I Spy Hindutva

Re: # 95; Selim sahib,
I have no issues with you and would like to keep it that way, if it is all the same to you.

Just to Clear the Record, if it is being kept somewhere, that is:

1 - I donot go to mosque/church etc and openly talk about the same issues I have now and again raised here

2 - I donot (again openly) observe, even under false pretences, the month of Ramadan; if I am not reminded, I some times don't even realise it is upon us!

3 - I really DONOT believe in the 'super-natural' sky fairy people label as God (be it of arabic/abrahamic or any other variety); my friends and associates know this and the subject comes up very infrequently anyway
My family are aware of this too and after years, they have learnt to live with it

4 - I, generally donot drink; mostly personal choice and I don't get moralistic about others choosing to do so. Socially, I don't mind a glass of wine, now and again; This is well known to my family as well as friends of the religious variety

5 - The "burger' types, if you read my posts here, I find to be the most irritating too; I am not one of them and resent being generalised into a category, any category; I have had a standard mainstream middle class upbringing, nothing special

6 - my parents are practicing and devout muslims; if there are any 'pretences' involved, it is purely 'going along' with them at times to keep the peace; my siblings are not deeply religious (save my brother - not too different from Zeemax actually!! I have said that before)

7 - for the record, I donot celebrate christmas either, my main problem with it is the religious connotations involved; I'd celebrate Eid, again for cultural solidarity with friends and family; I have said that before as well

8 - the question of 'pretend muslim' only arises in the context of a non-muslim asking about my background; it is easier to answer yes, at least initially when you don't know them; When they get to know me, they figure it out invariably as I make no secrets of my lack of belief in sky fairies etc

You are right; who cares!!

Obviously you do for one!

#59
Tahmed Sir,

I agree with most of your post too. Don't mean to divert from the important topic of this article.

All I am waiting for is for Nawaz Sharif to once condemn unequivically the extremists. I get all the TV-channels here, and there's the Internet; and if he has, I must have missed it. I think PML-N is our BJP; they want the cake and eat it too.

Of course, rule of law is essential.

The term Islamo-fascists means different things to different people. To me the noun is fascist, the qualifier is Islamo. Hatred and anger born out of a feeling of 'impotence' is the overriding quality of these hotheads. In this case they appropriate the religion as a justification. These very people would be the same no matter what their religion.

Vaibhav, the dharmic requirement is not to see each other as 'problems' but to recognize real differences across religious ideologies and across different large groups of people adhering to those ideologies.

Re: # 97;

as for the term "kaala angrez";

I have a brownish complexion, often generalised as 'kaala' by many; I was born in England which technically makes me "an angrez";

I hope that clarifies all this once and for all.


Kaal Chakkerbaz mian,

same applies; I'd like these speculations to stop now and let us move on. I'd like to be able to interact here and voice 'my personality' exactly how it is without having to give lengthy, unnecessay explanations everytime.

Not that much to ask, is it?

1Safe sahib #98: Actions speak louder than words - and Nawaz Sharif has demonstrated his commitment to the restoration of the Chief Justice. The rule of law is the enemy of the lawless - and extremists are nothing if not lawless. So, I think fears of the extremists coming to power under a democratic government (PML or PPP, it doesnt matter) are not justified.

Thus, to use the example of BJP that you mention - India, which of course unlike Pakistan has its Consitution intact from any attacks by its own generals, even when in power BJP's extremists were kept in check. The Islamic government in Turkey is another example. So, even if PML is considered right wing, that does not matter given its commitment to the rule of law.

Fascism in Pakistan is the result of military interference in politics - the ethnic fascists of mqm and the islamic fascists of taliban were both fathered by Zia, and both have been nurtured by Musharraf as part of his strategy of retaining his illegal position.

Re: # 92

Salim Bhai,

Angrez aren't that bad. Yesterday, on NDTV, a show with Shane Warne, McGrath and a few Indians was on air. You know the amount of effort the Indians took to make the whites feel loved, these shameless creatures would abhor if the shadows of low castes happen to touch theirs.

Re: # 95

Selim Saab,

Thanks for your delving on atheists. Do tell us Saab if you have come across carnages in the name of atheism.

Atheist is actually a wrong label, an atheist is born out of love for the fellow human beings whereas people becoming pious after coming to hate all things human.

Nice to read what Vaibhav Jain has to say. Here are a few quotes from another Jain.

Quotes from Shri Girilal Jain

"It is sheer dishonesty or naivete to suggest, as is being widely suggested these days, that Hinduism can admit of theocracy. That is a Muslim privilege which no one else can appropriate.".
"Such is the grip of the misrepresentation of Hindutva in anti-Muslim terms that (even) its proponents, including some leaders of the Bhartiya Janata Party, themselves, speak of it defensively".
"The BJP is not a communal party; it cannot be, for the simple reason that Hindus have never been, and are not, a community in the accepted sense of the term. They represent an ancient civilization not known either to draw a boundary between the faithful and the faithless, the blessed and the damned, or to engage in heresy hunting and its counterpart, persecution of other faiths. Hindus are, in western terms, pagans."
"Unlike Islamic fundamentalists, the BJP does not claim to possess a blueprint. It shall have to struggle to evolve an Indian approach to modern problems."

Re: # 103

Thanks for your delving on atheists. Do tell us Saab if you have come across carnages in the name of atheism.

Specifically the slaughter of Orthodox priests by Commies in Russia in 1917. Of course they were counter revolutionaries so it does not matter.

Specifically the slaughter of Buddisht and Taoist monks by Mao. Of course they were counter revolutionaries so it does not matter.

Specifically the slaughter of Buddisht monks and Hindu Priests by Pol Pot. Of course they were counter revolutionaries so it does not matter.

Specifically the slaughter of Anand Margis by the CPM. Of course they were counter revolutionaries so it does not matter.

In fact so long as the first 3 of the 4M's slaughter people there is no problem with the 4thM.

The problem with Hindutva is the RSS and its failure to define a coherent ideology. Maybe we should convert all Hindus to the Khalsa. The coherent ideology will come from the Adi and Dasham Granths.

This is not to say that both are perfect but is as close to perfect that we will get to define a concrete religous ideology that can be used politically.

Many years ago we had suggested to the VHP for a true Hindu ideology but unfortunately it went over their head.

Their ideology is based on Neti, Neti no this not this. No wonder one who is not muslai, isai, yahoodi or parsi is Hindu.

Whither Hindutva?

By the way those confused may read Shri Sita Ram Goelji's magnum opus How I became a Hindu at Bharat Vani.

Jo Bole So Nihal
Sat Sri Akal
Sanatani

Re: # 102

Vengat,

For a commie sometimes you do speak the truth.

It reminds me of a trip to a village in west UP when I told the Brahmins. Rajputs, Jats and Gujjars there that well as an outsider I saw no difference in their hygeine level and that of the Chamars and other Dalits in that village with the exception that the Dalits at least did a lot to clean up will they only spread dirt and if the Chamars were untouchables so were they in my eyes.

It nearly got me lynched but the message went home. The marriage dinner was eaten with the Dalits also sitting down with all in the same line instead of 2 rows back except they had to lift and clean their plates after the same.

But it was profoundly enlightening to one's thought process. Why I did not get lynched and why were they allowed to sit down. That was because there was some groundswell of support for such a move amongst the locals but lacked courage to do so openly, when I acted as a catalyst they coalesced behind me.

But sorry to say (it is of course second hand info told by a friend) from what I have heard in TN in either the Vanniyar or the Thevar belt to do so would be suicide.

Santani

Also if we have to fight this sort of casteism (I believe in caste but not caste pride and esp not one that is detrimental to any other caste) it has to be done by religous or cultural groups and not by so-called progressives.

But unfortunately Hindus never understand enlightned self interest.

Sanatani

Re: # 107
"I believe in caste but not caste pride and esp not one that is detrimental to any other caste"

Sanatani,

I think I share this.We need the caste system but not the vertical arrangement and no caste should equate to any particular profession.

Vanniyars and Thevars are glorified inappropriately. I think in todays Tamilnadu, nobody would dare to prick the dalit pride. Dalits have nothing to lose vis-a-vis thevars and vanniyars. Tamil dalits cannot be subjugated by violence like their 'rest-of-india' counterparts. Its been quite some time since the last major caste violence took place. It was between the dalits and the rest of the castes with thevars leading in front. Thevars' side suffered most of the casualties and many don't openly admits to the truth.

Thevar side suffered most of the casualties and many don't openly admit to the truth.

"it has to be done by religous or cultural groups and not by so-called progressives."

I have no problem in the religious or cultural groups fighting the casteism, once they start doing it the so called progressives would keep quite. Happy now?

Eklavya,

For an atheist, even if he is a Muslim, he will not be worried about semantics. Call him an apostate, he will say, "exactly".

It requires more courage and conviction to be a Muslim apostate than a Hindu one...and lots of reasoning ability too...

Believers know that if you call an atheist an apostate then it would mean a far damaging contrasting truth they would have to confront with.

Inscription on an actual tombstone: "Here Lies an Athiest. All wraped up and nowhere to go".

This may be irrelevant to the highly charged discussion going on here but I thought it'd be nice to throw in.