Don’t Hang Sarabjeet

Listen, Afzal was a scum Indian turncoat who tried to collaborate with the ISI to bring the Indian democracy to its knees by attacking the parliament.
HE SHOULD BE HANGED !!!

Pakistanis trying to ask for clemency for Afzal in exchange for Sarabjeet is like asking clemency for the ISI.
No, we will fight with ISI and its Paki supporters . We would destroy them when the time comes.
Go Pakis!! Go and hang sarabjeet- he was a martyr the day day he was caught- and we do not mourn martyrs!!

The key witness who testified that he had seen Sarabjeet plant the bomb(s) retracted his statement just a couple of days ago saying that he had been coerced into implicating Sarabjeet, only to change it again. Unless he had the desire to tell the truth after almost 2 decades, he wouldn't have retracted his original statement. And unless he hadn't been threatened by the Paki authorities, he wouldn't have gone back to it.

It is clear as daylight that something is amiss. Perhaps the Paki agencies were looking for an easy scapegoat.

hang him if you want to- we would NOT negotiate with Paki terrorist masters like Pirzadas/

If Sarabjit was genuinely a terrorist he has to be hanged. But there is enuff reason to believe that he has been framed.

Regards

Why should pakistanis show clemency when indians wont? It is simple: if Mr. Singh is guilty he should be hanged--if not he shouldn't be.

Dont hang Sarabjeet, hang Musharraf, hang PH, hang tahmed, hang Hamidm, hang the shrink, hang the Gill fellow, in fact hang all the goddamned peons of the West

Re: # 6

masadi saab(in fact hang all the goddamned peons of the West)

that is not nice masadi saab. i have little children saab and havenot done anything wrong saab

#5 by Naqshbandi

Why should pakistanis show clemency when indians wont?

In whose case? Afzal Guru's? Is Guru a Paki?

peon writes "havenot done anything wrong saab"

Ensuring your nation remains enslaved and its people poor is ample wrong as is the fact of killing other people's children while enriching yourself. The hanging will be done by the authorities and the people, no Sarabjeet could have done greater harm to Pakistan than you peons of the West have done

Re: # 9

masadi saab, may be it is a lot simpler to just hang you saab

you are not good for anything else saab so why not

Typical Islamic logic of the PAki mullahs like Naqshabandi and Pirzada-
they want us to gift them their hardcore terrorists like Mullah Omar and Afzals back so that they can be furthered nurtured to blow bigger holes successfully into indian parliaments.
Islam loves their mujahideens like Mullah Omar and Afzal because of their resolve- but remember we indians have also resolved to crush your Islamic mujahideens - including Afzals this time.
They think our martyrs are weak enough to let them be swapped for Islamic mujahideens??
I think we should have kidnapped Musharaff his mullahs when they visited india and then should have swapped them for mullah omar and Dawood!!!

Re: #10 you mean like they did with ZAB, and that fixed the problems of this nation? a-hole

Moeed Pirzada wants 'India-Pakistan friendship' to bloom so that he and his class of well-connected elite Pakistanis, having positioned themselves as its brokers, can thereby enrich themselves. In this game that the robber elite of the criminal enterprise called the Pakistani state wants to play, Sarabjit Singh is simply a miserable pawn. Whether or not he hangs is a function not of his innocence or guilt but simply of reasons of state and elite interests.

Not content with toying with Sarabjeet Singh's fate, Mr. Pirzada wants to use him as leverage to interfere in India's domestic affairs by wangling clemency for Afzal Guru.

India needs to do nothing to ease the Pakistani consciousness. The Pakistani state and establishment deserve nothing but utter and total contempt.

Between nations there can be no friendship, only cold, hard calculations of interest. A realistic unsentimental relationship between the two nations, based on their actual comparative strengths and different stages of technological, economic, social and political development, will only be possible once the deluge has swept Moeed Pirzada and his ilk away.

Peon,

(you are not good for anything else saab so why not )

Regardless of my differences in opinion with Masadi sahib, I wud like him to follow ZAB's career path (minus the hanging) but hope that he wud be a more tolerant and inclusive leader and achieve something for the common man of Pak unlike ZAB who talked big but achieved little.

Regards

Re: # 14

majamidar saab, i was angry saab. he wants to hang everyone saab. why not start with masadi saab himself the peon asked?

may be we can do ZAB in reverse saab??

what makes you think he would be tolerant of anyone saab? he cannot even control himself online saab let alone in real life saab

use your brain majamidar saab.

this man masadi saab and people like him are a curse on our country saab

the peon would rather have some one with less intelligence but more humanity saab

Re: # 15

and majamidar saab, what you forget saab that ZAB was no good either saab. listen to his speaches saab, they were good to stir emotion saab, that is it. that is hardly what we expect of a statesman saab

we peons in the subcontinent have a very strange idea of what is good for coutry and what is not saab. it is all on emotions saab and nothing on thinking saab

may be that is the problem saab and not "peo of the west" "peon of the west" rant saab

"aqal" is always bigger than "bhaince(buffalo)" saab even if it doesnot look it saab

Peon,

(what you forget saab that ZAB was no good either saab.)

I am aware of that and I have had several debates with Masadi sahib on ZAB.

Regards

Re: # 17

sorry majamidar saab there is lot more i can say saab but my english no good saab

we need to get rid of these people like masadi and zeemax saab. they are emotional saab and emotional people cannot think saab when the moment is hot saab

we need people with "aqal" saab who stay calm and get results without killing and threatening saab

that is problem both for india and pakistan saab, more for pakistan saab

these people are no better than what we have saab at present

Re: # 18

tahmed saheb, you are amazing!!

Re: # 19

this is peon saab not tahmeedi saab

tahmeedi saab is good man saab so donot spread rumors saab

Aha so its tahmed the reallife peon of the West doing a bad impersonation of himself, devoid as usual of morality, logic and fact. The one with the least aql of them all, tahmed, claims that his rat-fart brain is bigger than that of a bhainse

peon writes "and majamidar saab, what you forget saab that ZAB was no good either saab.."

He was no good for the peons of the West and their masters for sure but for the people he was the best this country had seen and has seen to date

You all can note how much busted these peons feel by the nicks they have been forced to construct, we have peonoftheeast, peonofthewest and US Elite, I have probably inspired more nicks than most!

You all can note how much busted these peons feel by the nicks they have been forced to construct, we have peonoftheeast, peonofthewest and US Elite, I have probably inspired more nicks than most!

Re: # 24

masadi saab, you are more stupid and paranoid than i thought saab

i have nothing to do with tahmeedi saab, i swear by Allah Mian saab. i am a kalma go musalman saab

masadi,

you must thank me for that.

Indians did a real hash of handling the Khalid Mehmood case. He likely died under police torture but why did they have to send his coffin to Pakistan and that, too, exactly when Kashmir Singh was sent back to India? Morons!

Sarabjit is likely a low level RAW agent collecting some intelligence but RAW is not known for exploding trains. There is something fishy about a case where people, inclding the accused, give one statement to the police and retract it later. It is well known that courts under Musharraf decided high profile cases under orders from above.

As for Afzal Guru, he is an Indian citizen and let his Indian friends fight for him. Does Mr. Pirzada feel that Indian Muslims are still a responsibility of Pakistan?

#27 Posted by dost_mittar,

Bracketing Indian Muslims with Kashmiri Muslims is incorrect, Dost. The Kashmiris didn't become Indian by choice, all the others did. So, in the Pakistani mind, they're in a category of their own and Pakistanis do feel responsible for them.

Re Surabjit singh, I really think he should be released in a prisoner exchange. Not for Guru, because he didn't deny his aiding and abetting (though only that, he didn't pull any trigger), but for the innocent Pakistanis (like the late Khalid Mehmood) in Indian jails.

Zee:

Okay, I see your point.

And I agree. There should be a prisoner exchange and most likely, this will take place. I cant see how Pakistani authorities can release Sarbjeet without getting anything in return, especially after the Khalid Mehmood tragedy.

Releasing sarbjeet without the consent of the next of kins of his victims would be travesty of justice, unethical, and clear declaration of war against the the commands of Allah. The laws of Qisas (blood money) and Diyat (compensation for injury) are the laws of the land. The only way sarbjeet be spared of noose is if all of the kins of his victims agree to accept blood money. Presidents, especially this piece of shit, should have no authority in this regard.

Those librals whose ears and tails get straightened out whenever they hear an "Islamic law" should stay calm and understand this that their masters, the white people, have started doing that too. For example, Libyan dicattor paid blood money to the Airline crash victims and everybody turned into buddies. The same libyan dicator got his money back plus more in exchange for the white nurses and doctors who infected libyan children with AIDS virus. See they are all buddies now. Now you can lower your tail and hair on your neck. Ok?

My sincere advice to Hindus is that they should make an offer to pay Qisas and Diyat pre-emptively to the next of the kins of sarbjeet's victims. Make them an offer that they ccould not refuse.They must hire lawyers and file a case in supreme court asking for its interference to facilitate Qisas proceedings.

Urstruly #31 {"My sincere advice to Hindus is that they should make an offer to pay Qisas and Diyat pre-emptively to the next of the kins of sarbjeet's victims. Make them an offer that they ccould not refuse"}

Urstruly,
Great! Also, the learned Alim Mr. Laddu has posted the prevailing rates from Soodi Arabia. So, Injuns, you better pray that most of Sarabjeet's Paki victims were Mirzaaees.

{"Blood of a Hindu woman.
Topic started by laddu on Apr 28, 2008 1:11:44 am
n the April 9, 2002 issue, The Wall Street Journal published the concept of blood money in Saudi Arabia . If a person has been killed or caused to die by another, the latter has to pay blood money or compensation, as follow.

100,000 riyals if the victim is a Muslim man
50,000 riyals if a Muslim woman
50,000 riyals if a Christian man
25,000 riyals if a Christian woman
6,666 riyals if a Hindu man
3,333 riyals if a Hindu woman"}

yep, pakis trying to make a buck from every situation... you guys are way ahead of bania on this, aren't you?

:)

Urstruly#30:

How do know if the courts really found him guilty or just gave a verdict based on what the higher-ups wanted? The verdict was given when Musharraf was still maintaing a hostile posture towards India. Notice that both Nawaz Sharief and Burney are casting doubts on his being guilty:

Nawaz Sharif asks Pak govt not to hang Sarabjit

April 28, 2008 22:08 IST


Efforts to save Indian national Sarabjit Singh from the gallows received a boost on Monday with former premier Nawaz Sharif asking the Pakistan government not to hang him on humanitarian grounds.

The Pakistan Muslim League-Nawaz chief, whose party is a key player in the ruling coalition led by the Pakistan People's Party, however, did not favour an unconditional pardon for Sarabjit, sentenced to death for his alleged involvement in bomb attacks that killed 14 people in 1990.

"Sarabjit should be released on the condition that he would be sent back to Pakistan if concrete evidence is found against him," Sharif was quoted as saying by TV news channels.

In an interview with the Aaj news channel, Sharif also suggested that any review of Sarabjit's case by the Pakistan government should be linked to similar action by the Indian government in the cases of Pakistanis currently being held in the neighbouring country.

"After seeing the plight of the members of Sarabjit's family who have come to Pakistan, any person can feel the pain they are going through," Sharif said.

"But if this individual (Sarabjit) has actually carried out terrorist attacks, then no person can easily ignore that".

Sharif further said in the interview, "If the Pakistan government is to examine this matter, then the issue of Pakistanis being held in India for similar cases should be linked to it".

The other TV channels said Sharif hinted that Sarabjit could be swapped for Pakistanis currently being held in Indian jails.

Sharif's comments came even as authorities in Punjab province put off Sarabjit's hanging for up to three weeks.

Sarabjit was originally set to be hanged on April 1, but his execution was deferred for 30 days by President Pervez Musharraf [Images]. This was done so that Pakistan's new government could review his case following an appeal for clemency from the Indian government.

According to existing rules, Sarabjit's case has to be put up again before a local court for fixing a fresh date for the execution.

The fresh date cannot be fixed before a period of 14 days or after 21 days. This means that the execution will be postponed for up to three weeks, officials said.

Former Pakistani human rights minister Ansar Burney welcomed Sharif's comments and the decision to put off Sarabjit's hanging.

"It's a very good sign," Burney told PTI, adding he was ready to share the evidence he had gathered in Sarabjit's case with Sharif.

"Due to the suspicious nature of the case against Sarabjit, his execution should not be carried out. Relations between India and Pakistan are improving and India's External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee is scheduled to visit Pakistan next month. In view of these developments, the government should review Sarabjit's case," he said.

Burney also said he had sought appointments with Musharraf and Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gillani to take up Sarabjit's case and was hopeful of meeting them sometime soon.

Re: # 34 DM

I am unfamiliar with the history of court proceedings in this case but I have a feeling that the verdict was given by civilian courts; whereby all verdicts and their related documents are catalogued in the books of legal verdicts. These books are made available to general public especially lawyers who use such refernce as to quote precedence in future cases.

So far I have not heard any voice challenging the evidence or the legal proceedings.

This is the situation as it is. But lets apply Murphy's law assume that all evidence was doctored and all proceedings were manipulated. In this case should the authorities let a convict go just because some people are raising hue and cry? Even if that is the case, no government no matter how corrupt would, let a convict go because it undermines its own authority in a bigger scheme of things.

I do not know if Sarabjit has exhausted all his avenues of appeal or not because if he has not then he can file a petition to re-open his case.

But if he has already exhausted all the avenues of an appeal his best option would be to invoke the law of Qisas. Once he has done that Indian government, NGOs, and affluent community should work out a deal with the monetary compensation with the victims. I am pretty sure that with a handsome settlement and a lovey dovey media propaganda this deal is quite possible.

Look, this avenue is guarnteed by the Pakistani constitution (or whatever is left of it) and the law. The only reason that the corrupt, pro-western, coward ruling elite do not let this law into practice because these cowrds are scared to death that their foreign masters would be aggravated by it because the law has the word "Islamic" as an adjective attched to it. Because of this criminal negligence and in defiance of law of God Pakistan has become the fourth country in the world that imparts the death penalty and yet the rate of murders is as high as if country is at war.

Urstruly#35:

I too have not followed this case closely but I believe that it was tried in the civilian courts. But I also am aware that the civilian courts did not act entirely independently during the military regime.

"So far I have not heard any voice challenging the evidence or the legal proceedings."

Such voices have been raised, at least in the Indian media, it seems that the case relies mostly on statements by the accused under police interrogation (and you know what that means) and another witness who have retracted their earlier statements. Even the statements of Nawaz and Ansar that I copied seem to suggest that they are not sure if the proceedings were fair.

I personally think that the much vaunted back-channel diplomacy should be able to arrange for a prisoner swap in this situation.

Re: # 36 DM

I understand what you wrote, but the problem is that courts of law do not recognize the "raised concerns". they have to look at the evidence. Usually the losing part always makes such fuss, and winning aprty always considers it a victory of justice when the verdict turns their way. GOI is doing a miserable job by not providing legal assistance to Sarabjit if it considers that the "raised voices" have some weight.

Urstruly:

Yes, I think that GOI should provide him with legal assistance, although that may be hard because I believe that he probably is a RAW agent even if he did not blast the train.

Fuck this stupid board. Zardari has backed out from Judiciary's restoration and coalition will fall apart on 30 April. The Mehsuds had sensed it earlier and announced the end to the peace agreement earlier in the day.

The SOB is playing the Sindh card, same as his bitch of a wife. This means musharraf dismissing the parliament.

Guess hamidm2 will still have something to cheer about till guillotines are set up. The clock is ticking VERY fast now.

HP your comments please. Zardari has said BB's postmortem was done but the report is hidden, and a major power is involved in her murder.

Breaking news.

At first Zardari tried gently backing off from his word through cleverness on restoration of the judiciary..broke into a trot..and now has broken into a full-scale gallop to Dubai..and so Hamidm has a new lota to start cheering..

..but wait..PML is in hot persuit of the runaway stallion..

Shahbaz to remind Asif of deadline on judges
By Ahmad Fraz Khan

LAHORE, April 27: A PML-N delegation headed by the party’s president Mian Shahbaz Sharif was to leave for Dubai on Sunday night to ‘remind Mr Asif Ali Zardari of the approaching deadline set for reinstatement of judges’.
..
Sources in the PML-N said Mr Zardari had gone to Dubai with a promise to return home by Sunday afternoon.

“Since he has extended his stay in Dubai, it is necessary for the party (PML-N) to ensure continuity of talks over the issue of reinstatement of judges.

http://www.dawn.com/2008/04/28/top1.htm

peonofthewest sahib: i want you to know that it is a great honor to have you mistaken for me. this is like someone accusing me of being the real artist responsible for painting the Mona Lisa, the real author responsible for writing Shakespeare's Tempest.

I realize this mistake has been made by two of the more error-prone gentlemen on chowk (Messrs. masadi and laddu), but it remains nevertheless flattering.

Re: # 39 Zeemax:

See, I told you so. People of Pakistan do not realize that the deadly mess that our country is in today was created by the very people whom they elect. These 'elected' people have vested interests in keeping Pakistan inefficient, corrupt, and lawless. This chaos has made them some of the richest people in the world. Why would they want to change all this.

I think people of Pakistan's best option is to let Islamists and Talibans weed out these cancers with their guillotines. Unfortunately there remains no easy way for our salvation. Nature has finally run out of all the chances that it has been giving us.

#43 Posted by Urstruly,

I really don't know what to think. WTF has zardari done.

He's complaining about his stupid BMW case for not restoring the judiciary, and claiming credit for producing 27,000 MW of electricity via IPPs in 1994 when I KNOW PERSONALLY as a fact both he and BB took the difference between $660/MW cost and $1,000/MW over-invoiced and charged to the public.

I still have hope in PML-N who will sweep the next elections, but will those ever be held? I doubt anyone will survive this crisis Zardari has brought.

The other option, is well ... as you say, and I have been predicting too, but I hope.

... yeah I missed to mention the idiot said 27,000 MW. He just added a zero. What does the dumb public know anyway.

#40 Posted by zeemax
"HP your comments please. Zardari has said BB's postmortem was done but the report is hidden, and a major power is involved in her murder."

The first part of postmortem is new but the second part is old news. You must have seen my earlier posts on this.

I had a long conversations with couple of people in Pakistan last night. What I understand is that they wanna bring the Judges back but don't want them to have the powers to open cases against Mush baba!

Generally, I think lawyers should hit the streets now. The coalition is under pressure and only the street power can help them.

#46 Posted by HP,

Did you see the Zardari interview with Dr. Shahid Masood just now? If you didn't, don't miss it on PKpolitics tomorrow. He said many things, and I look forward to your comments WTF this person is doing. He's playing the Sindh card which will break apart the country and wreak havoc on Sindhis and Mohajirs. They will have to sort things between them on their own. Punjab/NWFP will still be fine. How come this guy doesn't realize that?

"#31 Posted by Urstruly on April 28, 2008 9:12:50 am
My sincere advice to Hindus is that they should make an offer to pay Qisas and Diyat pre-emptively to the next of the kins of sarbjeet's victims. Make them an offer that they ccould not refuse.They must hire lawyers and file a case in supreme court asking for its interference to facilitate Qisas proceedings. "

Sirji, Sarabjit Singh is a Sikh and we are Baniyas. ;)

I have a better idea - Let's exchange Sarabjit for Harbhajan

"Cricket: Harbhajan banned from tournament in slapping row NEW DELHI, April 28 (Reuters): India spinner Harbhajan Singh has been banned for the remainder of a domestic Twenty20 league after he was found guilty on Monday of slapping compatriot Shanthakumaran Sreesanth. Indian Premier League (IPL) Commissioner Lalit Modi told a news conference that the cricketer would be fined all of his match fees from the tournament. The incident happened on Friday, minutes after the Mumbai team captained by Harbhajan lost to Mohali. Television cameras failed to capture the incident but opposition paceman Sreesanth was seen sobbing on live TV. (Posted @ 15:45 PST)"

#46 Posted by HP,

Yes lawyers will hit the streets, and get beaten to a pulp.

And who will help them by blowing apart the policemen who beat the lawyers by shoving their same lathis up their ass? I don't have to give you three guesses for that. Remember what happened outside Lahore High Court.

Didn't have to come to that. This Zardari moron has betrayed the Public mandate, and the retribution will be very severe.

#50 Posted by zeemax
I just don't see any reason to be sentimental about the whole thing. This is politics not everything will go according to your desires.

He is right the PPP had no mandate with regards to Judges. He agreed with NS so he was bound by it. The only thing he has really done is break the agreement and NS should decide what his new course would be.

I don't agree with the PPP working with MQM in Sindh. In the end it will be a disaster for the PPP. But if NS leaves the govt., Zardari needs other partners.

Lawyers can do it in punjab. As long as Punjab is under NS, they will have a free reign. I also think that if NS decides to split, the punjab govt would be dissolved too.

So we are headed for a major confrontation...

I have already said it is not going to be easy. We are still at 50% mark.

#51 Posted by HP

He agreed with NS so he was bound by it. The only thing he has really done is break the agreement

The only thing? Just to break a vital agreement?

But yes, I agree with the rest of your post. Particularly 'So we are headed for a major confrontation...'

HP #51 "This is politics not everything will go according to your desires. "

I think there are too many people in Pakistan who dont share the view that this is "politics as usual". Zardari doesnt seem to understand that, just as Musharraf never understood it last year.

Also I think Zardari has made a huge blunder by making it clear that he never meant to live up to his commitment to restoration of the judges. A man who does not keep his word loses his credibility with anyone who is not a total fool, which is the vast majority of people. This is something Zardari doesnt seem to have understood.

Nawaz Sharif and the PMLN leadership on the other hand have stuck to their Bhurbhan promise. And thus earned the people's trust.

So - let us see how Napoleon's famous dictum ("Character is destiny") plays out in the months ahead in Pakistan.

jardari is deeply hurt by the judges..he was jailed for 3 years for not paying customs duty on a BMW...this is what he said in a radio interview. there was a lot of emotion in his voice..he said he pleaded 5 times in front of these judges and they did not give him justice. he wants a new set of judges...this is personal.

#54 that would be fine..if he had said aired his grievances in Bhurbhan rather than making false promises at that time.

Like I said - he is making the same mistake as Musharraf made in not understanding the mood of the country. And in trying to be "overclever". Musharraf made one blunder after another last year, and Zardari has just made his first major blunder by making a promise to the nation before TV cameras that he did not intend to keep.

tahmed32,

tahmed, Baitullah Mehsud will hang Zardari upside down. Even you don't realize the consequence of this.

I'll post a pic on UP tomorrow from near Peshawar. Watch it. I've run out of threads today.

..if he had said aired his grievances in Bhurbhan rather than making false promises at that time.

This is very well said.

#56 zeemax: How many votes did Mehsud get in the last elections? :-)

In any case, I think the PML is doing a great job of not letting Zardari get away with being "overclever".

#57 thanks.

Anyhoo - if you pakis need any other reason to let this dude go - we let your 90K pows go, so give us one back... quid pro quo...

#53 Posted by tahmed32
“Also I think Zardari has made a huge blunder by making it clear that he never meant to live up to his commitment to restoration of the judges.”

He did not say that. He said that it will be done thru a package. However, that too is a vague promise and I don’t expect any action on that.

Let me be the devil’s advocate here.

Apparently, the coalition and Pakistan are under tremendous pressure from the Pak army and perhaps the US to keep Mush as president. It seems to me that choice is between Mush and the Judges. You bring Judges in, Judges would go after Mush. Annoying both the US and the army and they may act against the parliament. Where do you go from there?
Remember just the other day the EU secretary firmly and publically said that Musharaf will complete his term…Wasn’t that a strong message for the political parties?
Army is dragging its feet on the Baluchistan issue. Akhtar Mangel is still in jail along with thousands of Baloch nationalist. What is important saving Baluchistan or the Judges?

In reality the Judges issue is just a symbolic issue. Three smaller provinces don’t see it as the primary issue. For NWFP the primary issue is the situation in FATA. For Baluchistan the primary issue is the release of Baloch leaders , workers, withdrawing the army from Baluchistan, and the missing persons. For Sindh, it is about jobs, the law and order, and thousands of unresolved issues. Did you read about how thousands of people swarm the secretariat and ministers offices in Karachi everyday for resolution of problems that were shoved under the rug by the previous govt.?

From the PPP pov, any confrontation over the judges’ issue will not help the country. If the govt. is forcibly dissolved, a great opportunity to help the constituents will be lost in every province but Punjab.

There are two groups in the judges’ issue the PMLn and the Lawyers. The whole thing is a setback for them as they were looking for an easy victory and a grand victory parade in Lahore. That did not happen so they are in for a long haul. I think they should move forward with their plans and come out on the streets. Build pressure the govt wouls use that pressure to get a deal from the army.

As I see it, Zaradri failed to convince the army that Judges are needed and Musharaf is not. Not every issue in politics is resolved. Some issues are used for bargaining, some to fight another day and some for getting to some other things. The MLn and the lawyers wanted the judges back to get Musharaf.

Now they need to figure out how to keep pressure on the PPP and the Parliament to restore the judges and bring Musharaf down thru the Supreme Court.

#58 Posted by tahmed32,

Mehsuds don't ask for votes, nor do they care about these. They talk in the language of bullets and bombs. And you'll see whether the lawyers join them or not.

I don't think PML-N will be able to do much either, even though they would not want to. I think eventually they will join the bullet vote as well.

What else can a person do with zardaris and musharrafs?

#61 Posted by HP,

Why're you avoiding stating that the European Union also said the Karachi election was rigged by MQM?

HP,

Who the eff is zardari to decide whether the judges should be restored or not given whatever pressures. This is what the people voted PPP into power for. USA, Army or not. People want Judiciary restored - period.

But he has spilled it. And he too will be hung for that alongwith musharraf ... side by side.

Devil's Advocate HP #61:

1. On What Zardari promised: he never mentioned any package deal in Bhurban. There is no question he made a promise he did not plan to keep.

2. On military/US/EU pressures: This is a poor excuse. The tremendous people's mandate PPP received gives it the legitimacy it needs. If it refuses to exercise it, then it has done nothing less than betray the trust of the people when they voted for it. In stalling on the judges issue (when it could and should have restored them at the same time they were freed) the PPP leadership has lost credibility - the same way ZAB lost credibility when he similarly betrayed the false hopes he created.

3. On provincial issues: Contrary to what you think, the judges issue is one that affects every single pakistan - since it goes at the heart of whether Pakistan will be ruled by law or by strongmen (waderas, ghondas, or military generals). As a practical matter, if waderas and mqm ghoondas are too strongly entrenched in Sindh (as per the Zardari-altaf friendship), if mullahs and tribal rulers are too strongly entrenched in NWFP and Baluchistan, then that is no reason for the panjab to step back on this issue.

Finally, you write: "Now they need to figure out how to keep pressure on the PPP and the Parliament to restore the judges and bring Musharaf down thru the Supreme Court." Agreed. And that is why Nawaz Sharif and PML are now the standard bearers alongside the lawyers on what is nothing less than the Freedom Struggle for Pakistanis.

#62 zeemax: "They talk in the language of bullets and bombs."

however: the pen is mightier than the sword. the mullah may have the guns, but the civil society of Pakistan has God on its side. but dont let that stop you from dreaming of mullahs taking over pakistan.

HP,Zeemax, and Tahmed32
We need to separate the extinguishing aspirations of the lame duck dick traitor from the genuine concerns of the Urdu-speaking citizens of Pakistan. It is obvious that MQM and its absentee strongman in London do not represent the legitimate interests of Karachi or Pakistan.

The people of Pakistan voted overwhelmingly, despite all forms of rigging and pressure by Mushy, for the restoration of true democracy. Urdu speaking people, above all else, are Muslims and Pakistanis first. Any attempt by MQM or Mushy to hijack their interests will backfire.

While Asif Ali Zardari has demonstrated superior statesmanship and diplomacy, he should not squander the goodwill and trust that the people of Pakistan have bestowed up his party and coalition. The very fact that Mushy is President is an insult to democracy, the rule of law, and the image of Pakistan. The dick traitor used a lame duck Parliament to manufacture an outcome that would never have occurred in an honest vote. He had already manipulated the judiciary to cause a favorable outcome for himself. Even the most stupid person can recognize the shenanigans of this buffoon who has stayed on the stage far too long for any audience not to vomit.

The justices must be restored, including the reinstatement of the CJ and then Mushy must be removed, tried, and hanged for his usurpation of power and betrayal of Pakistan. I supported Mushy when I thought he was the least of all evils for Pakistan. I detest Mushy when he is the most obvious evil confronting Pakistan. I supported the MQM when it was struggling for the rights of Karachiites. I am now against the MQM for its support of Mushy and its role as spoiler in the redemocratization of the nation.

#67 *upon his party and not up his party

Re: # 67 salim sahib
You have questioned the questionable intellect of the pakistani populace by elevating the status of Zardari to that of a statesman.Even Machavely would be throwing up in his grave by the induction of Zardari in the hall of statesmen.

treetop #69 {"salim sahib
You have questioned the questionable intellect of the pakistani populace by elevating the status of Zardari to that of a statesman"}

Mr.Top Branch,
I defer to the Theory of Relativity which states that all qualities and vices are relative. In Paki politics, Zardari appears as a statesman. Heck, if Mushy can be President, Zardari can be Mother Teresa.

BTW, Mr. Branch, I do like your style - guerilla warfare at its best. Good luck to you, sir.

Oh Yes! Forgot about the main topic.

Yes, hang the terrorist bastard.

Zeemax, Tahmed,

I watched Zardari interview and I understand what he is saying.
I don't think it really matter whether the judges are restored in 30 or the 60 days.

What surprises me is that the lawyers, who get paid for negotiations and arguing their cases, never asked to see Zardari or the PM or even Nawaz at one place to present the CJ case or to help remove his doubts abt the judiciary.

It is one thing to fight an army general but using the same tactics against the civilians that are willing to talk or negotiate, is not entirely a good way to resolve the issues.

I don't know whether you actually watched the interview or not and I see in the papers that no one reported the most important thing that he said in the interview. He said it quickly but he may be right that there are some elements from the establishment that are trying to create a rift between the PPP, MLn, and the lawyers.

He clearly said what the hurdles are and it is important for him to approach the lawyers to resolve the issue.

I think in the long run lawyers taking the streets would be good. They can really intensify the conflict and might be able to bring out other sections of the population on the streets. A little anarchy may actually be helpful.

#932 Posted by tahir Re: # 918 (carried over):

"Gen Yhaya’s friend was Gen. Rani. She is the grandmother Adnan Sami"

... and the mother (Rani's daughter) is Uroosa Alam, the great English language journalist, and second (occasional?) wife of the Indian Punjab's Chief Minister. Can you believe how far the reach of kanjarpana is?

#72 Posted by HP,

HP, seriously I think Zardari has become a mad megalomaniac very fast. He expressed his contempt for Judiciary, Lawyers, Army, ALL political parties except his own whom he believes he has successfully manipulated and they're all dependent on him and him alone and he on no one, and seems to believe fate has put him in an all-powerful position where he can get back at everyone for jailing him. Politics of revenge. Same thing as his wife, with the only difference that Benazir was taking revenge of her father, and Zardari believes he will take revenge for his wife' murder and his own imprisonment.

... I watched the interview live.

Zee sahib,

You have to give credit to the Punjoos where they deserve it. They know how to live life.

Regards

#76 Posted by majumdar,

You bet they do. The lady in question is a hot number, still!

Zee sahib,

Btw Ms. Alam's first hubby is a FORMER CM of Punjab, not the current incumbent. The said gentleman is the current Maharaja of Patiala and his ancestors (particularly one Maharja Bhupinder Singh) were much famed for their rangeela characters.

Regards

#78 Posted by majumdar,

Yes of-course. Thanks for the correction :)

i had assumed zardari was a feudal buffoon but i heard this interview with him on bbc world service yesterday and, like him or loathe him, the man is extremely eloquent and has a certain charm. His arrogance was breathtaking: his public attempt at charming Jemima Khan's panties off was incredible for its audacity and speaks of a man used to getting his own way. Listen to it here: (Interview by Owen Bennet Jones):

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/programmes/the_interview.shtml

majumdar,

as a panjabi i agree! we r zinda dill alright! ;-)

The man has killed innocent Pakistanis. Every court from the sessions court to the supreme court found the man guilty of murder and terrorism against Pakistanis on our homeland.
This man was using these means to instigate war against Pakistan.
The case has been proven. Hang him!

This is the law of the Land.

#82 by sachasaint

The case has been proven.

Abay if Sarabjit indeed planted those bombs, what was the need for keeping him in prison for 18 years? And even if he is indeed guilty, 18 years is punishment enough. That's what we're saying, and even Nawaz Sharif seems to have joined in the chorus along with Burney to get the man released, even if as a quid pro quo.

apparently the guy is going to live a for a few days more

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7372536.stm
06:48 GMT, Tuesday, 29 April 2008 07:48 UK

Hanging of Indian 'spy' deferred

The real reason for all this niceness is a 2600Km long Metallic Garland which Pakistan wants to put around its neck - which will give it some money and maybe trade as well.

Oh, BTW Ahmadinejad is visiting delhi soon.

This is called blackmail is everyday parlance. Let us see what happens next?

I read this article in Daily Times. The journo of Pakistan is making a case of Sarabjit's release with a rider and that sounds very reasonable.

The person who kept the ball rolling is Ansar Burney even tho he's now labelled as an Indian agent. If the generation of Kuldeep Nayyars is fading but the spirit of goodwill living thru the ppl of Burney-genre.

India owes an apology to Pakistan not for the 'killing' of Khalid but the 'death' of the same coz he died in India’s custody. So India shud apologise officially.

The art of spying is as old as the history of kingships but Indians seem to depend on poor, gullible farmers, soldiers for espionage. The art of spying is now hi-tech but India's spies are of the breed of bygone era.

This drama of holding each other's men as trophies is the baggage of history and ppl like Burney are trying to undo this mindset but the entrenched interests are trying their best to keep their hands busy.

++

India has of late set in motion a series of contacts with Pakistan and Pakistan on its part - thru the new govt - is making right sounds that shud lead to eventual release of not only Sarabjit but hundreds of such Indian men in Pak jails. The most disgusting thing abt India is that it's tight-lipped as well as moving slow on reciprocation.

Re: # 85
pakis standereds are little higher,they like to blackmail U.S. not a pauper india.

Re: # 87 precisely - if we take the doctrine enunciated by Urstruly so effectively here on chowk sometime back (in the after math of the nuke blasts) then the US is the one being blackmailed here.

I would have thought sitting on the treetops you would get a better view of the land. Maybethe rarified atm and lack of xygen.....;)

#87 by treetop

pakis standereds are little higher,they like to blackmail U.S. not a pauper india.

Compared to Pakistan, India still comes out looking richer.

Dash,

Just the other day Zee sahib was mentioning that the Pakis had the US by their balls.

Regards

Re: # 87
Tree...
They want to blackmail US...

Ans: Is it so? I think the reverse...the famous Richard Armitage threat ( "...back to stone age". Anyhow Pak is already in 7th century. It does not make much damage) and Pak owner ( General+reformer+president+....) brought to the knees...

I asked eklavy saab that zeemax munafiq saab says he has had sex recently with women in muscat. I say that is wrong but eklavy saab say it is ok as the girls had good time too.

i ask as Islam stops us from comitting "zina" why it is ok for zeemax to have sex and not others saab?

this is what zeemax saab says
{"Yaar forget it. I just fucked half a dozen hindoo wenches in three holes each last week in Bahrain, Dubai and Muscat. This idiot just wants one Muslim right? So all I'm saying is go ahead and do it."}

this is the conversation with eklavy saab that i had and then he did not reply to,

eklavy saab,

the question was not about what individuals got out saab

question is about moral value saab

for example, is it ok saab if i have sex with zeemax's sister saab without marrying her saab?

as long as she has good time saab and i guarantee that saab

is zeemax saab happy about that saab? you should check with him saab

what is good for him saab is goo for me saab

then he should not bring Quran e Majid into this saab as Quran e Majid clearly talks of this as a moral issue saab and not just individual matter of having good time saab

maybe zeemax saab can reply as i want to make sex with his sister and if i can go ahead or not saab

all i want to know saab if it is ok for zeemax to drink alcohol and have sex outside marriage then why cannot the ordinary man and woman in my country.

there seem to be double standards, no??

HP#72 By trying to play games with the restoration of the judges, zardari has indicated the same lack of concern for the rule of law as musharraf. By reneging on his promise at Bhurban, zardari has indicated the same lack of concern for his personal integrity as musharraf. He has not yet fully demonstrated the personal vanity of musharraf, but has shown indications that he is of the same mold here as well.

As for the "compromises" you say zardari is making, these are the same unprincipled "compromises" that musharraf made when he made "deals" with mullah fazloo.

These weaknesses on the part of musharraf have cost the nation heavily, and the same weaknesses on the part of zardari are costing the nation even more.

It is no longer the "thin line" of lawyers alone that is fighting for save Pakistan now. The panjab government is in place, and nawaz sharif and the rest of PML have been firm on this issue. The frontier government is in place, and wali khan and the rest of ANP is fully supportive of PML on this central issue.

Salim #67 we are basically on the same page here. The rule of law is the paramount and common interest for all Pakistanis. because only then is any kind of economic progress or civilized life possible. If ever there was an issue where all Pakistanis - regardless of ethnicity - need to stand united it is on this issue of the rule of law.

the year was 2001 and pak economy was in shambles the forex reserves had dwindled to paltry 400m dollars,it was becoming increasingly difficult for pak to pay its debt inst.pakistan was on the verge of bankruptcy,and then boom 9/11 happens all the restrictions are lifted,and money starts pouring from all corners and within 6 months pak forex reserves shoot up to 12 billion dollars.Just for alowing US to use the airspace pakistan collected 7 billion.WAS THIS JUST A COINCIDENCE?
Who are talaibans and alqaida? who was the mastermind behind 9/11and who was pulling thier strings?think about it.
who stood to gain from this surreal drama?
dear indian friends do not under estimate the adventurous spirit of pakistan, when cornered pakistan is capable of doing anything.BEWARE.

#93tahmed writes "By trying to play games with the restoration of the judges, zardari has indicated the same lack of concern for the rule of law as musharraf. ...As for the "compromises" you say zardari is making, these are the same unprincipled "compromises" that musharraf made when he made "deals" with mullah fazloo."

This guy is as clueless as a lost tourist from tokyo lost Cabrini Greens in Chicago. Best get your ass together and run off before you get caught in some crossfire fool. The ONLY compromise Musharraf made was with the devil itself, the US elite and that put the entire nation onto this destructive path, never forget that, second, powers bigger than Zardari are making him waffle, nor is he a meglomaniac as Zee suggest (he wrote "HP, seriously I think Zardari has become a mad megalomaniac very fast"), rather he has toned down his maniacal nature, he is a mere peon who was promised a trend breaking political role by the US after they got rid of his wife, the US now wants to incorporate the political into the power equation with the military to a greater extent than before, that is why you see his railing against this and that, in the end as the old saying goes, "Actions speak much louder than words", he will never go against the military, never against the structure of power that the US wants, the restoration of judges, removal of the illegal judges and the "rule of people's law"- not the US BS, is what will set a bad precident for the US and its BS in Pakistan. That is the only reason why this fool is waffling, they wont allow it. You do not need packages to undo what was against the law to begin with, and you don't need waffling and the PM does not need the go ahead by the party chief feudal thug in order to do the right thing or he is violating his own oath- comprendey now? And the sob excrement of the army, Musharraf should face a carried out by the state, public execution and nothing less for what he did with the nation, but is that going to happen? This fool tahmed will deliberately mask the higher powers that regardless of the rhetoric of one side or the other determine affairs of consequence in Pakistan. Restore the judges, rattle the structures of power and we'll have martial law at the very least, with new elections and a Q victory forthcoming......now carry on tahmed with the "rule of law" BS

Correction: This guy is as clueless as a (lost) tourist from tokyo lost in Chicago's Cabrini Greens

If I am incoherent sometimes it is because my link with the (BS) matrix was severed after I discovered the "real world", and when I try talking to those deeply immersed in it and in their language, it sounds incoherent to them....in other words in their inverted reality the schizophrenics, the members of the 'mass society' think that those in the real world, the very few of us are the sick ones...................

#40 Zee writes "and a major power is involved in her murder.."

Check my ilog posted on the day she was butchered...

The US elite gave the go-ahead to the Pakistan army thugs to kill Benazir, arranged in no little part by Zardari and the info minister and others who are going to spill the beans sooner or later...The reason: the center of the farcial WOT is now shifting from Iraq towards Pakistan, and it will involve geographical restructuring of the area as well, the mullah will be injected with super strength testosterone for the purpose.....

later...

MASADI Sahib;
We cannot take seriously the revelations bestowed upon you
untill you declare your prophethood.

#90 Posted by majumdar,

Yes. How wrong I was. HP and Masadi were right.

If he was not involved in murder then he should be

released. This Indo-Pak animosity has already created

a fountain of misery....

#99 Posted by masadi,

But I had always stated that Benazir was not killed by any suicide bomber or shooter but someone in a window far away with a high powered rifle. Rest were all decoys.

ras #104 greetings. I think simply banning the death penalty, as is being proposed, is the best option. So at least there is hope for correction in case of a miscarriage of justice - as happens everywhere, but particularly more so in developing countries.

tahmed writes "there is hope for correction in case of a miscarriage of justice - as happens everywhere, but particularly more so in developing countries..."

Shut up you ignoramus regarding the "developing countries". Nowhere in the developing world are a third of the young males of a particular race involved as offenders with the criminal justice system, as in the USA. Nowhere in the developing world is rape the least convicted of all crimes, nowhere in the developing world is the per capita prison rate as high as it is (in the USA) and nowhere in the developing world is there eleven to one disparity in implementation of the death penalty as the USA

(quote)

Death By Discrimination:Skin colour influences who lives and dies in the US judicial system Amnesty International

"Today, whether you live or die in the USA as a result of your crimes appears to be largely determined by the colour of your own skin and the race of your victim," said Pierre Sané, Amnesty International's Secretary General, during the launch of the report, adding that "the Federal authorities are unwilling to act because of the popularity of the death penalty." ...........
The odds of a death sentence in cases in which blacks killed whites has been shown to be as much as 11 times higher than in the murder of a black victim by a white person."

http://asiapacific.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR510751999?op en&of=ENG-392


----

treetop writes "MASADI Sahib;
We cannot take seriously the revelations bestowed upon you
untill you declare your prophethood. "

Humans other than prophets are bestowed with the power of analysis, other than the peons of the West whose intelligence goes to the extent of monkey see what bigger monkey (the white elite) do. If you cannot guage this from your own pathetic condition, look at the "ideal type" peon of the West, tahmed, the poor fool has spent his entire life trying to defend lies and because of a few $$ which his masters throw at him when he whelps, he has sold his nation, his soul and his family for their worship.....read his posts and learn what you are fast becomming fool

#105, that might be

It is not a good idea to hang some one for reasearch and analysis -- same way to beat someone to death for watching a cricket match without a visa.

What a sadistic godforsaken subcontinent -- plague be on both houses.