Were Buddhists and Jains Persecuted in Ancient India?

dm ji, ranjit had an post on unplugged in which he unfairly called Hindus like you hypocrites :(

I thinh, it is not hypocrisy but traditional Hindu ignorance and logical flaws within Hindu worldview that keeps Hindus on their path.

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My views are as they are precisely because I have met with, lived with, and been friends with a LOT of Muslims, of all backgrounds. I have learnt to respect a way thinking quite different from the Hindu way of thinking.

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What is a cultural/political/sociological Muslim?

dm ji, of course, murad is telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Unless he declares himself a sufi or an admirer of sufism, we can't even begin to doubt his integrity.

His worldview is determined at the cognitive and emotional levels itself. THAT is the reason why your or any other Hindu's trying to 'discuss' anything with him is even less useful than banging your sore head against an unfriendly wall.

To be fair, traditional Hindus are absolutely no better in appreciating why Murad MUST believe what he believes and see history as he sees it. They keep thinking Murad will 'get it' only if they explain enough.

There is a complete and mutual lack of respect. :(


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nasah ji, it has always been. On the other hand one must appreciate that Muslims believe not only Saudi Arabia and Turkey and Persia to be their lands, but everywhere they can own a house to become 'their' land.

elavya#247:

"Without faith, it would be it would be irrational (and much worse) to call oneself a 'Muslim.'"

This is an untenable statement. You refuse to accept any category of cultural muslims. You have defined Muslims in a certain way and solved the inconvenient problem of dealing with the likes of hamidm, nasah, akcheema and many, many others by classifying them as non-muslims regardless of what they think of themselves.

In recent past, much of the promotion of "muslim" culture has, in fact, a contribution of poets and writers from the progressive movement who can only be described as cultural muslims. They are the ones who have made khuda hafiz, mashallah, salaam and many such terms part of the everyday vocabulary of Indians.

Take my friend, nasah, here (I hope you wont mind my using as an example, bhaijaan!). He loves a bhajan by Pt. Bheemsen Joshi as much as I love a naat by Saabri Brothers. I don't think that he offers namaaz any more than I do pooja every morning. Both of us love ghazals and Urdu poetry. Both of us wouldn't mind some mitthayee on diwali or some sawaaiyaan at eid.

This kind of statement would be normal from a Pakistani but seems strange from an Indian, especially one who is familiar with the Lakhavi culture.

pinku#216:

By all accounts, Mr. Baig has read and studied Indian history more than most of us here, certainly more than me. So, for all I know, he may be telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

However, I find it fascinating that the anti-Indian English historians and the Orientalists,when they dug into Indian history, found generally evidence of greatness. When Marxists/Muslims (isn't interesting that Muslim intellectuals in dar-ul-harb make alliances with Marxists and in dar-ul-islam with the Maulanas, except for the brief period of Nasser-led Arab nationalism?), on the other hand, dig into the same history, they find nothing but dirt?

Coincidence?

Re: # 232
"ALL religions also carry a huge GARBAGE of social customs, myths, rituals,"

You may in your ivory tower theorise muse and pontificate but in reality the man on the street puts these GBARBAGE on your table and as majority forces you to eat it.

This forum now needs Hamidm2 to butt in to show the difference between the cultural Muslims and the uncultural Muslims to the cultural Hindus as well as to the uncultural Hindus coming from a 'Hindu country'.

"Murad exists in a Hindu country," -- what an existentialist sentence!

Eklavya -- since when India became a 'Hindu country'?

Re: # 237

Murad -- now you are talking like an ascetic Muslim -- you want to takes away whatever little fun the man-made religions have in holidays/holydays -- like Eid, Shabrat/shabebarat Ramadan/Ramzan, Christmas, Easter, Yome Kippur, Shivratri etc etc?

why do you call them 'baggage'? -- they certainly are not garbage.

Cheema bhai, there can be NO "dialogue and discussions" so long as one stays a Hindu and a Muslim - two contradictory doctrines.

One cannot talk "to" each other, but one can try to understand by 'reading' and 'listening to' what the other says (to oneself or among amongs).

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Do you think there is even the foggiest chance in hell of Murad 'discussing' anything with Hindus? None.

He has said his piece. Hindus will keep screeming theirs.

It is a dialogue of the deaf - because those sides remain Muslims and Hindus.

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Again, it is utterly futile for Hindus to try to engage Murad in any discussions. Murad exists in a Hindu country, among Hindus. So he has to be understood by Hindus, not talked to (and vice versa for Hindus in Muslim countries).

Sorry for saying it as it is - hope you are mature enough to see none of this is said with malice - it is meant to state facts as they are. Best regards.

Re: # 245; Eklavya
"Until then, you and I are stuck with each other. Might as well try to understand a few things."

I do apologise for my short-sightedness but I am certain I did see you write something against this whole idea of "dialogue and discussions" as it were.

It can be one or the other...and not both, sadly.

Kindest regards.

Zee, I agree with sgb - that the 'only and sufficient' reason to be a Muslim is to believe that the Quran, as it exists today, if the last and final word from Allah, and one wishes to follow Allah.

Zee, hope you won't mind my saying this, but if one does not believe in the Quran, as it is, as last and the final word of Allah, and one does not wish to follow Allah, then one can be NO FRIEND of anything good by calling himself or herself a Muslim.

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You know, I find Islam completely rational and wholely self-explanatory IF its basics are taken on faith. I would be honored to be counted a Muslim IF I had such faith.

Without faith, it would be it would be irrational (and much worse) to call oneself a 'Muslim.'

There is a reason why echodada does not like me. He knows I appreciate and admire Islam, without calling myself a Muslim, and that makes him (just like all Hindus) suspect "evil intentions" on my part.

But that is a discussion for another time and place. Here we are fascinated by the other kind of people - people who do not believe in the Quran but call themselves Muslim.

Are these just political people who wish to belong to the Islamic community without having any faith?

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Cheema ji, believe me - as a nonbeliever - I would have no interest in Islam whatsoever if you Muslims were not living among the rest of us, and vice versa. Thank you.

Until then, you and I are stuck with each other. Might as well try to understand a few things.

Re: # 241; Eklavya,
"My views: I am not a Muslim. I don't believe in any of these things, nor in anything else "divine" - in the sense Muslims like Murad use the term."

Thanks for the clarification; if you are not a Muslim and/or were not brought up in Muslim culture etc...please stick to your own and stop speculating about other people's beliefs, practices and cultures as best you can.

If you are curious or have issues with a specific point and the author is not forthcoming with that piece of information, then perhaps he is as ignorant as the rest of us. Best to look at other sources under those circumstances and get an independent perspective.

I find your views divisive, although your intentions may not be so. I know Zeemax is far too broad-minded to have seen that in what you represent; the rest of us humble mortals are not so clever and accommodative, unfortunately.

Perhaps we can blame all this paranoia on the narrow-minded vision Muslims are brought up with.

Before you declare me a non-muslim again, that is your prerogative; I can't stop you from doing so. However, having been born and brought up within the Muslim culture (a characteristic alien to your good self), I'd still continue to claim greater ownership of the "Muslim-ness" and the people within its fold than others not having such advantage.

On the other hand, if you are convinced that Islam is the way, and your intrigue is purely genuine and sincere, then you should caste away all pretences and declare the "Shahada" on Zeemax's hand; none would be more pleased than I on such auspiscious occasion.

I wish you the very best in your quest for knowledge of this great faith, and the cultures inspired by it.

Regards.

Akram Cheema

akcheema Ji,

Who was the man that wrote the Qura'an? LoL ... I would like to know. Was it some poet or a scribe? Wow, that must have heve been some guy with a way with words. Is their any existing theory about that?

One common theory I know is that Muhammad made it all up and dictated it to scribes who wrote it down. But then, Muhammad was illiterate and not a poet or anything, just a humble merchant. But still, even if he did, why were any other versions destroyed by Usman which were considered to have NOT come from Muhammad word by word? Why go to the trouble?

Or maybe Usman wrote Qura'an and destroyed all previous ones ... hmmm

C'mon, give me a choice. I listed all the possible answers!

Eklavya

sgb asked you a question in #231. Can you answer her please? Sadia probably thinks you're a Muslim so it's not only Hindus you deceive (apart from me) ... you Muslim Jihadi Terrorist You !!!

Cheema ji, those burnt Qurans that existed prior to the current Quran - those compiled by equally pious and good men - had to be very different than the current Quran. So different that no compromise was possible with their errors (or the current Quran's errors, if the current one is man-made).

Not only had those earlier Quran's written by pious and good people to be destroyed, but anyone who remembered or spoke of them ever again had to be destroyed as well.

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My views: I am not a Muslim. I don't believe in any of these things, nor in anything else "divine" - in the sense Muslims like Murad use the term.

Re: # 239; c'mmon Eklavya

I am interested in YOUR views on the subject raised by YOU; let's have it already.......so whatever happened to all those burnt alternative Qurans?

Also, what is your theory/views on the authenticity of the "current" widely accepted copy of the Holy Book?