Chasing a Mirage: The Tragic Illusion of an Islamic State

Okay I am going to be honest here. I have not read Allah mian Iqbal in details and my knowledge abt his poetry is restricted to a few shairs that I read in some obscure books.

"Dasht to dasht hain darya bhi na chorey hamnay
Bahr-i zulmaat men daura diy-e ghorey hamnay"

This shair really can be turned in to a really vulgar shair. One Urdu speaking guy once gave me the whole rigmarole on this and I have forgotten that already. I do remember that he replaced GH in Ghoray to an 'L' and in the first part he changed Dasht to something...May be someone here can help to find that word. Hint: that word is really popular on UP nowadays and relates to a human body part.
Once you find that word please also find a replacement for Darya and you have an all new shair for some entertainment.

HP,

First you have to get the sheyr right, I suppose.

HP #81 ..and then in school there used to be that other..er..variation..to Iqbal's "Khudi ko kar baland itna.." :-)

Actually, it is reassuring that the a large section of the Pakistani population does not take any individual (Iqbal, or anyone else) as the average moron..i mean ideologue..does.

And it is this irreverant attitude that gives the average Pakistani the ability to apply his common sense to issues, rather than parrot some ideological line or the other. And that is why, whenever give the chance to vote in free and fair elections, Pakistanis have given the boot to religious ideologues and lotas. As they did this time. This is why Pakistan is destined to be a great nation - once the forces that empower people rather than some rogue general, ghoonda politician or gun-toting mullah are in place.

I admit I did not read the single word so I am not commenting based on any content rather it is a question based on its title:
Can someone explain to me WHY?

The Western media writes like this:

Muslims fight Russians in Chechnia
Muslims fight Hindu majority rule in Kashmir
Muslims guerilla fight the Phillipenes Government
Muslims fight Thailand in South.

Whereas all these above fights are for national recognization.

Then the same media says
Hamas fights Israel whereas it is between mainly Muslims and Jewish state
Hizbullah fights Israel whereas it is between mainly Muslims and Jewish state

Taliban fight Nato whereas it is Muslims against foreign occupier mainly crusaders
Shia fight Allies in Iraq whereas it is Muslims against foreign occupier mainly crusaders
And the list goes on…..

And our intellectuals have NO brain to analyze and figure out how the psychological war is being played. Al jazeera, Jang and all Muslim countries media just say the same way… Why?

I admit I did not read the single word so I am not commenting based on any content rather it is a question based on its title:
Can someone explain to me WHY?

The Western media writes like this:

Muslims fight Russians in Chechnia
Muslims fight Hindu majority rule in Kashmir
Muslims guerilla fight the Phillipenes Government
Muslims fight Thailand in South.

Whereas all these above fights are for national recognization.

Then the same media says
Hamas fights Israel whereas it is between mainly Muslims and Jewish state
Hizbullah fights Israel whereas it is between mainly Muslims and Jewish state

Taliban fight Nato whereas it is Muslims against foreign occupier mainly crusaders
Shia fight Allies in Iraq whereas it is Muslims against foreign occupier mainly crusaders
And the list goes on…..

And our intellectuals have NO brain to analyze and figure out how the psychological war is being played. Al jazeera, Jang and all Muslim countries media just say the same way… Why?

I think Iqbal was a 'go with the flow' type of character. He just couldn't stick to one thing. From Communism to Fascism and Islam to Secularism and from Hindustan to Pakistan, he moved the goal posts in his poetry so quickly and so abruptly that pinning him to one ideology is hard.

Now read this shair:

Larkian Parrh Rahi Hain Angerazi
Dondh li Qoom nay Falah ki Raah

He probably wrote that in 1919 or 1920 but we can see his rather conservative views on women education.

I also read his correspondence with British viceroys and GGs where he practically begged for the British recognition and was so proud when he was made a knight w/o any land in England.

This is funny how in Indian Muslim political life these unsavory characters gained prominence just because they loved the British and the colonial rule. Not to say that the Congress leaders were not gora goochattar but at least they were good at hypocrisy.

After sixty years of independence both countries are still ruled by gora goochatters. With the same characteristics. Indians leaders are masters of Hypocrisy and Pakistanis just blatantly lick it in full public view.

Some things never change!

#85 Posted by NangaPir

That is something Chomsky covered in one of his articles. Perhaps you can read that on his site. There is whole lot more to it than just this.

Like the world is happy that Sadam is no more...
The bottom line is the the world means the WEST and the rest of the chumps are just chumps.

From Suchgup:

Kar lo jo karna hai!

#18 Posted by akcheema

“I wish someone could elaborate here what Iqbal's message exactly is; what his 'philosophy - if it can be called that' is and whether it is really something new that hadn't been said before”

I am afraid that you are in the wrong place if you expect real scholarship and succinct answers to such queries. Most of us here do not have the time to go and research or have done scholarly work to do justice to questions that you are posing. Answers you get are either conjectures based upon anecdotal information or parroting considered opinions of others. People who are engaged in fundamental research cannot sit on Chowk as they are too busy peeling the onion. If you are interested in that, then form or join a study group, divide up responsibilities and come up with definitive conclusions that could be shared in article form on Chowk.

Re: # 80; Zeemax
"if a man stretches out his hands, he can hardly see it! for any to whom Allah giveth not light, there is no light!"

Thanks for that; now I know exactly who to blame!

Re: # 88; TehsinA sahib
" am afraid that you are in the wrong place if you expect real scholarship and succinct answers to such queries."

au contraire sir, I have had all the answers I needed out of this but thank you for your input anyway

Re: # 90

P.S.: these are the same answers I have had from so-called authorities on the subject

as for the question of an average chowkie not having the time....give me a break man.....they seem to be here 24/7 some of them....especially the loud ones......clearly not much happening for them elsewhere in life

Re: # 86; HP

what you write makes sense (most of the time - clearly one must never say always!)

I am sorry for my part in the misunderstanding between us before

Cheers

#85 Posted by NangaPir on May 23, 2008 2:34:26 pm


Whereas all these above fights are for national recognization.


what about the muslims blowing stuff up in london? or planning terrorist attacks in canada...or america?

how many suicide bombs went off against saddam or his army? maybe that's the way to go....

re: arjun

London, canada, america...

There too, it is a fight for national recognition.

Nanga pir is highlighting that Muslims in all these countries (and in many other countries yet to be mentioned) are a separate nation.

True Islamic society is as secular as it gets, secularism does not mean non-existence of a faith system rather it subscribes to equal recognition of all faith based as well as atheist entities while the system of govt. does not impose a faith based value system.
Imposing one’s values on another is not what Islam seeks or propagates, but, like any other system of discipline Islam has its own code of ethics, like decency is observed in USA and if one is found flashing in nude it is prosecutable and punishable under the local laws, carrying open containers of alcohol in public places is restricted by law in majority of jurisdictions, the recent laws concerning lighting or carrying lighted tobacco or smoking is now restricted in major parts of USA, while the Islamic system of governing is applicable to jurisdictions having adopted it to be the rule of the land.
Similarly Islam prescribes certain discipline and code of ethics in a jurisdiction ruled by such laws, while Islam also prescribes that one must abide by the local regulations and the laws of a jurisdiction which is adopted for residence or to conduct business, and, if one finds such regulations to be intolerable or unacceptable they should consider relocating to a jurisdiction where they do not have to face such a hardship its plain and simple and it is an individual’s own choice as to what their preferences are but they can chose either and not both.
As stated in the holy scripture “there is no compulsion in religion” which is self explanatory in all regards and clarifies that when it comes to religion(faith) it is one’s own decision and determination as to what they wish to adopt, practice or follow.
Taking this into account regardless of all that goes on in the non-Islamic USA and Canada they provide the most suitable environment for any faith to flourish and its followers to practice and observe freely.
The rhetoric that is used by the various non-scholarly scholars nowadays appears to contrast the true spirit of Islam as their teachings imply that no one other than those who follow Islam can exist in today’s world, this is a less than literate approach and does no to favor Islam or Muslims as this spreads nothing but a great amount of speculation and hatred by those who envision that Islam and Muslims trying to enforce their value system on those who do not wish to follow Islam, while under the true spirits of Islam this is not what Jihad means or is about, Jihad is one’s ability to exist anywhere in the world under any system and yet assure that they follow the teachings and values of their faith by observing it themselves not by taunting at others or imposing their values on those who are not in the following.
Propagation of Islam has nothing to do with enforcing the values system, if the Muslims of today’s world make themselves presentable to the world in the manner they are expected to by following the prescribed discipline, that will present to the non-Muslims a better picture to explore further which is subject to humanly approach.
While I find North America to be quite accommodating when it comes for one to practice and observe their faith.

Re: # 85
Their ability to say this is the failure of our people to come up with a proportional level of journalism, it is not "Americans" who say so, it is their press & media.
Now you will ask to make sense here, and it does not take a genius rocket scientist to know that who owns the media in North America for the most part?
Muslims from the sub-continent, middle-east and elsewhere struggle to bring up their off-springs to be a doctor, engineer or scientist while there is nothing wrong with that, but the million dollar question is that if the Muslims don't produce Lawyers, Journalists and Financial Specialists then how do they expect to have their say Legislated, Published or Financed? its worth pondering.
Its time to diversify the upcoming generation in more than medicine and high-tech and participate in other branches of life as well.