In the Name of Allah, the Most Merciful

Wow!! Azra,

More than 1000 interacts; are people still sure there was nothing to talk about here?!

Good luck in the future too

Re: # 1019
Tahir...
Ans: Time is still available... just beg pardon to your Allah. He may offer 72 virgins again. There are severe food scarcity in asia. Heaven will be better place, unless and until rice and wheat price goes down...

Re: # 1003
Viqarm...
What a logic!!! A old man thinking of sex with a minor is not perversion!!!!!
Every 20/25 years you get a generation. So, a 54 year old was almost 2 generations older from the girl...and this is not perversion....

Re: # 1016

Tahir, did you just call me your God a moron?

No virgins for you now!

You will burn in hell for eternity

Re: # 1016

Tahir you have the 72 virgins no problem!

What about all the other Ayahs?

and there is just so much more!

Re: # 1014
Die ganze Sie bilden mich Lachen!

Re: # 1015
Moron, here's the REAL text:

81: 15
BUT NAY! I call to witness the revolving stars, (16) the planets that run their course and set, (17) and the night as it darkly falls, (18) and the morn as it softly breathes: (19) behold, this [divine writ] is indeed the [inspired] word of a noble apostle,(20) with strength endowed, secure with Him who in almightiness is enthroned6 (21) [the word] of one to be heeded, and worthy of trust!

5 By "calling to witness" certain natural phenomena which are familiar to man because of their permanent recurrence, attention is drawn to the fact that what we call "laws of nature" are but the observable elements of God's plan of creation - a plan in which His revelations (referred to in this and the subsequent verses) play a decisive role: and so, by implication, the divine writ granted to Muhammad is as intrinsically "natural" as any other phenomenon, concrete or abstract, in the realm of God's creation.

PERISH IN YOUR RAGE now (all of you idolators)...

And they say bad things about my book. It took me so long to write it too. The ungratefuls.

This is what someone wrote

It has become common knowledge that the Qur'an has contradictions or discrepancies which is not denied by Qur'an in the verse 4:82

4:82 Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy."

Were the Qur'an free from any discrepancy, the verse would have said "... they would surely have found therein no discrepancy", not "much discrepancy".

There are long lists of errors and contradictions in the Qur'an, here I just want to discuss a contradiction around verse 33:50 which may not so obvious.

First, we know that the prophet is the best example for muslims and they must follow the prophet's conducts.

33:21 Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.

But verse 33:50 says that not every conduct of the holy prophet can be followed by the muslims.

33:50 O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee; and daughters of thy paternal uncles and aunts, and daughters of thy maternal uncles and aunts, who migrated (from Makka) with thee; and any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her;- this only for thee, and not for the Believers (at large) ; We know what We have appointed for them as to their wives and the captives whom their right hands possess;- in order that there should be no difficulty for thee. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

This is a contradiction because verse 33:21 tells the muslims to follow the behavior of the prophet, but verse 33:50 says there are a few things which the muslims are not allowed to do what the prophet did.

The reason for forbiding the muslims to follow their holy prophet conduct in verse 33:50 actually is obvious if we spend some time to think, what the holy prophet did (or was allowed) is not so beautiful to be followed, therefore, the muslims are not supposed to do it. It must be a sinfull act for the believers. So actually the prophet did some sinful act and he is not supposed to be the role model.

Which among the lawful items in 33:50 is only for the prophets and not for the believers? It is the right to "wed" any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the prophet, because the other items are allowed for the muslims too. (I put the word "wed" between quotes for the reason below).

But wait, isn't that a muslim can also marry a woman who wants to be his wife as long as the woman is halal to be his wife? All he must do is to pay the dowry which can be as little as memorizing a few verses, get a witness and does the ijab qabul ceremony where the woman says she gives herself to the man and the man says he accepts the woman as his wife.

So what Allah gives the prophet in 33:50 to be solely for the prophet is not the same as a marriage ritual done by the believers. It must have the meaning that the prophet can copulate right away with the woman who wants to dedicate herself to the prophet. No need for dowry, witness or ijab qabul statements.

In another word, the prophet can do adultery with a woman who is not his wife or his right hand. This holy prophet can just come to a woman's bed room without permission and the woman had better known the consequences if she doesn't dedicate herself to prophet because that means disobeying Allah and disobeying the prophet. Allah himself has made a point that it would place the woman at the wrong path.

33:36 It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.

The case of the prophet marrying his cousin Zainab bint Jahsh may show us how the prophet exercised his special right.

(So, when Zayd had completed his aim with her, We gave her to you in marriage,) meaning, `when her marriage to Zayd was over and he had separated from her, We married her to you,' and the One Who was her Wali (guardian) in this marriage was Allah Himself, in the sense that He revealed to the Prophet that he should go in unto her without any Wali, contractual agreement, dowery or witnesses among mankind. Imam Ahmad recorded that Thabit said that Anas, may Allah be pleased with him, said: "When Zaynab's `Iddah finished, may Allah be pleased with her, the Messenger of Allah said to Zayd bin Harithah,

(Go to her and tell her about me (that I want to marry her).) So, he went to her and found her kneading dough. He (Zayd) said, `When I saw her I felt such respect for her that I could not even look at her and tell her what the Messenger of Allah had said, so I turned my back to her and stepped aside, and said, `O Zaynab! Rejoice, for the Messenger of Allah has sent me to propose marriage to you on his behalf.' She said, `I will not do anything until I pray to my Lord, may He be glorified.' So she went to the place where she usually prayed. Then Qur'an was revealed and the Messenger of Allah came and entered without permission. (Source: Tafsir Ibn Kathir)

The prophet had a crush on Zainab, so Zaid, Zainab's husband could not do anything but divorced her. After Zainab's iddah period had finished, the prophet proposed Zainab right away without any delay. But Zainab wanted to think about it and she went to her private place to pray. We know it is her private place because from the tafsir, it is implied that people needed her permission to enter, her bed room probably.

But the prophet could no longer hold his lust because he had been waiting for the iddah period which was 3 months, so he entered Zainab's private place without permission. It was not told what had happened in Zainab's private place, but we can make a good guess what will happen if a horny man comes to a woman's sleeping room. We can certainly say "only God knows" like what the bearded muslims say, but in this case, the prophet also knew what he was doing, right?

Not with holding his lust and being a sex maniac actually is a holy teaching from the prophet himself as shown in the hadits
Muslim Book 008, Number 3241:
Jabir b. 'Abdullah reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) saw a woman; and the rest of the hadith was narrated but (with this exception) that he said he came to his wife Zainab, who was tanning a (piece of) leather, and he made no mention of:" She retires in the shape of satan."

This case will force us to think that the Qur'an is nothing more than the word of the holy prophet himself, not of Allah. Surprisingly, the Qur'an does indeed say that it is the word of the prophet himself.

81:19 Verily this is the word of a most honourable Messenger,

We shouldn't deny this honourable ayah from the honourable messenger, should we?

goatbrain tahir lives in europe, doesn't he?

60-70 percent of inmates in French jails are Muslims

Daily Times Monitor

LAHORE: Around 60 to 70 percent of all inmates in the French prison system are Muslims despite them making up only 12 percent of the country’s total population, according to a report released by the Washington Post on Tuesday.

“The high percentage of Muslims in prisons is a direct consequence of the failure of the integration of minorities in France,” the report quotes Moussa Khedimellah, a sociologist who has spent several years conducting research on Muslims in the French penal system, as saying.

However, French prison officials blame the high numbers on the poverty of people who have moved to France from North African and other Islamic countries in recent decades.

“Many immigrants arrive in France in difficult financial situations, which make delinquency more frequent,” said Jeanne Sautière, director of integration and religious groups for the French prison system. “The most important thing is to say there is no correlation between Islam and delinquency.”

But Muslim leaders, sociologists and human rights activists argue that more than in most other European countries, government social policies in France have served to isolate Muslims in impoverished suburbs that have high unemployment, inferior schools and substandard housing. This has helped create a generation of French-born children with little hope of social advancement and even less respect for French authority, the report states.

In Britain, 11 percent of prisoners are Muslim in contrast to about three percent of all inhabitants, according to the Justice Ministry.

Research by the Open Society Institute, an advocacy organisation, shows that in the Netherlands 20 percent of adult prisoners and 26 percent of all juvenile offenders are Muslim; the country is about 5.5 percent Muslim.

In Belgium, Muslims from Morocco and Turkey make up at least 16 percent of the prison population, compared with 2 percent of the general populace, the research found.

#1011 Posted by masanamuthu on April 30, 2008 4:59:29 am

maulana urstruly has already given us a scientific explanation for mo raping ayesha...yup...he said it's been scientifically proven that older men are attracted to young women so, essentially, it was ok for mo to rape ayesha because..it's scientific...

ATTENTION:

Najma-goes-to-torn-apart-Ronto died yesterday uttering: In the Name of Allah, the Most Merciful.

Let's all pray for the poor soul and end this interact right here...

So what's the conclusion?.

Are people disclaiming the hadiths about Ayesha's age?. That will be a good start. :-)

Re: # 1002
Summen weg

Re: # 995

Buzz off; I'll say it German now: Summen weg!

Re: # 994
Brother,

Hundreds of pages of my own notes tell me a great deal about the translational 'angles' of translators. Mind-boggling!

I hate to break your heart but the 'correct' books cannot ever be placed above the Qur'an which is free from all inner inconsistency.

I'v said it before, the same Hadith book page sometimes gives opposing versions about the same topic. And the companions own wishes cannot be termed as 'sunnah'.

Many of the 'Israelia' traditions have done irrepairable harm to Islam. After they enemies of revealed religion did it to the Torah and the Injeel, what was left standing was the Qur'an.

I refuse to be a one-legged Muslim.

"but I think our mother may not have been able to assess her own age accurately."

This opinion gives more ammunition to the enemies! It means she suffered (God forbid) from amnesia or poor memory retention. In which case, her narrations wind up againn under the microscope. And how did intimate bedroom details wind up as authentic Hadith?

The deeper one probes, the clearer the picture becomes.

Peace & stay well.

Re: # 1004

arre baba ... agar gora ban-nay ka itna hi KHabt thaa, to choona karvaa laytay. yeh amrikan elite ki cHHaap lagvaanay ki kya zuroorat thi?

About your objection, am I to understand that if only Muhammad(SAW) had not claimed prophethood, that all you wannabe goras would have had him sanctified a Mahaatma at least ...?

Re: # 993
I see that I might be able to get a brother out of the blind well of Hadith literature.

Here we go then...

Re: # 991
Only the doctor of torn-apart-Ronto can answer you once he has consulted with the high priestess who wrote this piece.

Too bad you know only what RAW teaches you.

Go reform your own country.

Re: # 1003

viqarm,

Re:if a sicko was sleeping naked with his nieces (of any age),)

My understanding is that the pervert in question was not claiming to be a prophet from God for the entire mankind.

Regards.

The US Elite

Re: # 998 Ajeya,
Yes, if a sicko was sleeping naked with his nieces (of any age), or screwing his already eight-month pregnant wife while his father was breathing his last, I would defintely
consider him a lecher and a pervert.

Re: # 992
Echoboom....

It is thus important to note here that Muhammad’s twenty five prime youth years were spent in purely monogamous relationship with a lady 15 years his senior.

Ans: This proves nothing. Mo was kind of rag-picker. Neither he had inherited anything from parental side, neither he was able to establish himself in society. Whatever wealth and status he was enjoying; courtsey to his first wife. Had he any option rather than being subsurvient to the lady and stay with her?

Age of Ayesha...
So, there are basic contradiction within Islamic literature about age of Ayesha. As per my perception, this 6+9 (no offense) information was a narrative of herself (Ayesha) and was later written by somebody. This is documented in clear terms (6 and 9) in more than one books.
Is this true?
The narrative even contains "...I was small girl and was not knowing the meaning of marriage at that time". The person, who had written this, had he tried to spoil the image of Muhammed?

Regarding social taboo...
When Muhammed was 54 (time of marriage to Ayesha. I think there is no confusion about the age of Muhammed at the time of this marriage), he was already the military leader and ruler. He was not spiritual guide alone...He even ( like kings and monarchs) created a seal declaring him the same ( ruler).Who will revolt against such a person for the marriage of minor? The father of the girl donated her to come close to power. Why should other's bother about it?

Thousand interacts. Wow!

they are all MUNAFIQS saab all these pretend Muslims saab.

we will get them when we have Islami Nizam in our country saab

Hmmm....

All the Islamic warriors have fled with their tails between their legs....

Oh well....

: )

#996 Urstruly

[This is just super. Now a person's control over his anger (if any) is being taken as a moral shortcoming of that person. just super. ]

Whether you have a moral shortcoming or not, you are having a hard time answering my question.

Don't divert the issue. Just answer my question.

Urstruly (#994),

Whether mistake was made by compilers, or narrators, or Bibi Ayesha (ra) herself … is irrelevant. Point remains that a mistake was made.

You admit that Bibi Ayesha (ra) “may not have been able to assess her own age accurately”. This my friend, is called an error!

You may cite possible reasons for this error, but an error remains an error! So the problem lies with your comprehension. It is called "denial".

Re: # 990

This is just super. Now a person's control over his anger (if any) is being taken as a moral shortcoming of that person. just super.

#992 echoboom

[An informative write-up to clear up the matter..once for all.]

echo,

You'll begin to clear the matter ONLY WHEN you answer the following question:

IF (for argument's sake) Mohammad had proposed marriage to Ayesha when she was 6 years old, would THAT make him a pedophile?

Re: # 993

No, I am not agreeing with "that recorded ahadith may contain erroneous information!". Do you have a problem with reading comprehension? What I said was " I have no doubt in mind that the hadith quoting Ayesha are absolutely accurate, but I think our mother may not have been able to assess her own age accurately. " and then next pragraph explains the reson for that, that it may not be dilberate or erroneous.

Urstruly (#980),

Essentially you are agreeing that recorded ahadith may contain erroneous information!

If ahadith were as authenticated as "humanly possible”, it means they may still be incorrect or invalid! I hope you are not suggesting that human effort is perfect!

BTW, if Ayesha (ra) was not old enough to know her age, do you think she was old enough to be married?

The only outstanding issue now is the length of year. And it takes us back to your dilemma: applying recorded ahadith, verbatim, without knowing their authenticity, context, meaning, etc.

First you were having difficulty with the meaning of "last". Now it seems that "year" too is a difficult concept to grasp! The more you try, more you undermine your own case. I hope you see the trend ... which is the crux of the matter on issue of ahadith.

Now apply what you have learnt here to the remaining ahadith … those about killing adulterers, blasphemers, and apostates. I hope Salim and Tahir can help you here ...

An informative write-up to clear up the matter..once for all.

Was Ayesha really 6 years old when she married Muhammad?

A few comments about Muhammad’s marriages are in order. Muhammad married his first wife, Khadijah, several years before his announcement as a prophet of Islam. Khadijah was a reasonably well-to-do woman of Makkah and was 15 years his senior. Muhammad was 25 and Khadijah was 40 at the time of their marriage. This loving and caring monogamous relationship continued for 25 years until her death.

Muhammad, now over 50 years of age, married a relatively aged woman by the name of Saudah. It is thus important to note here that Muhammad’s twenty five prime youth years were spent in purely monogamous relationship with a lady 15 years his senior. This speaks volumes about this man’s piety and loyalty in spousal matters as well as about the fact that his later marriages could not have been motivated by any human wild sexual desires.

In 620-621 A.D, he and his devout companions migrated from Makkah to Medina. Then a couple of years later, he married Ayesha, a daughter of his closest companion, Abu Bakr, in the 3rd Hijrah (Islamic calendar--623-24 A.D). This information coming from diverse historical and Hadith sources is widely agreed upon and therefore can be, a priori, considered authentic. Based on this information, and a host of other related bits and pieces detailed below, it can be shown that Ayesha could have been at least 16-19 of age at the time of her marriage with Muhammad (pbuh). The following is the detail of the analysis of these historical and Hadith accounts.

1. Several books of Hadith (Al-Bukhari and Al-Muslim, Abu Dawood, among others) and Islamic history (Tabari, among others) report that Ayesha was married to the Prophet at 6 but her marriage was not consummated until she was 9. Although, this information is widely quoted and found in many Hadith and history books, it must be noted that most of this information has come from a single person, Hisham bin Urwah, who is the last narrator of this Hadith Isnaad (chain of narration) on the authority of his father. Thus, this Hadith is primarily a single Hadith. Some other narratives mention the same Hadith but their narration has been found weak and unacceptable. In general, a Hadith has more credibility if it is narrated by more people independently from diverse chains of narrators. In this case, there is basically only one source.

2. Despite the abundance of information available during the 71 years that Hisham bin Urwah lived and taught in Medina, it is rather odd that that no one else—not even his famous pupil Malik ibn Anas---reported Ayesha’s age from Hisham in Medina. Furthermore, all the narrators of this Hadith were Iraqis. Hisham is reported to have moved to Iraq in his later years. An extensive list of biographical sketches of all narrators including these Iraqis is available in some books.

3. Yaqub ibn Shaibah is reported to have said, “narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq". Malik ibn Anas (d. 795), a student of Hisham in fact discredited all narratives of Hisham that were reported through people of Iraq.

(Tehzibu'l-tehzib, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh), vol 11, pg 48 - 51).

4. It is reported that Hisham bin Urwah’s memory suffered in his later years to the extent that some of the traditions reported from Hisham bin Urwah could not be trusted for authenticity.

(Mizanu'l-ai`tidal, by Al-Zahbi , Arabic, a book on the life sketches of the narrators of the Hadith, Al-Maktabatu'l-athriyyah, Sheikhupura, Pakistan, Vol 4, pg 301).

5. Even though Ayesha is reported to have been born about eight years before Hijrah (around 614 A.D.), one can find another narrative in Bukhari (kitabu'l-tafseer) whereby Ayesha is reported to have said that she was a ‘young girl’ at the time of revelation of the 54th chapter of the Qur'an which came 9 years before Hijrah (around 612 A.D). Thus, according to this tradition, Ayesha was a young girl (Jariyah—as she calls herself and not an infant in which case she would be sibyah). Additionally, this narrative stands in direct contrast to the one reported on Ayesha’s age by Hisham bin Urwah. This puts Ayesha’s age significantly higher than 9 as reported by Hisham bin Urwah—possibly 15 or even higher. Obviously, if this narrative is held to be true, it is in clear
contradiction with the narratives reported by Hisham
ibn Urwah. There is no compelling reason as to why this tradition should be considered less accurate vis-à-vis Hisham’s narrative).

(Sahih Bukhari, kitabu'l-tafsir, Arabic, Bab Qaulihi Bal al-sa`atu Maw`iduhum wa'l-sa`atu adha' wa amarr).

6. According to many narratives, Ayesha participated in the battles of Badr and Uhud. No one older than 15 was allowed to accompany the Prophet’s army in the battle of Uhud. This applied across the board to all participants, men and women alike. The battle of Uhud took place around the 2nd Hijrah, a time line close to her marriage with the Prophet. Obviously, she was at least older than 15 at that time.

7. A narrative regarding Ayesha's participation in the battle of `Uhud is given in Bukhari, (Kitabu'l-jihad wa'l-siyar, Arabic, Bab Ghazwi'l-nisa' wa qitalihinna ma`a'lrijal; that all boys under 15 were sent back is given in Bukhari, Kitabu'l-maghazi, Bab ghazwati'l-khandaq wa hiya'l-ahza'b, Arabic).

8. Most historians have consensus on the age of one of the oldest female companions of the Prophet, namely, Asma, the elder sister of Ayesha that was ten years older than Ayesha. It is also reported in Taqri'bu'l-tehzi'b as well as Al-bidayah wa'l-nihayah that Asma died in 73 Hijrah when she was 100 years old. Clearly, if Asma was 27 or 28 years old at the time of Hijrah, Ayesha was 17 at the time of Hijrah and 19 at the time of consummation of her marriage with Muhammad.

(For Asma being 10 years older than Ayesha, see A`la'ma'l-nubala', Al-Zahabi, Vol 2, Pg 289, Arabic, Mu'assasatu'l-risalah, Beirut, 1992. Ibn Kathir confirms this fact, [Asma] was elder to her sister [Ayesha] by ten years" (Al-Bidayah wa'l-nihayah, Ibn Kathir, Vol 8, Pg 371, Arabic, Dar al-fikr al-`arabi, Al-jizah, 1933). For Asma being 100 years old, see Al-Bidayah wa'l-nihayah, Ibn Kathir, Vol 8, Pg 372, Arabic, Dar al-fikr al-`arabi, Al-jizah, 1933). Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani also has the same information: "She [Asma (ra)] lived a hundred years and died in 73 or 74 AH." Taqribu'l-tehzib, Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani, Pg 654, Arabic, Bab fi'l-nisa', al-harfu'l-alif, Lucknow).

9. Tabari informs in his treatise on Islamic history that Abu Bakr had four children and all four were born during the pre Islamic period. The pre-Islamic period ended in 610 A.D, a fact that makes Ayesha to be at least 14 years of age at the time of her marriage around 613-624 A.D.

Tarikhu'l-umam wa'l-mamlu'k, Al-Tabari, Vol 4, Pg 50, Arabic, Dara'l-fikr, Beirut, 1979).

10. Ibn Hisham, the historian, reports that Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam quite some time before `Umar ibn al-Khattab which only means that Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam close to the time of first revelation (around 610 A.D). This means she must have been at least a young girl at that time. Assuming she was barely 6 or 7 at that time this information puts the age of Ayesha at 20 or more at the time of her marriage with Muhammad (623-624 A.D.), (Al-Sirah al-Nabawiyyah, Ibn Hisham, vol 1, Pg 227 – 234 and 295, Arabic, Maktabah al-Riyadh al-hadithah, Al-Riyadh).

11. Tabari reports that before migrating to Habashah, Abu Bakr planned to hand over his daughter, Ayesha to Mut’am’s son to whom she was engaged. But fearing persecution by the Quraish, Mut’am refused and his son divorced Ayesha. The migration to Habashah happened 8 years before Hijra. Obviously, at the time she was ready to take on responsibilities as a wife (possibly 9 or 10 years of age). If she married Muhammad in the 2nd Hijrah (623-624 A.D), she could not be less than 19 years of age (a secondary reference for this argument is: Tehqiq e umar e Siddiqah e Ka'inat, Habib ur Rahman Kandhalwi, Urdu, Pg 38, Anjuman Uswa e hasanah, Karachi, Pakistan).

12. A famous Sunni imam, Ahmad ibn Hanbal, reports in His Musnad, that after the death of Khadijah, Khaulah came to the Prophet (pbuh) and advised him to marry again. She had two propositions for the Prophet: Either Muhammad could marry a virgin (bikr), or he could go for woman who had already been married (thayyib)". Khaulah named Ayesha for a virgin (bikr). It is common knowledge that the term bikr in the Arabic language refers to a well formed lady and not to a 9 year old, playful, immature lass. If she were nine, the word used by Khaulah would have been jariyah and not bikr.

(Musnad, Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Vol 6, Pg 210, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-`arabi, Beirut).

13. Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani has reported that Fatimah, Muhammad’s daughter, was five years older than Ayesha and that Fatimah was born when the Prophet was 35 years old. Thus, Ayesha, according to Ibn Hajar, was born when Muhammad was 40 and consummated her marriage when he was 54 or 55. That makes Aysha at least 15-16 years of age.

(Al-isabah fi tamyizi'l-sahabah, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, Vol 4, Pg 377, Arabic, Maktabatu'l-Riyadh al-haditha, al-Riyadh,1978)

Finally, it must be pointed out that Ayesha’s age at the time of her marriage has never been an issue. If it were, his enemies must have picked up on this issue as they did to him on some other issues. Also, the reader must note that none of these Hadith reports concerning Ayesha’s controversial age of marriage with the Prophet goes back to the Prophet himself. In other words, it is not the Prophet himself who said Ayesha was 6 or 9. These reports came from a single individual and the Iraqis reported from him when he grew old and his memory started failing.


http://www.quranicteachings.co.uk

#988 Urstruly

Or are you saying that there is no moral dilemma for Muslims if Muhammad at 53 years of age wanted to have sex with a 6 year-old?

misc. by tahir

tahir,

Anger comes from fear. Look at Urstruly. He knows that. So he controls his anger so as not to betray his fear. Salim tries too, but is not always successful.

#988 Urstruly

[For arguments sake, from secular point of view, there cannot be a moral dilemma - labels are just that, labels. ]

Who's talking about a "dilemma"? (A Freudian slip, perhaps? :-))

And you have no problems assigning all kinds of "labels" to all kinds of people at other times.

So why can't you put the label now? I'll repeat the question for your convenience:

IF (for argument's sake) Mohammad had proposed marriage to Ayesha when she was 6 years old, would THAT make him a pedophile?

Re: # 982

For arguments sake, from secular point of view, there cannot be a moral dilemma - labels are just that, labels.

Re: # 976
The NGK plug is mis-firing again!

Re: # 959
A-gay-a,

Stop this hypothetical non-sense!

And let your dog take you on a walk to the nearest ditch.

Re: # 959
A-gay-a,

Stop this hypothetical non-sense!

And let your dog take you on a walk to the nearest ditch.

Re: # 949

"Tahir, I am proud to address you as a brother."

Your re-affirmation has been noted with great satisfaction! Woe to the blasphemers...

Thanks again!

Re: # 945

Nice try fake god!

The Qur'an is THE guidance, not the hadith literature.

#980 Posted by Urstruly

Hey Urstruly,

IF (for argument's sake) Mohammad had proposed marriage to Ayesha when she was 6 years old, would THAT make him a pedophile?

Note that I said "for argument's sake".

Re: # 940

Thanks for letting me save some energy typing the same conclusion!

Re: # 978

Ahadith about the age of Ayesha (RA) are verbatim quotes of Mother Ayesha herself. They come from authenticated and verified set of Ahadith. Earlier Muslims made their utmost effort to authenticate ahadith as was humanly possible at that time. Therefore I have no doubt in my mind that the Ahadith that are verbatim quote of Mother Ayesha (RA) are correct.

However, I do agree with the notion that at the age of their marriage Mother Ayesha would have been close to 15 or 16. The glaring evidence come from another Hadith where it mentions how Mother Ayesha (RA) was first noticed by Holy Prophet (pbuh). This hadith describes the time when Holy Prophet (pbuh) along with his family was exiled from Mecca and confined in a canyon called Canyon of Sha'ab-abi-Talib outside the city where they all remained under severe hardship for close to three years. At that time it was forbidden for all people of Mecca to make any contact with the prisoners and provide food or clothing to them. During that period of confinement it was Mother Ayesha who sometimes used to sneak in some food and water into the canyon. But not only that she would also provide news and happenings in the city to the prisoners. Our Holy prophet (pbuh) was quite impressed by the intelligence of that girl and how she had complete understanding of the situation. Now if we take those ahadith that quote Ayesha (ra) as saying that she was 6 years old at the time of marriage, then that puts Ayesha's age at the time of confinement in the Canyon close to 3.5 to 4 years. I do not think that a child 3.5 - 4 years old, no matter how smart, has the physical capability to take food and water close to 2-3 km outside the city. Therefore my assessment as well of many others is that Ayesha was a much older person at the time of her marriage, probably close 15 years and when marriage was consumed she might be close to 18.

But here is a point I like to make is that I have no doubt in mind that the hadith quoting Ayesha are absolutely accurate, but I think our mother may not have been able to assess her own age accurately. This is quite plausible taking into accounta time about 1500 years ago.

Another plausibility is that she might have assessed her age accurately but we think in term of Gregorian Calendars where a year is 365 days. As far as I know the commonly used calendar in those days was the Jewish calendar where the number of months in each caledar year were arbitrarily chosen on the descretion of high preist. Some of their years were stretched over 20 months or so. In those days some of the months in the calendar were considered sacred when all wars were put to stop but when Jews used to see that they had a chance of winning they would drag the months longer so that they could bring the war to conclusion. Allah specifically forbade this practice through Qura'n (I don't remember the verse) but it provides evidence that it is not prudent to compare the length of years in that era with the years in the Gregorian or Lunar calendars of today.

#973 Salim_Chauhan

[I could also ask you whether you had stopped beating your wife.]

Why don't you ask me that, and see what I say in response?

[Your question is as stupid as that age-old trick. If you were seriously interested in the reasons and justifications for the various marriages of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) and his companions, I would gladly indulge your quest.]

Forget about my sinister motivations. Just take the question as an objective question.

See Salim, there IS a reason you guys cannot face this question (and many others). It is because ONCE you address this question, you have to start thinking about the POSSIBILITY that he was a pedophile, and therefore the POSSIBILITY that he was just another lowly con-man who is of a very bad character, and the POSSIBILITY that your loyal club membership is not going to produce the membership benefits that you have been hoping for all your life.

[The marriages included Mohammed's (PBUH) life-long partner, a widow who was 15 years older than he. Also, he married a black woman, an Egyption Copt, and a daughter of Hazrat Omar (RA). He gave the hands of two daughters to Hazrat Othman (RA) and one to Imam Ali (RA). In the tribal Arabia of those days, it was customary to marry to cement alliances.]

And he married his daughter-in-law Zainab who he happened to see naked, and his wives threatened to go public when they caught him spending too much time raping the newly acquired white Egyptian slave.

[Yes, he married Hazrat Ayesha (RA), the young daughter of Hazrat Abu Bakr (RA). Thanks to the senility of certain sources, who wrote several generations after the events, there is considerable confusion about her age at the time of her marriage and consummation of that marriage. The most reliable version puts that age between 16 and 18.]

Heh heh. Okay. Now IF (for argument's sake) it so happened that he had lustful feelings for Ayesha when she was 6 (or younger - because he proposed marriage when she was 6 - he must have seen her before too) and he was a man of 55 with grey pubic hair, THEN what?

[If you are attempting to suggest that, Nauzbillah, our Holy Prophet (PBUH) was a pedophile, Toba Toba, then you must know that pedophilia is manifested as a recurring problem and never a single faux pas.]

Not necessarily. He must have had the urge all along, and only satisfied it when he was powerful enough to do it without people rebelling against him. End of the day, he had to maintain the loyalty of his subjects as well.

[Shame on you. Do you have the same inquisitive concern about all the other religious leaders in history? What have you researched about Jesus Christ? about Brigham Young? About the Medicis? ]

Jesus Christ was a non-violent and honorable man. But that is besides the point. Let's not lose focus here. :-)

Folks, some thoughts on age of Bibi Ayesha …

Sources that peg her age at 9 years are mostly traced back to one person, named Hisham or something alike, who apparently had moved to Iraq at a later point in his life. Note that it was a good century after the demise of the Prophet that the ahadith were compiled. The best Bukhari and company could do was to try to document ahadith to the best of their abilities.

There are other ways to estimate Ayesha’s (ra) age … by using the dates of certain events, time intervals that elapsed between events, and by adding and subtracting years. This way her age comes out to be closer to 16, 17-ish years …

Urstruly, you corner yourself by placing ahadith above Quran, and insisting that all ahadith were correctly recorded. Incidentally, this forms the basis of your Islam. Merely insisting that marriage to a 9-year old was divinely mandated does not cut it, I am afraid.

Salim, your main issue is with Urstruly; read his posts to understand why. What you are distancing yourself from, he is embracing whole heartedly … while essentially insisting on divine mandate.

And yes, you were not there when Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) married Ayesha (ra) … or when Gopi groped the gopis … but apparently you were there when Mirza Sahib died. I hope you see the absurdity and hypocrisy of your views. And problem of Islam is not Ahmadis, not Daruz, not the CIA … but violent tendencies and lack of intellectual capital amongst the ummah itself. Read the newspapers when you get a chance ... or talk to your local imam.

+++

Coming back to the article, its title, and the tone: I do think that the author unnecessarily took shots at Islam … which makes one wonder about her own motives and biases. She would have done better by trying to shed light at the crux of the issue … honor killings and plight of women in general … without denouncing her faith in Islam. Her lack of faith in Islam is a separate issue. If she sees a connection between Islam and honor killings … it seems she failed to properly establish it.

Some criticism of her writing is hence justified, but not at the cost of the larger point regarding plight of women. When this larger point is compromised by defenders of Islam, greater injustice is done to the cause … all in the name of Islam … which in turn gives credence to the author slamming Islam in the first place. This cycle needs to be broken … if not by the author, then by the ummah itself. Both failed!

Plight of women remains an issue … amongst many cultures. Each culture justifies it in its own way ... by wrapping it up in cultural practices, religious edicts, political necessities, etc. Arguably, application of religion may very well play a role … and hence should be carefully reviewed; hopefully without reviling the author.

I asked eklavy saab that zeemax munafiq saab says he has had sex recently with women in muscat. I say that is wrong but eklavy saab say it is ok as the girls had good time too.

i ask as Islam stops us from comitting "zina" why it is ok for zeemax to have sex and not others saab?

this is what zeemax saab says
{"Yaar forget it. I just fucked half a dozen hindoo wenches in three holes each last week in Bahrain, Dubai and Muscat. This idiot just wants one Muslim right? So all I'm saying is go ahead and do it."}

this is the conversation with eklavy saab that i had and then he did not reply to,

eklavy saab,

the question was not about what individuals got out saab

question is about moral value saab

for example, is it ok saab if i have sex with zeemax's sister saab without marrying her saab?

as long as she has good time saab and i guarantee that saab

is zeemax saab happy about that saab? you should check with him saab

what is good for him saab is goo for me saab

then he should not bring Quran e Majid into this saab as Quran e Majid clearly talks of this as a moral issue saab and not just individual matter of having good time saab

maybe zeemax saab can reply as i want to make sex with his sister and if i can go ahead or not saab

all i want to know saab if it is ok for zeemax to drink alcohol and have sex outside marriage then why cannot the ordinary man and woman in my country.

there seem to be double standards, no??

Re: # 952
Salim Ch...
Did you know that Jawaharlal Nehru had an illicit relationship with Sardar Vallabhai Patel?

....
Ha ha ha....this is real joke...Whenever you bring Ayesha,Zainab,Maria these people behave like 100% lunatic...
Salim Ch..., there is no point being personal. If Mo was paedophile, what is your problem?

Re: # 948
Salim Ch..
Ans: What is the history lesson I have to learn?
The areas of MP and UP (Malwa and Bundelkhand) are very close to Delhi. Rise of Sivaji was much earler than Nadir Shah invastion. It is see stupidity to bring Nadir Shah and Navy matter for the defeat of Mughals at the hands of Marathas...

Re: # 972

eklavy saab,

the question was not about what individuals got out saab

question is about moral value saab

for example, is it ok saab if i have sex with zeemax's sister saab without marrying her saab?

as long as she has good time saab and i guarantee that saab

is zeemax saab happy about that saab? you should check with him saab

what is good for him saab is goo for me saab

then he should not bring Quran e Majid into this saab as Quran e Majid clearly talks of this as a moral issue saab and not just individual matter of having good time saab

Ajeya #968 {"You are just delaying the inevitable. Come on now. Let's have the answer"}

Ajeya,
I could also ask you whether you had stopped beating your wife. Your question is as stupid as that age-old trick. If you were seriously interested in the reasons and justifications for the various marriages of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) and his companions, I would gladly indulge your quest. Unfortunately, you are merely interested in finding any ammunition whatsoever to use for scoring against the people you hate - Muslims and Pakis.

The marriages included Mohammed's (PBUH) life-long partner, a widow who was 15 years older than he. Also, he married a black woman, an Egyption Copt, and a daughter of Hazrat Omar (RA). He gave the hands of two daughters to Hazrat Othman (RA) and one to Imam Ali (RA). In the tribal Arabia of those days, it was customary to marry to cement alliances. Yes, he married Hazrat Ayesha (RA), the young daughter of Hazrat Abu Bakr (RA). Thanks to the senility of certain sources, who wrote several generations after the events, there is considerable confusion about her age at the time of her marriage and consummation of that marriage. The most reliable version puts that age between 16 and 18.

If you are attempting to suggest that, Nauzbillah, our Holy Prophet (PBUH) was a pedophile, Toba Toba, then you must know that pedophilia is manifested as a recurring problem and never a single faux pas. Shame on you. Do you have the same inquisitive concern about all the other religious leaders in history? What have you researched about Jesus Christ? about Brigham Young? About the Medicis?

peon sahib, sorry I overlooked this. Have answered it on unplugged. Regards.

Re: # 946

eklavy saab

this is what Zeemax said saab
"{"Yaar forget it. I just fucked half a dozen hindoo wenches in three holes each last week in Bahrain, Dubai and Muscat. This idiot just wants one Muslim right? So all I'm saying is go ahead and do it."}"

may be this is the Islam you were talking about eklavy saab of promiscuous sex and alcohol saab

if it is good enough for zeemax it is good enough for all the other muslims saab, right?

Re: # 946

eklavy saab,

is this the same islam saab that zeemax promotes saab

according to zeemax the munafiq saab it is ok to drink alcohol and sleep with women. may be that is why you mentioned sexual promiscuity saab

also zeemax the munafiq doesnot believe in namaz,roza,zakat,haj either saab

we donot have to look at american suffi thing saab,we have this Islam right here in our country saab

#965 Urstruly

[Name one person from this day and age of reality TV and paparazzi whose life has been documented so closely as that of prophet Mohammad (pbuh). Now take your mind to centuries ago and think whether it was possible then? Can't you see that Allah made it possible through Prophet Mohammad's (companions and wives).Today we know extremely minute details about the life of Holy Prophet because these people made effort to document it. Since life of prophet Mohammad (pbuh) is the beacon for the rest of humanity, which guides humanity how to be successful in every aspect in this life and beyond, Allah made arrangements through Ayesha (RA) and other companions to document the very private life of Prophet so that the people who would come later would understand his personality with ease.. It is because of Ayesh (RA) and the thousands of hadiths that she narrated that we come up with a complete picture of a human being of which a large part of humanity even today is in awe. This is the power of Divine mandate. Our mother Ayesha (RA) later turned out to be one of the greatest scholars in history of Islam. How can you deny this evidence that their marriage was a Divine mandate. Don't you see that very "historical evidence" that you use to berate us was provided by none other but Ayesha (ra) herself and protected and propagated by none other but us. Could you ever know about Ayesha (ra) had she not documented it for us?Do you have an evidence of your own?

So please calm down. Don't you see that there is a Divine mandate at work here again, otherwise why would you come here at Chowk and inquire about a person who passed away 15 centuries ago.]

Urstruly,

I wish you could see how idiotic this sounds from outside the padded cell.

You have provided "proof" that he is a messenger of god because his life is the "most documented" therefore there is a divine purpose. Therefore he was the messenger, and therefore nothing else matters.

You see, for rational people, the reasoning is the OTHER way round. He is a pedophile, a mass murderer and a serial killer. Therefore one should not listen to ANYTHING that comes out of his mouth. Especially cock-and-bull stories about meeting a winged creature in a cave. Case closed.


[Don't you understand that God is in fact pleased with you? He has brought you closer to the people who can answer your queries. Please do not waste this extraordinary opportunity wallowing in self inflicted hatred.]

When I see a pedophile, I call him a pedophile. I don't see that as an opportunity.

[Open up your mind and recognize your Creator who shows great mercy to you.]

You see, Urstruly, I don't need the creator's or anyone's "mercy". This is because I an not a "faithful" belonging to the simplistic and childish Abrahamic traditions. I identify with the philosophy that is inherent in our Sanatana Dharma - that says "Tat twam asi" or "You are him". I AM a manifestation of that trandescent reality, also known as Brahman. As is everything else. We Hindus are not "afraid", and therefore do not need "mercy".

It's as simple as that.

#963 Salim_Chauhan

[You are asking me as if I was there. Let me tell you that I was not there and neither were you. ]

Heh heh. No, I am NOT asking you that (and you know it too). I am NOT asking you whether IN FACT it happened.

I am asking you that IF it had indeed happened (if we assume that iit had happened, just for argument's sake), THEN would you consider him a pervert?

You are just delaying the inevitable. Come on now. Let's have the answer.

:-)

dm ji, this is not a new Urstruly. Urstruly bhai has been like this (and has made the same or similar arguments with similar restraint) for as long as I remember.

Yeah, often he gets in a fighting mood, but then who does not? :)

Urstruly#965:

Wow! Have you mellowed, or have you mellowed?

Re: # 961

Yours is a futile effort. People are hesitant to answer your question because you are not ready to open up your mind and understand it. Here let me try:

First of all understand that, in our mind there is absolutely no doubt that Mohammad (pbuh) was true prophet of God and his marriage with Ayesha was a Divine mandate. Now since you are a non-believer in the above two notions your logic runs in the opposite direction instead i.e. Since Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) married a minor (according to present day standards) therefore he cannot be Prophet. Let me explain why a believer's logic is valid and non-believer's logic is invalid:

Name one person from this day and age of reality TV and paparazzi whose life has been documented so closely as that of prophet Mohammad (pbuh). Now take your mind to centuries ago and think whether it was possible then? Can't you see that Allah made it possible through Prophet Mohammad's (companions and wives). Today we know extremely minute details about the life of Holy Prophet because these people made effort to document it. Since life of prophet Mohammad (pbuh) is the beacon for the rest of humanity, which guides humanity how to be successful in every aspect in this life and beyond, Allah made arrangements through Ayesha (RA) and other companions to document the very private life of Prophet so that the people who would come later would understand his personality with ease.. It is because of Ayesh (RA) and the thousands of hadiths that she narrated that we come up with a complete picture of a human being of which a large part of humanity even today is in awe. This is the power of Divine mandate. Our mother Ayesha (RA) later turned out to be one of the greatest scholars in history of Islam. How can you deny this evidence that their marriage was a Divine mandate. Don't you see that very "historical evidence" that you use to berate us was provided by none other but Ayesha (ra) herself and protected and propagated by none other but us. Could you ever know about Ayesha (ra) had she not documented it for us?Do you have an evidence of your own?

So please calm down. Don't you see that there is a Divine mandate at work here again, otherwise why would you come here at Chowk and inquire about a person who passed away 15 centuries ago. Don't you understand that God is in fact pleased with you? He has brought you closer to the people who can answer your queries. Please do not waste this extraordinary opportunity wallowing in self inflicted hatred. Open up your mind and recognize your Creator who shows great mercy to you.
:

Salim:

Jan Sangh became BJP, unless a new entity has come up with the same name. Hindu Sabha may still be surviving in name somewhere but it's dead for all practical purposes.

Ajeya #959,
You are asking me as if I was there. Let me tell you that I was not there and neither were you. Also, I was not there when the Gopi Groper groped the gopis or the big chief screwed his own daughter or when Sita went Ram Ram with Rawan or when Hanuman mounted Ganesh. This is all told to people by people removed from reality by several generations.

{"Does Jan Sangh still exist after the creation of the BJP? "}

DM Sahib,
I really don't keep track of them - they all look the same to me. Is Jan Sangh dead or part of BJP? What happened to the Hindu Mahasabha - the real creators of Pakistan?

After a while the KKK, Aryan Brothers, White Power, Liberty College, 700 Club, etc all start to get blurred as one aberration.

It's interesting, isn't it, how a small simple yes or no question can take people so long to answer?

: )

Salim#955:

Does Jan Sangh still exist after the creation of the BJP?

#95 Salim_Chauhan

[These "sources" of Hadiths were born generations after the events that they so "accurately" describe. So and so told so and so who told so and so that so and so did this to so and so. No wonder, some very learned people in Turkey are going to heave a lot of this unsubstantiated nonsense into the trash bin.]


To everyone who is watching this debate: THIS is how you deal with people who try to exonerate the guilty by creating doubts about the details of the crime:

Hey Salim,

One question. IF IT WAS TRUE that Mohammed had expressed a desire to marry Ayesha when she was 6, and ultimately married her when she was 9, would you THEN consider him to be a lowlife?

Please note that I am not saying here if it was ACTUALLY TRUE OR NOT. Just tell me - IF IT WAS TRUE - then would you consider him to be a lowlife and a pervert?

(Just don't tell me that you don't discuss hypotheticals. Because over the years, you have discussed lots of hypothetical questions.)

Can we get an answer to this?

:-)

(that smiley means that I am asking nicely)

Eklavya #957 {"salim bro, religion is a personal matter only so long as it does not make assumptions and declarations about the beliefs of others. This new development may not a personal matter in that sense. It is an attempt to take over a religious domain occupied by others, before their appearance."}

Kaal Bhayya,
Beautifully phrased! Adulteration and obfuscation are the well-proven tricks of the insincere and those with ulterior motives. By attaching themselves to some obscure yet acceptable philosophy, these usurpers want to throw bricks at Muslims and stay "Muslim" in the eyes of the world and their own questionable conscience.

I have visited Konya, here in Turkey, a couple of times and have learned to respect Mevlana Jalaluddin Rumi as an inspiring and thoroughly Muslim scholar. His emphasis on love is not the same as these charlatans' approval of insulting the Holy Prophet (PBUH), his family, and the basic tenets of Islam. The hypocrites who go out of the way to convince us that they are Sufis, or followers of Rumi, or even "modern" Muslims are just spiritual cowards. At least Salamander Rushdie and Hirsa Ali had the guts to leave Islam as they ridiculed their former faith. The only thing worse than a kaafir is a munafiq.

zee, recognizably, we are calling folks 'sufistic' very loosely here. To use a term for (aspects of) echodada, and to turn around and use the same term for Asra Nomani is just wrong. Yet Nomanis of the world see themselves as propounding/following some sort of Sufistic tradition, which is, of course, a tragedy and a farce.

What's happening of course is Islam's power perpetuating itself, despite people's personal efforts. There are lots of people who have no interested in what Islam wants from them in actual content, yet cannot escape its hold. So their only way out is to declare 'traditional Muslims as sorts of 'non-Muslims,' mirzai like.

-----------------

salim bro, religion is a personal matter only so long as it does not make assumptions and declarations about the beliefs of others. This new development may not a personal matter in that sense. It is an attempt to take over a religious domain occupied by others, before their appearance. One can legitimize oneself based on some principles, or by decrying the behavior of others. In this new tradition, you will see more of the latter. Salim will be labeled in newer and more creative ways :)

#946 Posted by Eklavya,

But it is an interesting development, to say the least. Probably more interesting to people who were known as Muslims before this new American Sufistic Islam made its own claims.

Would you care to expound on this Kaal? LoL

(Let's continue here. I would like to gift this Azra Nomani a thousand+ posts, as I did before to that Asra Shandana-Nomani. Though I wonder why this article is not listed in 'Most Popular of the Week'? I thought after 900+ posts it should be)

DM Sahib,
Jan Sangh, Sang something, and Maharashtra something - latest party active in chopping of hands of poor Hindu Bihari laborers.

#923 re: awards

...and the award for the most annoying personality, devoid of any intellectual content, goes to BJ Coomar - the "man" with the filthiest mouth, for obvious reasons.

Salim:
What do JS, SP and MNS stand for? I think that I know the rest.

Allah talla ka mara huwa {"The thought of an old man becoming aroused by a child is one of the most disturbing thoughts that makes us cringe as it reminds us of pedophilia and the most despicable people"}

Tell me, o divinely cursed one,
Is your lengthy research motivated by concern for a child or are you merely gathering ammunition to score points against your hated enemas?

These "sources" of Hadiths were born generations after the events that they so "accurately" describe. So and so told so and so who told so and so that so and so did this to so and so. No wonder, some very learned people in Turkey are going to heave a lot of this unsubstantiated nonsense into the trash bin.

You probably believe in the daughter of Jesus, the Da Vinci code, and Brahma's incestuous relationship with his own daughter.

Did you know that Jawaharlal Nehru had an illicit relationship with Sardar Vallabhai Patel?

arjun #919 {"that's such a retarded comeback that even your own multi-nicks won't find it funny..."}

Arjun,
You asked a retarded "this or that" question and got a retarded "that" answer. What's so retarded about that?

Tell me, did your maternal uncle (Maamoon) give birth to you?

Eklavya #946 {"In this new 'Islam,' a person can have promiscuous sex 24/7 (that is a ridiculous overexaggeration of Tantrika, but you get the point), can take/accept abuse of Prophet Muhammad ... "}

Kaal Bhayya,
Religion, in my opinion, is a personal matter. People can believe what they like. But when, obviously self-serving, self-righteous people like Asra Nomani become "Muslim" activists one has to wonder about their motives. Are they trying to legitimize their acceptance of profanity against our Holy Prophet (PBUH) or, more importantly, are they trying to legitimize their out of wedlock production?

Tahir #931 {"Chauhan sahib,
Mr. Max and you address me as 'brother', that is comforting; others abuse me is of no consequence. They are a mentally confused lot who think I'm a Pakistani-German!"}

Tahir,
I am proud to address you as a brother. Anyone who doesn't behave like an "acceptable" Muslim to these BJP/RSS/VHP/BD/JS/SP/SS/MNS hate-mongrels is a jihadist in their estimation. Also, an "acceptable" Muslim is one who agrees with their insulting of Our Holy Prophet (PBUH), enjoys the "Mo & Ayesha" blasphemy, and drinks alcohol or gao muttra with them while badmouthing Islam, Muslims, and Pakistan. Oh yes, the "acceptable" Muslim is also blinded by "India Shining."

nkg #943{"What Nadir Shah had to do with Sikhs of Punjab?
How Navy is coming into the picture between Maratha and Mughals?

nkg,
If I need to lecture you about Indian history you are never going to learn and, more importantly, you are going to be even more pissed off. Go ahead and memorize the BJP/RSS/VHP/BD/JS/SS/SP/MNS hate-mongrel's mantra.

#946 Posted by Eklavya,

American Sufistic 'Islam'

It is a step ahead of even above. I think a better term would be 'Islamic Scientology'.

But obviously and quite visibly, Asra Nomani's entire new religion is based on nymphomania. I would like to meet some of her followers :)

Tahir, zee

I think a new form of 'Islam' is developing - Amnerican Sufism, or Sufism II.

In this new 'Islam,' a person can have promiscuous sex 24/7 (that is a ridiculous overexaggeration of Tantrika, but you get the point), can take/accept abuse of Prophet Muhammad, insist on worshipping Persian gods and goddesses instead of Allah, attend yoga sessions and sing om songs, accept non-Muslims the same as Muslims, and call all other unfortunate 'traditional' Muslims backward and regressive. Their strong claim is that ultimately they remain true to 'Islam' like everybody else.

As an outsider, fascinated by the nature of sufism, I can accept this new American Sufistic 'Islam' at its face value and try to understand it on its own terms.

But it is an interesting development, to say the least. Probably more interesting to people who were known as Muslims before this new American Sufistic Islam made its own claims.

What is this that I read about my Beloved? I am angry now!!

The thought of an old man becoming aroused by a child is one of the most disturbing thoughts that makes us cringe as it reminds us of pedophilia and the most despicable people. It is difficult to accept that the Holy Prophet married Aisha when she was 6-years-old and consummated his marriage with her when she was 9. He was then, 54 years old.


Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

Some Muslims claim that it was Abu Bakr who approached Muhammad asking him to marry his daughter. This is of course not true and here is the proof.

Sahih Bukhari 7.18
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry."


Abu Bakr and Muhammad had pledged to each other to be brothers. So according to their costoms Ayesha was supposed to be like a niece to the Holy Prophet. Yet that did not stop him to ask her hand even when she was only six years old.

But this moral relativist Prophet would use the same excuse to reject a woman he did not like.
Sahih Bukhari V.7, B62, N. 37
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
It was said to the Prophet, "Won't you marry the daughter of Hamza?" He said, "She is my foster niece (brother's daughter). "

Hamza and Abu Bakr both were the foster brothers of Muhammad. But Ayesha must have been too pretty for the Prophet to abide by the codes of ethics and custom.

In the following Hadith he confided to Ahesha that he had dreamed of her before soliciting her from her father.

Sahih Bukhari 9.140
Narrated 'Aisha:
Allah's Apostle said to me, "You were shown to me twice (in my dream) before I married you. I saw an angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said to him, 'Uncover (her),' and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.

Whether Muhammad had actually such dream or he just said it to please Ayesha is not the point. What matters here is that it indicates that Ayesaha was a baby being “carried” by an angel when the Prophet dreamed of her.

There are numerous hadithes that explicitly reveal the age of Ayesha at the time of her marriage. Here are some of them.

Sahih Bukhari 5.236.
Narrated Hisham's father:
Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.

Sahih Bukhari 5.234
Narrated Aisha:
The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.

And in another Hadith we read.

Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 41, Number 4915, also Number 4916 and Number 4917
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. according to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter.

In the above hadith we read that Ayesha was swinging, This is a play of little girls not grown up people. The following Hadith is particularly interesting because it shows that Ayesha was so small that was not aware what was going on when the Holy Prophet “surprised” her by going to her.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 90
Narrated Aisha:
When the Prophet married me, my mother came to me and made me enter the house (of the Prophet) and nothing surprised me but the coming of Allah's Apostle to me in the forenoon.


Must have been quite a surprise! But the following is also interesting because it demonstrates that she was just a kid playing with her dolls. Pay attention to what the interpreter wrote in the parenthesis. (She was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty)


Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151
Narrated 'Aisha:
I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)


Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3311
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.

The holy Prophet died when he was 63. So he must have married Ayesha when he as 51 and went to her when he was 54.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 33
Narrated 'Aisha:
I never felt so jealous of any woman as I did of Khadija, though she had died three years before the Prophet married me, and that was because I heard him mentioning her too often, and because his Lord had ordered him to give her the glad tidings that she would have a palace in Paradise, made of Qasab and because he used to slaughter a sheep and distribute its meat among her friends.


Khadija died in December of 619 AD. That is two years before Hijra. At that time the Prophet was 51-years-old. So in the same year that Khadija died the prophet married Ayesha and took her to his home 3 years later, i.e. one year after Hijra. But until she grow up he married Umm Salama.

In another part Ayesha claims that as long as she remembers her parents were always Muslims.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 245

Narrated 'Aisha:
(the wife of the Prophet) I never remembered my parents believing in any religion other than the true religion (i.e. Islam),



If Ayesha was older i.e. 16 or 18 as some Muslims claim, she would have remembered the religion of her parents prior to becoming Muslims.

Now someone may still claim that all these hadithes are lies. People are free to say whatever they want. But truth is clear like the Sun for those who have eyes.

Re: # 940

Zeemax:Daniel Pearl's activities in Pakistan were very shady, to say the least.)

every pakistani's activities are very shady in pakistan to say the least saab

is daniel a pakistani saab?