Another Lal Masjid in the Making?

Kindly read

http://www.kashifhafeez.com/mazameen_large.php?path=2008-07-10&img=k h_articles/large/2008-07-10.gif

'In the heartland of Punjab and Sindh, no one says a negative word about India'

June 12, 2008

Your thoughts on the India-Pakistan dynamics.
It is in the interest of the armed forces to continue to raise the bogey of an Indian threat to exploit the whole country. So, from 1954 they have dissolved the constitution, they have raped the country, they have created wars with India that nobody wanted. It is an open secret that what General Ayub Khan did in 1965 is exactly what Pervez Musharraf did in Kargil. There's no evidence of India ever attacking Pakistan. The people of Pakistan are quite aware of this.

The fact is that the army can only keep control over a large share of Pakistan's budget if it can continue to say that it is India that has its eyes on Pakistan and it will finish it off. That fear of India has been hammered to such a degree that it (the bogey of India) has been able to survive.

I believe the people of Pakistan are smart enough, and they have realised that their future is in friendship with India rather than Iran or Saudi Arabia. They have lived in these two countries. Indians and Pakistanis are treated in a shallow manner there.

When a Pakistani is visiting India, people won't let you pay for your meal. The same is true when an Indian is visiting Pakistan. Canadian Sikhs are going to Pakistan to visit Nankana Sahib. They come back and say that they couldn't believe it felt like home. In the heartland of Punjab and Sindh, you will not find anyone to say a negative word about India.

In India you might find people who are less aware of Pakistan but in Pakistan everybody knows that their brothers and sisters are Sikhs and Hindus who are on the other side of the border.

In my book I have stated my ancestors are Hindus. We migrated from Rajasthan to Punjab after a famine in early 1800 and we converted to Islam and our family settled there.

Despite different religion, people of Pakistan are smart and resilient. Sixty to 70 per cent of Pakistanis are Punjabis. So, as long as in Lahore and West Punjab there's goodwill towards India, the army cannot continue to create this myth that India is going to attack Pakistan.

Do you think one day Pakistan and India will be like the European Union?

Absolutely. I am 100 per cent sure it will happen because of goodwill. It will happen because of the laws of nature, because we are one people. We have common cuisine, common culture, common language, common clothes, common sense of humour, common geography, common weather -- except, some believe in Bhagwan, some believe in Khuda, some believe in Namokar Mantra, and some don't believe in anything.

There's no greater place on this earth to live as a human being than the subcontinent. India as a subcontinent is a marvel of god's creation. There should never be a communal clash because so much of Islam and Hinduism have been together. We need to bring Kabir's Bhakti movement back, which the British crushed in such a crafty manner that we were left paralysed.

'Trying to make Pakistan into an Arab country is never going to work'

June 12, 2008

If Muslims can live in peace and harmony in India, why can't they live in peace and harmony in Pakistan, a country supposedly created for them?
The movement for Pakistan was never by the people that comprise Pakistan today. The movement for Pakistan was essentially by upper class Muslims of Uttar Pradesh, Bihar and Madhya Pradesh.

Right up to 1946, Balochistan and Sindh were not voting for the Muslim League. They were voting for the (Indian National) Congress party. Balochistan was an independent state and they declared their independence three days before India's Independence. The coalition government headed by Huseyn Shaheed Suhrawardy in Bengal was the result of Direct Action Day of August 16, 1945, which led to the massacre -- actually genocide -- of Hindus in Noakhali (now in Bangladesh). It happened when in fact Muslims and Hindus there lived happily for hundreds of years.

Why would a Muslim find living in Pakistan problematic?

Because the idea that some sort of an Islamic state has to be created can never function. It will result in failure when you set impossible targets from the first day. That is the problem. Pakistan as a secular country, like (Mohammad Ali) Jinnah said in his opening speech, never functioned. It resulted in the cleansing of all Hindus and Sikhs from Punjab.

Punjab is primarily 60 to 70 per cent of Pakistan. It was left completely wounded and destroyed. It is only now West Punjab is reconciling with its close links with East Punjab and Uttar Pradesh. It was a living organism that was cut into two.

India was so large that it managed to take those wounds but Pakistan, being comparatively a smaller country, its heritage was linked with northern India. You are trying to make Pakistan into an Arab country. It is never going to work.

Image: An Indian bus driver is embraced by a Pakistani after arriving at the Wagah border

'Saudi Arabia, sadly, is a racist State'

June 12, 2008

Some people say the Islamic world is divided into the privileged class of Saudis and ayatollahs and the 'second class' of ordinary Muslims.
It is more than that. The Saudi Muslim does consider a non-Arab Muslim as inferior. Saudi Arabia, sadly, is a racist State. It has salaries based on the colour of your skin, where an Indian Muslim is discriminated more than an Indian Hindu because a Hindu doesn't pray five times a day but a Muslim does.

It is purely commercial and racial. There's no element of spirituality. They have Kentucky Fried Chicken right around the house of god. It is an insult to the faith what the Saudis have done. And ayatollahs have become millionaires who are buying properties in Canada.

If you live in Pakistan, why should you care what the Saudis think of you?

Because I care what white people think of black people in the civil rights movement. It is an insult to me as a human being not to accept when racism, sectarianism and hatred of other human beings is being dressed up in my faith. It is an outrage.

Is Islamism confined within the borders of Saudi Arabia and Iran?

It is happening in Canada. It is happening because of Saudi money. The Islam of Indonesia, Malaysia or Bengal, Bihar, Punjab is different as the spiritual faith there is completely depoliticiced.

You go to any Muslim cemetery in Canada -- you will not see a single tombstone. Why? This is a culture that celebrates the Taj Mahal, and in Canada we are not allowed to put a stone on the head of a child or a parent or a grandfather. Who decided that? The Saudi funded imams. This is contrary to all Islamic traditions. Go to any other country and you can see beautiful mausoleums, but here in Canada the imams, through Saudi influence, the city councils, have decreed that cemeteries here will have no tombstones. This is all Wahhabi influence.

In your book you discuss the Cairo Declaration of Human Rights in Islam and the United Nations' human rights declaration.

The UN Declaration of Universal Human Rights, enacted unanimously in 1948, allows freedom of choice of religion -- which means no coercion (on) who should believe in what faith. In many Muslim countries, they have decreed that if you choose to convert from Islam to any other religion, you should be punished by death. Second is the equality of man and woman. Such laws cannot be created from the divine text.

So, we have these 57 countries, members of the Organisation of the Islamic Conference, who are controlled by the Saudis. Their head office is in Saudi Arabia. They fund the entire organisation. So, nobody can object to anything they want to do. They are principally involved in keeping the Muslim world in the era of darkness. Many Muslim States argue that the UN Declaration of Human Rights is part of the Judeo-Christian traditions and so it shouldn't be applicable to the Muslim world. It is astonishing.

In my point of view you are walking into a territory that's divine, reserved for god. Who is someone to tell me I am coming to your house and so you should convert your faith or I will kill you? That's what's happening because the moment a Muslim says that I think there's a problem here and what should we do, they issue a fatwa to kill you.

They expelled (Bangladeshi writer) Taslima Nasrin after pressure from Kolkata Muslims. It is horrible. It is a disgrace not only for Muslims but also for the Indian government to have done that. That woman had to run away and that shows how sometimes non-Muslims also become complicit, saying what do we care if one Muslim kills another Muslim.

'Mosques have become places of politics'

June 12, 2008

You are making a distinction between such Muslims and secular Muslims.
About 50 to 60 per cent of the Muslim population is illiterate or semi-illiterate. They are not interested in political power. They barely exist, whether they are in Bihar or they are in Mauritius. They simply want to survive. This gain is for 1 to 2 per cent of the Muslim population. Through political power, they can send messages out.

Who are they?

Primarily the Saudi royal family, the ruling ayatollahs in Iran -- some ayatollahs are in jails in Iran -- and clerics everywhere.

Look at the structures of mosques in Toronto, or elsewhere in Canada. These are large properties. The imam is employed by the board and in many cases takes over the entire structures. I know one organisation that has a property worth $15 million accumulated by the congregation giving cash. Where does this money go? Anyone who controls that amount of money is in politics. He can manipulate lawmakers. He can buy memberships into political parties. He can hire buses and send them to demonstrations. This is what's happening.

It is in the interest of these people to keep Islam politicised so that they can be self-appointed leaders who can communicate with the Western politicians. The ordinary Muslim who is driving a cab or (is) even a physician doesn't have time for all this nonsense. These guys are taking advantage of it.

I have suggested, therefore, that donations given to religious institutions by Canadians shouldn't be in cash but by cheques or credit cards. The money from outside comes in cheques anyway, except there's no way for anybody finding out what's happening in the mosques, as there's no accountability of where this money goes.

There should be a maximum limit that an individual can donate in cash. He should give a cheque or a credit card, beyond that cash. The mosque will never accept that because it is then traceable.

Mosques have become places of politics, which is dangerous. Some mosques are openly defying their charters as charities because they indulge in politics. Every sermon is political because they invite politicians to speak and instead of looking after the affairs of the community and serving their spiritual needs, they [mosques] have become places of bargaining with political parties.

How do you distinguish between an Islamist and a Muslim?

An Islamist is someone who believes in invoking Islam for a political agenda. A Muslim, on the other hand, uses Islam as a moral compass for his betterment and the betterment of his family. An Islamist is also a Muslim but a Muslim is not an Islamist.

India's first education minister, Abul Kalam Azad, a most respected statesman in the country, was not an Islamist. He was against Islamists. Similarly, there are many ayatollahs in Iran who are in jails -- as they are not Islamists.

'There's no greater place to live as a human being than the subcontinent'

June 12, 2008

The Atelier Club in downtown Toronto was packed to capacity recently for the launch of Pakistan-born Tarek Fateh's book Chasing a Mirage: The Tragic Illusion of an Islamic State.
Fateh's book argues that Muslims have been force-fed lies about their history for over a millennium -- not by Islam's enemies, but by its imams.

'Islam came to free humanity from the clutches of the clergy. Instead, the religion of peace has become a prisoner of war, held captive by the very priesthood it came to eliminate,' Fateh, founder of the Muslim Canadian Congress, writes in his book.

In an exclusive interview Rediff India Abroad Senior Editor Ajit Jain, the prolific author, broadcaster and columnist pointed out that in India "Muslims, who are 12 per cent of that country's population, thrive," while "next door in Pakistan and Bangladesh," which are Islamic States, "Muslims suffer."

Through the book -- written despite death threats against him -- Fateh wants Muslims to understand that their future lies in "models that are based in India, South Africa and Canada."

Many Muslims say Islam was supposed to be a way of life but it has become a dogma. That it has been politicised.

In some unfortunate way, it is correct. All the differences within the Muslim community, or the wars and the civil wars that have been fought, have never been about piety but about politics.

What is the solution to the increasingly political overtones to the perception of Islam?

We have to stand up to them (fundamentalists) and expose the ideology of hate. In the Indian context, this is the choice between Aurangzeb on the one side and Dara Shikoh on the other.

We know the catastrophe that happened after Aurangzeb weakened the whole of the subcontinent in his efforts to do what the Wahhabis (an ultra-conservative branch of Islam with roots in Saudi Arabia) are now doing. Aurangzeb killed his brother (Shikoh) who was the crown prince, because he (Shikoh) was very close to Hindus and Sikhs.

It is known historically how Dara Shikoh in the 16th century with the help of Hindu priests learnt Sanskrit and -- again, with their help -- he translated (50) Upanishads and the Bhagawad Gita into Persian, followed on what Akbar the great started, Din-e-Ilahi.

The entire thing became such a huge loss to India. Because of Aurangzeb and Islamic war, the whole country became feeble and the British were able to take over the country soon after his (Aurangzeb's) death.

Wherever Islam has become synonymous with violence and hate, Muslims have suffered tremendously. Of course, non-Muslims have also died by the hundreds, but the main victims have always been Muslims.

The traditional orphans of the Iran monarchs or the Indians recognised this was politics. This was not seriously about religion. Religion was merely a tool that allowed them to stay in power, whether it is Saudis or ayatollahs or in the Indian context, Aurangzeb, we had catastrophes, and repression, and secular Muslims had to fight political battles against these fascists.

Re: # 94
HP...
"I am sure all other countries were under the water and Israel was the first to emerge..."
Oh no, it was Mecca and Medina...everything after that...
Even from space only two places are visible as illuminated Mecca and Medina...
http://ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2147806
http://www.islamonli ne.net/discussione/thread.jspa?threadID=11014&tstart=0
http://forum.mpacuk. org/showthread.php?p=426337
Last URL even provides evidence (like Muhammed split moon in front of arabs)...

# 94 HP

When you show disrespect to hindu way……. U are in a way showing disrepct to your ancestors.

Is it true that Kaba has 168 idols around the big stones and the big stone itself is lShiva Lingum? This is what a pious Muslim told me.

Present day Arabs from Palestine to Saudi Arabia are linguistically Arab because Islam forces Arabization. Palestenians are racially closer to Assyrians. Kurds are closer to Indians/Baluchis. Iraqis are racially different from Bedouni Arabs. Bedouni are real Arabs. Unless Bakis t self destruct themselves, in 50-60 years Bakis will turn into Arabs.

Re: # 94:
"Hindus are the best, most beautiful, and most intelligent(and rich) race ever seen on the face of this earth. I don't know why they paint houses with cow dung though? Can you enlighten me, Please?"

So that mosquitoes called Hizda Paki does not enter.

Re: # 94
HP...
When people are caught cheating, react like this.
Definitely I will educate Laddu, but you need to be rescued come from mediaval,middle east barbarism.

Re: # 40
Arjun...
I am of the idea that motivation comes from Quoraan and the concept of infidel, jihad, there is only one god called allah and Muhammed is the last prophet etc... is sourced from Quoran.
Regarding victimhood...please find a person, who has no unhappiness in this world, as part of a group or individual. As per my understanding, most of the asians face more problem in their native countries than West. If they need to blow up, it should be Pakistan, not UK (lack of good education system, no good job environment...).
Regarding Iraq- to blame US marines is like blaming British Govt. for pre-partition massacre(1947)...

#92 Posted by nkg

"This is your (and other moslems' as well) opinion about the modern state of Israel....
The history of the state of Judah and Israel is much older than most middle eastern states."

I am sure all other countries were under the water and Israel was the first to emerge.

You really know history. You are just another Toynbee of the modern era. It is such a pleasure to have you here.
India is blessed to have people like you. Can you write an article for Chowk on the Israeli history? I am sure Laddu would like that. A genius like you shouldn't waste his time responding to my posts.

Hindus are the best, most beautiful, and most intelligent(and rich) race ever seen on the face of this earth. I don't know why they paint houses with cow dung though? Can you enlighten me, Please?

Re: # 83
Ananth...
Muslims are of alien origin in both the places ( India and Israel) and trouble maker for local people...
The way we avoid to mention islamic barbarism in many states (exception - B V Patel of Gujrat rebuilt Somnath Temple and abolished the islamic rule in part of Gujrat) jews/israelis do not hesitate. Jerusalem should kick out all arab settlers from it.

Re: # 70
HP...
This is your (and other moslems' as well) opinion about the modern state of Israel....
The history of the state of Judah and Israel is much older than most middle eastern states. Old cities like Jerusalem, Jericho was built by Jewish people and archeological artifacts prove that. All the excavations in that area contains writings in hebrew (not a signle in arabic). This area was vandalised by so many people (Babbilonians, Asyrians, Egyptians, Romans, moslems/arabs...), that large section of the original inhabitants migrated to different parts of Europe,Persia and India. The last invaders of that area were arabs, who had destroyed temple mount partialy and built Al-asqa mosque over it. You will find similar pattern in India too (Govinda Dev Temple in Mathura and Viswanath Temple in Kashi/Varanashi).
Islamic barbarism is similar in all places. They have to destroy something and build over it (maintain the tradition set by Muhammed "The barbarian" on Temple of Kaba)...
WWII and related untoward incident was the catalyst of creation of modern country of Israel. It was kind of recovery of bad loan.
Tendency of moslems to wipe out glorious period of a place from history and impose mediaval barbarism is quite common in many places. Be it in Egypt( most glorious period was ruled by Pharaos, but they will put emphasis on mediaval barbarism) or Pakistan (history of Pakistan starts with invastion and vandalism by Muhammed bin Kasem, Indus valley civilisation,Taxila university, Gandhar art,architecture and literature is trivial).

And Tahmed, FYI, #90 was not directed to you! :)

Chowk interactors are requested to kindly desist from (mis)using my (nick)name to score petty brownies over each other during meaningless chit-chat and instead focus on wasting their time doing more meaningful chit-chat on this site to quickly solve the serious problems of the world.

#88 so pandit pagal and deputy pandit pagal showed up - could the pandit monkeyman doing backflips have been too far behind?

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#83 i see that the manhoos pandit pagal referred to in #85 is encompanied in his entourage by manhoos deputy pandit-pagal.

#84 wapas aa giyaa manhoos pandit-pagal.

Afghan bid to set up post in Pakistani area foiled



By Our Correspondent


GHALANAI, June 10: Tension mounted along the Pakistan-Afghan border after Nato-backed Afghan National Army entered the Pakistani area in Mohmand agency on Tuesday.

The Afghan troops wanted to set up a checkpoint in pakistan area

///////////////////

More of teh same to come. Parts of pakistan are being iraquised.

#70 HP

Nice to know about a Pakistani’s feeling towards the Palestinian problem. I see Pakistanis look at it as a problems between natives and the settlers.

Hindus look at the Muslim presence in the subcontinent the same way. Muslims are alien settlers in this land.

Good to see that the pakistanis who saw the dawn of a new pakistan in teh zardari victory are still alive, and if it were not for them being pakistanis, they would have quitt chowk long ago in disgrace,

They should have read my posts and where I said that nothing will change in pakistan, only the jihadis will become more powerful.

Peshawar is now in teh jihadi hands and slowly teh true islam will spread to all areas.

The paki army has been defeated by teh jihadis and they are on the run. More and more areas will be surrendered to the jihadis.

Every predator attack will be followed by a suicide bombing of paki army and govt institutions. Take it from me.

The iraquisation of pakistan is not very far away.

deen-e-mullah fi sabeelillah fasad... (Iqbal)

lan'at bar mullah .... bay shumaar

We want Pakistan of Quaid and Iqbal, not of Modoodi, Qazi and Mullah Imran Khan.

http://letusbuildpakistan.blogspot.com

#77 Posted by alice,

Meri neend uR gayi hai

Then write a nice iLog!

Meri neend uR gayi hai, and I'll go to sleep when I please, but thanks for the "concern."

anyway, I think enough attention has been diverted from the subject here. . .

alice/ana, please go to sleep. I haven't the least idea what got you so offended. But whatever it may or may not be, my apologies.

Goodnite, now.

now you sound like beejay. o my god, you were bad enough sounding like you!!!!

whatever.

just because i don't put up with certain bakwaas does not mean i have a chip on my shoulder but if it pleases some of you men to think that way, saanu ki?

#75 Posted by alice,

... he's already joined your league in terms of telling some of us we have no minds of our own

Huh? But 'some' of 'all' kinds of people have no minds of their own. You have a chip on your shoulder .... !!!

zeemax:

eklavya never addressed me with "ji" before, as kaalchakra, or whoever the hell he was before. and i see no reason for him to address me so now. he's already joined your league in terms of telling some of us we have no minds of our own, so really, there's no need for him to use the "ji". It's fake.

#73 Posted by zeemax
I don't remember exactly. But the reference to the Temple did not jive with the discussion then. You can go back to it. But I don't recall the thread anymore!

#70 Posted by HP,

HP, and you were asking ME what the Solomon's Temple had got to do with Zionists in USA?

#69 Posted by alice,

I think it's customary for Indians to attach the 'ji' like some Pakistanis attach 'bibi'. I think the first is just a manner of speech while the second is definitely patronizing. But sure your objection must be respected!

Sleep well, alice/ana.

#52 Posted by laddu

“Perhaps a few lines summarizing the current Palestinian problem from informed Pakistanis would be enlightening !!!�

“A man is thrown in a Soviet prison cell and the other inhabitants of the cell crowd round him. “How long you in for,� they ask. “Ten years,� the new man laments. “And what did you do?� “Nothing. I did nothing�. “You liar,� the prisoners shout. “For nothing you get five years.�

You just gave me five years!

The conflict in the Middle East is complex as there are so many players and many losers. The creation of Israel was in no way a recompense for the Holocaust because it is not the Palestinians who caused the Jewish Holocaust - it was Hitler in Germany. Old biblical/religious writings were used as the basis for creating the state of Israel.
The story of Israel-Palestine conflict starts from 1882 when the first settlers arrived Europe.

I would recommend you start with Wiki and build your knowledge at your pace. At some point in time I will point you to some places on the net where some great discussions take place about the history and the current status of the conflict. Some of them are right wing sites and some other are liberal or left wing. However, the quality of discussions is top notch. The participants are from Israel,Arab countries, Europe and the US. And you can learn a whole lot by just reading through the discussions. Mostly, these guys don’t like newbie and simple questions. Depending on your level of comfort, you too can take part in the discussions later on.

This is Ben Gurion, the first Prime Minister of Israel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ben-Gurion

"If I was an Arab leader, I would never make peace with Israel...we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs..There has been anti-semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see only one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that?"

My name is not ana ji, or alice ji. it is alice or ana. And as I have said before, if you cannot address me without using the "ji" then kindly do not address me at all. Because eklavya, I do not find your addressing me in such manner to be respectful, and I do not believe you mean it in that way. I don't give a rat's ass what you think of me, because I don't think much of you. So let's drop the "ji", and the pretense, shall we?

thanks.

You were going to sleep, alice ji. May the night be good to you.

Eklavya:

First of all, stop being patronizing. Secondly, please go and take a look in your newly found mirror (ask arjun where that is exactly) and then feel free to do whatever you like to yourself.

I hope that was illogical enough for you, o grand master of logic and understanding. puhleeze. . .

#62 Posted by majumdar,

What else do any secret service female recruiters do? Hand out pamphlets or make power point presentations? haha!

alice ji, there are thousands of groups around the world who are/have been persecuted, prosecuted, exiled, deprived, oppressed, killed, raped, murdered, ethnically cleansed..do you expect me to be interested in them all? Please be logical here.

I understand Muslims being interested in Palestinians. And I have no problem with that at all. That is how it ought to be.

Ana,

Good night to you. Hope you will be back tomorrow and we can resume our nok jhok sessions.

Regards

Majha:

Touche' dude! Touche'. But at least some of US know what we are talking about when we are critical of our institutions.

Anyway, I'm tired of this us vs. them BS. And reductive reasoning. And tonight I plan not to try and stay awake past my bedtime, so until the next time. . . khudahafiz.


eklavya:

Palestine is interesting to more than Muslims. And when you can get a grip on that, as well as other things, who knows what will happen in this world?

Palestine is interesting to Muslims in terms of her being free from the Zionists. Palestine will be much more than Islam though, and its citizens will see to that. It is not going to be another state based on religion. That must be very disappointing to you, no?

Zee sahib,

The article you have quoted unfortunately do not say anything about her horizontal antics.

Regards

Zee, explaining matters to Laddu Mahraj would be quite a challenge. The only thing HE is interested in is how to stop murderous Islam. To that end, he has even extended open invitation to Sattar bhai to come live lovingly with his idolator self in India.

LOL, this man is quite something!

Laddu Mian,

For your Palestinian primer, read below how a blonde bombshell ex-Mossad recruiter by horizontal persuasion is set to become the next Israeli PM:

Israel's Mrs. Clean

Time Magazine - Thursday, Jun. 05, 2008

Who can blame Israelis for being disgusted with their politicians? A sex scandal brought down the last President; a former Finance Minister faces indictment over alleged fraud, theft and money-laundering; and Prime Minister Ehud Olmert may be indicted for taking more than $150,000, mostly in cash, from a New York businessman. A popular bumper sticker says, OLMERT, YOU DISGUST ME. The deepening sense of odium is reflected in Olmert's single-digit popularity ratings. He may be forced to resign within weeks, and already politicians have begun to handicap the succession.

Condoleezza Rice has a lot in common with her secret new soul mate, Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi...

It's probably no coincidence that the odds-on favorite to replace Olmert is a politician with an ironclad reputation for honesty and integrity--she famously insists on always picking up her own tab, even if it's just for a plate of hummus. Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni is in many ways Olmert's opposite. The Prime Minister is a jokey backslapper and charmer, a consummate pol with expensive tastes in cigars, flashy wristwatches and fountain pens; Livni, 49, is a no-nonsense former Mossad agent who eschews small talk, avoids the Bar Mitzvah circuit most Israeli politicians use to rack up favors and lives quietly in a modest Tel Aviv home with her husband and two sons. And she has strong views on probity in the public sphere. "I resent the idea that corruption comes with the political system," she tells Time in her glass-and-wood-paneled Jerusalem office. "It doesn't."

Livni is the most prominent member of Olmert's Kadima party to have urged that he step down. He has said he will stay on and fight to prove his innocence. (He admits taking money but says he spent it legitimately on campaign expenses.) But if pressure grows, he could step aside, allowing the party to pick a new leader. In a poll of Kadima members, 35% said they wanted Livni as the next party leader, giving her a 10% lead over her closest rival, Transportation Minister Shaul Mofaz, a former army chief. Livni doesn't try to hide her hopes. Friends who've asked her why she wants to become Prime Minister have received the reply, "I know I can do this job."

Livni was born into a political family: both her parents belonged to the Irgun, the armed Zionist militia responsible for attacks against the Arabs and the British in Palestine in the 1930s and 1940s. But she chose to steer clear of politics, first serving in the army as a lieutenant in the Israel Defense Forces, then waiting on tables in the Sinai before joining Mossad, the Israeli foreign-intelligence agency, in which she served from 1980 to 1984. She learned elementary spy craft in Paris, including lessons on how to recruit agents. She also learned the importance of discretion, a valuable skill in her current role as chief Israeli negotiator with the Palestinians.

She left Mossad to become a lawyer and continued to avoid politics for 10 years, at a time when the country was being torn apart over the question of exchanging land for peace with the Palestinians. When she finally took the plunge, it was to help shape the terms of the exchange. "Tzipi said she'd prefer to be the negotiator than let someone else do it and give it all away," says Eran Cohen, her former political adviser.

Voted into the Knesset in 1999, she became a loyal supporter of Ariel Sharon, leader of the right-wing Likud Party; when he created the more centrist Kadima, she followed. In six years, Sharon named her to seven different ministerial posts. Along the way, she broke with her parents' Zionist views; friends say she'd rather have a peaceful Israel to bequeath to her children. Livni also rejects the Likud Party's vision of an Israel encompassing both banks of the Jordan River. "In order for us to be a democratic and a Jewish state, in the long run, we'll have to give away some of the land," she says.

That doesn't make her a soft touch as a negotiator. Her Palestinian counterparts say she is fair but tough to the point of stubbornness, especially on Israel's refusal to accept Palestinian demands for the right of refugees to return to their old homes inside the Jewish state. Livni's reply: Let them return to a future Palestinian state. Livni has also earned the admiration of European colleagues, who cite her lawyerly logic and pragmatism. And she has made a close friend of U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, whom she calls at least twice a week. "Tzipi's strength to endure, indeed to excel, in what were difficult, often heartbreaking, conditions was a testament to her character," Rice wrote in a tribute last year when Livni was named one of TIME's 100 Most Influential People.

Her parents would have been proud--even if she strayed from their vision for Israel. When Livni accepted a two-state solution for Israelis and Palestinians, she got a call from her ultra-Zionist mother Sarah: "This hurts me to say this, but we didn't fight for the state of Israel for our generation but for all generations to come. This is about your generation, and I trust your decision." After Sarah's death seven months ago, Livni found out that her mother's old comrades had turned against her because her daughter had betrayed the Zionist dream. A friend told Livni how Sarah had responded: "My daughter's always right." Israelis may soon have an opportunity to judge whether she's right for them.

alice ji

Palestinians are interesting to Muslims.

Ana,

(You all don't believe us when we talk about Pakistan)

We do. When you say bad things about Pakistan (tongue wala icon)

Regards

Maj

Not a bad idea. I am sure Kaal bhai would do a good job

Now who's pulling whose leg?!!! *rolling eyes ikaan*

In all seriousness, there is more to the Palestinian struggle than the jehad, Hamas, and the PLO. And if that idiot Laddu, or anyone else really cared about Palestine beyond what some mullahs are saying about it, they would not ask Pakistanis like HP to educate them on Palestine. You all don't believe us when we talk about Pakistan, so what would be the effin' point?

Some of you Indians claim to know much more than us Pakistanis, so go ahead, enlighten us. Some of your words have been beacons so far. . . .

Ana,

(why don't you ask your good friend eklavya to do so)

Not a bad idea. I am sure Kaal bhai would do a good job.

(as do you.)

Now, you're pulling my leg!!!

Regards

majumdar:

why don't you ask your good friend eklavya to do so, since he seems to make such neat precis about everything else? as do you.

it is not easy to make such a neat precis about what is going on in Palestine. They are still under occupation. They have been fighting that occupation since 1948. It isn't just about the Muslims. Homes were taken away from Palestinian Christians as well. It is not enough to say that this is about "real estate." History is not that simple and "precis" , and as Sting sings, it will teach us nothing. It has obviously taught some here nothing at all.

Ana,

Re: 53

But it would be nice if some learned chowkie could read the whole stuff and make a neat precis for the rest of us folks, no?

Regards

Perhaps reading what Edward Said, Hanan Ashrawi, Mahmoud Darwish among Palestinians would be more educational than learning about Palestine from informed Pakistanis.

Then of course, one has to give a damn about Palestine and the Palestinians, which some pathetic ignoramus obviously doesn't.

Don't use the Palestinians to make a point about Pakistan.

Sindhu ji,

Perhaps a few lines summarizing the current Palestinian problem from informed Pakistanis would be enlightening !!!

Zee sahib,

Geo TV report suggests it was Afghan soldiers, not NATO planes.

Regards

#25 Posted by ahmedmadani,

Let's see what Pakistan's response would be now. Nato planes just bombed a Pakistani military checkpost in Mohmand Agency and killed 13 soldiers including a Major.

eka,

U have a strange style putting ur points across. I got it ;)

Masood wanted to get relief from Tihar jail whereas Jamia Hafza cleric preferred martyrdom. Shahada is the MOST important covenant of true Muslims.

I always get an impression u r one. Kyon?

vrv, one doesn't have to sacrifice one's life to be able to make huge contributions to one's nation and to the world.

Here is an European women I admire. Note also the (global) connection to politics on the subcontinent. Her martyred ex-husband hastened the departure of one of India's allies.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/28/world/europe/28terror.html?fta=y&am p;am p;pagewanted=print

Masood Azhar and ISI i.e establishment are bosom buddies. Secondly, Masood was a confirmed coward. He wont sacrifice his life for Islam.

The fears of the author are far fetched (II Jamia Hafsa) but the Islamisation of Pakistan is a well documented fact.

No, there are actually no great surprises in life. some people truly are thaaaat ignorant. *rolling eyes ikaan*

#42 Posted by laddu
If Palestinian problem is a real-estate problem then why not guys sit and resolve it amicably.....

I have never seen such an imbecile statement in my life. Yes there are surprises in life.

#42 Posted by laddu
"If Palestinian problem is a real-estate problem then why not guys sit and resolve it amicably -"

Your grasp on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and related Middle East diplomatic concerns is so poor that I think you would need to spend the rest of your life in a library just to get to a state of neutral ignorance. Looking at the uninformed comments I literally pity you.

Without History we really have no guide. The past, like the present, is complicated.

A majority of Pakistani people likes Islam in its shape as it is exercised in that region now a days... That's why nobody stops Jamia Hafsa or Lal masjids to grow and prosper...


After realizing that my ideal about pakistani society is not the popular one, I feel that it is better not to resist the trend. For the sake of team work, it is better to accept religionization of the society...Atleast this way, we will have atleast a sense of direction...

And obviously, I have a personal option to move out of it... And I have already done that...

Re: # 28

"Fighting for your cause also requires knowledge and an understanding of issues faced by other nations. Investing in knowledge helps you fight your cause intelligently. Right now your approach is more like the Jihadis who fail to investigate the problems and apply ridiculous solutions.

Sounds like you are trending the same way. A good fight is an intelligent fight. Ignorance is not your best friend.

PS. Palestine is not a state. It is still under occupation"

Sindhu ji,

If Palestinian problem is a real-estate problem then why not guys sit and resolve it amicably - where does religious wars and Jehad enter into the entire dispute??

How come the Shia alsatian dog barks about annihilating an entire state of Israel ( which sounds so horribly sick as well).

Why do mullahs endlessly talk about the "Jehad" in Palestine and Kashmir in the same breath?

Can you peel off the layers here??

#25 Posted by ahmedmadani on June 9, 2008 9:19:54 pm


I was wondering what if PAF scrambles fighers and shoot these air machines can this pilotless airmachines can target moving airmachine. PAF if shoots few and say they do not know nothing message will to respect national boundaries.


so why don't you madani sahab? could it be perhaps because you lack a pair? or because your F-16s have all sorts of interesting "features" that won't let them do shit like that..

or is it because of the USAF F-16s and Navy F-18s that will surely follow...?

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Re: # 37; Zeemax

whatever makes you happy sir!......some folk are so easily pleased with the little things in life!

Re: # 36; Zeemax

I am still looking for "the perfect operating mask" to fit my nose!!

my great grandfather (father's side) was a sikh too

... as recent as that? I can definitely see the resemblance!

#35 Posted by akcheema,

I think prominent nose is one of them, and generally sharp features :)

Re: # 34; Zeemax

what are 'sikhni' features?

my great grandfather (father's side) was a sikh too
maternal side were sikhs further back in time

#32 Posted by akcheema,

But she clearly has Sikhni features. Is it the same clan?

Cheema sahib,

Incidentally as children close family friends (my father's colleague) were Sikh Cheemas.

Regards

Re: # 30; Zeemax

sorry just saw this...thanks!

btw, check out this link...another one of my "rishteydaars";

http://www.radio.sbs.com.au/language.php?news=arts& amp; amp;language=Urdu

her name is Amrita Cheema....sadly she left SBS for Germany recently (far more educated and sensible)

Re: # 24; Laddu

If you'd read what I wrote...it is very clear from my post that Palestine WAS a real-estate problem and has been hi-jacked

as for Kashmir, I have no more grounds claiming Kashmir as part of Pakistan than laying Pakistani claim on East Punjab or Hyderabad Deccan

I hope it is clear enough

akcheemaJi,

Hurried/harried statement from your rishteydar after something the Mulla said :

Spokesman: Pakistan not scrapping peace deal with local Taliban

ISLAMABAD, June 10 (Xinhua) Xinhua - 2 hours ago --

A Pakistani Interior Ministry spokesman on Tuesday denied ending peace deal signed by the North West Frontier Province (NWFP) with local Taliban.

"Swat peace deal is not scrapped, it is still intact," local private Dawn TV quoted Interior Ministry spokesman Javed Iqbal Cheema as saying.

Earlier, senior minister of the NWFP Bashir Bilor said the peace deal with the local Taliban in Swat valley did not end.

The Interior Advisor to Prime Minister Rahman Malik said on Monday that the Pakistani government had scrapped the peace deal with the local Taliban in the volatile Swat Valley.

Malik's statement has caused sharp response from local militants in Pakistan tribal regions.

Maulvi Umar, a spokesman for Tehreek-e-Taliban, or Pakistan Taliban Movement, reportedly said that the militants would turn cities of settled areas into battlefields if the government scraps its truce with them.

The deal was signed by the North West Frontier Province (NWFP) with local Taliban, and Malik denied having said the peace deal was scrapped, Cheema said.

#23 Arjun...
I am not convinced, how Taliban in Afghanistan can threaten USA. They do not possess any ICBM or nuke warheads. Furthermore, USA has good missile defence system. Apart from Russian arms, USA do not possess any external threat.
Regarding attacks in US installations in various countries in Africa and Central Asia, it is very difficut to prevent. Quran and arms all are available in almost all countries. Recently Karnataka police uncovered Islamic literature, Terror Training material and arms close to an islamic shrine in jungle. Constitutionaly, police can not raid any islamic institution without any proof or definitive information. India is biggest sufferer from this Jihadi/Islamic activities for centuries. Anyhow, India is benefitting from US activities....

#21 Posted by laddu
“for a state that teaches its young that jews are pig. for a state whose entire existence is based upon Jehad against Jews and which has NO other accomplishments to give to the world EXCEPT Jehad- there is certainly something very sick about it!!!�


Pundit,
I have full sympathy with your cause but you hurt it the most when you take it upon yourself to repeat utter nonsense and propaganda pieces by the Israeli media. I would not open a discussion about Palestine here but surely would take it up at an appropriate time.

Fighting for your cause also requires knowledge and an understanding of issues faced by other nations. Investing in knowledge helps you fight your cause intelligently. Right now your approach is more like the Jihadis who fail to investigate the problems and apply ridiculous solutions.

Sounds like you are trending the same way. A good fight is an intelligent fight. Ignorance is not your best friend.

PS. Palestine is not a state. It is still under occupation.

Kaal bhai,

Such a talented and committed man cannot be kept down. He will still achieve much in Pakistan and abroad.

You never fail to bring a smile to my face!!! But I hope if he has any achievements to make, they are within the borders of Pakistan.

Regards

Ahmad Bilal

Very impressive knowing that you belong to the same city as Masood Azhar. Not everyone may always agree with him, but Masood Azhar has played an important role in Pakistan's national life, and has been a key actor in the field of international diplomacy.

More to the point, hailing from the same town as he does, you should not have missed the opportunity to listen to Masood Azhar's speeches.

He is a PHENOMENAL speaker. Before 9/11, the Internet was full of his speeches (and speeches from many other Pakistani religious individuals).

One of Masood's speeches I particularly enjoyed was titled something as - Babari Masjid Roti Hai (Babari Masji Weeps).

It was an absolutely fabulous piece of masterly oration, natural gift perfected with passion. Not very friendly toward Hindus, but then he was representing the position of Muslims, and did a great job of it.

Such a talented and committed man cannot be kept down. He will still achieve much in Pakistan and abroad. There were years when he had great support in Pakistan, and given what he represents, could not have lost all that support even now.

Re: # 23 Arjun.... This is unconventional method method of punishing american elites and stooges. Killing two birds in oone shot. You ask bush to stop sending pilotless airmachine and making terror activity in Pakistani airspace. THen co operation will start. I was wondering what if PAF scrambles fighers and shoot these air machines can this pilotless airmachines can target moving airmachine. PAF if shoots few and say they do not know nothing message will to respect national boundaries. Elites are dependent supply from Pakistan and still their arrogency and afghan arrogency and giving free advice poisons atmosphere. Shoot few and sense will prevail or choke life blood line for one week and american will talk differently.

Cheema ji,

I see a lot of similarities in the Palestinian strategy and the other muslim "struggles" in chechniya, kashmir etc etc.

This is no longer an 'estate-issue' - it has been turned into a religious and communal WAR by the political Islam.

I am not labeling it as a WAR - it is the term given by those very muslim leaders who are in the fore of these "struggles".

Now, you have to decide whether you accept these so called muslim leader's call or not. Ask these Pakistani muslim leaders in PAkistan if kashmir is an 'estate problem' or it is a Jehad??

roses are red
violets are blue
the jihadis you created
are now killing you

US think tank: Pakistan helped Taliban insurgents



By JASON STRAZIUSO, Associated Press Writer Mon Jun 9, 2:23 PM ET

KABUL, Afghanistan - Pakistani intelligence agents and paramilitary forces have helped train Taliban insurgents and have given them information about American troop movements in Afghanistan, said a report published Monday by a U.S. think tank.
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The study by the RAND Corp. also warned that the U.S. will face "crippling, long-term consequences" in Afghanistan if Taliban sanctuaries in Pakistan are not eliminated.

It echoes recent statements by American generals, who have increased their warnings that militant safe havens in Pakistan are threatening efforts in Afghanistan. The study was funded by the U.S. Defense Department.

"Every successful insurgency in Afghanistan since 1979 enjoyed safe haven in neighboring countries, and the current insurgency is no different," said the report's author, Seth Jones. "Right now, the Taliban and other groups are getting help from individuals within Pakistan's government, and until that ends, the region's long-term security is in jeopardy."

Pakistan's top military spokesman rejected the findings.

The study, "Counterinsurgency in Afghanistan," found some active and former officials in Pakistan's intelligence service and the Frontier Corps — a Pakistani paramilitary force deployed along the Afghan border — provided direct assistance to Taliban militants and helped secure medical care for wounded fighters.

It said NATO officials have uncovered several instances of Pakistani intelligence agents providing information to Taliban fighters, even "tipping off Taliban forces about the location and movement of Afghan and coalition forces, which undermined several U.S. and NATO anti-Taliban military operations." No timeframes were given.

The report said Pakistan's intelligence service and other government agencies provided Taliban and other insurgents with training at camps in Pakistan, as well as intelligence, financial assistance and help crossing the border.

When asked in an Associated Press interview last month what the state of the insurgency might be in 2013, the outgoing NATO commander in Afghanistan, U.S. Gen. Dan McNeill, said: "If there are going to be sanctuaries where these terrorists, these extremists, these insurgents can train, can recruit, can regenerate, there's still going to be a challenge there."

Afghan President Hamid Karzai has pleaded with the world community to address the issue of militant sanctuaries in Pakistan. Afghan intelligence officials say young, uneducated males are recruited in the border tribal areas to become suicide bombers and fighters. After battles or attacks in Afghanistan, militants flow back into Pakistan to rest and rearm, officials say.

Pakistan — which supported the Taliban regime in Afghanistan before the Sept. 11 attacks — denied it is supporting the insurgents, but acknowledged the problem of militant infiltration.

"Whenever these kinds of places are identified or pointed out, action is taken against these places and there are umpteen examples in the past where the actions have been taken against these insurgents, or, for that matter, foreigners," said Pakistan military spokesman Maj. Gen. Athar Abbas. "Therefore, we reject this claim of sanctuaries being aided by Pakistan's army or intelligence agencies."

Pakistan Interior Ministry chief Rehman Malik said Monday that he met with Karzai in the Afghan capital over the weekend, and the two sides agreed to set up biometric screening at key border checkpoints.

Malik said tens of thousands of people cross each day without any documentation.

"They go without any checking — no passport, no documentation. It's a free for all," he told reporters. He said the new computerized system would begin operating within two weeks.

Nevertheless, he defended Pakistan's efforts to police the border, saying the government had deployed 120,000 troops and had set up five times more border posts than there are on the Afghan side.

Malik expressed willingness to share intelligence on extremists and conduct joint operations with Afghan security forces. He denied that Pakistan would strike peace deals with terrorists in order to calm Islamic militancy on its own soil.

Pakistan has insisted it is only pursuing negotiations with militant groups willing to lay down their arms, and it has relied partly on tribal elders to mediate. A handful of deals have already been struck.

U.S. officials say attacks where American troops operate in eastern Afghanistan have gone up significantly since those deals were reached earlier this year.

The study said that besides the Taliban, other major militant groups find sanctuary in Pakistan. These include al-Qaida, Gulbuddin Hekmatyar's radical Hezb-i-Islami group and the Haqqani network, led by Jalaluddin Haqqani and his son, Siraj.

"These insurgent groups find refuge in Pakistan's Federally Administered Tribal Areas, North West Frontier Province, and Baluchistan Province," RAND said in a news release. "They regularly ship weapons, ammunition and supplies into Afghanistan from Pakistan, and a number of suicide bombers have come from Afghan refugee camps based in Pakistan."

The report also called on the U.S. and its allies to help build the Afghan security forces, particularly the police, and to improve the quality of local governments, especially in rural regions.

It also claimed that Afghanistan's police are incompetent and "almost uniformly corrupt," echoing frequent criticism of the police by international officials here.

The U.S. is spending billions of dollars to train and equip the Afghan police, but the efforts are still years away from being completed.

___

Re: # 21; Laddu

The Palestinian problem is exclusive and unfortunately has been exploited by both the Israelis and Muslims alike

those that suffered as a result were the poor palestinians; I donot agree or condone their current tactics though

it was a pure "real-estate" issue; palestinian christians were as much affected as the muslims.....unfortunately, the muslims in recent years hi-jacked it for their own purposes; that doesn't make the suffering of these people any less

Re: # 17

"Can you tell me what is sick about Palestine?"

for a state that teaches its young that jews are pig. for a state whose entire existence is based upon Jehad against Jews and which has NO other accomplishments to give to the world EXCEPT Jehad- there is certainly something very sick about it!!!

Re: # 17

"You can’t place a banner w/o the permission from the city. I think the offensive Banner or billboard should be brought to the authorities and the provincial government to take action. Writing sensational articles is not enough."

Yes, that is the right way for the civil societies to move.

But counter-ideological strategies like writing this article is also warranted!!

The struggle against these violent Islamists who want to NORMALIZE violence and hatred against others has also to be fought on the ideological fronts.

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#16

"if there assembly at that school is peaceful and laws are violated."
Correction:

if the assembly at that school is peaceful and laws are NOT violated.

#13 Posted by laddu

Pundi Laddu Maharaj,

"Pakistan is turning into another SICK state like Palestine......the seed of hatred have been sown......."

Can you tell me what is sick about Palestine?

Is there any law in India that can stop RSS Chaddi group from congregating at one of their buildings?

“On my way back home, a huge billboard at the heart of the city grabbed my attention. It showed a passenger plane on fire with a slogan on top: Another Victory for Muslims.�

You can’t place a banner w/o the permission from the city. I think the offensive Banner or billboard should be brought to the authorities and the provincial government to take action. Writing sensational articles is not enough.

Has Ahmed Bilal sent this article to some Pakistani Paper or sent a letter to the editor?

Let’s put Ahmed Bilal's concerns aside and look at this issue with the legal rights these people have to open a school and maintain it.
First, they have a democratic right to assemble and that can't and should not be denied to them if there assembly at that school is peaceful and laws are violated.

Is the organization unlawful?
Is the organization violating any local laws?
Is the organization violating a social or cultural issues or customs?

I think just because they are congregating at a certain place, is not enough reason to place a ban on these people.

Sounds like the people in the neighborhood have no problem with them. In that case, what rights others have to remove them from the area?

Love it. This may not appeal to those living cosy lives in some comfortable parts of the world and having hallucinations or strong cravings that why those people in Pakistan do not listen or heed to their adivces and be free for ever. It was April 1984. Gen. Cia-ul-Haque's Islamic dynasty was at its zenith. A retired subedar grabbed my left arm and asked me, "have you offered prayer?". I told him no. He was chairman of Salat committee. He did not question further but I knew the consequnces. All God fearing forces in the world were focussing to defeat the unbeliever Russians. Isralei sold arms so did Indians. Indians sold old WWII Le Enfiled rifles also known as 303 or 3not3. Never got used. Upto that part was OK. But one who will not offer pray would be treated as Russian too even he/she has no clue about it. My official documents have the following five titles for me: Athiest (dehria), communist, Melhid (do not know how to translate it), anti-Pakistan and anti-Islam. I went to Islamabad's AabPara the same day. Lal Masjid was the headquarter for CIA-ISI-Mujahideen axis. Mujahideens were selling the military hardware in the adjacent Jumma Bazar (except guns). I bought two sleeping bags, couple trousers, coats, hats, etc. They were dirt cheap and I needed for my venture across high mountians along India-Pakistan bloody line of control in Kashmir. I decided to drop them off in my room at Blue Star hotel near Zero point. The owner, a Jamiate, asked me for help. What do you need? I inquired. He told me to translate. There were two CIA guys looking for Rahim Khan. I asked what do you want to know about him. In short they wanted to know when he was arriving. I had some too-too-main-main with them. Blue star was my residence for some weeks. The CIA would hand over tens of thousands dollar to individua. 'Mujahideens' will run pockets full of cash sometimes over $100,000. One day I saw Rahim in the second floor - small lobby. Just few sofas could pack there. He looked at me and asked if I was going for Jihad. He probably got confused with my beard and Noorani face. I told him I did not believe in this jihad. It is US-Russian conflict and people dying in this war are wasting their lives. They are not going to heaven. They are just dying. Rahim pulled out his AK-47 and was about to shoot me when a teenager boy grabbed the gun barrel and asked him to stop. This teeanger was the son of Mujahideen leader. The family was on its way from Saudi Arabia back to Peshawar. Rahim told me (yelled at me), that his two brothers who were engineers in the USA got martyered in Afghanistan. You say they are in hell. I was scared as Rahim had AK-47 in his hand but I did not show any sign of fear. I moved back to my room. Then it was May 1992. I had some personal business in Islamabad again. I went to Peshawar Moor. The USAID office was located in two small size rooms. The USAID office during 1980s was housed in a multistory building in Blue Area. Inside these two rooms was one guy with his feet on a table. A water cooler, a rolled small carpet in the corner, a fax and a phone machine. The jihad shrank to these two rooms. I asked him, what happened to your big office. He offered me cigrette and told, we are done. Our project is over. Russians are out of Afghanistan. I asked him, have you seen the scale of destruction in Afghanistan? He said, "congress has no more funds for this project any more". I looked around and thought, I may start believing God if HE takes some revenge from those who destroyed 3 million people and a entire country. Now, I think I am starting believing GOD.

Ahmed Bilal,

Hope your father is in good health, excellent article not only because it carries a worthy message, it also talks about Bhawalpur, one of my favorite small cities of Pakistan.

I remember Bhawalpur with its peaceful yet beautiful streets, extremely generous and hospitable people and rich history. Now this, seems the country fabric has been infected to the core, time to pack up and leave or start packing a six piece.

"I wondered if the ones behind this billboard actually realized what they were portraying. Beneath the billboard, the cityscape was filled with common Pakistanis going about their everyday struggle for survival."

Pakistan is turning into another SICK state like Palestine......the seed of hatred have been sown.......the cult of violence has been NORMALIZED in the society........people ACCEPT JIHAD as the summum-bonnum of a momeen's life.....every PAkistani wants to be a Shaheed......

This is the sign of a truly SICK society!!

write=writ in #11

the only way the state can restore balance here is by applying total and overwhelming force.

It will be damned if it does and damned if it doesnot (you can see this from the statements made by Zeemax and Urstruly here and els where). So it might as well do it and get damned - atleast for some time its write will run. And when the State does a flag march or the sipahi turns up people will shiver in the 50 degree heat.

I say the State should turn the place into total rubble. and ensure that the land in not habitable for a few years - use phosphorous grenades followed by phosgene.

The misery of Pakistan can be traced back to dead rag heads of 7th century Arabia. Someone ask these knuckleheads that there is shortage of food in Pakistan, and they are conducting conferences on “Azamt-e-Quran�? as if that will satisfy their hunger and feed their kids.

Good piece Ahmad Bilal. Except when you conclude that US is somehow in a roundabout way involved in creating this monster. No matter what happens in Pakistan, US is the easy one to place a blame on. Hard ones to blame are the more obvious ones. But let’s not dare blame Islam for all our ills.

Re: # 8

Kamath sahib; this type of democracy has been given enough chance. Only thing that has changed in last three months is that, People Party has become the new Q-league and NS' ML has become what were the harami moulvis in the last 5 years. As a matter of fact the ruling elite of this country is one and same - whether its bearded haramis, or foujis, or feudal pirs or nouvou industrialists - they are all corrupt, pro-western, and incompetent.

Had these a/holes been serious about returning Pakistan to a fair and equitable society they would have sent this soowar dictator to jail thru the first session of national assembly. Foujis are the harami galore who are protecting this dctator and a currupt, inefficient, and incompetent system, for their own benefit, with their guns. Dream on, but things are not going to change without a popular dedaly revolt. And its written on the wall.

Re: # 7 Unstruly;
You are obver reacting! You have to give democracy a chance in Pakistan. Look at the bottle as half full and not half empty. The newly elected govt of Gilani will march ahead very slowly but will succeed! It is not easy to become a clean person after all therse years Pakistan was a sickman of South Asia.

Even India which is a democracy which took charge of the reins of the state as pakistanis did, is a FLAWED DEMOCRACY with its share of criminals corrupt politicians, Fascist parties and fundamentalist Hindu parties. It takes time for any meaningful changes to strike roots.

Kamath

It was absolutely another matter to conquer 6 to 16 year old school girls in Islamabad but this time it is going to be napak fouj whose ass is going to be phosphorized. This time they are ready. As state machinery in Pakistan has gone out of control denying constitutional rights to its citizens, it is absolutely mandatory for all Muslims living in the country to arm themselves and protect this country and their families from this criminal outfit of foreign agents, pimps, and criminals who are running the country. This fine point just keeps slipping over people's head that it is the state machinery that is ultimately responsible for keeping law in the society; it has failed; repetedly; what is people to do?

Re: # 5; posted by arjun

I know Arjun; unfortunately, it is sad nevertheless.

#3 Posted by akcheema on June 9, 2008 4:32:31 am

cheemabhai: before 9/11, the jihadis were killing people outside allah's most favored nation..they were actually armed and trained in the land of the pure...after 9/11, they're just going the same thing closer to home.

uh-oh...with the paki rupee at an all time low, importing all those phosphorus grenades is going to cost a bundle.

shake and bake and debt..

I spent some time in Bahawalpur; went to S.E.College (two years to be precise). Still have close family there too.

It is a shame that such a peaceful part of the country would come to this. There was also the open firing on a congregation at a local church following 9/11; a very close friend's life was permanently affected by it.

Makes me sad but what is one to do?

"Strict-politicaly motivated..."
BTW, what is the actual interpretation, that so many people are missing in so many different places (London, Madrid, Mumbai, New York, Pakistan,Thailand...)?
You people should have rectified the interpretational problem (if anything is actualy there) during the first Jihad (invastion of Kashmir in 1947/48) from the newly formed country of Pakistan.

"strict politically-motivated interpretation.
700 armed men, who freely did target practice there
US benefits from the instability in the region to maintain military presence here
bearded men in white robes think they are doing some great service to religion by dedicating their lives to militancy
I wondered if the ones behind this billboard actually realized what they were portraying."

If these misguided mullahs had the slightest intellect they would be doing something constructive as all these efforts are negative and no where close to what Islam propagates.

Same old mullahs new tricks.

After all, all those who accept the funding from US or other non-Pakistani sources are not only committing an act of treason against Pakistan but also against the faith of Islam and it's teachings.

It certainly amounts to another Lal Masjid or Peeli Masjid in the making as covered by this article and should be demolished before any construction takes place.