Fatima Bhutto Fighting for Justice

zeemax#328:

"Wasn't there the Evacuee Property distribution to immigrants in India? There was one in Pakistan and quite a fair one though it took more than a decade to finally settle."

Yes, there was, but it was merely an allocation of the evaquee property left by the Muslims, which was of much lower value than the property left by the Hindus and Sikhs in Pakistan, both West and East. There was no transfer of the net balance from Pakistan to India. This is why the Hindus and Sikhs got only a fraction of what they left in Pakistan and your grandparents got a grand kothi in Lahore.


"And did India hand over any State assets as share to Pakistan? To my knowledge Pakistan just got whatever was on its soil and nothing else."

Yes, they did hand over (I think the sum was Rs. 55 crores)Pakistan's share of the assets after Gandhi went on a hunger strike in support of Pakistan. This was, in fact, the final straw that broke the Hindu patience with him and led one of them to the foolish act of assasinating him.

bjkumar#326:

You did not address the questions that I had asked:
_Why did Gandhi not go on a hunger strike to prevent Muslim support for Pakistan, a stunt he was ready to perform at the drop of anyone's topee?

-Why did he not go on a hunger strike at Rawalpindi in March 1947 when the butchery in Punjab started (against Sikhs in particular) or Lahore later, but did so in Calcutta in August/September?

I did not say that he was dishonest, but he certainly knew when his weapon of "maun-vrat" would work and when it won't.

You asked:

"Even if we assume that by following Gandhiji, the Indian Hindus came out a cropper - well, WHY did they follow him anyway?!"

Because he spoke their language: Ram Rajya and his (false?) claim to follow the Bhagwat Geeta and his daily prarthanas at the Birla house.

Re: # 327

Zeena,

If I remember correctly, last time I addressed you as 'behen ji'.

You don't know anything about me, what I do and how might I think I contribute positively to our beloved country so please don't go there.

As for my nic/name, with all due respect, many here do the same. Have you extended your opinion to nics like Zeemax, Golgfinger, HP and many others? So why pick on me?

I respect you simply for your love for the country that you voluntarily left that still haunts your imagination. At least that is something we have in common.

Regards

... it took more than a decade to finally settle but possession was given almost immediately. Formal transfers took the time mentioned.

My own grandparents clan got a huge kothi of about two acres on prime property right opposite Ganga Ram Hospital on Mozang Road, in exchange for their Amritsar property. It is now split up and turned into office towers.

#323 Posted by dost_mittar,

and this is why he went on a strike to force Indian govt. to give Pakistan its share of the assets without linking it with the balancing of private assets left by Hindu-Sikhs in Pakistan and Muslims in India.

Wasn't there the Evacuee Property distribution to immigrants in India? There was one in Pakistan and quite a fair one though it took more than a decade to finally settle.

And did India hand over any State assets as share to Pakistan? To my knowledge Pakistan just got whatever was on its soil and nothing else. I believe there are still hundreds of millions of outstanding Rupee claims on India in Pakistan books for non-transferred funds.

#293 Posted by pakistan3
pakistan3
Whoever you're. I never apply self righteous attitude for myself. This is the word I used for you in my prior posts. And now you're tunring the tables for me by using the same lingo for me...Wonderful, WoW...

You are the one who initiated all this with me for no reason , no reason at all.

Why is it a crime in your eyes to live over seas? Why you have a disturbed attitude and behavior for overseas Pakistanis? Why in every other post of your's you are just pathetically belittling over seas Pakistanis?

Did any over sea Pakistani step on your tail? or did anyone of them kick your raw nerve? or did anyone of them kick your arse?

That's the main reason you're badly bruised..

Anyway, do you know? or do you have any idea? that majority of Pakistanis families are being dependent on their over seas surrogates..........for their financial needs..

Do you know? How much currency is being generated by those over seas Pakistanis inside Pakistan daily? that they seem to be an asset to Pakistan....

But, you and your stunted mind growth doesn't let you see all this...

Anyway, whatever I do for Pakistan, I don't owe you my explainations for all your idiotic rantings.
And please, don't mention my services for my country, Pakistan. You're surely NOT the one that I wish to serve based on your nationality...you're typical fanatic person who should get out of Pakistan, if, Pakistan needs to progress. Your mind set is just a destruction for Pakistan and a set back.....

My burn centers and other services doen't need to be mentioned here on Front Page....It is you who started this nonsense out of your own insanity and craziness.

It is you who in your own airheadedness are just backlashing poor and hard working Pakistanis who are those poor people from different villages and from cities working hard day and night to provide basic needs for their families back home....And here you're insultin them in every post of your's.

How much more shameless you could be?

If you have some issues with over seas Pakistani, try not to take it on everyone here by your senseless and pathetic self righteous rantings.....

Enough, I am not going to respond to your pathetic insults anymore.............

Re: # 323

DM-jee, I respect your age and stuff. However, I am aware that you, like Sanatani, were directly affected by the tragedy of the Partition - like countless other individuals on both sides of the border, including the Dr. Gill. Therefore, it is virtually impossible for any of you (in my view) to make an objective evaluation of Gandhiji - who many victims of the Partition blamed for "pampering Muslims" - as the term went.

Gandhiji was many things to many people - but one thing he was not was - he was not a dishonest person. I have especially resented the attempt on the part of some on this site to present him as such a person. I have every reason to believe that such individuals are either dishonest themselves or have their own compulsions for doing so.

In case it is necessary to explain, let me tell you that "over my dead body!" is a rhetorical phrase and is not to be taken literally! Please also keep in mind that at the time you were a child yourself and therefore highly susceptible to views expressed to you by other people who were even less objective.

I agree that the support for Gandhiji among the Indian Muslims of the 1920's - 1930's was lukewarm at best. However, that for the Muslim League was not much better - it was just as lukewarm. Things changed in the aftermath of the Congress Rule of several states after the sweeping victories in 1936-37 elections. The massive use of the spoils system by the Congressmen scared off many Mussulmans (who were apprehensive to begin with) and sent them into Jinnah's camp. Many Muslim grievances were exaggerated but the complainants feared (wrongly) they were witnessing a Hindu Raj being created. I personally see an analogy with how the South African whites had felt (a few decades later) when the black South Africans were ready to assume power. Jinnah was of course very obliging in building up that apprehension. When that racist Churchil came to power, he had not the slightest hesitation in taking advantage of the Hindu-Muslim divide - because his objective was to prolong the Raj as much as possible. Along with the Jinnah, the numerous "Princes" and small royalties were also VERY willing to collaborate with the Britishers for their own selfish interests.

Every one of those entities watched out for their own narrow, selfish interests (Jinnah most of all!)...

Except for Gandhiji! He tried to help every insaan and he put his own neck on line in the process.

Also, BTW, let me ask you what I asked Sanatani - to which he was unable to provide an answer.

Even if we assume that by following Gandhiji, the Indian Hindus came out a cropper - well, WHY did they follow him anyway?!

Was he holding a gun to their heads?

#316 Posted by Sanatani on May 24, 2008 6:52:04 am


Because Shri Godse thought strategically and not tactically.


yeah...props to that godse dude...

Because Masanmuthu will not see beyond Harimau's casteist abuse as the rantings of an extremely marginalised and now oppressed caste and see OBC cruelty as an expression of Sanatan Dharam.

Sanatani:

I agree with a lot of things you say. But I think you are mistaken if you are referring to me in the above comment.

bjkumar:

Sorry to butt in but I think that your worship of Mahatma Gandhi is over done. Gandhi had said that India would be divided over his dead body. So, why was his body is one piece when the country was divided? This is because he knew that his techniques of bullying people through coercive "hunger-strikes" would work on the Hindu mind and maybe even on the British but not on Jinnah or Muslims. This is why he never went on a hunger strike to ask Jinnah or Muslims to give up the demand for Pakistan; this is why he went to Calcutta to stop Hindus from pushing out Muslims while the real carnage was taking place in Lahore; and this is why he went on a strike to force Indian govt. to give Pakistan its share of the assets without linking it with the balancing of private assets left by Hindu-Sikhs in Pakistan and Muslims in India.

#321 Posted by Goldfinger
"If we had had even one merely decent human being for a leader , whether a politician or dictator, and if he had really meant doing well by the people, things could very easily have been different now"

This will never happen. There has never been one person in the history who changed the face of a country. That happens with a process and support from many others. If thats what you are waiting for, maybe you wanna Google 'Waiting for Godot'.

Re: # 289

HP

I quite agree with your post. I really do not wish to knock any one down, however it seems quite absurd to me that some people get infatuated with one political figure or another in our history due to every one's desperate search to find a hero when none has appeared so far. Thats all. If we had had even one merely decent human being for a leader (leave alone a scimitar brandishing chest thumping superman), whether a politician or dictator, and if he had really meant doing well by the people, things could very easily have been different now, and everything would not be spiraling down into the abyss the way it is. Unfortunately all our wanna be heroes have been more of the ilk of Bonnie and Clyde and Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid then anything else.

for some of these achievements not to go to his head

p.s for anyone who might get the impression that I am "obsessed" with a politician, the obsession is not with the person but given the political structure of this nation, what one person was able to achieve, it was an achievement of enormous proportions, not a work complete or 100%- only a fool would think in that "all or none" fashion- and as HP implies fools abound in our nation regarding the political and the power structure- given the rudimentary nature of our institutions, the guy was "a nation" all by himself, now he was no saint in the Abrahamic tradition for some of these achievements to go to his head, but those flaws are microscopic compared to what he achieved for this nation, the seed of democracy and the voice of the people in the equation of power, were his doing. When the shaitan and his minions in the Pakistan Army can clench their fists and threaten the people and their representatives, why should not the people's rep tell them to go F off, only to be labelled a meglomaniac? This guy goldfinger has a personal grudge against him because of political difference, his is a military supporter or a supporter of one of their propped up "political parties"

goldfinger writes "Along with jetsetted the world try also the rather more interesting pastimes of hypocrisy, megalomania, misrule, planning to murder political foes, destruction of economy and consorting to have the nation split apart and civil war...."

Not only did I answer your ad hominem bs in the multiple posts from the past, the only "smoke" that exists in these discussions are you smoky morals that ignore what that person achieved for this nation and picks on his personal flaws based on your preceived "values". Judging a leader by the mullah standard you want him to personify the shariah before implementing it, that is not how justice and law work, personal flaws are no reason why social justice should be ignored as "hypocrisy", the civil war was the doing not of ZAB but the Pakistan Army and without the constitution that he gave us all talk of nation and democracy would be futile. The damage he caused to military rule that continued till his death, the peacemaking with the neighbours, the extraction of the nation from a whore of the West status, incorporating the people into the power equation, and his ability to move the masses and turn the discourse away from "Islam khatray me hai" towards social issues, taking Pakistan from a beggar status to one of leadership in the third world, just ONE of these is enough to overshadow all of his jetsetting and designer suits and other flaws. You pick on the person and not on what he did for this nation regarding the rights of the people and democracy. Now when you see the condition of this "neo liberal" economy and still blame him for destroying it via a totally opposite route, tells me that you are the damn hypocrite. Answer these arguments instead of attacking his person like a goddamned mullah...

Re: # 316

[Because of vermin like you and your ilk. Self haters and back stabbers all.

Because Shri Godse thought strategically and not tactically.

Because the Sardar loved Gandhi more than he loved the country.

Because Harimau Iyer will never see beyond reservations and attempt Hindu Dharam Asmita.

Because Masanmuthu will not see beyond Harimau's casteist abuse as the rantings of an extremely marginalised and now oppressed caste and see OBC cruelty as an expression of Sanatan Dharam.

Because all hindus who otherwise behave as Bhangis have this strange notion of caste superiority.]

Sanatani my dear, with so many hurdles present already to the process of building what would be a "Hindu Pakistan", why do you single out the Mahatma Gandhi as the cause of your catastrophe?

If Hindus lack a "vision", is that Gandhiji's fault? He did give us a vision - only it was ABOVE the vision of Hindu unity that you appear to seek - it was the vision of uniting mankind. Jinnah had the narrower vision. Therefore, it failed. You wanted Gandhiji to descend to the level of a Hindu Jinnah. That is impossible because that is not what he was about. And by some magic, if that WERE possible, I assure you he would have failed like the Jinnah did.

If you got what you call "vermins and self-haters" shouldn't you be focussing on them rather than beating up on Gandhiji?

How do those "vermins and self-haters" get empowered? Aren't those elected by the masses? Do you even believe in a democratic setup?

My dear, you need to sort your own thoughts through before you go about on that spree of mouthing foolishness about Gandhiji.