Were Buddhists and Jains Persecuted in Ancient India?

Re: # 308

Pinku yours is an interesting interact for one who is concerned about truth and evidence.

Then you should know that there is no concrete evidence about Panini could date to 5000 BC. At this time there were not even any cereals like wheat and barley in India (there was no rice in the harrappan settlements) let alone scripts and literature. Panini speaks about the Greeks that were very much later. Historians put his dates between 150 to 520 BC.

The earliest fragments of the Rigveda date to the 14th century AD but there had been many earlier written and oral accounts. Most respected historians date the Rigveda to between 1400 to 1900 BC. The internal evidence suggests that the Zend Avesta was some three hundred years older but the evidence is rather thin.

Moksha, Nirvana as well as Karma and Dharma were Buddhist and Jain traditions not found in the Rigveda. As the four vedas evolved they added Brahmanas, Ariyankas and Upanishads to each one. So Brahmin (not Hindu) texts incorporated their ideas into a new Vedic philosophy.

All religions borrowed from each other without exception.

#307 Posted by tahir,

??? Huh? All types of laws are not meant to be obeyed by Muslims. That's all I meant.

But I may have misread your post ... hmmm

Re: # 314

Laddu,

There are other distinguishing/unifying factors that more or less negate any religious misgivings. Race, Class and Caste (Many Muslims and Christians still prefer to marry within their caste) can also be considered equally unifying/distinguishing factors.

A dravidian Muslim, proly, would have prolesyted under duress or a change in conviction. It is the fault of the unconverted Hindu's ancestors for not having protected or convinced not to convert. It doesn't amount to fair retribution to kill a Muslim who is no different from the rest of the population in South India.

[Were Buddhists and Jains Persecuted in Ancient India?]
Possibly. Did Pakistanis kill off all their minorities? Certainly.

Nkg. 252

Pl grow up and don't spout things that you do not know about. Things in the past were very different to what most people immagine today.

Till the 18th century India was a Muslim ruled country and, with the exception of a few highly respected Rajput Emirs, the word Hindu did not mean a religion but `NATIVE'. The word generally meant farmers, shopkeepers, clerks and some artisans.

These Hindus worshipped hundreds of different deities and knew very little about their great past culture. They were mostly unaware of even the Vedas that were in the secret libraries of a few Brahmin scholars. The Rigveda was only discovered in 1757 by the French Jesuit Courdeveaux. Only now did Europe discover Sanskrit and its links with Greek and Latin. The knowledge about the lofty Upanishads is chiefly owed to Aurangzeb's brother Dara Shikoh whose scholars translated 119 of them into Persian. These were later translated into French, German and English before being known to most Indians.

Things were very different in the past in every society. They ALL had many wonderful people and glorious moments and many that were terrible.

South India was looted and marauded by Mohammad Goouri and his other momeen goons.
The temple of Cheluva narayan swamy was completely damaged by these momeen goons. I went recently to that temple at Melukote and found that the idols of our gods still stand disfigured inside as well on the exterior.
It msde my blood boil and my heart bleed.
The story is that Ramanujacharya in his own personal capacity went to the momeen badshah at Delhi and salvages the Chala moorti of Rama-priya that was being kept by the daughter of the momeen badshah in her room.
Such defiling and desecration of our temples was done by many more such momeen goons in the south india.
It is pity that hindus forgive and forget so easily!!

akcheema,

Unfortunately, jihadis like Tahir can’t sustain an intelligent dialogue … and quickly become abusive. And chakar-baaz Eklavya continues to cheer them to their final suicide missions. This in itself wouldn’t be such a bad idea … but if only these missions were carried out when no one is around and at least 800 feet from where I park my car.

(Zee mian, nothing personal. It’s just that I’d hate to have to wipe blood stains from the windshield. I hope you’ll consider …)

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Kaal, you are working too hard here. Ummah has nowhere to go but down; all you need to do is to step out of their way. Really, it is that simple! And this devisive communal politics is not worth pursuing. It makes you look more pathetic than Urstruly … which I didn’t think was possible.

Believe me, life has a lot to offer if you only get out of this silly shell of yours …

Re: # 310

furher to that, I'd openly challenge the poster of #307 to debate an issue, any issue, without using any of the "methods" mentioned in # 310.

I can bet my bottom dollar that he can't!

Ref Golti #295

[Re: # 294

"Dalit conversion (to christianity) is very high in southern states "

Nkg, Why do you think the conversions happen?]

Cos the South has its share of idiots.... like you.

This is an encore of a previous post....it was particularly enjoyed by "Regard" and after post # 307 here, quite appropriate to repost....since majority (if not all) of the qualities/(?)arguments have been used by the poster (#307) in question.

Now if the poster of # 307 denies this 'allegation' of being devoid of any intelligence, he should present an educated counter-argument, or stop wagging his tail and shut up. I can tolerate any non-sense but my prejudices start to show when confronted with sheer stupidity, lack of intelligence and ...well... basically complete "wally-brain-ness"!

Enjoy!!


[Dear brothers and sisters in islam:

We live in kuffar country and daily we have to face the infidels who criticize islam and our prophet, and who want to debate us. In an Islamic country if some one did that all we have to do is to announce loudly what he said and the rest is taken care of by an angry mob. The critic is lynched in no time. End of the story. However here we don't have that luxury as yet. Inshallah in forseeble future after we grow by conversions of morons and criminals in prisons, legal and illegal immigration and procreation we will, inshallah, become a majority and will not have to face this problem on daily basis. However, for the time being following is an approach all muslim brothers and sisters can use when faced with such a pest. Jazakallah Khair. Inshallah the vermin will steer clear of you in future.

1. A popular question is "why islam calls for death of Islamic critics and apostates". Insist that their info is false. Quote aya "to you your religion and to me my religion".

2. To answer "Islam spread with sword", say that it is a big lie spread by the jews and hindus and that quran clearly says " there is no compulsion in religion".

3. If some one quotes violent ayas from Koran, accuse him of quoting ayas in bits and pieces and cherry picking .

4. If he then quotes full ayas and ayas before and after, than insist that the translation is wrong.

5. If he brings ten different translations than say correct meanings can be understood only by reading Quran in Arabic.

6. If he happens to be well versed in Arabic language than insist that those ayas don't mean what they appear to mean as they have allegorical meanings.

7. If he is adamant, than say you cannot understand those ayas and it's context without reading hadith and sira.

8.. If he shows up with the hadiths and siras in hand and quotes the context of the violent ayas by referring to hadiths of prophet's rapes, robberies , assassinations and genocides then insist that "all hadiths and siras are heresay and are false, and only truth is in quran.

9. If he says Quran is a man made document and wants proof of it's divinity then refer to the sciences in Quran and the book written by Dr. Bucaile confirming the sciences in our holy book. You can also quote that Mahatama Gandhi read Quran daily and also spoke highly of it.

10. If he says that Bucaile was on Saudi payroll and that nor he nor Gandhi ever changed their religions and that Bucaile was challenged and proven wrong by many experts then challenge him to ask his experts to debate islamists like Zakir Naik....or worse Mohammed Asad!

11. If the pests still hangs around then change the topic and find faults in other religions and their books.

12. If he continues on then use personal attacks and insult him by calling him a jewish a- hole , a Chinese pig or a hindu dog .

13. If that does not frustrate him, then ask him how much he is being paid by jews to throw dirt on Al Islam.

14. If he still does not stop then run for his mother and sister and use very filthy language.

15. If he is very stubborn and wants to continue, then curse him like "Burn in hell, you will repent on last day, Allah will get you in your grave" etc

16. When all of the above has failed, threaten him with bodily harm and end the debate by drum beating and announcing that you won the debate hands down because Koran is the word of allah.

17. If possible anounce about this debate in an islamist website and that you had won it handily. Such announcements do wonders for the iman of muslim website readers and for dawah operations in prisons to convince low IQ prisoners of the truth of Al Islam.]

Ref Golti #291

[Nkg,

Is it because of relatively unchallenged Hinduism in South India, we, read South Indians, are so nonchalant about other religions gobbling us?]

No.

It is because for the last 70 years your heroes Periyar, Annadorai and Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion have been saying Hinduism is bad but don't have one thing to say about Islam and Christianity. They used to take out images of Ganesh and Rama garlanded with sandals but wouldn't dare do the same with an image of Mary or Jesus.

If you are a True Follower of Dravidian Thought, you should give up Hinduism, submit yourself to a painful surgical procedure and become a Muslim.

Or, you can become a Christian and continue the habits of maintaining a separate place of worship for Dalit Christians while they are alive and a separate cemetery for them after they are dead.

By the way, have you noticed that while Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion has been steadily improving his family's bloodlines by marrying outside his Devadasi clan, not one member of his family has married a Christian or a Muslim? That ought to tell you what exactly he thinks of them, no matter what his public posturings are.

Yup, Muslims are the niggers of India. Even in the eyes of the self-styled Social Reformers.

replying to #225
muradbaig,
When you give your statements like "modern sanskrit was quite different ..", do let us know your idea of what you mean by modern and ancient sanskrit. You are more or less avoiding what I am asking. When do you think RigVeda was written? Is it in modern sanskrit or ancient sanskrit as per you. Rigveda's date is supposed to be 1500BC.

Another question whatever Grammar Panini wrote, was that for modern sanskrit or ancient sanskrit. It happend in 500BC.

Third question approcimately in which time (give me BC time), the lanaguage of Old Persian of the Zend Avesta and Sanskrit were same. And what do you know was same in them.

Aghain, I am reiterating it, it is misleading to make the sort of statements you are making about either sanskrit or hinduism. Indo Iranina language have similar ancestor long time back, may be around 3000BC, but it is misleading to suggest people that they were same. If I apply naive logic of yours then Latin, Persian, Greek, Sanskrit all were same, we just don't know when they were same (all of them are indo iranina languages and share some roots for some words). This logic can also be used to make an almost foolish statement that all languages were same when there was not known language (though who knows what that time was?).

For hinduism:
What was the fusion and of which faiths that happened in 7AD?? Budhdhims and Jainism arrived by 500BC, so was it with them or what else arrived in India in 7AD. The most profound ideas of Moksha/Nirvana (which is there only in dharmic religions) and nature as infinite God, other things said in earlier Upanishads (before 550 BC) were adiopted by Buddhism and were originally part of hinduism. Whatever else happened between budhdhism and hinduism was much earlier than 1AD. The Maurya empire which was originally a hindu empire, converted to budhdhism in times of Ashoka, much before 300 BC.

You may again be misleading people with words like "fusion of different faiths" for "revival of hinduism". Revival of hinduism in Adi Shankara's time was not fusion of faiths. He used and referred to same old Upanishads of hinduism to make people realize what hinduism is?

So hinduism as I originally said didn't start in 7 AD, it was n't fused from other faiths in 7AD either. This you can infer from very simple points that i have given in my different posts so far. Either the mantras of Brahmins, or the most profound thoughts of Upanishads, or the Sanskrit language. If that is not sufficient for you, then probably it is your choice and you can think whatever you wnat to think.

Also I am not that much interested in how history got constructed and then reconstructed, I am interested which version of history is more truthful and what are evidences.

thanks.

Re: # 292
Headlines: Zee takes on Chee!

"Being a good and law-abiding citizen may make one a boyscout but never a Muslim."

Who cried the 'adhaan' in this thing's ear at birth?

… so were are back to Mirzaees! Apparently they are giving the ummah too much grief …

And ummah's finest are at it again; arguing that everyone can be a Muslim … except an Ahmadi … who actually believes in Allah, Quran, and Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Go figure!

+++

zee (#292): �Believing in SOMETHING transcending mere human capability and/or potential is a must.�

This is one convoluted statement. What are you suggesting here? An omnipotent God or flying prophets? Try to avoid making loose statements.

Re #296: And what is it that Ahamdis are denying? I hope you are not hung up on flying prophets here!

+++

Kaal (#299), your rhetoric lacks validation and your reasoning is flawed. Other than that you may have a point! (grin)

#297 Posted by akcheema,

I see you're stuck on this point. If Qadianis were to declare themselves a separate religion from Islam, I would include them in the list. However, if Jews start claiming they are the real Islam, I would exclude them.

Ok now Sir? I can't explain it better than that.

Related to similarities...

It is like, my pet dog eats biscuit, milk and sleep on sofa, so is my young son. So, my pet dog is similar to my son. Moslems in India are like domesticated dog (not fully), who partially behaves like Indians.

And you nkg are a turd