The Lucifer Effect

Naqshbandi sahib,

You advocate an Islamist revolution for Pakistan. But wouldn't Mr. Mehsud or Maulana Fazloo be a better choice than Dr Shaykh Tahir ul Qadri or Mawlana Ilyas Qadri

Regards

Yasir,

don't worry, someone will be here sooner or later to disagree with you :).

Well Janaab-e-Hurricane sahib I seem to agree with you on more points than I thought I would.

In the current situation anyone one would support "justice seeking" western dressed lawyers as compared to illinformed tribal mullahs and as you say hats off to the architecht (there is a hypothesis that the great USA is behind the alwyers as well, how? dont ask me !!!)

And to add to my point about the current lot of politicians I quote an article from chowk itself by Ahmer Muzammil " In a country where now millions of people don’t have enough to eat, Mr. Nawaz Sharif travels in an entourage of cars worth no less than 20 million dollars. Imran Khan lives alone in a mansion that would easily provide sustenance for 10,000 families for a year. And the kicker is that they are supposed to be the good-guys, the anti-establishment force if you will."

But I agree with you also about Musharraf, he is as bad as all the previous lot and not worse so why treat him any differently than NS or BB. Not many people would agree but he did show the world the Pakistan had the ability to revive it's economy between 2002- 2005.

I can't agree on more points with you other wise I shall start feeling ill. Yasir Abbasi

Yasir sahib, Naqshbandi (pbuh), Cheema saab,

We seem to resonate on the same thoughts. Walliullah rehmatullah naqshbandi has good intentions, but may be looking at the wrong leaders...I feel that growing half-foot beards and walking with "takhna-high" pantaloons or shalwaars isn't really going to make a difference.

Cheema sahib is on another plane altogether that is quite a bit disillusioned with the "desi" folks. I can sympathise with feeling the way he feels about us desis, heck, I've felt it too, but one must look deep within and start making amends. Else, what's the solution? We are desis yeah?

You see I personally think this lawyer’s movement is a farce and is being used solely for political purposes rather than for an 'Independent Judiciary.'

Yasir sahib, the "chattering classes" manufacture this sort of "movement". I also completely agree that the lawyer movement was a total farce. An interesting one though, and my hats of to the architects of this diversion. No-one likes to watch bearded mullahs in shalwar kameez throwing stones and burning down places, but the lawyers were mostly clean shaven, and were wearing suits! Fantastic opticals!

The crucial question is who is funding this movement? How can the lawyers stop working for so long and still make ends meet? Who funds the motorcade of the ex –CJ and the arrangements of the big jalsa?

indeed. And a followup question is, if everyone is in the same pigsty, could it be that the CJ was not the saint everyone makes him out to be?

How can you expect anything from an inept leader like Nawaz Sharif who wanted to become a dictator (ameer-ul-momineen) himself? Our nation has long term amnesia and we forget the past deeds of these inept leaders.

See, we are on the same thought plane. I did not expect anything from BB or NS. In fact, were it not for the 2 assassination attempts, Musharraf would still be acting sane and be doing a better job than these two would (I know, I just went on another thought plane there...). Our democratic institutions have been corrupted to a place where they resemble the dictatorial institutions. The only difference being that sometimes the dictitorial institutions end up doing some good (Ayub with roads and hospitals; Musharraf with the economic revival). I know this will be a point of disagreement in our discussion here, please don't let that distract you. I am 100% in support of democracy.

I am 100% opposed to the elitist0cracy that NS, BB, etc represent. It is worse than a dictatorship. At least the dictatorship is apparent.


I repeat the only thing that can truly bring about a change in the country is true unhindered justice. This will create a sense of equality among people; the provinces who feel sidelined will become true stake holders in the nation building process.

100% agreed.

but don't u see? Nizam e Mustafa WILL bring this long-looked for justice. It will NOT be utopia [that is for the Mahdi] but it will be much better than now....

An interesting observation akcheema but I agree and disagree with you. I agree that our tolerance for opposing views is not that great at the moment but this is not a constant. Tolerance is not a genetic condition that we can never acquire it. We 'develop' it through social engineering. When a young lad in the UK will see his father, grandfather and neighbours all stopping at traffic lights, so will he when he grows up. We develop our personalities through nature and nurture and environmental conditioning is of utmost important now than before. We can either continue to live like this and perish or start making a change at the most basic and minute level i.e. us. (Not USA :-)) Yasir Abbasi

An interesting observation akcheema but I agree and disagree with you. I agree that our tolerance for opposing views is not that great at the moment but size is not a constant. Tolerance is not a genetic condition that we can never acquire it. We 'develop' it through social engineering. When a young lad in the UK will see his father, grandfather and neighbours all stopping at traffic lights, so will he when he grows up. We develop our personalities through nature and nurture and environmental conditioning is of utmost important now than before. We can either continue to live like this and perish or start making a change at the most basic and minute level i.e. us. (Not USA :-)) Yasir Abbasi

Re: # 4; dryiabbasi sahib,
"What we need is to be able to listen to voices other than our own, and we can only do that by opening the heart and downsizing the ego")))

I have said somewhere recently that people from the sub-continent (can easily be generalised to include the middle-east as well) cannot do that; there is something which is unique....I have not seen it elsewhere, especially in the west. The areas highlighted in the statement above are just one example....let's face it, we can't even extend an impartial ear to someone else's argument here at Chowk! let alone in real life...

..the size of our ego is in inverse proportion to the substance we have on offer..

.....if only

Naqshbandi sahib I disagree with you. I have lived in Pakistan for a long time and my move to the west is only recent. I have experienced the problems in that country at grass root levels. You have completely defied the main purpose of the article by claiming that people like Tahir-ul-Qadri can bring in a change. The whole concept of conformity and "andhi Taqleed" is what this article is warning about. When the masses stop thinking critically and leave the opinion making to a few individual that is when oppression begins. You see I personally think this lawyer’s movement is a farce and is being used solely for political purposes rather than for an 'Independent Judiciary.' Have you ever seen a Jalsa of the deposed CJ, it looks like a political rally with lawyers and judges doing Bhangra and people putting up stickers all over their body, this is more like Bollywood. The crucial question is who is funding this movement? How can the lawyers stop working for so long and still make ends meet? Who funds the motorcade of the ex –CJ and the arrangements of the big jalsa? How can you expect anything from an inept leader like Nawaz Sharif who wanted to become a dictator (ameer-ul-momineen) himself? Our nation has long term amnesia and we forget the past deeds of these inept leaders. I repeat the only thing that can truly bring about a change in the country is true unhindered justice. This will create a sense of equality among people; the provinces who feel sidelined will become true stake holders in the nation building process.

Hurricane has a very valid point with this statement "What we need is to be able to listen to voices other than our own, and we can only do that by opening the heart and downsizing the ego ;)"

And Alice I don't have an armchair either so we both disagree with Naqshbandi.

i don't own an armchair. *sob*

"there is no good war, or bad peace" (said someone who revelled in war).

An interesting article Yasir. "The Lucifer Effect" is such a sensational title, and I guess that's why those experiments are so famous.

The mind will always interpret things, right or wrong, uncaring of the validity of the information. It is the heart that we must listen to.

Conformity is neither necessary, required, nor acheivable. What we need is to be able to listen to voices other than our own, and we can only do that by opening the heart and downsizing the ego ;)

as u can see abbasi sahib -- such topics don't cause much debate on chowk!

its because most of us are hypocrites and don't live in pakistan--or india for that matter--and are only armchair analysts from the comfort of our lives in the West.

I really think what pakiatan needs is a complete revolutionary movement to root out this current corrupt system hook, line and sinker and start all over again. people had high hopes after this recent round of voting and in the lawyers' movement and in this new govt. but it has all proved a mirage.

the only ppl who can provide the groundroot support for such a revolution are the ulama because the one cause which causes pakis of all hues to come out into the streets is islam; sometimes unscrupulous politicians use this emotion to mislead the masses but channelled properly by a genuinely pious and mainstream --as opposed to extremist--scholar and we could see an iranian style revolution.

if dr shaykh tahir ul qadri would take on this mantle i really believe he would be successful--or mawlana ilyas qadri of dawateslami since both enjoy the support of pakistan's mainstream religious masses and also of the shia minority whose support is also important since they are about 20-25%.