Zardari and the Politics of Defiance

"The reason Zardari has given for taking this about turn to confront the presidency is reflective of the mood of society. The fact that the people had made it clear to the PPP that, “We do not want bread, we do not want electricity, but we want him (Musharraf) out� had to be taken into account."

AZ needs to rethink the statement above. The people WANT
bread, they WANT electricity, they WANT water too, and as to Musharraf they are kind of ambivalent...

Ras

"Zardari has agreed to ‘oust’ Musharraf, claims Nawaz

LAHORE: PPP Co-chairman Asif Ali Zardari has agreed to expel President Pervez Musharraf from power, PML-N chief Nawaz Sharif said on Wednesday. “I have spoken with Zardari [in a meeting on Tuesday] that we should throw [Musharraf] out ... and he agreed to do so,� (News)

Zardari "agreed to do so" and you believed him -- what soft core naivity from a hard core politician like Nawaz Sharif sahib -- sir, -- the proof of the pudding is in eating -- the easiest way for Zardari sahib to oust Musharraf sahib will be to just restore CJ Iftikhar Chaudhry and do nothing else -- but will Zardari sahib do that -- I doubt it -- the "muraa hoowaa" Murree Accord -- should have opened your eyes Nawaz Sahib long ago!

Pleeze Nawaz Sahib don't put words in Zardari's forked tongue mouth -- let him talk from both corners of his mouth.

The more appropriate title of this article should be -- "Zardari and the Politics of Pliance".

The more appropriate title of this article should be -- "Zardari and the Politics of Plianc".

Sorry Pakis could not resist that crack

Sorry wrong Board

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correction #109, read "just as they encourage manipulations by the civilians into the military which in actuality is their own death warrant that they sign.."

as

"just as they encourage manipulations by the civilians into the military which in actuality results in the civilians signing their own death warrant

meaning they will now encourage the powerless Musharraf to do something that will result in his removal (and hopefully a public hanging where the crows are allowed to pick on his carcass)..

GEO had one thing correct, in the Mush and Bush cartoon where the fool sings to the bigger fool saying..."Bhoolega dil jis din tumhe Woh din zindagi ka aakhri din hoga... Kya hua tera waada ....

g'night

This is what I posted yesterday on this thread

#35 Posted by masadi on May 24, 2008 12:25:25 pm
The author writes "The reason Zardari has given for taking this about turn to confront the presidency is reflective of the mood of society."

Not the mood of society rather the mood of the "powers that be" who like I said want to incorporate the political into the power equation of the country moreso than the past, an establishmentized political institution that works and cooperates with the miltary but is not ousted by it. Together with this about turn comes the announcement that the US would prefer the ISI to work under the civilian government! This thug is manipulating on behalf of the US/Pak Army, Musharraf is a nobody now without Army and US support and if he goes it will be because he has lost it and that day, it seems, is coming. All of these manipulations are for the prime reason of not restoring the judiciary because that would be a step towards REAL democracy of which the US/Pak Army are mortally afraid. These manipulations want to coopt the people's movement led by the lawyers, they want to coopt the other welcome side effect, i.e. the personal enmity between the NS and Musharraf that is leading to postitive results for the judiciary, and they want to coopt the anti-military sentiments of the military. Zardari is an Army peon through and through, he should be ignored and the protests should continue...His confidence in his declaration comes from assurances from the devil, the US elite themselves and he has military support- and as we know BB's "confidence in the devil" ended with disaster, so will his and in all these manipulations, the people of Pakistan will emerge victorious, inshallah...

-----

Today we got the news about the Musharraf, Kiyani preceived fallout providing evidence regarding what I said. The US will gladly sacrifice that sob in the Army House (Musharraf) to salvage this new power equation they are constructing, one in which the military remains behind the scenes, and the people's sentiments are coopted. They will not risk damaging the pakistan military for Musharraf, and they will not tolerate any "real" democracy in Pakistan, therefore they are achieving a three pronged objective by these manipulations: i) salvaging the military ii) getting rid of someone hated by the people to coopt their (and NS's) emotions iii) preventing the restoration of the judges which will be a blow to the military and a foundation for the real democracy to take root in this country. Zardari's new-found b@lls are borrowed from the US/Pakistan Army, what I said yesterday and evidence for which emerged today...GEO commentators are dismissing this fallout but it is REAL in all probability and will be encouraged by the military itself to get rid of that sorry bas****, just as they encourage manipulations by the civilians into the military which in actuality is their own death warrant that they sign. The retired generals have ZERO role to play in all this, once the uniform goes the power goes and so does the institutional mindset that is why those fools are making big noise now...

Re: # 102
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uCNdI0xJ1s

Rangeela is up there

Tahmed chachoo thanks for the link, in many ways the CJ is on the on the side of the angels, - whether that side can win or not is the real question. Angels dont have a good track record in politics.

Indiana flick was good, a little predictable though.

agreed. i need to be off to bed. good night.

Tahmed,
"his contempt for the "unwashed masses" is quite genuine"

I don't agree with you on that but on the other hand in Pakistani politics poor masses are just voters.


Okay I am tired of talking abt him behind his back..I would rather watch Rangeela!

HP #102 I dont think anyone with any sense would waste time listening to an individual (like Zardari in this case) who does not respect his own word. So, lets hope Hamidm doesnt do that.

cb #101 i hear it is a great movie. i plan to see it. right now i am listening to the Chief Justice's speech, delivered earlier today. i think every Pakistani should hear it. it's here:

http://pkpolitics.com/2008/05/24/chief-justice-to-faisalabad/#v8

Tahmed,
No! I am not calling him a clown.

You know the man has geo and watches every curve in fitay chaudry's motorway journey. He knows more abt fitay's eyes than we all put together. He is as frustrated as you are.
You provide the entertainment he needs after watching Zardari make speeches in English. That must be driving him nuts.

They have Rangeela on Geo..He singing a song...The man could have parodied Zardari for our entertainment but he is no more and we have to live with Hamid on the Net.

lol...yes!!! this makes for great TV , i mean i just saw indiana jones and the action there couldnt hope to compete :)

cb: so, you are sitting on the sidelines with popcorn..

HP: more seriously, hamidm would have to be totally insane to behave the way you describe it.

i beg to differ: his contempt for the "unwashed masses" is quite genuine, as is his instinctive bowing to whoever he thinks is going to be in power.

Hamidm has a great sense of humor and is a gentleman by chowk standards as well (doesnt start abusing at the mildest irritation). But the above contempt for the weak and veneration for the strong is also, unfortunately, quite genuinue. But he is not totally insane, as your desciption would make it out to be.

hamidm needs a muse and we all need some entertainment, besides chachoo lands some solid punches himself :)

i say - let the games continue !

HP: are you calling hamidm a clown?

Tahmed,
Hamid is going to tease you, provoke you, and ridicule you. You will get mad, lose control, and write posts after post abt him being insensitive and outrageous!

He will laugh in front of his comp. screen and visualize you pulling your hair and at the end of your wits. The more you get mad, the more fun it would be for him.

The man is almost a sadist and a pervert with a sense of humor that can drive people upto the walls.
It is up to you. Take him seriously and pull your hair out or take him lightly and enjoy a couple of jokes with him.
I think I wrote too much and spoiled Hamid's fun...

further to #94: ..or maybe I dont understand the point you are making. In which case, what are you saying?

#93 HP: What exactly is so outrageous in my saying that the rule of law is the pre-requisite for the development of Pakistan? And what exactly is so smart in denigrating any community of people, let alone one's own, as Hamidm is doing?

I wait for enlightenment.

Tahmed,
You are fast becoming the new Romair, the new Asadi for Hamidm. Watch out. this will be a tiring journey!

hamidm: let me repeat, oh genius, for the nth time - I am not interested in your predictions about who will or will not be the "rising sun". I am interested only in who is doing the right thing and who is not. So, dont keep coming back with your latest, revised predictions of whether musharraf will stay or go.

Since this concept is proving very hard for you to grasp, I am going to put it in bold so you can perhaps focus on it a little better: It doesnt matter whether musharraf is the "rising sun" or the setting sun and how long he clings to power. So quit coming back with your latest, greatest prediction. What matters is the rule of law, and what matters is that for years is that he has abused his powers as military chief to break the supreme law of the land.

things that really matter:

redwings zindabad !
penguins murdabad !

things that don't matter:

musharraf murdabad !
droopy eyed cj murdabad !
shikh rashid zindabad !

tahmed bewakoof, please note that i said musharraf 'murdabad' .... why? because i think he will be gone in a few months - six tops ..... why? because zardari has decided to dump him .........

..... but nothing, absolutely nothing, will change for the unwashed masses of pakistan .... in a year or so nawaz sharif and zardari will be at each others throats and we will be back to square one ..... elections, hung parliament, horse trading, political murders, suicide bombers fanning out from ichra and swat .... zardari will be assassinated and bilawal bhutto will ascend the throne in larkana .. nawaz sharif will die of a heart attack while atacking a plate of biryani and mohsin sharif will ascend the throne in lahore ........ the generals will go back to plotting their return and the people of pindi will realize their mistake and elect sheikh rashid .......

zeemax: I have to go. cheer.

Pakistani people zindabad!!
hamidm..er.never mind..

Wow tahmed you mustn't miss this. A woman lawyer on the dice. Amazing orator! This thing is on a roll!

#86 Posted by HP,

Yes they refused to fight after the Kohat tunnel event.

HP, you are totally ignorant. You don't know anything about Pakistan. You only know Hyderabad I guess.

... and yes, if I wasn't a democrat, tahmed saheb, I wouldn't be up waiting for CJ speech till 4:00 am. He should speak anytime now.

#84 Posted by zeemax

You are just disgusting...Reading post is like following the army rule book and you want constitution restored? You can't respect the people of your own country, you can't also respect the constitution because that constitutions protects them from unlawful attacks from the army.

"Not anymore. Punjabi soldiers refused to obey orders to fight in Waziristan and FC was used being gullible."

Iss saadgi par koon na mar jaya aiy khuda!

#83 Posted by tahmed32

"provincial autonomy" is fine, but it is simply a means to achieve a more fundamental goal .... And mullahs are not the only individuals in Swat or Bajaur

If you think Fazlullah does not represent a vast majority of Swatis, you would be very wrong. Swatis want Shariah rule and have wanted it since the Wali Swat abdicated to Pakistan. Wali's rule itself was something like Shariah. Did you know that? Jirgas and all?

#77 Posted by HP,

Were Bangalis not Pakistani

No. Not after the six points.

Were Balochi not Pakistani

Yes they are. The secessionist element supported by India (which still survives in bits) was attacked.

were Sindhis not Pakistan

Of-course they were. How many Dakoos were eliminated in that operation? You know very well the entire Sukkur till Ghotki belt was RULED by dacoits as well as the National Highway from Dadu till Sadiqabad. You're just pretending you don't know to win this argument.

You are actually saying that the army will not attack the punjabis.

Yes. Punjab is 70% of Pakistan and that is a fact.

Are the pathan not Pakistani now? Who the fk is killing them---you or me?

Not anymore. Punjabi soldiers refused to obey orders to fight in Waziristan and FC was used being gullible. But they refused too. Why do you think army withdrew?

zeemax: in that case you and i have different priorities - "provincial autonomy" is fine, but it is simply a means to achieve a more fundamental goal.

That goal is respect for the rights and liberties of the individual.

And mullahs are not the only individuals in Swat or Bajaur, so you are calling for the same thing there as hamidm is calling for the rest of Pakistan - rule by an "elite group" that depends not on the people but on their brute power. So, you are and are on opposite sides on this issue.

good night

#74 Posted by ijaz_gul
"Kayani according to Sehgal makes Mush itchy to ditch him while he has the powers."

Mush has no power to ditch the COAS. He is like the Nawaz of 1999 but now army will not tolerate any disruption of the command structure. They may not support the civilians but they will act to support their interest.

I do think that army is perhaps looking for a way out and might ask Mush to leave but for that to happen, we may have to see some more escalation in the lawyers movement. You create fissure points by working on them and taking one step at a time. That appears to be the Nawaz strategy.

Until the amry say so, there is no mai ka laal in Pakistan who can remove Mush from the army house. And to make the army say so, you need to build pressure on the streets.

#76 Posted by tahmed32

Perhaps you should be more careful what you right so there is no confusion on where you stand.

Okay, this is where i stand for your future reference:

I stand for the 1973 constitution of Pakistan, which states it is an Islamic Republic, and what guarantees it contains including Provincial autonomy.

That autonomy includes the Mullahs in Swat and Bajaur if they want it that way. That's all.

zeemax #78 agreed.

#74 Posted by ijaz_gul,

Army wants the house vacated.

The Retired Generals in the ex-Army association today have demanded it. And if anyone thinks these are just retired Generals, they don't know the army at all. The army has a lot of respect and loyalty for their out of uniform. A soldier never retires and that would have included Musharraf too had he left honorably. Now he is very bad for Army's image and they know that. I think none else but the army will deal him a very cruel blow.

#71 Posted by zeemax
"Either the constitution will be upheld, or a VERY violent uprising. And the Pakistan Army will NOT go against the people as HP seems to think."

That is why I don't discuss politics with children.Or the socalled grown ups who live in a make-believe world.

It may get violent before you get the constitution. But saying that army will not go against the people of Pakistan is like submerging your head into the sand.

Were Bangalis not Pakistani, Were Balochi not Pakistani, were Sindhis not Pakistan when the mofo army attacked them? You are actually saying that the army will not attack the punjabis. Are the pathan not Pakistani now? Who the fk is killing them---you or me?

You cross the line and you will see how this army would jump on you in Punjab. You are dealing with the mercenaries and not some National army. Get hold of your sense and learn a few things before using the keyboard.
I am now totally poed!

zeemax: i may be naive, but it certainly seems from your post that you are applauding, not warning, of mullahs coming to power via the gun. Perhaps you should be more careful what you right so there is no confusion on where you stand.

HP #65 People of Pakistan are learning to respect the constitution the hard way - to Musharraf's blatant trampling over their basic rights and the Chief Justice risking life and sacrificing the chance to join Mush and his lotas in looting the country. Indeed, US state bar association websites have articles from US lawyers questioning themselves if they would show the same dedication and self-sacrifice in defense of the constitution as the Pakistani lawyers have done. So, Pakistanis who need lessons in the importance of the constitution are not the ordinary people or civil society.

It is unfortunate that it has dragged on so long (thanks to musharraf and now zardari), since this revolution is costly in a number of ways. But, without the rule of law, Pakistan would have to bear the even greater cost of rule by lotas and ghoondas.

there are strong rumours of faultlines.
Kayani according to Sehgal makes Mush itchy to ditch him while he has the powers.

Also, Zardari is expected to share the pie with your friend Afrasiab, but not NS, because the US wants so.

Army wants the house vacated.

Re: # 67

hp,

stop blaming the army for flaunting the constitution - they couldn't have done it without the judges ..... i think all the judges, droopy eyed or not, should be fired and we should abolish the supreme court and let the panchayats and tribal jirgas handle judicial matters ...... the judiciary in pakistan, along with all other institutions, is a joke ...... the only institution that seems to work is the patwari - he makes the rules and everyone plays by them ....

#67 Posted by HP,

Yes HP, but I believe it is not the same army anymore after getting its ass kicked in Waziristan and Swat and its Lt. General slaughtered on the street in 'Pindi.

#64 Posted by tahmed32,

HP is an anarchist. You're naive Sir, if you haven't discovered that.

And no, you are totally wrong that I'm for Mullah rule rule-by-the-gun in Pakistan. You haven't discovered that either. But indeed that will come about if people like HP do not understand and people like you support him.

No insults intended of-course, but it is a very delicate time, has been for over a year now. Either the constitution will be upheld, or a VERY violent uprising. And the Pakistan Army will NOT go against the people as HP seems to think. They too need to live in Pakistan in the end. They know they will be asked to go and pick watermelons as salary as the ex-Soviet army did.

Do you remember the image of Soviet soldiers marching in a fruit farm and carrying watermelons off at their chests like guns?

hamidm: of course, of course. ha! ha!

Pakistani people zindabad!
Hamidm and his lota heroes..er..um..whatever..

#66 Posted by ijaz_gul o
Hp,
I agree. we are on the difficult 50% now."

well Ijaz we are moving forward.The progress has been made in the last couple of months.

I think Zaradri's move to the lash out at Mush takes it to 60% but still a long way in Pakistan's context.

We don't know what the US pov is. The WOT is the the primary factor and no one should forget that.

.... this is all dramay bazee ...

nobody - the badmash zardari, the droopy eyed cj, zia's step-son nawaz, musharaf the dictator wannabe, the lawyers and the unwashed masses - nobody, is doing what they are doing because they believe in democracy or in the constitution ..... the constitution is like that other book that these idiots claim to hold holy - it is not worth the paper it is written on ... maybe they should have written it on palm leaves so that we could blame it on the goats ....

........ everyone is doing it for their own personal reasons - power, money, absolute power, hatred for their adversary, revenge ..... all of them are driven by their ego and lust for power and they are willing to throw abdul and his ten starving children under the bus as long as they can get what they want ..... zardari is playing games with nawaz and nawaz is playing games with the lawyers; mushy is playing games with zardari and the army is playing him for a fool ...... none of these bast*#ds deserve to rule ..... and the pakis don't deserve a state of their own .........

.... maybe that is why negroponte is on his way .... it might not be a bad idea for general petreus to move into the army house (if he can get mushy to vacate it) ....... if that happens, my ancestral house will be in the green zone with baitullah mehsud lobbing mortars at me ...... it is a lost cause, to hell with third-world politics !..... it is time to have a drink and settle down to watch the wings beat the crap out of the penguins ....

#62 Posted by zeemax
"And, I further suspect you have scant respect for a constitution as well. I think you're a shallow person and not really loyal to Pakistan."

That is just childish and tells me you don't know squat abt the issues here.

A common person like me does not break the constitution. Common folks don't deal with the constitution on every day bases. The people who have the responsibility to adhere to the constitution are the state institutions like the parliament, the Judiciary, and the Army.

I can keep respecting the constitution but the army doesn't and flaunts it and amends it via unconstitutional means.

You got to read some political science and also read something abt what the constitution is. You must think it is some penal code that every chabriwala worries abt.

with ignorant defenders like you, the constitution has no prays!

Hp,
I agree. we are on the difficult 50% now.

#55 Posted by tahmed32

For the first time, the country is learning abt respecting the laws and the constitution. On Nov 3, majority of Judges in all courts did not resign. The majority in only the SC did and replacements were found fairly quickly from the lawyers community.

When the Judiciary itself does not respect the constitution, don't expect that the politicians and others would do it.

Imo, the part of respecting the constitution is better than just the CJ restoration. But since he was the reason the army shredded the constitution, he should be restored along with the constitution.

The longer this movement goes, the better it would be. Bring more people out on the street so that the army knows the people of Pakistan would defend the constitution.
That would ensure that the army respects the constitution in future.

Mushy is unimportant. It is the army you are fighting against. You are fighting an institution and not some nincompoop who lives in the army house. You need to understand the difference.

Otherwise it is like Bhains kay agay been...

Zee,
How is repeal of 58(2)b stop the army from another coup? Didn't mush ignore it in 1999?

zeemax: no need for personal insults. people can arrive at their own judgements based on what someone writes. and in HPs case, he demonstrates respect for Pakistani people's rights that is either explicitly rejected (in case of Hamidm and others who think Pakistanis are fit only to be slaves) or implicitly (which includes you when you call for mullah rule-by-the-gun in Pakistan).

#61 ijazgul: possible. or more likely it is pressure to back off from any deal-making with taliban (since mush himself made such deals too).

#58 Posted by HP,

Yaar HP Saeen I didn't miss your point that a constituition is just a book unless people abide by it. But I suspect you forgot who wrote the constitution in the first place if not the people.

What realpolitik are you talking about? All realpolitik will be swept away in an instant if constitution is not upheld.

And, I further suspect you have scant respect for a constitution as well. I think you're a shallow person and not really loyal to Pakistan.

What are you loyal to?

Most Likely. pressure on military. Mush is on the way to be ditched.
Most dangerous. Pressure on Military to back Mush.
Common. Zardari, a pawn.
You know the joke when the mirasi said to the lambardar. should I take it as a yes or no. Thats It.

#56 Posted by ijaz_gul

Actually Ijaz people have read this too. What is the linkage in your opinion?

ijazgul: instead of blanketing this board with lengthy cuts and pastes, why dont you simply state the point you are trying to make? what is your point?

Zee
You have gone off the deep end so hard you're going to be wandering in the wildness of irrelevancy for the next forty years.

I am not going to explain it to you that when no one respects the constitution, it becomes a book. This is one constitution that every tom, dick, and harry has amended at will to fit their view of the country.

If the CJ had respected it, he would have gone off the bench a long time ago. If Nawaz had respected it he would have not stayed with Zia until the end.

The only difference now is that the Lawyers are pressing for the respect. Before that they too were glad to take the positions in various courts under the army. The CJ was not upholding the constitution when he went against mushy.
He did not ask Mushy to resign. He looked at some cases to confront him.

His removal was an unconstitutional act. That is what the whole movement abt. Since his removal was politically motivate, he will be restored by political methods.

This is not abt taliban banging their way in to the caves. That same approach wouldn't do any good.
Now drink some cold water or perhaps aabe zamzam and get off the rocker!

zeemax: Let us pray that this brave man, the CJ, lives to see the rule of law restored in Pakistan.

Read this too and see the linkages.

APCs denied to Pakistan

ISLAMABAD: The American government is said to have stopped Germany to contract a multi-million dollar deal for the sale of 800 Armoured personnel carriers (APCs) to the Pakistan army, after getting annoyed with the recent moves of the new political government in Islamabad to strike peace deals with the Taliban in the tribal areas.

Earlier, the American state department which actually hold the license for the manufacturing and sale of these APCs, being prepared in Germany as a part of defence agreement, had granted the permission to the Germany authorities to provide these APCs to Pakistan. But, now all of sudden, it has reviewed its decision. The sources said, the only consideration behind this move was none other than the recent peace deals in the tribal areas of Pakistan, as the Americans were found to be annoyed with the new political government at Islamabad.

This recent move was actually being seen as an attempt to put pressure on the new leadership of the Pakistan army so that the peace deals should not be contracted with Taliban elements in the tribal and other parts of the NWFP.

Earlier, this deal was put on the hold because of the European Union concerns after President General Æ Pervez Musharraf had staged a mini coup on November 3, 2007 after he sacked the judges and suspended the basic human rights. These drastic steps against the political forces and the judges had greatly provoked the European union to slap sanctions on the supply of the military equipments to Pakistan.

But, sources said, now after the return of the new political government in Islamabad, the German government again gave indication to contract the supply of the APCs, but this time, it is said the Americans have stopped the Germany to supply the APC.

When contacted by The News, Brig Æ Samson Simon confirmed that there were certain EU sanction because of action taken on November 3. “All the military trading of the equipments have been put on hold including the deal for the 800 APC�, said Brig Simon who is the director of Eastern Management Services, a business partner of the German supplier Fahrzeugwerk Gmbh (FWW)—-confirmed. He, however, refused to make any comment that now this time the Americans were behind the sudden move to block the supply of these 800 modified APCs for their use in the tribal areas of Pakistan.

Earlier, sources said, the German army had abandoned using these APCs after upgrading their own war weapons after handing over those used weapons to the North bound official Armies and repair and overhaul workshops in the Northern of Germany. The Germany was ready to sell these second hand weapons to different countries after their upgradation including Pakistan. After initial negotiations, the Germans were ready to provide these modified weapons to the Pakistan army, so that it could fight in the tribal areas more effectively. Although, the Pakistan was also using its locally manufactured APCs in the tribal areas, but they were said to be not as effective as these German could be because of their standards and quality. These APCs were being sold at very cheap price, if compared to their actual prices of these items, so that Pakistan could effectively fight against the terrorists in the tribal areas of the country.

Earlier, in December 2007, the FWW had got obtained the export license from the Germany as well from the US state department was granted for Pakistan. But, all of sudden, the government of Pakistan was informed that because of the political situation in Pakistan arising out of the judicial crises, the firm was asked to postpone the release of APCs for the next two months. Before the suspension in the supply of these APCs, the Germans were offerings these weapons after repair and maintenance in the workshops of Germany. These APCs were to be modernize with engine, gearbox, braking and stearing system and suspension system and protection according to the requirements of the tribal areas.

But, sources said now the German firm has been told that it should not further negotiate the deal as the Americans who actually hold the licenses for the sale of the APCs were not ready for their immediate supply.

When contacted by The News, ISPR Major General Athar Abbas said, he did not have any idea about this proposed deal. He said, however, Pakistan was using the locally manufactured APCs in the tribal areas where the police and FC were given these machines to fight against the local fighters. He said he would check with the concerned officials and return the call to give the full version.

http://www.thenews.com.pk/print3.asp?id=14884

HP: the constitution may only be a piece of paper.

but the protections it provides to the citizen are something else - it is the constitution that ensures that the police cannot enter a house and "disappear" a father, a son, or anyone else. it is the constitution that ensures that a minister or president or MNA cannot enrich himself without fear of being checked by any organ of the government.

and the people of Pakistan have been educated on this by the civil society of Pakistan. Which, unlike those who seek to keep the Pakistani enslaved for one excuse or another ("Supreme National Interest", "Islamic State") , does not believe in a caste system of kshatriyas (military) or brahmins (mullahs) and the untouchables (Hamidm's "unwashed masses") who are fit only to be ruled.

well, no one can say pakistani politics isn't exciting or intriguing!

no wonder real holy people do not want anything to do with pakistani politics...

tahmed32,

You know it's quarter to 3 am, and people were lined up all the way from Bhera to Faisalabad.

I think Lawyers/Pml-N have decided to invoke Iftikhar Chaudhery, whom they had advised to lay low till 13 May.

But I fear for his security.

... and yes, since you say "No constitution or no repeal of 58(2)B can stop them", let this idiot try 58(2)B now. I tell you his own army will hang him by the neck.

#48 Posted by HP,

Otoh, Constitution is nothing more than a book;

Oh Ok I get it now. It's Saturday. Yar Maghrib ka tau intizaar kar liya hota? Constitution is nothing more than a book?

I take my remarks back. You're usually a good analyst till you lose the ability to think straight, which is actually quite frequent. Affects judgment, you know -)

and the crowds braved even the heavy rainfall that was taking place an hour ago!!

Pakistani people Zindabad!!
Hamidm and his lotas..well..er..um..whatever..

aaj tv is showing live the CJ march in faisalabad - no PPP flags or official participation anywhere, only PML. but aside from the missing PPP official presence, according to the newman, the crowds are if anything bigger than they used to be last year for the CJ.

this would indicate that Zardari for some reason really thinks that it was PPP, not the CJ, that was behind the uprising. and so assumed that without PPP, people would not come out in support of the CJ. and this theory has been proved wrong by the large turnout.

so, the lota-lovers and ghoonda-lovers on chowk can insult Pakistani people and their leaders, namely the civil society led by lawyers and the CJ, all they like: Pakistanis WILL have their freedom and Pakistanis WILL have the rule of law prevail in their nation!!

#38 Posted by zeemax

Zee,
“I'm very fast losing my respect for you as an analyst.�

You can lose respect for all I care. That is completely unimportant and irrelevant. What is important and relevant is that people need to learn the democratic process. That is what’s happening in Pakistan. Nawaz or Zardari, any one of the two can win the game or both could lose it.

“Have you read the distribution of power between the pillars of State in the 1973 constitution? What Nawaz did with the army chiefs and the CJ did with Suo Moto BOTH were within their rights. It's quite another thing if you agree with the original consensus 1973 constitution.�

I don’t know how much you know about the constitution but power games are played inside the constitution. The army was checkmated and they went above the constitution.

Otoh, Constitution is nothing more than a book; you need to develop enough tolerance to live by the book. Since no one in Pakistan has that tolerance at this point, the argument abt what was constitutional and what was not, just makes some good debating points. Other than that, every politician in Pakistan knows what the realities are. The reality is that the Pak army will not abide by the constitution until you have something that would force the army. And you have to go through a process to block them. No constitution or no repeal of 58(2)B can stop them

I hope the lawyers’ movement is successful and I also hope that they can force Zardari to side with them. That fight is good and I am all for it. I write from the realpolitik’s angles and not let my personal preferences pull a rug over my eyes. The situation is not ideal so what you think may not fit the reality.

#43 Posted by ijaz_gul

Re: Shaheen Sehbai’ s article.

Ijaz,
I read the article yesterday and enjoyed it immensely.

This Zardari song and dance would continue until one party (the army and Mush vs. the Lawyers and PMLn) pins him down.

He is clearly offering Musharaf’s head if Nawaz would drop the CJ. There is nothing wrong in it. Nawaz wants the Judges back to remove Musharaf, and if he gets Musharaf, Nawaz could think abt dumping the CJ.

I am lost as to why people are taking it personally. The CJ has already done his job and he can be accommodated somewhere else. What is important: inflicting a defeat on the army and Mush or just putting the Judges back for another round of fight?

At this time I think Musharaf is just a lame duck and Zardari has some assurances from the powers, to offer his head.

Zeemax,
u know my opinion. i dont trust him.
There is a nouvelle immorality justfying Pakistani politics.
All is fair in politics. its not the same in fully grown democracies.

Re: # 41

Voting is just one aspect of the democratic process which comes once if they are lucky every five years. People have very little to to do when it comes to granting of party tickets or selecting of party leaders which is an essential part of democracy. What happens post voting as we are witnessing right now has very little to do with the people.

#43 Posted by ijaz_gul,

Yes, but was Zardari guilty or not in those cases which are now all thrown out?

Why Zardari has now jumped on Musharraf

By Shaheen Sehbai

KARACHI: Asif Ali Zardari’s ultimate decision to finally come out of the closet and express his real views about General (retd) Pervez Musharraf, calling him a relic of the past, is nothing new and has been repeatedly expressed by him in private.

In my last session with him, with Dr Shahid Masood of Geo TV also present, about two weeks back in Islamabad, he had gone even one step further. “If they pressurise me too much, I would rather pack up the National Assembly, call fresh elections and let them deal with the president and the Army,� he had said.

By “they� he had clearly meant the forces agitating for the restoration of the deposed judges, including the PML-N and the lawyers. “I will see how much power they have to get the judges restored or remove Musharraf,� he had said in a challenging tone, broadly hinting that he may even go and live abroad with his family, which needs him desperately after Benazir Bhutto’s sudden demise.

That was before Zardari had decided to take on Musharraf head on, though the timing of his attack is extremely important and meaningful. Coming under fire from many sides, he has practically thwarted any criticism of his hitherto pro-Musharraf policies in the Central Executive Committee of the PPP, scheduled to meet on Saturday, as a starter. Many PPP stalwarts and quiet but annoyed leaders were sharpening their knives to go for him.

Secondly, he has attempted to control the damage caused by the fast deteriorating relations with Nawaz Sharif’s PML-N, to keep the coalition together and gear it up for the constitutional amendments that he intends to move, clipping Musharraf’s powers and restoring the judges.

But the most important reason according to my information is a lot of fear and apprehension that before his wings were clipped, Musharraf may launch a final commando type attack on the political system and try to pre-empt his ultimate transformation into a powerless and spineless Fazal Elahi Chaudhry.

One indication of this pre-emptive strike was given in an article in this newspaper by well-informed defence analyst Ikram Sehgal who wrote that Musharraf may be thinking of removing General Pervez Ashfaq Kayani and appointing his relative, ISI’s Nadeem Taj, as the next Chief of the Army Staff while he still had the power to do that.

When an official comment was sought on this sensitive issue from President Musharraf’s spokesman Rashid Qureshi, his standard answer to Ansar Abbasi of The News in Islamabad was: “I have no information and I have not even read Mr Ikram Sehgal’s article.�

Sehgal had called this info as “unsubstantiated rumours� and probably this is what it may be. According to my sources, clear messages have been sent to the presidency from the most relevant quarters that at this stage no disruption of the political process would be welcomed, though Musharraf may be itching to act against what he describes as total mismanagement of the economy and political turmoil after the elections.

The gist of these messages, some sources in the PPP say, have also been conveyed to Zardari and ever since his tone and tenor vis-à-vis Musharraf has changed.

Why Zardari picked up the Indian media to deliver this message is not clear but what is obvious is that he has been under tremendous pressure from within his party and the political spectrum outside to change the wishy-washy stance of the PPP concerning Pervez Musharraf and the judges as it was causing grave damage to the party and conversely consolidating Nawaz Sharif, who was looking like a seasoned and mature principled politician as compared to Zardari.

In the long run, this was not acceptable to the PPP leader. He was constantly absorbing the pressures even at the risk of becoming unpopular for a while because of obvious assurances and guarantees that Benazir Bhutto in the first place, and then he himself, may have given to the presidency, the Army and the Americans.

The smooth transition after the Feb 18 elections was also possible because both the sides were adhering to the secret understandings, especially Zardari, as he had to receive a lot more than he had to give in the short term.

The lingering threat of corruption and money laundering cases, both in and outside Pakistan, was another huge factor why Zardari was soft and accommodative for Musharraf.

All that may appear to have changed when the last and final corruption case against him was dropped or thrown out by the court hearing it. Now he is clean like any clean person could be and thus could go after anyone who challenges his authority.

But the real turning point came when Musharraf started to panic and sought tacit assurances from the powers that matter on whether they would stand by him or the political system. The answers that he got, again tacitly, was a big no, which meant that if the political system, through a proper and dignified way eliminated him, he would have to say goodbye.

That political system and the constitutional and political strategy of the PPP leader is to be tested in the coming weeks. With Musharraf fading out, he believes there would be no problem in mustering the two-thirds majority in both the houses but the key hurdle to cross would be Nawaz Sharif’s insistence that the deposed judges must be reinstated.

Zardari is almost sold out to the idea that if the sitting PCO judges cannot be retained after the restoration of the deposed ones, then all those who ever took oath on any PCO must be thrown out and a totally new judiciary be recruited, through a process of parliamentary scrutiny. This he calls the true spirit of the Charter of Democracy and says it will weed out all the unwanted judges, both who are liked or disliked by the PPP and the PML-N and give the judiciary a fresh start.

The only impediment in this very principled position is Mian Nawaz Sharif. But if, after taking on Musharraf and winning, Zardari insists, this may ultimately be the compromise solution which everyone may accept.

http://www.thenews.com.pk/print3.asp?id=14890

g'night

#37 Posted by rf786

... passing judgement on the poor masses who have hardly any say in the process.

This is another delusion which was destroyed back in 1970 and you still are immersed in it.

How did Ch Shujaat lose his seat in Gujrat if poor masses had hardly any say in the process?

HP writes "and why Nawaz dismissed one COAS after another? "

That was the military leading him towards a pre-planned martial law

correction in #35, read "want to coopt the anti-military sentiments of the military.." as

want to coopt the anti-military sentiments of the people

#24 Posted by HP,

HP, you're a fool! Have you read the distribution of power between the pillars of State in the 1973 constitution? What Nawaz did with the army chiefs and the CJ did with Suo Moto BOTH were within their rights. It's quite another thing if you agree with the original consensus 1973 constitution.

I'm very fast losing my respect for you as an analyst. You're just a drameybaaz dancing pony in mela muwaishyaan.

Re: # 11


Zeemax

(Tell me, what do you really think Pakistan is? Is it a weak country of weak people? Resourceless, consciousless place with no character?)

Not a fair question, how can we discuss politicians of pakistan by passing judgement on the poor masses who have hardly any say in the process. Coming back to your question, we have plenty of resources but still no understanding of how to share them. Water, port, gas, tax revenues these are issues which remain unresolved. Not a healthy diagnosis but to be fair, politicians cannot be blamed for this state of apathy.

As for the people or poor masses, divided ethnically and religiously with very little national spirit. Concept of nation state was lost somewhere between bangladesh and Islamization, having said that all this can be reversed with time and effort.

...as usual tahmed is clueless because he sees everything through the propaganda filters of the white man whom he worships unconditionally...

The author writes "The reason Zardari has given for taking this about turn to confront the presidency is reflective of the mood of society."

Not the mood of society rather the mood of the "powers that be" who like I said want to incorporate the political into the power equation of the country moreso than the past, an establishmentized political institution that works and cooperates with the miltary but is not ousted by it. Together with this about turn comes the announcement that the US would prefer the ISI to work under the civilian government! This thug is manipulating on behalf of the US/Pak Army, Musharraf is a nobody now without Army and US support and if he goes it will be because he has lost it and that day, it seems, is coming. All of these manipulations are for the prime reason of not restoring the judiciary because that would be a step towards REAL democracy of which the US/Pak Army are mortally afraid. These manipulations want to coopt the people's movement led by the lawyers, they want to coopt the other welcome side effect, i.e. the personal enmity between the NS and Musharraf that is leading to postitive results for the judiciary, and they want to coopt the anti-military sentiments of the military. Zardari is an Army peon through and through, he should be ignored and the protests should continue...His confidence in his declaration comes from assurances from the devil, the US elite themselves and he has military support- and as we know BB's "confidence in the devil" ended with disaster, so will his and in all these manipulations, the people of Pakistan will emerge victorious, inshallah...

#21 Posted by hamidm2

... zardari just decalared that he never accepted musharraf as a constitutional president but he wants to work with the president !!!

Ok ok I get it. You're frustrated. Ok Zardari is a characterless bastard. No surprises there. He's proved he is exactly what you say re Pakistanis. Great extrapolation hamidm!

The constittional package announced by Zardari:

1) CJ tenure reduced to three years. Meaning Iftikhar Chaudhary retires in June.

2) 58-2 (b) removed.

3) NWFP renamed as Pakhtunkhwa.

Bullshit! No one will accept this. PML-N has already rejected #3. They have their vote bank in Hazara and they don't want any stupid Pakhtunkhwa bullying. Afghania may have been a better idea. Pandering to Asfandyar is a bad idea. These people are Verkotey Angraiz - beyghairat. This same Asfandyar had made a famous speech in the coalition's banquet back in Feb after elections saying 'Beyghaiarat nahin baney gein" and then supported muttarraf.

#13 Posted by hamidm2,

Your posts are getting more and more odious with time.

Yaar, I can understand your murtid part, but why become an enemy of Pakistan?

Re: # 27


naqshbandi,

... i don't think it is just the pakis, but all moslems, respect a brutal strongman like omar ibn khattab, saddam hussein or hafiz asad ...... the problem with musharraf is that he is benign ....... i think zardari has potential - he has that evil look ......

#27 Posted by Naqshbandi on May 24, 2008 10:38:16 am


pakis respect a strongman


You have George Dubya Bush...The drones will keep you straight..

Re: # 13
The poor ex-Pakistani describes himself thus:

"do not have any character....stupid and ignorant....it is the lack of character that sets the....apart from the rest ..... unfortunately, this lack of character has become our national character and so nobody thinks it is a problem until they are personally affected by it ........"

Thanks, now live with that stagnant character while we work on improving ours.

Re: # 24

hp,

... so you are saying that the droopy eyed cj is just another untrustworty and power hungry paki without any principles ?........ and it wouldn't matter if his name was tahmed instead of chaudhary iftikhar ahmed or hamidm ...... that's what i have been saying all along - we can't be trusted ...

hamidm mian and others...
..i seriously sometimes think this democracy malarky might not suit pakistani tastes...a benign dictator would be best for our part of the world...like a hugo chavez or fidel castro...
pakis respect a strongman...or someone who at least appears as such...vaisay i am a proud paki myself so don't mind my use of the word 'paki'...of course if a non-paki --esp. and indian!--uses it all hell breaks loose but that's because we are basically indians with a chip on our shoulders...that chip coming from being rulers for so long it has become a genetic trait for some of us to act like we a nawabs even if we are beggars!
maghroor faqir haaN aseeN!

#1 Posted by zeemax on May 24, 2008 1:53:01 am


But you cannot fool all of the people all of the time


all pakis can fool themselves all the time

case in point: mushy telling pakis pakiland is ahead in space technology because pakiland rented a orbiting pile of junk..or pakis using nominal GDP numbers..

HP/Hamidm: Lets be clear: Hamidm wasnt bad mouthing political maneuvarings - rather it was the "Pakistani people". And I reminded him that we already have enough posters from India doing that, not to mention the arab/persian worshippers from Pakistan.

Politics is indeed the art of the possible. But does anyhone seriously think that it is not possible for the resurgent parliament to restore the CJ with a one-line order from the PM? Or that it is not possible to follow up on Zardari's words that Musharraf is an "illegal president" by then doing the logical thing and stop treating him like a legal president? Failing that, all this talk is mere bs, and fools no one.

hamid,
"but i still don't understand why zardari hates the droopy eyed cj so much ....."

I think I had discussed it somewhere else too. In the power circles when you say no, you are of no use. That's why mushy kicked the CJ out. But that No has made him a very popular man. That means he can say No again, if he gets another opportunity.

Reinstated with the same powers, he will control the government like he did when he was making jalebian around the poor Mush and frustrated him to no end.

I doubt that even Nawaz would accept him, if positions are switched and Nawaz takes over in place of Zardari.

No politician would allow another center of power. They fight with the existing ones. The history of Pakistan is replete with such incidences. Why BB was dismissed twice, and why Nawaz dismissed one COAS after another? They want power and fight for it. Comes naturally to the REAL politicians and not to some chaudries of Gujrat or any other Fajja mujja.

Re: # 22

hp,

... i agree with you, but i still don't understand why zardari hates the droopy eyed cj so much ..... the man is a twit and i wouldn't trust him as far as i can throw tahmed, but zardari seems to have 'forgiven' everyone else ..... he really must hate this little suo moto man !.... i don't buy the argument that he is afraid of the cj opening up the nro can of worms - i think it is something else .... what can it be?

Tahmed,
Hamidm is right. Ghairat has no place in politics. It is a personal trait and as archaic as the tribalism and Feudalism.
Politics is all about making compromises, and moving forward.
Please don't equate Ghairt with Honor. A politician can make honorable compromises but he will have to kill his adversaries if he relied on Ghairat to resolve political issues.

Zardari has no choice. He will come down to make some deals with the lawyers. He is dropping hints and making threats that is how it is done.

Now he is asking Musharaf to go but he is actually telling Nawaz and the Lawyers that he will get the president, if they would give him something to work with. He is baiting not only the Lawyers but the army too.
I hope we see a counter offer from Nawaz. And that is how the whole thing will proceed. As long as Lawyers and Nawaz can keep pressure up, they can get more.

The Judges issue is a political issue and will be resolved by politics and not by being pious or ghairatmand.
Off to breakfast...

Re: # 20

tahmed,

... there was a time when i used to feel offended if someone mistook me for an indian (god knows why anyone would do that ), but now i let it pass .... you don't realize how much it hurts me to be mistaken for a uncircumcised vegetarian but the alternative is even worse .....

..... by the way, you will be happy to know that zardari just decalared that he never accepted musharraf as a constitutional president but he wants to work with the president !!! .... now show me a nigerian who can top that and they are masters at crookery ......

hamidm: maybe you should get a nose job from michael jackson's plastic surgeon and get a proper lota spout instead of this low-class pakistani nose. and then get the skin whitened from michael jackson's dermatologist.

It wont improve your looks, but at least you wont feel like you are a pakistani anymore.

Re: # 18

oh shut up, tahmed! ...

you sienile old fool, it is not about musharraf or zardari or the droopy eyed judge or you - all of you are the same ........... spineless, characterless, self-serving, myopic, venal, corrupt and whiney creatures ! ......... if it weren't for the fact the i would have to pay 120 dollars for a paki visa i would tear up my nicop card ..... but a 120 bucks is a 120 bucks and being a paki i cannot do things just based on principle - as they say, "ghairat tey aanee jaanee cheez ay, banday non dheeth hona chaida !"

hamidm: and btw, we already have enough individuals berating the people of Pakistan - from india of course (given the psychiatric issues associated with being slaves for a thousand years to muslims with the added affects of the caste system and other twists provided by their "culture" or lack thereof), from arab worshippers like echoboom.

so, while your insults to the Pakistani people on behalf of Musharraf and his lotas are no doubt well-meant, but we really have enough people doing that for you alread on chowk.

so hamidm, what do you think happened? was there a lota in your shajra-e-nasab, or are you a post-natal lota? in other words, is the problem "genetic" as you believe, or is it due to "nurture".

and if post-natal, how exactly were the results achieved - was it a special kindergarten school to raise lotas, or was it the example provided by role models in your family?

Nikhat #9 When a man does not respect his own words (as in case of Musharraf and Zardari), there is no need to waste time listening to what they have to say.

Just hope that they will do the right thing because the people of Pakistan leave them no choice.

hamidm: "by and large the people of pakistan do not have any character and on top of that they are stupid and ignorant "

and you are certainly a good example.

Re: # 1 I wonder mr.Z is drawing wrong conclusions regarding electricity and food. Sure lawyers and activist may have sufficient of both but there is anguish in amoung nonlawyer hardworking people. People will be happy if he takes care of president ( dismisses him) but that will be pyratic victory. The basic problems still can demolish PPP or any party. Hope PPP does strategic way about food and electricity otherwise tactical moves against president can take them so far only. Hope he does not treat president badly as then his partners in Sindh MQM may not tolerate too long.
He took opportunity to give message to india which is most significan factor in life of pakistan for good or bad. It appears he is not interested in military confrontation on K and that is not good. No concession or control even partly to have say in occupied HK ( held kashmir) is coming forward from Indian side, so CBM measures are not worth. May be this central question of Kashmir will not be dewcided by talk it will be decided by steel and blood. But Z is doing fine as after taking care of president and then economic problems he will have to concentrate on army as army is getting weak due to reduction of its money and no new arm purchases are coming up except JF-17 from china , a joint coproduction. His post is not happy post as it is hard too many demands on him and he can not make everybody happy. He is having weak hand as economy is is dire state. Yester was black friday and even I feel pinch when you loose so much in equity markets in one day. People just stop buying shares. So instead of president removal helping KSE will be more helping people.
bUT HE HAS GOOD PLAN AND HAS DANGLED good things for India if they behave properly. He has assured Sindhi's of developing "thar coal fileds" ( Over Billion Tons deposits) as up to know gas and oil import lobbies had stopped development of these things. He was right in telling india he has enormous energy in Thar and he can supply energy to india and can reduce shortages in India and help to improve image of india in Muslim world and help them by providing iranian and turkmen gas from pars and Daulatabad fields. So his approach isd better to show india to come to reasonable deal on Kashmir so he can sell back to people here. About kashmir people have very strong feeling and people want to help liberation of kashmir short of nuclear war but if too long time it is not solved even nuclear option is possible and winable. Just now nobody want war at two fronts and that gives less resources devoted to kashmir. It is not econoimic question likeindian attitude of Baniyas its very emotional for awam and they are ready to any sacrifice it is problem of survival like original problem. It is not going any where with time.
Also this moody and S and P need to be warned by usa to have more reasonable evaluation ofeconomy as I have noted there are many american indian professionals working at strategic level who damage the creidt rating of pakistan. At least both agencies need to not allow indian ethinic / hindus and ask them to excuse them from their work as comflit of interest. Dr Shamsad is try best to shore up situation and has assured of coming of 3.5 billions soon from friendly countries to dampen dollars demand. With inflation reaching 17% officially state bank chioef has shown corouge to raise interest up by 150 basis points. Exceptional situation need exceptional treatment and hope KSE is back to normal as loss of awam in stock exchage is real and hurting.
THis president may go but problems will not go he is trying to help people but if people are ungrateful he will leave. But then mr. Z and NS will face real proble. Both are just making "president" problem so they can avoid facing real problems for which both has no guts to raise taxes and lead armed forces against India. Army is demoralised by stupid meaningless talk with india about Kashmir. Now how thesae both can inspire army man so he can go out of way and go to fight against india, we need some inspiring leader who will inspire soldier at bottom who will be ready to saCRIFICE HIMSELF FOR LIBERATION OF KASHMIR AND and solving this problem leading to permanant peace with India and keep source all major water. It is true what Mr. Jinnah said it is Juglar vain of economic life of pakistan.
Hope Z and NS stop childish games and go for real work. They will hopefully as I believe in miracles.
Good night.

Re: # 11

zeemax,

.... by and large the people of pakistan do not have any character and on top of that they are stupid and ignorant ....... people are stupid and ignorant everywhere, but it is the lack of character that sets the pakis (and nigerians) apart from the rest ..... unfortunately, this lack of character has become our national character and so nobody thinks it is a problem until they are personally affected by it ........

..... take the droopy eyed cj for example ... this joker was annointed by mushy and did his bidding until he thought it was safe to defy the faltering general ...... his defiance was not motivated by any high moral principle - he was driven by personal peeve, ambition and the fact that he felt he had nothing to loose and everything to gain ........ he did what any characterless paki would do .....

.... zardari is a wretch who is driven by the same unethical and base motives, but at least he is looking at the big picture and might end up doing some good for the long run (inadvertently) ......

..... i think the problem is genetic

Re: # 9 thanks for this funny info right out of the context but right now another big joker of our times Mr Zardari is briefing the press so gotta go cherrio!!!
Nikhat Riaz

#7 Posted by rf786,

You don't need to have confidence in any political set-up. It will evolve. You only need to have confidence in the will of the people.

Tell me, what do you really think Pakistan is? Is it a weak country of weak people? Resourceless, consciousless place with no character?

Think about it and let me know.

#8 Posted by Nikhat,

apne hisse ka diya to jalaein aur chappoo utha ker chala ker nayya paar lagaein

Exactly. And you're doing great at that! Just remember it needs a lot of diyas and chappoos - many diyas flickering out and many chappoos abandoned by tired arms and dropped in the river, before the nayya gets anywhere. And it takes many generations. Pakistan has has just had two.

Nikhat: "chappoo" used to be the nickname of a fellow in the school I went too. I think it was because of his big hands. Another fellow was "pullthroo" (from english name "pull through", which was a metal rod used to clean the barrel of a rifle). He was tall and thin.

Nothing to do with the topic, but just presenting the connections..

Re: # 6 yeah Zeemax u r right... Sometimes cynicism, depression, frustration rules but I am with u.....instead of complaining of darkness or rough weather... apne hisse ka diya to jalaein aur chappoo utha ker chala ker nayya paar lagaein
Nikhat Riaz

Re: # 6

AZeemax

Your optimism is commendable but lacks realism and more importantly evidence to support these hopes.

Pakistani political parties have yet to demonstrate the basic requisites of democracy which usually comes with democratic principles being applied at the party level. May it be PPP, PML-N (etc etc), ANP, MQM, JUI/JUP none of these parties have fostered democratic cultures in their respective parties. JI may have some semblance but that too is tainted by their stringent orthodox Sunni view of Islam which does not allow a open environment.

I agree with your basic premise, but have very little confidence in this political setup.

#5 Posted by Nikhat,

That's a very defeatist attitude, Nikhat. 60 years are nothing in the history of nations. I know Pakistanis are an impatient lot, but these ups and downs and upheavals are to be expected till any nation finds its direction. Pakistanis have just been struggling to find that out as to which one it is.

If you need to renew your faith in the Pakistani people, you just need to look back not too far at the earthquake.

The political scenario is not deplorable. This is the natural process of weeding out.

Re: # 4 "They will not next time around"
Next time???? and when will that be????????
with all current deplorable political scinario in our country I admire ur optimism and belief in our people.
Apna kaam to chalna hai so chale chalo berhe chalo abhee woh manzil naheen aaee.
Nikhat Riaz

... contd ...

Zardari was an unknown quantity, and that's why he was able to get away with betraying his own party in the wave of sympathy over Benazir's murder. People were willing to give him a chance. They will not next time around.

#2 Posted by Nikhat,

I don't agree Nikhat. The people have been fooled enough but no one can fool them anymore. The Feb election results are proof of that. And the next ones will be even further proof.

We must never underestimate people. May they be illiterate or whatever.

Re: # 1 Yes Zeemax but unfortunately it appears that majority of people of Pakistan can be fooled by the same people at major times........And majority rules in democracy!!!!
Nikhat Riaz

Naqvi Saheb,

Thanks for the article.

“We do not want bread, we do not want electricity, but we want him (Musharraf) out�

What else? Just a day earlier he had the very last case against him thrown out. Now it is time to say this.

Zardari has fooled everyone successfully so far, surprisingly besting musharraf at Machiavellian tactics as well.

However, the old adage holds "You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time. But you cannot fool all of the people all of the time"

Regards.