Dancing on Broken Glass

nazarhayatkhan#136:

"Every Pakistani has become a politician & people watch only the political talk shows which are more interesting than the dramas."

Exactly, my thinking, nazar saheb!

Tahmed sahib:

Democracy can never be handed in a silver platter, as is your case in point of India; or thru bombing, as is America’s case in Iraq. It is a process, as is case in point Iran, and historically in France. This process starts with grass root movements that cannot be imposed top down, as silver platter suggests.

Since Congress was started by the British and minority leaders (Parsis included), nothing stopped Muslims being part of this movement, at least in the early stages.

Democratic process brings democratic leaders out, and not the other way around. You are indeed correct that Pakistan had equal opportunity to establish democracy, and it did not. However, I would disagree when you point to Echboom and others. Pakistani democracy must be inclusive. After all Iranian leaders too are very religious and yet there is democracy.

Latest election in Pakistan has proven that at grass root level democracy is enshrined there. Institutions are needed to sustain it.

Founding fathers of post-independent India, including Nehru believed in democracy, but were very dictatorial in their approach to establish democratic institutions. You may not agree, but I see similar streaks in both Musharraff and Zardari.

However, defective Indian or Iranian democracies may be, they are grass root movements, and not delivered on silver platter. There were many historical events in the post-independent period when people predicted that Indian democracy will be over.

The phrase “last nail in the coffin on Indian democracy” was coined and so often used by London Times.

Until West Bengal slipped out of Congress hands in early / mid 60s, Congress was very manipulative to maintain its hegemony over Indian politics. Short lived, short Shastri really tried to bring democratic approach within Congress, that effort was over with his demise. Nehru’s shrewed Kamraj Plan had put him in power.

Due to diversity of India, and due to democracy, the center was not dominated by Hindi belt or one single region. Imposition of Hindi as has been mentioned in the constitution could have broken India, but democracy prevailed and Hindi was never imposed. There are many instances when democracy prevailed and kept India maturing. In recent elections in Karnataka, BJP has come to power on its own for the first time. It is no more than one of the news headlines. This change that politics is one of the things is an important sign of further maturity.

I do not believe democracy is delivered on silver platter. Signs are that democracy will prosper in Pakistan. Benazir Bhutto’s is just one of the sacrifices. Those who have been put in Pakistani jails by dictators too will disagree with you that democracy can be delivered on a sliver platter.

Sanatani,

The Indonesian mullahs do not seem to have any problem with democracy.Btw, all the Islamists I have seen on chowk are pro-democracy.

Regards

Re: # 133

Also see the mullahs calling everyone who wanted democracy as maghrebzade.

Even in India the mullah is the most retrogressive creature even more than the commie.

See their opposition to women's reservation in local govt. Then they have insisted and gotten away with forcing women to wear veils who are in Panchayats exp in UP, Maha, Haryana, Kerela.

They are also very proud of it thinking that they are doing the work of the peadophile murderer. The problem is the retardation in DNA caused by the bhonpu of the moon god ubbal and his message.

Sanatani

In all honesty..India is even more fked up!

Any country that can't solve the untouchable issue, should be under the UN watch! The democracy in that country will remain sham until they learn to treat people equally.

HP,

Corruption is omnipresent. Just because we share a few traits doesn't mean India and Pakistan can be lumped in the same plane.

You can always prefer to hallucinate.

HP sain,

The same police, the same judiciary, the same admin...corruption at every level

Sad, but true.

Regards

"Yes a lots needs to be done to overhaul laws and more importantly implement them impartially"

Basically, Indians have figured out how to make changes at the top smoothly. That is all there is to the Indian democracy.

Under the hood it is just another Pakistan. The same police, the same judiciary, the same admin...corruption at every level and the voters are there to just vote. They don't get any benefits. Can't put the roads up, can't bring water to people, can't provide reasonable education, can't provide reasonable health care and can't provide housing to millions of homeless.
Democracy is when benefits are shared, not equally of course, but the state does take some responsibilities.

Correction in 142

"were not made under Soviet influence"

HP sain,

(She turned around made changes in the constitution that were not representative. They were done on the Soviet's insistence.)

The Consitutional Amendments made during the 1970s were made under Soviet influence. They were the brainchild of her own Nehruvian way of thinking. By the way I dont think all the amendments have been bad or contrary to the original spirit of constitution except abolishment/curtailment of certain fundamental rights such as life and property.

(The current Indian democracy is a sham.)

Maybe. But you fail to appreciate one thing. It does give stability of sorts and also gives millions of people (who would otherwise be subscirbers of one millenialist ideology or the other) a sense of participation

( They still follow laws from the British days. )

Yes a lots needs to be done to overhaul laws and more importantly implement them impartially

Regards

Why Democracy in India & not in Pakistan?

There are so many factors to it that one can't put them here in one post.
1.The Muslim History in India is the starting point.
2. The Khlifat Movement which started some political awakening in Inidan muslims was turned in to a religious movement by the Congress and the British supported leaders, the two Two British agents the ali brothers.
3. The Muslim League barely had a ten years history in the political limelight and never got a chance to get another set of leaders.

For India a long political struggle did help but if someone wants to know why India is a democracy now, they should read how Nehru made sure that the Indian army is kept behind.
Still, Indra with one stroke of pen, successfully destroyed the cherished democracy. She gutted the Constitution and there was no law in India to challenge her or even after she was booted out, no one was able to punish her or the Congress.
She turned around made changes in the constitution that were not representative. They were done on the Soviet's insistence.

The current Indian democracy is a sham. They still follow laws from the British days.
The whole comparison sht is bogus.

Leadenwinter's response to my post shows quite clearly that I have f'cd up these ISI types on this forum and lit their tails on fire.....I don't get any monetary compensation for making these posts, all I get is baseless ridicule, the greatest payback of these is to see these thugs like Leadenwinter cringe and scream because they are stumped by my arguments. The fool talks about 5 murders and moneylaundering while supporting the military that has murdered thousands while looting from this country more than all the politicians put together, thereby controlling a substantial portion of the economy of this country and capturing its political institution- all illegitimately...

Army apologist (Musharraf Jr) Leadenwinter writes "Masadi, Chowk's favourite career lota...your agenda is transparent... you are for lack of a better description an old prostitute, hoping perhaps to make as much pro-establishment noise as possible in the hope that somebody hears you, with an end to some extremely petty capitalisation. Pakistan, sadly is rife with rabble of the likes of you. I sincerely recommend that you gracefully commit suicide, and do us all a favour. "


As expected these fools cannot come up with a single argument to counter what I wrote. They want to keep the nation busy with personalities while defending the biggest thugs this nation has seen who by infiltrating the entire social strucutre of this nation make the $18 million he talks about look like pittling change. He only has baseless ad hominem against me, accusing me of supporting Zardari when I have come down the hardest on him for hobnobbing with the military. He on the other hand dislikes Zardari because being a politically immature fool and not understanding army manipulations he thinks Zardari is genuine in his attacks on Musharraf whom he worships, yet who is the biggest criminal this nation has seen (Yahya included) given what he has done to hundreds of millions in this nation. There are millions like myself in this nation because this nation is waking up to challenging the establishment and the few thugs like Leadenwinter who still support army over lordship will soon be FORCED to do what he recommends I do, i.e. commit suicide....

NHK sahib,

The current politicisation of the Pak masses bodes well for the future of democracy in Pakistan.

Regards

Ahmed madani sahib,

When did MAJ (pbuh) say that Pakistanis are not fit to rule themselves?

People dont want a bloody revolution. They only want the current Prez, who is an usurper, to be removed through constitutional means.

Regards

Dost, Tehmed 32, Majumdar & ....

Why Democracy in India & not in Pakistan?

One school of thought, to which I subscribe, is that Pakistan was created by the Jagirdars, Nawabs, rich class. They wanted to seek refuge in a separate country so as not to get crushed under the weight of Birlas & Tatas.

Subsequently, they retained a foothold in power by getting the influence votes from their voters & not permitting the general populace get out of their clutches.

Army was next to jump in & it simply considered democracy a stupid idea.

Meanwhile, the masses were kept in sufficient chaos by slogan mongering such as ``Two Nation Theory'', ``Islam'', ``The enemy India'', ``Kashmir - honour issue'', ``Secularism - anti-Islam'' etc etc.

Finally, the electronic media of 50 channels has begun to let some secrets out of the bag for the mainly illetrate nation. Old taboos & belief system has begun to fall one by one.

Every Pakistani has become a politician & people watch only the political talk shows which are more interesting than the dramas.

Things look better.

NHK