Chasing a Mirage: The Tragic Illusion of an Islamic State

Re: # 148
NiKKamayG
Your only remedy if it works is available from Roto Rooter since the drains are overly clogged which is forcing you to use other avenues to spew what you should be spewing from the exits nature has designed to keep you sane.
Under your present conditions I cant think of discussing any of your ideas since due to the consequences of the back up you are downright stinky and not presentable.
Would not even consider you for slavery even if you paid your cost out of pocket. Go back to hiding in your hole.

Re: # 145
IJuber...

Ans: When you debate, you should not bother about hurting. If you keep faith on your drug addicted father, do it make your father innocent?
Love for the land and its culture do not conflict with democracy. It strengthens democracy. Your arab slavery is basically root of all these problems.
In the earlier post, I have already told the source of secularism. It was to isolate "faith" from civil administration. More precisely, Church will not be source of any administrative power.
Your deep rooted arab slavery, that also from mediaval (called as dark period) age, will not allow you to create a functional democracy in the muslim majority state of Pakistan. Turkey survived due to closeness to Europe. Rest of the muslim countries has shown miserable record in participatory democracy.

Re: # 139
What would one understand or state about Secularism or Democracy when s/he is pre-occupied with hinduvta in principle, when one claims to be secular but feels at liberty to inflict indignities on other's faith, how in any manner such an individual can even be trusted with his/her definition of the word secular let alone it's roots?
NKG take some lessons in carrying a conversation before you go to the next step, if you began to run before you learn to walk properly you are prone to get hurt bad, bad enough to lose any ability to walk again.
Those who carry a malaise against other faiths don't qualify for anything equal to democracy, and those who live in a glass castle don't throw stones at others.
You are therefore admonished not to address matters that are beyond your level of intellect, i.e. mind your own business. Those who have a faith do not humiliate other's faith.

Re: # 142
Tahir sahab a complete definition of mis-firing is posted for NKG hope the mughalizaat have not flown all the way to the top floor due to malfunction of his elevator and perhaps he will get his clogged drains cleaned and restored on a timely basis just in case.
Otherwise even the world famous Roto Rooter may not be able to restore his back-up depending on the stage of ailment that presents evidence of being terminal.

Re: # 140
Same difference NKG, if you believe that inflicting insults on those holy to others solves any problems then you are talking about Indian Politics not as meant to be but as being practiced.
Unless it is your second nature to use your mouth for natural actions that should use other passages provided by nature, what can anyone say on such a distressed condition, other than, put your diaper where your mouth is.
In as much as rhetorical statements are concerned I can only pray that God gives you the sense to stay clean as God is the only entity that can guide misguided and astray.

Re: # 135
Mr. Echo Boom,

Please clarify your comments for the benefit of those whose IQ is lower than the average temperature in Toronto during winter nights.

Regards.

Re: # 135
Mr. Echo Boom,

Please clarify your comments for the benefit of those whose IQ is lower than the average winter teperature in Toronto.

Regards.

Re: # 139
NGK, you're mis-firing again! Don't you have a loving Pushpa in your life who'd gladly see to it that you waste yourself completely?

Think of your deceased pita ji or mata ji's troubled souls in 'svarga' listening to your tirades against Isalm.

Turn away from 'narkh' murakh balak...

#137 Posted by akcheema on May 25, 2008 7:27:41 pm
Re: # 136; NangaPir
"The national wars are labeled as religious conflicts."

''I thought it was the other way around''

You missed the point. You have every right to presume. The conflicts are labelled according to their benefits to the one who labels them. They are nationalist in Ireland though we know it is Catholic vs. protestant. However, if tomorrow there is difference between UK and USA then USA will label it religious and UK will label it nationalists. Now my being suffering from religious fervor or Pakistani, I am proud of what I am. Thanks for introducing me to myself.

#139
To
ijuber not Tahir...

Rashid...

Yes, widows were deeeply exploited before Muhammed...

...and he was married to a lady who inherited the entire property of her father and married at least twice, before marrying to Muhammed at the age of 40....

Re: # 95
Tahir...
Secularism does not mean equal treatment for all faiths. The term evolved in UK to separate authority of Church from civil administration.
The primary role of religion is to provide moral/spiritual guidance to people. It should not enter into administrative matters.
Islam itself is a dirty political concept (not good one like Democracy) based on cheating, coercion, destruction etc...which Muhammed was quite expert at.
A spiritual leader convinces through his words. He doesn't need to pick up sword and kill couple of people such that others submit to "Allahs will", otherwise they will suffer the same fate. Successful extortion gangs follow similar modus operandi. And this cheating etc.. made Muhammed,a ragpicker in childhood, a rich person with multiple wives at ripe age....
Islamic secularism people are experiencing in Pakistan, Malayasia, Saudi Arabia very well; with its secular Sharia law and Sharia court etc...

Arjun,BJ:
The partition of India was supposed to be. When a section of society gets infected with mediaval, middle east barbarism, the best way to live without trouble is, ampute it. That is the way cancer is treated for secondary organs (even in some cases people ampute hand or leg).
India is big enough and great enough to survive and grow without couple of areas. Unfortunately, neither Nehru nor Gandhi wanted to study the nature of this cancer and neither they had faith/confidence on India. If you study the background of these two leaders, they were brought up in such areas (Gandhi from Gujrat, and Nehru from Kashmir and UP), that had witnessed the maximum onslaught from islamists/barbarians. Entire civilisation(education, art & culture, literature...) was destroyed completely for couple of centuries. In UP ( for that matter, entire cow belt), the language got distorted to 3/4 urdooo and no quality literature for 4-5 centuties (at least). What you expect from such people or leaders of such people? Confident enough to bounce back!!!!
The ancestors of the same people, who have composed great literature (Vishnu Sharma-PanchaTantra, Som Dev Bhatta- Katha Sarit Sagar, Kalidasa-Avigyan Sakuntalam..., Bana Bhatta-Kadambari...), were busy writing Allohpanishad and distorting Atharva Veda. No fundemantal work. And poor Tulsidas, distorted Ramayana and even tried to protray Valmiki as robber!!!
I wish UP and entire cow belt should have been fortunate enough, the way Bengal was shaped after British kicked out moslems. We have got luminaries in all fields during this period (mid 19th century to mid to late 20th century...)
(literature - Bankim Chandra Chattyopadhyay, Rabindranath Tagore, Sarat Chandra Chattyopadhyay,Bibhuti Bhusan Bandyopadhyay...
Art- Nandalala Bose, Ram Kinkar Baize, Abanindranath Tagore...
Science-J C Bose, Meghnad Saha, Satyendranath Bose, P C Roy...
Medicine- U N Brahmachari
Industry- Biren Mukherjee (IISCO)
Social Activist-Rammohan Roy, Vivekananda...)

At.#121.
Although the vexing issue of marriage of Ayisha to Muhammad given in so called ‘traditions’ should be a non- issue to the learned on this forum in the context of Quran, it may be of help to conceder the TREND (historically given) set by him in all his marriages to the widows and disadvantaged women in some way or other in the society.
Therefore Dr Shabir Ahmad’s (http://ourbeacon.com)findings and statements that this person Ayisha was NOT Abu Bakar’s daughter but his widowed sister Ayisha!
Was ‘Muhammad the man’ practicing socially accepted practice of the time, in order to give societal protection and "dignity" to the women he is supposed to have married?
Then it is logical to accept baby Ayisha to be a ‘blip’ on the trend chart and a fabricated drama at that...…well so that?:
Khey gulshan kaa karobaar chaley!
Some thing to think about depends upon one take on Hadis!
Rashid

Re: # 136; NangaPir
"The national wars are labeled as religious conflicts."

I thought it was the other way around.....Northern Ireland Catholics were euphemistically labelled as "Nationalists" and the Unionist Protestants as "Loyalists" to avoid religious labels.

I think you have been the victim of the same disease that has infested the muslim mind and now we are reaping the results of centuries of stagnation and fermentation....blame the other...the colonial...the west...the american....the jew....the mirzaee....the hindu......infinitum

Nothing, absolutely nothing, will change ever unless we first look at ourselves and our interactions with those we class as "others".....otherwise, since we have nothing else to offer humanity except for our more than generaous and disproportionately high birth rates, we may as well NOT exist as an entity

Good day to all of you...I have no patience for nonsense

The national wars are labeled as religious conflicts. There is Polisario struggle, Ireland, Columbia, Etta in Spain, you just name it. There is also in Sudan but there is oil so it not considered religious. The problem is the understanding between eastern VALUES and western POLITICS (Poly Tics). People in the east trust. Do you know that in Caribbean Brits issued licenses to pirates to use them against Spanish? They launched war against China since China refused to import opium from them. It was that China was not opening its Market. Indians never learnt. Brits East India company bought all the rice in Orrisa as business. Farmers were so naïve that they trusted Brits promise. Then Brits wanted twice the price. Look in your record. 3 million perish due to starvation. It was not Christnity but imperialism. Roosevelt was awarded Nobel peace price but in fact he conspired with Japan to trade Korea for the Philippines. Even in Iraq Chalabi was accused of spying for Iran and he is in official post. Muqtadda Saddar was accused of killing but negotiations are going on with him. They do not honor as there is no term like honor in their politics. In fact they have cultivated people who are fighting against honor starting with our Begharet army. Having said that “some people” of east are so shallow and so ignorant that they do not know history which is RADAR for their analysis. Mullahs, though they have a lot of other sins in their account, never ever supported Indian partition except those who were nurtured by Brits. For example, Atta Ullah Shah Bokari's the leader of Aehrar, famous speeches were "I will kiss the hoofs of that pig that will ruin the imperialist crop. I will kiss the mouth of that rabid dog who will bit the colonizers". I believe Hindus are at least more acceptable to a Muslim than a pig and a rabid dog. Maulana Hassart was given rigorous imprisonment and his famous verse:
Hai Chukki key Mushqat be Jari aur Hurfe Sukhan Be
Turfa Tamasha hai Hassret key Tabiat Ka.
Maulana Obid Ullah Sindi was de facto communist but not like those who welcomed partition like Sajjad Zaheer of India Communist Party. Bengal Reshmi Rumal Therik and Wahibi Tahreeks were all for national liberations. Subash Chandra Bose second in command was Muslim and they wanted national liberation. So Indian division was in fact division of land and of Muslims. But Brits made it a Muslim Nationalism versus Hindu domination issue and these entire modern IntelKetual toe the same line. Today these mullahs are incorrectly blamed for something they did not do. But this is the Western politics “get the job done”. However this is conscious dishonesty and betrayal with historical facts. That is one reason all these religious forces are rethinking their stand and preparing for Ghezwae Hind. Unless you have some insight into historical materialism it is very difficult to understand how these things are moved around. Today these movements are no different than Christian or Tamil movement but no one gives them religious color. In fact Tamils are mainly Hindus and Sinhalese are others (Mainly Buddhists but also some Christian and Muslim). Even Kurds against Turkey are not termed religious because Turkey is in NATO. But Achenes in Indonesia are sometimes called fundamentalist others times nationalist depends who is ruling Jakarta. I hope this elaborated explanation is sufficient - worth my efforts.

Tahir & NangaPir


A bit belated acknowledgement but better late....

Tahir & NangaPir, you are truly a very valuable asset here...and Nangapir, even when I do not agree with your anti- stances, I look forward to them..because you are consistent and unwavering in your belief.

P.S: Please continue to share your knowledge & insight even if it seemingly "hurts" muslims & Islam....The rest here do not matter & as they are unwitting partcipants and know not what awaits them ahead.


This has always been the pattern before they swallow it hook, line & sinker.
" Jin ko matlab naheeN hotaa voh satatay bhhee naheeN"
Those who want no truck with it, never venture near & bait the ones they "dislike". :) :)

Re: # 124
Then follow YOUR thing and avoid useless commentary on Islam.

Someday you'll find the truth for yourself if you keep looking.

Shaanti.

nanga, more important thing is to understand your pov.

What did you mean by all those fights in kashmir, chechnya, thailand, phillipines etc. being for 'national recognition'? How is that 'national recognition' related to Islam (or not)? Thanks in advance.

Re: # 120
"Today generation thinks that it is notrhing less than the acts of a pedophile. Just read the historical writing of Bukhari'- the eminent Muslim Chronicler."

Which generation, and which people are you referring to? The ones that work secretly for NGOs to stir up trouble in Muslim lands?

"Do you think Bukhari be killed like a rat? Or should it be treated as a fact"

Bukhari sahib is dead, and God WILL either question him for inserting insulting narrations or those who did so on his behalf. Many times, scholars don't say certain things but folks later on falsely attribute utterances to them!

I've said it before, not everything in these hadith books can be considered the truth. Quite a few things go against the character of Prophets and God's own commands. I believe that the Qur'an is the word of God, Ahadith (narrations, occurences, happenings) are the words of men about a man!

You must listen to what daddy says and not what daddy's friend's acquaintance says about daddy. The same problem arises when Mark, Matthew, Luke and John describe Biblical events. They AND Paul vary because they never actually met Isa (peace on him). The Gospel of Barnabas is unknown to most Christians because it paints a picture of an actively struggling ('Jihadi' you might say) Prophet!

[In 325 C.E., the Nicene Council was held, where it was ordered that all original Gospels in Hebrew script should be destroyed. An Edict was issued that any one in possession of these Gospels will be put to death. In 383 C.E., the Pope secured a copy of the Gospel of Barnabas and kept it in his private library!]

This does not mean that one must not dig into Ahadith literature to find out how life was really back then. You'd rather believe The History Channel or Nat-Geo than these narrations! The child marriage issue is a no-issue, a dead horse being flogged, no truth at all. So move on brother.

I suggest you save the Gujjars from extermination in India rather than worry about non-issues.

Reagrds.

PS: Do ask sensible questions but not what Mr. Laddu, BJ, and NKG have already asked, otherwise it becomes repetitive and boring.

The a-holes from Ali Sina's whitemansfaith site have hijacked this thread with their meaningless copy pastes proving once again to us that these morons possess the brains of baboons and cannot think worth a fart, little wonder that their master, the Senile man himself only has his e-coli to keep him company at the select spot where the sun don't shine....keep up with this BS fools, you know damn all about Islam to compose even one intelligent argument against it...

#94 Posted by Eklavya on May 23, 2008 6:46:55 pm
re: arjun
"Nanga pir is highlighting that Muslims in all these countries (and in many other countries yet to be mentioned) are a separate nation."

I thought you could have done much much better. If you have read Nanga's previous post, it is very clear even from Quoran there is no such thing as Muslim as a NATION. Jinnah got Pakistan seprated or so called freedom from British NOT Indians. India got one day later. So why not direct all your anger against bloody Brits. But oops they are white superior master. And Jinnah had highest fear that religious forces will drive back Pakistan into United India. All religious parties were against division. Jamiate Islami, Jamiate Ulemahe Hind (Abu Kalam Azad its leader), etc were against division. Khaksar even tried to kill Jinnah. But Jinnah insisted that he tried to work with Hindus. They are so much narrow-minded they do not accept their own equal. You can not live with them. But religious parties say we can. Who is right it is obvious. That is Jamiate Ulemae Pakistan was formed. Maulana Usmani betrayed JH. Then inside Pakistan Jamiate Ulemae Islam (Fazal Rehman, Taliban, etc) was formed and still they do not accpet Muslims as a separate nation. The question is much deeper and try to press your grey matter into service litte bit more.

#120,

I know you're a monkey. But just for record.

I don't know what age the lady was, nor how old the gentleman was at the time. However, he saw something in her.

What did that lady grow up to become? The molested one? Traumatized or a great warrior and the keeper of her molester's every scrap of writing?

Never mind. I don't want an answer and please refrain. You're a hindu, and hindus (particularly cockroaches like you) are not supposed to be asked this question. But maybe you will think about it.

Kamath#122:

Thanks for that review. But in case you didn't know, Sun is a right-wing tabloid and STeyn is very very anti-islam.

But, in one of my very first interacts at chowk ten years ago, I had said that islamic reformers are likely to emerge from India or the West where Muslims are in a minority and are forced to live in the reality of a minority in a pluralist society. I believe that this development has been delayed because of the overly liberal attitude of the Western societies (which they are now regreting) but will still happen, because the quran and hadith themselves may not be sufficient to provide a complete guide to such a living; esepcially the West, where they have come after a "hijrat" from dar-ul-islam.

Re: # 123 Dost Mittar:

Child marriages are not uncommon even in today's world. It happens in India all the time. Africa is no exception.

Do you think certain values of the past should not be judged by today's std. Agreed! But even in those days certain cultural norms were condemned by the kind souls.

Can we accept slavery, brutality and torture that happened yesterday as that of the past and not condemn them? It is so barbaric. How about burning of widows on funeral pyres?

Kamath

Re: # 123 Dost Mittar:

Child marriages are not uncommon even in today's world. It happens in India all the time. Africa is no exception.

Do you think certain values of the past should not be judged by today's std. Agreed! But even in those days certain cultural norms were condemned by the kind souls.

Can we accept slavery, brutality and torture that happened yesterday as that of the past and not condemn them? It is so barbaric. How about burning of widows on funeral pyres?

Kamath

tahir#116:

Very respectfully, I disagree with you. What Muslims do or don't within their community is their business and their business alone, but when they interact with non-muslims, they can follow the quran and sunnah as long as it does not conflict with the laws of the society that they live in, justa as non-muslims have to live according to the laws of the islamic countries in which they live. I believe that this is also what Maulana Maudoodi said in respect to the Muslims who stayed back in India after the creation of Pakistan.

Re: # 121

Our conscience will be at peace if we admit that all religions are only attempts to seek the devine and all have short comings in their teachings as they are the products of the baggage of times.

One great philosopher from India S. Radhakrishnan wrote that '..religion teaches us to live ethical and moral life..". That what we should strive for and reject the lots of crap that comes withe literal translation and interpretation of any '" sacred literature".

wA sALAAAM.
kAMATH

Kamath#120:

One should be careful not to "backpolate" contemporary morals.

It was not uncommon for people to "contract" the marriage of their child at that time (I do not know if it was uncommon for an old man to marry a much younger girl).

So, Bukhari could not have been killed at that time, as he did not insult the Prophet by narrating those facts.

Dost Mittar:

You should read column by Salim Mansur who is an eminent Muslim intellectual and Professor of political science in Waterloo Univ. See the link below.

He says, '..Tarek Fatah has provided an urgent inside view of the struggle consuming the Arab-Muslim world and the future at stake with how it eventually ends. His book deserves to be widely read. .."
Kamath

Getting a read on moderation By SALIM MANSUR
Toronto Sun- Canada
See also: http://www.torontosun.com/News/Columnists/Mansur_Salim/2008/05/24 /5656596-sun.php

Since the Islamist terrorist strikes on America's heartland six years ago and counting, the West wistfully waits for "moderate" Muslims to come together to take back their faith/tradition from those promoting mayhem and murder in the name of Islam.

The wait has been empty. What then is one to conclude from the absence of an organized effort by Muslims in the West stepping forth publicly to repudiate Islamists without exception?

Mark Steyn is one observer of Muslims most insistent in stating, as he does in a recent column in the National Review, that a "moderate" Muslim is a mythical creature. I enjoy immensely Steyn's writings, yet on this matter I differ with him.

It is true we have not seen Muslims living in the West come out in substantive numbers against Muslim extremists and their ideology of political Islam. But there are individual Muslims, as I observed in a column written some time ago, who at great risk "condemn the culture of violence Muslims have bred for extremists among them to exploit."
Moreover, these vulnerable Muslims "work alone, or in small groups of like-minded Muslims, despite being maligned and ostracized by fellow Muslims, to dissect and expose Muslim extremism to the world at large while striving against immense difficulties to keep faith in the ideals of Islam."
Tarek Fatah -- a "moderate" Muslim by any definition, television host in Toronto of the Muslim Chronicle and founding member of the Muslim Canadian Congress -- in a recently published book, Chasing a Mirage, confirms my observation.

Since Iran's leader Ayatollah Khomeini pronounced in 1989 the notorious religious-based opinion for Muslims to murder Salman Rushdie for writing The Satanic Verses, the world remains witness to the peril any writer faces when contemplating any critical study of Islam and Arab-Muslim history. It is a peril Fatah has had to contemplate in writing a book of much merit, and then being dismissive of Islamists in Canada who have threatened him for his "moderate" stand taken against them in public.
Fatah provides an insightful reading of how Arab-Muslim history, in casting aside the universalism of Muhammad's message, headed into the dead end of tribal power and conquest out of which morphed the contemporary politics of Islamist chauvinists.

One of the useful distinctions Fatah offers is between a "state of Islam" and an "Islamic state." The former he describes as strivings of an individual for inner spiritual tranquillity that is timeless and universal. The latter he speaks of as the fanatical quest of Islamists to resurrect in the 21st century a political arrangement from the 7th century contrived by Arabs of Muhammad's generation after his demise. The contemporary struggle within Islam is between these two quests, and in their eventual outcome rests peace or war in our time.

CANNOT BE NEUTRAL
Consequently, the West cannot remain neutral in this struggle spanning continents. The great irony is, as Fatah illustrates,

Muslims may acquire a "state of Islam" living in the West while denied such repose wherever the morbid reality of "Islamic state" has been proclaimed as in Pakistan, Iran and Saudi Arabia.

Tarek Fatah has provided an urgent inside view of the struggle consuming the Arab-Muslim world and the future at stake with how it eventually ends. His book deserves to be widely read. END

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Re: # 118 TAHIR:

Your statement says, "..Anybody who insults the Prophet, his wives and Islam will automatically be condemned to hiding somewhere like a rat..."

What do you think of this historic truth written down by a great Hadith collector Al Bukhari? He stated that Prophet Mohammad 'married' Ayesha at the age of six. ( he simply demanded her from her father". Then he consummated at the age of nine.-(other meaning- he humped on her tender age of 9}. Today generation thinks that it is notrhing less than the acts of a pedophile. Just read the historical writing of Bukhari'- the eminent Muslim Chronicler.

Do you think Bukhari be killed like a rat? Or should it be treated as a fact?

Kamath

#114 Posted by tahir,

These 'moderate' and 'modern' Muslims are those whose women chant "Ph***i Ph***i - Ch**t Ch**t" after the recital of Vagina Monologues in Karachi and Lahore, as Ali Pai Upwalla was kind to inform me.

Re: # 110
It is unclear whether Sell-Man Rush-Die is being touted as a 'moderate modern' spokesperson for Muslims...

Anybody who insults the Prophet, his wives and Islam will automatically be condemned to hiding somewhere like a rat.

Once a rat, always a rat, no matter how dazzling the race and what the new citizenship status.

Re: # 108

"ex-pat muslims" = ex-patriotic Muslims (with a lowercase 'm')

"especially Pakistanis elsewhere" = Where if not HERE???

Re: # 107
Mr. DM,
"he is a moderate muslim....represents modern muslims who want to coexist in a pluralist society...I have not seen him criticise either the Quran or Prophet Mohammad."

Modern Muslim must not mean acting cowardly or foolishly like a slave raised on Canadian Dollars. If they care so much, let them fight it out HERE instead of THERE.

Moderate means 'malleable' to suit western agendas.

And how far North can he go critising the Qur'an or the Prophet?

Regards.

Re: # 105
"The wordplay of his one shair doesn’t equate to maligning or bad mouthing Iqbal. There is nothing wrong in twisting a shair around to have a little fun."

Well, have fun which ever way you like but I've made my point, although you attempted to score your point!

If some Ayatullah hates Iqbal for his anti-mullah utterances, don't be surprised by what a 'robed one' uttered against the Companions burried next to the Prophet!

Of course, people 'have fun' saying things.

Re: # 103
The point you made was understood a while back putting my own two and two together. This wave of nationalism was 'created' no doubt. Now shhh.....quiet please....

But Allah works in subtle ways. What WE label as a 'grave injustice' appears to be turning into a wake-up call for the sleeping giant! His Way takes its own time.

And that is why I too maintain that all 'sirs' have done what they were asked to do!

My point was that a vulgar distortion of a "shay'r" of the poet is plain sillyness on the part of the concerned interactor who once attempted to teach me good manners while defending someone whom Mr. Zee'86'Max totally unclothed for reasons best known to him.

We will leave Allama Iqbal at the foot of the Badshahi Mosque now, to be judged by the Divine Chief Justice.

Regards.

I think someone is here to red flag every single one of Arjun's posts; I would like to protest in the strongest possible words against such practice.

The last few posts had nothing that could be considered offensive even by the most paranoid here.

I hope we all learn the virtue of freedom of speech and have the moral capacity to take in views in complete contradiction to our own; that is called civility and common courtesy which ultimately leads to us calling ourselves civilised.

Thank you

Re: # 102
You do not deserve to be dignified with a response

#103 Posted by masadi on May 24, 2008 12:10:06 pm


where their political strength was broken and the status of this nation reduced to "whore of the West"


dude...jinnah has been dead forever...how can you blame his generation for your predicament...

if you didn't correct your own course, it's your own damn fault...just as it's your damn fault for dancing in the streets when the army overthrows an elected government..

Re: # 109; Dost

Thanks. I get the feeling there is more diversity within the muslims of Canada than what I saw growing up in England. Although there are small elements representative of 'moderate - whatever that is' Islam, majority are deeply residing in their countries (Pakistanis esp) of the 1960s when and where they happenend to have left it.

Outspoken individuals like Irshad Manji, Fatah etc are very hard to come by; if they exist, they don't let it known openly without risking serious repercussions; the Rushdie affair is only one widely known example.

Even here on Chowk it seems to feature repeatedly.

btw; I hate 'multi-culturalism' myself; it allows stupid ideas to survive and continue to flourish especially in a free society.

akcheema#108:

It is a difficult question to answer, but the answer would be a qualified 'yes'. Canadian Muslims are more diverse than the UK or Australian Muslims. We have a sizeable population of Muslims from the Middle East, Iran, Afghanistan, Ethiopia, Somalia as well as India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, but the big difference is a sizable group of French-Speaking Muslims from North Africa. The leadership and spokesmanship seems to be in the hands of Arabs and South Asians, especially Pakistanis.

Most Canadian Muslims seem to be big supporters of the officially encouraged multiculturalism, although increasingly some Canadian voices are being heard for 'harmonisation' to replace multiculturalism, especially in Quebec. Indeed, Muslims became quite aggressive supporters of multiculturalism and started to demand sharia courts for themselves. They almost got them, too, but the London bombings of July 2006 and aggressive campagning against these courts by feminist groups turned the tide of public opinion against such courts. I think that Muslims or any other minority group should not expect any more compromises from the majority group in Canada.

Re: # 107; Dost

Are you able to comment on the muslims as a group in Canada? I always wanted to know if they were any different to ex-pat muslims, especially Pakistanis elsewhere.

Tarek Fatah is a reactionary muslim. He reacts against wahabi islamists who dominate the spokesmanship if Muslim Canadians. He gives voice to those voiceless muslims who do not protest Islamists because of the fear of physical threats or, more likely, fear of social boycot by friends and relatives.

I have not read his book but, from what I have read and heard him, he is a moderate muslim who represents modern muslims who want to coexist in a pluralist society on its own terms. He is unlike Irshad Manji, another bete noir of political islamists, who prides in calling herself a Muslim refusnik. Unlike her, I have not seen him criticise either the Quran or Prophet Mohammad.

#105 Posted by HP,

Oh. Looks like your real ire is over Ms 'G'.

Arey Bhai ... why don't you just take me up on my challenge and e-mail her? That woman is a nymphomaniac after a bit of charas - in case you want to know more. Nothing wrong with that. Kaash mein bhi behti ganga mein haath dho leyta but I thought she was my buddy's girl.

#98 Posted by tahir, #99 Posted by tahir
“What you're writing today may make you repent tomorrow. Why must Pakistanis stoop to poking fun at Iqbal of the college days? Learn from the Indians, the Germans and the Iranians who hold Iqbal in great esteem.”
“Nobody can have the same views from childhood until death in advanced age.”

Ret se butt na banaa ai mera achay funkar
Ek Lamhe ko thahr, main tujha patthar laa duon

When he wrote that ‘larkian parrh rahi hain’ shair he already had a Phd. So, there was nothing college-age about that.
The views you develop in you formative years, stay with you. I have not read Iqbal so I will not comment on his philosophy but his life was full of contradictions. He can not be an intellectual stalwart, if he could not sort out what he wanted to pursue. That makes him impressionable and an intellectual dwarf. Please read the shair above and understand that you don’t create idols out of the corporeal. In your lingo, that would be shirk.

Iqbal was an Urdu poet and there is no need for anyone besides the Urdu daan to appreciate him more than what he was. His place as the official philosopher or poet maybe important in Punjab but Sindhi, Bengalis, Pathan, and Baloch wouldn’t hold a brief for him. I have never heard any Indian or German or Iranian praising him for anything. Most of them don’t understand Urdu. A few academicians might like his work but that doesn’t mean all German, Indians, or Iranians liked or loved him.

I would recommend you go to www.iranian.com and post a few of his Persian verses and see the response. He is not a household name in Iran just because one ayatollah wrote a few words abt him, Again, Ret se butt na banaa!

“Miss 'G' cannot be placed higher than Allama Iqbal. There are quite a few here who would agree that your own sense of humour is strange indeed. If someone described the scene, you've descibed the instruments themselves!”

That is your opinion. There is nothing in my post against Iqbal that is comparable to what you wrote abt Ms.Gohar. You are attempting to elevate mockery of a shair to unkind remarks for a living person. The wordplay of his one shair doesn’t equate to maligning or bad mouthing Iqbal. There is nothing wrong in twisting a shair around to have a little fun.


#104 Posted by zeemax
"This person is totally without any ethics or morals."

Wow! Taking over as Internet shoorta? ...The moral police of taliban is stil not hiring.

#98 Posted by tahir,

"Yeh shikayat nahin, hain un ke khazane maamur,
Nahin mehfil mein jinhen baat bhi karne ka shaoor."

I just likened HP to a drameybaaz pony in mela muwaishyan on the other board.

This person is totally without any ethics or morals.

Tahir, I maintain that MAJ's sidekick the Allama was official myth creator to legitimize the farce put into motion by the feudals and colonials invoking the name of Islam and using Muslims as scapegoat to be butchered and be butcherers in the name of religion both during partition and after (due to the event), where their political strength was broken and the status of this nation reduced to "whore of the West" and setting into motion the misuse of religion and "Islam khatray me hei" to undo any and every stride towards social justice for the people by the Pakistan military that got newly incorporated into the establishment thanks to this farce. The Allama was using the name of Islam for fulfilling the West's agenda, a most dispicable misuse of the Quran, for which Allah will judge him.

#95 Posted by izuber on May 23, 2008 9:18:25 pm


True Islamic society is as secular as it gets


umm...either the majority of the world's muslims are not islamic or what you're saying is complete BS..

have you heard of this place called saudi arabia?

Re: # 99
[What you're writing today may make you repent tomorrow.]

Tahir miaN, do you take that fact into consideration while posting those numerous spams?!

Re: # 89
"Thanks for that; now I know exactly who to blame!"

You 'appear' to talk sense and 'pretend' you're intelligent but you'll never see the light by poking fun at the Divine Word.

You must be such a proud little man....

Re: # 86
Mr. HP,

Iqbal's earlier ventures were part of his growing up process. Nobody can have the same views from childhood until death in advanced age.

What you're writing today may make you repent tomorrow. Why must Pakistanis stoop to poking fun at Iqbal of the college days? Learn from the Indians, the Germans and the Iranians who hold Iqbal in great esteem.

Who cares about the knighthood? I've always been suspicious of these labels anyway.

Re: # 81

"I have not read Allah mian Iqbal in details and my knowledge abt his poetry is restricted to a few shairs that I read in some obscure books."
"I do remember that he replaced GH in Ghoray to an 'L' and in the first part he changed Dasht to something...Once you find that word please also find a replacement for Darya and you have an all new shair for some entertainment."

Are you the same person who lectured me earlier about attacking Miss 'G' and then didn't answer when I explained, and now THIS!

Miss 'G' cannot be placed higher than Allama Iqbal. There are quite a few here who would agree that your own sense of humour is strange indeed. If someone described the scene, you've descibed the instruments themselves!

We all look forward to more confessions from the HP-man.

Islamic State?
“……… I have not found a single period that I could in all honesty say I would trade for my 21st-century existence as a Muslim living in a secular democratic society”.
For that matter, why should any body else?
There never was a so called ‘Islamic State’ in history. The five or so officially named Islamic States today are an euphemism for “Religious State” and Islam was never a religion but a code for this complex life.
If at all it is necessary to 'identify' these countries in any way, it would be appropriate to name them Muslim Majority States, for example Muslim Republic of Pakistan or Muslim Republic of Sudan, for that is what they are, peopled by certain 'type' of dogmatic majority.
In terms of universal human values such as equality, dignity, freedom of speech, just to name a few, I would not touch todays Islamic States with a barge pole, now that I have a choice.
But like every thing else, mankind has a habit of ‘transgressing’ the given freedoms--eg exhibiting 11 year old girl’s nude pictures as ART, as in in Australia! Yet there is the freedom to protest against it if squares like me whish to protest.
Therefore, there is some thing to be said about ‘Guided Democracy’! But I hasten to say that this “guidance” however is not to be from any ‘Religion’ professed by the State to dispatch any body to hell by stoning to death.
Rashid

Re: # 85
Their ability to say this is the failure of our people to come up with a proportional level of journalism, it is not "Americans" who say so, it is their press & media.
Now you will ask to make sense here, and it does not take a genius rocket scientist to know that who owns the media in North America for the most part?
Muslims from the sub-continent, middle-east and elsewhere struggle to bring up their off-springs to be a doctor, engineer or scientist while there is nothing wrong with that, but the million dollar question is that if the Muslims don't produce Lawyers, Journalists and Financial Specialists then how do they expect to have their say Legislated, Published or Financed? its worth pondering.
Its time to diversify the upcoming generation in more than medicine and high-tech and participate in other branches of life as well.

True Islamic society is as secular as it gets, secularism does not mean non-existence of a faith system rather it subscribes to equal recognition of all faith based as well as atheist entities while the system of govt. does not impose a faith based value system.
Imposing one’s values on another is not what Islam seeks or propagates, but, like any other system of discipline Islam has its own code of ethics, like decency is observed in USA and if one is found flashing in nude it is prosecutable and punishable under the local laws, carrying open containers of alcohol in public places is restricted by law in majority of jurisdictions, the recent laws concerning lighting or carrying lighted tobacco or smoking is now restricted in major parts of USA, while the Islamic system of governing is applicable to jurisdictions having adopted it to be the rule of the land.
Similarly Islam prescribes certain discipline and code of ethics in a jurisdiction ruled by such laws, while Islam also prescribes that one must abide by the local regulations and the laws of a jurisdiction which is adopted for residence or to conduct business, and, if one finds such regulations to be intolerable or unacceptable they should consider relocating to a jurisdiction where they do not have to face such a hardship its plain and simple and it is an individual’s own choice as to what their preferences are but they can chose either and not both.
As stated in the holy scripture “there is no compulsion in religion” which is self explanatory in all regards and clarifies that when it comes to religion(faith) it is one’s own decision and determination as to what they wish to adopt, practice or follow.
Taking this into account regardless of all that goes on in the non-Islamic USA and Canada they provide the most suitable environment for any faith to flourish and its followers to practice and observe freely.
The rhetoric that is used by the various non-scholarly scholars nowadays appears to contrast the true spirit of Islam as their teachings imply that no one other than those who follow Islam can exist in today’s world, this is a less than literate approach and does no to favor Islam or Muslims as this spreads nothing but a great amount of speculation and hatred by those who envision that Islam and Muslims trying to enforce their value system on those who do not wish to follow Islam, while under the true spirits of Islam this is not what Jihad means or is about, Jihad is one’s ability to exist anywhere in the world under any system and yet assure that they follow the teachings and values of their faith by observing it themselves not by taunting at others or imposing their values on those who are not in the following.
Propagation of Islam has nothing to do with enforcing the values system, if the Muslims of today’s world make themselves presentable to the world in the manner they are expected to by following the prescribed discipline, that will present to the non-Muslims a better picture to explore further which is subject to humanly approach.
While I find North America to be quite accommodating when it comes for one to practice and observe their faith.

re: arjun

London, canada, america...

There too, it is a fight for national recognition.

Nanga pir is highlighting that Muslims in all these countries (and in many other countries yet to be mentioned) are a separate nation.

#85 Posted by NangaPir on May 23, 2008 2:34:26 pm


Whereas all these above fights are for national recognization.


what about the muslims blowing stuff up in london? or planning terrorist attacks in canada...or america?

how many suicide bombs went off against saddam or his army? maybe that's the way to go....

Re: # 86; HP

what you write makes sense (most of the time - clearly one must never say always!)

I am sorry for my part in the misunderstanding between us before

Cheers

Re: # 90

P.S.: these are the same answers I have had from so-called authorities on the subject

as for the question of an average chowkie not having the time....give me a break man.....they seem to be here 24/7 some of them....especially the loud ones......clearly not much happening for them elsewhere in life

Re: # 88; TehsinA sahib
" am afraid that you are in the wrong place if you expect real scholarship and succinct answers to such queries."

au contraire sir, I have had all the answers I needed out of this but thank you for your input anyway

Re: # 80; Zeemax
"if a man stretches out his hands, he can hardly see it! for any to whom Allah giveth not light, there is no light!"

Thanks for that; now I know exactly who to blame!

#18 Posted by akcheema

“I wish someone could elaborate here what Iqbal's message exactly is; what his 'philosophy - if it can be called that' is and whether it is really something new that hadn't been said before”

I am afraid that you are in the wrong place if you expect real scholarship and succinct answers to such queries. Most of us here do not have the time to go and research or have done scholarly work to do justice to questions that you are posing. Answers you get are either conjectures based upon anecdotal information or parroting considered opinions of others. People who are engaged in fundamental research cannot sit on Chowk as they are too busy peeling the onion. If you are interested in that, then form or join a study group, divide up responsibilities and come up with definitive conclusions that could be shared in article form on Chowk.

#85 Posted by NangaPir

That is something Chomsky covered in one of his articles. Perhaps you can read that on his site. There is whole lot more to it than just this.

Like the world is happy that Sadam is no more...
The bottom line is the the world means the WEST and the rest of the chumps are just chumps.

From Suchgup:

Kar lo jo karna hai!

I think Iqbal was a 'go with the flow' type of character. He just couldn't stick to one thing. From Communism to Fascism and Islam to Secularism and from Hindustan to Pakistan, he moved the goal posts in his poetry so quickly and so abruptly that pinning him to one ideology is hard.

Now read this shair:

Larkian Parrh Rahi Hain Angerazi
Dondh li Qoom nay Falah ki Raah

He probably wrote that in 1919 or 1920 but we can see his rather conservative views on women education.

I also read his correspondence with British viceroys and GGs where he practically begged for the British recognition and was so proud when he was made a knight w/o any land in England.

This is funny how in Indian Muslim political life these unsavory characters gained prominence just because they loved the British and the colonial rule. Not to say that the Congress leaders were not gora goochattar but at least they were good at hypocrisy.

After sixty years of independence both countries are still ruled by gora goochatters. With the same characteristics. Indians leaders are masters of Hypocrisy and Pakistanis just blatantly lick it in full public view.

Some things never change!

I admit I did not read the single word so I am not commenting based on any content rather it is a question based on its title:
Can someone explain to me WHY?

The Western media writes like this:

Muslims fight Russians in Chechnia
Muslims fight Hindu majority rule in Kashmir
Muslims guerilla fight the Phillipenes Government
Muslims fight Thailand in South.

Whereas all these above fights are for national recognization.

Then the same media says
Hamas fights Israel whereas it is between mainly Muslims and Jewish state
Hizbullah fights Israel whereas it is between mainly Muslims and Jewish state

Taliban fight Nato whereas it is Muslims against foreign occupier mainly crusaders
Shia fight Allies in Iraq whereas it is Muslims against foreign occupier mainly crusaders
And the list goes on…..

And our intellectuals have NO brain to analyze and figure out how the psychological war is being played. Al jazeera, Jang and all Muslim countries media just say the same way… Why?

I admit I did not read the single word so I am not commenting based on any content rather it is a question based on its title:
Can someone explain to me WHY?

The Western media writes like this:

Muslims fight Russians in Chechnia
Muslims fight Hindu majority rule in Kashmir
Muslims guerilla fight the Phillipenes Government
Muslims fight Thailand in South.

Whereas all these above fights are for national recognization.

Then the same media says
Hamas fights Israel whereas it is between mainly Muslims and Jewish state
Hizbullah fights Israel whereas it is between mainly Muslims and Jewish state

Taliban fight Nato whereas it is Muslims against foreign occupier mainly crusaders
Shia fight Allies in Iraq whereas it is Muslims against foreign occupier mainly crusaders
And the list goes on…..

And our intellectuals have NO brain to analyze and figure out how the psychological war is being played. Al jazeera, Jang and all Muslim countries media just say the same way… Why?

HP #81 ..and then in school there used to be that other..er..variation..to Iqbal's "Khudi ko kar baland itna.." :-)

Actually, it is reassuring that the a large section of the Pakistani population does not take any individual (Iqbal, or anyone else) as the average moron..i mean ideologue..does.

And it is this irreverant attitude that gives the average Pakistani the ability to apply his common sense to issues, rather than parrot some ideological line or the other. And that is why, whenever give the chance to vote in free and fair elections, Pakistanis have given the boot to religious ideologues and lotas. As they did this time. This is why Pakistan is destined to be a great nation - once the forces that empower people rather than some rogue general, ghoonda politician or gun-toting mullah are in place.

HP,

First you have to get the sheyr right, I suppose.

Okay I am going to be honest here. I have not read Allah mian Iqbal in details and my knowledge abt his poetry is restricted to a few shairs that I read in some obscure books.

"Dasht to dasht hain darya bhi na chorey hamnay
Bahr-i zulmaat men daura diy-e ghorey hamnay"

This shair really can be turned in to a really vulgar shair. One Urdu speaking guy once gave me the whole rigmarole on this and I have forgotten that already. I do remember that he replaced GH in Ghoray to an 'L' and in the first part he changed Dasht to something...May be someone here can help to find that word. Hint: that word is really popular on UP nowadays and relates to a human body part.
Once you find that word please also find a replacement for Darya and you have an all new shair for some entertainment.

#78 Posted by masadi,

Thanks. This is why I said to akcheema if he thinks it is unexplained, it was meant to be.

Al-Nour (The Light)

24:40 Or (the Unbelievers' state) is like the depths of darkness in a vast deep ocean, overwhelmed with billow topped by billow, topped by (dark) clouds: depths of darkness, one above another: if a man stretches out his hands, he can hardly see it! for any to whom Allah giveth not light, there is no light!

g'night

Echo writes "The behr-i-Zulmaat or the Ocean of Darkness, referred to in that couplet by Allama Iqbal, is what is known to mariners as the Doldrums."

Read Quran 24:40 regarding what you refer to

The author writes "Fatah reminds us history that Muslims failed for centuries in creating sustainable secular institutions. Secular state is duty bound to guard against religious law taking over society in the guise of reasonable accommodation"

The author is a fool, a new breed of retards that have erupted post 9/11 with Muslim names in order to legitimize to the dimwitted morons in the West that what their governments are doing is based on fact and is for their benefit. Let us ask him what the level of "secularism" was in the West "over the centuries" and he'll discover that until quite recently secualarism as a slogan and legitimizer of the "devil's religion" was non-existent. Further pluralization leads to secularization and Muslim societies of old had greater secularization tendencies because of greater pluralization and autonomy granted to indiginious people who either retained their previous identity or blended over a couple of centuries into becomming Muslim, unlike the European settlers who wiped out the indigeneous populations when they decided to move in large numbers into an area. Finally compared to bureaucratized social systems that parade as "secular systems" but are rule rigged, the handful of rules, within a sea of freedom offered by Islam for every believer as well as non believer makes it much more "secular" compared to the devil's system of worshipping the elite under the guise of freedom... Regarding the so-called Islamic state, these are utopian dreams of fringe groups whose theology has little to do with Islam but which is mainstreamed by the West (whose caricature of Islam, brought to life as self-fulfilling prophecy, they are) for the purpose of making aspects of it a reality to fulfill their perversions on a much larger scale around the globe. Islam's fight is about justice and truth regardless of religious label, it is not about narrow theological formulae or conversions "Christian missionary" style, there is a difference between the private and the public aspect of Islam confusing one for the other "Taliban style" and losing track of the public aspect of it, pushing the distorted private aspect as if it were the public one is the devil's foreplay as he makes his plans to f'ck the Muslims....

hamidm #70 i can see hindu propaganda is working on you. now i hope you are suitably ashamed of yourself, you descendant of a low-caste hindu convert!! your ancestor was a traitor to the natural order of things by trying to escape the caste system!! Did he not realize that he was made a low caste hindu for a reason - namely, because he had done really bad things in his previous incarnation. I bet if you had been in india you would have been secretly applauding the Pakistani cricket team, given this treacherous tendancy you inherited from your treacherous low-caste hindu ancestor!!

Now look at master jay thakeray - a proud high caste hindu who not only was loyal to the natural order of things. His piety in his previous life has been rewarded with his high caste status!!

PS: Just kidding. :-) but you see my point, i hope.

And on your way, do stop and ponder over how things HAVE changed at CHOWK a bit!

Can we return to discussing #17 (and my other posts) and why the writer of this piece is so interested in this Canada-settled Tarek Fatah?

echoboom: just calling me a "kutta" and writing some irrelevant gibberish pulled off the internet doesnt change the logic of what i wrote.

#42 Hamidm2 miaN

[...... most pathans are not homosexuals, but they see nothing wrong with homosexuality and are simply bisexaul - it is part of their islam ..... i am sure that you know that babur, inspite of all the women he had, loved only baburi - a boy ........ i have also heard that homsexuality is rampant in al-lah's kingdom of saudi arabia, not because the men are homosexuals, but simply because they don't have any access to women ..... and over time this behavior becomes acceptable without people fessing up to it ........ the most virulent opponents of homosexuality are closet homos like the catholic priests, evangelical ministers, edgar j hoover, prophets and our own mullahs .......]

LOL!

Hamidm2 sahib, you got a point there, especially regarding the NWFP. I quote the following from Lawrence James’ book on British Raj. (The reference to Forster is to E. M. Forster, who wrote A Passage to India (1924).)

“Contemporary law banned any explicit references in fiction to sexual contacts between British and Indians. Forster knew about them, probably in some detail, through his shipboard meeting in 1912 with Lieutenant Kenneth Seabright of the Queen’s Own (Royal West Kent Regiment), with whom he later stayed at Peshawar. Seabright was a homosexual with an enthusiastic and insatiable appetite for teenage boys, and he seems intuitively to have recognized Forster’s latent homosexuality, as did some young Indians. The young subaltern, who struck Forster as a Byronic figure, was already at work on an epic poem which recorded in lubricious detail his encounters with various Indian partners, whose colour excited him. Paradise for Seabright was the North-west Frontier, where his tastes were abundantly cared for:

And now the scene shifted and I passed
From sensuous Bengal to fierce Peshawar
An Asiatic stronghold where each flower
Of boyhood planted in its restless soil
Is – ipso facto – ready to despoil
(Or be despoiled by) someone else; they yarn
Indeed so has it that the young Pathan
Thinks it peculiar if you would pass
Him by without some reference to his arse.”

hamidm2,

That's no argument. The Chechens and the Uzbeks are no Arabs either, nor the Persians.

Re: # 69

zeemax,

.... i could give you another explanation of this famous iqbal couplet, but i won't because you seem to worship this man and i don't want to offend you .....

... in any case, we moslems need to stop pining for the good old days and get on the business of living today and preparing for tomorrow ..... besides, let's not forget that most of us on this forum are low caste hindoo converts who had nothing to do with the arab, turkic and persian conquests ..... we converted either to curry favor with the invaders or because we were simply tired of being kicked around by upper class hindoos ....... thank god that we are not arabs ...

#66 Posted by echoboom,

Thank you Echoboom. This is amazing background. No doubt Iqbal used 'behr-i-Zulmaat' and 'ghorey' in much more meaning than what it appears to the naked eye.

After your elaboration, the couplet becomes a hundred times more powerful than what it is already for the uninformed/not so informed like me.

Re: # 66

echo,

... so how do you expect to regain the moon god's kingdom on earth ? ... is baitullah mehsud and his band of smelly tibesmen going to restore the glory of the this 'unmatched world power' ?

... wake up and smell the starbucks .... i don't think that wild-eyed barbarians like the mongols and bedouins are going to be able to ride out of the desert and conquer the world simply by waving their swords and a book ...... riding horses onto the beach and into the dark sea is not going to impress nuclear submarines and aircraft carriers .... the ummah might be better served if they learn to use utensils, indoor plumbing and deodrant before they embark on their quest to conquer the world ......

#65 Posted by hamidm2,

hamidm2, now listen carefully. I am not mourning for the Lal Masjid dead. I was morning for YOU and the tahmeds.

Would you believe that?

Zeemax:

The behr-i-Zulmaat or the Ocean of Darkness, referred to in that couplet by Allama Iqbal, is what is known to mariners as the Doldrums.

These are the regions in the Pacific as well as the Atlantic below the equator. The weather here was either of dead calm and hence no Sail or extreme hurricanes hence boats getting capsized.

Sailors avoided going south of the Equator and it is for this reason that Africa was called the "Dark" Continent. The utlity of the Northern Star as a Navigation tool got less and less as the ship headed South of the Equator. Hence the fear of getting in the Doldrums. The Portugese
learned the use of the Astralabe , hence you find their firstColonies South of the Equator & so Vasco De Gama's cape route.

The Doldrums are also called the Horse Latitudes. They are known thus because the Colonisers who got caught in the region unburdened their boats for lighter travel. Horses were thus thrown overboard. The Muslims, because of the Astralabe & their acumen in seafaring were in a much better position to navigate. Hence their influence as far as Indonesia but almost none south of middle Africa.

Allama Iqbal has so succinctly and beautifully encapsulated this huge subject in just two lines. The metaphorical use of Zulmaat can just not go unnoticed and unappreciated as well. It refers to the Dead-calm & Listlessness as well as the Storms which the Muslims encountered in their pursuit of
becoming the World Power yet to be unmatched in the annals of human history.

P.S: This has been written and addresed to you so that the Abu-Jahilyaas , the Murtids and the Catonment-Kuttas here get a hint of what the westoxicated education does to their scummed minds.

Re: # 61

zeemax,

... stop mournig for the terrorists of lal masjid - they would have bred more suiciders and homiciders ...... and this stuff has been going on in malakand and swat since the seventies and they were thrown the bone of sharia in the early ninetees ..... it just goes to show that one should not feed a rabid dog because he will come back for more .....

.... tnsm, taliban and all these jihadi groups are sister organizations of the jamat-i-islami which is waiting in the wings to surround lahore ..... i think we need some predators over ichra and mansoora ......

Re: # 52

zeemax,

.... personally, i would like to see nato troops going after these barbarians on both sides of the border ..... i think that like all other vermin they can and should be exterminated ..... it might take a while but the civilized people of the world will not allow these animals to destroy what it took adam's and eve's offspring six thousand years to build .....

.... the tribal pathan belongs to a sub-human species that has to be tamed and domesticated ......

speaking of islamofascism...prophetboy...the democratically elected government has agreed to the whole sharia thing..what's up with that?

I thought pakis were moderates who didn't want sharia and it was only musharraf, training jihadis all by himself in his basement, who was the problem...

so no more predictions from zrafique about how the drone bombings will stop?

#58 Posted by majumdar,

majumdar, this assertion is so silly that you (and many others) see any Pakistani Taliban advance as a trick being played by musharraf in connivance with Taliban leadership to fool USA. Why don't you apply Occam's razor instead and see that Pakistani Taliban are fighting fair and square and have been gaining territory since 2005?

Mangal Bagh's capture of Bara Agency (a sub-agency of the Khyber Agency) is just the most recent development. One may ask why Bara Agency? Mangal Bagh was based in Landi Kotal on the Afghan border but came down and captured Bara. Why not capture Landi Kotal itself which is a much larger area?

The answer is, because Bara Agency is actually a suburb of Peshawar - like people go there for shopping for crockery and electronics/appliances/apparel everyday. It is like capturing a part of Peshawar.

... as for mourning Lal Masjid, I genuinely mourned that event because I knew exactly this outcome would come about - specifically rebellion in Swat and Waziristan and suicide bombings in major cites. I am on record saying that at the time and many people remember and have quoted me.