Fatima Bhutto Fighting for Justice

I respect Fatima Bhutto and find the article a very touching account of her turbulent life but having said that I do feel that there is alot of undue hype that has been created around her. There are thousands if not millions of young Pakistani women who have lost their fathers or other loved ones in even more cruel ways, they never got justice. Rather most of them remain trapped in the viscious circle of injustice, violence and exploitation. I think we really need to focus on issues rather than personalities.

well written, i loved it.

well written, i loved it.

well written, i loved it.

Granted the family she comes from falls under a massive legacy and theres hardly any escaping it, but I really dont think she is worth all the hype.

Whatever I've read read of hers or any telly interviews just seem fruitless attempts and go round in circles and dont quite 'get nowhere'. Maybe its because she's young and has far to go? But 19 yr old Bilawal has proved more articulate and fiesty than her.

Mr Dalrymple (Bill I suppose):

Thanks for another excellent article on Pakistan. As for Fatima it is sad that see has seen so much turmoil in her country and her family. I hope she breaks the Bhutto mold by learning the value of humility.

Ejaz

Re: # 356
Cheema sahib your assertion about falsified claims is quite true there was a lot of wheeling and dealing that took place.

On UP, Sadna quotes Rafiq Zakaria who spoke to A.V.Alexander, one of the members of the Cabinet Mission

[Jinnah stood his ground and asserted : 'Fear is the most potent weapon; I am sure the rulers in either state will be wise enough to conduct themselves properly. They will be afraid of retaliation against their co-religionists.']

The telling confession of the subcontinent’s first Islamic terrorist – and his worship of fear as a weapon!

Re: # 354; by zeemax
"I don't think that is true in case of Pakistan. All claims were thoroughly verified before formal transfers."

As I have said before, a big chunk of my family never made it across the border. However, that didn't stop a maternal grand-uncle to put in claims etc...he was already on the 'right' side of the border and well established as a businessman.....looked down upon for a short while but then all was normal....his kids inherited a fortune when he died and it wasn't all due to 'hard work'....I can quote several other examples from within and outside the family

zee:

How could they be verified without a joint indo-pak mechanism to do so? As far as I am aware, no such mechanism was operationalised. But if there was such a mechanism and it worked, then I take back what I said.

#353 Posted by dost_mittar,

I don't think that is true in case of Pakistan. All claims were thoroughly verified before formal transfers.

zeemax#352:

"I have close family friends from Lucknow, who could only get their claim in Mianwali, though a substantial one, where no one speaks Urdu ... let alone the Lucknavi variety."

I dont know about the particular family but some of these families made bogus claims, as their properties in India were in the hands of their brothers left behind in India and were not evaquee properties. Since there was no mechanism for verifying claims, all claims were accepted as submitted. The same happened in India where some people submitted exaggerated claims and others did not.

#332 Posted by dost_mittar,

It was a huge mess, but as per you say the Muslim immigrants got a better deal, though there were huge cultural shocks. I have close family friends from Lucknow, who could only get their claim in Mianwali, though a substantial one, where no one speaks Urdu ... let alone the Lucknavi variety.

They are still there though, They came to love Mianwali!

Re: # 334

Madan Lal Pahwa to self,

Vikhane chande si Hindu Smaj marya hanin.

Wanted to show Hindu Samaj is not dead

Re: # 322 "This will never happen. There has never been one person in the history who changed the face of a country. That happens with a process and support from many others. If thats what you are waiting for, maybe you wanna Google 'Waiting for Godot'."

HP I think that could be a pathetic excuse for all the charlatans from the who's who of our rogues gallery that have ruled us so far...the least any great leader could do is to put his people on the right path, instead of devoting all his time and energy to loot, plunder and personal aggrandizement as one after the other all of our chosen and unchosen leaders have been doing so far. After they all get booted out one way or another, then they come out with the sort of lame excuses like "process" and "support" that you have put forth. After all who puts the processes into motion? And how much more support do they really need?

Or can it be rephrased as something like this. Reservation policy has managed to successfully obliterate the pride associated with calling oneself an upper caste Hindu...

Sita Ram Goel famous author please see Voice of Dharma www.bharatvani.org

Ahutosh Lahiri was the head of the Delhi unit of the Hindu Mahasabha the only leader who defied Gandhi's call for peace when he fasted to death to save Muslimsin Delhi was amongst those nearly killed in the post gandhi riots organised by the congress

Dr Moonje was the Maharashtra head of the HM

Raja Narendra Nath (Bhaiji) was the Punjab head of the HM

Sanatani

Sanatani,

You should be happy right...the UCs of TN have managed to masquerade as OBCs and still maintain the status quo.

Sanatani,

Who is SitaRamji?

Regards

Re: # 324

Well Masan bhai,

in that case I apologise.

But if not you then it is lot of people other than you.

Upper Caste: Bhen Maa Beti in salon ko reservation choorhe chamar bhangi

SC: Bhen Maa Beti in salon ne oppresiion ki yeh hai asli choorhe chamar bhangi

OBC: Actually we have been unfairly oppressed by UC's unki Bhen Maa Beti and we rightly oppress SC's choorhe chamar bhangi

Actually OBC's are best

as in Backward Rajput, Backward Baniya, Backward Maratha, Backward Sindhi (only found in Sindh if the Sindhi Muslims were told Amils and Bhaibands are backward in Tamil Nadu they would all collectively die of shock or lose their mental balance AND thus achieve Jinnahpur) e.g. Rakesh Hinduja becomes Asst Jail warden under OBC quota or Raheja or Hiranandani.

That was the very good thing about the RSS where all Hindus were equal where mutual respect for each other was taught to all castes.

But somehow their anti intellectualism or what SitaRam ji used to term as the opposite of Baudhik Kshatriyata.

I think Sun Tzu and Arthshastra should be serious reading for them.

Sanatani

Re: # 342

Zeena,

I read your post. In that case, we are both in it together.

Thumbs up to you and Good Luck

We'll keep trying to do our bit on the "inside" as it were

and Khuda Hafiz to you to

#341 by majumdar

Mosquitoes breed wherever there is greenry and water, so I dont see why they could not have bred in AKP.

The presence (or the lack thereof) of mosquitoes is more dependent on the maintenance and less on greenery and water. Majumdar bhai, when you're in Hyderabad the next time, I'll take you to some eateries on the Necklace Road by the Hussain Sagar lake, one of the filthiest water bodies I've ever seen. You will be surprised.

Re:[[I respect you simply for your love for the country that you voluntarily left that still haunts your imagination. At least that is something we have in common.]]

Re:#330 pakistan3
No Sir that doesn't haunt me at all, because I didn't commit any crime. Rather that is the pride that I take because God has given me a chance to explore this world and to spread Pakistan's image infront of others in a positive way.

Ask those who feel NO Shame by living in Pakistan and looting poor Pakistanis money and sucking their blood with no guilt...........

Yes, those corrupt Politicians and army generals are real leaches living in Pakistan and scucking the last drop of poors.....

I am proud to live abroad that has made me a strong person mentally to combat all this nonsense that's going on in current Pakistan.....I can see clearly what you're unable to see.

But, let me borrow you my eyes and heart and then you'll be able to see what your eyes with bias are unable to see and you'll be able to feel what your stoned heart with darkness is unable to feel.
bye and Khuda Hafiz

Harishbhai,

Mosquitoes breed wherever there is greenry and water, so I dont see why they could not have bred in AKP.

Regards

#338 by majumdar

'Cos she was denied penicillin by MKG, not by the Brits.

Majumdar bhai, please stop mixing up issues. MKG's penchant for nature cure is a whole different story, perhaps for another occasion.

I have twice contracted malaria myself although I have never lived in slums (or Aga Khan's palace for that matter).

If your home was anywhere comparable to the AKP as per Yasser's (and your own) claim, perhaps you wouldn't have contracted it.

Arjun mian,

Had Godse not whacked the G-man, maybe the movie never would have got started!!!

Regards

Harishbhai,

(The fact that his wife died)

'Cos she was denied penicillin by MKG, not by the Brits.

(afflicted with malaria (a disease more likely to inflict those living in filthy slums)

I have twice contracted malaria myself although I have never lived in slums (or Aga Khan's palace for that matter).

Regards

he he he...

18,500 Pakistanis deprived of billions


NEW DELHI, May 25: About 18,560 Pakistanis have been deprived of billions of rupees accumulated on returns of shares in Indian firms they had bought before 1965.

India seized the shares bought by Pakistanis in 558 Indian companies after the 1965 war. These shares are lying with the Office of Custodians of Enemy Properties under the Indian Ministry of Home Affairs following a notification issued by the government in 1968.

The Indian government is undecided about the fate of these shares.

Media reports, citing the record of the department, said that the capitalised amount of five shareholders in Indian companies was about Rs109.6 billion. These companies are the high-profile Indian entities such as Wipro, Cipla, five companies of the Tata group, ACC and three companies of the DCM group.

Similarly, two Pakistani stakeholders have 10 million shares of Wipro, the world’s largest independent R&D services provider, valued at about Rs50.4 billion. Thirty-four Pakistanis have shares in pharmaceutical major Cipla worth Rs48.2 billion.

In four companies of Tata Motors, Tata Power, Tata Steel, Tata Chemicals and Tata Coffee, Pakistanis have shares worth Rs48 million.

Pakistanis invested in Indian companies including Hindustan Unilever, ITC DLF, Bajaj Electricals, CSCE, Reliance energies, EIH, Aditya Birla, Nuvo, India Cement, Dalmia Cement and Ballarpur Industries before 1965.

According to an assessment of the custodian office, the value of the shares owned by Pakistanis in the listed 45 Indian companies is Rs18 billion.

Indian newspaper the Economic Times contested the figures of the custodian department and said that Pakistanis had far more shares in the companies than revealed by the department.

The custodians have recorded 1.6 million Pakistani shares in Wipro. But, the company sources say there are 10 million Pakistani shares.

Similarly, there are 23 million shares of Pakistanis in Cipla, but the department has recorded only 1.1 million shares, the paper said.—APP

i?
the foolish act of assasinating him.


foolish why? I think it was a good thing..if godse hadn't whacked gandhi, the most fucking boring movie in the world would never have ended...

#252 by MantoLives

And mind you ... I only came in after Harish mian claimed that he had never heard of Aga Khan's palace being the place of Gandhi's incarceration which it certainly was.

Yasser mian, now your dishonesty is really shining through. First of all, I did not claim that Gandhi was never imprisoned at the Aga Khan palace. After all the debates we've had through the years where you made it a point to highlight this particular episode, it would be foolish of me to deny it outright. It is your own inadequate comprehension skills that you thought so. I was merely contesting your assumption that Gandhi by virtue of having been incarcerated there was treated like the Aga Khan himself would be. The fact that his wife died of and he himself was afflicted with malaria (a disease more likely to inflict those living in filthy slums) there belies your claim that he was accorded 5-star treatment there.

The bottom line is that you have been called on your claim that Gandhi was only imprisoned twice. The biggest and perhaps the unkindest slap would be the total refutation with proof of your claim that Gandhi was treated like a king at the AKP.

DM sahib,

(Why did he not go on a hunger strike at Rawalpindi) & ( but he certainly knew when his weapon of "maun-vrat" would work)

Had he tried the stunt in Pindi, the good Pindians would have put him on a permanent maun vrat.

(led one of them to the foolish act of assasinating him.)

Right. The assassination was worse than a crime, it was a blunder.

Regards

Re#331:

I meant "marn vrat", not maun vrat.

zeemax#328:

"Wasn't there the Evacuee Property distribution to immigrants in India? There was one in Pakistan and quite a fair one though it took more than a decade to finally settle."

Yes, there was, but it was merely an allocation of the evaquee property left by the Muslims, which was of much lower value than the property left by the Hindus and Sikhs in Pakistan, both West and East. There was no transfer of the net balance from Pakistan to India. This is why the Hindus and Sikhs got only a fraction of what they left in Pakistan and your grandparents got a grand kothi in Lahore.


"And did India hand over any State assets as share to Pakistan? To my knowledge Pakistan just got whatever was on its soil and nothing else."

Yes, they did hand over (I think the sum was Rs. 55 crores)Pakistan's share of the assets after Gandhi went on a hunger strike in support of Pakistan. This was, in fact, the final straw that broke the Hindu patience with him and led one of them to the foolish act of assasinating him.

bjkumar#326:

You did not address the questions that I had asked:
_Why did Gandhi not go on a hunger strike to prevent Muslim support for Pakistan, a stunt he was ready to perform at the drop of anyone's topee?

-Why did he not go on a hunger strike at Rawalpindi in March 1947 when the butchery in Punjab started (against Sikhs in particular) or Lahore later, but did so in Calcutta in August/September?

I did not say that he was dishonest, but he certainly knew when his weapon of "maun-vrat" would work and when it won't.

You asked:

"Even if we assume that by following Gandhiji, the Indian Hindus came out a cropper - well, WHY did they follow him anyway?!"

Because he spoke their language: Ram Rajya and his (false?) claim to follow the Bhagwat Geeta and his daily prarthanas at the Birla house.

Re: # 327

Zeena,

If I remember correctly, last time I addressed you as 'behen ji'.

You don't know anything about me, what I do and how might I think I contribute positively to our beloved country so please don't go there.

As for my nic/name, with all due respect, many here do the same. Have you extended your opinion to nics like Zeemax, Golgfinger, HP and many others? So why pick on me?

I respect you simply for your love for the country that you voluntarily left that still haunts your imagination. At least that is something we have in common.

Regards

... it took more than a decade to finally settle but possession was given almost immediately. Formal transfers took the time mentioned.

My own grandparents clan got a huge kothi of about two acres on prime property right opposite Ganga Ram Hospital on Mozang Road, in exchange for their Amritsar property. It is now split up and turned into office towers.

#323 Posted by dost_mittar,

and this is why he went on a strike to force Indian govt. to give Pakistan its share of the assets without linking it with the balancing of private assets left by Hindu-Sikhs in Pakistan and Muslims in India.

Wasn't there the Evacuee Property distribution to immigrants in India? There was one in Pakistan and quite a fair one though it took more than a decade to finally settle.

And did India hand over any State assets as share to Pakistan? To my knowledge Pakistan just got whatever was on its soil and nothing else. I believe there are still hundreds of millions of outstanding Rupee claims on India in Pakistan books for non-transferred funds.

#293 Posted by pakistan3
pakistan3
Whoever you're. I never apply self righteous attitude for myself. This is the word I used for you in my prior posts. And now you're tunring the tables for me by using the same lingo for me...Wonderful, WoW...

You are the one who initiated all this with me for no reason , no reason at all.

Why is it a crime in your eyes to live over seas? Why you have a disturbed attitude and behavior for overseas Pakistanis? Why in every other post of your's you are just pathetically belittling over seas Pakistanis?

Did any over sea Pakistani step on your tail? or did anyone of them kick your raw nerve? or did anyone of them kick your arse?

That's the main reason you're badly bruised..

Anyway, do you know? or do you have any idea? that majority of Pakistanis families are being dependent on their over seas surrogates..........for their financial needs..

Do you know? How much currency is being generated by those over seas Pakistanis inside Pakistan daily? that they seem to be an asset to Pakistan....

But, you and your stunted mind growth doesn't let you see all this...

Anyway, whatever I do for Pakistan, I don't owe you my explainations for all your idiotic rantings.
And please, don't mention my services for my country, Pakistan. You're surely NOT the one that I wish to serve based on your nationality...you're typical fanatic person who should get out of Pakistan, if, Pakistan needs to progress. Your mind set is just a destruction for Pakistan and a set back.....

My burn centers and other services doen't need to be mentioned here on Front Page....It is you who started this nonsense out of your own insanity and craziness.

It is you who in your own airheadedness are just backlashing poor and hard working Pakistanis who are those poor people from different villages and from cities working hard day and night to provide basic needs for their families back home....And here you're insultin them in every post of your's.

How much more shameless you could be?

If you have some issues with over seas Pakistani, try not to take it on everyone here by your senseless and pathetic self righteous rantings.....

Enough, I am not going to respond to your pathetic insults anymore.............

Re: # 323

DM-jee, I respect your age and stuff. However, I am aware that you, like Sanatani, were directly affected by the tragedy of the Partition - like countless other individuals on both sides of the border, including the Dr. Gill. Therefore, it is virtually impossible for any of you (in my view) to make an objective evaluation of Gandhiji - who many victims of the Partition blamed for "pampering Muslims" - as the term went.

Gandhiji was many things to many people - but one thing he was not was - he was not a dishonest person. I have especially resented the attempt on the part of some on this site to present him as such a person. I have every reason to believe that such individuals are either dishonest themselves or have their own compulsions for doing so.

In case it is necessary to explain, let me tell you that "over my dead body!" is a rhetorical phrase and is not to be taken literally! Please also keep in mind that at the time you were a child yourself and therefore highly susceptible to views expressed to you by other people who were even less objective.

I agree that the support for Gandhiji among the Indian Muslims of the 1920's - 1930's was lukewarm at best. However, that for the Muslim League was not much better - it was just as lukewarm. Things changed in the aftermath of the Congress Rule of several states after the sweeping victories in 1936-37 elections. The massive use of the spoils system by the Congressmen scared off many Mussulmans (who were apprehensive to begin with) and sent them into Jinnah's camp. Many Muslim grievances were exaggerated but the complainants feared (wrongly) they were witnessing a Hindu Raj being created. I personally see an analogy with how the South African whites had felt (a few decades later) when the black South Africans were ready to assume power. Jinnah was of course very obliging in building up that apprehension. When that racist Churchil came to power, he had not the slightest hesitation in taking advantage of the Hindu-Muslim divide - because his objective was to prolong the Raj as much as possible. Along with the Jinnah, the numerous "Princes" and small royalties were also VERY willing to collaborate with the Britishers for their own selfish interests.

Every one of those entities watched out for their own narrow, selfish interests (Jinnah most of all!)...

Except for Gandhiji! He tried to help every insaan and he put his own neck on line in the process.

Also, BTW, let me ask you what I asked Sanatani - to which he was unable to provide an answer.

Even if we assume that by following Gandhiji, the Indian Hindus came out a cropper - well, WHY did they follow him anyway?!

Was he holding a gun to their heads?

#316 Posted by Sanatani on May 24, 2008 6:52:04 am


Because Shri Godse thought strategically and not tactically.


yeah...props to that godse dude...

Because Masanmuthu will not see beyond Harimau's casteist abuse as the rantings of an extremely marginalised and now oppressed caste and see OBC cruelty as an expression of Sanatan Dharam.

Sanatani:

I agree with a lot of things you say. But I think you are mistaken if you are referring to me in the above comment.

bjkumar:

Sorry to butt in but I think that your worship of Mahatma Gandhi is over done. Gandhi had said that India would be divided over his dead body. So, why was his body is one piece when the country was divided? This is because he knew that his techniques of bullying people through coercive "hunger-strikes" would work on the Hindu mind and maybe even on the British but not on Jinnah or Muslims. This is why he never went on a hunger strike to ask Jinnah or Muslims to give up the demand for Pakistan; this is why he went to Calcutta to stop Hindus from pushing out Muslims while the real carnage was taking place in Lahore; and this is why he went on a strike to force Indian govt. to give Pakistan its share of the assets without linking it with the balancing of private assets left by Hindu-Sikhs in Pakistan and Muslims in India.

#321 Posted by Goldfinger
"If we had had even one merely decent human being for a leader , whether a politician or dictator, and if he had really meant doing well by the people, things could very easily have been different now"

This will never happen. There has never been one person in the history who changed the face of a country. That happens with a process and support from many others. If thats what you are waiting for, maybe you wanna Google 'Waiting for Godot'.

Re: # 289

HP

I quite agree with your post. I really do not wish to knock any one down, however it seems quite absurd to me that some people get infatuated with one political figure or another in our history due to every one's desperate search to find a hero when none has appeared so far. Thats all. If we had had even one merely decent human being for a leader (leave alone a scimitar brandishing chest thumping superman), whether a politician or dictator, and if he had really meant doing well by the people, things could very easily have been different now, and everything would not be spiraling down into the abyss the way it is. Unfortunately all our wanna be heroes have been more of the ilk of Bonnie and Clyde and Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid then anything else.

for some of these achievements not to go to his head

p.s for anyone who might get the impression that I am "obsessed" with a politician, the obsession is not with the person but given the political structure of this nation, what one person was able to achieve, it was an achievement of enormous proportions, not a work complete or 100%- only a fool would think in that "all or none" fashion- and as HP implies fools abound in our nation regarding the political and the power structure- given the rudimentary nature of our institutions, the guy was "a nation" all by himself, now he was no saint in the Abrahamic tradition for some of these achievements to go to his head, but those flaws are microscopic compared to what he achieved for this nation, the seed of democracy and the voice of the people in the equation of power, were his doing. When the shaitan and his minions in the Pakistan Army can clench their fists and threaten the people and their representatives, why should not the people's rep tell them to go F off, only to be labelled a meglomaniac? This guy goldfinger has a personal grudge against him because of political difference, his is a military supporter or a supporter of one of their propped up "political parties"

goldfinger writes "Along with jetsetted the world try also the rather more interesting pastimes of hypocrisy, megalomania, misrule, planning to murder political foes, destruction of economy and consorting to have the nation split apart and civil war...."

Not only did I answer your ad hominem bs in the multiple posts from the past, the only "smoke" that exists in these discussions are you smoky morals that ignore what that person achieved for this nation and picks on his personal flaws based on your preceived "values". Judging a leader by the mullah standard you want him to personify the shariah before implementing it, that is not how justice and law work, personal flaws are no reason why social justice should be ignored as "hypocrisy", the civil war was the doing not of ZAB but the Pakistan Army and without the constitution that he gave us all talk of nation and democracy would be futile. The damage he caused to military rule that continued till his death, the peacemaking with the neighbours, the extraction of the nation from a whore of the West status, incorporating the people into the power equation, and his ability to move the masses and turn the discourse away from "Islam khatray me hai" towards social issues, taking Pakistan from a beggar status to one of leadership in the third world, just ONE of these is enough to overshadow all of his jetsetting and designer suits and other flaws. You pick on the person and not on what he did for this nation regarding the rights of the people and democracy. Now when you see the condition of this "neo liberal" economy and still blame him for destroying it via a totally opposite route, tells me that you are the damn hypocrite. Answer these arguments instead of attacking his person like a goddamned mullah...

Re: # 316

[Because of vermin like you and your ilk. Self haters and back stabbers all.

Because Shri Godse thought strategically and not tactically.

Because the Sardar loved Gandhi more than he loved the country.

Because Harimau Iyer will never see beyond reservations and attempt Hindu Dharam Asmita.

Because Masanmuthu will not see beyond Harimau's casteist abuse as the rantings of an extremely marginalised and now oppressed caste and see OBC cruelty as an expression of Sanatan Dharam.

Because all hindus who otherwise behave as Bhangis have this strange notion of caste superiority.]

Sanatani my dear, with so many hurdles present already to the process of building what would be a "Hindu Pakistan", why do you single out the Mahatma Gandhi as the cause of your catastrophe?

If Hindus lack a "vision", is that Gandhiji's fault? He did give us a vision - only it was ABOVE the vision of Hindu unity that you appear to seek - it was the vision of uniting mankind. Jinnah had the narrower vision. Therefore, it failed. You wanted Gandhiji to descend to the level of a Hindu Jinnah. That is impossible because that is not what he was about. And by some magic, if that WERE possible, I assure you he would have failed like the Jinnah did.

If you got what you call "vermins and self-haters" shouldn't you be focussing on them rather than beating up on Gandhiji?

How do those "vermins and self-haters" get empowered? Aren't those elected by the masses? Do you even believe in a democratic setup?

My dear, you need to sort your own thoughts through before you go about on that spree of mouthing foolishness about Gandhiji.

Re: # 310

Because of vermin like you and your ilk. Self haters and back stabbers all.

Because Shri Godse thought strategically and not tactically.

Because the Sardar loved Gandhi more than he loved the country.

Because Harimau Iyer will never see beyond reservations and attempt Hindu Dharam Asmita.

Because Masanmuthu will not see beyond Harimau's casteist abuse as the rantings of an extremely marginalised and now oppressed caste and see OBC cruelty as an expression of Sanatan Dharam.

Because all hindus who otherwise behave as Bhangis have this strange notion of caste superiority.

Sanatani

Re: # 309

Ashutosh Lahiri and Dr Shyama Prasad Mukherjee and to about 50% Veer Savarkar, Dr Moonje and Raja Narendra Nath (Bhaiji). I would include Babaseaheb except he was opposed to Hindu Dharam and Not Hindu Samaj and the Sanatan Dharam.

Our gr8tst leaders came from East Begal now we get Jhothi Basu and Phuddudeb.

Sanatani

Re: # 309

Ashutosh Lahiri and Dr Shyama Prasad Mukherjee and to about 50% Veer Savarkar, Dr Moonje and Raja Narendra Nath (Bhaiji). I would include Babaseaheb except he was opposed to Hindu Dharam and Not Hindu Samaj and the Sanatan Dharam.

Our gr8tst leaders came from East Begal now we get Jhothi Basu and Phuddudeb.

Sanatani

Re: # 307

That is again a lie. Not J but his gang were clear that they wanted a Pak well clear of kaffirs and they achieved that. But it was your champion the Mahatma without an atma who ensured that the Hindus were left at the mercy of the Muslims in Pakistan after saying "Partition over my dead body"

The reason the Muslims stayed back was that there was no concerted effort to deport them the way it happened in Pak.

It was Hindu pullisamnity and Sikh ferocity that forced Muslai out of East Punjab.

Given a free hand the Sardars would have made a horrible example out of all other Muslims in India.

If we had a leader like Narendra Bhai then all this would not have happened.

What you are saying about his popularity is true buit in 1947 he was a failed messiah and that Godse's blunder in killing him allowed his acolytes to refurbish him as a sort of an avtar, more on that later.

But I shall give you a hint. The Hindus stoopid fkng belief in all religions being equal that applies to murderous political ideologies like chritianity and Islam. Notice the number of hindus who will go to pir ke mazaar and light candles in churches.

Sanatani

BJ,

Sanatani is right. Islam is totally different from what you perceive it to be, and a real problem for you. Fight it as Sanatani suggests. He is on the dot. Sanatani is my best friend and my best enemy because of this reason that he knows what he's up against. You don't!

#304 Posted by bjkumar,

I am not a Mullah. Guess you missed the posts where I said I'm not even a pious person to the farthest of your imaginations.

You're totally off-track BJ.

Re: # 308

[But could not muster the courage to take it to a logical conclusion.]

Why not?!

Re: # 308

[People like you are a curse to the Sanatan Dharam, Hindu Samaj and Bharat Mata.]

Sanatani my dear, can you name ANY Indian leaders whom you would consider as "not a curse to the Sanatan Dharam, Hindu Samaj and Bharat Mata"?!

Re: # 217

You are an intelectually dishonest person.

That message of Mussalman apartheid is from the koran.

The problem is not Muslai it is Islam.

We are all better off with what happened due to Mr Jinnah But could not muster the courage to take it to a logical conclusion.

There is no bortherhood of muslai and non-muslai there are only momin and kaffir.

But you will never accpet it even when it stares you on the face. West Punjab, East Bengal, Sind, Baluchistan and NWFP.

Now we will lose Bengal and North East to Bangladesh and fkrs like you will say "It is all because of Hindu Communalism".

That is why we say we will lose not because we cannot defeat the muslai but because you will stab us in the back.

People like you are a curse to the Sanatan Dharam, Hindu Samaj and Bharat Mata.

I do not know about Shri J but I do hope you do rot in hell.

Sanatani

Re: # 303

Sanatani my dear,

Let's leave aside Gandhiji's unorthodox experiments for cures to physical ailments and his brahamcharya! Those were not the characteristics which made him popular among the masses.

Face it, my dear, it is not Gandhiji you are truly upset at. You are really upset at the Indian masses - the vast droves of ordinary Hindus - who connected with him and who followed him IN SPITE of his unorthodox views on side issues.

What is YOUR explanation for it, sir?! Do you have any special insight or knowledge which the average insaan did not have and YET they followed him nevertheless?!

And BTW, the vast majority of Indian Muslims preferred to stay put in India because they LIKED it there! It is called voting with your feet. It does not matter that many of their forefathers were misled (or junooned) into voting for Pakistan. It was a stupid thing to do and those same people, had they been alive, would now cry like a baby to look at the end results.

As far as the butchery and other hardships that the Partition-displaced people underwent (on both sides of the border) are concerned, the blame should be placed squarely upon the people who committed those atrocities and perhaps equally on the people who brought that event about!

Your Shri Jinnah being the chief culprit!

#297 Posted by zeemax on May 24, 2008 3:32:02 am


These local Pakistanis are plate pissers.


you work for the SBP and yet call for the overthrow of the government and sharia rule...

Correction in #304

Change Fatima Jinnah to Fatima BHUTTO!

Kambakhat Jinnah must be haunting me! Rats!

Re: # 302

Au contraire, my dear Zee, it is you who is being devious!

In fact, the little sis detests mullahs and although she is innocent, perhaps a bit like Fatima Jinnah – she can never fall to their trickery and chaalbazi!

So forget any dreams of taking advantage of her innocence and of fooling and co-opting her! Stop pretending to be a well-wisher while in reality pursuing your very own (foolish) agenda.

It has been well-demonstrated, through countless posts from my little sis that – given half an opportunity – she would pluck (your) graying mullah beards all the way from their roots…she would pull so hard that not only the beard but anything else connected with it – perhaps the entrails as well as your (superficial) indicators of (false) masculinity – would come yanked out! And then she would happily offer the same to her pet canine for its morning repast.

Therefore, you ought to - for the sake of physical integrity alone - cease and desist!

Re: # 194

Abe Manto Chod de,

Yeh sab hamare desh ke Gandhu wadi choootieeya hai.

For the record:

1) The kasturba thing is true.

2) His children hated him he could not become father to his own children and became father of our nation.

3) He was a faddist having bizzare notions of what constitutes truth and he did experiments with the same like Shri CV Raman did with various lab apparati. The chief way of doing these experiments were with other people lives like if I want to learn surgery without the benefit of a teacher and use live human beings e.g. the hapless Hindus massacred in the Moplah riots.

4) That he was a racist and a caste bigot is well known. His championing of the obonoxious Tamil Brahmin practices was shocking to say the least.

5) What is not well known is his megalomania the need to be leader of all at any cost. His fight with Netaji is well known. The fact he let Bhagat Singh hang when he could have saved him. His assuming leadership of all Indians when there was a passionate opposition to him from a great majority cutting accross caste and religion.

6) There was no gr8 moral imperative in the 1st world war. Yet he behaved as a recruiting sargeant of the Brits in the same when men like Veer Savarkar, Lala Hardayal etc. braved odds to fight the brits in any way they could. In the second world war where there was gr8 moral imperative that of defeating National Socialism he ended up peddling bizzare theories like the Jews should voluntarily go to their deaths smiling.

If the above does not show a perverse mentality I would wonder what does. If your country suffers from following a peadophile murderer at least it is because you are brainwashed into believing him as an apostle of god, I wonder what our excuse is of following a man who not only made fanciful interpretaions of our holy books but insulted our heroes.

In short Gandhi was a bizzare sort of a human vermin whos succesfully peddled a lot of snake oil to a large sections of our society and these idiots have bought it as the elixir of eternal life.

You do not know the bizzareness of some more of his followers like Mashruwala and his anti Vanaspati movement. Yes that is anti Hydrogenated Vegetable Oil movement. Google it and see if links come out you will be shocked out of your wits as to what Gandhianism is about?

Long live Shri J ling Live partition tis a pity we could not send all our muslai on a one way ticket across the border.

Sanatani

#301 Posted by bjkumar,

BJ, Sir, I think it's a little presumptive on your part that you think you can fool Zeena over this sis thing. She knows very well what you stand for. Your repeating this is adding insult to injury for Zeena, as I see it.

Re: # 296

Pakistan3, the little sis has a heart of gold and when everything is said and done, that's all that remains and counts - not the superficial labels!

Re: # 298

[After my interactions here on Chowk, one thing I have learned about Pakistan is that it is no less pluralist and no less democractic than any other country]

...and then you woke up, of course!

#298 Posted by anil,

Anil Saheb, anyone who calls Pakistanis unwashed masses, is certainly not pro-Pakistan. Re ana, she is a pure Pakistani. She would never insult Pakistan or Pakistanis.

Re democratic/pluralist etc, these are just semantics. These are often used by Pakistanis such as hamidm2, tahmed and many others in pretense for pandering to anti-Pakistan sentiments. If these people were in the least pluralistic or democratic, they would not condemn a very large segment of the population which had to resort to guns and bombs to have their point of view known. There was no other way. And they won at great cost to themselves and to everyone else.

These people are libero-fascists, not democratic. I am perhaps the only democratic Pakistani on Chowk.

Re: # 297

Zeemax Sahib:

From my room with a view on Chowk, I find Pakistanis here at Chowk to be just as pluralist as people from anywhere else. The opinions vastly differ from Hamidm Sahib to yourself, but calling for example Hamidm sahib, Ana and others "not" pro-Pakistani does not do justice to Pakistan. After my interactions here on Chowk, one thing I have learned about Pakistan is that it is no less pluralist and no less democractic than any other country, including one on the East side of its border.

#294 Posted by anil,

Let me ask you a question. How many locally located Pakistanis have you seen supporting Pro-Pakistan views as some (few) overseas Pakistanis? As it is, there are very few locally located Pakistanis on the FP forum. I would say the Pro-Pakistan Pakistanis local or overseas are vastly outnumbered here. There are more Pakistanis on Unplugged and ALL of them are anti-Pakistan or look down upon it.

These local Pakistanis are plate pissers. They eat off Pakistan's plate after either having failed to move or failed everywhere else in trying to make a decent living, and then piss on Pakistan at the same time.

The harsh responses are an outcome of that.

pakistan3,

I am sympathetic to your views about Overseas Pakistanis. Most of them become pineapples (brown outside-white inside). I share your general opinion. There are dozens of them here. Zeena is NOT one of those. There are a few others as well like Urstruly. Then there are some who actually moved back and are as committed as you such as masadi and bulleya. Some retaliate, some don't. I myself was an Overseas Pakistani but moved back because there's nothing like your own country, and one must never knock their own country. Not many people are in a position or circumstances are able to do that even if they wanted to.

My friend, Zeena is no one to be steamrolled. She gives back equally or more as given. That doesn't detract anything from her working in Pakistan's interests in ALL areas where she can, wherever she may be.

Re: # 293

to add to that, we need realistic people to help us build this country and not those "overseas Pakistanis" that see the fantasy that is Pakistan for them (because of some guilt complex they harbor) and not Pakistan the Reality.

Allah Nigehban

Zeena:

Your actions have spoken many times louder. Is it necessary to use harsher words with others?

Re: # 290

Zeemax,

I have read this woman's rants before. Totally uncalled for if I am allowed to say this.

Accusing average Pakistanis for "not working hard enough" is proposterous. And before you tell me about her burns hospital or any other achievements, good as they may be, donot justify her attitude.

We in Pakistan, presumably that includes you too, have gone through difficult times and still are, but we stuck around. I am sure if Zeena decides to return, Pakistan will welcome her with open arms. Until such time, she should keep her self righteous opinions to herself.

As for the language used by this woman against many before, believe you me I am capable of matching her with no issues whatsoever if that is what she chooses.

I am sure we'll talk again on the subject.

Until then, Allah Nigehban.

#283 zeemax
Thanks for your correct statement.

#282 Re:pakistan3
Yes,I do support Hillary Clinton and that's my perorgative to strongly support whomever I feel better for all of us.

And where ever I live , just remember one thing...I am all for my country,Pakistan.

#283 zeemax
Thanks for your correct statement.

#282 Re:pakistan3
Yes,I do support Hillary Clinton and that's my perorgative to strongly support whomever I feel better for all of us.

And where ever I live , just remember one thing...I am all for my country,Pakistan.

#284 Posted by pakistan3,

This business makes me angry when people living overseas try to dictate what I should or shouldn't do in my own country.

Zeena feels more strongly about Pakistan than MANY Pakistanis living in Pakistan itself. Stick around and you will know the character of most Pakistanis on this forum.

#279 Posted by Goldfinger

While I agree with you that obsession with politicians is unhealthy, I also believe that no matter what their shortcomings, they are invariably better than the non political characters that descend on the throne brandishing their bright shining scimitars, wearing colorful stripes on the chests, and are only answerable to a bunch of others like them, but just a notch below in rank.

When you climb down from Empyrean to empirical, you will notice that the last messiah or one person that presumably tried to change the world passed away eons ago. Since then humanity has to deal with the mere mortals and as we know they are not perfect. The politicians collect all the scars, scotches, good looks, and quality suits on their way to the stardom.

While Bhutto had many problems, like the rest of the politicians the world over, he was a wee bit better in at least one regard. There was some one who could have taken him down and he did. But when the god’s gift to the citizenry took over, the people did not even have anyone but God left to take him down.

In Pakistan, we like to believe that when a civilian becomes the PM, the era of democracy ushers in and all of a sudden, we want that PM to sell his properties, his suits, stay away from drinking and if you are of a particular bent, offer prayers five times a day.

Pakistan, its politicians, Judges, lawyers, and the wardiposh still have to learn a lot about democracy. But as they say, you can’t learn a new trade without making a few mistakes on the way. Consider the Bhuttos both the father and the daughter, the Son in Law, the Sundance kid and Butch Cassidy of our country as our mistakes that would eventually get us to a point when we would believe that we have learned from the mistakes and we have a democratic country. Even at that point, we still would not have the perfect one that you so feverishly desire, to lead us.

Sorry for this rambling post but the crux of the matter is that there is no point in abusing civilian politicians when your only other choice is some scimitar wielding, god's gift who is a master blaster of every language and every diction due to his degreed education at kakul.

I hope you post often.

Re: # 223 Rr. Arjun hope you behave yourself so will not be banned again shortly.
Yes as you said S & P ratiing down grading was not bad but Moody down grading hurt market and circuit breakers were in action. There one problem in rating as it is very biased ( full of indians in both organization), Hope you will agree to that.

Re: # 223 Rr. Arjun hope you behave yourself so will not be banned again shortly.
Yes as you said S & P ratiing down grading was not bad but Moody down grading hurt market and circuit breakers were in action. There one problem in rating as it is very biased ( full of indians in both organization), Hope you will agree to that.

Re: # 223 Rr. Arjun hope you behave yourself so will not be banned again shortly.
Yes as you said S & P ratiing down grading was not bad but Moody down grading hurt market and circuit breakers were in action. There one problem in rating as it is very biased ( full of indians in both organization), Hope you will agree to that.

Re: # 223 Rr. Arjun hope you behave yourself so will not be banned again shortly.
Yes as you said S & P ratiing down grading was not bad but Moody down grading hurt market and circuit breakers were in action. There one problem in rating as it is very biased ( full of indians in both organization), Hope you will agree to that.

Re: # 283

Zeemax,

Yes I joined a month or so ago.

I take your advice wrt Zeena. This business makes me angry when people living overseas try to dictate what I should or shouldn't do in my own country.

Allah Nigehban

pakistan3,

Zeena Bhabi sey panga liya tau pachtao gey ... you're new I guess!

Re: # 281

Zeena,

(pakistan3 aka multiple nicks baigharat)

I can assure you this is the only nic I have.

(because of shameless and baigharat people like you who feel no shame , absolutely no shame when it comes to American SLAVERY, you close your eyes and beg in front of America for making ends meet.)

I live, work and contribute in Pakistan. May I ask where you live? I recently came across your rants supporting Hilary Clinton.

Need I say more about anything else you wrote?

RE:#124 pakistan3
pakistan3 aka multiple nicks baigharat

You want to know why I am ashamed and sad? because of shameless and baigharat people like you who feel no shame , absolutely no shame when it comes to American SLAVERY, you close your eyes and beg in front of America for making ends meet.....

Do you even care Pakistan was sold to Americans just few years after getting freedom from Britishers? Why?
Just b/c of morons like you who're pathologically sheepish who don't have nerves and minds to run their own country in accurate ways and are so much used to of first Brit's slavery followed by American Salvery.....

Pakistan is down the hell just because of sissies like you who hiding behind anon nick with no courage even to reveal his/her identity taking pot shots on those good people who are not in Pakistan, but are working hard day and night and helping Pakistan in every way possible to revive Pakistan's torn down image......we're those patriots who are feeling heartaches for Pakistan's helplessness in front of dirty dictators, dirty politicians and Pakistan's MASTER.....

Do you know? each and every Pakistani and their generations to come are dependent on American Aid...And they don't even have any courage and strength to stand on their own like their next door India....

Do you know? India is now almost a super power and China next door is already a super power, these two countries are new Asian tigers which can look in to the eyes to other super powers with their integrity and self respect, which Pakistan lost by accpeting happily American Slavery......

And BTW are you owner of Pakistan? Those who're living abroad have more right to Pakistan than cowards like you who're always begging infront of American aid....

Pakistanis like you don't like to work , they know Americans will always take care of your needs......and anytime you'll have financial problem, your master America is there to meet your basic needs.....you're born slaves....

Just think about it...
Mr.Pakistan3, my foot.....

Beej Yaar, I read a couple of pieces written about her in the NYTimes after BB’s death. It is nauseating that these people really believe that they are the rightful owners of all of Pakistanis and the only job suitable for them is to be the rulers. Her garbage about all kinds of theories about who killed her father, without any proof or substantiation is just a load of bull. May be her step mother had a hand in Murtaza’s death? Now even that decoration piece wants to be nothing less than a ruler. Do these people have any friggin shame?

Anil Yaar, Masadi Sahib is very passionate about Pakistani politics but sometimes his passion makes him nutty to fall into a deep peculiarity to place bets on a losing mare. I don’t know what he sees in Fatima. I think he is easily impressed. As a proud Pakistani, I have much higher standards.

Re: # 260 says Masadi:"I write facts about the man which you counter with "he jetsetted around the globe" as rebuttal, needless to say, you're a certified fool."

Along with jetsetted the world try also the rather more interesting pastimes of hypocrisy, megalomania, misrule, planning to murder political foes, destruction of economy and consorting to have the nation split apart and civil war. Not your fault though, probably the smoke is making you to remember things only partially.

Re: # 276
Kulharee Sahib:

"....uncles ... and Masadi..."

Please do not make Massaddi Mian an uncle. He is so good for nothing, and then now he would useless uncle on top of it.

#276 Kulharee

Yaar, that's highly unfair. First, Ms. Fatima Bhutto is not a politician but a poet. Second, she has shown no interest in any of those shady deals which Pakistani politicians, khakis, mullahs, etc. make left and right. Her interest is limited to bringing to light the circumstances of her dad's death and hopefully - and this is clearly a long shot - bring to some sort of justice those who were responsible. My good wishes and prayers are with her.

Sometimes, you Pakistanis - especially the males - can be so cruel that I am glad to disclaim any association with you all!

Fatima, don’t listen to uncles Ras and Masadi, listen to uncle Kulharee. Learn to cook and do laundry like 98% women in your country do. Your family has sacrificed enough for this country, and have also looted it for more than their fair share. It’s time for a new and different leadership. We are waiting for someone who can stand upto the religious and army thugs. Bhuttos have proven to be ball-less schmucks. Your grandpa gave into Mullahs and declared a perfectly alright community outside the fold of Islam, your aunt (may she rest is peace) according to you was responsible for your Father’s death. Why the freck do you think that we should trust another one from Bhutto family? What if you turn out to be worse than your grandpa and aunt? Your family has a very poor track record – your aunt left her teenage son in-charge of a political party as if it was your father’s sultanate. If you want to really help Pakistanis, go and teach at an elementary school. Pakistan needs good and dedicated teachers like Masadi.

tahmed (#93),

Here’s my take on things: Early on, you and I used to discuss topics. We had different opinions but all was fine – no issues.

Things went south when you made some very lewd, third-rate comments about me (involving me and a female chowkie) … while unleashing a morality tirade. At one point you were not above dragging Mrs. Sattar in your tirade. I was taken by surprise by your accusations … but told you - in clear language - about your incorrect assumptions … and what you should do with your misplaced morality agenda.

This episode played out repeatedly on several boards, over time. At one point you even tried to blame me for supposedly misunderstanding you. No deal! … was my position, which did not sit well with you as I told you off. And things continue to slide downhill …

I’ve left out the details for good reasons. You may want to review your own assumptions, attitude, and outlook before shifting the blame on others. I can’t speak for others you named … I don’t know what transpired between you and them …

… but I know for sure what transpired between you and me. Your comments were crude and disgusting. And you are a fool if you think you wouldn’t lose my respect; you most certainly did.

Back to Fatima Bhutto …

VRV,

Zeemax is a foolish jihadi idiot. There is no need to respond to any of his countless moronic posts.

Zaradai had that advantage of police supplying gaals to his prison. Gandhi cant have that given by the Brit police. Sad :(

Did Gandhi have his nieces in the Agha Khan Palace along ????

#269.. I think "put forth" is the only bit of truth in your post :)

OMG, Yasser is back to what he's best at??

What's the point highlighting abt Aga Khan Palace when that gandoo (i.e Gandhi) never enjoyed luxuries? Neither Gandhi wanted to be imprisoned at AKP nor he's yearned to enjoy the pleasures of luxury. He never even had proper meals in his life during hs political career (chana and tomatoes, ornage juice etc.,).

It's worng to assume that he was in AC rooms of that Palace, slept on luxuty beds and sat in expensive sofas of the chandeliored rooms. It's correct to say that Gandhi also spent his incarceration at Yarwada Prison in Poona.

Yasser, U r incorrigible.

#268 Army apologist and pervert Leadenwinter writes "masadi... you are by far the silliest creature on the face of the planet... "

That is what I expect from your kind of immoral retards, ad hominem, you cannot and have not been able to approach a single one of my arguments that I have quite solidly put forth in my posts on chowk including the one on your dimwitted piece on why Army rule is best for Pakistan...

masadi... you are by far the silliest creature on the face of the planet... I seriously think you should stop smoking whatever it is that keeps you in this perpetual state of self satisfied delusion.

Correction "hold meetings with the Q,"

as " hold meetings with the N

g'night

Ras writes "Fatima,

some advice from this "Old Uncle" who just means well.

You are young and idealistic (like your father).

It is time you got married and had a family of your own.

Ten years from now you will be needed by your country

and its people. Till then stay out of the way and continue

your writing.

Your Aunt, in spite of your family problems was not

responsible for your father's death. We do not know about

the rest.

In the mean time I do not know what "William Uncle" is up

to, but I would advise caution in the near future in

your media exposure. Patience is a virtue!"


"Fatima, some advice from masadi who means well not only for you but for this nation.

You are young and idealistic which is a good thing for producing sincere action. Marriage and family will add complications both to your idealism as well as what you can achieve. Your country is a changed country now. In ten years due to American/Pakistan Army shenanigans, new thugs will be incorporated and mainstreamed so you need to take action NOW. Continue your writing of course, but try to push your way into the power structure of this country. Join the lawyer's movement and the other assorted boycotters and give the establishment hell. Call BS on the PPP leadership, hold meetings with the Q, get media exposure, and "jetset" around the globe to expose the Pakistan Army and US BS in this nation. The people will go with you and not with the thug who now occupies the leadership position of your grandfather's party by default. Regarding who murdered your father, you should know that people of greater power than BB and the thug did it but both of them sure did benefit from it, the establishmentized PPP was more convenient to the powers that be than one which might fall into the hands of an unpredictible maverick. Now, be smart like your grandfather and not dumb like your aunt, the country has changed, join the resistance and save ZAB's people's movement that is being f'kd by the thug sitting in its command post...Finally, if you do make it through, I will be available for a brief appointment to the foreign ministry just so long as I can tell the Americans on their face and on public TV to "go F themselves", then you can appoint someone else if you so please.

Sincerely,

masadi

Its amazing .. Pakistanis are probably the only people in the world who actually campaign against their own well-being.

Zardaris a criminal..in the same way the sun rises in the east... there's no doubts and no arguments, thus anyone who supports his re-election is a criminal by default without much ambiguity at all.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Theres only a few of them left .. the most dangerous being Zardari and his whelp... can some patriot please put them out of their misery..

Re: # 260

Masadi miaN, have you taken into account the possibility that Manto LIKES you - hence including your name?!!

Goldfinger writes " but no one came out on the streets or anything, particularly the so-called jiyalas of the ilk of Masadi "

Fool, there were violent protests after the Bhutto hanging, in Kashmir and in the mainland. Just because you happened to be a 20 year old chump and too blind to read the news or follow the facts, doesn't mean no protests occurred. Further I certainly am not a "jiyala". I write facts about the man which you counter with "he jetsetted around the globe" as rebuttal, needless to say, you're a certified fool...

Manto writes in 211 "Ok ladies and gentlemen... I am done here. I will leave it to Masadis and arjuns etc to fight it out for world domination on the internet."

Now was there any reason for including my name in this bs comment when I have not discussed a single thing with him on this thread. What does this tell you all: it tells the most mediocre of minds that this fool is afraid of my arguments against MAJ which he hasn't been able to counter to-date.

To his Ciao, i'd like to say, "good riddance to bad rubbish"...

Re: # 257

Ras sahib, your advice to Ms. Fatima Bhutto is well intentioned, of course, but most likely, she is about as likely to see it as Mr. Dalrymple is likely to come here and interact. :((

However, it is sensible advice. Politics is dirty business. Its rough-and-tumble world is no place for young idealists which all poets (irrespective of age) are.

There is no reason to cast doubts on Mr. Dalrymple, though. He is not a player among this cast of characters. Come to think of it, even Fatima is an "outsider" - directly affected though she is.

Your advice to her to get married and have a family of her own is rather patronizing, though.

Has there been in Jinnah or Bhutoo family female named Ayesha?Does it say somthing ?

Fatima,

some advice from this "Old Uncle" who just means well.

You are young and idealistic (like your father).

It is time you got married and had a family of your own.

Ten years from now you will be needed by your country

and its people. Till then stay out of the way and continue

your writing.

Your Aunt, in spite of your family problems was not

responsible for your father's death. We do not know about

the rest.

In the mean time I do not know what "William Uncle" is up

to, but I would advise caution in the near future in

your media exposure. Patience is a virtue!

...and Manto miaN...

Your "friend" needs some English lessons because his(?) spelling is atrocious!

Re: # 243

[but as an old Indian friend wrote to me a few days ago:]

Manto miaN, be careful. A man is known by the books he reads and thhe friends he keeps. We already know you read Arthur Kemp, perhaps you have the wrong kind of (Indian) friends, too. :((

If it will help you, feel free to think Gandhi was treated like Queen Victoria in all the prisons he went, starting from 1908. And all the 2000+ days he spent in prison was like staying in a five star hotel.

All those days he was scheming to prevent Jinnah from being anointed as the only true statesman and visionary of South Asia..

:-)

Ciao... I'll see you champoos when I see you.

Re: # 251

And mind you ... I only came in after Harish mian claimed that he had never heard of Aga Khan's palace being the place of Gandhi's incarceration which it certainly was.

masanamuthu,

Like I said earlier... there was no debate on how many times Gandhi was arrested or had to pay a fine.

The discussion here was about conditions and treatment in incarceration. I knew of two incarcerations and they were in brilliant conditions ... for example the Aga Khan's palace... a full fledge doctor on call ... acres of land etc...

If you know of other incarcerations - which you certainly do- please enlighten us on the conditions of these incarcerations? Was Gandhi in solitary confinement like ZAB and Mandela? Was he tortured? Kicked around? Buggered?

I do acknowledge that you came up with one other bonafide incarceration

Oh.. comeon dude, I just provided the list. He has been arrested and jailed so many times. I provided the link too. you can go ahead and see for yourself.

May I remind again that this site is to discuss Miss Fatima Bhutto and has nothing whatsoever to do with Jinnah or Gandhi.

Thank you

Re: # 247

I do acknowledge that you came up with one other bonafide incarceration ... but you still didn't give the name of the palace he was put up in... or was it the entire village in Yerdava?

Re: # 246

I was not aware that we were arguing about the number of times he was jailed but the conditions of his jail.

The reason I brought up the two I knew of was to ask if there were any other and what facilities were they ... were they better or worse than Aga Khan's palace in Pune.

So far no one has managed to answer that simple question.

Well..

you mean like how you got to know that Gandhi was arrested and jailed more than twice today.

we'll see.

Re: # 244

It takes time for knowledge to have the trickle down effect. Your children's children have a chance.

Gandhi has also to a large extent been exposed for what he is- a fraud and a charlatan... but as an old Indian friend wrote to me a few days ago:


Looks like I missed it. Anyways, it doesn't matter.

Re: # 241

"Manto darling, neither Gandhiji nor Jinnah need any defending. They were what they were and the world (by and large) sees them for what they were."

Jinnah certainly does not. Not even his worst critics accuse him of dishonesty... most consider him the most incorruptible leader of the subcontinent. As time has gone by and hidden facts have come out historians have revised the old nationalist mythologies by India and Pakistan.

Gandhi has also to a large extent been exposed for what he is- a fraud and a charlatan... but as an old Indian friend wrote to me a few days ago:


I guess the thinking lot among us Indians know
that the G-man was a charlatan. But it is not accpeted
publicly 'cos the G-man is a good publicity tool for
the GoI. And I am sure for all your hostility to the
G-man you will appreciate that the G-man is a better
product to sell to the aam junta than the J-man. It is
easy to sell poverty, bramcharya, imprisonment and all
that jazz. But the farsightedness of the J-man's 8/11
speech, the Lahore Resolution and the rest of his work
is not easy to explain to a layman.


"and no, not any half-truths, because those are also untruths"

That basically throws you out of the window.


May you find peace and have the courage to denounce Gandhi and his works.

neither Gandhiji nor Jinnah need any defending. They were what they were and the world (by and large) sees them for what they were.

That's right.

Both of them are good leaders and ended up doing tremendous good for what is known as "India" today.

Re: # 236

[You stop lying about Jinnah. I'll stop telling the truth about Gandhi.]

Manto darling, neither Gandhiji nor Jinnah need any defending. They were what they were and the world (by and large) sees them for what they were.

You should stick to speaking the truth only (and no, not any half-truths, because those are also untruths) in my view, but not for the purpose of "defending" anybody. You should do so in order to establish your own credibility among your peers and among Pakistani intelligentsia. And you should do so for an even more important reason - to find peace within yourself.

Just to remind all that the topic of discussion is actually Miss Fatima Bhutto. I have a great deal of respect for her and would like to share this article from an Indian newspaper on Miss Bhutto:

India and Pakistan are 'siblings': Fatima Bhutto
Islamabad (PTI): Describing India and Pakistan as "siblings", slain former Pakistani premier Benazir Bhutto's fiery niece Fatima Bhutto said there was more fortune in peace between the "two sister nations" than war.

"We have, like siblings, more in common than we appreciate and our differences, though vast, are not impossible to overcome. They are barely visible," wrote 25-year-old Fatima, who was in Jaipur recently to attend a literary event.

"Our countries, India and Pakistan, are sister nations. We are one half of each genetically and physically," she said.

"There is more fortune in peace between our two countries than war will ever bring us. We must build bridges between our people, not bombs.

"Siblings, though stymied by rivalries at times and shadowed by each other's ghosts, are still siblings. They have to protect each other in order to survive. We can't help our pasts, but we have an amazing opportunity to push for radical change in our futures," she wrote in her weekly column in The News.

Fatima said she had gone to India "to speak on Pakistan and to be a conduit for a message other than what we see reported on our country every day hate".

"I wanted to speak for what a majority of Pakistanis truly want, inside our borders and outside -- peace."

On her first visit to India two years ago with her best friend Sabeen, Fatima says she stared in horror when her friend revealed that she was from Pakistan to a shopkeeper.

Re: # 238

That is a novel idea... in order to defend the racist casteist bigot Gandhi... lets abuse the one man (Jinnah) who had been calling for racial equality for all people when Gandhi was still calling black people savages and subhuman.

But you are right... your very logic is contradictory - a complete contradiction in terms.

Re: # 235
[if you were an honest man you would just admit that you are a horrible liar.]

Manto dear, you are not in your best form today! :(
If I am an honest man (which I am), then of course, I am not a "horrible liar", so why would you expect me to say that?! It would be a contradiction in terms.

I have no doubt however, that had Jinnah been alive, he would honestly admit that he made a horrible mistake!

"Gandhiji was simply ahead of the times in some of these ideas."

Absolutely. Adolf Hitler hadn't even written Mein Kempf yet and Gandhi had all the same arguments when Hitler was still a failed artist.

BTW... here is deal. You stop lying about Jinnah. I'll stop telling the truth about Gandhi.

Its the best deal I can offer you. Take it or leave it.

Re: # 234

Correction. I produce the work of the greatest racist Gandhi himself to prove my point. All of what I have quoted is from Gandhi himself and you know it.

I know you've quoted some nonsensical patronizing statements from later in his life, but not one admission from Gandhi about his regret for views he expressed in South Africa.

You can go on lying. And you can go on abusing me but if you were an honest man you would just admit that you are a horrible liar.

Manto miaN,

On this web-site, I have produced MANY excerpts from Gandhiji's writing on Satyagraha where he has expressed admiration for Africans and including of their ability to overcome racial prejudice.

You choose to ignore all that evidence and like a parrot keep repeating the same old accusations. In the past, you have quoted such racists as Arthur Kemp and such Khalistanis as...(I forgot his name) you know who I am talking about. Deny those two facts if you can! You can not! Because of that all your evidence is tainted evidence.

And as a lawyer, you know what tainted evidence does to one's "case"!

PS: And if Gandhi caught Malaria whilst at Aga Khan's palace it just proves he was going around on evening walks in the lush green lawns of the palace (which is actually something that is well known). Margaret Bourkwhite even photographed him there and had tea with him.

To call the Aga Khan palace dark and dreary... is BJKumar's dishonesty on display.

Re: # 228

First of all Kasturba did not die of mosquito bites nor did Gandhi. Kasturba died because Gandhi would not allow the medicine which he allowed on himself later.

I have never heard of this... but Mosquitos are rampant in open areas in the subcontinent even today. Aga Khan's Palace was a luxury palace with acres of land around it. And Gandhi perhaps did have a desi remedy of mosquitos which did not work.

So it must have been a British conspiracy to put Gandhi in the Aga Khan's palace so that he could contract Malaria.

#224 Posted by MantoLives on May 23, 2008 6:21:01 am

so how's the movement to change his name from the frontier gandhi to the frontier jinnah going?

MiaN Urstruly has seen the wisdom of quitting before somebody humiliates him because of his indefensible position of disadvantage!

I think he is one step ahead of Mantolives.

Also to date neither BJkumar nor other Gandhi champoos have produced a single "I am sorry I was wrong about Black people" quote from Gandhi the racist bigot.

They have produced patronizing nonsense but not even a single apology or admission of guilt.

Seems like racism stuck with Gandhi till late in his life.

Manto and others are making much of the fact that Kasturba did not die from malaria while ignoring the simple fact that the place called Aga Khan "Palace" was a breeding-ground for malaria which many contracted, including Gandhiji.

The bottomline is - you can not call such a place a "luxury" place to live.

Except when you wish to be dishonest!

BTW... I was not aware that 1908 (Gandhi age 39), 1911 (Gandhi age 42), 1927 (Gandhi age 58) and 1922 (Gandhi age 53) are all pre-1906 era... In 1906 Gandhi was 37 mind you.

Re: # 225

Yawn.

I am not even going to compare someone as disgusting as Gandhi with Jinnah (who to date is the only politician in South Asia to be called the best ambassador of Hindu Muslim Unity- whether you like it or not).

And Gandhi was an exclusivist racist bigot.

Manto mian,

Yaaaawnnn...

You are back to your old cut-n-paste routine from 1906 and prior times. This has been covered countless times on this site.

Gandhiji was an evolving personality. Unlike Jinnah, he had an open mind which kept learning and growing over time. The Gandhiji of the 1920's was not the Gandhiji of 1905 in South Africa, nor the Gandhiji of the 1930's and later.

Jinnah was a shallow individual who was incapable of freeing his mindset outside of the shikanz of "Mussalmans are exclusive and 'better' than Hindus" mindset - like many Pakistani chowkies still do right here!

In defence of Jinnah, all one can say was that he was a product of a time when every country accepted racism as the norm. The Britishers were no exceptions, the Amrikkans were no exception, the Germans were no exception. Gandhiji was simply ahead of the times in some of these ideas.

Jinnah was perhaps a good lawyer but he was certainly no visionary! Unfortunately, for that very simple deficiency, too many Pakistanis have paid a very heavy price!

Re: # 223

No. Bacha Khan was a genuine guy who was deceived by Gandhi ... whatever our disagreements with him, he has his place in the hearts of Pathans and even Pakistanis.

#219 Posted by MantoLives on May 23, 2008 6:11:00 am

If gandhi was a racist casteist fascist bigot, does this mean the frontier gandhi was the racist fascist casteist bigot on the frontier?

Re: # 217

I am acting on my own advice to Mantolive. May Gandhi and QA both rest in peace.

BTW... any comments about your lie that mosquitos killed Kasturba and not Gandhi's insistence against penicilin.

(Ironically Gandhi allowed the administration of modern medicine on himself- what a piece of work).

I notice that Jum dada is back to his usual mischievous trouble-making!

Urstruly,

The Cabinet Mission Plan that Jinnah accepted did not even give parity to Muslims. Not by a long shot.


bjkumar,

Your latest lie had me come back.

The South African Apartheid was close to Gandhi's heart. Gandhi was the racist casteist Hindu fascist Bigot ... who mirrored South African Apartheid.
Below mentioned shows that Gandhi was a racist bigot:

On What Gandhi wanted

The last week has been very busy. We have not had a moment's leisure.
We saw Mr. Theodore Morison of Aligarh and the well-known Mr. Stead of
the Review of Reviews. Mr. Stead has boldly come out to give us all
the help he can. He was therefore requested to write to the same Boer
leaders that they should not consider Indians as being on the same
level as Kaffirs

Indian Opinion, 15-12-1906, CWOMG Vol. 6, pg 183



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On What Gandhi wanted (3)

CLASSIFICATION OF ASIATICS WITH NATIVES

The cell was situated in the Native quarters and we were housed in one
that was labeled 'For Coloured Debtors'. It was this experience for
which we were perhaps all unprepared. We had fondly imagined that we
would have suitable quarters apart from the Natives. As it was,
perhaps, just as well that we were classed with Natives. We would now
be able to study the life of Native prisoners, their customs and
manners. ...Degradation underlay the classing of Indians with natives.
The Asiatic Act seemed to me to be the summit of our degradation. It
did appear to me, as I think it would appear to any unprejudiced
reader, that it would have been simple humanity if we were given
special quarters. ...the Governor of the gaol tried to make us as
comfortable as he could...But he was powerless to accommodate us
beyond the horrible din and the yells of the Native prisoners
throughout the day and partly at night also. Many of the native
prisoners are only one degree removed from the animal and often
created rows and fought amongst themselves in their cells.

Indian Opinion 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 120


Apart from whether or not this implies degradation, I must say it is
rather dangerous. Kaffirs are as a rule uncivilized -- the convicts
even more so. They are troublesome, very dirty, and live almost like
animals. Each ward contains nearly 50 to 60 of them. They often
started rows and fought among themselves. The reader can easily
imagine the plight of the poor Indian thrown into such company

Indian Opinion, 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 135



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On What Gandhi wanted (2)

INDIANS ON PAR WITH KAFFIRS

There, our garments were stamped with the letter 'N', which meant that
we were being classed with the Natives. We were all prepared for
hardships, but not quite for this experience. We could understand not
being classed with the whites, but to be placed on the same level with
the Natives seemed too much to put up with. I then felt that Indians
had launched on passive resistance too soon. Here was further proof
that the obnoxious law was intended to emasculate the Indians.

It was, however, as well that we were classified with the Natives. It
was a welcome opportunity to study the treatment meted out to the
Natives, their conditions [of life in the gaol] and their habits.
...We were given a separate ward because we were sentenced to simple
imprisonment; otherwise we would have been in the same ward [with the
Kaffirs]. Indians sentenced to hard labour are in fact kept with the
Kaffirs.

Apart from whether or not this implies degradation, I must say it is
rather dangerous. Kaffirs are as a rule uncivilized -- the convicts
even more so. They are troublesome, very dirty, and live almost like
animals. Each ward contains nearly 50 to 60 of them. They often
started rows and fought among themselves. The reader can easily
imagine the plight of the poor Indian thrown into such company

Indian Opinion, 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 135



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On What Gandhi wanted (1)

I have, though, resolved in my mind on an agitation to ensure that
Indian prisoners are not lodged with Kaffirs or others. When I arrived
at the place, there were about 15 Indian prisoners. Except for three,
all of them were satyagrahis. The three were charged with other
offences. These prisoners were generally lodged with kaffirs. When I
reached there, the chief warder issued an order that all of us should
be lodged in a separate room. I observed with regret that some Indians
were happy to sleep in the same room as the Kaffirs, the reason being
that they hoped there for a secret supply of tobacco, etc. This is a
matter of shame to us. We may entertain no aversion to the Kaffirs,
but we cannot ignore the fact that there is no common ground between
them and us in the daily affairs of life. Moreover, those who wish to
sleep in the same room have ulterior motives for doing so.
Obviously, we ought to abandon such notions if we want to make progress.


Indian Opinion, 6-1-1909, CWOMG Vol. 9, pg 149



On What Gandhi wanted (9)



Gandhi's disdain for black people continues:

It is one thing to register Natives who would not work, and whom it is
very difficult to find out if they absent themselves, but it is
another thing and most insulting to expect decent, hard-working, and
respectable Indians, whose only fault is that they work too much, to
have themselves registered

What is a Coolie, Indian Opinion 2151904, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 193

CWOMG: Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi


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On What Gandhi wanted (8)



The whole affair is as much a disgrace to the Indian community as it
is to the British Empire. The British rulers take us to be so lowly
and ignorant that they assume that, like the Kaffirs who can be
pleased with toys and pins, we can also be fobbed off with trinkets

Indian Opinion, 29-2-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 105

CWOMG: Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi


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On What Gandhi wanted (7)


More on SEPARATE AND UNEQUAL theory of Gandhiji...

His Excellency has, moreover, justified the definition of 'coloured
person' on the ground that it is a legacy from the old Government. But
British Indians object to the definition for that very reason. Their
position is this. The ordinances will not in practice apply to them.
The Boer Government insulted the Indians by classing them with the
Kaffirs. Now there is no occasion to perpetuate a needless insult

Indians in the O.R.C, Indian Opinion, 6-1-1906, CWOMG, Vol. 5, pg 177-178

Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi: CWOMG


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On What Gandhi wanted (6)


More on SEPARATE AND UNEQUAL theory of Gandhiji...

His Excellency has, moreover, justified the definition of 'coloured
person' on the ground that it is a legacy from the old Government. But
British Indians object to the definition for that very reason. Their
position is this. The ordinances will not in practice apply to them.
The Boer Government insulted the Indians by classing them with the
Kaffirs. Now there is no occasion to perpetuate a needless insult

Indians in the O.R.C, Indian Opinion, 6-1-1906, CWOMG, Vol. 5, pg 177-178

Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi: CWOMG


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On What Gandhi wanted (5)



It reduces British Indians to a status lower than that of the
aboriginal races of South Africa and the Coloured people.

Indian Opinion 15-9-1906, CWOMG Vol. 5, pg 419-423

On What Gandhi wanted (14)

On Minority White rule in South Africa:

We, therefore, have no hesitation in agreeing with the view that in
the long run assisted Asiatic immigration into the Transvaal would be
disastrous to the white settlement. People will gradually accommodate
themselves to relying upon Asiatic labour, and any White immigration
of the special class required in the Transvaal on a large scale will
be practically impossible. It would be equally unfair to the Natives
of the soil. It is all very well to say that they would not work, and
that, if the Asiatics were introduced, that would be a stimulus to
work; but human nature is the same everywhere, and once Asiatic labour
is resorted to, there would not be a sustained effort to induce the
Natives to work under what would otherwise be, after all, gentle
compulsion. There would be then less talk about taxing the Natives and
so forth. Natives themselves, used as they are to a very simple mode
of life, will always be able to command enough wages to meet their
wants; and the result will be putting back their progress for an
indefinite length of time. We have used the words 'gentle compulsion'
in the best sense of the term; we mean compulsion of the same kind
that a parent exercises over children


Indian Opinion, 9-7-1903, CWOMG Vol. 3, pg 359-360

CWOMG: COLLECTED WORKS OF MAHATMA GANDHI.

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On What Gandhi wanted (13)


On Minority White rule in South Africa:

We, therefore, have no hesitation in agreeing with the view that in
the long run assisted Asiatic immigration into the Transvaal would be
disastrous to the white settlement. People will gradually accommodate
themselves to relying upon Asiatic labour, and any White immigration
of the special class required in the Transvaal on a large scale will
be practically impossible. It would be equally unfair to the Natives
of the soil. It is all very well to say that they would not work, and
that, if the Asiatics were introduced, that would be a stimulus to
work; but human nature is the same everywhere, and once Asiatic labour
is resorted to, there would not be a sustained effort to induce the
Natives to work under what would otherwise be, after all, gentle
compulsion. There would be then less talk about taxing the Natives and
so forth. Natives themselves, used as they are to a very simple mode
of life, will always be able to command enough wages to meet their
wants; and the result will be putting back their progress for an
indefinite length of time. We have used the words 'gentle compulsion'
in the best sense of the term; we mean compulsion of the same kind
that a parent exercises over children


For Beej who is apparently BLIND: Indian Opinion, 9-7-1903, CWOMG Vol.
3, pg 359-360

CWOMG: COLLECTED WORKS OF MAHATMA GANDHI.


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On What Gandhi wanted (12)



What the British Indians pray for is very little. They ask for no
political power. They admit the British race should be the dominant
race in South Africa. All they ask for is freedom for those that are
now settled and those that may be allowed to come in future to trade,
to move about, and to hold landed property without any hindrance save
the ordinary legal requirements

Petition to Natal Legislature, CWOMG, vol3, pg 330


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On What Gandhi wanted (11)


Ah... and they said Plessey Vs Ferguson was bad...

Well here is Gandhi with his theory of "Separate and Unequal"

...The petition dwells upon "the co-mingling of the Coloured and white
races". May we inform the members of the conference that, so far as
the British Indians are concerned, such a thing is practically
unknown? If there is one thing, which the Indian cherishes more than
any other, it is the purity of type. Why bring such a question into
the controversy at all?

The Transvaal Chambers and British Indians, Indian Opinion 24-12-03,
CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 89


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On What Gandhi wanted (10)

More on Gandhi's theory of "separate and unequal"

Why, of all places in Johannesburg, the Indian Location should be
chosen for dumping down all the Kaffirs of the town passes my
comprehension. ...Of course, under my suggestion, The Town Council
must withdraw the Kaffirs from the Location. About this mixing of
Kaffirs with the Indians, I must confess I feel most strongly

Indian Opinion, 10-4-04, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 130-131



Other Gandhian Statements that we need to consider...

'Sanghtan is a really sound movement. Every community is entitled,
indeed bound to organize itself as a seperate entity' : Mahatma Gandhi

(Young India January 6th 1927)


A translation of a Gujrati essay he wrote in 1922 for Niya Jawan

(1) I believe that if Hindu Society has been able to stand it is
because it is founded on the caste system.
(2) The seeds of swaraj are to be found in the caste system. Different
castes are like different sections of miliary division. Each division
is working for the good of the whole....

(3) A community which can create the caste system must be said to
possess unique power of organization.

(4) Caste has a ready made means for spreading primary education. Each
caste can take the responsibility for the education of the children of
the caste. Caste has a political basis. It can work as an electorate
for a representative body. Caste can perform judicial functions by
electing persons to act as judges to decide disputes among members of
the same caste. With castes it is easy to raise a defense force by
requiring each caste to raise a brigade.

(5) I believe that interdining or intermarriage are not necessary for
promoting national unity. That dining together creates friendship is
contrary to experience. If this was true there would have been no war
in Europe.... Taking food is as dirty an act as answering the call of
nature. The only difference is that after answering call of nature we
get peace while after eating food we get discomfort. Just as we
perform the act of answering the call of nature in seclusion so also
the act of taking food must also be done in seclusion.

(6) In India children of brothers do not intermarry. Do they cease to
love because they do not intermarry? Among the Vaishnavas many women
are so orthodox that they will not eat with members of the family nor
will they drink water from a common water pot. Have they no love? The
caste system cannot be said to be bad because it does not allow
interdining or intermarriage between different castes.

(7) Caste is another name for control. Caste puts a limit on
enjoyment. Caste does not allow a person to transgress caste limits in
pursuit of his enjoyment. That is the meaning of such caste
restrictions as interdining and intermarriage.

(8) To destroy caste system and adopt Western European social system
means that Hindus must give up the principle of hereditary occupation
which is the soul of the caste system. Hereditary principle is an
eternal principle. To change it is to create disorder. I have no use
for a Brahmin if I cannot call him a Brahmin for my life. It will be a
chaos if every day a Brahmin is to be changed into a Shudra and a
Shudra is to be changed into a Brahmin.

(9) The caste system is a natural order of society. In India it has
been given a religious coating. Other countries not having understood
the utility of the caste system, it existed only in a loose condition
and consequently those countries have not derived from caste system
the same degree of advantage which India has derived. These being my
views I am opposed to all those who are out to destroy the caste
system.

Beej bhaiyya,

(It was the misfortune of the vast number of Mussalmans of the subcontinent)

He gave 70% of the Muslims of subcontinent a nation they could run according to their world view. Sure, they have not made a great job of that, as yet. But that is not the fault of MAJ (pbuh).

Regards

Re: # 213

MiaN Urstruly, in addition to being a fundamentalist, you are also a VERY dishonest fellow. The record is very clear that Gandhiji cared just as much for the Mussalmans (and others) as he did for the Hindus - a simple fact which in the end costed him his life!

It was the misfortune of the vast number of Mussalmans of the subcontinent who followed the Jinnah's message of hate and exclusivity instead of Gandhiji's message of brotherhood and the equality of all insaans. I personally believe they did so because many were illiterate who followed their dishonest "leaders" who - in their heart - like you, made a distinction among Mussalmaans and non-Mussalmans in a way similar to the White people (from those days) used to make between Whites and non-Whites all over the world.

Pakistan was the ultimate culmination of Mussalman apartheid!

And just like White apartheid, it was based on outdated ideas of superiority of one "people" over another!

I am sure that had Jinnah been alive, having observed what happened in South Africa and other places, he would be kicking himself every morning while exclaiming...

"What a stupid, stupid, stupid thing I did!"

But he is no more alive - instead he burns in hell!

Re: # 215

Majumdar,

It applies to all heir apparents...We need somebody to show the other heir apparents, on both sides of the border, there is a life to learn and enjoy like a commoner.

Urstruly,

(Gandhi interest was the well being of hindu nation;he did his job)

I wish you had been right about this, sir. But it wasn't.

(Quaid-e-Azam got this fact right)

Quite correct on this.

Yasser mian,

(And before I forget Jiye Bhutto)

Which Bhutto are you referring to?

Vengy,

(Lets hope Fatima Bhutto steadfastly rejects the dynasty idea.)

Immaterial. She is about as legitimate a Bhutto heir as Varun Feroze Gandhi.

Regards

Lets hope Fatima Bhutto steadfastly rejects the dynasty idea. The sub-continent will be grateful for that.

Re: # 210

I think tahmad is giving you a sane advice. Stop acting like hindus - Gandhi with warts and all was not as much a monster as you make him out to be. Just accept the fact that Gandhi was the leader of Hindus and his prime interest was the well being of hindu nation; he did his job and attained his objectives by going above and beyond. Why do you expect that he should have been nice to us.

Quaid-e-Azam got this fact right, he understood very well what he was up against and he made his choices very clear - either constitutional parity or Partition. Just as us, Hindus shouldn't expect from QA either to be soft with them. QA was the leader of Muslims and his prime objective was the well being of Muslims.

There is no reason now to exhume Gandhi and QA and lynch them now.

And before I forget Jiye Bhutto

Ok ladies and gentlemen... I am done here. I will leave it to Masadis and arjuns etc to fight it out for world domination on the internet.

Have a good one.

Re: # 209

tahmed,

Not fair. I didn't start the discussion. I was accused... I merely responded with the facts.

They did not go down well with Gandhi's champoos.

ylh: Please stop your obsession with demonizing Gandhi and put your mind to better use.

Ana,

Re: 199

You are right. It was not Harishbhai's fault. It was mine although if you read #97 carefully I did not actually name him. Just could not resist temptation of latching onto Ijaz sahib's statement.

Regards

Re: # 205

So BJKumar is a liar. Surprise surprise.

#197 Posted by ahmedmadani on May 23, 2008 5:12:19 am


Mr.Z.A. Bhutto and mr. Gandhi are in same league.


Gandhi is world famous...

ZAB is world famous in Pakistan...

Yasser mian,

(and others have attributed her death to Gandhi's refusal to accept modern medicine... )

Quite right.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kasturba_Gandhi

After contracting pneumonia and being denied penicillin by her husband, she died from a severe heart attack on February 22, 1944.

Some say becuase it involved the himsak (violent) use of a hypodermic needle

Regards

#202 Posted by MantoLives on May 23, 2008 5:21:00 am


but now people have begun to see the light.


people meaning at least half the people in your household...

Since BJ is attributing Kasturba's death to mosquitos... and others have attributed her death to Gandhi's refusal to accept modern medicine...

Now that puts Nana Patekar's "Saala eik machar" in a whole new light.

Re: # 200

We have a complete record of Gandhi's activities at Aga Khan's palace. You may read it.

Also Gandhi was a racist casteist blue blooded Hindu fascist bigot. This is a historical fact.

Enough marketing has ensured that this fact has been kept hidden... but now people have begun to see the light.

Both truth and time is on the side of those who are ready to expose Gandhi's ugly face to humanity.

Re: # 197

Gandhi's stint in Aga Khan's gorgeous Palace with acres of land around it for Gandhi to stretch his legs cannot be compared to ZAB or Mandela's little cells.

Guys, before you end up killing each other over people long dead, this is what I have to say:

just because the Agha Khan palace is a 5-star tourist destination now doesn't mean that is how Gandhi ji was treated at the time

he was hardly used to a life of luxary otherwise.....I don't even know what this discussion is about?

Long live Gandhi ji!! one of the most beautiful (albeit idealistic - hence naive) souls to walk this planet

I'll not bother you again so please resume your positions gentlemen

Cheerio

ummm, errr, harish, one would think you missed yasser terribly the way tum usske peechay par gaye ho.

or vice versa. :)

har baat maiN gandhi ko laanay ki kya zaroorat hai. . . (although this was majumdar's doing)

Harish bhai,

I have asked you for the names of these other "prisons" so that we may decide if they were better or worse than Aga Khan's palace.

Your personal attacks against me are the height of desperation as well as BJ's claim (which you've endorsed) that Aga Khan's Palace where Gandhi was incarcerated was dark and dreary.

It is not fair to compare mr. Gandhi with mr. Z.
Mr.Z.A. Bhutto and mr. Gandhi are in same league. But time will tell about Z as he is making history and still very youing. Only Buutto senioor has affected in good way and giving her daughter for his nation and sytill her son is ready to do his duty in due time. Gandhi has affected pakistan wrong way specially with respect to being fountain head for armed and religious milittancy which is threatening the hollowing of state power.

Mr. Z is exactly in same position as mrs Gandhi and just like she is carrying the message of family and advancing interests of her son and PM MMSing is keeping PM chair hot, same mr. Z is keeping seat ready for bilawal. My feeling is that mr. Rahul and bilawal Bhutto will be making peace as chief executives of indo / pak area.

Now agout legacy of Mughal empitre. British carried legacy of mughal empire, Indian govt is legacy of Mughal empire while pakistan is legacy of Sikhashai. Look at dominence of Jats like mr. R anjit Singh and general llawlessness.

I think poor fatima is hijacked by By Manto and and changed to Mr. Gandhi. That what what happens when some body with knowledge of laws takes case . Now fatima is finished and gandhi lives through terrorist inspiration for jehadis in trial wild west. About Manto one can say " Duniya zukati hay ye herdam nahi zukanewala" . That is what is called power of personality.

Hope problem of K is not forgotten and military down gradation going is hopefully arrested by mr. Z. Problem with north west insergency is being used by indians as opportunity to help and BLA to carry out terrorist activitoies specially blowing of pipelines/ gas, 5railways and electric power. Sad part is no body is paying attention and asking to stop interfearing in other countries private affairs.

It is good mr. Arjun is put down or we will too much hate postings.
Good evening.

#192 by MantoLives

Yasser yaar, why are you running pillar to post now? All this while you were focused on the 2 years Gandhi spent in AKP. Now that your case has been proved wrong, now you jump on to the 4 years spent in other prisons when you were just not willing to talk about it? This is the height of desperation.

Harish bhai,

Do you really believe that Aga Khan's Pune Palace was dark and dreary... as BJKumar says?

It was a first rate facility. There is no "sprucing up". It was a house of luxury and Gandhi was kept there.

As Naidu said so well "It took millions to keep Gandhi in poverty".

"the Agha Khan Palace during (Gandhiji’s incarceration there) was quite a bit different from the current spruced-up version for promoting tourism."

Ha ha. Okay.


"In addition to being dark and dreary, it was also full of malaria-bearing mosquitoes which (I think) took Kasturba’s life."

I have heard that Kasturba died because Gandhi would not allow the administration of penicilin and other modern medicines.

#191 by bjkumar

Thanks Beej bhai! Yasser's (and by extension Majumdar bhai's) whole case was built on the theory that the Aga Khan palace was a 5-star facility. I hope he manages to review his opinions at least now.

PS: Like I said I only know of Aga Khan's Pune Palace.

Why don't you name the other facilities where he was incarcerated to show us that he was treated badly in prison?

Look... Bhagat Singh was kept in Lahore ... in appalling conditions. Any similar evidence for Gandhi?

Re: # 159

(and various others)

Harish, the Agha Khan Palace during (Gandhiji’s incarceration there) was quite a bit different from the current spruced-up version for promoting tourism. In addition to being dark and dreary, it was also full of malaria-bearing mosquitoes which (I think) took Kasturba’s life.

For those who care a bit about the truth (which, based on past experience, automatically excludes Manto miaN) here are a few items excerpted from Wikipedia regarding Gandhiji’s various arrests.

----------

….In 1906, the Transvaal government promulgated a new Act compelling registration of the colony's Indian population. At a mass protest meeting held in Johannesburg on September 11 that year, Gandhi adopted his still evolving methodology of satyagraha (devotion to the truth), or non-violent protest, for the first time, calling on his fellow Indians to defy the new law and suffer the punishments for doing so, rather than resist through violent means. This plan was adopted, leading to a seven-year struggle in which thousands of Indians were jailed (including Gandhi), flogged, or even shot, for striking, refusing to register, burning their registration cards, or engaging in other forms of non-violent resistance. … Gandhi's ideas took shape and the concept of Satyagraha matured during this struggle.

Gandhi's first major achievements came in 1918 with the Champaran agitation and Kheda Satyagraha, …. Suppressed by the militias of the landlords (mostly British), they {the villagers} were given measly compensation, leaving them mired in extreme poverty. ….Now in the throes of a devastating famine, the British levied an oppressive tax which they insisted on increasing. … In Kheda in Gujarat, the problem was the same. Gandhi established an ashram there, organizing scores of his veteran supporters and fresh volunteers from the region. …

But his main impact came when he was arrested {in Champaran} by police on the charge of creating unrest and was ordered to leave the province. Hundreds of thousands of people protested and rallied outside the jail, police stations and courts demanding his release, which the court reluctantly granted. ….It was during this agitation, that Gandhi was addressed by the people as Bapu (Father) and Mahatma (Great Soul). ….

…In Punjab, the Jallianwala Bagh massacre of civilians by British troops (also known as the Amritsar Massacre) caused deep trauma to the nation, leading to increased public anger and acts of violence. … it was after the massacre and subsequent violence that Gandhi's mind focused upon obtaining complete self-government and control of all Indian government institutions, maturing soon into Swaraj or complete individual, spiritual, political independence.

…."Non-cooperation" enjoyed wide-spread appeal and success, increasing excitement and participation from all strata of Indian society. Yet, just as the movement reached its apex, it ended abruptly as a result of a violent clash in the town of Chauri Chaura, Uttar Pradesh, in February 1922. …Gandhi was arrested on March 10, 1922, tried for sedition, and sentenced to six years imprisonment. Beginning on March 18, 1922, he only served about two years of the sentence, being released in February 1924 after an operation for appendicitis.

…Gandhi stayed out of the limelight for most of the 1920s, preferring to resolve the wedge between the Swaraj Party and the Indian National Congress, and expanding initiatives against untouchability, alcoholism, ignorance and poverty. He returned to the fore in 1928. The year before, the British government had appointed a new constitutional reform commission under Sir John Simon, with not a single Indian in its ranks. The result was a boycott of the commission by Indian political parties. Gandhi pushed through a resolution at the Calcutta Congress in December 1928 calling on the British government to grant India dominion status or face a new campaign of non-violence with complete independence for the country as its goal. Gandhi had not only moderated the views of younger men like Subhas Chandra Bose and Jawaharlal Nehru, who sought a demand for immediate independence, but also modified his own call to a one year wait, instead of two.[11] The British did not respond. On 31 December 1929, the flag of India was unfurled in Lahore. 26 January 1930 was celebrated by the Indian National Congress, meeting in Lahore, as India's Independence Day. This day was commemorated by almost every other Indian organization. Making good on his word, Gandhi launched a new satyagraha against the tax on salt in March 1930,…. This campaign was one of his most successful at upsetting British rule; Britain responded by imprisoning over 60,000 people.

…Lord Irwin's successor, Lord Willingdon, embarked on a new campaign of repression against the nationalists. Gandhi was again arrested, and the government attempted to destroy his influence by completely isolating him from his followers. This tactic was not successful.

…World War II broke out in 1939 when Nazi Germany invaded Poland. Initially, Gandhi had favored offering "non-violent moral support" to the British effort, but other Congressional leaders were offended by the unilateral inclusion of India into the war, without consultation of the people's representatives. All Congressmen elected to resign from office en masse.[15] After lengthy deliberations, Gandhi declared that India could not be party to a war ostensibly being fought for democratic freedom, while that freedom was denied to India itself.

…Gandhi was criticized by some Congress party members and other Indian political groups, both pro-British and anti-British. Some felt that opposing Britain in its life or death struggle was immoral, and others felt that Gandhi wasn't doing enough. Quit India became the most forceful movement in the history of the struggle, with mass arrests and violence on an unprecedented scale…
….Gandhi and the entire Congress Working Committee were arrested in Bombay by the British on August 9, 1942. Gandhi was held for two years in the Aga Khan Palace in Pune. It was here that Gandhi suffered two terrible blows in his personal life. His 50-year old secretary Mahadev Desai died of a heart attack 6 days later and his wife Kasturba died after 18 months imprisonment in February 22, 1944; six weeks later Gandhi suffered a severe malaria attack. He was released before the end of the war on 6 May 1944 because of his failing health and necessary surgery; the Raj did not want him to die in prison and enrage the nation. …

Re: # 188

I had every reason to bring in Zardari. The discussion started with Zardari in #95. Zardari's 4040 days became of supreme importance after 2338 days of Gandhi were being thrown up as evidence of his Mahatmaness.

As for Aga Khan palace ... I have asked you on number occasions to point out what other palace/A class facility/Jail he was incarcerated in but you've not told me. How am I to blame then.

Now I don't know if Jinnah was pissing in his pants but from your claim it is apparent that he did not anticipate the first rate Pune Aga Khan Palace facility that Gandhi was given.

As for your personal attack... lets not personalize it simply because you don't have an argument my friend.

#187 by MantoLives

That Zardari was kept in an air conditioned jail or that Gandhi was imprisoned in Aga Khan's Palace in Pune with acres of Garden to his disposal?

What a dishonest man you are Yasser mian to continue speaking of Gandhi's incarceration at the AKP when just 20-odd posts earlier, I provided explicit proof of his arrest and incarceration elsewhere! That you continue to focus on his 2 years there when he spent 4 more years at various other prisons is proof enough. You are beyond reform.

Now anyone with some semblance of a human brain can see that I am talking about Zardari not Gandhi (i.e. air conditioned prison).

First of all, you had no reason to bring in Zardari. This is not about him. Having brought him in, the least you could have done is to not mix them up both, but you did it anyways.

I'll let people decide if openly opposing Musharraf and even abusing him in the high peak of emergency on air on several international TV and radio channels with the identity and whereabouts well known is sticking one's head out or not.

Yasser mian, you already know what my views about your appearances on TV and radio are. If you really led/participated in any of the protests, you would have let us know. If you could talk about your late dad's (God bless his soul) Maybach, you would have surely let us know of this.

Ofcourse none of this has anything to do with the fact that Gandhi was imprisoned in Aga Khan's Palace in Pune...

So what if Gandhi was kept at the Aga Khan palace and so what if you dishonestly continue to portray as if that was the only place he was kept? At least he was imprisoned. Jinnah on the other hand was pissing in his pants at the very thought of being imprisoned.

Re: # 184

Know what? That Zardari was kept in an air conditioned jail or that Gandhi was imprisoned in Aga Khan's Palace in Pune with acres of Garden to his disposal?

Re: # 182

Dear Harish mian,

Now anyone with some semblance of a human brain can see that I am talking about Zardari not Gandhi (i.e. air conditioned prison). Unless you are trying to be clever by half, I feel sorry for you.

There you go being personal again (I suppose you can't help it) . I'll let people decide if openly opposing Musharraf and even abusing him in the high peak of emergency on air on several international TV and radio channels with the identity and whereabouts well known is sticking one's head out or not.

Ofcourse none of this has anything to do with the fact that Gandhi was imprisoned in Aga Khan's Palace in Pune... a feat that was replicated by Mushahid Mandela Hussain and Asif Ali Zardari in the various "22 pace room-jails" and "airconditioned jails" of Pakistan.

Being in prison is not as easy as you think it is Yasser mian. If it were so easy, Jinnah wouldn't be sleeping on the floors weeks in advance preparing for a stint in prison.

#181 by MantoLives

The airconditioned bit was for Zardari... Zardari was kept in airconditioned prisons.

Yasser mian, in that case you should let us know that. How on earth are we to know under what conditions he was kept?

Mantolives,

FYI Zardari has spent 4040 days in Jail...

Ok. :-)

I din't mean to jump into the eternal fight. I was just pointing out the TRUTH.

You know that I'm Jinnah's man. I'm all for awarding "Bharat Ratna" to Jinnah for his service to India as we know today. :-)

There you go again down the slippery slope Yasser mian. Apparently time away from Chowk has still not cured you of your bad habits of making unsubstantiated claims. You keep accusing Gandhi of having enjoyed imprisonment in air-conditioned prisons when you have absolutely no evidence to back it up. Nor do you have any evidence to prove that it was Gandhi who asked for such treatment.

As to real and false incarcerations, I saw a lot of lawyers being beaten up and arrested in Pakistan during the protests against Mushy. Wonder why you didn't stick your neck out? Was it fear of imprisonment? I'm sure with all your connections, you could have easily bought an air-conditioned cell?

My dear Harish mian,

The airconditioned bit was for Zardari... Zardari was kept in airconditioned prisons. Gandhi was kept in Aga Khan's palace. Did it have air conditioning... I don't know.

Whats your next question? Do I need to prove that Zardari was kept in Aga Khan's palace.

"Maybe you should also calculate how many more days Zardari spent in prison compared to Jinnah."

Now why would I do that when I am trying to show that even crooks can become leaders by going to jail?

The point is that Gandhi's imprisonment in Aga Khan's Palace or other A-class facilities he got can only be compared to Zardari's massive incarceration... not to Bhutto or Mandela who were victims of state brutality.

As for "arrests" I meant real incarcerations and I said to the best of my knowledge. If you are aware of where he was incarcerated on other occasions.... perhaps you can enlighten us as to the conditions of his incarceration. The reason I mentioned the two occasions I know of was because that is still the only frame of reference I have to judge the treatment meted out to Gandhi in jail.

#174 by MantoLives

Since when did Air conditioned prisons or Aga Khan's Palaces mean anything?

Can you prove Gandhi was kept in air-conditioned prisons?

Re:122
"Considering that ZAB was Qaid-e-Awam was there any great public upsurge to prevent his hanging? Or a great deal of protest at his death?"...

Ans: Unfortunately there were no protests or upsurge of humanity against the sad hanging of Quaid-e-Awam. I was 20 something and remember well how people were sort of shocked at the unexpected hanging, but no one came out on the streets or anything, particularly the so-called jiyalas of the ilk of Masadi (for whom probably protecting their own skin was more important then to protest for the untimely execution of their Quaid). Amongst the rest of the populace, this was probably because people's minds were still fresh from ZAB's own megalomania, misrule and hypocrisy, and how he was a party to adding to their woes and failing to really kindle their senses. The passing away of any human being is a sad occasion, even more so a public one that is snatched so brutally from your midst. Only now people's memories are becoming fuzzy, and because worship of the dead rather than the living is a much more abounding feature with every one in this neck of the woods, so many are trying to invoke sainthood upon a flawed human being (after all no one is perfect, above all a Pakistani politician).

And in case you didn't know, Zardari spent time in jail for the corruption cases he was implicated in, while Gandhi spent time in jail for resisting British rule. Big difference, in case you didn't know.

Muthubhai/Harishbhai,

It is what in Indian politics is called a "friendly contest"

Regards

#171 by MantoLives

The debate was ALWAYS about the treatment Gandhi got in prison.

My argument with Majumdar bhai was if Gandhi was only imprisoned at the Aga Khan palace.

It started from Ijaz Gul's comment in 95 on Zardari (who has spent twice as long a time in prison as Gandhi).

Maybe you should also calculate how many more days Zardari spent in prison compared to Jinnah.

Even the long list of Gandhi's arrests below.. he was incarcerated for any real length only twice.

OK, but weren't you arguing confidently just a while ago that he was arrested twice?

Eik to everyone claims a monopoly on the truth these days.

I'll let this one pass. If you reread this carefully you will probably understand who it points to.

Masanamuthu,

About Gandhi...

"he had spent 2338 days in jail during his life time"


FYI Zardari has spent 4040 days in Jail...


Since when did Air conditioned prisons or Aga Khan's Palaces mean anything?

If we leave out the days spent in Agha Khan's palace (as if Gandhi has asked for it.) That was done by the British govt. to placate world opinion esp. America's, I think.

i.e approx. 600 days out of 2338 days, it looks like, he spent close to 5 years plus in jail through the years.

And Yasser mian, did Gandhi ask to be looked after well when in prison? If the Brits kept him at Aga Khan palace, it was because of their own compulsions and not because the man wanted it.

Re: # 168

The debate was ALWAYS about the treatment Gandhi got in prison. It started from Ijaz Gul's comment in 95 on Zardari (who has spent twice as long a time in prison as Gandhi).

Even the long list of Gandhi's arrests below.. he was incarcerated for any real length only twice. And he was kept in Aga Khan's Palace in one of them... as for the other you may show us where he was kept...

Eik to everyone claims a monopoly on the truth these days.

#169 by masanamuthu

I think you can ignore attacks on Gandhi. TRUTH is on his side.

Thanks masan!

I was scanning Benazir's book yesterday in a local store. She claimed that Pakistan inherited the Mughal legacy. never realised that means killing brothers for power. :-)

Regarding the Gandhi arrests/imprisonments/jailings this is the record

harish_hyd,

I think you can ignore attacks on Gandhi. TRUTH is on his side.

**********************
http://www.gandhiserve.org/information/short_chronol ogy_4/short_chronology_4.html

http://www.gandhiserve.org/information/short_ch ronology_2/short_chronology_2.html

******************

1908
January

Stood trial for instigating satyagraha and was sentenced to two months' imprisonment in Johannesburg jail (his first imprisonment).


1908
October

Arrested for not having certificate, and sentenced to two months' imprisonment in Volksrust jail.

1909
February

Sentenced to three months' imprisonment in Volksrust and Pretoria jails.


1913
November

Arrested three times in four days (at Palmford, Standerton, and Teakworth) and sentenced at Dundee to nine months' imprisonment; tried at Volksrust in second trial and sentenced to three months' imprisonment with his European co-workers, Polak and Kall


1917


Led successful satyagraha campaign for rights of peasants on indigo plantations in Champaran. Defied aorder to leave area in April, was arrest at Motihari and tried, but case was withdrawn. Mahadev Desai joined him at Champaran.


1919
April

Arrested at Kosi near Delhi on way to Punjab and escorted back to Bombay, but never tried.


1922


statement at the "great trial" in Ahmedabad before Judge Broomfield. Sentenced to six years' imprisonment in Yeravda jail.

1930
May

Arrested by armed policemen at Karadi and imprisoned in Yeravda jail without trial.

1929
March

Arrested for burning foreign cloth in Calcutta and fined one rupee.

1932
January

Arrested in Bombay with Sardar Patel and detained without trial at Yeravda prison.

1933
August

Arrested and imprisoned at Yeravda for four days with 34 members of his ashram. When he refused to leave Yeravda village for Poona, he was sentenced to one year's imprisonment at Yeravda.

1944
May
6
After decline in health, was released unconditionally from detention (this was his last imprisonment; he had spent 2338 days in jail during his life time).


****************

#164 by MantoLives

As Majumdar pointed out 1 and 3 are symbolic arrests.

Yasser mian, did you actually read the link? You actually argued that he was only arrested twice. Whether they are symbolic or not can be argued till the cows come home and it is not even the subject of this discussion.

Could you tell us what kind of cells he got when he was actually incarcerated (twice). Were they as harrowing as say Bhutto's or Mandela's?

Now don't try to take this debate elsewhere. You claimed something and you were caught out. If you were honest, you wouldn't be going around in circles, trying to divert the subject of this discussion.

As for The politicians in India, US and Britain (and also Pakistan) are NOT petitioning anyone just as Motilal Nehru, Jinnah, C R Das, Gokhale etc were NOT petitioning anyone. They are there, as these people were there, in their capacity as representatives of the people and they were involved in the parliamentary struggle for self rule ... which was to negotiate a self governing dominion akin to Canada and Australia - which many historians agree they would have gotten by 1925 had the whole process not been derailed by the KM/NCM nonsense.

The politicians you were talking about are petitioning a representative government composed of their own countrymen, while Jinnah was petitioning a government that was imposed from Great Britain. Don't you see the difference? What is the point in bringing in Gokhale, Das etc.? Were these Gandhians?

Re: # 165

A self governing British dominion of India would not have necessarily deprived them of the advantages that they had.

I think diminishing Marginal utility had already set in.

Gandhi's incarceration in Aga Khan's palace in Pune reminds me of this article I read a while ago:

"This reminds me. Whenever I refer to Mushahid Hussain as ‘Mandela’ I get a huge number of emails castigating me for even taking the man’s name in the same breath as the great Nelson Mandela’s. Every time that happens I explain that it has nothing to do with the man sharing any of Nelson Mandela’s great attributes of head and heart.

The reason I refer to our own ‘Mandela’ now and again is because he had the temerity to compare his own three-month imprisonment after Nawaz Sharif’s government was overthrown, in what could only be an Army Officers Mess, with Nelson Mandela’s long incarceration. In his own words:

“About a year earlier, I had been assigned as minister-in-waiting to Nelson Mandela … I had asked him, as the 20th century’s most celebrated political prisoner (Mushahid being the second-most?), what were the most difficult moments of his 27 years in detention. Without a moment’s hesitation, he replied, ‘solitary imprisonment’.

“My time in solitary imprisonment would be much shorter, my experience far less harrowing. But I was to learn something of what he meant … I scheduled my day. I would study the Quran with concentration for a stretch of two hours, take a break, walk the 22 paces I had marked out in my room, do some stretching and then resume my Quranic reading�. Twenty-two paces marked out in his “room�? I ask you!

What effrontery is the man’s! For 20 years, the over-six-foot Nelson Mandela was kept imprisoned in a six-foot by seven-foot cell on Robben Island with barely enough space to lie down. He was supplied just one bucket in which he defecated, and after cleaning it out, in which he had to wash too. All day, every day, he was put to work in a rock quarry breaking rocks. And Mushahid ‘Mandela’ Hussain “marked out� 22 paces in his “room�? By golly the man has brass."

Yasser mian,

which many historians agree they would have gotten by 1925 had the whole process not been derailed by the KM/NCM nonsense.

Not very sure of this. Doubt if the Brits would have given self-rule to the kalaa kaloota Heengbus/Muslas very readily. It would have required the Empire to become unprofitable or a serious calamity (i.e WW-II) for that to happen. Which is what happened by 1947.

Regards

Re: # 159

Harish mian,

As Majumdar pointed out 1 and 3 are symbolic arrests.

Could you tell us what kind of cells he got when he was actually incarcerated (twice). Were they as harrowing as say Bhutto's or Mandela's?

As for The politicians in India, US and Britain (and also Pakistan) are NOT petitioning anyone just as Motilal Nehru, Jinnah, C R Das, Gokhale etc were NOT petitioning anyone. They are there, as these people were there, in their capacity as representatives of the people and they were involved in the parliamentary struggle for self rule ... which was to negotiate a self governing dominion akin to Canada and Australia - which many historians agree they would have gotten by 1925 had the whole process not been derailed by the KM/NCM nonsense.

Nor was the British government any more imposed than the various Muslim and Hindu dynasties that ruled the subcontinent before they came along. Infact, it is the British rule that forms the legal constitutional basis for your own government today.

Consider... India is a legitimately independent and sovereign country through the British Act of Parliament that is known as "Independence of India Act 1947".

As Majumdar is so fond of saying... that was thanks to the Aryan Mahatma.

OK. Let there be a qualifier. MKG was arrested many times (3-4) but major times only twice.

Regards

#161 by majumdar

Both of you are right.

How can that be Majumdar bhai? Only one of us can be right here. Yasser argued that Gandhi was ONLY arrested twice.

Harishbhai/Yasser mian,

Both of you are right. MKG went two prolonged imprisonment, the rest were short affairs.

Btw MAJ (pbuh) was not the only Injun politician who petitoned. There were others like Dadabhai Naoroji and much of the early moderates who followed the same path. And they are still much loved and respected names in India.

Regards

#155 by majumdar

What is indisputable is that he wasn't tortured or put into solitary confinement like Mandela or ZAB or closer home people like George Fernandes (during Emergency)

Not that I have any evidence to prove he was put in solitary confinement but if I ever manage to do that, you will next argue that at least he wasn't hanged like ZAB. Is there no end to your demands from the poor old man? Majumdar bhai, unlike Jinnah who preached to his minions from his ivory tower, Gandhi actually led by example. That is all I will say.

#154 by MantoLives

I read your link. Where does it say that Gandhi was arrested other than the two times both Majumdar and I have mentioned?

It does not.

Yasser mian, you won't listen. OK let me help you out.

Under "Campaign for Home Rule"

1. "....in 1920, when the British government failed to make amends, Gandhi proclaimed an organized campaign of non-cooperation. Indians in public office resigned, government agencies such as courts of law were boycotted, and Indian children were withdrawn from government schools. Throughout India, streets were blocked by squatting Indians who refused to rise even when beaten by police. Gandhi was arrested, but the British were soon forced to release him."

2. "The Indian population, however, could not fully comprehend the unworldly ahimsa. A series of armed revolts against the British broke out, culminating in such violence that Gandhi confessed the failure of the civil-disobedience campaign he had called, and ended it. The British government again seized and imprisoned him in 1922."

3. "In 1930 the Mahatma proclaimed a new campaign of civil disobedience, calling upon the Indian population to refuse to pay taxes, particularly the tax on salt. The campaign was a march to the sea, in which thousands of Indians followed Gandhi from Ahmedabad to the Arabian Sea, where they made salt by evaporating sea water. Once more the Indian leader was arrested, but he was released in 1931, halting the campaign after the British made concessions to his demands."

Yasser mian, these are only 3 instances, I haven't even come to the Agha Khan palace arrest. You can find more if you READ it.

As for politics of "petitioning"... I did not know that most politicians in India, Britain and the US today are mere "petitioners" because they follow parliamentary politics.

In case you didn't know, most politicians in India, Britain and the US today unlike Jinnah are petitioning governments that have been elected by their OWN countrymen, and not imposed on them.

It kind of reminds me of our own Mushahid "Mandela" Hussain who wrote about his incarceration during which he sought inspiration from Mandela ...

Apparently the great Mushahid "Mandela" Hussain used to mark 21 paces in his jail cell... and then would sit down to read the Holy Quran.

I wonder if he was at one of Aga Khan's local palaces.

Re: # 155

"What is indisputable is that he wasn't tortured or put into solitary confinement like Mandela or ZAB or closer home people like George Fernandes (during Emergency)"

Precisely.

Re: # 154

... one of those incarceration (the more famous one) was in Aga Khan's mighty palace in Pune ... The other one was cut short because of appendicitis... and was not in any c class cell apparently.

Manto mian,

I am aware of MKG being arrested for any lengthy duration of time only twice (I could be wrong). On other ocassions there may have been symbolic arrests. What is indisputable is that he wasn't tortured or put into solitary confinement like Mandela or ZAB or closer home people like George Fernandes (during Emergency)

Regards

My dear Harish mian,

I read your link. Where does it say that Gandhi was arrested other than the two times both Majumdar and I have mentioned?

It does not.

As for politics of "petitioning"... I did not know that most politicians in India, Britain and the US today are mere "petitioners" because they follow parliamentary politics.

masanamathu#: "inheritors of Mughal legacy.."

...i am not sure if it implies inheritors of mughal legacy.......it does imply a legacy of british politics......

....pakistan politics, and hence political leadership has not had a chance to mature beyond british politics......under british politics, the local politicians, primarily showed defiance to the establishment, i.e. british.....they were sent to jail regularly, which made them popular.....

the british have been replaced by the army/beuracracy establishment.....voters are the same.....and politicians are in-between.......

they are, actually, all politicians who shine in opposition......and fail in power.....primarily because they have never had power, and thus haven't had a chance to grow.......for all of the talk about ppp being the largest party in pakistan (which it is)......it has only really had elected power for around 6-9 years, since its 40 years of formation......similarly maulvis have a lot of opposition power.....but have only had power in a province ot two and that too briefly.......

.......hence pakistani political landscape is locked in the british era......and the voters still respect what they respected back then......

.........now, if the current ppp and or pml govts. can sideline the establishment and do five years of power, the dynamics will probably change.....people will start looking for good governance etc.........

within the establishment, the beuracracy has been sidelined at the high levels.....i.e. politicians can, generally, kick around even the very senior beuracrats.......however, beuracracy is still very powerful at the local and district levels......sho, ac, dc etc......

army, however, is very powerful at the higher levels, and has, uptil now, had its way with the politiicians (and with the judiciary).......

Good post bulleya...c'est tres interesant...

Interesting. I din't know this..

Pakistani leaders look like the real inheritors of Mughal legacy.

...i have been trying to figure out what the defining characteristic of political leadership happens to be in pakistan.......i.e. what is it that the public admires the most in any pakistan politician.....

......after an analysis of election results through various elections....and through discussions with some politicians, i have come to the following conclusion:...

.....the defining quality of any politician which carries the most admiration amongst the pakistani public is not honesty......it is not integrity....it is not good governance.....it is not economic growth....it is not democratic party credentials.....it is not intellect....it is not religion.......it is not secularism......it is not charity.....nor philanthropy......

then what is it......

it is defiance....

...the pakistani voting public respects defiance to established authority more than anything else.....this is why the ultimate badge of honor for any politician is, "going to jail..".....this is the first thing any politician mentions when they are interviewed, i.e. i have been to jail for this and that cause......

.....a corrupt person like zardari will get votes over an honest person like imran khan, because the former showed, "defiance" by going to jail for 7-10 years.....yusuf gilani is, currently, the most respected politician in pakistan, amongst his own colleagues.......not because of his political competence........but because he was one of two politicians who showed ultimate defiance to musharraf and went to jail for 5 years.......

the other being hashmi, who is currently the second most popular politician in pakistan.......the only one who won in 3 constituencies......

.......this is what explains the history of pakistani poltics.......bhutto is, without a doubt, an extremely popular politician in pakistan......the general public realizes all his faults......they know he was an opportunist and a feudal etc...

but when push came to shove, he showed defiance to the establishment and was hanged.......

ditto on benazir......

why do people respect defiance, going to jail etc......because the poor person considers the govt. (burecracy, army etc.) to be his biggest problem......i discussed this with a councillor........i asked him what do your voters want......do they want education or health......he said no....the first thing they want is protection from the police and the burecracy.......i.e. protection from their own govt.!!

people dislike the govt. (including army) and will vote for anyone who shows defiance to the establishment, regardless of any other sins he/she may have committed......those who die doing this (like zab and bb) become lifetime legends.....

this is also why justice chaudhry is becoming a legend.....if he ends up dying doing this, he will become an equally big legend as zab and bb........

this is also why nawaz is, now, becoming more popular and ppp popularity is going down......ppp is being seen as not showing defiance to musharraf.........

...in foreign affairs, this maps to defiance to usa......anyone who shows defiance to usa, becomes a hero....even if that defiance is misplaced and may lead to economic losses......

And this will be my last post on the issue. I have clarified what I meant in my post to Majumdar bhai. This board is about a promising young Paki woman and by continuing this discussion, I would be contributing to derailing what could otherwise be an interesting board.

#129 by MantoLives

To the best of my knowledge during the "freedom struggle" Gandhiji was imprisoned twice (I think he might have been imprisoned once in South Africa). Once in the Khilafat Movement when he was tried for sedition and sentenced to 6 years but was let go early for appendicitis. I am not sure what jail he went to but perhaps you can enlighten people here. Correct me if I am wrong, but he was not arrested in the salt march.

Yasser I'm surprised of all people, you should be asking a layman like me. I thought as an authority on Gandhi vs Jinnah, you should be knowing these details. And you know I'm not a historian nor someone with too much of interest in history, but I just typed in "Gandhi arrest" on Google and I picked one link which has information about his arrests and contrary to your belief, he was arrested more than twice.

http://www.kamat.com/mmgandhi/gandhi.htm

Politics of courting arrest is hardly the kind of politics I appreciate (though it was the most popular form of leader-making) ...

Fair enough. Nor do I appreciate the politics of petitioning. But those are our opinions and as you know, they don't count for much. As they say opinions are like.....

#146 Posted by majumdar,

The Pakistanis who use that term are only the murtids or the Qadianis on this site.

But thanks for getting the point.

Zee sahib,

I have seen many Pakistanis use the term Paki themselves. But if it offends, I will use Pakistani from now on.

Regards

#142 Posted by majumdar,

Maj Dada, It seems you are also not aware that Pakistanis find the term 'Paki' derogatory. Thanks.

Ana,

I was not aware that Zee sahib was quoting the Prophet (pbuh). Thanks.

Regards

majumdar:

that is not what Zee said. that is what the Prophet Mohammad PBUH said.

the rest of your post is not deserving of a response.

Ana,

Further to #140.

Let me reproduce what Zee sahib said about Mussalmans

"If you see wrong, stop it with your hand. If you do not have the means to do that, speak out against it. If you can't do that either, consider it a wrong in your heart - and that's the least degree of Faith"

I guess most Pakis were in the least degree of Faith (i.e. the Water bearers and Flag Carriers) of Bhuttoism!!!

Regards

#138 Posted by ana - majumdar

majumdar: since there seems to be somewhat of a sarcastic (or idiotic) tone

Yes, I too have noticed this in majumdar, and it really puts one off from replying to his seemingly serious questions. Sorry majumdar, but that makes it appear you ask serious questions only to make fun of the counterparty.

As for the political suppression and the public terror-perception of Zia, there has nothing been anything like that before or since. He would just arrest people and publicly flog them. I think Lathi Charge was not one of his preferred methods.

Ana,

(And as Yasser says, countless people felt that what happened to Bhutto was unjust and we mourned.)

I am sure all of you felt that way but did not do anything about it. Nothing wrong with it, I would have done the same in your place.

And I am sure that ZAB too felt that was done to Mujib was wrong but he did not do anything about it very rightly 'cos he would have the army lathis on him too.

Regards

Benazir is in Heaven and her Pir in hell who failed to protect her even with Imam Zamen tied on her right arm. Vajpayee also used to consult astrologers to steer 1 billion people. Held early election based on astrology but the stars somehow betrayed him. There can be a big Totta business who would pull cards for our leaders to decide on important issues such as launch a nuclear attack or not. Well, my advise to Fatima is to seek justice but do not take a direct confrontation with Zardari as Zardari’s stars eclipses the Bhutto family. You need to understand Pirastrology. In the book of Revelation a code “666� has been identified the start of world destruction. People always suspected year 6 month 6 and day 6 of each century. But in fact it was “Ronald Wilson Reagan� or (666) who became the initiator of world destruction by employing Muslim fighters for cold war in Afghanistan (11). The 11 became the start of destruction of Crusaders/Christian (9) or 9/11 army. If you have done web search on June 6, 2006, George (6) had lied about war 666 times. The 7 is very strong as in Hindi it is called sat or essence. Also Jati Sati. Days of a week are 7. Muslim use 786 for Bismilla. That reads 7 ate 6. Six is very unstable and destined to be decayed. Israel, Bharat and Russia (666) have AlQaeda, Taliban and Chechen respectively (777). America and Britain will eventually get out of this mess. AlQaeda AlQuoran AQKhan (786) will achieve at the sacrifice of 6. The quest for ultimate destination Communism (9) a new start after 9 is Capitalism (10) exactly the number 10 badmash, Imperialism (11) the trouble. Zardari Politics Bhutto (786) and how Zardari’s politics ate Bhutto. Similarly Western Politics Muslim (786) how the western politics will eat Muslim world. All 6 like Jordan, Kuwait, Muscat, Taiwan, Arabia are at higher risk. Bangladesh (10) will become a pivotal point in Kashmir Struggle Bharat (786) inside India. George, Perviz, Karzai (666) will land in the dustbin of history. If Mirzai had listen to Nanga they would not be where they are today. Prophet Maudoodi Marzai (786) had not happened. And General Military Sherif or Bhutto (786) will never reconcile but they will with Zardari (7). There are signs of wisdom for those who understand and fun for those who doubt. So best for Fatima (6 is weak) compared to Zardari a head on collision will hurt her. She needs (8) Iftikhar for Justice (7). Form some movement for justice as the people of Pakistan desperately need one.

majumdar:

since there seems to be somewhat of a sarcastic (or idiotic) tone in your the lawyers must be really dumb to risk being laThi charged, i don't know that i should continue this argument with you.

Students speaking out in their schools for one thing. Any discussion of politics was banned in my school, because of how passionately we felt about what was going on, from both sides. And we were fifteen and sixteen year old teenagers, for crying out loud. Protest does not have to be marching on Mall Road or anything like that. And as Yasser says, countless people felt that what happened to Bhutto was unjust and we mourned.

Zee sahib,

Six people immolated themselves in Lahore.

I thought only Hindoos, especially Maddus and Rajputanis, were into this kind of shyte.

Regards

majumdar,

Six people immolated themselves in Lahore.

majumdar,

Precisely..

Now I bid you good bye.

#121 Posted by HP,

You may disagree with some of my opinions just as I do with yours, but if you call these ridiculous, I have to say I find most of your opinions absolutely moronic.

Now, tell me, are you saying Al-Zulfiqar did NOT have an Indian connection?

One more thing... I don't think it is a valid argument to say that just because Bhutto's death was not followed up by massive protests, he was not widely mourned.

General Zia created a situation where army had a firm grip on the country... he also played his hand by releasing Bhutto's left-wing opponents like Wali Khan as well as the misguided young self styled marxist revolutionaries like Najam Sethi and the bunch who had taken up arms in Balochistan during the Bhutto regime...

The very fact that Bhutto factor played a decisive role in Pakistani politics for atleast 20 years shows the enormous charisma of the man.

Ana,

You and HP are both right, I stand corrected.

(and anything resembling mass protests on a wide scale would have been met with laThi charges amongst other things.)

And certainly ZAB would have been lathi charged had he protested the shenanigans in Dhaka. So he correctly did not protest what was going on.

The lawyers of Pakistan must be really dumb to have risked being lathi charged.

( it is to say that there are various forms of protest

Like what.

Regards

Yasser mian,

To the best of my knowledge he was imprisoned twice. Once after NCM - somewhere in Maharashtra and then again in 1942-44 in Aga Khan's Palace.

Regards

majumdar:

you conveniently forget that martial law had been declared in Pakistan, that the surma-eyed Zia-ul-Haq had taken over, and anything resembling mass protests on a wide scale would have been met with laThi charges amongst other things.

That is not to say that there was NO protest at all, it is to say that there are various forms of protest, and that Bhutto's sentencing and hanging did not go without them.

You weren't there. You don't know.

Re: # 126

My dear friend,

I hope you will excuse me as I no longer want to waste my time here.

To the best of my knowledge during the "freedom struggle" Gandhiji was imprisoned twice (I think he might have been imprisoned once in South Africa). Once in the Khilafat Movement when he was tried for sedition and sentenced to 6 years but was let go early for appendicitis. I am not sure what jail he went to but perhaps you can enlighten people here. Correct me if I am wrong, but he was not arrested in the salt march.

His most famous incarceration which drew world wide condemnation was the Aga Khan Palace incarceration which was his longest as well.

Needless to say it was not comparable to Bhutto's death cell or Mandela's solitary confinement. As for it being defence... absolutely not. Politics of courting arrest is hardly the kind of politics I appreciate (though it was the most popular form of leader-making) ... It must be recalled that neither Bhutto nor Mandela were "courting arrest". They were victim of illegal actions of the regime. They were not arrested for breaking any laws... they were arrested by those who broke the law ... by carrying out a coup in Bhutto's case and by illegally confining Mandela for allegedly planning "invasion" of South Africa.

I hope you will let it be at this.

#127 Posted by pakistan3

"what protests? I was a grown man"

You are still growing! When is Pakistan #3, Jinnahpur is expected?

Re: # 123

HP,

what protests? I was a grown man then and donot recall any mass protests at the death of Bhutto Sahib.

You are the most misleading person I have come across on this site.

#119 by MantoLives

However Gandhi's world famous incarceration (1942-1944) was in Aga Khan's palace and it is a fact.

Yasser yaar welcome back, even if briefly. Where have I even remotely suggested that Gandhi was never imprisoned at the Aga Khan palace? I'm totally baffled and if you can point it out, I will be grateful. It is with regard to his being treated as a king that I questioned Majumdar bhai now and you earlier.

And in a long political career spanning almost 4 decades and comprising of many prison stints, it is very clever of you to have taken just 2 years of his incarceration at the AKP and paint it as if that is the only place he was placed in. At least that is the impression Majumdar bhai seems to have gotten if we go by his post 97.

HP sain,

Re: 123

I stand corrected. Thanks.

Regards

Re: # 118 & 119

Zeena,

(I am ashamed, embarrassed,sad, broken hearted, hurt and in despair in front of your picture which is hanging in my study.I have these tears of shame b/c I left my country, Pakistan)

yes you should be.

(You must be sad to see Zardari,deciding Pakistan's fate....This is sick and sad...)

I am sure he is

(Zardari needs to be butchered like this man has butchered hundreds of innocent Pakistanis...........)

No one needs to be butchered just because you say so. Enough butchering has gone on already


MantoLives,

You are right about the losers. Every single one of them

Majority of these losers live overseas and talk about Pakistan as if it is their "baap ki jageer".

Regards

#122 Posted by majumdar

what you don't know, you don't know. You have never lived in Pakistan, you don't know anything abt the country besides what you read in that shitty Daily times and still insist that there was no protest.

Dada, it is not a good idea to comment on things you have no knowledge abt.

Thanks.

Ana,

Considering that ZAB was Qaid-e-Awam was there any great public upsurge to prevent his hanging? Or a great deal of protest at his death?

Regards

#114 Posted by zeemax
"Murtaza was eliminated mainly because of Al-Zulfiqar's Indian connection."

This is just ridiculeous!

"I think it was then decided to remove him because he was getting too aggressive and dangerous, and with plenty of potential for making serious trouble for the country's establishment."

This looks much better. Some claim that he only came back to Pakistan after making a deal with the agencies or the ISI. He was a hothead and thought he was the PM and treated many people like sht.No one wanted another ZAB in progress!

Also this:

http://www.mapsofindia.com/pune/places-of-interest/famous-monuments/aga -khan-palace.html

I really dont want to get involved in a discussion that consists mainly and chiefly of losers of all varieties... but since my name is being thrown about...

However Gandhi's world famous incarceration (1942-1944) was in Aga Khan's palace and it is a fact. India even promotes Aga Khan's palace in Pune as a tourist destination:

http://www.pune.org.uk/tourist-attractions/aga-khan-palace.html



Suffice to say it was not in 4 by 3 cell for 27 years like Nelson Mandela for example in an apartheid based racist society (which ironically Gandhi upheld)...

My Dear Quaid-e-Azam
I am ashamed, embarrassed,sad, broken hearted, hurt and in despair in front of your picture which is hanging in my study.

I have these tears of shame b/c I left my country, Pakistan.
Because I couldn't fight those demons who're damaging Pakistan....now, this biggest demon, called Zardari with Musharaf is trying to loot Pakistan for their unlimited dirty desires of controlling poor masses....

You must be sad to see Zardari,deciding Pakistan's fate....This is sick and sad...

Zardari needs to be butchered like this man has butchered hundreds of innocent Pakistanis...........

#95 Posted by ijaz_gul
“He has made too many brothers outside his family and yet ignores the immediate Bhutto clan.�

Bhutto family has lots of problems. After ZAB’s death, it was just a dysfunctional family that despite the public façade was knee deep in squabbling from petty issues to some major issues like the equitable distribution of the property. This curse of the property wrestling is something no property owning Sindhi family can escape. Zardari has no choice. He can’t resolve the Bhutto family problems. Everyone knows that he is not liked by the other Bhuttos.

Politicians waffle and change positions based on which way the wind is blowing or where the pressure is coming from. Zardari thinks he is a master negotiator and Benazir often took him to task when she was the PM and he tried to pull some deals to help her.

Benazir’s murder is not some mystery. Evidence is pretty much right in front of you but billi kay gallay main ghanti koon bandhay Gaa!

Liaquat Ali Khan was murdered too and his wife had a clear idea who was behind his murder but she never said a word…Like her, Zardari is not looking forward to meet his spouse so early. I seriously doubt that he could possibly be involved but he has accepted that as fait accompli.

I, for one, can't take majumdar seriously. Especially when he makes remarks like it was just that no one lifted a finger to save Bhutto's life. *rolling eyes ikaan*

#113 by majumdar

people do know who to take seriously and who not to.

Now you're being too modest Majumdar bhai :-)

#95 Posted by ijaz_gul,

WAS ZARDARI INVOLVED?

The answer is no. Murtaza may or may not have had Zardari's moutache shaved off, and the vicious tussle over CM ship of Sindh and control over PPP is true, but Zardari just did not have the means to get Murtaza done-in by professional snipers in the manner he was. No doubt he would have if he could.

In my opinion, Murtaza was eliminated mainly because of Al-Zulfiqar's Indian connection. A week before his murder, there had been a bombing of the PIA Cargo office on Club Road and Al-Zulfiqar had been named. Police had arrested Murtaza's prrincipal lieutenant (Ali Sonara) and Murtaza had forcibly had him released and had slapped around the Police oficers. He was like that.

I think it was then decided to remove him because he was getting too aggressive and dangerous, and with plenty of potential for making serious trouble for the country's establishment.

Harishbhai,

people do know who to take seriously and who not to.

I will be surprised if anyone takes me seriously on chowk.

Regards

#107 by majumdar

I think I desperately need to read up more but to the best of my knowledge that the said gentleman was treated like a ghar jamai in prison (but do correct me if I am wrong).

Majumdar bhai, you perhaps are going by Yasser's words whose favorite line in defense of Jinnah never going to prison was that Gandhi was treated like a king at the Agha Khan palace where he was supposed to have been imprisoned. I haven't heard this line from anywhere else and any other person on or off Chowk. If that is indeed the case; and coupled with your confession that you are short on reading up stuff about those times, I'm very sorry to say that you appear that you have no opinion of your own.

I have no intention of misleading people but if end up doing that (wrt the said gentleman) I will not be too sorry for it.

It is what is termed in common parlance as "character assassination" and if you don't mind it, then who am I to object? But remember even on such an anonymous forum as Chowk, there is a thing called integrity and people do know who to take seriously and who not to.

Masadi sahib,

There was something else he could have done. He could have persuaded Mujib to enter into a coalition at some stage. Or he could have negotiated a constitutional change wherein the provinces of Pakistan would have had the maximum autonomy (incidentally in line with its founding principle the Lahore Resolution of 1940). PPP would have formed the govt in Punjab and Sindh (and maybe B'stan as well), Mujib would have kept EB (which is what he wanted anyway) and NAP NWFP. And at Central level which was not so lucrative anyway, PPP and AL cud have come to some understanding.

(becomming an unnecessary casualty for a foregone conclusion )

But at the end of the day he did become a casualty and his death has done no one any good. But if he had become a casualty in dong what I suggested he would have been a hero possibility in South Asia if not the whole world. But he remains a controversial figure even in his own country.

Regards

#98 Posted by rf786
“By the way, still waiting for your views on who may have been responsible for ordering the hit on Murtaza.�

I can only deduce and you can too. I said politicians in Pakistan don’t have the kind of sway that would persuade any civilian or military bureaucrat to execute murder of a high profile person like Murtaza. Zardari was the last person to follow for Pakistani Bureaucrats especially the high ranking Police officers who know more abt the reality in Pakistan than many others bureaucrat.

Now, if the politicians don’t have the pull then who does? Think hard. Well, may be you don’t have to.

later

Majumdar writes "But by doing the right thing i.e by unconditionally supporting the right of AL to form the government he could have forced the Army into a very tricky position where it would have to oppose BOTH the wings of the nation in its crackdown on Bongs.."

By disenfranchising the West, and making the union weak, he would have strengthened the military and unlike Mujib was smart enough not to fall for its trap, becomming an unnecessary casualty for a foregone conclusion was not a very smart thing to do either in extracting the military from political affairs or for support among his base...

Harishbhai,

I think I desperately need to read up more but to the best of my knowledge that the said gentleman was treated like a ghar jamai in prison (but do correct me if I am wrong).

I have no intention of misleading people but if end up doing that (wrt the said gentleman) I will not be too sorry for it.

Regards

Tahmed writes "HP #90 on masadi, I chose to use my precious chowk time interacting with posters who I know are being honest even if we dont agree on something at some point.

There is no shortage of posters (mohar11, ajeya, masadi, pewresearch, sattar, arjun, jay) whom i have realized based on past attempts at discussion are a total waste of time.."


Another unsubstantiated cheap attack and exucse. Prove where I have been deliberately dishonest just ONCE in any of the over thousand posts I have made here, and I am a "waste of time" because having a better grasp of the issues than you do, I do not buy into the unconditional worship of the white man that you offer up in every post of yours even when it is uncalled for. Your advertised "land of the free" is actually a land of hypocrisy that is home to the largest community of robotic morons that human history has seen...

harish and majumdar,
You know I for one would not take the bait.

tahmed writes "I dont call posters names unless they have demonstrated such behavior on chowk. I will be glad to substantiate this if you wish.."

Please do, you have zero proof for these allegations you baselessly throw at me, that is why they are NEVER substantiated and you run away like a moral-less, spineless, and shallow person that you are, and you hurl these BS insults at me just because I expose the BS of those you worship, the white man and his sh**.

Masadi sahib,

No one is under any illusion that ZAB could have single handedly changed anything or prevent the Army from carrying out a crackdown on Bongs if they were really determined to do so. But by doing the right thing i.e by unconditionally supporting the right of AL to form the government he could have forced the Army into a very tricky position where it would have to oppose BOTH the wings of the nation in its crackdown on Bongs. Plus, in doing so he would have avoided the stigma that (West) Pakistan's elected representatives chose to ignore what was going in East Pakistan.

Btw did ZAB ever openly oppose the Army action in Dhaka? Did he ever start a popular agitation against it in W Pak? To the best of my knowledge, he didn't. And it is therefore only just that when his own time came, no one in (West) Pak lifted a finger to save his life.

Regards

#100 by majumdar

But you know I am incorrigible.

Majumdar bhai, you may have done it just for the heck of it, but you must know you are misleading (unintentionally perhaps, but does it matter?) people who might take it to be true.

Urstruly writes "Bhutto's "idhar hum udhar tum" in reality meant that "idhar hum, udhar tum aur ooper hamara baap Yehya"

The rest of your BS aside, only a naive fool can claim that just by "refusing" one can cause structural change or dislodge the Pakistan Army, let me remind you again that not a single person damaged military rule in this country more than ZAB and that was before and after the 1971 breakup of the Eastern part, not a single person incorporated the people into both the power equation of this country and a voice to reackon with compared to that person. The "idhar hum udhar tum" was in actuality a manuvering around military shenanigans, and an attempt to keep the union intact, unlike the idiots you're defending whose illegitimate origin lies in the barbaric destruction of Kabul through infighting and the Pakistan Army, and who burn every "girls school" they lay hands on, and butcher innocents and follow a perverse lifestyle the fits to the dot the crusader's (fake) caricature of Islam. The "power situation" is not created by the politicians post MAJ, rather it was created by the colonials and the surrounding geographic pressures, the politicians merely fit into a subordinate position under the military, ZAB was the one who who tried to manuever around it and refusing and not being smart in working around it gets a person butchered for no reason and NOTHING changes.....comprendey fool...and don't try to term your third rate BS based on little to no understanding with "pearls", you miserable swine.

Harishbhai,

LOL. But you know I am incorrigible. Just couldn't resist the bait. And neither could you.

Regards

#97 by majumdar

Maybe more reminiscent of a prominent Indian "freedom fighter" whose prison terms consisted mainly of rent free stay in Agha Khan's palace

Majumdar bhai, how many times was Gandhi imprisoned at the Agha Khan palace and how many times at other prisons? Of his total stay in prisons, how many days were spent at the Agha Khan palace? Please enlighten me.

If you do not know the answer to this, then it would be worthwhile to exercise a little more discretion.

Re: #

HP

There was no mention of the idiot CJ in your posts yet tahmed32 has chosen to insert his name. There can be only two explanations (a) tahmed32 suffers from delusional schezophrenia or (b) was offended by your criticism of Punjabi leaders.

By the way, still waiting for your views on who may have been responsible for ordering the hit on Murtaza.

Ijaz sahib,

(His years in captivity were anything but reminiscent of Nelson Mandela.)

Maybe more reminiscent of a prominent Indian "freedom fighter" whose prison terms consisted mainly of rent free stay in Agha Khan's palace

???

Regards

Re: # 94

Thank you Ras sahib, I still remember that imposing personality standing in front of KGS main door, Mir Murtaza, next time I saw him was much later when a boy had matured into a father, politician and yet remained a rebel.

HP, tahmed and Zeemax,
I would just like to focus on the subject and avoid digressing into any other argument.
WAS ZARDARI INVOLVED?

I have been consistent in my views on Zardari. To me he comes across as a shady character with fingers in many pies. It’s beyond doubt that he over years has hobnobbed with the agencies and establishment. His years in captivity were anything but reminiscent of Nelson Mandela. Just recall his VIP rooms in hospitals and Noor Scandal.

Right now he has his hands in many pies too. He has made too many brothers outside his family and yet ignores the immediate Bhutto clan. At one hand he desires to please Mush and on the other, USA. In due course he would discard whoever does not matter. His latest Anti Mush Mantra coincides with the US efforts to single out the military establishment to fall in line with the US anti terrorism objectives. He is a one man show with his three musketeers ie Shah, Naek and Rehman. Suddenly he realizes that CJ is bad not due to any conviction, but only because the MISSING PERSONS issue irks his mentors. He sidelines Fahim because he represents the PPP hardcore and not his coterie. He hates Aitezaz, because he supports the CJ.

What stops him from registering an FIR on the murder of his wife, or carry out a forensic investigation into her murder by Pakistani agencies supported by best foreign expertise? Yet he wants to sally out towards a Scotland Yard type UN investigation where the sleuths would append the drafted script.
Cheerios

RE: # 52 Posted by rf786 wrote:

"Ras
Which year are you talking about? Mir Murtaza passed out by the time Shahnawaz started in 4th or 5th grade? Shahnawaz was a year senior to me."

rf786, the year as I wrote was the fateful one of 1971.

Mir did his O'levels at KGS in December that year

as I did. I remember Sanam and Shahnawaz well because

they could turn heads of the opposite gender easily.

I believe that Shahnawaz was 4 years younger than Mir and

about a year younger than Sanam.

It has been 37 years, so please correct me if I am

wrong. I also remember a another young lady by the name of

Sherry....

HP, of all sub-cultures that existed in Pakistan, I tend to

gravitate to to the Sindhi because ZAB was in my

opinion a true leader. But I disagree with Masadi on

Bibi. She was amongst the most charming people that I

have ever met and an improvement on ZAB in certain

areas.

I will feel guilty for the rest of my life for being a part

of a community which encouraged her to return to Pakistan.

Her death on12-27-2007 was one of the worst days of my

life.

HP, you speak of patriots. She was a patriot till the

very end and would have made a difference in the

future of Pakistan.


Ras

HP #90 on masadi, I chose to use my precious chowk time interacting with posters who I know are being honest even if we dont agree on something at some point.

There is no shortage of posters (mohar11, ajeya, masadi, pewresearch, sattar, arjun, jay) whom i have realized based on past attempts at discussion are a total waste of time and so refuse to waste time discussing anything seriously. The difference between them and masadi is that whereas the former go their own way once they realize i am not interested in discussing anything with them - masadi keeps coming back with namecalling and abuse and lengthy comments on posts I have written to others. So, when i feel like it, with a one-liner which is all i need to do.

Hope this clarifies.

HP #89 Thanks for the clarification. It seems true that it is harder for a dictator to use force against demonstrators in, e.g. the Panjab, than in remote areas in Baluchistan. This being because of the fact that the army is largely composed of panjabis. This was brought out most clearly when Ayub Khan had to end his dictatorship after several demonstrators in Lahore were killed and the military became reluctant to continue killing people to maintain Ayub Khan in power.

Having said that, given that it was NS whose government was overthrown by the military, it is clear that being from the panjab does not guarantee any exemption from military action either. Also note that it is not just the military, but also the islamic terrorists (who are basically either the arab-led al Qaeda or the pathan tribal-led taliban) and the US that you had mentioned - and for them the provincial base of political leaders is clearly irrelevant.

Also, I think the PPP leadership (including Zardari) have on more than one occassion spoken out against the CJ. They have never expressed appreciation for the fact that if it was not for the CJ, BB and Zardari would still be in exile, and indeed make it a point to claim sole credit for overthrowing the dictator while very obviously ignoring the role of others, let alone the leadership role of the CJ.

PML leadership by contrast has been very appreciative of the boldness shown by the CJ. The latter is clearly the more honest policy. Several months ago, zeemax had asked me who I would vote for (PPP or PML), and I told him I had not made up my mind. Today I am very clear on which party I would vote for - PML.

HP ur analysis is dead on..however i dont think army will spare someone just cause they had phajjay day paway in the morning ..wohh alag baatt hay kay punjabiyoon nay kabhi status-quo ko uss tarah challenge hi nahi kiya...jawed hasmi, saad rafique, khawaja aasif..NS...this phenom is rather new..but we must give them there props, although there 'jawan-mardi' is conveneant because noone has been killed in cold blood by army from there families YET...i do recognize that zardari has every reason to be scared shitless n therfore complacent, question though is, is he inherently evil so will dance with estab. or is he just playing dead for the time being...

i dont got time to read all ur interacts so..can u tell me if zardari in fact did have anything to do with murtaza's murder...i dont want to be a cynic at such a level to suggest that he might even be in on bibi's but what about murtaza's?

Tahmed,

Regarding Asadi- It would be better if you guys argue rather than abuse each other. what is stopping you from arguing against his positions? Anyway, that is something you two can deal with more honesty.

Tahmed,
You misunderstood my posts. My comment abt his stepping outside the bounds was with reference to his handicap of being from a smaller province. He is more prone to pay the price with his life like the Bhuttos and the Bugtis did than the Sharifs and the Kazi Hussains of Pakistan. I was not referring to the judges and their movement.

I support the Lawyers movement. Contrary to your thoughts, the Lawyers movement is not against Zardari or the PPP but against the Army, Musharraf and to a larger extent against the US.
Since Zardari holds the power, all these undemocratic forces would come down hard on him to stop the lawyers movement. Everyone plays games within their limitations. Let the Lawyers and Nawaz league move forward and the PPP would follow suit at an appropriate time. The PPP cannot lead this movement for several reasons so it will just play out the time until the things begin to move in the right direction.

HP: further to #83 and looks like perhaps even Zardari himself isnt any longer buying your defense for not bringing the freedom struggle to its logical conclusion by taking Musharraf out and bringing the CJ in.

Musharraf a relic of the past, says Zardari

ISLAMABAD (Agencies) - Giving enough hints that Pervez Musharraf's days in office may be numbered, PPP Co-Chairman Asif Ali Zardari on Thursday said there is 'tremendous' pressure from people who want the President's ouster and that he has 'no choice'.
...The public, Zardari said, is telling the PPP that "we don't want bread, we don't want electricity, but we want Musharraf out". .. For two months, I have been trying to do a whitewash or whatever you may call it... That's okay, let's have national reconciliation, but people are not willing to accept my position on that," Zardari said.

http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/Po litics/23-May-2008/Musharraf-a-relic-of-the-past-says-Zardari

VRV I dont think I was harsh on Fatima Bhutto. I certainly didn't intent to be. All power to a pretty, intelligent, babe like her!

VRV

#HP: as for masadi, I suppose am one of those "weaklings" who you say "routinely abuse him" because I call him a liar and a hypocrite. I dont call posters names unless they have demonstrated such behavior on chowk. I will be glad to substantiate this if you wish.

corrected version of #83

#80 HP: The Chief Justice "stepped out of bounds" (which is the strange term you use for "called for respect for the law and the constitution"). Nawaz Sharif "stepped out of bounds". As did tens of thousands of Pakistanis. And I dont see the US or suicide bombers or the military killing them (as you claim will happen to Zardari if he does the right thing and restores the Chief Justice.

So, I am sorry, but you are using the same convenient excuse for Zardari's selfish actions as you Musharraf did for his (i.e. blame the US, when in fact he is driven by selfish aims). Zardari is making the same mistake Musharraf made - ignoring the strength of civil society (lawyers, journalists, other professional people) in Pakistan.

#80 HP: The Chief Justice "stepped out of bounds" (which is the strange term for "called for respect for the law and the constitution"). Nawaz Sharif "stepped out of bounds". As did tens of thousands of Pakistanis. And I dont see the US "making them step out of bounds".

So, I am sorry, but you are using the same convenient excuse for Zardari's selfish actions as you Musharraf did for his (i.e. blame the US, when in fact he is driven by selfish aims).

It's pointless to blame the baby Bhutto for her riches and her lineage (Naqsh and Kulharee). She's an adult and we shud judge her by what she believes in and speaks out.

U guys are liberal enuf to give her that benefit.

This line of Ras wud linger longer....

'The Bhutto's lives reflect the tragedy of Pakistan too.'

Re: # 70

Zee bhai Nusrat suffers from organic brain disease or Alzheimers

#78 Posted by Urstruly

I am not supporting the PPP or Zardari. I am responding to your nonsense abt the Bhutto family. I was the first one on this site who wrote an article about Benazir to back off. I know exactly what ZAB did and did not do and I am on record with that. I know what is going on in Pakistan a whole lot better than you do. You read papers and I know people who are in the thick of things.

Your only ambition is to find support for the jihadi and Tliban, I look at the things from a patriot’s angle.

I know what Zardari is doing. When you have an army whose generals are professional traitors and when you have the biggest power on the earth breathing down your neck and when you have the supporters of the suicide bombers waiting for an opportunity to rain their bombs on the poor Pakistanis, and when you have millions of Sindhi and Balochi who have been treated like sht in the country- you think through every step of the way.

Benazir’s death happened just months ago and Zardari will die the minute he steps out of the bound. The Nawazs and the Kazi Hussains of that country don’t die or get killed.
It’s the Bugtis and the Bhuttos that get killed. You recall I predicted Benazir’s death….I hope I don’t have predict Zardari’s death too.

The political realities are a whole lot different than your daily stream of Geo news update.

#77 Posted by Urstruly
“it is corruption of politicians like bhutto that makes the "power sitaution". All bhutto had to do was to sit back and refuse to play the games that fouj plays.�

Yes, it is the politicians and not the army boots that make the power situation. Yeah, it was Bhutto’s responsibility to stand up to the army to save the country but the fking army generals had no responsibility whatsoever. Was Bhutto the only Pakistani left in Pakistan? How many other leaders supported the army and why they live now? Those who opposed the army action in Sindh, Baluchistan and Sarhad were called Ghadaar. Hindoon kay agents and Kaafir for not supporting the Pak army that was fighting for Islam in East Pakistan.

This alternate universe that these munafiq live would find every fault with the poor who were not only right but were the only patriots. Look at what happened to them. But the ones that betrayed the country are the heroes. Gen. Yahya was buried with full military honors but Bhutto deserved the gallows for supporting the same Gen. Yahya. What kind of fked up world these isalmic jihadi live in?

“I know you have almost every screw lose in your head and arguing with you is like casting pearls before a swine�

Abusing Masadi is every weakling’s pastime on this site. He has the courage to speak up and say what he thinks is right. No one had ever argued with him to show that he is wrong but everyone thinks that abusing him is good for their ego.

“make a distinction between taliban and these renegade motherfukkers. Talibans are victims of an aggression by 37 countries including their neighbors�

Yeps, the gonda force created by the Army deserves every accolade for running away when the fight got to them. What kind of fking religious warriors were these Taliban that they ran away when they were needed the most?

You don’t even know why you even oppose the army in Pakistan. You oppose an army that actually created your tin pot warriors. You oppose the army which actually brought criminals to Pakistan as Jihadi. Sir, you are actually the biggest supporter of the army in the country.

Why do you even speak out against the army when it was the army who create your heros?

Re: # 76

I am not a jamati, never was; and shit on these mutherfukkers because the reason the shitcreek pakistan is in today is caused as much by bearded whores of JI, JUP etc. as much as fouj. Your argument is ad hominum because there is no way you can answer my objections objectively.

Having said that don't you see that we are once again condemned to repeat the history. PPP was under no compulsion to support this dictator they could have gotten rid of this dictator with in the first week of this government in coaliion with Nawaz league and ANP. Zardari is but one person, now PPP has made his corruption bigger than the party and bigger than the country itself. In other words PPP is nothing but partuy of theives and thugs just like their predecassors Q-League, who just got their turn to fukk pakistan. They have no principles and no morals. All the party had to do was to tell zardari to fukk off; people would have voted for PPP for BB and not zardari anyway. Now tell me who has created this "power situation" for military? isn't it the party of harami once again who went through all the trouble of keep the depot of that time to remain on his head.

Re: # 71
"which the fool rejected because he didn't understand the power situation in the country..... "
There is never a power situation in this country. it is corruption of politicians like bhutto that makes the "power sitaution". All bhutto had to do was to sit back and refuse to play the games that fouj plays. He would have stressed unequivocally to call for the N. Assembly session. Like I said it was impossible for Mujib not to hand over West Pakistan to bhutto in a coalition because only one Awami League member was elected from from WP. Bhutto's "idhar hum udhar tum" in reality meant that "idhar hum, udhar tum aur ooper hamara baap Yehya". Just like PPP's current slogan is center main hum, sindh main MQM, Punjab main Qatil aur ooper hamara baap Mucharaf". Yes zardari the asshole has his problems, the cases against him from murder and kidnapping to monetray corruption were so overwhelming that he had to accept bones from dictator, but what is wrong with 350 other PPP leaders, why do they have to sell their mothers. Look how Aitzaz Ehasn stands up tall in front of all these worthless pye dogs.

I know you have almost every screw lose in your head and arguing with you is like casting pearls before a swine but please make a distinction between taliban and these renegade motherfukkers. Talibans are victims of an aggression by 37 countries including their neighbors and yet they have refused to be victims. On the other hand dogs like bhutto, his family, indra her family, Mujib his family all died by their own people disgracefully. People still pee on yehya's grave and the most prominent sign around his grave does not say "here lies the President of Pakistan", it says" yahan par peshab karna manaa hay"

#67 Posted by Urstruly
The usual and typical JI tirade is so ridiculous and does not even warrant a response. It is like repubs on Fox tv calling death to appeasers without knowing anything abt Chamberlain’s appeasement.

“What mad dog bit Bhutto to side with military and refuse the democratic process –“

Did the army show for a second that they were willing to transfer power if Bhutto had agreed to work with Mujib? Since when the army’s decision depended on what ZAB did? Was sending the army and cancelling the national assembly session ordered by Bhutto? Did Bhutto send PPP jiyala to kill Bengalis?

It was okay to kill Bhutto for supporting the army but it was not okay to even prosecute one Army officer or General for losing the war and causing the dismemberment of the country. So the Generals who ordered the mayhem in Bengal deserved full honors for their display of patriotic duty of destroying the country but a politicians who had no control over the events must die.

If someone had any doubts as to why the army is still in control, they should follow the history and the politics of these religious fanatics in the country. How many JI leaders were prosecuted for Albadar and Alshams?

“The two Bhutto a/h sons of bhutto turned out to be terrorists, planting bombs in Pakistan, through libyan, afghan and Syrian agents, remember Tipu, Ali footballer, and the Hathora group who terrorized people of Pakistan for good so many years.�

The Bhutto kids took the war on the streets against the army were wrong but the suicide bombers who blast buildings, kill innocent bystanders in the name of Islam are A-okay. These munafiq supported every army coup in the country, supported the afghan war even though it was clearly against Pakistan’s interests, and made money from every CIA station in Pakistan. Why they are not punished for their acts of treason but the Bhutto kid who were fighting the army in whatever way they could deserved to die in the streets or at home in France. There were no wide spread bombing in Pakistan. There was no suicide bombing by those kids. But the followers of religion have no qualms abt sending young man to become suicide bombers by offering them money.

I know the Pakistan of that era. There was no reign of terror in the country and compared to what Pakistan has seen in the last five-six years, it was a peaceful place though with a serious political struggle in Sindh.

I and my friends in Sindh denounced the high jacking publicly the day it happened but can you for once denounce the murdering criminals that haunt the poor Pakistanis every day in the name of Islam. Can you denounce the mofo suicide bombers who after smoking hashish and heroine go on a rampage against the poor people?

How many Jamaat leaders have been killed in Pakistan for sponsoring the Suicide bombing in the country? How many have even been prosecuted?

#72 Masadi Sahib, I have read your articles, and yes they are heads and shoulders above mine. I never claim to be a writer, let alone a good one. But I can tell you this, when I write, a lot of people get annoyed at me. I don’t know why that is.

I am wholeheartedly in favor of having your work published.

Re: # 69

HP

{She is wrong abt Zardari having a hand in his father’s death}

Assumin one was to believe these allegations, its difficult to believe that BB would have sided with her husband against her own flesh and blood.

Then who ordered the hit? It certainly was a hit job or as they would say in Pakistan extra judicial murder. Any ideas?

Re: # 70

{I heard all she does is stare blankly in space.}

It's called Alzheimer's disease. And yes, she is the victim in this tragedy.

Kulharee writes "How come you are never disapproving of Karachi writers? "

What makes you think I live in Karachi?...fool. And regarding Paracha, I have challenged his ideas and thoughts on multiple articles...My "lower intellectual calibre" articles are still heads and shoulders above yours and certainly above the Gill's and Shrink's articles...

Urstruly writes "What mad dog bit Bhutto to side with military and refuse the democratic process..."

ZAB and not Mujib was the real factor behind the elections and the fall of the Ayub regime, understanding what the military manipulations were going to be, (only an idiot will conclude that the military would give up power by "allowing the democratic process to go on") the foregone conclusion of the separation of the East he offered a "democratic" compromise to Mujib, the "idhar hum udhar tum", which the fool rejected because he didn't understand the power situation in the country..... while we talk about people getting killed like dogs, let us talk about your friends the Talibans and their predecessors the Mujahideen who literally got butchered like dogs in the millions because the US and the the Zia ul Fcuq sent them off on a holy jihad, wonder what you think of their alliance with the na-pak fauj, all through its history...

#69 Posted by HP,

I agree Zardari couldn't have carried out the operation which killed Murtaza Bhutto.

The real victim in all this tragedy of the Bhutto family, is Begum Nusrat Bhutto, who just couldn't cope with all this and lost her mind. I heard all she does is stare blankly in space.

I think Dalrymple is just out there to make money. There is no reason for this article. She is Bhutto’s granddaughter but hasn’t done anything to warrant this attention.

She is wrong abt Zardari having a hand in his father’s death. She not only accuses Zardari but Benazir too which is just pathetic. No police officer in Pakistan was going to help Zardari in this deed. Pakistani bureaucrats are not idiots and they are well versed in the power games played in Pakistan.

Both Tariq Ali and the copy man Dalrymple are wrong abt how Murtaza won elections in Sindh.

He had filed to contest from at least thirty seats and would have lost on all of them but for Mrs. Nusrat Bhutto who went door to door begging people to vote for Murtaza for one seat. The PPP or the Benazir’s nominee on that seat refused to campaign against Mrs. Nusrat Bhutto.

On other seats, the PPP nominees too did not campaign against Murtaza. Still people would not vote for him because Murtaza was not a PPP nominee.

re #65

Esteemed Chowk Staff. Please publish Masadi’s BS. Thanks. Otherwise this joker is not going to shut up and torture everyone with his nonsense.

Masadi Sahib, may be your articles don’t get published because they are of lower intellectual caliber and nothing but full of hatred? How come you are never disapproving of Karachi writers? Are you afraid that they might come and beat the daylights out of you? How come you are only critical of writers who live 1000s of mile away from you. You chicken. Let’s see you take a panga with Paracha.

Re: # 63

Allow me to answer this question. The simple answer is that whoever has done wrong to pakistan has died like a dog. First of all take Bhutto senior, he played in the hands of military junta to create a transfer of power crisis where there was none. Awami League had won the election, it should have been given opportunity to form government and it is a no brainer that it would have been a coalition government with Bhutto having majority in West Pakistan. What mad dog bit Bhutto to side with military and refuse the democratic process - oh the mad dog was napak fouj, fukking pirs, and m/f jagirdars of pakistan. So they would rather biforcate the country than let rule people. See how this triad of m/fs are supporting this motherfukker dictator even at the expense of breaking up of Pakistan. So bhutto wrote his own fate by harming Pakistan just as Indra Gandhi, her family mujib and his family did.

The two Bhutto a/h sons of bhutto turned out to be terrorists, planting bombs in Pakistan, through libyan, afghan and Syrian agents, remember Tipu, Ali footballer, and the Hathora group who terrorized people of Pakistan for good so many years. For years it remained a crimuinal offence to park your car in Raja bazar and pindi cantt unless a person was sitting in it for fear of bombs. The hijacking of PIA aircraft and cold blodded murder of an unarmed army officer aboard that plane and promising to kill other passengers, one every hour if their demands were not met sealed the fate of both asswhole bhutto sons. Benazir Bhutto expressed her glee and satisfaction at the Islamabad girls school massacre where close to 2000 school girls aged between 6 years to 16 were mercilessly massacred by this m/f dictator and his madarchod fouj. That is what sealed her fate. May God's curse be on this family and all those who have harmed Pakistan forever.

g'night

Can someone ask Chowk Staff why they have censored yet another article of mine on the Judges issue, that happened to be one of the dominant political issues in Pakistan at this time, when they choose to publish all kinds of BS by Gill, Shrink, Kulharee & co. Now the first three or four censored articles might have seemed "cute" but this wholesale banning of my articles and thoughts is outrageous, ignorant, barbaric and idiotic, not to mention extremely frustrating for a writer who was told upon joining that everyone was free to write here. Now, should the members who are being deprived by these Musharrafesque qualities of the Chowk staff just sit around and do nothing while these sobs rob them of what is their right here, a right to discuss varied points of view?

Re: # 63

HP

{What was so gross that a whole generation is wiped out and people still talk abt what comes around...}

Exactly my feelings.

#61 Posted by Naqshbandi
"It is an idiom. What goes around comes around"

I understand that and that's why I wanna find out what they did that comes around to hound them? What was so gross that a whole generation is wiped out and people still talk abt what comes around...

#54 Posted by tahmed32,

Well, tahmed, as I said below I was driving to the Clifton block-5 Park (commonly known as Auty Park) at about 6:30 pm. This park is located in the lane next to the British Consulate and one needs to make a U-turn into it, while coming from the Clifton Monument site, from opposite of just approaching 70-Clifton where there's a cut in the road. Alongside the road there's another small park where I saw men in trees and two Police mobiles parked next to the curb. I had wondered what policemen were doing in trees and braked to see, but a policemen waved me on because there was a blockade ahead. I went on for my jog and heard the news when reached back home.

According to my knowledge, there was no exchange of gunfire. The snipers in the trees shot dead each of the six guards in the open back of Murtaza's double-cabin pickup, and Murtaza himself through the windshield - all with a single bullet without their ever getting a chance to reach for their weapons. It is not true Murtaza came out with his hands up. He staggered out when he was already shot in the throat and trying to escape, and fell on the street. The firing for 10-15 minutes therafter was just hawai firing (aerial shots) to make it look like a Police Muqaabla.

All of the above is true.

HP:

Please don't try to second guess what my thoughts or reasons are. I only asked if she was a Sunni because of the very fact that most Sindhis i know of who go to dargahs and pirs etc. are sunnis just like i am. also most traditional sunnis also commemorate and hold mahafil during muharram although they don't do majlis--again just like i do.

personally, i think ZAB was a great politiican and the best pakistani leader of all times save the Qaid.
the sword quote was from Jesus alayhisalam and not meant literally. It is an idiom. What goes around comes around.

For the record i am a big fan of Sindhi Islam.
Nor am I against the Bhuttos. I was commenting on the tragedy which seems to be the lot of all great political families. Those who chase the duniya are always disgraced by the duniya. The duniya is a faithless mistress!

#55 Posted by SR,

Sohail I was driving to the aunty park for my daily jog which is right across the street in a lane from where this incident occured. What's the problem with you?

#51 Posted by rf786

“Correction: According to BB's latest book, ZAB was Sunni while Nusrat is Shia, if that makes any difference. Why all this interest in their religious beliefs, I wonder.�

Right on Arif. The Bhuttos follow the shia traditions even though they may be sunni and that is pretty much true for most of the sindhis. ZAB often wore Black Shalwar Kamiz during the first ten days of Moharam but I doubt that he ever attended any majlis.

I look at it in a different way. I think some in Karachi are so biased that they just have to find something to malign them because they are a Sindhi family. For Naqashbandi Shia is a slur.

Naqashbandi writes, 'those who live by the sword die by sword'. This is just so ridiculous. One may not agree with their politics but can he explain this remark? The Bhuttos have every facet of their lives explored in public and still we have some ignorant who just keep on taking cheap shots at them.

In Sindh, there is no Sunni-Shia divide. Pretty much all Sindhi observe Moharam but those who don’t; don’t go out and take pride in not observing it. Islam in Sindh is all abt saints, pirs and sufis. There is no doubt that Sindhi persevere with both Buddhism and Hinduism cultural influences. Sindhi retain the so called Hindu customs and that is the Sindhi culture. People below the middleclass threshold don’t care much abt the religion though they would be found in dargahs and mazars.

Muslims in the central India, whether they ruled or were under the Brits, continuously had to distinguish themselves from the Hindus. In Sindh, South Punjab, and in Baluchistan there really was no need for that. Even the Muslim rulers who stayed in Sindhi, adopted the Sindhi culture. For the people who came from India that was the Hindu culture.

Years ago, Sindhi rarely even used Salam or Khuda Hafiz. Sindhi greet people by putting both hands together, palms touching, and still touch elders’ feet to show respect.

The amount of ignorance that comes out of some people from the urdu speaking families is just astonishing. They probably know more abt the US and England than the people who live right next door.

the vast majority of whom went from bad to worse,

Ras writes "William,

What is the purpose of this article now? "

William, the plagirist, doesn't have a clue about the "purpose" but what emerges from this second hand rendition of the events is that the real tragedy in all of these manipulations and cooptations and power struggles, were the lost decades for the people of Pakistan, the vast majority of whom when from bad to worse, and an entire generation was lost and the fate of the next written off as well. The purpose was that what was lost with the butchering of the ZAB, instead of continuing with the same struggle, Benazir compormised and made a pact with the devil who did her in at the end- she was a fool who couldn't understand how pacts with the devil end, and when correction was sought earlier, she acted as bystander facilitating the butchering of her brother. Now when we see the PPP hijacked by the sob Zardari, converted into the Pakistan Army's whore, we are even further away from ZAB's political movement the incorporated the people into the power equation, so to prevent the destruction of the only people's movement this country ever had, a Bhutto (and family is very much necessary in our political condition where the Army has ruined institutions and recognition for moving the masses is based more on a name than on any structure) is necessary to move the party back into the people's camp and rescue it from the thug Zardari. That is where Fatima Bhutto's role comes in, how smart she is in pushing her way in to achieve that we have yet to see. You on the otherhand talk the ZAB talk but go along with every idiot, one of which was the BB, to facilitate the undoing of a people's movement. The tragedy and loss was more for the people of Pakistan by the initial undoing by Zia ul Fcuq, than for the Bhutto family as such....

Wow HP. So Darlymple plagiarized this article off Tariq Ali.

But I think maybe Chowk got the Author's name wrong or it was misused, because Darlymple is a well-known and published journalist just as Tariq Ali is. I don't think he would have or needed to do that.

Re: # 54 ["zeemax...what were you doing there?..."]

Don't expect a straight answer from him. I'll tell you. He was an operative for one of the notorious "agencies" in Pakistan and was himself involved (though a bit in directly) in that as well as other 'extra judicial' executions. His hands are full of innocent blood. His Islamic pretentions are just a false pretext to gain insider access into the Taliban. In fact he is an American agent. Don't let him fool you.

If it wasn't for the, hard to obtain in Islamabad, Cabernet Sauvignon, I wouldn't be exposing him.

...SR

zeemax: the hell with the author (and all chowk authors who dont interact on chowk). you can tell us though - what were you doing there?

Author,

The police snipers were ready in position; some had climbed up the trees lining the avenue to get clear shots. Their guns were loaded, the roadblocks had been erected, the surrounding lanes sealed off.

I'm an eyewitness to that. I actually saw men sitting in trees and Police mobiles alongside and I wondered what the hell was going on.

Re: # 49

Ras

Which year are you talking about? Mir Murtaza passed out by the time Shahnawaz started in 4th or 5th grade? Shahnawaz was a year senior to me.

Re: # 46

akcheema

Correction: According to BB's latest book, ZAB was Sunni while Nusrat is Shia, if that makes any difference. Why all this interest in their religious beliefs, I wonder.

Ras,

You are correct that their lives have been tragic. Whatever the faults of the Bhuttos the loss of a parent or sibling is always tragic.

Then again, 'those who live by the sword die by sword'

William,

What is the purpose of this article now?

BB is dead and buried. Fatima is the naive daughter

of an idealistic father who just could not fit in

to the power picture. He was a fine person who due to

circumstances beyond his control developed a hot temper.

What a waste of lives and talent.

The Bhutto's lives reflect the tragedy of Pakistan too.

One can only wish Fatima well but are we not trying to

play politics here with her tragedy?

I used to see Mir,Shahnawaz and Sanam often at KGS during

the turbulent year of 1971. What tragic lives they

have had. And I don't even remember AZ at all.

Just as any one saying kalma becomes Muslim anyone saying he/she is Shia is so.There is no rascial difference .A shia politician can become sunni any time..from khoja ismaili bohra naqhbandi deobandi bareilvi all those can of worms

Just as any one saying kalma becomes Muslim anyone saying he/she is Shia is so.There is no rascial difference .A shia politician can become sunni any time..from khoja ismaili bohra naqhbandi deobandi bareilvi all those can of worms

Re: # 45; naqsh bhai

ZAB was shia too; his mother was hindu if it helps

was she? proof please!
her mum being a shia doesn't mean she was necessarily one. her dad was a sunni. am i right that almost all the feudal pirs of sindh are sunni?

Re: # 43; nb

when people 'cross into' such higher levels beyond the grasp of mere mortals, all this becomes irrelevant

"believing" is all the virtue one needs; have you learnt nothing from Zeemax?

as long as one can 'pass' as a "believer", ritualism (such as it is defined by the high'n'mighty) takes a back seat....willingly or un-willingly

Benazir was a Shia, Naqshabandi, even unworthy non-Pakistanis such as I know that.

re:the case of plagiarism.

having just read the entire article by tariq ali at http://www.lrb.co.uk/v29/n24/ali_01_.html

i don't think mr. dalrymple is guilty. ali's article is totally different in focus [and well worth reading]. methinks they both probably spke to fatima alone who reiterated the same story to them.

i find it fascinating to read--in ali's article--that BB [may Allah forgive her her sins and grant her jannah] was a strong believer in pirs -- the awliya of Allah! and blamed her first govt's dismissal due to her having angered a pir!
subhan Allah.

Does this suggest her family belong to traditional sunni islam of the masses .ie. "Barelvi" ?

But her mum was a Shia I believe?

Mai PhataaN is only 25% Pakistani. She is half Afghan and ¼ Iranian, which makes her 98% airhead. The only thing she has going for her is her undergrad education at a fine NYC school. Other than that, she is just another Desi bimbo (Masadi will agree with me on that) with ambitions bigger than herself. Not to be denigrating, but I will buy her hair-care products if she decides to go into that line of business.

As if we have not had enough of them idiots. Instead of fighting oppression (or honor killing in which her provinces leads the world) and religious bigotry and intolerance, every moron wants to become a “leader�. Leader of what? The same old same old?

nb #35 all said, if benazir divided her family in this power struggle, it would be a reach to have hoped that she would unite the nation. anyway, she has paid with her life, and may she rest in peace..and more important, may the nation find peace as well..

..but then, he was a frenchman..

#36 the face helps. the managing director of IMF was so charmed by bb when he met her first time, he came back harping to his staff about how "benazir was God's gift to Pakistan".

Re: # 36; Naqsh sahib,
"Meanwhile the poor man is thinking of when his next meal is going to be..."

not that I disagree but why the long face?

Cheer up man!

A fascinating read--ah, how different the lives of the rich and powerful are. And how sordid! It was ever thus. This reads like something from the Julio-Claudian dynasty's intrigues.

BTW am I being overtly cynical or is the Western press's interest in Fatima Bhutto more due to her pretty and photogenic face?

She is a beauty! Something else which wealth provides...the wealthy, powerful,man can marry the beautiful woman to produce beautiful children who marry other rich and beautiful people thus producing a genetic pool of attractiveness...

Meanwhile the poor man is thinking of when his next meal is going to be...

#25 Dalrymple is not an idiot. Surely you underestimate Fatima Bhutto. She is the daughter and granddaughter of politicians; wouldn't she know how to preserve her credibility? I'm sure she has had the same story for many years, and I'm sure she's sticking to it; she gave several interviews around the time her aunt returned to Pakistan and was later killed. She is old enough now to tell the same story with the same words. Furthermore, it probably is the truth the way she saw it.

Re: # 25

HP Sahib

Take this plagiarist to the dry cleaners but lets not throw the baby with the water.

Fatima Bhutto shows some excellent qualities as a writer, thinker, social worker and human being. She has yet to announce her political ambitions and has been very careful when asked the same question. I say, we give her a chance, she definately has suffered more than many others, and has earned her wings as someone who can lead from the front. Anyways, I am biased because of her beautiful looks and charming personality. And of course, she is a Bhutto an additional advantage.

Beej bhaiyya,

Re: #32

We are usually at loggerheads with each other. But I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiments expressed by you in #32. (Thumbs up wala icon)

Regards

Re: # 20

[you are the most competent, intelligent, sensitive, caring, passionate, brave and resilliant girl with leadership qualities and charming persona...go, fight for your country]

Little sis, it is no accident that those very words (or very similar words) come to our collective minds when we think of YOU and contrast you with the vast majority of chowk men who are so lacking in those exact characteristics! :((

Re: # 25

HP, I feel honored to be mentioned in the same breath as the great Dalrymple! :) :)

You, my dear, sound positively jealous!

Get off it!

HP do you think Tariq Ali can sue The Times and take William to the cleaners? Sure from the Book review Article it appears that there might be a case.

Unless ofcourse both used the same source - as Hamzaad has suggested

May be someone can answer this. If Zardari is behind the murder of Murtaza, why didn't Musharaf used some of the witnesses and the police who participated in the murder to totally discredit BB and Zardari?
thx

Re: # 25 HP tariq Ali would have seen this article as well last Sunday. It has been trailed for a week in the Times, and it appeared in the sunday times magazine. as an extended version of this. Anyway here is the url for the web-based version

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article3932406.ece

It says some thing about the Pakistani voters.
In spite of all that squandering and what not done by the political Mian, Bibi (and her husband), as is reported ad nouseam in the media, they still recycled them twice over and expect them to be "borne again" patriotic, democratic and squeaky clean politicians!
At least the first one was pictured washing the Kabaa when taken by the Saudis. Does that say some thing?
Rashid

by voting for BB and rejecting Murtaza Bhutto, people of Pakistan, Sindh in particular, rejected the notion that PPP was a party of inheritance.

What does Fatima Bhutto count for? but for the fact that she is a granddaughter of ZAB? and a daughter of a failed mother?

http://letusbuildpakistan.blogspot.com

What is plagiarism, if this is not it?

She was 14 years old and was able to recall and narrated the conversation back to two people in exactly the same way. Word for word!

You see how Tariq ali uses “she gave me� and Dalrymple skips it quickly.

I mean if BJ had written this article then plagiarism was not a big deal because that’s what we expect from BJ…But here we have an internationally renowned historian not even mentioning Tariq Ali’s name once.

I have sent the link to Tariq Ali. I hope he drops a copy of his letter to Dalrymple to chowk too.


Tariq Ali:
“At this point, a remarkably composed Fatima Bhutto, aged 14, decided to ring her aunt at Prime Minister’s House. The conversation that followed remains imprinted on her memory and a few years ago she gave me an account of it. It was Zardari who took her call:

Fatima: I wish to speak to my aunt, please.
Zardari: It’s not possible.
Fatima: Why? [At this point, Fatima says she heard loud wails and what sounded like fake crying.]
Zardari: She’s hysterical, can’t you hear?
Fatima: Why?
Zardari: Don’t you know? Your father’s been shot.

Dalrymple:
“After another 45 minutes, an increasingly worried Fatima called the prime minister’s house and asked to speak to her aunt. Benazir’s husband, Asif Ali Zardari, took her call. Fatima recalls the following conversation:

Fatima: “I wish to speak to my aunt, please.�
Zardari: “It’s not possible.�
Fatima: “Why?� [At this point, Fatima says, she heard loud, stagy-sounding wailing.]
Zardari: “She’s hysterical, can’t you hear?�
Fatima: “Why?�
Zardari: “Don’t you know? Your father’s been shot.�