy Kashmir by force. Thus taking help from this doctrine India can well dispute the existence of Pakistan.

When the identity of Pakistan itself can be questioned, it would be advisable for Pakistan to stop its claim on the State of Jammu and Kashmir once and for all and hand over that part of the territory of the State of Jammu and Kashmir which includes the so-called Azad Kashmir, Northern Areas and the areas seceded by Pakistan to China, to India once and for all as these genuinely belong to India after the accession of the state to India in 1948. It is advisable for the Pakistan President to initiate this process of handing over the illegally occupied territories back to India instead of advancing new plans in relation to the so-called disputed State of Jammu and Kashmir. This is the minimum which Pakistan should do to wash out a part of its past misdeeds if it really wants the peace process to be successful. The ball lies in the Pakistani court now.

#393 dost_mittar

[But I think that the wikipedia reference is somewhat inaccurate. The "parties" did not have to come to any agreement over princely states. The British had the paramountcy over the States and it was for them to decide what to do after they left India. They decided not to pass on that paramountcy to the successor states but,instead, freed the States from their Paramountcy and told them that they were free to join either successor Dominion or remain independent but adviced them to join one or the other union.]

Yes, exactly. Let me quote here to make my point:
"The Partition of India Plan, or the Lord Mountbatten Plan of 1947 as it is generally referred to, was an international treaty signed between the then British Government, the Muslim League and the Indian National Congress....The clause three of the agreement is significant where it is mentioned that the princely states would have the right to join India or Pakistan or remain independent if they wanted. This Plan was accepted by all the three parties—the British, the Muslim League and the Congress—as all three of them were signatories to it. By signing it all the parties agreed to all the clauses and salient features of the Plan as such and it implied that none of the parties would violate any of the clauses of the document. But the first to violate this clause was Pakistan itself when it attacked the sovereign state of Jammu and Kashmir and wanted to annex it by force in 1948. "

So you see, they HAD sigend an agreement that SPECIFICALLY considers what should happen to Jammu and Kashmir. And they violated it.

As Muslims ALWAYS do.

THIS, and NOT the subsequent UN Treaty, was the FIRST agreement signed between the parties.

ajeya:

Okay, I thought that you were referring to a Kashmir-specific agreement.

But I think that the wikipedia reference is somewhat inaccurate. The "parties" did not have to come to any agreement over princely states. The British had the paramountcy over the States and it was for them to decide what to do after they left India. They decided not to pass on that paramountcy to the successor states but,instead, freed the States from their Paramountcy and told them that they were free to join either successor Dominion or remain independent but adviced them to join one or the other union.

Re: # 390 dost
You are not mean like hindus and fanatic like muslims,are you a sikh?.you dont have to answer this question.

#390 dost_mittar

[I am not aware of Pakistan signing any treaty with India on Kashmir. ]

Are you telling me that you didn't know that Jinnah (representing Pakiland) and the idiot Nehru (representing India) had signed an Agreement with the British Government?

If you are questioning that, let me know, and I'll provide copious references.

This is from wikipedia(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Jammu_and_Kashmir):

Ranbir Singh's grandson Hari Singh, who had ascended the throne of Kashmir in 1925, was the reigning monarch in 1947 at the conclusion of British rule of the subcontinent and the subsequent partition of the British Indian Empire into the newly independent Union of India and the Dominion of Pakistan. As parties to the partition process, both countries had agreed that the rulers of princely states would be given the right to opt for either Pakistan or India or—in special cases—to remain independent.

Maybe Pakis are never taught this thing in their history books, and are ONLY taught about the SUBSEQUENT UN treaty that the idiot Nehru signed under American pressure.

ajeya:

"Read up on how the Pakis sneaked in and attacked and took over POK just AFTER signing a treaty with India about the instrument of accession in Kashmir."

I am not aware of Pakistan signing any treaty with India on Kashmir.

tahmed (#376),

No need get testy or to make excuses; I only pointed out weaknesses, as I see them, in your views.

While you are marveling wonders of the information age and media access, ponder over how fools like you got conned into supporting a pointless, brutal war. No doubt - wrong information, in the hands of a fool, is a dangerous thing. And you are living proof of this tragedy

(You may want to re-read the above and ponder; of course, getting upset with me is always an option ...)

Moving on …

I’ve discussed religious issues with you in the past as they came up (last prophet, status of Muhammad and his wives according to Quran, etc.), have taken you to the task, and made you rethink. In any case, an issue is an issue - whether religious, or political etc., so I fail to see your point. I think your sarcasm is misplaced and a reflection of your own angst over some bygone issue.

So your “I am not interested� line comes across as a lame excuse; it underscores your failure at handling counter-viewpoints. But if you are going to put your foot in your mouth, don’t be surprised if I point it out to you every now and then - that’s all (grin).

dm #382

You are addressing someone who, among other things, seems to be under the impression that all internet traffic is routed through computers located in the United States. His 'reasoning', such as it is, that the US is the world leader in promoting free speech, etc., appears to be predicated on that incorrect assumption.

He does not know that he does not know. He will now triumphantly repeat this bogus argument, in one form or another, for the next half-a-dozen years. Attempts to enlighten him are unlikely to be successful.

Urstruly#381:

There are no innocent parties on Kashmir. The first blame must go to Jinnah saheb who had insisted that the people of Princely states will not have any say in determining their future, which would be the sole prerogative of the Prince. This was the basis of the Pakistan maintaining its claim over the Hindu majority state of Hyderabad right until 1960s.

As regards, the CPM, I have earlier criticised the Congress leadership for rejecting it but have had to change my views after reading the details of that document. The Plan had a poison pill in it which could be swallowed only with a huge leap of faith which was a scarce commodity during those days of mutual suspicion and mistrust. It gave the Muslim majority provinces the option to secede from the Confedration after ten years; to make matters worse, ML leaders were shouting that this was a transitionary step towards full independence. Under these circumstances, if you were a paid consultant, you too would have advised the Congress to give half Punjab and Bengal to Jinnah rather than the high likelihood of losing all Muslim majority provinces down the road.

Since you mention Canada, the situation is indeed quite similar with Parti Quebecois seeking a separate Quebec based on its two nation theory based on language. Thus when it held a referendum on sovereignty association with English Canada, the federalists saw it as a step towards independence and said NO to the proposal.

P.S. If you have crossed the border, welcome to my country.

#379 dost_mittar

[Ghori would not have succeeded against Prithvi Raj Chauhan if there was no Jai Chand to support him.]

Here are the facts:

Ghori INVADED Chauhan's kingdom.
Ghori was defeated by Prithvi Raj Chauhan and brought to him in chains.
Ghori was pardoned and let go.
Ghori then attacked him back in the middle of the night.

So Ghori was a coward (because he attacked in the night) and a backstabber (because Chauhan had pardoned and let him go). This is in keeping with Muslim traditions. Read up on Muhammad attacking his enemies when they were resting and unarmed, and also from behind.

Read up on how the Pakis sneaked in and attacked and took over POK just AFTER signing a treaty with India about the instrument of accession in Kashmir.

[Look, I am no fan of political islam but muslims and hindus coexisted peacefully, if not integrated, in what is now Pakistan for a long time. Socially and culturally, there is not much difference between how my parents and Urstruly's parents lived in Northwest Punjab. If you see some of the Hindi films of 1950s and 1960s, you will see the Hindu migrant from Peshawar dressed in the typical pathan turban and salwar.]

You may call it peacefully, but there was always an undercurrent of enmity coming from the Urstruly-types amongst Muslims. This is precisely why Hindus choose to migrate out of Muslim-majority countries over time. Because this undercurrent is always there. The numbers speak for themselves. The population of Hindus in Pakiland has dwindled to almost nothing, while the percetage, as well as absolute numbers of Muslims in India is increasing every day. Not only that, there is much whining and moaning and groaning about their "sorry plight".

[Like it or not, Pakistan is going to be India's neighbour and one always sleeps more peacefully with a friendly than a hostile neighbour.]

I would sleep much more peacefully with a hostile neighbor and army battalions along the border ready to impart a good a$$-kicking to anyone who dares come across. All this bhai-bhai talk is misleading. Look at Cyprus. First the Turkish ruler imported Turks into Cyprus (this same guy killed 200000 Greeks AFTER winning the battle, as a lesson). Then the island was divided. So the Muslims have only 50% of the land. But this is not enough. So they are using deceit. They are chanting Turkish-Greek bhai bhai and wanting to break down the separating wall. In a few years, it will be 70% Muslim, then 90% Muslim. A repeat of the story in Lebanon.

I trust Muslims as individuals, depending on who they are. But not Muslims as a group. Muslims as a group are dangerous for humanity.

tahmed#382:

Yes, I think of the Internet as the global and not a US media. The US may have invented the Internet but it can no more claim its ownership than you can claim ownership of Hind-se (numerals) because they were invented by your forefathers.

#381 Urstruly

[Unfortunately, this hostility is because of the cruel Indian occupation of Kashmir.]

Well Urstruly bhai,

Look at it from this perspective - under the Indian rule in Kashmir, the Muslims don't pay Dhimmi-tax, are not discriminated against in jobs in Kashmir (actually, they are preferred). No mosques have been destroyed, and the stones used to create temples instead. Instead, Kashmiri Pandits, the original inhabitants, have been forced to leave by the hundreds of thousands.

Now compare that with Muslim rule in India. Foreigners came into our 100% Hindu land, imposed the Dhimmi-tax, destroyed and looted temples, and built mosques in their place, had hugely preferential policies for Muslims in employment - the list is very long.

If it was up to me, any Muslim who utters a peep about Indian rule in kashmir would be beheaded. Slowly.

Re: # 382
MQM = Muthida Qaumi Movement , defender of ahle-zuban.

What is MQM brothers? Mohajir Quota Movement?

Re: # 379 DM

Unfortunately, this hostility is because of the cruel Indian occupation of Kashmir. But not only that an overwhelmingly significant Indian intelligentia wishes to see pakistan as a failed state - whether or not it falls back into the laps of India. There was a concerted effort by Congress in the early days of Partition and which lasted for decades, to create this mindset in general Indian populace. The main reason for that is that they (congress) wanted to divert attention from their own failure to keep India united. The truth is as galring as the sun in the sky that Muslim League had agreed to the Cabinet Mission Plan, thus keeping India united. But it was due to un-relenting position of Hindu leadersship that they wanted to assign Muslims the status of 2nd class subjugates. Quaid-e-Azam's demand for constitutional parity was not a new animal. Canada has been practicing that for decades already. Rest is history.

The people of Pakistan will never compromise on the status of Kashmir. They have already compromised once when they agreed to Indias proposal of a plebicite and got cheated by Ram ram chanting knife-under-the-armpit baniya. It does not matter what our disgraceful leaders say. At the end of the day they and their children have top live among us- now don't they?

dm #378 this is what you wrote in #347 "I think that the reporting of the US media becomes quite easy to explain if you are willing to accept that it is controlled by the pro-israeli lobby in the US."

I told you the above was true only if you assume that the internet is not part of the US media, and presented you with some realities concerning the internet to this end. What "glaring flaw" do you see in this?

Without either questioning or acknowledging what I wrote above, you simply claim: " I never suggested that the Internet is controlled by the israeli lobby"!! This is hardly the way to move a discussion forward.


As for Iraq, how do you know that the US media deliberately misled the US public? If you are privy to malintent in the minds of people you have probably never even met, I think it is best not to jump to conclusions regarding their intentions.

ajeya:

Ghori would not have succeeded against Prithvi Raj Chauhan if there was no Jai Chand to support him. Look, I am no fan of political islam but muslims and hindus coexisted peacefully, if not integrated, in what is now Pakistan for a long time. Socially and culturally, there is not much difference between how my parents and Urstruly's parents lived in Northwest Punjab. If you see some of the Hindi films of 1950s and 1960s, you will see the Hindu migrant from Peshawar dressed in the typical pathan turban and salwar.
Like it or not, Pakistan is going to be India's neighbour and one always sleeps more peacefully with a friendly than a hostile neighbour.

tahmed32#377:


The flaw in the logic is so glaring that it did not need any pointing out from me. I never suggested that the Internet is controlled by the israeli lobby. Nobody can control it even if they wanted, as has been learnt by the Chinese govt. and other control freaks. And it is also true that the US population does not consider Arabs to be angels, neither do I for that matter. But the point was very simple that the US media deliberately misled the public on Iraq. If the US anchormen and women and the newspaper editors were doing nothing more than reading the newspapers of other countries, they would have known that the US govt. was doing a fraud on its public, it obviously helped someone that they concealed the facts and who was that someone? certainly not the United States of America!

As regards the Indian media and the Kashmir issue, the Indian media is not acting on behalf of a foreign country's lobby. Indians know quite well that the majority of Kashmiris do not want to be part of India and they are certainly aware of the human rights abuses of the Indian security forces there, thanks to the reporting by the Indian media itself, but the Indian public is unfortunately immune to human rights abuses. As hamidm pointed out, we are quite happy to see an accused being put on a donkey and a black face and paraded through the streets. But the Indian media, like the rest of the population, are a chauvinistic lot and have no sympathy for the Kashmiri separatists; most Indians would be quite happy if separatists were pushed out of Kashmir and replaced by Indians from other parts of the country. Indeed, it would have been better for all concerned if Indians had done that in 1948 as Pakistanis did by driving out/converting all non-muslims from their part of Kashmir.

dm: hiding behind sarcasm (even if provided by sattar2) is not something I expected of you. Please either indicate any flaw in my logic, or make your definition of "media" explicit, or else acknowledge that what you said was based on the conventional wisdom of what constitutes "media".

Even if I switch back to this limited view of the "media", to say that the US media is controlled by the the pro-Israeli lobby indicates a lack of understanding of even the traditional forms of media in the US.

Have you ever considered, e.g., the fact that in the US the majority of the population does not buy outright the Arab argument that in the Israeli-Arab dispute the Arabs are the saints and the Israelis are the devils? Have you ever reflected on the fact that compared to any other country in the world you are familiar with (India, e.g.) the press similarly reflects the perspective of the general population?? Thus, e.g., how many newspapers in India do you see presenting the view that India should perhaps let the Kashmiris decide for themselves if they wish to be part of India??

sattar2: I had advised you some time back that I was not interested in wasting time with you. My ignoring your recent posts to me should have been a reminder of that. While greatly flattered by your interest in continued "discussions" despite these reminders, and despite the fact that you are commenting on politics not religion now, I must humbly remind you again of my lack of interest in wasting my precious chowk time with you. Have a nice day, live long and prosper. :-)

Another Habib Jalib poem I love which is quite relevent in today(s) context is a punjabi one..
I hope you guys enjoy it..

Bootan Di Sarkar

(Panjabi)
Dakuan da je saath na dinda pind da pehredar
Aj paireen zanjeer na hund jit na hundi har
Paggan apne gal wich pa lo turo pet de bhar
Chadh jaye te mushkil lehndi bootan di sarkar

Ghazal
by Habib Jalib

Hindustan bhi mera hai aur Pakistan bhi mera hai
Lekin in donon mulkon mein Amrika dera hai

Aid ki gandam kha kar ham ne kitney dhokey khai hain
Poochh na hamne Amrika ke kitne naaz uthai hain

Phir bhi ab tak wadi-e gul ko sangeenon ne ghera hai
Hindustan bhi mera hai aur Pakistan bhi mera hai

Khan Bahadur chhodna hoga ab to saath Angrezon ka
Ta bah gareban aa pahuncha hai phir se hath Angrezon ka

Macmilan tera na hua to Kenedy kab tera hai
Hindustan bhi mera hai aur Pakistan bhi mera hai

Yeh dharti hai asal mein, pyare, mazdooron dahqanon ki
Is dharti par chal na sakegi marzi chand gharanon ki

Zulm ki rat rahegi kab tak ab nazdik savera hai
Hindustan bhi mera hai aur Pakistan bhi mera hai



Pakistan Ka Matlab Kya?

Roti, kapda aur dawa
Ghar rehne ko chhota sa
Muft mujhe talim dila
Mein bhi Musalmaan hoon wallah
Pakistan ka matlab kya
La Ilaha Illalah…

Amrika se mang na bhik
Mat kar logon ki tazhik
Rok na janhoori tehrik
Chhod na azadi ki rah
Pakistan ka matlab hai kya
La Ilaha Illalah…

Khet waderon se le lo
Milen luteron se le lo
Mulk andheron se le lo
Rahe na koi Alijah
Pakistan ka matlab kya
La Ilaha Illalah…

Sarhad, Sindh, Baluchistan
Teenon hain Panjab ki jaan
Aur Bangal hai sab ki aan
Aai na un ke lab par aah
Pakistan ka matlab kya
La Ilaha Illalah…

Baat yehi hai bunyadi
Ghasib ki ho barbadi
Haq kehte hain haq agah
Pakistan ka matlab kya
La Ilaha Illalah…

Re: # 372 'aray kya baat kerdee peethay paan ke' , wasay, adaaab!

izuber bhai, what do you think of ahal-e-zuban(s) struggle? guide me please! sometimes, I am confused. I mean at times I give up because of MQM then I see this passer-e-zameens attitude towards us , institutional racism specially targeted towards us - it makes me come back. Although I had always voted for MQM not just because they represents us ahal-e-zuban but the party stand on 'merit'.

Re: # 369
Have a meetha paan & you will definitely feel better in the taste buds!

Re: # 370
IB Bhayia they are not a part of census

Re: # 368 wasay izbuer bhai, bhai can be aunties - check out Sheikh Amir Hassan or all the gay hay hay folks amoung us - there population is growing faster then rats!!!!

Izuber bhai, 203 was in bad taste!

Re: # 203
IM Bhai, what a contradiction! Bhai cant be aunties!!

take a guess again, amir is a bacha chota sa.

#366 dost_mittar

". And India should not help them out at that point either. India should continue to maintain the status quo. Let's see if allah from houri-land saves the day for the land of the pure."

[ajeya:
There is a famous Urdu verse:

Pilla kay giraana tau sab ko aata hai
Mazaa tau tub hai jab girtoN ko thaam lay saaqi

It means that the best time to help someone is when he badly needs it. Pakistanis'r us even though they feel ashamed in admitting it.]

Dost-Mitter,

There is another famous English phrase:

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me

Remember what happened to Prithviraj Chauhan who showed mercy after defeating Muhammad Ghori in battle? He was attacked at night by Ghori (which was against Kshatriya laws, but very much in line with tactics that Muhammad adopted many times). Muslims are the followers of Muhammad. The Hindu rules of warfare don't apply. Pakis will stab us in the back at the first opportunity.

I think we should maintain the status quo.

[Throughout history, foreigners have used our internal bickering to come and rule over us subcontinentals, let us learn from history and not repeat that mistake.]

There were no British in Ghori's time. Remeber what happened to Hindus for hundreds of years?

The British and the Americans are MUCH better. Satyagraha worked against the British. It doesn't work against Islam or Communism. Remember Tianaman square? That's what would have happened to Gandhi if it was the Muslim instead of the Britich.

ajeya#364:

". And India should not help them out at that point either. India should continue to maintain the status quo. Let's see if allah from houri-land saves the day for the land of the pure."

ajeya:
There is a famous Urdu verse:

Pilla kay giraana tau sab ko aata hai
Mazaa tau tub hai jab girtoN ko thaam lay saaqi

It means that the best time to help someone is when he badly needs it. Pakistanis'r us even though they feel ashamed in admitting it. Throughout history, foreigners have used our internal bickering to come and rule over us subcontinentals, let us learn from history and not repeat that mistake. We have problems, who doesn't? Even Canada and US have a looming teritorial dispute on soveignty over the arctic passage. The trick is to accept that the problems will be resolved, if not today then in distant future, but let us start behaving like normal neighbours in the meantime. Sounds like a pious sermon but is true nevertheless. Indians have always accepted this approach, if Pakistanis too are willing to do the same, let's not discourage them.

sattar2:

Thanks. It's abundantly clear now. Stupid me!

#359 dost_mittar

[And, yes, the army also knows that it can not successfully confront the Indian army at the present time...]

...or at any other time, being inferior in every imaginable way.

[But this does not mean that they have given up on the option of bleeding India by a thousand cuts.]

It would seem that in spite of the thousand "cuts" India is getting stronger every day, and Pakiland is the one bleeding from a thousand cuts instead. India will be getting a veto in the UN soon. And the USA is bombing Pakiland whenever it wants.

It's called Karma.

[the awaam of the two countries might start viewing Kashmir as an issue to be resolved among two friends rather than a feud between hostile neighbours]

The Pakistani awam is free to have any kind of wet dream it wants. The Indian awam are not interested in talking to the Paki awam about ANYTHING. As far as the Indian awam is concerned, the Paki awam can go to hell. After having supported terrorism and mass killing in India for decades, suddenly they are getting shafted from all sides, so it is time for friendship with India? I don't think so. When the USA is done with Pakiland-manufactured terrorism, they will discard Pakiland like a used condom (Obama was already talking about bombing Pakiland, no doubt because it is a popular concept amongst the US voters). And they will not be throwing any more money in the direction of Pakis after that. And India should not help them out at that point either. India should continue to maintain the status quo. Let's see if allah from houri-land saves the day for the land of the pure.

DM,

What tahmed is saying is that … chowk is a part of media; chowk is not controlled by any lobby; this proves that media at large has no outside influence.

… it’s your own fault if you fail to follow his reasoning.

+++

tahmed, tell us more about wonders of the information age. Note how questionable intelligence was used to drum up this war … and too many fools, including yourself, got taken in. And that’s the flip side of the “information revolution� that you fail to see.

make that "unless you explicitly" and not "if you explicitly" in #361 below.

And note that if you deny that the internet is part of the media, then you are taking an unrealistically narrow definition of what constitutes the media.

dm: the example i gave of the internet in fact demolishes your claim that the US media is controlled by the the pro-Israeli lobby.

the reason you think it is does not counter what you claim is because you implicitly reject the idea that the internet, and therefore chowk, is part of the media as well. If you explicitly reject that notion, then what you are saying is that chowk posts are controlled by the pro-Israeli media as well. Which brings you close to the brink that poor masadi has already gone over..

tahmed32:

Sirji, nothing that you said counters what I said in my post #347. On the other hand, I would ask you to ponder this: Which country is the same media would now like the US to go after (no, it's not Afghanistan)? Isn't it the same country from which Israel feels threatened?

ferozk#347:

I am aware that the new Kashmir policy has the full backing of the army and, indeed, was implemented by Musharraf himself. And, yes, the army also knows that it can not successfully confront the Indian army at the present time. But this does not mean that they have given up on the option of bleeding India by a thousand cuts. I would be surprised if the JeM or LeT have lost all their contacts in high places. I read a report yesterday that suggested that they have started new camps in Pakistan for the joint training of Khalistanis and Kashmiri separatists. And the US agencies have complained that the US aid supplied to counter insurgency has been used, instead, to purchase weapons that can only be used against India.

My only hope is that, if the present friendly civilian contacts between the two countries continue and greater trade relations develop, the awaam of the two countries might start viewing Kashmir as an issue to be resolved among two friends rather than a feud between hostile neighbours. If this happens, the army will lose its raison d'etre of holding the country as a hostage. In that case, there also will be no need for Pakistan to be subservient to the US - or to China or Saudi Arabia for that matter.

Regarding your hometown, it's not pretty right now. I came back two weeks ago after four months to find a six foot wall of snow on both sides of my street. And it ain't pretty like X-Mas time, this snow is ugly, mixed with salt, grit and muck accumulated over the winter. But don't worry, spring is around the corner (technically already here) and I can already see some tulips sprouting near the wall of the house.

#350 Posted by ferozk
“In 1998, COAS General Karamat said that the same and was forced to resign by Nawaz Sharif paving the way for Musharraf. Musharraf goes on a PR campaign with India and i the process reverses Pakistan's traditional policy on Kashmir, which had been the root cause of all its wars with India.�

Gen. Karamat was proposing a supreme body above the constitution, above the parliament and under the army control to rule over Pakistan. That bastard was legitimizing the army role in Pakistan. He went about it over the Parliament and the PM. He had already believed that he and the army were above the law and the constitution. It was a courageous act by a civilian PM to fire him. That was an act of grave insubordination and he was duly punished for that. What makes you think Karamat was not planning to takeover?

His proposal showed he had completely disregarded the constitution and the civilian setup. Not knowing the army would lead to a simple conclusion that his firing paved the way for Mush takeover. That is naïve to even think that the army was going to respect the constitution and had stopped, if the Karamat incident had not taken place.

A PM, no matter how he reached the power, had the ability to see the consequences of the Karamat proposal and again had the guts to dismiss him and again dismiss another COAS when it was clear that the army was getting ready for another coup.

Pakistan may rethink its Kashmir policy but there is nothing to suggest that the army is ready to reverse that. What people of Pakistan want and what the army wants are two different things. There is no evidence that the army has ever respected people of Pakistan.

Going to India and opening the borders along Kashmir are not enough to prove that the army is about ready to reverse that policy. I am sure If Asif and NS have their way, we certainly will see some material changes in the Pak policy towards India. It is too early to go to discuss that now.

Zee,
Haqiqi is nothing more then the splinter group of MQM which separated. Its history. I had personally supervised one operation at Shah Faisal Coloney against a mini-no-go area of Haqiqi where we found a load of ammunition dump (mostly local stuff). Most of the Haqiqi boys have moved to Sunni-Tahreek.

Feroz bhai,
Army is an institution, a team with a proper chain of command. HP Sian has rightly claimed that Army’s role in politics could never stop – they still call the stops. Army minus Mushraff does not effect Army’s thinking and approach.
Army is in firm control of following to this date:
a) Foreign Policy of Pakistan
b) Nuclear Command Authority and Issues relating to Dr.Qadeer Khan

Army has a huge stake in economics of Pakistan and Army can not afford to ignore an iota of her interests in civil affairs because that would be destroying there retirement and provident funds. Anyone who thinks post-28 Feb Pakistan is a changed Pakistan is living in a ‘limbo’.

#333 Posted by ferozk
“I never said that Pakistani army's orientation has changed, but that it is in the process of changing. It has been undergoing a change ever since Pakistan realized that it is no longer in a position to fight a war with India.�

I never implied that either. I mentioned that they need tools to make the shift, whenever that happens. Here is from my post.
“It takes years to change the orientations from the external threat to internal threats. The Pak army has no tools to implement this neither would it change the existing orientation for the simple reason that any change would require it to drop its current arsenal and reduce the army size for swift actions that are required for dealing with the internal threats. There is nothing that suggests that the Pak army has the intellectual capital and the tools to make these changes. Armies don’t change their orientations in a matter of days. It is a process that requires meticulous planning, resources and the political will.�

“It has been undergoing a change ever since Pakistan realized that it is no longer in a position to fight a war with India. Your view of the Pakistani army is a very traditional one, but the mindset of the Pakistani army is�

That is the fundamental flaw in your thinking. Pakistan army will not fight India but what you fail to see clearly is that the army has not changed anything to back that up. The army still wants a large budget, they still want more arms, and they still compare their arsenal with that of India. The missiles, the kind of planes and tanks they ask for show the current and the future orientation. The deeds on the ground are different than the spoken words. Not fighting a war with India does not by any stretch of imagination imply that they will not use the perceived threat from India for the army’s benefit. Is there any evidence that the army has closed any base near the Indian border, where I can find any material that shows that Pakistan has reduced the army presence on the Kashmir borders? I cannot find the material because there is none.

“Please read the speeches of its leadership since the early 1990s and read some of the in-house journals. They all point to a re-think within the army and as to the American advisors; they will come regardless of what you and I think. If this war in FATA continues, then we will a new generation of officers, moulded in COIN operations assuming the leadership of the army in the next 10-20 years.�

Double speak is part of the elaborated deception that army has designed to hide its true position. I would have believed them, if I can match that with actions on the ground. As I mentioned above, where is the evidence that proves what they say? Why Pakistan needs long range missiles, if it is in the process of changing orientation?
At this point I am losing faith in you to even understand how the military doctrines and how the long term planning work.
For the operations like FATA, all they need is a special force such as the one the US has. They don’t have to turn the whole army upside down to fight in FATA where they are not expected to fight a regular army.

“the Pakistani army is not same army it was before Kiyani took over and it is certainly a different army after February 28 elections.�

I am practically dumbfounded to read something like this from a politically conscious person and a historian too. I had quoted you a few examples to show how the army’s interference in the State affairs still continues and you are telling me that overnight the army changed because PMLq lost elections? An institution that had controlled the state for the last 8 years, behind the scenes for 12 years prior to that, and another ten years of direct rule before that, has just had a huge change of heart just because Kiyani says so? You must believe in miracles to believe in something like that.

The post is pretty long already but let me show you again what the civilians still can’t do without the army approval. Btw, when was the last time the army respected any constitutional provisions? The removal of 58(2)b, is to restrict the civilian President. No law in Pakistan can stop the army not even the threat of hanging or treason.
Think about these:
Release of Baloch leaders and workers require army’s approval.
Removing the army from Baluchistan or and stopping the army action going on there- I doubt the civilians would even go there for another year or so.
The Judges issues…Even though it is not such a big issue that the army would hold this up for long.
The US influence in the army and army advocating and supporting the US pov in Pakistani politics.
They can’t even touch Dr. Qadeer w/o the Army okay.
The Jihadi set up under the army guidance and in active control. And the so-called wot that the army is fighting on US behalf.
Pakistan’s foreign policy, if there is any, is under the army control.

I can go on and on but I will save that for another post.

BTW any comments on lifting of the ban on 'Haqiqi'?

tahmed, you forgot one … which in turn may cause you some consternation:

Which country attacked Iraq, based on conveniently flawed intelligence? The US.

You forgot this one, perhaps since you yourself badly fell for it ...

+++

DM (#347), valid points ...

dm sahib: i know this will cause great consternation to many august personages like yourself on chowk, but..far from being a vast right-wing conspiracy to delude the public, the US is in fact is the world leader in promoting free speech.

If this sounds outrageous - let me bring to your attention the chowk itself..

q: what makes chowk possible? a: the internet
q: who invented the internet? a: the US department of defense
q: who remains in charge of the backbone of the internet? a: the US government
q: where does ALL internet traffic (even communication between, e.g., Xian, China and Hong Kong, China)? a: computers located in the US.
q: which country stands in the way of dictators seeking to control free speech on the internet? a: the US.

hope this helps.

#326 Posted by IB

Well then Balochistan has a significant portion of Pashtoons too – probably more then the Baloch themselves; why not ask them?

Of-course the Baluchi Pushtoons are Baluchis too (approx 50/50). They make a clear distinction with the NWFP Pushtoons. And they are very well represented in assemblies - so any decision will be not without their consent.

... following are the demands of MQM.

a) separate Karachi, Hyderabad from Sindh and make it a different province

And what about Khairpur? Are you willing to give it up or envisage an exchange of populations? Of-course every single Mohajir in Rural Sind will then migrate to the two cities you mentioned because of the added opportunities.

b) full provincial autonomy

This is in the constitution and should be implemented. But I suppose this demand is conditional to (a) above in case of MQM. Otherwise not.

c) end of quota system in government jobs, state university seats

This is affirmative action and quite justified.

In any case, do let me know whether or not the Urban quota is already far more than the actual percentage of Mohajir population in Sind? The quota is 60 percent rural and 40 percent urban - when Urdu speakers make up just 13%?

None of the above demands is genuine. This is what 'Jinnahpur' means my friend.

re:dost_mittar # 347

Dostji, please consider this hypothesis. After the nuclear blasts of 1998, a conventional style war between India and Pakistan became highly unlikely. After 1998, Pakistani army basically accepted this proposition that a war with India was not practical.

If the Pakistani army is not going to fight India, then what role will it have?

In 1998, COAS General Karamat said that the same and was forced to resign by Nawaz Sharif paving the way for Musharraf. Musharraf goes on a PR campaign with India and i the process reverses Pakistan's traditional policy on Kashmir, which had been the root cause of all its wars with India.

Would such a policy alteration would have been possible without the consent and the consensus of the Pakistani army's corps commanders, who make up the executive decision making body of the Pakistani army and ipso fact of the Pakistani armed itself?

There has been a re-think in the army over Kashmir and even after Asif Zardari's interview, Kiyani simply stated the obvivious without elaborating Pakistani army's views on Kashmir. The talking-discussionj space allowed on the Kashmir issue is indicative of this; otherwise the army would have not allowed the deviance from the offical script.

Dostji, it is always more educational in Pakistani politics to pay attention to the silence than the loud noises. The silence is more deafening and more instructional about the intentions of the people than their actions mimicking their intentions.

Incidently, how is my old adopted home town? I miss the canal in the winter months. :)

Ciao

#348 Posted by zeemax:

"I see that the new alliances being formed and the isolation of the hamidm2s haven't escaped your attention"

How could it? The same thing has been going on from Vedic/Biblical times. Only names change ... the basic remains the same .... but does it have to? :)

#346 Posted by GT,

I see that the new alliances being formed and the isolation of the hamidm2s haven't escaped your attention :)

On the US media.

Let me be the Massadi here. I think that the reporting of the US media becomes quite easy to explain if you are willing to accept that it is controlled by the pro-israeli lobby in the US. Everyone thinks that the US actions in Iraq have been a disaster and they are a disaster FOR the US and the rest of the world but NOT for Israel. It was in the Israeli interests to get rid of not only Saddam but also break Iraq which was the only Arab country capable of causing it trouble besides Egypt which had already been pacified. So, it suited the media owned/controlled by this lobby not to question WMD or Saddam's connection with Al Qaeda. It also suited its purpose to dismantle the Iraqi state after Saddam was defeated and to prevent a smooth transition to another regime. Once this task was accomplished, it is now in the interest of this same lobby for the US to get out of Iraq and let them have a full fledged civil war. This is why the Thomas Friedmans of the media who were cheerleading the march to Baghdad are now seeking an early withdrawal. Unfortunately for them, their interests now diverge from their earlier ally, the Oil lobby whose interests are not to leave Iraq until a friendly regime is in place.

On groups of roving bandits and Chowk:

The state is a complex institution. Let us try to understand it simply. Here I borrow from Mancur Olson.

Consider agricultural communities which store their harvest for sowing in the future as well as to insure its members from future weather shocks. A roving group of bandits plunder these communities stealing what they can and burning the rest. Burning is done to intimidate. What happens? Well, some of these communities dissapear (die away) as there is not enough seeds to plant in the future. The bandits realize soon enough that if they continue in this way there would be nothing to steal. So they come to an arrangement with the communities.

Nothing will be burned from now on as long as the communities pay a certain "tax". The bandits can also become "benevolent", providing crop insurance (i.e. subsidies to languishing communities) across communities. They also provide "protecion" against other groups of roving bandits. Things start looking dandy, and the bandits' empire spreads. With the "empire" growing, monitoring becomes difficult. Communities start "cheating" on their taxes. Moving from one community of "thieves" to another to burn their villages becomes "costly" for the bandits. They hit on an idea.

The bandit army splits into smaller groups. Each group now takes charge of a community. Recruitment, if needed, is made from the local community. Let us call the leading bandits of these groups IB, zeemax, urstruly and tahmed. The original bandit leader hamidm-1 becomes the Chief. Things go on nicely for quite some time.

One day, urstruly is approached by a guy from "his community" called GT, who suggests that he urstruly can control more "territory" than he does. But for that he needs to co-operate with zeemax. Pepped up, urstruly gets together with Zeemax, attacks hamidm-1 and kills him and banishes the prince hamidm-2 to a place called chowk. GT proclaims urstruly the "True Chief". With one chief less, communities now have to pay lower taxes and everything becomes "better" for the unwashed. GT notices this and is scared.

If things become better with the removal of a "chief", wouldn't other "chiefs" try to get rid of urstruly? Yes, he concludes. But then he figures out the following (i) urstruly was able to defeat hamidm-1 only by colluding with Zeemax; (ii) their armies were manned not by the original bandits but by people from the local communities. So GT gets into his "eureka" mode and advises urstruly as follows: "O, son of God Pluto, beware of tahmed, IB and Zeemax. For they will readily get together and kill you. To avoid this, O Lord of Lords, teach each of their communities to speak a different language so that they bable and are unable to get together and co-ordinate an attack against you. Then you shall verily rule". Urstruly follows GT's advise, he and his descendents rule fo ever.

The descendents of hamidm2 organize riff-raffs from all communities to vent in chowk even today. This helps, for after letting off steam riff-raffs calm down. Furthermore, no sane member in each community pays any attention. The discourse in chowk is lead by a person called Masadi. They have given a derogatory name to GT - "Chanakya". As per the advise of Chanakya, the descendents of urstruly still pay the operating cost of Chowk. And as per GT's edicts Chowk is also called the "Free Press". Now, don't ask me what it means.

hamidm #343 while no individual news source can be considered to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth - the rich mix of news sources now available gives you a better picture of current events than you would get by coming up with preconceived notions.

I have taken pains to explain to you this simple point in #343/#343.

If you were not a lota, instead of dreaming about failure of the democratic government, you would be wishing it god speed in fulfilling the mandate handed to it in the last elections. But being a lota, you wouldnt understand ... :-)

Good discussion between HP and ferozk. Here are some common sense observations by an outsider.

Although Pakistani politicians came together to oust Musharraf, in their guts, they hate each other more than they hate army. All of them are willing to make deals with the army to have an upper hand over their opponents. If Nawaz Sharif seems to be principled, it is only because he has a personal score to settle with Musharraf; tomorrow, if Musharraf is gone, he will have no problem either in dealing with the army.

As for the changed orientation of the Pakistani army from external threat to internal security, I would like to think it is so but have a difficult time believing this to be true. Until the army generals have a blood transfusion, Kashmir will continue to be their permanent preoccupation and at least some of the generals must be thinking that the present internal security probelems are only an aberration from their more permanent goal.

At a more basic level, I think that the problem in Pakistan is its civil society which, in its thinking, is not much different from the "unwashed" awaam. It stands for law and order but when push comes to shove, it prefers order over law. Already at chowk, we see Pakistanis criticisng politicians for being unprincipled (where in the world are politicians principled?). At chowk, except for Urstruly and JBSameer (May Lord Buddha bless him wherever he is), I do not remember any Pakistani chowki who was not rooting for Musharraf back in 2000.

I personally sympathise with that view; as I have frequently said at this forum, the quality of governance is more important than its form and democracy is just another form of governance. Hinndians happen to be more patient and are willing to put up with a lot more chaos and anarchy than Muslims who are always inspired by the example of the four pious caliphs. Would any Pakistani have put up with the "unwashed" Mayawatis, Mulayams or Lalus ruling over them?

Re: # 341

tahmed,

wolf blitzer and tim russert are right-wing ? .... okay, how about chris matthews and obermann - do you think they are objective ?

.... mian ji, i think you are terribly gullible and in for a rude awakening one of these days ....

.... if i were musharraf i would have resigned a year ago and taken over the leadership of the pml-q instead of messing around with the droopy eyed cj ... but the man, like all of us is a paki .......if it makes you feel any better, there is not a lot of qualitative difference between the washed and unwashed ...... in any case, he can stil do it and win big in the next election after the present government falls apart - i just don't see how they can hold together ......... hp gives them six months, i will give them a year ......

one more thing on #341: and dont forget the internet itself where even terrorists get a chance to make their views known - and all they can talk about is "kill, kill" or play the victim card.

So - if the "mainstream ideas" of the rule of law are prevalent around the world today - it is not because of lack of opportunity for the lawless (whether al qaeda or musharraf) to make their case or present previously unknown facts.

#338 hamidm: The concept of "diversity" in the news media that I refer to in #337 is clearly a challenging one for you to comprehend.

You selective quoting of right wing media does not change the fact that you can get views from across the spectrum from sources within the US (including Mills and Howard Zinn who have Masadi's approval), plus hard news, plus news and views from respected news sources outside the US in europe, middle east, and the excellent services provided by pakistan's own dynamic media industry.

btw, i see you think mush will join the q-league. does this mean Commander Hosni Mubarak will become his own lota?

Dost,

I did not say that you did. Someone else (HP, I think) implied it from your post.

GT#265:

I did not imply that "Bhaiyya" culture dominates Delhi, even though younger Punjabis now call their elder brother bhaiyya instead of Bhappaji.

Re: # 337

tahmed,

... do you want to buy some real estate in michigan ? ....... do you really think all these anchors and other talking heads on mainstream media like nbc, msnbc,cbs,cnn and fox are 'independent' ?...... all these idiots - lou dobbs, wolf blitzer, tim russert, bill o'reilly - are out their mouthing off their opinios and i wouldn't be surprised if they are on somones's payroll in some form or fshion ......... how many of these guys end up as staffers, press secretaries, speech writers and cocktail party goers at the white house ? .... you really are a gullible fool !

......... as for pakistani 'journalists', i think they are pakis first and foremost - that makes them suspect from the git go ...... anyone born and raised in that culture of corruption and nepotism can be bought if the price is right ....

HP #318 On the independence of the media - Unless you consider books to not be part of the information media, then by recommending that book to me you are indicating that the media in fact does provide independent views.
:-) The media after all is not a monolithic beast - and the spread of the internet has made it ever more diverse. Thanks for recommending the book though - I am finishing the 700 page "People's History of the United States" (which even has Masadi's approval!!), and have a few books on other subjects next in line. But will try to check out this book you recommend at some point.

On Pakistani journalists I think you are being too skeptical. Do you consider journalists who put their lives at risk to go to remote tribal areas, with many having been killed in the process, to be "lifafa journalists"? I think they are national heroes in the freedom struggle who will be remembered long after you and I are dust.

Re: # 333

ferozk,

... i agree that as things stand now that army would prefer to stay away from politics while maintaining their monopoly over breakfast cereal, cement and fertilizer ..... at the same time, kiyani would like to keep musharraf in place to protect the army's 'honor' ..... if things get real bad they will work out some face saving formula and i wouldn't be surprised if musharraf takes over the q-league from the thieves of gujrat .... the unwashed masses are an unpredictable lot and he could be a formidable opponent in the next elections .........

..... i think the only way the army will intervene directly is if the skirmish between ib and zeemax flares into a full fledged civil war - which, given the thuggish nature of our politicians, is always a real possibility ......

#319 rf: Please stay within the boundries of reason. By your argument, the government should not take coercive action when someone breaks the law (whether it is coordinated atrocities of the mqm-kind or destruction of property by mobs). And by your argument, the military should never be called in to maintain internal law and order (every democratic country in the world considers the military to be the force of last resort if police are unable to contain internal disturbances).

You are merely wasting your time and my time with such absurd arguments. If you really believe them yourself, then you are entitled to do that and you have my sympathies. Have a good day, sahib.

Re: # 189
You are right Zeemax Charas in as much as I have known was never considered Haram by "them" which included many ethnicities in Pakistan, but, as I learn it is beyond charas in the current era.
There is nothing bad with the transport business and any business is not bad it is the monopolizing mafia system which introduces the bad side in any business; as a host nation Pakistan has done more than their part for the distressed Afghans due to the Soviet war but Pakistan has a bigger responsibility for it's own and should not be held responsible for carrying the refugees any longer.
You are right about the sad ordeal of several families who are "sufaid posh" type and chose to earn their living by having their innocent kids collect recyclables instead of opting for other avenues for acquiring wealth at a higher speed definitely my heart goes out for those little ones and I wish I could do something to support them.

re: HP

I will post a reply to you soon, but in the meantime; will say this. I never said that Pakistani army's orientation has changed, but that it is in the process of changing. It has been undergoing a change ever since Pakistan realized that it is no longer in a position to fight a war with India. Your view of the Pakistani army is a very traditional one, but the mindset of the Pakistani army is not that of the urban corps commanders any more, but of the rural middle class. Pakistani army, presently, is not interested in politics and it does not want to intervene in it because the result of political involvment since 1999 has been the worst institutional damage to it since the defeat in 1971.

Please read the speeches of its leadership since the early 1990s and read some of the in-house journals. They all point to a re-think within the army and as to the American advisors; they will come regardless of what you and I think. If this war in FATA continues, then we will a new generation of officers, moulded in COIN operations assuming the leadership of the army in the next 10-20 years. In the new thinking/doctrine, the strike crops will lessen in importance to the SSG units, which are being upgraded and increased to fight a COIN war in FATA.

The army does not have to stay in politics to keep its business interests intact. The Pakistani army will adopt, over a period of time, the role of the Turkish army and it will pull the strings from behind the curtain. There has been too much exposure of the military's business interests and the documentation of it in Ayesha Siddiqui's book for example, that has opened a new debate on the issue. With the freedom of the media and the recent scaling back of PEMRA, the new parliament will debate this issue. One of the ways to bring the military to accountibility will to review the defense budget in public and from there, we will see what happens next.

Wishes may indeed be horses, but you have to credit that Pakistan is changing and the vast majority of the Pakistani people, in the last decade, have matured considerably politically speaking and with the legal movement of 2007 still fresh in the minds of many, have become aware of their rights. These rights will be demanded soon, but we will have to be patient. :)

The only issue is when to confront the army. The political institutions and the political parties and their cadres are still not that strong yet. This is speculative, but it might be a reason why there is a growing seperation of opinion between PPP and PML-N. Nawaz Sharif wants a confrontation with Musharraf - read the military - but Asif Zardari wants to avoid this confontation till and untill, PPP is strong enough to challenge the military and win.

In the last eight years, and even before that, the military tried to dominate the civilian politics only to see a massive reaction against its trespass of civilian authority. If the military persists as you envision, there is a very good chance that it will risk losing more than its business interests, epecially since Punjab is not in the pro-military camp any more. For the first time, to the best of my recollection, the four provinces of Pakistan are united in their unmasked opposition to military rule.

The military knows this and here lies the rub. Both sides are at a position of stalemate, where none can deliver a knockout punch, so there is a good chance that there will some sort of accomodation between the two. Here is a possible scenrio; article 52-B in exchange for regularization of military's commerical interests in the civilian economy (tax liabilities imposed) and the total withdrawl of the military from politics and in return, it is allowed to keep its business interests as a financial incentive.

Will the military take the sop and leave? It will once it realizes that to seek a situation of a status quo ante in 2008, will entail a more severe loss of its overall interests.

COAS Kiyani is replacing key officers in important positions with his own selections and he will pick like-minded men; men who agree with his "vision". Therefore, if his intitial decisions are any indication, the army will pull back from politics and the new "inner sanctum" of the army will endorse Kiyani's new mantra for Pakistani army. Just like you said an army's orientation cannot be changed overnight; this will also take time but it will happen as Kiyani consolidates his tenure as COAS.

HP, the Pakistani army is not same army it was before Kiyani took over and it is certainly a different army after February 28 elections. Who do you think disallowed the ISI to intervene in the elections? What was Kiyani's previous posting before becoming COAS? It is safe to assume that while he was there at ISI, he fielded his staff of important positions, with officers who thought like him.

Ciao

Re: # 331
What is representation? it's the majority - majority in parliment and from that particular area MQM is in atleast 92% majority.

Yes, ANP won two local seats - thats right.

IB sahib,

(MQM is the sole representative of Urban Sind )

So you are saying that Altaf bhai is the Sole Spokesman for the Urban Sindhi? (to paraphrase Ms. Ayesha Jalal)

Btw do Urban Sindhis who are Pushtoons also vote for MQM? I understand ANP won a few seats in Pushtoon dominated parts of Karachi.

Regards

Re: # 327
The ‘Quota Mongers’ in Pakistan and this is I am quoting it from Nusrat Javed (an anchor of Bolta Pakistan on AJJ TV) that ‘ if Britain could introduce a system called ‘positive discrimination’ why can’t we?’ – How disturbing is that to a deserving person.

One of the biggest reasons why MQM is MQM is because of ‘Quota System’.

Re: # 327 maju bhai,
Think rationally please, MQM is a representative of significant portions of Karachi and Urban Sind and there(s) no other political group which rivals her. So it’s understood that MQM is the sole representative of Urban Sind until and unless JI wins even 30-40% of the seats.
Cheers

As they say kay ‘misery is almost always the result of thinking’. And somehow we are a bunch of ‘skeptic’ and ‘criticizing’ people back in the land of pure. It’s a genetic disorder which can not be sorted out.
We are Urdus have it - I must confess we are (for reasons – although there can not be any rationale for violence) are ‘urban militants’ or ‘secular talebans’ who are at times selfish to an extent and ignore the basic concept of humanity and the religion we follow – that is ‘sharing’. And I am sure the rest of the ‘nations’ in Pakistan are the same.
All the prejudice apart, I had been posted to parts of rural Sindh where a family have not seen ‘meat’ forget about eating it; people who are living in the age of Mughals. All the faults of not just feudal (it’s easier to blame them for all the sins) but ours as a nation. Collective Responsibility lies on each and everyone one of us for those who dies of hunger, commit suicide and for those who are rottening because they don’t have ‘Quaid-e-Azam’.

Let me narrate a very personal story when I was 24. At the Pizza Hut Gulshan, Karachi. I organized a birthday brunch for friends – for about good 40 folks I spend about Rs. 10000 on pizzas and whatnot – when we all finished and I went out; I saw a baby girl dying from hunger. That day my life changed. I made a pledge to lead a very ‘ordinary life’ and Alhumdullah I am leading one – with skeletons attached.

IB sahib,

(separate Karachi, Hyderabad from Sindh and make it a different province)

Well in that case wouldnt the Sindhi, Punjoo and Pushtoon majority wards of Karachi and Hyderabad be entitled to separate from Karachi, no?

(full provincial autonomy)

Absolutely. This is in line with Lahore Resolution, 1940, the principle on which Pakistan was created.

(end of quota system in government jobs, state university seats )

Right again. Sindhis are not a discriminated community that they shud need protection.

Regards

Well then Balochistan has a significant portion of Pashtoons too – probably more then the Baloch themselves; why not ask them?

HP Sain, it’s the Sindis who divided Sindh Dharti into two – Urban and Rural; now you have to bear with the sin you committed. HP Sian, I really have great respect for you but as rightly pointed by a brother here that somehow (with due respect) you suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Your extreme positions does not work in 2008 – please get out of 1990’s.

MQM represents Urban and PPP rural – there(s) no doubt about it and as the representative party of Urban Sindh – MQM has all the rights to demand for a work permit (although it would not be the right choice ethically).

Zeemax Bhai following are the demands of MQM.

a) separate Karachi, Hyderabad from Sindh and make it a different province
b) full provincial autonomy
c) end of quota system in government jobs, state university seats

#324 Posted by rf786,

I have many times asked the following of MQM supporters and never got a satisfactory answer:

What are their demands?

Re: # 323

{Mainland Chinese need work permits to come and work in special economic zones.}

Good example Zee, but then again China is state controlled by one party, communist party. Here we have people argueing for democracy and yet cannot accomodate each other for various reasons. Having said that, I have a soft corner for Baloch people, they have suffered for too long and deserve some kind of special situation. But that should not mean setting wrong precedents for others to emulate.

#320 Posted by IB,

Yaar the whole problem is that Karachi/Hyderabad are parts of Sindh. If HP agrees to make it a separate province, then you can do whatever you want under the provincial autonomy. Till then it's a big dispute. Same thing with Gwadar. It is part of Baluchistan and their Provincial cabinet can decide whether to give provincial voting rights or not.

However there are other examples. Mainland Chinese need work permits to come and work in special economic zones.

#320 Posted by IB
“How could one be allowed to apply for a work permit in ones own country? If that is allowed in Gawader then MQM has all the rights to enforce a similar system for the Phatans migrants or aliens to apply for a work permit."

The things you write w/o thinking really piss me off and then you ask me why I come after you. What right MQM has to levy any system in Karachi or any part of Sindh? They are not the majority party in Sindh nor do they own Karachi. Last I checked, they are not in the government either.

The situation in Baluchistan is different. They have suffered so much for so long, that it is the state’s responsibility to aggressively find solutions to the their problem. And if work permit is one way to help them, it is in the interest of the State to accept it.

Recent Rumors & Gossips among civil servants:

a) Dr.Siddique (yaaro ka yaar) owner of Ziauddin Hospital is being made Governor Sind.
b) Masud Sharif (ex-IB chief at the time of operation ‘cleanup’) will be accomadated as a special advisor to the PM
c) President had a long telephone call with Altaf Bhai and Zardari ( some say it was a conference call – from China)

Gawader sure is a special case.
As someone who owns a property there at the Zero Point (parents has the far slightness of buying couple of acre of land for Rs.20,000 in 1992 now worth a staggering Rs.10-15 million / acre – beach facing land) and is a regular visitor – I see Gawader developing in at least 30-40 years.

The political scale of Gawader is complex where there(s) a huge international interest specially (Chinese Investment plus huge Chinese presence in the newly formed port of Omara near Gawader) with regard to controlling the crucial Arabian Sea Routes and then there’s a vested interest of lot of tribal Sardars of Balochistan that Gawader should not develop.

The demands of Sardars that non-Baloch should not be allowed to vote is nothing more then a ‘topi-drama’ – what about folks whose child’s birth place be Gawader – he would have a Gawader domicile and would be eligible to vote. Then comes a point from my ‘all mohajir alter’ that why then you listen to a Baloch and Not us? Is that because they are pasre-e-zameen?

How could one be allowed to apply for a work permit in ones own country? If that is allowed in Gawader then MQM has all the rights to enforce a similar system for the Phatans migrants or aliens to apply for a work permit. You see the whole system of this land would collapse, foundations will break and hell will break loose.

Re: # 292

tahmed32

Yaar, I have provided your direct quote which clearly invites military action, now you can try to justify it by linking it with {"complete breakdown of law and order"}problem here is the basic principle of justice and separation of duties. You cannot assume the role of judge, jury and executioner and at the same time apply double standards. What happened in Multan yesterday, does that call for military action? Arson, destroying public, private property, open use of firearms, do these acts call for military action? How about the events of December 2007 post BB murder, again people were burnt alive and it was a case of total anarchy. I can go on.

Issue here is that who gave you the right or for that matter anyone else to decide who lives or not? When you preach independence and restoration of judiciary, constitutional supremacy then you should be the last person propagating the use of military force, sadly that is not the case and it makes it ever so more dangerous siice ideas such as these are pushed by the majority group (Punjab).

#310 Posted by tahmed32
“How could you possibly miss the tremendous coverage given by the media (with brave reporters risking their lives in the process) to cover the Vietnam and Iraq wars both with respect to news and of analysis?�

Obviously you did not follow what I said. The US media never challenged the Admin over its false claims of WMD in Iraq or supposedly the Mushroom Clouds over the US cities, if Sadam stayed in power in Iraq. I just can’t believe that the American Journalists embedded with the US army could have possibly reported any thing that did not favor the US aggression in Iraq. I don’t know how you can gloss over the facts and say that the US media was really doing a tremendous job.

To this day all reports from Iraq are cleared in the Green Zone. The US media failed to question the excuse for attacking Vietnam and it failed to report the atrocities in Vietnam until the differences within the US admin brought out some leaks about Mai Lai.

We will someday find out whether the US media was complicit in covering up Abu Gharib, until it was leaked, again due to rivalry between the State and the Defense department.

Not only the US media but pretty much all western media was part of the camouflage. Show me one mainstream media outlet in the US or in Europe that questioned the sorry ass excuse for the war.

I would like you to read this book if you can spend a few bucks to learn some truth about the media transparency in the US.
"So Wrong for So Long: How the Press, the Pundits--and the President--Failed on Iraq" by Greg Mitchell. http://www.amazon.com/So-Wrong-Long-Pundits-President-Failed/dp/1402756577/ref=p d_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1205770618&sr=1-1

This book’s tone is mild compared to what was deliberately hidden from people. I know for some it takes a long time for the reality to sink in. You really need to look around at things with a pinch of salt and you fill find out what the reality is.

As far as Pakistani journalists are concerned, for most of them it was all about the lifafa until they figured out more ways to make money. I hope you will get to know the truth about them some day.

#287 Posted by GT re #274

The new CM of Balochistan (Dawn, April 10)

“...Gwadar is a .... mega problem for the Baloch because settlement of outsiders will deprive the natives of their right to sit in this house. The settlement of outsiders will be conditional and they will have no right to vote or contest elections,�

GT, what he means is that Gwadar should be some kind of a special zone within Baluchistan. He has a valid point. The entire population of Baluchistan is 8 million, while Gwadar's is just a few hundred thousand. With the rest of Pakistan buying property in Gwadar and large scale industrialization planned there, indigenous Baluchis of Gwadar mandate will be severely diluted. He's not stopping anyone from coming there, but with some sort of a work-permit mechanism in a special zone.

Hindu worker lynched for ‘blasphemy’

Posted by Taimur Sikander

Jagdeesh Kumar, 22, was tortured to death by his co-workers in a leather garment factory in Karachi on Tuesday. According to Dawn, a discussion about religion among the co-workers became heated and the victim allegedly made some blasphemous remarks about Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him). This reportedly enraged the workers, who lynched Kumar until he succumbed to his injuries. When police arrived at the scene, they prevented the angry mob from burning the body. Family members and close friends, however, refuse to believe the official version of the story, and have cited personal feuds as the cause of death.

A senior police officer said they would register a case only after an autopsy report and further investigations. And so far none of the co-workers present on the scene have been taken into custody. “Jagdeesh was a simple man who knew little about religion. He had come to Karachi from Mirpurkhas to earn a living and not to indulge in debates over religion. And it is easy to kill a member of the minority community and then accuse him of uttering blasphemous remarks. And that is why there is a need for a proper and thorough investigation,� Raju, the brother-in-law of the victim, said.

Human rights groups have for long argued that the violence and discrimination against minority groups often go unpunished and seldom make it to the news. Police inaction in this case is a perfect example of that fact. Whether the factory workers killed Jagdeesh for personal reasons and brought in the raging issue of ‘blasphemy’ into the picture as a cover up remains a mystery. But whatever the reason, it will be interesting to see how the police handles the issue and how long they actually pursue the case. It is essential for the sake of Jagdeesh’s family and the harmony of Pakistan, however, that the killers are brought to justice and convicted.

Re: # 312
I just got out of rehab whats your excuse for staying on chowk 24/7?

#311 GT: but sir, i am on chowk 24/7. :-(

#308 Posted by tahmed32:

tahmed sahib:

Forget someone bigger. You have slapped me hard right here ... calling me a "distinguished chowk poster". From now on, I shall use the word "unwashed" only when you are not around. Deal?

HP #307 I dont see how you can even think that the media in democratic societies does not support the government. How could you possibly miss the tremendous coverage given by the media (with brave reporters risking their lives in the process) to cover the Vietnam and Iraq wars both with respect to news and of analysis? And now Pakistani media has demonstrated similar commitment to their profession as well. Why do you think Musharraf needed to introduce pemra if he thought the media was going to give a pass to his government. You are not kidding me, I hope!! I cant believe you even wrote this.

"to add to that, a truck with shipping container with a load of Quran-e-Pak was also burned down in the same vicinity as these factory workers.
The driver of the truck pleaded before the truck was set on fire and told the hoodlums that all it contains is several thousand copies of Quran-e-Pak yet it was set on fire."

Finally Pakistan has some people who just wont take the book on the face value...

That is the beauty of the political protesters, you bring the book...they will throw it out!

GT #304 actually i dont agree that "safety" or "security" is a relative or wishy-washy concept. There is a precise legal term ("habeas corpus") that is well understood around the world today and which is one very specific issue where the Chief Justice drew the line.

Gonzalez or Yoo or their genius boss Bush in the US, or the semi-literate "Commando" in Pakistan, may not understand this term. But better judgement is expected from a distinguished chowk poster like you, sir!! :-)

as for political correctness - again, there is a clear line between political incorrectness and mere rudeness. And the litmus test for this is: Would you be able to use a phrase to the face of someone bigger than you without risking a slap in the face in return? Hope this clarifies the distinction. :-)

#301 Posted by GT
“And from the unwashed in the rural sector. That will really be a great day.�

The rural sector is non-democratic. It is true everywhere and not just Pakistan. Weaker the rural sector vote, stringer the democracy would be.

Don’t disenfranchising them but make them move to the cities or bring industry to them.

#297 Posted by tahmed32
“I think you should watch some of the talk shows on geo or aajtv or dawn tv. They come across at least as insightful and well-mannered as anything you will find on US tv.�

That is correct but they are just a simple order away from being un-insightful. Historically, the media supports the govt. They have to work within the system. It is true not only for Pakistan but for all western democracies and India too.

Did the US media ever challenge the current admin over the fake reason for Iraq war? They never challenged the US admin over Vietnam. They will do a few things here and there for cya but nothing more than that.

In Pakistani media, just check how much media coverage the Information Minister gets compared to the other ministers in the govt.

Re: # 290
"Remember, media like the judiciary have to be the balancing act between executive and opposition, if they take sides then there will be no objectivity and trust will be compromised."

You said the most beautiful things as above, but the media in the end happens to be taking sides, and goes with the wind like "thali ka baigan" rolling to the side that tips down with its weight.

Re: # 293
to add to that, a truck with shipping container with a load of Quran-e-Pak was also burned down in the same vicinity as these factory workers.
The driver of the truck pleaded before the truck was set on fire and told the hoodlums that all it contains is several thousand copies of Quran-e-Pak yet it was set on fire.

tahmed sahib:

You would agree that "safety" is a subjective and relative concept. It is precisely because of this that the "army" is able to control politics in Pakistan. It is not much different in India. The Congress was able to do such a thing till very recently. It still hopes to do so. What is different in today's India is that many more parties are able to do so. This brings in political competition and the unwashed are slightly better off.

p.s. I like the term "unwashed". It gives a large set of people SOME identity. I am a bit against this "same-same" political correctness.

#301 and please dont use demeaning terms like "unwashed" for those not blessed with running hot and cold showers in the house like you. just be glad for your good fortune and leave it at that!!

in #300 below, that should be #294, not #292.

#295 Posted by HP:

".... These guys are not going away and I think they will become the lightening rod that will eventually help develop a democratic society in Pakistan. I hope in due course, they will have support from the students and the trade unions....."

And from the unwashed in the rural sector. That will really be a great day.

GT brother: please read #292 and then tell me what I have missed. Pakistanis are fighting for this very society based on laws and basic rights for all where this need to protect does not exist. mqm has chosen to fight for the status quo of dictatorship where no individual (regardless of ethnic group) is safe.

for an intelligent person like you, surely this cant be such an elusive concept!!

#294 Posted by tahmed32:

tahmed sahib:

Yes, the MQM indulges in ghoodaism and supports/supported the dictator. This same ghoondaism (burning people etc.) and support for the dictator also keeps the MQM's support base "safe" from the ghoondas of the PPP, JI etc. You cannot selectively condemn one group or the other .... actually, you can, but it is of no use. MQM will dissapear on its own, when the "NEED" to protect its support base dissapears. As long as Punjabi, Sindhi, balochi chauvanism exist and has the potential to be violent ... MQM, will exist and will be violent .... dictator or no dictator.

#294 Posted by tahmed32:

tahmed sahib:

Yes, the MQM indulges in ghoodaism and supports/supported the dictator. This same ghoondaism (burning people etc.) and support for the dictator also keeps the MQM's support base "safe" from the ghoondas of the PPP, JI etc. You cannot selectively condemn one group or the other .... actually, you can, but it is of no use. MQM will dissapear on its own, when the "NEED" to protect its support base dissapears. As long as Punjabi, Sindhi, balochi chauvanism exist and has the potential to be violent ... MQM, will exist and will be violent .... dictator or no dictator.

HP #295 I think you should watch some of the talk shows on geo or aajtv or dawn tv. They come across at least as insightful and well-mannered as anything you will find on US tv. And also remember that scores of Pakistani journalists have lost their lives the past few years as they have sought to cover what musharraf would like to keep hidden.

I fully agree with you on the key role played by the lawyers in Pakistan. They have proven to the world that Pakistanis are second to none when it comes to standing up for principle and the rule of law. God bless them all and particularly the Chief Justice - who may not speak english as fluently as many "desi babus" in drawing rooms in rawalpindi or new york, but who understands the difference between a civilized society and an uncivilized one better than them.

Re: # 286 HP
Your arguments are methodical and logical to a certain extent(i wish i have the flair and consistency to write something like this).But your conclusions are flawed.Army understands its limitations and it also understands the importance of strong civilian institutions in todays world,but it has no faith in the intellectual capacity of our political leadership and you cannot blame them for that.Army has taken an ardous job of social engineering that it has taken before after the the death of Zia.The difference is this time army is more savy and chances are it will do better.
All this crap about shift in the stratigic doctrine of pak army is utter nonsense.pak army is trained for territorial war with offencive and defencive capabilities and it has no plan to change that,although it wants to acquire additional capabilities to fight insurgency.There is nothing to negotiate with talibans or neo-talibans.Within next few months there is going to be a vicious war with these talibans and you are going to need all the capabilities that you have or you wish to have.

#291 Posted by rf786
Ada HP comes out with great posts on Pakistan,
#289 Posted by IB
Ada HP is Ada when hes thinking without a Sindhi Cap On!

Thanks arif and IB… Different strokes for different folks.

About the media being the critic. That is pure bull! The Pakistani media is not mature enough to provide any constructive criticism or even act as political opposition. They are in the whole thing to make some bucks and have very little interest in the real problems facing the country. I hope they do a good job of just providing the info and do it honestly.

The real opposition to the govt. is sitting inside with the govt. The first is the army with a mighty weight and the second is the MLn which would keep the PPP government in check and cut their feet off if they (MLn) get a whiff of any move that does not sit well with them.

The only opposition outside of the government is the lawyer movement. These guys are not going away and I think they will become the lightening rod that will eventually help develop a democratic society in Pakistan. I hope in due course, they will have support from the students and the trade unions.

#281 IB bhai: at this time, as i wrote in #257, Pakistanis have for a full year been fighting to save their country from a military dictator, and for a society where justice is blind and the basic rights of all are respected. "Basic rights" and the "rule of law" are for every individual - not for this ethnic group or that religious group or this economic class or that economic class.

if musharraf had succeeded in his original intention of retaining absolute control by being head of the army as well as president, what makes you think that your basic rights would have been any safer than those of the poor people of baluchistan and nwfp whom he kidnapped and "disappeared" as part of his strategy for staying in power? what makes you think the military would not have continued to be the major beneficiary of musharraf's illegal rule??

mqm has chosen to side on the side of the dictator and indeed to engage in murder of peaceful demonstrators on may 12. dont be fooled by the sweet talk of mqm - if they dont care for the lives or rights of innocent people who happen to belong to some other party or group, rest assured this sweet talk would be replaced by the ugly face of ghoondaism in no time. if the rest of pakistan let them get away with it.

To keep things in perspective six workers were burnt to death, when a factory was burned down during riots on the 28th of December.

rf#285 and now does "complete breakdown of law and order" translate into calling for the military in case of a "difference of opinion"??!! What i am saying here is what any democratic government in the world would do. because the alternative is "might is right".

if this is the best you can do, then clearly i was right first time in saying that you are wasting your time and my time trying to make up convenient "facts".

Re: # 289

IB,

Ada HP comes out with great posts on Pakistan, but when it comes to thalyar Mojos something snaps leading to a Jeckyl and Hyde transformation.

Re: # 277

{Media's role is also to point out and criticize shortcomings of Government. Remember, it is 'media', not just a Reuter ticker of news}

Role of opposition for media that is what is being debated, not their function as reporting and critic role. Remember, media like the judiciary have to be the balancing act between executive and opposition, if they take sides then there will be no objectivity and trust will be compromised.

Re: # 288 - I back arif mian'
Ada HP is Ada when hes thinking without a Sindhi Cap On!

Re: # 286

HP Saeen,

Absolutely right, well said.

Ada Saeen, such insight without any provocation coming from the same person who can dive into racial slurs, what gives?

#274 Posted by zeemax

What's that about?

The new CM of Balochistan (Dawn, April 10)

“...Gwadar is a .... mega problem for the Baloch because settlement of outsiders will deprive the natives of their right to sit in this house. The settlement of outsiders will be conditional and they will have no right to vote or contest elections,�

#240 Posted by ferozk

“You may be right, but in the foreseeable future, the army has no interest in meddling in politics because it has serious professional-institutional issues, which need to be addressed on an urgent basis.�

I am not sure the army has even stepped back. The army may not have a face in the President House but its soul is very much there. Not figuring out what the Pakistan army is and how it operates leads to making false assumptions about the army. I have said it before and I will say this again that currently Pakistan’s politics is army’s politics. The civilians, this time around, have made some headway and are able to present a better and a formidable alliance than their previous attempts. They may get a slightly better reward for that but there is really no real or fundamental swing in Pakistani politics. The structural changes required for keeping the army out of the loop are just not there. The struggle in Pakistan will continue to be between the army and the civilians and this battle will go on until the civilians have the balls-which they get from the people and developed political institutions in the country-to finally end the army intervention in civilian affairs.

Pakistan has never had any established political institutions such as the parliament, strong political parties with mature politicians, a strong judicial system, and the educational institutions that develop social conscientiousness in the middle class. These weaknesses make it harder for the civilians to thwart army interference in the political and in the state affairs. We may gloat over the current successes but it is still dependent on the army’s goodwill and the politicians’ ability to work with the army. The army will cut this off as and when they see the game getting out of hand.

Analysts and political operatives both in Pakistan and outside know that this political alliance still cannot get the Baloch leaders out, it still cannot get Dr. Qadeer out, and it is still dilly-dallying on the judges’ issue. These issues are strongly linked with the army. This is just a partial list of the visible issues. The invisible issues are the US influence in the Pak army, the army’s financial concerns, the arms supplies that it gets from the US, and the jihadist set up that works entirely under the army diktat. There is a long list of to do things in Pakistan and all items have a distinct army stamp on them.

“The Pakistani army's threat preception is under going a paradigmic shift from a conventional external threat assessment based on India specific orientation to an internal threat assessment based on non-state actors specific to an internal insurgency. “

Yes, I have read that in the papers too. But do you really believe that? Is the army equipped to make these fundamental changes or is it a convenient excuse for not doing anything? It takes years to change the orientations from the external threat to internal threats. The Pak army has no tools to implement this neither would it change the existing orientation for the simple reason that any change would require it to drop its current arsenal and reduce the army size for swift actions that are required for dealing with the internal threats. There is nothing that suggests that the Pak army has the intellectual capital and the tools to make these changes. Armies don’t change their orientations in a matter of days. It is a process that requires meticulous planning, resources and the political will. The US army is still struggling with the orientation changes that are still going on after ten or more years. Cheney presented his plan when he was SecDef in the Bush sr. cabinet.

So give up these false hopes and ideas that are presented to bring in more US military advisers in the country. See the game instead of believing in the rhetoric.

“The military will leave the matters in the hands of the civilians while it concentrates on revamping its fighting doctrines based on fighting on the plains of Punjab and deserts of Sindh and making them tuned to needs of fighting in the mountains of FATA and the urban environments of the Pakistani cities. “

Yeah, if wishes were horses!


“Hence, my reasons why it would be hestitant to re-enter politics any time soon.�

It never left. The separation of the Chief of the army staff and the President functions shouldn’t fool anyone in believing that the army will leave things in the civilian’s hands. The army has access to 70% of the assembly members, whether they are from the PPP or the MLn. The leash is not really long. That’s why I said watch the game as it is being played out.

Re: # 272

tahmed32

Enclosed please find your post #96 on the same forum:

{#96 Posted by tahmed32 on April 12, 2008 4:21:50 am
#87 agreed that mqm and its followers have an inflated sense of their own strength and cleverness. and agreed that even in urban karachi they would be no match if the other ethnic groups they routinely target chose to give them a taste of their own medicine.

but there would have to be complete break-down of law and order in karachi for that to happen. and i dont see the rest of pakistan standing idly by in that case - the military would simply be brought in and they would have a curfew of something.}

Facts speak for themselves.

Re: # 283 ohoo that i know but haven't seen it - yaara i think youtube is blocked by my isp or something - everytime i type youtube - google comes !!!!

#282 Posted by IB,

Arrey bhai search for musharraf drunk or something on YouTube and you'll find it.

Re: # 280 kay-ree vedio pa-jee?

T-Ahmed ,Bhai jab 'ehtasab' kerna hain tu across the board kejeyay - bila tafreeq, without discrimination with neutrality instead of targeting one community, ethnic group or a political party – target everyone and I will be the first person to lend my life for such a cause.

#269 Posted by IB,

Haven't you seen the video on YouTube?

#273 IB bhai: that is what i mean in #257 on the need for Pakistanis to join hands to protect democracy with even PPP not being given a free reign to do as it pleases. As the americans have been saying for decades - eternal vigilance is the price of liberty. Human beings are not angels - and unless you have democratic checks and balances, those who claim to represent us today will be the ones bullying us tomorrow!

#276 Posted by tahmed32,

Absolutely.

#267 Posted by rf786,

No Arif saheb. Media's role is also to point out and criticize shortcomings of Government. Remember, it is 'media', not just a Reuter ticker of news.

zeemax #257 Glad we agree on this. I think the freedom struggle of 2007 has been a great learning experience on democracy for all Pakistanis.

You can see the trend worldwide actually - latin america and east europe saw the fall of the dictators at the end of the cold war, and have shifted to peceful democracies focussed on improving lives of their people. pakistan and some african countries (notably kenya) are going through a freedom struggle today, and have largely won it. Turkey put the military in its place a couple of years back. the middle east is the last place on earth that is still safe for "hosni mubaraks" of the world, and no doubt their time too is coming in the middle east.

#268 Posted by IB,

Thanks. I will.

#265 Posted by GT,.

The CM of a neighboring state announces that "outsiders" should not vote in that state!

What's that about? Which neighboring State?

BTW you're right about the cornered part.

Re: # 272 tahmed bhai,
what about the 27th December Episode? all the cases has been declared 'void' by the present government?

#270 rf: why dont you just abuse me for speaking out against mqm ghoondas, rather than making up convenient "facts"?

Where am I calling for force again people simply because they disagree with me? If you cant answer the second question, then dont waste my time and your time making up lies.

I call for the use of force against those who break the law - e.g. those who committed the atrocities of may 12 and of april 9. and those ghoondas dont need an army operation - an honest policeman is all that is needed, as they themselves prove by howling against the removal of policemen who looked the other way while they committed their atrocities against innocent people!!

Re: # 266 IB
I am glad that you have intellectual integrity,and i am not patronizing

Re: # 249

tahmed32

{..those who live on the ground believe that it is constitutional checks and balances and basic freedoms of speech and vote that keeps a check on the executive.}

Sounds hypocritical coming From someone who propagates using army operation on people who disagree with his viewpoint.

Wasay I’ve serious reservations about the programme ‘bolta Pakistan’ on AAJ – it also happens to my favorite show. Nusrat Javed at times steps out of line – his comments about President ‘dancing with the glass on his head’ were offending.

I mean these guys / anchors on tele are actually a party to this and are bias.

Dr.Imran Farooq's Number? 00447947805963 (pls, ask his whereabouts)

Re: # 252

I disagree, like Mujeeb Shami rightly said, media does not perform the role of opposition, their role is to report events and may I add it should be objective, impartial reporting.

Well Dr. Imran Farooq has known to have a ‘more militant’ , ‘army man alike’ approach to issues although there(s) no doubt Dr.Imran Farooq is ‘Mr. Clean’ in terms of wealth in MQM. The bugger does not have a mortgaged house of his own in the UK whereas he still maintains his house (previously in Lalukhait) now in Aziazbad of 120 sq yards which two of his brothers, mother still lives. Dr.Imran Farooq drive a Vauxhall Vectra ‘V’ reg (2000) back in London – which further proves his image of Mr. Clean.

Saleem Shezad is made the spokesman of MQM (now days) because of his better speaking power as compared to Dr.Imran Farooq. Saleem bhai is vocal and is aggressive in nature as compared to Dr.Sahab.

As rightly pointed out that the media acts as an opposition but we should not forget the role of ‘real opposition’ – we as a nation blindly trusts people, sometimes without a rationale which should be stopped. I personally at times, go beyond limits in actually defending MQM as if I am a paid by them. I am desperately trying to change but still sensitive about my ethnic group and the sufferings of our people.

There are two issues I would like to touch upon:

1. dost_mittar talked about the "Delhi Culture", and some (HP, I think) implied that it was because of the influx of bhaiyyas from UP and Bihar. I do not think so. IMO it has more to do with migrants from East Punjab. I may be wrong, but compare Mumbai and Delhi.

2. While blaming MQM is fine and dandy, why refrain from criticizing other chauvanist/funadamentalist groups (with their own lumpen elements). Have they murdered less when they wielded power? The CM of a neighboring state announces that "outsiders" should not vote in that state! Nobody, in chowk (full of democrats and secularoons), has taken that up! With neighbors like that, why shouldn't the MQM behave like a cornered cat? Now please do not give the cause/effect bs ....

Re: # 258

Zeemax Paiyaan,

Saleem Shehzad is no role model, he is the low life of MQM like any other political party (Liaqat Baloch, Khawaja Asif, Rehman Malik) MQM has people who are used for the dirty job.

Imran Farooq is a true political worker and one can only pray that he is not sidelined. As for his whereabouts, well he was last heard from London, rest is "conjecture".

Re: # 262 zemax
you can be easily swayed

#261 Posted by treetop,

... meaning?

Re: # 251 zemax
You are susceptible like a teenage girl.

#259 Posted by dost_mittar,

It can be undone. But I doubt it will be undone, Dost.

zee:

Thanks. It's a worrisome development for ahl-e-harb. I wonder if anyone can undo the damage wrought by that nitwit in the white house.

Re #255 ... let me answer my own question since no one else is volunteering.

It is because Saleem Shehzad imitates pir saheb perfectly ... though doesn't growl as much yet. But he will. It is succession planning. Imran Farooq is probably dead.

#256 Posted by tahmed32,

Well said Sir. Every word of this post.

#252 zeemax: the free press has been called the "watchdog of democracy" in the UK and US for centuries now. also called the "fourth estate". i.e. being the fourth power center, with the other three - in the european society of the middle ages at least - being of course the king, nobles and the church.

But she is only half right - how long can a free press be free if the executive is not curbed by constitutional checks and balances (i.e. the judiciary and the legislature)?

while at this time when the future of the nation has been put in jeopardy by the dictator (along with his coterie of lotas and racist and religious ghoondas), it is understandable for all democratic forces in Pakistan to form a coalition - once the nation has been stabilized (and ghoondaism and dictatorship put behind bars), we should hope for the coalition to be replaced by a respectable opposition.

So, coming to Ferzana Raja's statement, we should remain watchful for any tendencies towards downplaying any kind of check and balance - whether it is the need for a responsible opposition, or it is the judiciary. Thus - the judges should have been restored on day 1, when they were freed. The delays and mixed signals by zardari to this aspect is worrisome, although the PMLN clarity on this issue indicates that NS has learnt the lessons of democracy the hard way.

I have a question with MQM supporters.

What happened to Dr. Imran Farooq? Where is he? Why is Saleem Shehzad the new spokesman of the MQM Secretariat in London?

Our future lies with Sindh and the Sindhi's (it has everything required to become a viable state). The Sindhi's will have to deal with it and so will we. However, co-existence can not take place when one community feels the other owes them something and blames them for all kinds of things they regularly pull out of their ass. The military establishment (which includes the jihadi maderchods), will once again be looking to use Karachi as a convenient distraction so they can kiss and make up. However, one community must resist the temptation of temporary gains and turn away the mercenaries sent their way otherwise it will be war aur end mein kuch bhi nahi bachay gaa.

...contd...#250

Yes. That applies to Pakistani Taliban as well. Actually, now they're one and the same with the Afghan Taliban. No distinction between them can be made.

#249 Posted by tahmed32,

tahmed32, Farzana Raja of PPP said something brilliant just now on Capital Talk. She said "Media key hotey huey hamain kisi opposition ki zaroorat nahi hai"

I think that is a fantastic realization ... and thanks Farzana Raja for putting your finger on it clearly.

#246 Posted by treetop re Re: # 242

Why do you think IB is an exception?

Why do I think IB is an exception? It is because he offered me tea & biscuits in a private message and regretted the mutual diatribe.

Is that too distant from your imagination, Sir?

#245 Posted by dost_mittar,

Dost ... correct. This is the 'neo-Taliban'. Much more potent than the Afghan war one. There was a lengthy article I had reproduced here by a British journalist who had interviewed many of them.

You see, what happened was that the previous 'Taliban' were just Afghan nationalists. Not anymore. Now they're Islamists - which of-course follows you think in Ummah terms and not any particular country. This is what happened after people tried to bomb them into oblivion for no fault of theirs. Now, they believe West is evil - period!

Sigh ...

#248 treetop: the view from the treetop is obvioulsy different from the view on the ground - those who live on the ground believe that it is constitutional checks and balances and basic freedoms of speech and vote that keeps a check on the executive. not the ghoonda-gardi of criminal gangs like mqm.

Re: # 244
Given the history of PPP it is hard to imagine anything good will flow from PPP.I reluctantly support MQM just to keep Sindhis and PPP in check.

I think the real corruption in police lies deep down as rightly stated with the Head Constables, ASI(s) level. On a personal level I know some ASIs maintaining a flat in Clifton and know a DSP who travels on a public transport and refuses perks.

Having said that I am in no way ridiculing the junior officers – there’s a huge economical and social pressure on them to earn although this is not an excuse.

Just today a friend’s cousin was stopped by Head Constable of the Ferozadad Police Station and was kept under arrest without any charges until I called to say ‘Kay yaar khuda ka khoof karo’.

Honestly after working on the Punjab Police – let me admit that Sind police works under more political pressure then our brothers / sisters in Punjab Police.

Re: # 242
Why do you think IB is an exception?
CSS is not a feather i would like to put in my cap.i cleared my css exam but refused to join(my father threw me out of his house and i have to leave the country).

zeemax:

A slight digression.

I watched this superb two-hour CBC documentary on Afghanistan, which you would have liked. It showed Afghans who thought that Taliban were bad now think that the present rulers are worse - they are both bad and corrupt while the taleban were at least not corrupt. But that would be old news to you. The new thing that they pointed out was the changed character of the taleban commanders; they are much younger than the older ones and different from their fathers; while the earlier commanders were more tribal than islamist in their outlook, the reverse is the case for the new commanders who are more like al qaeda people. Does the same apply to Pakistani taleban?

Honestly, I find Punjabis more compactable with us Urdus then Sindis, Phatans and Balcohis.

Arif Bhaisahab has a valid point that my brothers / sisters from North and Interior somehow do not have the problem with the suicide bombers or the venom from N.S and company. You see there’s a big difference in our perceptions.

There’s no doubt law and order situation went bad to worse on particular day in Karachi but compare that to the years when MQM ruled from 2002-2008 – apart from this 12th May, 27th December and this 9th April ; generally the situation has been satisfactory.

We sometimes confuse thugs and criminals as political goons – as someone who comes across with the criminals quite often I have witnessed that lot of minority members are part of the street crimes too apart from migrants from northern Pakistan in Karachi.

Btw, what do you guys think of ‘taking cases back of those who looted, raped, killed’ on 27th of December? The new Fascist PPP government is not prosecuting them just because they are “SINDHIS� and nothing more and this is why MQM is what MQM is in Sindh.

... not even mentioning who I know at the very top of Police personally ... in both Karachi and Lahore.

#239 Posted by treetop,

Really? I accepted IB's offer of peace because of him as a person, whom I think is a good person.

If I have anything with police, everyone knows you just have to buy a thana. I wrote about that in a previous post. Police waley apney baap key bhi nahi hotey (not IB of-course, I hasten to add). The CSS graduates are all good people who are inducted as ASP, but either they become thanedars or they can't function at all. Please ask IB if I'm wrong.

#236 Posted by dost_mittar,

Dost, lemme tell you something. The MQM supporters wouldn't be so nice and kind if they were not in a defensive position now.

re: HP # 123

HP, first of all, there is no denying the fact that the presently elected government's task is the most difficult of any Pakistani government since 1947. The multicipility of the problems are mind-boggling and as I said before, the levels of expectations from the person to have his/her problems solved is so acute, that this government does not have much room to maneuver. This government needs time; a commodity, which it is fast running out of and in this sense, I agree with you that we have to watch the game unfold because there is not much else we can do in the present situation.

As to the army, I still maintain the army is not interested in politics. It has been burned badly by the last eight years and it needs to repair its image. The army in Pakistan may have corporate interests, which require a political engagement, but the army will seek another course to keep those interests secure. The army is not keen to save the civilians and there is a growing in feeling in the army to show the civilian politicans as a bumbling, failing lot to the people.

Agreed that it is the obligation of the army to ensure law and order, and it will undertake this only in the most dire of circumtances.

You may be right, but in the foreseeable future, the army has no interest in meddling in politics because it has serious professional-institutional issues, which need to be addressed on an urgent basis. The Pakistani army's threat preception is under going a paradigmic shift from a conventional external threat assessment based on India specific orientation to an internal threat assessment based on non-state actors specific to an internal insurgency.

The military will leave the matters in the hands of the civilians while it concentrates on revamping its fighting doctrines based on fighting on the plains of Punjab and deserts of Sindh and making them tuned to needs of fighting in the mountains of FATA and the urban environments of the Pakistani cities.

Hence, my reasons why it would be hestitant to re-enter politics any time soon.

Ciao

Re: # 236
zemax never displayed traits for a sentimental union.IB is ASP in karachi and zemax lives there,this union can come in handy.

#235 Posted by tahir,

and those who even thought of doing the same but were afraid of being ridiculed or abused.

... I didn't see any. There're none even in that category.

#234 Posted by rf786,

Your own personal conjectures ... conjectures.

hamidm2#180:

Au contrair, it is a harbinger of good tidings. After all that gaali-galoch, it all ended with "hamari gali aana, achhaji, chaaye pe bulaana, achhaji". As the poet said,

Bahut mazaa us takraar mein hai
Jo iqraar ho jaaye takraar ke baad!

Dear brothers in faith,

Don't let CHOWK's new look fool you into thinking that some 'new management' has taken over and that things will suddenly improve. If they do at all, let it be known that I have repeatedly requested CHOWK editors to MODERATE and control the RAW-agents who have nothing better to do than analyse Pakistani news and then stoop to abusing Islam and the Prophets by pretending to be interacters!

There is deathly silence at the editor's desk. Surprised? Not only this, they are guilty of killing quite a few of my articles over the years! I beleive, they still have not received the 'security clearance' to publish them.

One door closes but many others will open. CHOWK is not the final frontier; that it has degenerated into a hate-site should not come as a surprise to those who have turned it into one.

One evening's worth of search reveals that these anti-Islam half-humans will not reform. They are nicely linked; most 'kufr' is anyway. That goodnes stands squabbling amongst itself is a sad situation and I expect that born-Muslim interacters here will remember who they are, where they come from, and where they might be headed if they join hands with 'highly-educated satans'.

Indeed, the Qur'an calls all such persons who lapse into utter unbelief 'monkeys' and 'pigs'. Why? Because the outward behaviour and moral decadence begins to resemble that of such animals.

I must thank those who stood up for me, and those who even thought of doing the same but were afraid of being ridiculed or abused.

There are three kinds of men in this world; fighters, collaborators, and traitors.

See where you fit!

Regards.

Re: # 232

PML-N did not have any chance of winning in Sindh or Baluchistan cause they simpy do not have any form of grassroot support or political base.

PML-N is afterall as they would say in Karachi a Pukar Dukkar eleven, meaning the Unionist Party of today, ruled by a few elites who attract those with similar ideals or those willing to be bought by the highest bidder. Nawaz Sharif is not a politician who has worked his way up or be part of a process that produces party leaders. He was handpicked by that olloo ka phatta Zia and continues to behave in the same vein, as if though its his birth right to preside over the rest.

Only parties with grassroot support or political structure and ideologies are JI, ANP, MQM, JUI and to a certain extent PPP. Rest are easily tradeable commodities.

Re: # 231

Zeemax

I think you are deliberatly trying to paint Sindhi's as a no good, lazy dimwit.

I protest.

Even though Molotov cocktails may sound Russian, all they require is an empty bottle, petrol and piece of cloth. Now how long does that take? More importantly, what makes you beleieve that other methods were not used.

#230 Posted by rf786,

PML-N did not contest in Sindh because of seat-adjustment with PPP. Did not have enough candidates in Baluchistan due to the one-day notice before last date for filing of nominations when NS was allowed back. As for NWFP, I think they swept Hazara.

#229 Posted by rf786,

No it is true. It was established Molotov cocktails were used (confirmed by musharraf himself) in interior Sindh to set fires. How many rural Sindhis know how to make Molotov cocktails or learn at notice of less than an hour?

Re: # 227

Nawaz Sharif has adopted federalism, yet his vote bank was limited to Punjab and that too by a thumping majority. Again, another example of how they conducted their political campaign which was completly Punjab oriented.

As for the Chaudhry's, well PML-Q has NA seats in all four (if not three) provinces and their vote bank was far more than that of PML-N. If they were using the Punjabi slogan then that feat would not have been possible.

Finally, on the subject of suicide bombers targeting army, well that is absolutely rubbish propaganda. Blowing up girl schools, CD shops, beheading opponents, killing innocent civilians calling them collateral damage these are just some examples of their terrorizing (Bush). More importantly, you refer to the pak Army as a foreign entity and these terrorists as freedom fighters, I disagree and regardless of their political agenda consider them as murderers and enemies of the state.

Re: # 228

Is this sarcasm or for real?

#225 Posted by rf786,

The riots were pre-planned and organized by the same people who killed Benazir. Of-course it wasn't PPP.

#224 Posted by rf786 Re: # 220

Nawaz Sharif going around singing Jaag Punjab Jaag?

He's not doing it anymore. On the contrary, the previous Chaudhries Govt i.e. MQM's ally was doing just that. Still MQM made them bhai bhai. NS has adopted Federalism after learning from past mistakes.

You do not have a problem with the suicide bombers who have run amok in the country killing hundreds if not thousands, yet you cry foul when MQM or Mohajirs are seen as the perpetrators.

I haven't heard of any suicide bomber burning alive any lawyers in their office. They have been targeting armed forces in revenge for every attack on them. It's a war between Pakistan Army and the Militants. The two cannot be compared. And yes, that too is a problem for me.

#223 Posted by harish_hyd,

Well ... Pakistan Government has a reward of Rs. 75 (or similar) per tail of wild-boars. I'm sure it's extinction is exactly the objective in Pakistan. No one will miss it. They even attack villagers.

Re: # 217

HP Saeen

Hope you sleep well....

{Sindh cabinet withdraws all Dec 27 riot cases

KARACHI: The Sindh Cabinet on Sunday decided to withdraw all terrorism cases registered against citizens following riots that erupted after the assassination of former premier Benazir Bhutto on December 27, 2007.}

Re: # 220

Zee,

I have simply stated the obvious.

If Karachi has a serios problem what does Punjab represent when you have Nawaz Sharif going around singing Jaag Punjab Jaag?

Its a matter of perspective. You do not have a problem with the suicide bombers who have run amok in the country killing hundreds if not thousands, yet you cry foul when MQM or Mohajirs are seen as the perpatrators.

#218 by zeemax

Hunting of wild-boar is illegal in India? That's odd because actually it is a terrible menace for crops.

Yes it is (though I'm not sure if it applies to every state). Since it is considered staple by many tribals and even non-tribals (city folks) have taken a liking to it, if the ban is lifted, there'd be wide-spread slaughter of the animal and would probably push it towards extinction.

re #219, the same amendment which NS tried to bring for which he was accused of trying to become 'amir-ul-minineen' or in your words 'Fuerher' will be brought again.

That amendment was exactly what is called 'Supremacy of Parliament' which everyone is shrieking for now.

Re: # 217

HP Saeen,

Churri or Churryian does it matter, we know what you meant, I still stand by my challenge. Please do feel free to test your theory and this time do it yourself for a change that is if you can.

And please do not preach what you cannot practice.

#216 Posted by rf786,

Yaar even I and IB saheb agreed to stop with the testosterone. Do you want to join-in in the goodwill? I think we all agree Karachi has a serious problem and it shouldn't get worse.

To all,

Beware of the Punjoo virus called Nawaz Sharif, the next Fuerher of the land of pure. We have Zeemax a shining example of a foot soldier that aptly reflects their mediocrity and narrow minded vision.

#215 Posted by harish_hyd,

Hunting of wild-boar is illegal in India? That's odd because actually it is a terrible menace for crops.

#216 Posted by rf786

Wow Arif,

That was good but you are wrong I never said they wear churiyan.
I said Churri(Knife) baaz and ChuRri( Sparrow) maar.

You see a little play on the words got you in so much rage. That rage makes you guys blind and then you do what you do including burning and stealing cadavers.

Now don't be mean...I got to go sleep now. It is almost midnight here.

Re: # 190

Dear HP Saeen

I have been trying to keep away from this jingoistic diatribes, but you seem to be that vile parasite that needs to be treated with disinfectants.

Lets talk about the Sindhi.

While the Sindhi lies on his charpayee his women folk are working the fields. Such a great example.

Sindhi culture idolizes thuggery, banditry which is demonstrated so blatantly by Sindhi landlords as a sign of their power.

Sindh is the worst when it comes to feudalism, poor peasnets are treated as slaves.

When it comes to defending their honor they kill their women folk and receive compensation in kind.

Culturally, the common Sindhi has never been allowed to evolve, they still live in their small, narrow minded petty world.

Worst of all, they lick the ass of the same aryan race that hanged their leader and killed his daughter, they do it with no shame.

Finally, HP Saeen, if you believe that Mohajirs are wearing Churryian then please do feel free to test your theory, why then invite Suddle or Burbur for your dirty work, unless you belong to a khassi nation.

#213 by zeemax

Wild boar is considered a delicacy by many here too. City folks who visit national parks and sanctuaries always make sure they ask small-time hotel (bigger hotels do not allow them because it can land them into problems) owners if they can arrange for wild boar. Though hunting for wild boar is illegal, tribals living inside or on the edges of forests kill and sell them to these hotel owners.

#208 Posted by IB

Yeah, thats a problem with you uncouth agrawals. You would spit out caviar thinking that it is sturgeon's sh1t.

#211 Posted by harish_hyd,

I'm not sure about any lizards, but I do know they do not touch wild-boar. They hunt them and give it to the Hindu community.

#207 Posted by HP,

Well ... that's what the constitution says. A 'joint session', but I also remember the 15th amendment of NS was passed separately in Parliament and was being held up in Senate who hadn't pass it till the coup. Maybe there's some proviso I'm not aware of.

#210 by IB

IB bhai, lizard?????????? Ugh!!!!

Re: # 209 harish bhai,
its a big lizard!!! arabs eat it too..

#208 by IB

What is it made of?

HP Chacha, tell me about the 'gos' in Sindh. It’s a delicacy right? I once ate kebabs unknowingly and then the host told me whats it made of and I puked. Although kebabs were good.

#204 Posted by zeemax

You may be right. I thought the amendment has to go through the NA and the Senate for a separate pass.

#201 Posted by izuber

Please refrain from copy pasting those old ridiculous, meaningless, and completely stupid phrases.
shooo...

Izuber bhai – wasay I respect your views – specially one in which you called for the UN probe. You are an honest man in a not so honest world.

#199 Posted by HP,

I said:

The 2/3 plus majority in Parliament already exists with a comfortable margin, and the required 2/3rd majority in a joint-session will be easily achieved even without a 2/3rd in senate alone. How many senators does MQM have?

This means the excess over and above 2/3rd Parliament will make up for any shortfall in Senate in a Joint Session. That's the constitutional requirement as I understand it.

Izuber bhai – are you Amir Liaqat Hussain Auntie?

Re: # 199 HP Chacha, my first posting was in the rural of Sindh. I enjoyed the hospitality - it was all togather an eye opener - the poverty and billion year old rotten traditions. Now about 'Powas' , yaar dont underestimate the power of 'urdus' anytime, anywhere - pls. Fazool Ke Baat hain!

Zeemax Bhai, honestly, I dont have a clue who those bastar** were on the bikes :P

#190 HP
Sad to learn that you were at the end of the que when brains were being distributed and you end up bringing a strainer to collect the remnants which you lost on your way back home.

Keep looking for the next distribution which is suspended till further notice and keep your empty coconut clean to collect when it is distributed next time.

Your name is once again at the end of the waiting list.

Maybe my reliable source is not as reliable anymore. Its astonishing why MQM were clueless about S.S posting as IGP Sindh while the gossip mongers at our head quarters has been discussing the news since day before yesterday.

MQM(s) real problem is that MQM is not happy about the attitude of some MNA(s) and MPA(s) of Sindh and the newly found Sindhi-gardi by an average Sindhi after PPP(s) government in Sindh.

The news is that the MQM wanted 40% share at the Sindh level and at least 3 ministries (port & shipping, communication and local bodies) but the PPP was not sure and wanted time.

Zee , I think MQM got 3 Senators but that could be checked (i am not so sure about this one)

Zee,
"I don't think MQM makes any difference in removal of 58-2(b)"

Senate, Senate! my dear Watson!

Bhatijay IB, you don't have any powa bigger than mine. You are pretty much history, if you cross me here. Larkana or Khairpur?? Don't even think about those cities.

#196 Posted by HP,

Yes PPP is under lots of pressure to investigate.

#195 Posted by IB,

IB Saheb, serious question. Who do you think those 100 guys on motorbikes were? Surely they couldn't be from the agencies.

Zeee, My another guess is that they were told that the 9th April will be investigated. In couple of days, I will probably talk to someone and find out the real reason. But I think the PPP tried to do more than what was expected of them.

HP Uncle: Janab – I have what we call a ‘powa’ / ‘parchi’. Alhumdullah, I sleep good and with the grace of Allah earned a reputation of an honest officer. Posting me to Larkana or even Kherpur Mirus – would seriously be a big favor. I have my personal views which the constitution of Pakistan guarantees and then I have a job which I do – without discrimination. A criminal to me is a criminal – whatever b.s I utter and I am sure Sir, with all the venom against Urdus from you – you don’t mean most of it from your heart.

Izubair bhai sahab – with due respect, yaar unfortunately ‘nationalism’ is a better bonding force in Pakistan then religion (specially in Pakistans case).

Hamid Mian – bhai the interaction between me and zeemax was embarrassing – blame it on arjun!!!! And yeah, we will have dinner or something in future – you are invited too.Wasay wheres your Sheikh Rashid bhai? And your thoughts on Raja Pervaz?

Now a bit on Phatans – and a large number of them has infested my city – Karachi. Accoring to CPLC and Sind Police Survey which was conducted during the computerization of records – we noticed most of the crimes (specially bank robberies, arson attacks, decoities and drug trade) is actually commited by migrants who does not own a Karachi Domocile and a great percentage of them are actually phatans. And we narrow them down to the agencies – an average phatan from Mardan is a hard worker but a person coming from the tribal belt is one we should be eyeing on.

... further, I don't think MQM makes any difference in removal of 58-2(b). The 2/3 plus majority in Parliament already exists with a comfortable margin, and the required 2/3rd majority in a joint-session will be easily achieved even without a 2/3rd in senate alone. How many senators does MQM have?

#191 Posted by HP,

I suspect another reason. The ministries they were being offered were not powerful enough. With the posting of Suddle and Rao Anwaar plus massive shake-up expected soon in the entire Karachi police high-ups, MQM is preparing to go underground.

I'm sure the Sindh Government will go to any lengths in locating those 100 guys on motorbikes and who ordered them.

#175 Posted by IB,

Suddle Sahib as IGP, Sind ... although MQM was taken into confidence before the summary was send to the establishment division and interior ministry respectively.

That's not what Farooq sattar said in yesterday's press conference. He actually said they had decided to sit in opposition BECAUSE of Suddle's posting without consulting MQM.

#184 Posted by zeemax on April 13, 2008 7:20:33 pm
So, HP, MQM decides to sit in opposition in Sindh. Comment?

Mush baba was not able to call them in time for them to make up there mind. So they did what was expected of him.

They will come around begging soon as they need power badly to collect Bahtta. That will happen after Mushy baba's departure or even before that!

Another idea is that they chickened out when they heard that the PPP would expect them to support the removal of 58-2b.

#180 Posted by hamidm2 on April 13, 2008 6:19:14 pm

“.... based on the friendly discourse between ib and zeemax we can predict which way karachi is headed ...... burn, baby, burn ! “

Do’t worry Karachi will not burn again.

These churria(birds) maar and churri(knives) baaz can only burn unarmed and peaceful citizens. They will get the Babar cure, if they don’t right themselves now.

Who would have ever thought Pakistan has the RSS goons in Karachi masquerading as the MQM.

#182 Izubair,
I could figure out neither head nor tail of your long harangue. But I can guess it to be another screed in support of the goons in your community. You are no different than the common criminals you support in Karachi. And drop this religious pontification, no one is converting here nor is impressed with that.

IB,
There is nothing in your post that we have not heard here before. Lies and more lies can’t change the facts on the ground. (Btw, Consult Salim for free advice on how not to defend Mohajirs.)
You are playing with fire. A police Officer in Karachi posts to defend the MQM and its goons is possibly a part of the gang that burnt innocent people in Karachi. Watch out, unless you really want to leave Karachi for some remote place in Balochistan.

Shoaib would be looking for Kaali BhaiRrs in the police department. A link to these posts would help him immensely:)

... BTW ... by drugs if you mean 'charas', they don't consider it haram!

#186 Posted by izuber,

Afghan-Pakhtoon refugees deal in drugs and other illegal activites? I thought most better-heeled of them were in the transport business and the less fortunate one's kids collect recyclable scrap.

Re: # 183
by the way you need to study a bit deeper into Afghan ethnicities than you may already have, while they must vacate Pakistan now specially Karachi pronto.

Re: # 183
Lanatullah min AlKadhibeen, Afghan-Pakhtoon refugees who deal in drugs and other illegal activites are not the kind that I would seek adherence to; even if that hurts you but it is the truth, and I can forgive you because you have already stated that you dont know anything about Karachi therefore I would be wrong if I called you ignorant.

#180 Posted by hamidm2,

No hamidm2, IB invited me for tea in the end :)

So, HP, MQM decides to sit in opposition in Sindh. Comment?

#181 " if all ethnicities in Pakistan can come to a resolution that the glue that adheres them to form the nation of Pakistan is none other than Allah SWT & HIS Prophet SAW/PBUH and the message conveyed by Quran-e-Hakeem"

the glue that adheres any society is respect for all communities in that society. the lack of which you betray in your bad mouthing pathans in your post.

Re: # 172
HP you need to learn to talk first before you began posting.......
"Yeah, right atrocities on Mohajir! What do you call burning people alive? Form a commission under Wajih uddin and Saeeduz zaman two respectable Mohjir judges and let them decide. You just can’t be happy that you and your generations got a safe place to grow and make your families prosper. You very well know what your relatives still do in India… barring a few who own podinay kay bagh!"
Typical envying mentality of who got what, by the people who carry a ruler to measure other's wealth and eyeing on it, shameful act of lowest level.
Alhamdulillah we prosper and will continue to prosper and if you are a follower of the faith we wish the same for you.

Re: # 172
1) we are not discussing people of Delhi and specially these days.
2) But of course if you ever heard the name of Sidney Cotton an Australian free lance pilot with his own plane that flew several times to Pakistan with all the wealth that was transferred to Pakistan was entirely provided by Mohajirs not to mention you may now be surprised to learn that the Mohajirs were also a considerable contributor to the Turks in undivided India as well as the same Mohajirs charity in pre-petro era supported and sponsored various Haj related activities in the KSA.
3) While you refer to the Mohajirs as being clerical workers may I mention here that these clerks were far superior in their knowledge of making a system work beyond the capabilities of current day highly qualified Civil Servants of today. Although your assertion in this regards is erroneous.
4) The majority of Mohajirs as opposed to your vision are highly qualified and hardworking and even after an ongoing attempt to place them behind any other ethnic group they have been able to maintain a very high standard when it comes to education and behavior.
5) When you discuss "class" I must mention here that there is no class if your faith is Islam, not being sure as to what faith you follow if any. All are created equal and no one has any superiority over the other, regardless of their color, national origin or language they speak. You state less than truth when you make an assertion about Mohajir's lying and making up stories, it took them 50+ years to began complaining and that too after having to deal with the Pakhtoon mafia of Afghanistan that sought refuge in Karachi and began pushing drugs/narcotics and selling arms, once faced they entangled and caused the development of an equally armed militia to beat the hell out of them.
Not knowing how much you know about Karachi, but there are areas in the city of Karachi cordoned off by these Afghan-Pakhtoon refugees where they conduct all types of anti social and illegal activities, from selling and pushing drugs and narcotics to homosexuality to rapes, murders and trade of weapons and ammunition. I am sure you would understand where it all started from?
Only if all ethnicities in Pakistan can come to a resolution that the glue that adheres them to form the nation of Pakistan is none other than Allah SWT & HIS Prophet SAW/PBUH and the message conveyed by Quran-e-Hakeem I see no other way that could resolve this tangled situation.

.... based on the friendly discourse between ib and zeemax we can predict which way karachi is headed ...... burn, baby, burn !

Re: # 177
being united is good , right? we sure are jew of pakistan! whats so wrong with it ?

Janab-e-Mohtaram,
You asked question as if you are a kid.
Here are some unbiased answers to your very biased questions.

a)Since you claim that mohajars are more civilized and litterate than rest of the society,why do you have a slimy and creepy Althaf as your leader?

Ans: Altaf Hussain founded the movement – as founder of the tahreek , hes respected. Personally (and I am being very honest ) I along with most of the voters of MQM quietly are not fond of Altaf Bhai but then we all respect the sacrifices and his organizational skills to bring party to this level – where it stands today.

If you are pointing to his (Altaf Hussains) catoon-personality and his funny speeches – you are right but then mate check out the ‘message’ – which is more important.


b)since you claim to be true pakistanis why your politics are so ethnic centered?

Ans: Any day, anytime with all the bull shit attached to my and our views – we would die for this country which our forefathers dreamed off – good, bad or worse ; its our and we have to live with it.

Ethnicity unfortunately plays a huge role in our politics. I know two wrongs does not make one right but unfortunately, keeping in view the other forces – we as a minority had decided to ‘form our own political party’ – thanks to the attitude of Sindis and Punjabis ( we all know the history and not need to discuss it).

Nawaz Sharif party represents Punjab, Zardari’s Party represents Sind and the feudals of this nation, ANP – Phatans – MMA predominently the Religious Phatans – so why can’t MQM represents Urdu Speaking Men and Women?

On being ethnicially centered and I do agree this is in bad taste but unfortunately, if you go back right from the days of Ayub Khan when he sacked Urdu Speaking Civil Servents to the days when Rangers killed and raped our men and women – Sindis and Punjabis taged and gave eachother high-fives for the job well done – and that unfortunately made the commitment and bond stronger. We are a minroty – rich and educated and if we don’t unite we will be eaten up – specially by the Sindis.

c)why in mohajar strongholds other partys have zero success?

If you remember mohajar strongholds of Karachi and Urban Sind – JI won NA seats. The answer to your question is simple – since the inspection of MQM – the majority in Urban Sind voted for MQM, ditching JI. We are a united bunched (Mash’Allah).

d) Why are you holding Karachi hostage?

This is a typical Punjabi Propaganda and I extend my invitation to you to come and check the truth yourself and I’m serious.

Re: # 176

Very pertinent questions indeed. In fact the MQM is the Israel of Pakistan: suffering from prosecution phobia, the so called US mohajirs have become too fascistically ethnic centered forgetting the retribution of their ilk in Bangla Desh.

Re: # 175 IB
I have some honest questions and i will appreciate honest answers.Before iask any questions let me make it clear that i have no personal grudge against mohajars,rather some of my best friends are mohajars.I donot have high opinion about any party or leader in pak.
a)Since you claim that mohajars are more civilized and litterate than rest of the society,why do you have a slimy and creepy Althaf as your leader?
b)since you claim to be true pakistanis why your politics are so ethnic centered?
c)why in mohajar strongholds other partys have zero success?
d)Why are you holding Karachi hostage?

Your attitude towards MQM is exactly the same which the VHP pundits in India towards Pakistan - you ignorant and refuse to accept the ground / physical condition.
a)MQM’s decision to sit on the opposition benches is principled although ‘good politics’ is politics of power and eventually better sense would prevail from the PPP camp and Zardari would personally intervene and meet Altaf Hussain in London to sort differences out.
b) It’s evident now that PPP is divided and the chain of command in PPP has serious loopholes – where Zardari(s) political wisdom is in direct conflict with those of the more local MPA(s) on ground on Sind.
c) There(s) a general consensus among saner political leaders that without MQM(s) support PPP could not control Sind and would be equal ant of dividing Sind into Rural and Urban Sind. A political crisis would be in a process of ‘brewing’ and the end result would be ‘violence’.
d) PPP knows that there alliance with the PML (N) is ‘short-lived’, thus they need to get as much strength in NA to remain in power and who would be better then MQM as a backup plan.
e) The transfer of SHO(s), TPO(s) is a routine policy by any in-coming Interior Minister – the concept is not as mistakenly thought by our optimists on MB that the transfers are in ‘good faith’ but the rate of SHO(s) and TPO(s) goes up – meaning, the SHOs, TPOs will have to negotiate with the current statuesque for better postings on much higher rates. MQM, PML (N), PPP, ANP everyone practices the same routine – it’s more sort of a tradition then anything else. Appointment of Suddle Sahib as IGP, Sind is purely an administrative decision. No need to make it controversial – although MQM was taken into confidence before the summary was send to the establishment division and interior ministry respectively.
f) Mohajirs contributed by opening scores of factories in 1947. I personally know Mohajirs Officers (from top to bottom) who worked without paychecks for good 3-4 initial years of Pakistan.
Infact I would not go down to a Sindi Racist and Lizard Eating HP(s) line; he’s a looser and nothing more. I predict ‘dama dam mast qalandar’ in days to come.
Well izuber rightly stated about me and Zeemax being total jerks – I accept the responsibility and I’m sure Zeemax did that too by stopping.

Re: # 173IB
Whats wrong with eating lizards? its loaded with protiens.

Re: # 172
Once a JaySind Goon always a Lizard Eating Jay Sind Goon!!!!
lies, lies more lies!

#139 Posted by dost_mittar
“I do not know about karachi but if you were to see the namoonas of bhaiya culture that Delhi is teeming with these days, refined is not the first word that would come to your mind.�

This is how most of them are in both Karachi and Hyderabad. Karachi is more UPian and Bihari. In Hyderabad and other parts of Sindh they are mostly from Rajputana. Nothing refined there. The lower classes are exactly what you described. Karachi, Hyderabad and Delhi-similar people, similar atrocious habits. They are the backbone of the MQM.

A political party with grassroots support in the lower classes could have possibly led them to a better political and economic future but these guys ended up in an abyss and are now being led by Altaf the Mafioso.

No doubt, the top 15-20% is cultured. MQM has no support in that class.

#170 Posted by izuber
“After the establishment of Pakistan the govt of Pakistan had no money to pay it's govt. servants which was also contributed by the Mohajirs.�

Mohajir had money in 1947? Most of them were about the clerk level in India. So they really had no money when they came to Pakistan. You guys just continue to create one narrative, full of lies, after another. We just had a parade of liars on TV after they burned five people alive. An act comparable to what the RSS did it Gujarat. Instead of being ashamed and remorseful, every single MQM rep lied with impunity. These guys have no shame. After burning the poor guys, they forcibly took the dead bodies from Edihi and had claimed them their own.

Mohajir have a gift of gab and they use it to lie and make up stories. It must be the greatest character flaw in the Mohajir community and they don’t seem to mind that.

“It is time that UN appoints a commission to investigate all the atrocities inflicted upon the Mohajirs of Pakistan from day one till now.�

Yeah, right atrocities on Mohajir! What do you call burning people alive? Form a commission under Wajih uddin and Saeeduz zaman two respectable Mohjir judges and let them decide. You just can’t be happy that you and your generations got a safe place to grow and make your families prosper. You very well know what your relatives still do in India… barring a few who own podinay kay bagh!

A tribute to Not-So-Sharieff brothers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_C8XYp7KgGM

As evident from the multiple instances of dialog between the low life IB & Zeemax, there are numerous such creatures prevailing in the country which was acquired for the "Muslims".
These two characters exemplify the psyche of a good size population of Pakistan which justifies well the reasons Mohajirs continue to portray themselves as Mohajirs even after 60 years.
It is time that UN appoints a commission to investigate all the atrocities inflicted upon the Mohajirs of Pakistan from day one till now.
The ungrateful ones who derived from the Mohajirs for whatever lays in the treasury of Pakistan in terms of monetary backing gold which justified the printing & issuance of any currency by the State of Pakistan.
After the establishment of Pakistan the govt of Pakistan had no money to pay it's govt. servants which was also contributed by the Mohajirs.
When jobs were being distributed in Pakistan Mohajirs were pushed towards the end of the ques.
Karachi was deprived of it's cosmopolitan society consisting of variety of ethnicities, the local ones and those who have migrated in the name of a homeland for Muslims by the leaders who came in later and divided Karachi into districts and sub-districts, identifying certain areas as Urban and certain as Rural! later effecting policies to promote quotas for Rural domicile individuals over the Urban domicile individuals in connection with education/admission to colleges, govt. jobs and Civil Service.
At the time of founding of Pakistan there were several open minded intellectuals in all ethnicities including Baluchistan, Punjab, NWFP & Sindh as the time went by so did the clear water rolled away and all that is left is the dirt & filth that needs to be dredged out to clean the waterways again.
People who call others names based on their ethnicity should be prepared for their day as it is coming soon, if not in this world they shall face their collection of deeds in the day of judgment while they will have no one to save them from the wrath of Allah SWT even if they don't believe in HIM and should remember that "Allah key laathi mein awaz nahin hoti" every part of your bodies will testify what you say or do.

Re: # 155

With regards to Suddle's appointment, this is what The News writes:

{Sources in the government said Asif Ali Zardari and his team negotiating for a coalition government in Sindh has taken into confidence the leadership of the MQM about the appointment of Dr Suddle in Sindh so that the ongoing parleys between the PPP and MQM do not reach a point of no return.}

{Observers believe that the appointment of Dr Suddle in Sindh is more a political affair than an issue of meritorious governance.}

Dirty jobs are never done at the top, they are delegated to low life inspectors, many who were responsible for those atrocities have already met their fate.

#166/167 Posted by IB,

Haha ... I just love tullas. I once bought an entire thana with Rs 65,000 for the SHO and his men, Rs. 40,000 for the ASP Cantt, and Rs. 1 Lakh to the SP South ... just to get a person who had defrauded me picked up from his house, hung upside down from the roof naked, and a call to me at 6.00 am to come and slap him.

Surprise, I didn't! I could hear his wife and daughters screaming in the background.

Re: # 163 bhai, i'm a 'tulla' all in and out...

- chowk, I had been reading from student days ...
- awam? area? ah, i remember - they are doing just 'fine'

I'll Insh'Allah see you when I see you
(seriously, all this 'bhai' bhai remind me of Sheeshi Kapoors dialouges of 'bhaiiii' extended versions)

I'm off , you take care ...Bhaiiiii!

Re: # 163 bhai, i'm a 'tulla' all in and out...

- chowk, I had been reading from student days ...
- awam? area? ah, i remember - they are doing just 'fine'

I'll Insh'Allah see you when I see you
(seriously, all this 'bhai' bhai remind me of Sheeshi Kapoors dialouges of 'bhaiiii' extended versions)

I'm off , you take care ...Bhaiiiii!

#164 Posted by IB,

None here either. Take care :)

Re: # 162 zeemax bhai thats another communal comment.

Yaar bhai, I have to dash off to work now.. don't wana be late. Until next time - no hard feelings bro!
cheers!

#161 Posted by IB,

Hey was it really your name? I thought youi were kidding. You're really an ASP? What the fk are you doing in this pile of shit called Chowk? You should be taking care of the awam in your area :)

Now let's stop this communal shit. Don't you see IB that Karachi has a serious problem?

Lemme tell you something. Lakson Tobacco (now owned by British American Tobacco) which employed thousands has stopped operations permanently because all its plants all over Sindh were gutted on 27 December - because people mistakenly thought it had a Mohajir owner (Lakhani). Who got hurt? Only the Urdu-speaking of Sindh.

Re: # 160 zeemax,
kaameenay admi... lets start all over again, 'the abuse pls'... :)
comeon thats not fair!

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Re: # 158, Masud Sharif :)
anyhow, I would not go into the b.s debate of past..
I apologize for using such words ; I'm sorry..

#156 Posted by IB,

Abey tilyer ki aulad, who was providing intelligence through lalukhet thanas as to which muttarwa household had a tilyer ka bachha to have its ass handed to him by rangers?

#153 Posted by IB,

Yeah yeah ... the quota for tilyers in essential services just got reduced I guess. Go and cry before nine-zero chutya.

Re: # 155 and Shoaib Suddle was opposed of killing while the real operation was done by Rangers wing 91,73,71.
Chutiyay, newspapers say information nahin aatee....

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Aur haram ke zaat walay,
I pointed towards the new IB Chief - Tariq Harami Lodhi whos only claim of fame is that he's a paindooo while Shah Mehboob Alam was number one on seniority and proffesionalism.

#147 Posted by IB,

You mean guru-mandar till superhighway is your Pakistan with lalukhet as its capital? Huh chutya?

Re: # 150 abay h****i,
Shaoib Suddle worked under bhanch** baber - took orders, as a serving ASP at head quaters ; I personally came across Suddle Sahab and found him to be an honest man. And he is appointed after the approval of MQM although on ground CCPO Karachi is the man incharge on the field.

Since a chutya muttarwa asked - Shaoib Suddle, the deputy to Naseerullah Babar and then DIG Karachi in the glorious kick-muttarwa operation - has today been appointed Inspector General Sindh.

Re: # 148 zeemax you bas*****

Biharis are the most educated lott in Urdu Speaking Circles - what we call topers - and this is comming from a UP-wala. Shias or Sunnis , Urdu Speaking Men and Women are the best of the Pakistani Species.

#139 Posted by dost_mittar,

Dost, as some kind of a rule, in my experience the Shias are the only refined ones amongst the Mohajirs i.e. Rizvis, Zaidis etc., but a lot more clannish than the average bhayyas.

The biharis I guess would be the garbage amongst the lot, with everyone else ranging somewhere in the middle.

Another Injustic to 'Ahal-e-Zuban' a B-grade Punjabi Tariq Lodhi is made IB chief , ignoring Shah Mehboob Alam whos a proffesional in his own regard.

I wish Passar-e-Zameen - to rot in what they call Pakistan for the rest of there lifes, to us Urdus, Karachi and Urban Sind is Pakistan and nothing more.

#138 Posted by hamidm2,

I think 58-2(b) will go for sure, and PPP will try to retain musharraf as a toothless president just for this man's ego. But in that case they will have to find another coalition partner/s in place of PML-N. I don't know how far that is possible and whether PPP in the center can survive with a hostile Punjab.

Re: # 144

bubba mian,

..... unfortunately, if urstruly has his way i will be first in line to be guillotined or beheaded ...

Re: # 82 Posted by hamidm2 on April 12, 2008 3:59:38 am

Hamid mian,

Finally, it seems that you and urstruly are converging on a similar note

[.. i think as a nation we are ready for public guillotines, hangings, beheadigs and ritual stonings ........ i can feel the rush ! ]

akcheema:

Cheemaji,
Toorhi tand saamb haarhi vech watt ke
Lambrhaan ‘te shaahaan da hisaab katt ke
Kachhe maar vanjhli anand chhaa gya
Maarda damaame jatt mele aa gya

twanooN vi visaakhi di chokhi vadhayee!

Re: # 139; DM ji

Punjabi bashing is our national sport; done more by Punjabis themselves!

When one is comfortable in one's skin, these things become increasingly immaterial, I reckon.

btw Vaisaakhi mubarak!

Re: # 113; hamidm sahib [.... to give you another example: what are the first few questions a punjabi asks you ?
" thuwadee zaat ki ai ?"
" ai koti thuwadee apne ai ?"
.... once he has determined whether you are a arain or a lowly jaat]

don't even think about getting me started on 'arains' hamidm sahib!!!! they should be left with their 'ganday di fasal' and to enjoy themselves!

just look at Amir-ul-momineen (Zia) and Mian Tufail combo and you'd know what I mean!

'lowly jaat', who are you calling a lowly jaat eh!! There is no need to get personal hamidm sahib.

and I thought you were an educated man!!

Har cheez chorro, The real question is will khassilullah betichod burbur (presumably the one who will drive the bus service to the arabian sea) descend from the sky with tampax's jihadi thokoo's and the shireen jinnah homeboys in a toyota 4*4? So many questions not many answers...

hamidm#112:

As I said before, in that case, chowk is not a representative sample. Here, the ahl-e-zubaan can give a run for his atthianee to any gama-majha from gawalmandi.

I might agree with you re. refined culture if you were talking about Lukhnow or Allahabad but not the entire bhaiya land. I do not know about karachi but if you were to see the namoonas of bhaiya culture that Delhi is teeming with these days, refined is not the first word that would come to your mind.