Can the Judiciary Save the Coalition?

one more thing:

HP writes "One the one hand you claim that “Judicial Crisis pre November was manufactured by the Pak Army/US in order to get Musharraf out of his uniform” and then you turn around and propose that the same judge would be people’s representative after the restoration. That does not work."

Actually it did work, you saw as empirical fact that the judges after siding with Musharraf by holding objections against his elections "unmanageable" were later under tremendous pressure by the lawyers movement and were willing to reconsider which prompted Musharraf's Nov emergency. If that period produced such pressure to change an institution's historical role, prompting the general (then) to do what he did (his motive was also to save his uniform then, but the Americans directly got it off), imagine what the pressure would be on a restored judiciary, restored by civilian dictate to do the right thing. I believe my points are very solid...

g'night

HP writes "Do you think this crisis will be over if by any stretch of imagination, the Judges are restored? I don’t think so. ....The US has not dropped its plan in the mideast or against Iran. Sometimes you need to look at the bigger picture. How could the restoration of judges be the biggest issue in the country when Baluchistan and Parts of NWFP could fall off the country’s map in a very short period of time?"

You know we agree on these things regarding the US, NWFP and Baluchistan, that said, the "Pakistan (or Islam) khatray mey hai" defense has been used by the Pak Army to do all kinds of BS in this country. Why I consider the restoration of the judges to be the priority #1 in Pakistan these days (for the sake of its people) is as I stated, the judiciary that a military dictator had to remove using his uniform, if it is allowed back by civilian dictate sets a very bad precident for the military, it further breaks with the past role of this institution as a legitimizer of military rule. The CJ might be an AH who was supported by the military/US to take the uniform off musharraf, and also the lawyers movement was financed and organized by them but it blossomed into something that they had not expected, a genuine political movement, restoration of the judiciary is of paramount importance for the civilian leadership otherwise they are fast becomming another Q that will strengthen the military and weaken the political parties in this country, as I explained in my post.

Now, the US might want to break up Pakistan but its people are already broken, the structure needs to change to unbreak them, and if the judiciary is not restored NOTHING changes, period while restoring them adds not only legitimacy to the civilian leadership with the people, it fragements the absolute power of the military in political affairs which btw is unprecidented (therefore it sets a bad precident for the military)in the history of Pakistani politics under the military, a defeat for the military by the civilan leadership of this country- that is why it is not being allowed. If it was so benign to the military and the US role in our affairs, they would have gladly allowed it but they are resisting it- proof that what I say is correct.

Further, make no mistakes about it the last victory in these struggles will be of the people (as ZAB also stated btw), the military will not give up without a fight, there will be bloodshed which will eventually fragment the military itself, short of that there will be no change, this prinicpled stand on restoration of the judges (and it is not about the individual) is a step in the right direction towards challenging the military and defeating it. You should be foremost in supporting it. On the other hand, leaving it be, transforming PPP and N into the new PML-Q will not only destroy those two as political movements, they will keep the status quo going. Regardless of what happens, the US will go ahead with its plans and our best hope is not in the Pakistan Army saving us from them, the best bet are the people and a democratic leadership that is not possible without the restoration of the judiciary at present. You need to reevaluate your stand on this...

p.s by bad precident I did not mean the military would have some conscience, they would like I said gladly sacrifice the last among us for their perversions, it would set a bad precident by making it clear to all that they can be defeated by the civilian leadership, the people will do the rest like I said, on the streets...........

Urstruly
I will respond to your post in a bit.

#12 Posted by majumdar
“So why dont you spell out the issues and also the (alternative) solution for us plebs?”

Dada,
Sure. My book will be published in 2013 and will have all the details for you. Don’t forget to buy it when it hits the market.

Regards.

#13 Posted by masadi
“the restoration of these judges who were removed unconstitutionally sets a very bad precedent for military rule,”
“If this country has to change the judges MUST be restored immediately, the restored court will be beholden more to the people”

It will be interesting to see how you define bad precedent.

This military has been through many bad precedents and that did not embarrass them so why do you expect this will? Sounds like you are assuming that the military has some conscience and it has a moral code that that forces it to not revisit a situation which set some bad precedent for them. This is a mercenary army (your words, not mine. Though I agree). This is not a National army. This army and its Generals will do whatever is required of them.

One the one hand you claim that “Judicial Crisis pre November was manufactured by the Pak Army/US in order to get Musharraf out of his uniform” and then you turn around and propose that the same judge would be people’s representative after the restoration. That does not work.

Asadi, the Judge did not do it for the people in Jan-Mar, 07, nor is he going to do it again. There is a major power struggle in Pakistan and he is a part of that. He is beholden to a certain group which has ties in the army. He played a role assigned to him successfully and is to be commended for that. Often the power struggles between the groups bring unintended results for the people. Pakistani may benefit from this struggle but at this time it is clear that the Judge crisis is being used for creating a permanent state of uncertainty in the country.

Do you think this crisis will be over if by any stretch of imagination, the Judges are restored? I don’t think so. Once (or if) they are in the court, the assigned job would be to go after Musharaf and the resulting law suits will keep the country occupied until another crisis is manufactured.

Neither the politicians, nor the army have any solutions for the mounting problems in Pakistan. The game is to perpetuate the crises and keep people distracted over some unreal issues. As the country drifts in to a sea of indecision, the weak parts of the country would be the hunting grounds for the US. The US has not dropped its plan in the mideast or against Iran. Sometimes you need to look at the bigger picture. How could the restoration of judges be the biggest issue in the country when Baluchistan and Parts of NWFP could fall off the country’s map in a very short period of time?

The Judges will not be restored thus plunging the country in to another crisis. The army has not given up any power in the country. Remember, all politics in Pakistan is still the army’s politics and now they have just co-opted another group in the power. The only hope is that somehow the other Pakistani people see the game but the economic crisis in the country will also continue to make sure that they can only worry abt atta daal and nothing else.

Re: # 17

So now that wardi is off mushraf, why can't amrika restore back the judges, who did such an important work for them? Yes it is true that amrika has its finger in every important ass in pakistan but thinking that pakistan is nothing but assholes is a bit of a stretch.

Your thesis is something like a question someone asked once. "Describe the easiest way to kill a mosquito?". Someone wrote back the answer, "the easiest way to kill a mosquito is to first grab it; then hold one of its arm up and tickle under its arm. When mosquito will open its mouth for a laugh, pour DDT in its mouth".

in addition to #13, I would like to add that the lawyers movement was the unintended consequence of the judicial crisis farce backed and started by the Pak Army/US to get the wardi off Musharraf, this unintended consequence has blossomed as the only viable political movement in this country. Another uninteded consequence of the farcial, US/Pak Army elections is the fact that Nawaz Sharif has a personal axe to grind against Musharraf, for the purpose of which he is taking the just and correct stand on the judges- the people and the lawyers should encourage this (personal enmity) to its logical conclusion- that the Army/US is resisting the restoration of judges proves like I said that this would set a really bad precident for military rule in Pakistan, and would be a unique step towards damaging army rule, it must be accomplished as priority number 1- regardless of the thuggish personality of the deposed CJ. Otherwise the new Q in the making (PPP and N), will both be destroyed as political forces in the country- the people gave them a clear mandate and now these "incorporated to salvage the military" parties will lose their base of support, the military will emerge from this stronger than ever, and other than the lawyer's movement the people of Pakistan will have no support. That is why the restoration of the judges is priority #1 in order to salvage the nation and save its people from poverty, illiteracy and injustice.

"The take over using their guns..."

should be read as " It is the army that takes over using their guns basing their ...."

Re: # 9 HP

"Now Do you want the Judiciary to have the same power to bring down governments for perceived or real corruption? That is empowering another institution to act like the army has been acting for the last 50 years."


That is where you are wrong. The judicial process does not and cannot work on perceptions (of corruption), it works on hard evidence, witness, and letter of the law. The takes over using their guns basing their cases on perceived corruption. Isn't it true that Army ultimately had to eat their own excrement thru National Reconciliation Ordnance? This is difference between the two processes.

Now take the example of the case of Steel Mill. The CJ did not interfere in the deal thru a suo moto action, but more than one petitions were filed by citizens. Regardless of political motivations, it is the constitutional right of a citizen to challenge any action of a government in SC. The case was still being debated in SC, but the deal itself was so shameless, so blatant, and so rancid that the dictator and his minions had to back off. If they were right then why did they back off?

But had this case gone through the SC to its end. There is nothing in the law to prevent someone to sell something cheap - even if it is a state asset being sold by the state. The CJ could not have prevented this deal by application of law, where there is none. So it is just hogwash that "judiciary went out of control" propagated by dictator and his corrupt minions. As a citizen of Pakistan we must beware of these zaleel tactics of these shameless haramis.

later......

I disagree with HP on this one. The most important issue facing the country today is the restoration of the Judges. As you all might recall, I had stated clearly that the Judicial Crisis pre November was manufactured by the Pak Army/US in order to get Musharraf out of his uniform, it produced the unintended consequence of the lawyers movement. A movement that does not see eye to eye with the judges, so you would recall that when they termed the objection against Musharraf's presidential election "umnanageable", the lawyers took to the streets to protest this same CJ. Now the CJ is a thug but the restoration of these judges who were removed unconstitutionally sets a very bad precident for military rule, moreso than any alliance that the PPP or N can come up with, which thus far has been a molding of them into the Q image, to legitimize the farce of the elections. If this country has to change the judges MUST be restored immediately, the restored court will be beholden more to the people and the lawyers than to the military if such a precident is set, that is guaranteed, therefore there is no issue facing the country at this moment that is more important than this otherwise the status quo will ensure the repeat of what happened in the past and these new civilian leaders will return to their thuggish ways. If PPP prevents this, the N should resign wholesale from the parliament and join the lawyers movement and other assorted boycotters to challenge this farcial elections of Feb and to restore the constitution which de-facto is still in abeyance, and will be until and unless the judges are restored and the thug sitting in the presidential chair is removed and hanged

HP sain,

(Now if you had known the issues, you would not have phrased the solutions so simply.)

So why dont you spell out the issues and also the (alternative) solution for us plebs?

Regards

Thanks to the NROed Zardari the question is not, can the judiciary save the coalition -- but can the coalition save the Judiciary?

Dada,
1. Truce with the disaffected elements.
OR
2. Military victory over them."

Now if you had known the issues, you would not have phrased the solutions so simply.

#8 Posted by Urstruly
“The term judicial activism applies when a certain judiciary tries to interpret constitution to favor a particular ideological point of view.”

Judicial activism is a term used by political commentators to describe a tendency by judges to consider outcomes, attitudinal preferences, and other public policy issues in interpreting applicable existing law.

So it is not restricted to just the constitution alone.

“It only means that SC judges started doing their job honestly for which they had taken oath. Cheif Justices interference in the matters of Steel Mill and disappeared citizens was not judicial activism either.”

So they woke up after eight years and that is fine. They can wake up whenever they want but it is judicial activism when there is no precedence of the Supreme Court involvement at this level. Just take the sua moto actions in 2007 vs. in 2006, 05, 04 or even before that in the history of the Supreme Court and you would know.

Don’t get me wrong. I am not opposed to what the CJ did to the army dictatorship because that did open some avenues for protests against the army rule. He is to be commended for putting his life, his job, and his position at risk when the army appeared to be completely in control and it seemed that no one could challenge the then crypto-maniac and now the Paktrash archetype Musharaf.

However, denying that the CJ’s motives were not political would be like being too naïve to know how political games in Pakistan are played. Just remember that before him, Justice Sajjad tried to play the same game with Nawaz circa 1998 before that Justice Sajjad brought down his benefactor Benazir and Zardari who made Sajjad the CJ.

“Yes the actions of CJ Sahib would have brought down even a democratically elected government if that government was that corrupt, inefficient, and lawless as the current Martial Law for the past 8 years is”

Who decides that in a democratic set up? It is something called elections and the Parliament. The SC may take up cases of corruption as they are referred to it or occasionally may take Suo Moto actions. That is what the danger is when you have an out of control judiciary. If we look at Pak’s history, every army general on assuming powers blamed the corruption in the civilian governments for the coup. Now Do you want the Judiciary to have the same power to bring down governments for perceived or real corruption? That is empowering another institution to act like the army has been acting for the last 50 years.

You see restoring the Judges is important because they were sacked illegally and unconstitutionally. Redressing that may be a priority but I think it is not huge enough to derail whatever little gains have been made. The highest priory should be FATA and Baluchistan. These two issues are directly related with the state and its remaining one entity or multiple entities.

The Pak army is a criminal enterprise and entrenched for the last 50 years. Fighting it requires lots of patience and enormous will along with the constant public support.

You see the fight in Pakistan is not with Musharaf, it is with the army. He is just one face of the army. The US is another interested party in Pakistan and they hold not only most of the aces but also guns and planes. Restoring the judges will not change a thing for the army or the US. And you know it.

Re: # 4 HP

Your thesis about judicial activism of CJ is wrong. The term judicial activism applies when a certain judiciary tries to interpret constitution to favor a particular ideological point of view. There was no such effort by judiciary when Choudry sahib was acctive as Chief Justice. When he took over as the Chief Justice, there were over 40,000 cases pending in SC. With in a short period of time of merely 2 years, under the leadership of Chowdry Sahib SC was able to close 37,000+ cases. During that period SC took suo moto action on 7000 cases in addition and delivered justice. This is unprecedented in the history of judiciary in the world.

It only means that SC judges started doing their job honestly for which they had taken oath. Cheif Justices interference in the matters of Steel Mill and disappeared citizens was not judicial activism either. He was merely doing his job. The constitution of Pakistan before foujis fukked it provides gurantees to the citizens of Pakistan. How making sure that those gurantees are properly executed, judicial activism? Yes the actions of CJ Sahib would have brought down even a democratically elected government if that government was that corrupt, inefficient, and lawless as the current Martial Law for the past 8 years is.