In the Name of Allah, the Most Merciful

Re: # 993
I see that I might be able to get a brother out of the blind well of Hadith literature.

Here we go then...

Re: # 991
Only the doctor of torn-apart-Ronto can answer you once he has consulted with the high priestess who wrote this piece.

Too bad you know only what RAW teaches you.

Go reform your own country.

Re: # 1003

viqarm,

Re:if a sicko was sleeping naked with his nieces (of any age),)

My understanding is that the pervert in question was not claiming to be a prophet from God for the entire mankind.

Regards.

The US Elite

Re: # 998 Ajeya,
Yes, if a sicko was sleeping naked with his nieces (of any age), or screwing his already eight-month pregnant wife while his father was breathing his last, I would defintely
consider him a lecher and a pervert.

Re: # 992
Echoboom....

It is thus important to note here that Muhammad’s twenty five prime youth years were spent in purely monogamous relationship with a lady 15 years his senior.

Ans: This proves nothing. Mo was kind of rag-picker. Neither he had inherited anything from parental side, neither he was able to establish himself in society. Whatever wealth and status he was enjoying; courtsey to his first wife. Had he any option rather than being subsurvient to the lady and stay with her?

Age of Ayesha...
So, there are basic contradiction within Islamic literature about age of Ayesha. As per my perception, this 6+9 (no offense) information was a narrative of herself (Ayesha) and was later written by somebody. This is documented in clear terms (6 and 9) in more than one books.
Is this true?
The narrative even contains "...I was small girl and was not knowing the meaning of marriage at that time". The person, who had written this, had he tried to spoil the image of Muhammed?

Regarding social taboo...
When Muhammed was 54 (time of marriage to Ayesha. I think there is no confusion about the age of Muhammed at the time of this marriage), he was already the military leader and ruler. He was not spiritual guide alone...He even ( like kings and monarchs) created a seal declaring him the same ( ruler).Who will revolt against such a person for the marriage of minor? The father of the girl donated her to come close to power. Why should other's bother about it?

Thousand interacts. Wow!

they are all MUNAFIQS saab all these pretend Muslims saab.

we will get them when we have Islami Nizam in our country saab

Hmmm....

All the Islamic warriors have fled with their tails between their legs....

Oh well....

: )

#996 Urstruly

[This is just super. Now a person's control over his anger (if any) is being taken as a moral shortcoming of that person. just super. ]

Whether you have a moral shortcoming or not, you are having a hard time answering my question.

Don't divert the issue. Just answer my question.

Urstruly (#994),

Whether mistake was made by compilers, or narrators, or Bibi Ayesha (ra) herself … is irrelevant. Point remains that a mistake was made.

You admit that Bibi Ayesha (ra) “may not have been able to assess her own age accurately”. This my friend, is called an error!

You may cite possible reasons for this error, but an error remains an error! So the problem lies with your comprehension. It is called "denial".

Re: # 990

This is just super. Now a person's control over his anger (if any) is being taken as a moral shortcoming of that person. just super.

#992 echoboom

[An informative write-up to clear up the matter..once for all.]

echo,

You'll begin to clear the matter ONLY WHEN you answer the following question:

IF (for argument's sake) Mohammad had proposed marriage to Ayesha when she was 6 years old, would THAT make him a pedophile?

Re: # 993

No, I am not agreeing with "that recorded ahadith may contain erroneous information!". Do you have a problem with reading comprehension? What I said was " I have no doubt in mind that the hadith quoting Ayesha are absolutely accurate, but I think our mother may not have been able to assess her own age accurately. " and then next pragraph explains the reson for that, that it may not be dilberate or erroneous.

Urstruly (#980),

Essentially you are agreeing that recorded ahadith may contain erroneous information!

If ahadith were as authenticated as "humanly possible”, it means they may still be incorrect or invalid! I hope you are not suggesting that human effort is perfect!

BTW, if Ayesha (ra) was not old enough to know her age, do you think she was old enough to be married?

The only outstanding issue now is the length of year. And it takes us back to your dilemma: applying recorded ahadith, verbatim, without knowing their authenticity, context, meaning, etc.

First you were having difficulty with the meaning of "last". Now it seems that "year" too is a difficult concept to grasp! The more you try, more you undermine your own case. I hope you see the trend ... which is the crux of the matter on issue of ahadith.

Now apply what you have learnt here to the remaining ahadith … those about killing adulterers, blasphemers, and apostates. I hope Salim and Tahir can help you here ...

An informative write-up to clear up the matter..once for all.

Was Ayesha really 6 years old when she married Muhammad?

A few comments about Muhammad’s marriages are in order. Muhammad married his first wife, Khadijah, several years before his announcement as a prophet of Islam. Khadijah was a reasonably well-to-do woman of Makkah and was 15 years his senior. Muhammad was 25 and Khadijah was 40 at the time of their marriage. This loving and caring monogamous relationship continued for 25 years until her death.

Muhammad, now over 50 years of age, married a relatively aged woman by the name of Saudah. It is thus important to note here that Muhammad’s twenty five prime youth years were spent in purely monogamous relationship with a lady 15 years his senior. This speaks volumes about this man’s piety and loyalty in spousal matters as well as about the fact that his later marriages could not have been motivated by any human wild sexual desires.

In 620-621 A.D, he and his devout companions migrated from Makkah to Medina. Then a couple of years later, he married Ayesha, a daughter of his closest companion, Abu Bakr, in the 3rd Hijrah (Islamic calendar--623-24 A.D). This information coming from diverse historical and Hadith sources is widely agreed upon and therefore can be, a priori, considered authentic. Based on this information, and a host of other related bits and pieces detailed below, it can be shown that Ayesha could have been at least 16-19 of age at the time of her marriage with Muhammad (pbuh). The following is the detail of the analysis of these historical and Hadith accounts.

1. Several books of Hadith (Al-Bukhari and Al-Muslim, Abu Dawood, among others) and Islamic history (Tabari, among others) report that Ayesha was married to the Prophet at 6 but her marriage was not consummated until she was 9. Although, this information is widely quoted and found in many Hadith and history books, it must be noted that most of this information has come from a single person, Hisham bin Urwah, who is the last narrator of this Hadith Isnaad (chain of narration) on the authority of his father. Thus, this Hadith is primarily a single Hadith. Some other narratives mention the same Hadith but their narration has been found weak and unacceptable. In general, a Hadith has more credibility if it is narrated by more people independently from diverse chains of narrators. In this case, there is basically only one source.

2. Despite the abundance of information available during the 71 years that Hisham bin Urwah lived and taught in Medina, it is rather odd that that no one else—not even his famous pupil Malik ibn Anas---reported Ayesha’s age from Hisham in Medina. Furthermore, all the narrators of this Hadith were Iraqis. Hisham is reported to have moved to Iraq in his later years. An extensive list of biographical sketches of all narrators including these Iraqis is available in some books.

3. Yaqub ibn Shaibah is reported to have said, “narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq". Malik ibn Anas (d. 795), a student of Hisham in fact discredited all narratives of Hisham that were reported through people of Iraq.

(Tehzibu'l-tehzib, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh), vol 11, pg 48 - 51).

4. It is reported that Hisham bin Urwah’s memory suffered in his later years to the extent that some of the traditions reported from Hisham bin Urwah could not be trusted for authenticity.

(Mizanu'l-ai`tidal, by Al-Zahbi , Arabic, a book on the life sketches of the narrators of the Hadith, Al-Maktabatu'l-athriyyah, Sheikhupura, Pakistan, Vol 4, pg 301).

5. Even though Ayesha is reported to have been born about eight years before Hijrah (around 614 A.D.), one can find another narrative in Bukhari (kitabu'l-tafseer) whereby Ayesha is reported to have said that she was a ‘young girl’ at the time of revelation of the 54th chapter of the Qur'an which came 9 years before Hijrah (around 612 A.D). Thus, according to this tradition, Ayesha was a young girl (Jariyah—as she calls herself and not an infant in which case she would be sibyah). Additionally, this narrative stands in direct contrast to the one reported on Ayesha’s age by Hisham bin Urwah. This puts Ayesha’s age significantly higher than 9 as reported by Hisham bin Urwah—possibly 15 or even higher. Obviously, if this narrative is held to be true, it is in clear
contradiction with the narratives reported by Hisham
ibn Urwah. There is no compelling reason as to why this tradition should be considered less accurate vis-à-vis Hisham’s narrative).

(Sahih Bukhari, kitabu'l-tafsir, Arabic, Bab Qaulihi Bal al-sa`atu Maw`iduhum wa'l-sa`atu adha' wa amarr).

6. According to many narratives, Ayesha participated in the battles of Badr and Uhud. No one older than 15 was allowed to accompany the Prophet’s army in the battle of Uhud. This applied across the board to all participants, men and women alike. The battle of Uhud took place around the 2nd Hijrah, a time line close to her marriage with the Prophet. Obviously, she was at least older than 15 at that time.

7. A narrative regarding Ayesha's participation in the battle of `Uhud is given in Bukhari, (Kitabu'l-jihad wa'l-siyar, Arabic, Bab Ghazwi'l-nisa' wa qitalihinna ma`a'lrijal; that all boys under 15 were sent back is given in Bukhari, Kitabu'l-maghazi, Bab ghazwati'l-khandaq wa hiya'l-ahza'b, Arabic).

8. Most historians have consensus on the age of one of the oldest female companions of the Prophet, namely, Asma, the elder sister of Ayesha that was ten years older than Ayesha. It is also reported in Taqri'bu'l-tehzi'b as well as Al-bidayah wa'l-nihayah that Asma died in 73 Hijrah when she was 100 years old. Clearly, if Asma was 27 or 28 years old at the time of Hijrah, Ayesha was 17 at the time of Hijrah and 19 at the time of consummation of her marriage with Muhammad.

(For Asma being 10 years older than Ayesha, see A`la'ma'l-nubala', Al-Zahabi, Vol 2, Pg 289, Arabic, Mu'assasatu'l-risalah, Beirut, 1992. Ibn Kathir confirms this fact, [Asma] was elder to her sister [Ayesha] by ten years" (Al-Bidayah wa'l-nihayah, Ibn Kathir, Vol 8, Pg 371, Arabic, Dar al-fikr al-`arabi, Al-jizah, 1933). For Asma being 100 years old, see Al-Bidayah wa'l-nihayah, Ibn Kathir, Vol 8, Pg 372, Arabic, Dar al-fikr al-`arabi, Al-jizah, 1933). Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani also has the same information: "She [Asma (ra)] lived a hundred years and died in 73 or 74 AH." Taqribu'l-tehzib, Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani, Pg 654, Arabic, Bab fi'l-nisa', al-harfu'l-alif, Lucknow).

9. Tabari informs in his treatise on Islamic history that Abu Bakr had four children and all four were born during the pre Islamic period. The pre-Islamic period ended in 610 A.D, a fact that makes Ayesha to be at least 14 years of age at the time of her marriage around 613-624 A.D.

Tarikhu'l-umam wa'l-mamlu'k, Al-Tabari, Vol 4, Pg 50, Arabic, Dara'l-fikr, Beirut, 1979).

10. Ibn Hisham, the historian, reports that Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam quite some time before `Umar ibn al-Khattab which only means that Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam close to the time of first revelation (around 610 A.D). This means she must have been at least a young girl at that time. Assuming she was barely 6 or 7 at that time this information puts the age of Ayesha at 20 or more at the time of her marriage with Muhammad (623-624 A.D.), (Al-Sirah al-Nabawiyyah, Ibn Hisham, vol 1, Pg 227 – 234 and 295, Arabic, Maktabah al-Riyadh al-hadithah, Al-Riyadh).

11. Tabari reports that before migrating to Habashah, Abu Bakr planned to hand over his daughter, Ayesha to Mut’am’s son to whom she was engaged. But fearing persecution by the Quraish, Mut’am refused and his son divorced Ayesha. The migration to Habashah happened 8 years before Hijra. Obviously, at the time she was ready to take on responsibilities as a wife (possibly 9 or 10 years of age). If she married Muhammad in the 2nd Hijrah (623-624 A.D), she could not be less than 19 years of age (a secondary reference for this argument is: Tehqiq e umar e Siddiqah e Ka'inat, Habib ur Rahman Kandhalwi, Urdu, Pg 38, Anjuman Uswa e hasanah, Karachi, Pakistan).

12. A famous Sunni imam, Ahmad ibn Hanbal, reports in His Musnad, that after the death of Khadijah, Khaulah came to the Prophet (pbuh) and advised him to marry again. She had two propositions for the Prophet: Either Muhammad could marry a virgin (bikr), or he could go for woman who had already been married (thayyib)". Khaulah named Ayesha for a virgin (bikr). It is common knowledge that the term bikr in the Arabic language refers to a well formed lady and not to a 9 year old, playful, immature lass. If she were nine, the word used by Khaulah would have been jariyah and not bikr.

(Musnad, Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Vol 6, Pg 210, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-`arabi, Beirut).

13. Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani has reported that Fatimah, Muhammad’s daughter, was five years older than Ayesha and that Fatimah was born when the Prophet was 35 years old. Thus, Ayesha, according to Ibn Hajar, was born when Muhammad was 40 and consummated her marriage when he was 54 or 55. That makes Aysha at least 15-16 years of age.

(Al-isabah fi tamyizi'l-sahabah, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, Vol 4, Pg 377, Arabic, Maktabatu'l-Riyadh al-haditha, al-Riyadh,1978)

Finally, it must be pointed out that Ayesha’s age at the time of her marriage has never been an issue. If it were, his enemies must have picked up on this issue as they did to him on some other issues. Also, the reader must note that none of these Hadith reports concerning Ayesha’s controversial age of marriage with the Prophet goes back to the Prophet himself. In other words, it is not the Prophet himself who said Ayesha was 6 or 9. These reports came from a single individual and the Iraqis reported from him when he grew old and his memory started failing.


http://www.quranicteachings.co.uk

#988 Urstruly

Or are you saying that there is no moral dilemma for Muslims if Muhammad at 53 years of age wanted to have sex with a 6 year-old?