Mohajirs Are People Too

Re: # 146
Lets talk about facts and people who dont know what they are talking about should either research first or hold their peace and let others exist in peace.
The Sindh University that is being touted about as having been discriminated and shut down from Karachi was not a teaching institution, it was only an examining authority and as such did nothing to educate people while it was in the business of certifying people.
The University of Sindh, the second oldest University of the country, was constituted under the University of Sindh Act. No. XVII of 1947 passed by the Legislative Assembly of Sindh. The Act was subsequently revised and modified in 1961 and later. The Act of 1972 under which the University is presently functioning provided for greater autonomy and representation of teachers.

From 1947 to 1951 the University functioned solely as an examining body. However, after its relocation in Hyderabad in 1951, it started functioning as a teaching university in pursuit of fulfillment of its charter and mission to disseminate knowledge; the first teaching department, namely, Department of Education, raised to the status of Faculty of Education later, was started in view of the great dearth of trained teachers in the country. The departments of basic Science disciplines as well as other departments on humanities side were added by mid fifties.(This is straight from the mouth of the horse and posted on the University of Sindh website which you can reach at http://www.usindh.edu.pk/introduction.html) go check it out.
Stop and ponder before spreading rumors. What you appear to be relying on comes from an "anti-Pakistan group" who manipulate every story be it real or a fix of their heads which they want to use to further their cause which is to break Pakistan, therefore, its your choice as to what you indulge with.
Jeay Sindh(and the Sindh Hari group) does not even have a moral support from real Sindhi ethnics while the echoes of their message to break Pakistan can be heard amplified through messages in this forum, and I hope it is unintentional since it constitutes "treason".

For your information Sindhis were not in the business of donkey carting as you assume, in the early days of Pakistan they either used two wheeler push carts that they manually used for hauling and the other means were camel carts, and bullock carts, as such your attempts to uselessly rubbing against the donkeys is no more than an attempt to inflame those who are not aware of the history.
Here is there charter & manifesto, one who subscribes to such rhetoric is consequently subscribing to treason against Pakistan:
Aims and Objects of Jeay Sindh Qaumi Mahaz
Aims & Objects (a)
1. Basic points of struggle of JSQM will be Nationalism, secularism, democracy & Socialism.
2. JSQM believes in national harmony and national struggle for the independence of Motherland Sindh "(Political, cultural, economical & geographical) independence."
3. The manifesto of JSQM is free state from, colonial, racism, religious, sexual and all other oppressing.
4. JSQM believes that lower & middle class is actual and active strength.
5. JSQM considers patriotic rising capitalist and "land lord class" as its partener.
6. JSQM considers Sain GM Syed as leader of national independence of Sindh and His program and idea of independent Sindh, global caolation, global peace and development of human being will be spread and practiced under the name of "Paigham-e-Syed", "G.M'ism" & "Idea of Syed".
7. JSQM will utilize all national resources to develop and make safe the national development and self respect in independent Sindhu Desh.
Aims & Objects (b)
1. JSQM supports the alliance of all liberal and “anti Punjab-dominance� parties.
2. JSQM considers Punjab and its foreigner associates as national foe while struggling.
3. JSQM considers all nations and movements as their associates who are fighting under the concept of latest nationalism.
4. JSQM will activate and aware Sindhi nation and will struggle for the �national right of independence of SindhuDesh.�
5. JSQM will struggle for the freedom and existence of SindhuDesh Worldwide.
6. JSQM will take part in the activities of international peace, humanity and the struggles of independence of oppressed nations around the globe.
7. JSQM will consider Sain G M Syed's no-terrorism (Peaceful) idea as central idea for the freedom, development and defense of SindhuDesh, and will utilize each & every way, power and strategy of struggle to achieve the objective.
This is a published document by the JSQM.

About Liaqat depiction of Sindhis as Donkey Cart Walas..

here is another narration of it....


http://yangtze.cs.uiuc.edu/~jamali/sindh/res/documents/moh-sindhi.ht ml


Read para 6 .



"``Two years after Karachi's separation (1948), Sindh University was shifted from Karachi, along with its name to Hyderabad to serve the camel cart and donkey cart culture of the natives of Sindh as Liaqat Ali Khan had chosen to characterize it earlier, during exchange of friendly pleasantries "


though you can argue , this is a Baised Sindhi site, and it does not mention KHORO as the narrater...
none the less, this shows, how Sindhis Preceive themselves to be treated by the Elite Urdu Walas.

Khoro's Quote was somewhere on a Sindhi site , and I am still searching for it...

and for population transfer


Independence and population exchanges
Massive population exchanges occurred between the two newly-formed states in the months immediately following Partition. Once the lines were established,[b] about 14.5 million [/b] people crossed the borders to what they hoped was the relative safety of religious majority. Based on 1951 Census of displaced persons, 7,226,000 Muslims went to Pakistan from India while 7,249,000 Hindus and Sikhs moved to India from Pakistan immediately after partition. About [b]11.2 million or 78% of the population transfer took place in the west[/b], with Punjab accounting for most of it; [b]5.3 million Muslims moved from India to West Punjab in Pakistan, 3.4 million Hindus and Sikhs moved from Pakistan to East Punjab in India[/b]; elsewhere in the west [b]1.2 million moved in each direction to and from Sind [/b]



this is what is written in wikepedia.


source

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_of_India#Independence_and_population_ exchanges

karchi was among the FEW , just 5 if I remember , cities in the EAST , which had " TRAMS " , yes the Monster TRAMS , faulty yes, but then the most advanced form of public transport....

and let me search for Ayub Khoro's quote

Re: # 141

Mr majumdar


My Bad , that was a type, yes it was 1.2 Million out of 1.4 Million non-muslim in Sindh.

.and yes this is really unfortunate, that we Pakistani disown pre-islamic culture .

just a little few of what we Disown.

I understand , Regvida the oldest living manuscripts were written somewhere in Punjab , around 1500 BC or 2000 BC

Taxila was one of the most renowned university of its time,
I was reading somewhere [ maybe Dawn ] an article by a geogrpahic professor, and he said, they have found monolithic graves in Gulshan-e-Jauher , a place in Karachi, on some plot, but the owner of those plot quickly filled them up, for the fear of Loss of his plots, which now worths, millions.

... yes Pakistanis lack ,sensitivity to its pre-islamic past , and the distortion of History that started in 47 , to validate TNT is taking its toll.

Re: # 140

{-When Liaqat Ali Khan ....then his famous words, " we do not need to learn about the Gadha Gari Wala " Culture }

Can you provide some evidence to substantiate your claim, if Khan did say or imply then it was wrong but we need to see some evidence to back this allegation.

As for the 12 to 14 million non-Muslims (hindu and Sikhs) that migrated from West AND East Pakistan can you be so kind enough to break that number for Sindh, Punjab, Baluchistan, Frontier AND Bengal. Surely, the forced migration from Punjab witnessed the worst atrocities whereas Sindh remained relatively peaceful.

{then these imigrant had nothing in common with the Local, infact they had no Idea , and they still have no Idea of the over 5000 year Old civilization that is Sindh}

I believe this applies to ALL of the chosen people living in Pakistan, its unfair to target a segment of the population which belongs to the same Indian or Indus civilization.

{Just look at Old Karachi, Ramswani, Hindu Gymkhana, Denso Hall, Jahangir Kothari promenade , Mohata Palace, KMC Building,....etc.etc.etc..... the level of Progress even then in Karachi will be evident, and speaks of the contribution of those who were ...........to leave}

And things are different in Lahore, Lyallpur (Faislabad), Hyderabad, Rawalpindi, Peshawar, Quetta and Ziarat? This complete and utter decay of infrastructure and disregard of history is symbolic of Pakistan in general.

Finally, on the subject of Victor mentality well that is a subjective allegation based on popular stereotypes fanned for ethnic and economic reasons. There is no truth to that allegation and can be easily discredited by looking at he country's progress report immediately after partition.

Aquaris,

(we do not need to learn about the Gadha Gari Wala " Culture.)

Who is Gadha Gari Wala?

(12 out of 14 Millions non-muslims , Sindhi Hindu)

I dont think there were 12-14 million Hindoos in what is now Pak prior to 1947. Maybe 6-7 million Hindoos/Sikhs of which maybe 1 million stayed back.

(infact they had no Idea , and they still have no Idea of the over 5000 year Old civilization that is Sindh.)

Why blame the Mojos when many of todays native Pakis wish to disown (rightly or wrongly) the pre-Islamic culture.

(they are the proverbial SCAPE GOATS for every evil and Ill in this Part of the land .)

That is because the Army is largely Punjoo.

Regards

LOL


1-When Liaqat Ali Khan , threw away Sindh University , into the wilderness of Jamshoro , Ayub Khoro Objected and asked the reason.

then his famous words, " we do not need to learn about the Gadha Gari Wala " Culture .

Ask any Mohajir migrant , I bet 99% will tell you their grand fathers or whatever migrated in or after 48 , when the worst was over in Punjab, Bengal and to someextent in Sindh.

12 out of 14 Millions non-muslims , Sindhi Hindu forced to leave, this was the educated middle class of Sindh ,leaving a void a gap , which was supposed to be filled by the new educated imigrant , but then these imigrant had nothing in common with the Local, infact they had no Idea , and they still have no Idea of the over 5000 year Old civilization that is Sindh.

Just look at Old Karachi, Ramswani, Hindu Gymkhana, Denso Hall, Jahangir Kothari promenade , Mohata Palace, KMC Building,....etc.etc.etc..... the level of Progress even then in Karachi will be evident, and speaks of the contribution of those who were ...........to leave.

...and about Punjabis, well " Rolling stones gather no Moss " , those we willing gave up their Land, language, culture , for some Insutrument of Manipulation like TNT and Islam , deserve this humilation.

just to point out, the difference between the treatment to the very Punjabis , speaks volume, in the Eastern Part, they are respected, honoured, and treated with grace .
where as in the western part, inspite of all the sacrifices, they are the proverbial SCAPE GOATS for every evil and Ill in this Part of the land .


in 47 , like I said, some one WON a Land on the sacrifices of OTHERS , and some one was wounded.
those who WON , then had the Victor Mentality, hence the contemptious treatment to their Subjects, where as on the other side, they gathered themselved, and put Balm on the wounds, and healed the wounded , with respect, and acknowledgement of Interdependece and mutual betterment.

#138 izuber and #129 Nasah

melting pot is a failed ideology. mohajirs, sindhis, punjabis, balochis, pakhtuns, and all other ethnic (and other) identities in Pakistan must be respected. They should be free to practice and celebrate their cultural or religious traditions.

http://letusbuildpakistan.blogspot.com

Re: # 129
Janab Nasah sahib
You say one thing then you contradict yourself !!

The roots are on both sides of the boundary, why do you insist that the Mohajirs should give up on their basics? What gives anyone that right brother?
Part of the families that have been left in India cannot be given up either, they are the same flesh and blood, perhaps you do not have any such connections but those who do, ask them.
On the other hand why dont you think it the other way around when it comes to changing, how about people other than Mohajirs giving up their basics and adopting the other?
I dont think that anyone has the right to change the culture of people.
Mohajirs came home to Pakistan not to be transformed into some other cultures, leave the Mohajirs alone and if they dont suit you then you have the right to avoid them.
They did not chose to come to Pakistan leaving their settled lives no matter if they had any worldly wealth or not.
60 years cant change the culture of people.
Yes Mohajirs are albelay but your suggestion appears to be anokhi wishful thinking. There is a great difference in Botanicals and Biologicals. There is no need to stir up Sindhis or anyone else for that matter.
Mohajirs did not come to Pakistan to become Sindhi, Punjabi, Pathan or Baluch they migrated to be Pakistani and that is more than enough for them, its time for all others to melt in the pot of Pakistan provided the level of loyalty if it is with the homeland or provincial and regional cultures.

Re: # 136
Dear Aquarius
�Though one is weary about wikipedia as a source, but then it has reference sections.�
Yes, one has to rely on some source to come up with the statistics be it flawed after all it is statistics, dont be weary in using such sources since its too late to have to start a new investigation.

You refer to two seasoned scholars Ayesha Jalal & Stanley Wolpert,
Indian scholars around the world have found, Ms. Jalal's, work no less provocative. "In Pakistani terms, she takes a very pro-Indian perspective, but in Indian terms, she's still a Pakistani," observed David Washbrook, a professor of modern South Asian history at Oxford University in Britain.

In his biography of Jinnah, Stanley Wolpert, a professor of South Asian history at the University of California at Los Angeles, painted a different picture of the partition, ascribing Jinnah's zealous quest for Pakistani independence partly to a religious metamorphosis toward the end of his life. Wolpert's perspective conforms much more closely to that of the traditional Pakistani narrative.

So, as you will notice everyone’s perception is different from each other, even when it comes to Pakistan by Pakistanis themselves, while one should not take offense of opinions that may vary from person to person.

In your following comments you mention, “so some one WON a Land, on the sacrifices of Others, Pakistan lacked skilled administrators, and hence IMPORTED quite a number, rememeber Nawab Zada's Plea, and it is said, at some point in time about 70% of the Beaurucracy , hence Establishement consisted on this Imported Administors, with a Victor Mindset.
and like a Victor, the first thing that they Did was undermine the Local Cultures, so the Sindhi became a " gadha Gari wala " Culture, Punjabi Dhagga , and Pathans Niswar eating " Sood Khoors ".�

Now it would be nice if you would enlighten all of us some more that what would you identify a Gaddha Gariwala as? Molvi Sahab, or Doodhwala? it is typical that one who is in business of hauling with his donkey cart is identified so in accordance with the trade and if it becomes an unbearable indignity one should change careers!

However it was different with Basheer camel cart wala, who was ruined by US President Linden B. Johnson, Basheer was called saarban(not sure you were around those days or aware of the story)

On the other hand, when I used to accompany my mother(marhooma) as she was an involved social worker in Pakistan back in the day and was engaged in establishing a school in a Sindhi village in the outskirts of Karachi, I remember quite well having been picked on by Sindhis who from time to time called me “Makkarh�(i.e. an insect) &� Panahgeer� while none of this bothered me or my mother, she continued to diligently work on establishing a school for children and a cottage industry and sewing institute for the women and for no personal benefit of her own, and it was Alhamdulillah fulfilled with an opening ceremony by Begum Rana Liaquat Ali Khan(another IMPORT from India) and, since then numerous children who were deprived of education in the absolute Sindhi community, have been getting their education right in their village where there was no school.

With regards to “Punjabi Dhagga�, I have been called “Matarwa� many a times by other individuals on this very forum but I have not seen the term you suggest as having ever been used as an insult on this forum to even counter them, while during my lifetime I have never heard or seen anyone using such indignity, so this sounds like a application of little extra masala here & gets too spicy to swallow, and this should be avoided as it does not culminate anything but hatred.

Pathans Niswar eating, now that is mentioning a fact which was quite evident they used to and also spit frequently after that, alike some of the people who used to do similarly with paan and dirty up all over specially where it admonished in writing to refrain from.

It needs to be made clear that Urdu speaking Mohajirs from India who migrated for one and only reason, were not a commodity to be blessed with Importation, as narrated by yourself, with reference to some unknown Nawab Zada who may have said so, they came at their own free will to fulfill the dream of a homeland of Muslims, the reason they came and settled in greater numbers in Karachi is because it is a port and a good majority of Mohajirs also came by ships, Karachi was not quite populated those days and you might be surprised that even the Bananas that are available so abundantly were no where to be found those days and were cultivated by Mohajirs as well as Sindhis after partition.

It is a misconception and a serious misunderstanding about the people who came home to Pakistan that they are being labeled as “Victors� as a matter of fact it is a serious insult, no one claims victory over their very own brothers in Islam, this would be like making a joke of ourselves, and if someone claims so or perceives like this they should seek forgiveness of Almighty.

Perhaps you may not have run into many a Mohajirs or Karachites otherwise you would not assume that they don’t know about

There was no undermining of local cultures although you cant expect to give up their own culture and adopt a new culture abruptly, it takes a few generations and a lot of tolerance and co-existence, while it comes to undermining culture how well it is occurring these days that we feel ashamed to watch some of the programs on TV or share a movie with the family.

... this Mindset is still there, for example how many Karachities know any thing about the REST of the Sindh, or for that matter about the history of Punjab or Sarhad or even Balochistan ,...... next to none.

It makes one wonder as to how much you know about the topic you have taken the opportunity to mangle, I can only suggest that you realign what you call mindset, the first place my father went to after coming to Pakistan by way of Karachi was the city of Lahore, although he loved the place but due to some climatic adversities that affected his health he ended up moving back to Karachi leaving several of his very close friends behind which he regretted all his life when he remembered the Lahore he saw and fell in love with.

Other family members dedicated their entire life to Baluchistan where they taught school, administered the Quetta radio station, and later the Peshawar radio station in Frontier, and Punjab too.
There are plenty of Urdu speaking Mohajirs that are scattered all over Punjab, Baluchistan, Sindh & the Frontier, while several are known to be involved in agriculture and cultivating at many places in Sindh.

Dear Aquarius I urge you not to speculate and if you are not familiar with matter its best leaving it alone than allowing it to become tainted to the extent of causing feelings of hatred among others.
I am not offended by your writing just wanted to take the time to go over a few things that I don’t find myself in agreement with.
JazakAllah khair.
Your brother in Islam

though one is weary about wikipedia as a source, but then it has reference sections.

and accordngly,

14.5 million people were forced to Mirgrate, during 47's population transfer 11.2 million in WEST , it then further says about 1.2 Million in Sind , leaving the rest in Punjab. ...about 78% .

3.2 Million in EAST , and the balance from the Minority Provinces.

it quotes sources as Ayesha Jalal, Stanley Wolpert, and a few others

...while reading on a similiar topic in these very Chowk pages, I remember Ranjit's comment , and in a Nutshell it said, People who migrated from the minority provices brought with them a Victor Mindset, developed in an Highly communal enviroment.

so some one WON a Land, on the sacrifices of Others, Pakistan lacked skilled administrators, and hence IMPORTED quite a number, rememeber Nawab Zada's Plea, and it is said, at some point in time about 70% of the Beaurucracy , hence Establishement consisted on this Imported Administors, with a Victor Mindset.
and like a Victor, the first thing that they Did was undermine the Local Cultures, so the Sindhi became a " gadha Gari wala " Culture, Punjabi Dhagga , and Pathans Niswar eating " Sood Khoors ".

... this Mindset is still there, for example how many Karachities know any thing about the REST of the Sindh, or for that matter about the history of Punjab or Sarhad or even Balochistan ,...... next to none.

though one is weary about wikipedia as a source, but then it has reference sections.

and accordngly,

14.5 million people were forced to Mirgrate, during 47's population transfer 11.2 million in WEST , it then further says about 1.2 Million in Sind , leaving the rest in Punjab. ...about 78% .

3.2 Million in EAST , and the balance from the Minority Provinces.

it quotes sources as Ayesha Jalal, Stanley Wolpert, and a few others

...while reading on a similiar topic in these very Chowk pages, I remember Ranjit's comment , and in a Nutshell it said, People who migrated from the minority provices brought with them a Victor Mindset, developed in an Highly communal enviroment.

so some one WON a Land, on the sacrifices of Others, Pakistan lacked skilled administrators, and hence IMPORTED quite a number, rememeber Nawab Zada's Plea, and it is said, at some point in time about 70% of the Beaurucracy , hence Establishement consisted on this Imported Administors, with a Victor Mindset.
and like a Victor, the first thing that they Did was undermine the Local Cultures, so the Sindhi became a " gadha Gari wala " Culture, Punjabi Dhagga , and Pathans Niswar eating " Sood Khoors ".

... this Mindset is still there, for example how many Karachities know any thing about the REST of the Sindh, or for that matter about the history of Punjab or Sarhad or even Balochistan ,...... next to none.

#119 by tahmed

All we need is a little bit of decency. While you seem to prefer to view the world from a real black and white perspective (e.g. Mush as criminal and NS as saviour etc), all I could suggest is: pause, and reflect.

Some food for thought can be digged at:

http://letusbuildpakistan.blogspot.com

Re: # 130
Thanks for being quite reasonable in your writing, one thing though I would like to correct here,

"A small percentage of the
people that actually migrated from India themselves is
alive today.

Proportionately speaking it's a good sized number of people who migrated and included people that were Punjabi, Urdu & Sindhi speaking, appropriately the adjustment of lives was in a totally new environment while a good number had quit their ages worth of comfort regardless of it's level, speakers of Sindhi & Punjabi had somewhat easier time to adjust due to their lingual capabilities but the Urdu speaking ones took longer to merge in with the rest based on the same scenario.
You are right that there has been a sizeable merger due to inter-marriages as well as the ability to accept a newly developed culture that came to happen naturally while there is still some progress to be made it has not been quite as transparent a transition but hopefully the growing pains should be over if we learn to forgive, forget and over come in the name of that one most important factor that brings us under the umbrella of Pakistan.
Personally I have numerous relatives that experienced inter-marriages and are happily living together in good terms since ever.
Appreciate your considerate comments.
Regards

Re: # 126

HP,

{This issue needs to be looked outside the personal behavior of Judges or one particular Chief Justice. He has provided an opportunity for the politicians and perhaps his role ended after that. But he needs to be brought back if nothing else, for a day to provide the victory to the political workers in the country}

Agreed.

{When she was murdered, the elections were already announced and she was campaigning in Pindi. The free and fair is really a matter of perception.}

Free and fair where the ruling party supported by establishment were given a sound beating, now was that because of CJ/Lawyers movement or BB/PPP political initiatives which included preventing NS from making another boycott mistake? No perception, facts.

{Boosted by the CJ restoration in July, her deal was finally sealed with the army or Gen. Musharaf. She did not bring the people out on the streets, the Lawyers did that.}

Musharraf has seen bigger protests than these post 9/11 and survived, these protests were relatively smaller and limited to major cities in Punjab only, rest of the country was relatively disassociated from the entire mela muwaishea da. Therefore, this argument that it was lawyers movement that forced the army generals hands is not correct. Another element that seems to be lost is the US involvement in trying to build their war against terror support which required change of strategy in Pakistan. Musharraf had failed to deliver on the political front, thus the need to bring broad based support to the WAT. Political pundits and lobbyist in Washington witnessed remarkable change when BB and her confidante Hussein Haqqani lobbied for change in US Govt policies.

Point being, lawyers movement does deserve some recognition but the desire to promote it as the one and only savior is incorrect and hides the basic agenda which is to oust Musharraf, basically revenge.

Lastly, Pakistan faces far bigger crises than those that are being discussed by the political leaders. Inflation or hyper inflation with slowing growth will have devastating effect on the masses. There are no easy solutions but for sure we need to set the priorities right.