Attack in Mohmand

http://www.thedailystar.net/story.php?nid=41730

Recent article in a newspaper states that, Talibans in that area (Mohmand) captured two helicopters of NATO/US forces (while these were on the way to Afghianisthan via Pakistan-land route). One Chinook and one Cobra/Apache with additional components. US was mounting pressure on Pakistan to recover those stuffs, otherwise it may reach to China. The way unused Tomahawk become Dong Hei (China) and Babur(Pakistan) cruise missile...
May be another 5/6 years time you will see Chinese helicopter with XXng YYng and its Pakistani counterpart of some afghan looters name.....

Btw that form of "community justice" is also superior to the "capitalist justice" where your $$ can buy you the justice based on the lawyer they get, and a "justice" where the wealth is drained from the workers to enrich a few who then in the name of those "citizens" invade and destroy whole countries. The community type justice is much superior to the capitalist hypocrisy parading as "justice"

In #206 read "An eye for an eye justice is much superior to the "color line" justice where based on whim whole countries are destroyed." as

An eye for an eye justice is much superior to the "color line" justice where based on whim whole countries are destroyed with impunity that is granted because they are on the wrong side of the color status...

#203 tehsin writes "Do you mind elaborating on this superior system of justice that you are referring to..."

Afer being stumped and proven a liar this fool returns again. Note that I qualified that "justice" as being still( meaning even considering its defects) superior to the white man's "justice". An eye for an eye justice is much superior to the "color line" justice where based on whim whole countries are destroyed. You being a peon of the West have no concept of justice or injustice, your kind of people who worship the West rallied for the Israelis as they undertook their "justice" of a soldier's kidnapping by destroying Lebanon...

Hamid, you miserable rat, the question was addressed to me not to you...

Hamidm2...
Mud hut (with dried palm leaves or hay as roof cover) is not that bad to live in, the way it looks...It is better than stone or concrete built houses...both the walls and roof provides better thermal insulation...

Local justice, specialy for family feud or land disputes sometimes yields better result than Govt. established courts. In such case, lawyears gets deprived...

Re: # 203

tehsin mian,

.... he is talking about the system where a twelve year old gets to shoot his father's killer in front of ten thousand people packed in a football stadium, followed by a woman in burqa being shot in the head for adultery ...... it is a superior form of justice - cheap, quick and entertaining for the citizens .....

#197 Posted by masadi

"a sense of justice (that is still superior to the white man's "justice")"

Do you mind elaborating on this superior system of justice that you are referring to.

Hamid writes "if "strong group and family ties and a sense of justice" was such a virtue these people would not be an 'impoverished society' living like animals in caves and mud huts "

Unfortunately in today's world system and in the peon countries of the West these "virtues" do not determine economic success or power, selling your mama to the highest bidder does but that certainly is no "virtue"- that is why I say, you have morals that would make a knanzeer go red in the face...

Beat that fool!

Re: # 198

"Close to $25 Billions per year are spent in different forms for subversion of India as a civilization"

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1080610/j ... 389712.jsp

Cash scanner on evangelist
JOHN MARY

Thiruvananthapuram, June 9: A high-profile evangelist is under pressure to explain an “unaccounted� amount of Rs 900 crore his trust received from the US as Kerala’s crackdown on “commercial spiritualism� gathers pace.

Bishop K.P. Yohannan has been under the watch of regulators and police since the hunt for “fake godmen� began in the first week of May for having received the funds from the Texas-based Gospel for Asia in the past 12 years. Failure to explain could make him the subject of a probe.

The police claim that a trust closely held by Yohannan and his relatives had received Rs 1,044 crore for charity and church activities from Texas body since 1995 but spent only Rs 144 crore on such purposes.


Director-general of police (intelligence) Jacob Punnose has told home minister Kodiyeri Balakrishnan about the “unaccounted cash� and recommended an inquiry to verify how the trust had used the Rs 900 crore. Chief minister V.S. Achuthanandan is aware of the matter.

The assets of Believers’ Church, Yohannan’s trust, were estimated at Rs 572 crore and Gospel for Asia’s at Rs 472 crore. The nature of the probe is yet to be decided since there are several departments and agencies concerned with the activities of Believers’ Church and Gospel for Asia.

Since the amount flowed in from a single source, the Gospel for Asia, the Reserve Bank will have to probe if any part of it had been spent on activities outside the country and whether it was done with permission. Another matter to be examined is how Yohannan’s trust has retained 2,500 acres when the law allows only 2,000 acres and whether it had secured special permission. The bishop was not available for comment.

Yohannan is not the only one facing the heat in the drive “commercial spiritualism�. Other Christian prayer-healing organisations like Swargeeya Virunnu (Heavenly Feast), run by Brother Thanku (Sam Kuruvila) and Brother Thomas Kutty are also under the scanner.

Re: # 197

masadi mian,

.... if "strong group and family ties and a sense of justice" was such a virtue these people would not be an 'impoverished society' living like animals in caves and mud huts ...... i am sure gul bibi, who is begging in the streets of kabul sweltering under her tent burqa, would love to trade places with laquanda johnson sitting in her aircnditioned subsidized apartment in baltimore putting stars on her six inch nails and munching on government cheese .....

correction: "Sages and swamis which includes people like Shirdi Saibaba, a Hindu who was raised Muslim and became a fakeer. Most of the lower consciousness which gets attracted to Malida of easy money, jobs and political power, can be taken of by having 100% reservation in jobs for Dharmic folks without any distinction among the indiginous Dharmas/Panths/Castes."

read
Sages and swamis which includes people like Shirdi Saibaba, a Hindu who was raised Muslim and became a fakeer, are dusting off this accumulation of past 1K years. Most of the lower consciousness which gets attracted to Malida of easy money, jobs and political power, can be taken care of by having 100% reservation in jobs for Dharmic folks without any distinction among the indiginous Dharmas/Panths/Castes.

Re: # 196
"You are correct. Islam should have been banned in India after 1951"

Organized legions such as Paul's Christanity, Mohammed's Islam, Marx/Stalin's Commuinism and Americanism need to be banned for true LokRajya and humanism. Every thing needs to grow organically from the land, language and culture of the people. Dharma is humanism, secularism and material well being as well by design. It's deep in our DNA, we just need to get rid of the dust accumalated in last 1K years. Sages and swamis which includes people like Shirdi Saibaba, a Hindu who was raised Muslim and became a fakeer. Most of the lower consciousness which gets attracted to Malida of easy money, jobs and political power, can be taken of by having 100% reservation in jobs for Dharmic folks without any distinction among the indiginous Dharmas/Panths/Castes. There needs to be Jizia on Semitic legion folks. This will cure almost all problems in India including poverty. Close to $25 Billions per year are spent in subversion of India as a civilization by ..you know who.

hamid writes "masadi mian,

..... i hate to sound cold-hearted and callous, but people who live in caves, treat their women worse than their sheep and have never seen the inside of a shower stall are quite expendable ......"

I will try to keep this civil (you miserable ____). People don't live in caves out of choice, your objects of worship, the white man grovelling in his sh** and suffering from countless diseases as a result emerged from worse conditions not too far back and regarding his mistreatment of women it was second to none. Following your logic they all should have been exterminated leaving no US of A overrun by barbarians. Next, if "women are treated as sheep" does not mean you should treat them as cockroaches and exterminate the very women (and children) you purport to care about (similar to Bush becommmng a feminist to justify the Afghan war). Finally your caricature of that impoverished society with strong group and family ties and a sense of justice (that is still superior to the white man's "justice") is quite outrageous. You are not only callous and cold hearted you are an a-hole who has the morals that would shame a khanzeer....

Re: # 191
Guru...
You are correct. Islam should have been banned in India after 1951 (Constitution formation). Bloody Nehru and other scoundrels created such a situation that India suffers from this mediaval, middle east barbarism for prolonged period.
In B'lore, an area named Sivajinagar (irony) is almost a mini-Pakistan. Last year, one day, we have got e-mail from HR not leave office as trouble broke out in near vicinity. A muslim congress leader (C K Jaffer...) and large number of urdooooo/moslems from a nearby mosque (It was Friday- the trouble making day for moslems as usual) started pelting stone at BMTC buses and destroying private properties- Reason...Saddam Hussein was hanged...Next day, the VHP guys organised a procession and thrashed these urdooo barbarians (moslems)...What police should have done, VHP have to take up that activity...I was so pissed off. Why to allow these moslems reside in Bangalore?

Re: # 194

masadi mian,

..... i hate to sound cold-hearted and callous, but people who live in caves, treat their women worse than their sheep and have never seen the inside of a shower stall are quite expendable ...... it is just lending a hand to the process of natural selection ........ if you and people of your ilk had tried to civilize these 'noble savages' instead of admiring their quaint ways over the last sixty years, we wouldn't have to exterminate them now ..... that is why i say that sociologists and anthropologists are a waste of skin that could be put to better use for lampshades ......

hamid writes " it is a pity we didn't construct any pucca buildings in miran shah and wana; now we have to blow up all those mud huts and kill these poor people like the animals that they are "

You miserable sob, they are more human than your kind of "humans"- they don't butcher world over with impunity as those you support do. It is quite clear from this post that this miserable sob, hamid, is as immoral as they come, when someone does to his own family what the Americans are doing to women and children in that area, maybe then the swine will realize what they have been feeling all along....

#190 TehsinA
"Read his #130 which I was specifically responding to. If that is not a call to arms and getting Pakistan involved in an entirely unnecessary war then I don’t know what is."

This is his post #130 Addressed to Tahmed.
"Your dream of US troops overrunning this land (just like your cheerleading them into Iraq pre 2003 war, and nostalgically writing about the "benefits" of British colonization of India)will never come to be, the people of Pakistan will hand their a$$es to them on the border as they encroach, a fate worse than what they see in Iraq awaits them..."

I don't see any call for arms. He is talking about the US troops overrunning the country and defending the country not starting a war. I hope you don't think defending the country would be an unnecessary war. I sure will disagree with you on that.

I think you misunderstood. Btw, I should not have used the words that I used.(it is all Hamid's fault though!)

tehsin the lying khanzeer writes "Read his #130 which I was specifically responding to. If that is not a call to arms and getting Pakistan involved in an entirely unnecessary war then I don’t know what is. If he or anybody else has so much bluster then rather then swaying other innocents they should just go and do it themselves. "

Here is my #130 reproduced again:


#130 Posted by masadi on June 14, 2008 12:00:01 pm
tahmed writes "Masadi: Have you considered that your perpetual anger may be the result of fleas? "

That is a worry for sobs like you, not for people like myself. Your dream of US troops overrunning this land (just like your cheerleading them into Iraq pre 2003 war, and nostalgically writing about the "benefits" of British colonization of India)will never come to be, the people of Pakistan will hand their a$$es to them on the border as they encroach, a fate worse than what they see in Iraq awaits them...

----

This is certainly not a call to arms as I even made clear when you asked me to pick up arms, I asked you not to jump the gun and let those sobs enter the graveyard before we start digging. Once attacked, my call is to defend the homeland from invading barbarians and that is all. You wrote a whole piece justifying US cross border attacks on women and children, I said given your logic and the FACT that they violate our borders and airspace much more than anything the other side does gives us similar right to do what you claim they have a right to. Don't try to save face or confuse HP who is much smarter than you are and knows exactly where I am coming from...

Re: # 186

"The large section of converts were professionals (carpenter, farmer, weaver...) and were easily fooled and/or forced."

They converted for economic reasons to avoid taxes and for physical security. The traders who possess money have some power over them played the game. The traders got converted first Islam. Then the craftsman. If today GOI declares taxes on Abrahmic legion folks and reserves 100% govt jobs and educational seats for indiginous Dharmic folks, these legions will disappear in five years.

No one needs any religion. The craftsman can get Samadhi while doing his craft with Dhyan or good focus. If the trader does the honest business he will also reach Moksha or Nirvana. The crooks need books.

#172 Posted by HP

“He has a clear understanding of who the taliban and the tribal area jihadis are and I doubt that you can find any post by him anywhere on this site supporting them.�


Read his #130 which I was specifically responding to. If that is not a call to arms and getting Pakistan involved in an entirely unnecessary war then I don’t know what is. If he or anybody else has so much bluster then rather then swaying other innocents they should just go and do it themselves.

Zeemax,
You appear to be a good marksmen. With some knowledge of the Army, Sindh Regiment has best shooters. They are Sindies. Cheerios to HP Sain.

Re: # 31
Arjun...
Means actual Talibs fled and other people sufferred!!! This is very ugly. BTW, what Paki army was doing when Talibs were crossing border?

hp mian,

...... nobody has the right to call my dear friend tehsin 'khanzeer' or anything else - it took me forty years to earn this right ! .... he is a good guy and a paki patriot even though he belongs to one of the lost tribes and has the rather annoying habit of humming off key broadway tunes ......

....now apologize to mr. tehsin, or else .......


.... i still don't understand why we have not been able to civilize these 'tribesmen' over the last sixty years ...... i can't imagine anyone wanting to live like animals if they were given half a chance ..... i know quite a few khattaks, mehsuds, afridis and bangashes who live perfectlly normal lives in karachi and new york ..... it is a pity we didn't construct any pucca buildings in miran shah and wana; now we have to blow up all those mud huts and kill these poor people like the animals that they are ......... it is a shame

Re: # 182
Jayp...
Ham... was teasing masadi...If US would have been economically better, you would have seen another Star Wars/Mahabharata like 1991 Gulf War in Pakistan...Using F-15 Strike Eagle means, Pakistani AF will not be able to prevent anything...

Guru...
Actualy, the caste system, and our complex concepts (Veda, Vedanta...) have kept majority of the people just woking people, without power of thinking outside domain. That have left enough space for misguidance. The large section of converts were professionals (carpenter, farmer, weaver...) and were easily fooled and/or forced. Dalits and these OBCs are biggest problem for current caste ridden politics. No political party (including BJP) is coming out clearly saying the truth...

#167
AH Amin's piece is objective, concise and immensely readable.

WB asks govt to withdraw wheat subsidy



By Anwar Iqbal


WASHINGTON, June 15: Nearly half of Pakistan’s 160 million people may soon be unable to buy food because of rising prices, warns the World Bank but in the same report it also advises Islamabad to withdraw subsidies on wheat, the country’s staple diet.

The bank’s latest report on global development finance also warns that Pakistan’s slower growth outcomes will compress government revenues and make further consolidation more difficult.

The policy makers will have less manoeuvrability to stave off potential effects of deterioration in the external environment.
///////////////////////////

from dawn of today. At last the noose is tightening around that monstrocity created by TNT, Nato troops at the borders slaughtering paki troops, now the WB denying food for teh ordinary pakis..it is time that teh pak troops wonder about why they are defending teh so called borders of a hell hole.

Re: # 148

to be honest, i think an american occupation would be the best thing for pakistan ...... like iraq, we will emerge as a better and more civilized people ..... unfortunately, i don't think the american elite can be bothered to take on the burden of another 150 million ungrateful moslems and personally i would rather spend my tax money on welfare mommas .

////////////////

Well said hamid saab, iraquisation is the best that can happen to pakistan. The more people support, the quicker it will happen

Re: # 178

"You can ignore the above details but no one has thrust Upper Caste status on Sivaji's community."

For sure the alien legion thrust Dhimmi Caste status on all of us. The slaves on the plantation were more vicious to the other North escaping slaves compared to the owners. Recent converts (converts of last 800 years) are more vicious than Arabs and Angloes. You also find dhimmified higher castes more regressive ...

Re: # 107
Hurricane...
Arjun may be harsh...but can you (Pakistanis) deny the support you have provided to Jihadis to murder, loot and destroy Kashmir and Afghanistan? Be prepared for something worse. The curse of Afghans will definitely haunt you for couple of more years...

Re: # 178
Majumder...after long time...

Pavo...
It is the islamic barbarism (Aurang... was the main culprit), which had transformed a near vaishnavite movement of Sikhism into a full martial culture and you are trying to prove something!!!!
Who started Islamisation of Kashmir and how?....

Re: # 178

"Sivaji belonged to the Kunbi-Maratha caste and are considered shudras everywhere in India. No one ascribes Brahminhood or Kshatriyahood to them."

Ganga Bhatt of Kashi coronated Shivaji, giving the title GoBramhan PratiPalak... Suryawanshi descendent in line with Raam. It probably does not matter. Shivaji himself reconverted (Shuddhi Karan) of many Marathas even those in line with Satwahans and Yadavas ie Mohites and Nimbalkars from Islam. He gave his daughter's hand to such a convert. Sooo .. who are those folks entitled to give Bramhinhood or Ksharitriyahood to others. What mattered how sages and wise looked at you. Samarth Swami said about Shivaji, " Bahutansi Adharu, Nishchayacha MahMeru Janata Raja" Your deeds make you Kshatriya, Bramhin or Yuga Purush. Our Krishna born as Kshatriya was Yadava, cowheard by adoption.

Among Marathas, now their is hierarchy based on how close you are from Shivaji & his mother. 96 Kuli Maratha is that.
BTW, Maratha encompasses now Dhanagars as well. All this does not matter in new India. We need to get rid of caste even in talk.

Amin sahib,

(its hypocrisy when a low caste hindu does well and is promoted to be a high caste one as happened with sivaji.)

Sivaji belonged to the Kunbi-Maratha caste and are considered shudras everywhere in India. No one ascribes Brahminhood or Kshatriyahood to them.

They are very powerful and wealthy with very strong development indices in the states of Maharasthtra, Gujarat (Patels, Leva Patidars) and Karnataka (they constitute large chunks of the Lingayat community). Their UP, MP and Bihar equivalents (the Kurmis) are medium sized land owning farmers but classified as OBCs.

You can ignore the above details but no one has thrust Upper Caste status on Sivaji's community.

Regards

we have very distorted perceptions here on the chowk.recent research has proved that aurangzeb ennobled more hindus and more marathas than any muslim king in india. with all the education we remain very narrow and tribal.its hypocrisy when a low caste hindu does well and is promoted to be a high caste one as happened with sivaji.

yes HP Sain.This is going to be a very hot summer and you will see that the paki generals and the paki politicians would roll real imperial b___ls.However lets up that Afghanistan becomes more riskier and business costs go up.With every blast unit rates increase in afghanistan and more than 80 % sub contractors of US Army in Pashtun belt are persons who are talibs at night and respectable engineeers during daylight.I hope that property in pakistan becomes dirt cheap as it was in kabul in talib times and all beautiful women become widows so that its possible to have good time.

Re: # 174: "Current Indian President Pratibha Patil is maratha)."

It probably does not matter but ..she is Maratha-Rajput. Sharad Pawar is Maratha Kunbi. They inter marry. Ramesh Dev is Maratha Rajput married to Konkani/Kannada speaking Gaud (bengali)Saraswat Bramhin. Though there was no Hindu as such there was/is Sanatani/Dharmic culture and way of life, which not just tolerates diversity but celebrates it.

"Shivaji was not looter like Mughals etc.... He had inspired marathas (mostly peasants) to take up arms against jihadis. If Aur... had not initiated islamic barbarism to the extreame (ignoring the local realities),Shivaji's father and Shivaji would have been happy farmer leader in Satara region (like Sarad Pawar etc...). He was not kshatriya."

You are right! Shivaji's father protected KutubShahi form Mughals and tried to start what Shivaji ulitmately did on his own without any help from the father. Shivaji was brought up by his mother who was descendent of Yadavs, Kshatriya and kings after Satvahans in Paithan-Nagpur area. Shivaji's grandfather Maloji was farmer/Kunbi from Dharashiv-Beed. If you go back to find the roots of Yadavas ..they were milk-men.

Caste was fluid it got fossified by Muslims and British. Aryan/Dravidan is just plain racist baloney, invention of British. People who worked in open got dark skin. I have seen even Kokani Bramhin farmers as dark as their fisherman brothers. Our Paki darbari gandu brothers should note that. They have tendacy to divide people as their Anglo masters, inspite of few egalitarian verses in Koran. Probably the whole edifice of Islam rests on dividing people, eg, kafir & momin, slave & slave owner, people of book & idolators, etc. Caste will disappear in India but it will stay in Bakistan. Caste is breathing because of politicization of it and external (anglo-arabi) funding.

#Pavo...
Guru has anyhow informed in the last post...
Afghans had no other skill than looting (after Budhdhism got destroyed in Gandhar region). Where as, maharastra was almost a complete civilisation (they have own set of professions, literature, social discipline,performing and fine art, agriculture... Satara region is now the sugar belt of India. Current Indian President Pratibha Patil is maratha). They need not depend upon loot. Neither, they have the culture of treating women as sex object only...
I think the current achievment of marathas vs. gandhar region will tell you the big difference...

#Pavo...
Shivaji was not looter like Mughals etc.... He had inspired marathas (mostly peasants) to take up arms against jihadis. If Aur... had not initiated islamic barbarism to the extreame (ignoring the local realities),Shivaji's father and Shivaji would have been happy farmer leader in Satara region (like Sarad Pawar etc...). He was not kshatriya.
The successive maratha rulers were mostly peswas(Brahmins), who were more interested in power game than making large maratha empire.
Islamic barbarism had united the faction ridden Rajputs and transformed Sikhs into a martial race. Your Afghan (so called superior martial race) was thoroughly f***ed by Ranjit Singh...the way J S Arora done that on Niazi and gang in 1971 war...Anyhow, in both the instances, Arora or Ranjit Singh was not ruthless on moslems...
After losing the first anglo-mysore war, EIC also used marathas to kick out Tipu and other jihadists from Mysore and Nawabs from Vijaynagar(Deccan)...
For large effect of Bidhdhism, Ganga valley failed to resist islamic invaders and lost everything ( still they have failed to recover from the doom).

Arjun is right.... There was no identity called Hindu...the word was fabricated much later in Indian context...It was locals vs. middle east/central asian barbarians...

#160 Posted by TehsinA
"Yes, if Masadi, Zeemax etc. who keep calling for, wishing for and writing about the merit of Jihad then rather then them poisoning young minds I would rather they lead by example."

I appreciate that. However, you are just relying on Hamid to call masadi a jihadi supporter. He is clearly not. He has a clear understanding of who the taliban and the tribal area jihadis are and I doubt that you can find any post by him anywhere on this site supporting them.

His views about the US are well known and he is not the type to hold back!

Re: # 167

Congrats for writing a book in good English. Who is the audience? Is it west and anglophile subcontinental coconuts? Long on selected details but short on wisdom.

"The situation was ironic i.e. both Muslim Afghans and Hindu Marathas were basically predators! The only difference being that the Afghans were more course and uncouth while the Marathas were a little more refined, but only relatively!"

To raise and feed an army one needs money. Give an example of Marathas touching women and putting people into permanent slavery. Start from Amar Chitra Katha Shivaji and then reach upto Yadunath Sarcar. Better spend five years in interior Maharashtra to understand Marathas and Marathi culture. Learn about how Shivaji returned with honor the very beautiful daughter-in-law of Persian Shia Mughal Subhedar and punished the sardar who brought her as booty. Learn about how sworde and respect was given to the Mahars and Mangs the supposed lowest of the low in caste hierarchy. Influence of Bhakti and Warkari movement on Marathas and Marathis. Learn how Afghans took close 100K Maratha women (mostly Bramhin) and children as slaves back to Afghanistan after the last Panipat. Making equal-eaual of Marathas and barbaric Abdalis is strategic gandugiri, which blurs your vision.

Forget about his-stories written by Britishers or Darbari Indian gandus. Look at the DNA make up. Look at the total belief in exploitive and Arabic imperialist legion. What gets written on DNA is real than what is penned by lifafa journalists.

How many Muslim majority countries have democracy and rule of law? Can we say farther a country or society in Arabization and Islamization more is the democracy and rule of law? British came to muslim majority bengal first but there is no democracy in bengal. Minorities are persecuted in Bengal. Wherever desert legions in predominance there is no democracy and diversity. Last desert legion is communism. The desert legions suck away life. People are made disown their history, culture and ancestors. In such environment how can democracy breed?

As mentioned in earlier post by arjun, unfortunately second part of Marathas fell in the hands of people who were good at business (trading) though Bramhin as castes. They were good as administrators and managers but not so good as leading from the front (except first Bajirao) or as statesman. Shivaji was Awatar more in line with Yada YadaHi Dharmasya Glani Bhavati... Wish he had longer life than 47 years.

#166 pavocavalry
"An independent judiciary is regarded as a threat by all including USA whose secret agreement with PPP and Musharraf guarantees non return of Iftikhar , the PPP and the army generals.The drama goes on .Nawaz Sharif appears to be the only odd man out."

I still can't figure out how re-installing Iftikhar would constitute Independent Judiciary. The threat is an outsider taking over one important branch and ruin the game. He was not an outsider until the lawyers picked him up on their shoulders. From the Lawyers pov, reinstating of Judges only means handing the army Generals’ combined asses on a platter to the public. Everyone should be clear on that.

The movement for the restoration of Judiciary is one of the greatest civil rights movement in Pakistan but its mission was not just restoration of Judges. That was a means to an end.

Establishment knows that. Lawyers or the middle class in Pakistan can not be allowed a landmark victory, So all organs including the political parties-who are not democratic in any sense-joined together to deny that for as long as they could. They fully intend to dilute the Judges restoration, if the movement forces them.

Nawaz just ‘appears’ to be the odd man out. He is an insider. He is all Saudi money. Zardari and the army begged the Saudis to stop him and they did. Did anyone see Zardari’s picture with the Saudi Crown Prince? He was sitting there like a lowly Hari.

Just watch the fun. As I had already said, this drama is whole lot deeper and longer and we have barely reached 60% mark. The climax is still a long way off. However, some more action would come our way in the next couple of weeks when the US will turn the heat on in the tribal areas.

My estimate is that the tribal areas would be hot like tandoor around the end of summer. The election campaign the US would also gain momentum around that time.

As Pavo said, we have all American cast on both sides of the border and in the middle too. Let’s wait and see who takes the center stage!

#81 pavocavalry/#87/#79 ijaz_gul,

Pavo, guess Ijaz Saheib means the present COAS Gen Kyani.

#167 Posted by pavocavalry on June 15, 2008 8:24:32 pm

pavo: your analysis is surprisingly shallow...it's based not in fact but in the pakistani worldview of the martial paki and the cowardly hindu..the same mentality that lead to the ass kicking in kargil..

Shivaji didn't start a rebellion because he was bearing the cross for all hindus. He was mainly pissed off at the local rulers who happened to be muslims. Shivaji, in fact, had a bunch of muslim generals in his army.

The history of the marathas is actually in two parts..One was shivaji and the other was the peshwas..

There was no such thing as "The hindus"...each region of india had it's own thing..in fact, at that time there was no concept of india...the people to the south of the vindhyas did their own thing..

The Destruction of Democracy in Pakistan- A Historic Analysis



Extracts from "The Politics of Indo-Pak Muslims — A Political and Psycho Social Study" a book written by A H Amin dealing with the Indo-Pak Muslim politics from 1858 to 2000.

June 2000



In 1947 once India and Pakistan emerged as modern democratic states on the world map the expectations of the world and of people living in both the countries were high. The independence of both the countries was the result of a gradual process of political reforms initiated in 1909. Contrary to the impression in certain quarters India was never groaning under the British heel! The country as a matter of fact was conquered by the British employing an army which was some 75% Indian and 25% European. The process was gradual and spanned some 130 years starting from around 1757 and continuing till almost 1880. In most of the places the "English East India Company" which ruled the subcontinent till 1858 was actually welcomed. The reasons were complex. Prior to the company's entry the country was in the grip of anarchy and internal turbulence. The company was perceived as a better master in the relative sense by both the Hindus and Muslims in comparison with the predatory Hindu Marathas and the Muslim Afghans who were not bothered about religion and targeted anyone who had movable wealth of any type whether precious metals, livestock, young women etc! By an irony of history in the post-1947 and even in certain pre-1947 history books these Maratha and Afghans were depicted as heroes by Hindus and Muslims respectively! To come back to the point from which we have drifted with due apologies, democracy was destroyed in Pakistan by 1954 while India emerged as world's largest successful democracy at least in terms of population.



At first sight political observers were surprised and western analysts and political scientists who think that they are the final authority on all arts and sciences by virtue of being from the civilised world started writing with authority books highlighting reasons for failure of democracy in Pakistan. I read a book which was very recently published and was shocked to find that men like "Ghulam Mohammad" and "Ayub" were being portrayed as innocent well wishers and very honest and simple people trying to save Pakistan! Reading that book whose American author at least at first sight appears to be on the payroll of the Pakistani government or some of its agencies, I was compelled to pen these reflections for a dear friend who wanted a straight unbiased account without unduly condemning or upholding anyone!



The first fact which matters in this whole discussion is very simple. Straight from the history, a concrete observable and very visible fact. The British were the last to come to the present Pakistan i.e. the pre-1971 "West Pakistan"! It is important to note that the British were the first to come to the old pre-1971 "East Pakistan", now Bangladesh. The most populous province of present Pakistan i.e. Punjab was annexed by the English East India Company in 1849. Sindh was annexed in 1843. The NWFP in 1849 was a part of the Punjab and was, therefore, annexed in 1849. Parts of Balochistan were annexed in 1880, while larger tracts of this population wise very small province were ruled by puppet princely states.



Most studies dealing with reasons for failure of democracy in Pakistan remain substance less and inconclusive because their analysis revolves around the first post-1947 decade and about four pre-1947 decades. On the other hand the pro-establishment historians of Pakistan concentrate either on the post-1858 period or the pre-1707 period. Both the approaches are thus narrow and without a solid rationale.



The Muslim question in Indo-Pak subcontinent was unique. In the Middle East or North Africa or in Central and West Asia the complications were never as severe as in Indo-Pak. Initially the Muslims of Turco-Persian descent dominated the region for some 650 years. During this period solid Muslim majorities were created in the north west and the eastern part of the sub-continent. In the late seventeenth century two indigenous communities challenged the Muslims but pluralistic Mughal state. These were the Marathas in the south west and the Sikhs in the north west, the former being a more formidable challenge and the latter being a less formidable challenge, at least during the first one hundred years. The Marathas launched a low intensity war which was much later copied in Spain (1808-14), in Vietnam and Afghanistan etc. The Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb who may be compared to USSR's Brezhnev tried to crush the Maratha insurgency employing all the diplomatic political and military expedients for some fifty years (1660-1707) but failed. The study of this period is extremely thought-provoking. Divide and rule was as craftily followed by Aurangzeb as the British did in the post-1757 period. Many Marathas were ennobled and there were four times more Hindu Maratha nobles in the Mughal Empire than total of all Muslim nobles from present Pakistan! Aurangzeb's policy only partially succeeded; and militarily the Marathas were not crushed. Aurangzeb died without having succeeded in suppressing the Marathas. The Maratha insurgency was a decisive event in Indo-Pak history! Many Hindus in today's India condemn the Marathas as predators and robbers while history text books in Pakistan speak about the Mughal's fighting the Marathas as if Aurangzeb was a President of Pakistan or as if his army was from Jhelum or Attock or Sargodha or Chakwal! (The areas from where the predominantly Punjabi Muslim Pakistan Army is recruited). Both the attitudes are fallacious. Without Sivaji's brilliant generalship the Hindu would never have regained that enigmatic but absolutely crucial feeling of confidence and resolution which was shattered when the Turk Muslims defeated the Hindu Rajputs at the Second Battle of Tarain in 1192. The Muslim Turk emerged victorious at Tarain not because it was inevitable or because the Hindu Rajput was less brave but because the Turkish tactics were dynamic and unorthodox. Just one year earlier the Hindu Rajputs at the same place had inflicted a severe defeat on the same Turkish Muhammad Ghori. 1192 marked the beginning of an era in which the Hindus were slowly but convincingly overtaken and overwhelmed by a subtle but powerful feeling that the Muslim Turks were bound to win. This change in attitude was not sudden but dated from 1192 just like the British psychological ascendancy took off in 1757 or 1764. By 1235 this Hindu inferiority complex which was only a temporary feeling in 1192 became a firmly ingrained and as what the psychologists call internalized feeling! The Hindus were recruited in the army by the initially 2 or 4% Muslim Turks who permanently settled in North India but the feeling that the Muslim Turk was invincible was overwhelming! By 1660 when Aurangzeb was fighting the Maratha a large part of his army was Hindus recruited from the Gangetic plain but the Hindu was shy of facing the Muslim Mughal on the battlefield. If we date the Hindu inferiority complex from 1235 and draw a straight unbroken line till 1660, the total period in years comes to 425 years. Thus when Shivaji started his titanic struggle he was challenging 425 years of psychological ascendancy firmly ingrained in the Hindu head. An illogical and irrational but formidable and overwhelming inferiority complex! Just like the one which plagued all Indians whether Muslim, Hindu or Sikh in relation to the British from 1764 till at least 1905 or even till 1919 or 1941! Muslim historians taunt Sivaji for not facing the Mughals in a conventional battle, while forgetting that Sivaji was carrying 425 years burden on his shoulders! Pakistani Muslims identify with the Mughals forgetting that in 1680 ethnically at least most of the races inhabiting present Pakistan were of little consequence to Aurangzeb by virtue of representation in the Mughal army or the nobility! There were more Hindu Rajputs in Aurangzeb's army than Muslims from the area between Chenab and Jhelum Rivers (the present area from where some 75% of Pakistan Army is recruited). Thus Sivaji by effectively fighting the Mughals in Deccan and Maharashtra from around 1660 to 1680 shattered at least partially a myth of inferiority which had plagued the 80% Hindu majority to a devastating state of political and military docility timidity and inertia! Sivaji's insurgency became institutionalised and was carried on by his descendants with greater success. Sivaji was the undoubted father of Hindu military resurgence in India! Someone may feel that we have drifted from the main course. This is not true because we are examining the origins of modern Indo-Pak.



The Mughal Empire's apparent decline started in 1707 but the foundations of this decline were laid by Sivaji. In the years 1707-1757 the Marathas steadily expanded their territory. The Mughals having failed to destroy them had tacitly acknowledged their de facto existence as a power to be reckoned with. Thus the Marathas assisted the great Mughal noble Syed Hussain Ali of Barha in his advance to Delhi by contributing 11,000 soldiers arriving at the imperial city on 16 February 1719 as allies! The Sayyid and his brother Abdullah deposed the Mughal King on 28 February! In 1728 these indomitable soldiers of fortune humbled the so-called greatest Muslim General in India i.e. the Nizam of Hyderabad at Palkhad (11 March 1728)! In March 1737 they raided Delhi but returned without entering the city since they did not want to get involved in a conventional battle. However, like the Afghans did many years later, they looted the suburbs! In 1760 they defeated the Nizam decisively at Udgir (3 February 1760). It is interesting to note that the Mughal-Maratha conflict was not a Hindu-Muslim contest as many subsequent religiously biased historians portray. Outside their Maratha indigenous territory the Marathas were predators and did not distinguish between Hindu or Muslim. Just like the Afghans once they crossed the Khyber Pass or the Indus River! Many Hindus formed part of the Mughal Army while many Muslims fought in the Maratha Army. These included Hindustani Muslims, Deccani Muslims, Arabs, Baluch, Pathans, Rajputs etc. At Udgir the principal Maratha General was a Muslim, Ibrahim Gardi! Communalism as a phenomena appeared only in the post-1858 era as a direct result of British policies. Religion was not the issue, the issue was power, movable wealth and thus Delhi was looted by equal fervour by Iranian Muslims, Afghan Muslims, Hindustani Pathan Muslims and the Hindu Marathas! This fact is never taught in the schools and colleges at least in Pakistan. About India, may be an Indian can make us wiser, but I am sure that at least the fact that Marathas of the post-Sivaji period were looting both Hindus and Muslims with equal fervour must he being suppressed or at least down played or simply skipped!



In 1751 the Muslim ruler of Oudh Nawab Vizir Safdar Jang requested Maratha help against the predatory Muslim Hindustani Pathans of Rohailkhand and Farkhabad who had gloriously plundered the culturally and predominantly Muslim dominated cities of Allahabad and Lucknow. The Marathas readily assisted the Muslim Nawab and defeated the Pathans, occupied and looted the Pathan tracts of Rohailkhand and Farkhabad and killed all combatants they could find! For this excellent service the Muslim ruler of Oudh allowed them to keep half of the Bangash Pathan territory in the Upper Doab area of UP! Where is any trace of ideology or the Two Nation Theory in all these proceedings? Many Pakistani historians assert that Hindus and Muslims in India were two nations since 711-A.D! In 1756 Ahmed Shah Abdali who was five years later hailed as saviour of Muslims in India invaded India and plundered Muslim Delhi and Hindu Muttra! The Mughal Empire by this time was militarily an almost dead entity! Thus in 1758 the Mughal paymaster general Safdar Jang was forced to invite the Marathas to Delhi to save Delhi from being again looted by the Muslim Afghans! The situation was ironic i.e. both Muslim Afghans and Hindu Marathas were basically predators! The only difference being that the Afghans were more course and uncouth while the Marathas were a little more refined, but only relatively! By 1760 the same Muslim state Oudh which had requested the Marathas to destroy the Rohailkhand and Upper Doab Hindustani Muslim Pathans in 1751 now viewed the Marathas as a threat to their state and decided to ally with the hated Sunni Muslim Afghan and the Sunni Muslim Rohailkhand and Upper Doab Hindustani Muslim Pathan! The Nawab of Oudh was a Shia Persian speaking Hindustani Muslim! Responding to the Mughal SOS call the Marathas who may be compared to the Germanic or Slav mercenary soldiers of the declining Roman Empire moved north with a large army, marching through Delhi in a more civilised manner than the Afghans, occupied Punjab in April 1758. Punjab till then had been occupied by Ahmad Shah's son as governor. The Afghans had systematically looted this Muslim majority province ever since they had occupied it and were rightly hated by the Punjabi Muslims and the Mughal nobility! This fact is not taught in any school or college in Pakistan! But thank God some Punjabi Muslim poets have done a great service to the cause of Pakistan's otherwise highly distorted history by having left certain immortal verses composed in Punjabi poetry! These verses tell the story of the sufferings of the previously highly prosperous people of Punjab both Hindu and Muslim! The Sikhs were hated by the Afghans since they used to rob the Afghans of the booty of looted Delhi once the Afghans used to return to Afghanistan! Once the Marathas captured Punjab i.e. the area till Indus river Ahmad Shah raised the slogan "Islam in danger" and invaded India, crossing the Indus in August 1759. The Marathas withdrew from Punjab and a long campaign followed which is outside the scope of this essay. However in brief the Marathas were defeated by the combined Afghan - Hindustani Pathan -Oudh Muslim + Hindu army at the famous Battle of Panipat in January 1761. Victory of the Afghans at Panipat was indecisive since the bulk of Afghan soldiery was interested in booty and so they frustrated Ahmad Shah's desire to establish an empire in Delhi! Thus after Ahmad Shah again sacked Delhi on 22 March 1761 (a fact which is not taught in any Pakistani school or college) following Panipat his army was close to a muting, fed up with the hot Indian summer, and anxious to carry all the booty they had collected at Panipat and at Delhi! Ahmad Shah was thus forced to return to Afghanistan leaving a Hindustani Muslim Pathan Najib Khan as his agent at Delhi! The Sikhs raided Ahmad Shah Abdali's heavy baggaged army on the way back to Afghanistan!



A Muslim poet of Delhi complimented them for doing so!



" What is the harm if one robber robs another! "



Within ten years of Panipat the Marathas again entered Delhi in 1772 while escorting the Mughal Emperor Shah Alam. From 1785 onwards the Maratha influence was again paramount at Delhi. In 1788 Delhi was again looted by the Saharanpur Hindustani Muslim Pathan Ghulam Qadir Khan Rohilla, who raped many Mughal females, made the Mughal King Shah Alam sing like a prostitute and finally blinded the King! The Marathas occupied Delhi in 1788 and defeated and executed the tyrannical predator Ghulam Qadir Khan on 03 March 1789 following a battle in which they had defeated him in December 1788. From 1789 onwards the Mughal Emperors new custodian was Sindhia, his Hindu Maratha rescuer who protected the Mughal King and also gave him a respectable retainer of Rs 600,000/- an year. The same situation continued till September 1803 when the Marathas lost Delhi to the forces of the English East India Company and the Mughal King became the pensioner of the East India company while being recognised as the de jure Emperor of India just like the Marathas did. The same status continued till 1857 when the great rebellion of 1857 took place.



It may be noted that the advent of the European factor in 18th century was the major factor which complicated the whole state of affairs. Hypothetically speaking if the Europeans, British, French or Portuguese may not have become a major political force in India there may have been no complications about sovereignty and legitimacy in India. The cardinal trend in 1757 was emergence of three different power blocks i.e. the indigenous Marathas, the Northern Muslim Afghan predators and the Opportunist ex-Mughal governors of Oudh and Hyderabad, to which Hyder Ali of Mysore who emerged as a force to be reckoned with around 1770. Out of these the most inherent but stable was the Marathas followed by the Afghans whose ambitions were not anything like empire building but merely carrying away movable wealth. If we take the European factor out then most probably the issue of political supremacy may have been settled by sword leading most probably to the following scenario"-



a. A Hindu Maratha block in Central Western and the Western Gangetic plains.



b. A Muslim block in the north and east in Bengal, Bihar and Oudh.



c. Another Muslim block in the south comprising Hyderabad, Mysore or Hyderabad or Mysore terminating any of the either two.



d. Afghan domination west of Indus and a Sikh dominated state between Indus and Sutlej.



It is natural that the above mentioned situation would have led to another struggle in which the military factor would have decided the issue but the result at best would have been a draw and not a Muslim dominated political system as had been the case earlier since 1192.



The above situation was highly unlikely since the Europeans were all set to attempt to colonize and politically dominate India as was apparent in 1757 by the simple observable facts of their naval and military presence at Madras, Bombay, Goa etc.



Till 1857 there was a certain confusion about legitimacy and political sovereignty in India. The English East India Company was the unchallenged master politically and militarily but at least legally the Mughal Emperor at Delhi was the de jure ruler of India while the English East India Company was at least technically his servant and ruling in his name! The rebellion of 1857 removed this confusion. The British Crown abolished the Company's role and assumed direct control of India's government. The question of military primacy which till 1857 was the main reason for the East India Company was settled. For a hundred years the British Company which had evaded the question of clear cut political sovereignty and procrastinated was removed from the helm of the affairs. The fiction of Mughal sovereignty which had outlived its validity in 1789 or in 1803 was removed. The British reality of being the sole master of India which had a solid de facto basis since 1803 became a de jure fact only in 1858.



It is important to note that in 1857 both Hindus and Muslims fought for the Mughal King and most of the regiments of the Bengal Army which had rebelled converged to Delhi and Lucknow, two political centres of Muslim political power. Both the Mughal Emperor and the Oudh Queen promised that the future state would be a pluralistic state and both Hindus and Muslims would have equal say in the state of affairs. This means that till 1857 the Hindus accepted the political legitimacy of Mughal and Oudh Nawab rule in India. Some 75% of the Bengal Army units which fought at Delhi and Lucknow were Hindu. Further three fourth of the total regiments which had rebelled successfully and escaped being disarmed or disbanded fought either at Lucknow or Delhi. Only four or five regiments fought for the Hindu Maratha Nana Sahib at Cawnpore.



The post-1858 period proved to be a watershed since before 1858 Indians thought in terms of the "military option". The East India Company came to dominate by military domination and could only be removed by a military effort or an "armed insurrection" to use the exact revolutionary word. But the British armed response to 1857, which saw the British fielding the biggest regular British army anywhere outside Britain in the history of British army till 1858, proved that militarily it was not possible to evict the Britishers. On the other hand the British initiated a series of measures which may be called a "Political Response" to the Indians initiated as a result of an analysis of 1857-58 which convinced the British that Indians must not be totally excluded from the process of governing India as they were before 1858. It would, however, be unfair to assert that this response was a strictly mechanical response to the rebellion of 1857. As early as 1818 Lord Hastings one of the British Viceroys of India had thus said: "the time is not very remote when England will wish to relinquish the domination which she has gradually and unintentionally assumed over this country, and from which she cannot at present recede".



A vacuum was created in India following 1858. All the men who could offer an alternative choice to the British by virtue of a claim to legitimate political authority were either dead or imprisoned. A class of loyalists i.e. men who had actively helped the British or had remained neutral now emerged and grabbed the empty places of leaders of Indian public opinion. These men were mostly from the presidency towns of Calcutta, Bombay and Madras. Some of them were from the North West Provinces or the non-regulation province of Punjab. All the rehabilitated Taluqdars (large landholders) of Northwest Provinces, whose lands were restored after the rebellion also joined the ranks of loyalists. In brief "Loyalism" in the post-1858 scenario meant accepting the British rule in India in totality, and to avoid any conflict with the British government, keeping in view the fact that the British were India's benefactors". The Loyalists were drawn from all classes Hindu, Muslim and Sikh and they formed various organisations like the "British-Indian Association" established in 1881, which was a group of the feudals of the Northwest Provinces (later UP).



After 1857 provinces like Bengal and Bombay became more prominently involved in Indian politics. This led to the creation of the Indian National Congress in 1885. This party was initially a British encouraged project and was formed with official blessings. The British rationale behind helping this party was to assist in the creation of an organisation which could act as a safety valve, and assist as a tension discharge mechanism. Resentment against British rule was mounting in certain classes and "terrorism" was used as a weapon by many Indians against various British officials. The British thought that by having a political party many Indians may channelise their resentment in a peaceful manner rather than resorting to the pistol or bomb. The British grand design behind the creation of Congress failed, however, and by the 1890s the Congress became more vocal, blunt and radical in their outlook and demands than the British could tolerate. Initially, the Congress was largely based in Bombay, Calcutta and Madras and the Bengali Hindus who had the highest literacy rate in India were dominating it.



Sir Sayyid Ahmad Khan who was the most prominent leader of the Indian Muslims in general and the Hindustani Muslims in particular started opposing the Indian National Congress from the very beginning. His contention was that the Congress was a Hindu dominated party and that Muslims should keep away from it. Closer scrutiny, however, reveals that Sir Sayyid opposed the Congress because he felt that by aligning themselves with the Congress the Indian Muslims will not be able to take full advantage of the new avenues, which cooperation with the British keeping in view Sayyid Ahmad's policy of "Loyalism" was possible. This perception was clear in Sayyid Ahmad's speech delivered at Lucknow in 1887 in which he attacked the Congress not as a Hindu party, but as an essentially Bengali party. The Bengalis according to Sayyid Ahmad were lower in social ranking when compared with the UP Muslim and Hindu Rajputs etc. Thus he said:-



"Would our aristocracy like that men of low caste or insignificant origin, though he be B.A. or M.A. and have the requisite ability, should be in a position of authority above them, and have the power of making the laws that affect their lives and property? Never! Nobody would like it. Think for a moment what would be the result if all appointments were given by competitive examinations. Over all races, not only over Muslims, but over Rajas of high position and the brave Rajputs who have not forgotten the swords of their ancestors, would be placed as ruler a Bengali who at sight of a table knife would crawl under his chair. If you accept that the country should groan under the yoke of Bengali rule and its people lick the Bengali shoes, then, in the name of God! Jump into the train, sit, down, and be off to Madras, be off to Madras!" (The venue of the Congress session was Madras). Sayyid Ahmed Khan also foresaw that in case democracy was introduced in India the Hindu being the majority would dominate. Thus be said:-



"Where caste distinctions flourish, where there is no fusion of races, where religious distinctions are still violent, where education in its modern sense has not made an equal or proportionate progress among the population, the larger community would totally over ride the smaller community".



Later on, Muslim historians quoted the above quoted passage of Sayyid Ahmad Khan's speech a hundred times to justify the creation of Pakistan. The fact that Sayyid Ahmad Khan was speaking for the UP Muslims is forgotten! The Muslims were a 15% minority in Northwest Provinces (UP from 1901) but they were a 57% majority in Punjab some 55% in Bengal. Syed Ahmad was more concerned with the 15% minority!



Sayyid Ahmed Khan diagnosed the problem but did not recommend any solution, except the policy of "Loyalism". In the post-1947 Pakistan the official line was to present Sayyid Ahmad Khan as the father of the Two Nation Theory, i.e. Hindus and Muslims are two distinct and separate nations. The aim of this discussion may outwardly seem irrelevant but "Loyalism" as a policy or a doctrine had a very negative impact on the Muslims in the long run. The Hindus since 1858 became organised as a party in the shape of the "All India Congress". Many Muslims joined the Congress but the majority stayed away from it, not because it was a Hindu party but because they did not want to annoy the British in any way. Thus no All India Muslim political party was established and Muslim politics remained regionalised. Sayyid Ahmad Khan established various loyalist organisations but these were largely Hindustani Muslim parties. The Punjabi Muslims formed their own association, the Sindhi Muslims their own, the Bengalis their own and so on.



There was another major difference between the Hindus and the Muslims. The Muslim leadership largely consisted of large land owners while the Hindu leadership was dominated by the Hindu Business and Middle class consisting of educated lawyers and professionals from Bombay, Calcutta and Madras. The Hindu educated middle class was formed some 75 years before the Muslims by virtue of acquiring western education at the Bombay, Madras and Calcutta universities established in 1857. Keeping in view this basic difference, the landlord interest lay as a class in staying loyal to the British, while the professional business and middle classes had less reason to please the British.



Sayyid Ahmed Khan's anti- Congress stance is very often glorified by the pro-establishment historians in Pakistan. That this particular approach did not damage the Muslim cause in India is not the issue of our discussion. We are concerned with loyalism and even sycophancy which damaged the Indian Muslims in the long run. Its aim was to please the British, see no need for any political organisation that had realistic and tangible aims and above all was based on the faulty premise that the Hindustani Muslims were destined to lead India. The rise into prominence of men who had assisted the British in suppressing a major indigenous bid for independence, introduced opportunism and sycophancy as the cardinal keywords of success in Indian politics. It must be remembered that initially both the Hindus and Muslims were overwhelmed by the philosophy of loyalism. But the Hindus by 1898 or by 1907 had freed themselves of this philosophy! The immense terror created by ruthless British reprisals of 1857-58 became a weak element of deterrence by 1907. Even if "Loyalism" was a pragmatic philosophy in 1860 or 1880, it should have been abandoned by 1910 or 1914. Unfortunately, the principal Muslim party with an All India potential i.e. the Muslim League remained dominated by Loyalist leaders and organisationally remained very weak as compared to the Congress. A subtle aspect in this whole irony was that intellectually speaking, the potential to organise as a formidable party was present in the Muslims. But the men who dominated Muslim politics from 1857 right till 1938, at least, were sycophants par excellence! Having a constructive, tangible and concrete manifesto and an organisation with grass root basis of Muslims would have annoyed the British masters and was, therefore, unnecessary! Thus a policy of Loyalism pursued for an over extended and out of proportion duration stands out as the principal cause of inability to organise a purposeful All India Muslim Party in India right till 1938! Even if Sayyid Ahmad Khan had lived till 1910, he may have seen the urgency to do so. If Congress was perceived as a threat to Muslims all over India; "why was an all India Muslim party with grass roots basis not organised?" This is a question which few have asked and which no pro-establishment historian in Pakistan can answer? If Congress could bring Hindus and even some Muslims all over India from Cape Comorin to Peshawar on one common platform, why could not the All India Muslim League do it? Another reason may be found in the ethnic differences. The Hindustani Muslim was the key component of the Muslim League and ethnically they could not view the Punjabi Muslim or the Bengali Muslim as an equal. From 1906 to 1937 no serious effort was made to make the Muslim League an all India Party. The Muslim League betrayal of the Muslim majority provinces at Lucknow in 1916 does not in any way give the picture of an All India Muslim party representing at least the Punjabi and the Bengali Muslims. The Jinnah-Sikander Pact of 1938 was a political short cut taken due to Muslim League's failure to organise, as an all India party from 1906 to 1938. It is true that by 1938 or 1940 the Indian Muslims realised the need to organise on All India basis. The British also gave their blessings to this thought keeping in view the operational dictates of the Second World War and the Muslim League became an All India Muslim party. But organisationally no change had taken place. Opportunist men of the Unionist Party who had loyally served the British since 1919 had merely switched sides. The Muslim League had no social programme and thereby posed no threat to the Muslim feudals who joined it between 1940 and 1946. Organisationally speaking the principal cause of the failure of democracy in Pakistan was the All India Muslim League, which seriously speaking was the apology of a political party. Democracy survived in India because the Congress was a solid organisation, organised painstakingly and deliberately since 1885. If Congress was a Hindu dominated party, what was stopping the Indian Muslim Leaders from organizing one All India party which could protect the All India Muslim interests against the alleged Congress ulterior designs? 1919-23 offered a chance but the Indian Muslims lost it by dissipating their energy in the powerful but unrealistic agitation of the Khilafat Movement. The leaders of Khilafat Movement were men of substance but their political aims were highly unrealistic and in the final reasoning exhausted the Indian Muslims by 1923 without any worthwhile gain. Mr Jinnah was not a loyalist but his insistence on following purely constitutional methods in 1920 robbed the Indian Muslims of the opportunity to have any inspiring political ideals. Few people are ready to admit in today's Pakistan that it was Mr Jinnah's identification with the Pakistan slogan in 1940 which made him a popular leader. By a coincidence the Muslim adoption of a tangible political aim went hand in glove with British perceptions about India in 1940 and "Loyalism" "Substance" and "Popular Euphoria" were strangely synchronised for the Indian Muslims in the period 1940-47. "Pakistan" was a substantial political aim, the British also did not view it as a seditious slogan! It inspired the Muslim masses, and it went in consonance with the British policy of 1939-44 to corner the Congress! Mr Jinnah may be compared to Lenin using the Germans to get to Finland and later on defying the Germans! The political aim was achieved, and Pakistan was created. But in reality a political ideal was achieved not because the Muslim League was a wonderful organisation but because events had moved in such a manner that the British perceptions about the future of India had changed. Congress defiance in 1939-44 while the British masters already involved in a desperate war made the Muslims a valuable ally and forced the British to take Mr. Jinnah more seriously. Popular enthusiasm played a major role and this popular enthusiasm also went in line with the official British policy of 1940-45. Thus the demand for Pakistan was not viewed by the British as an anti-government movement in any way. By 1940 the British resolve to hold on to India was much weaker than in 1919. So there was no struggle for Pakistan in the real political sense and when something is achieved without a struggle, individuals tend to dominate and organisations become weak. Thus the post-1947 bureaucrats and army officers revered Jinnah and openly despised the Muslim League. The Hindustani Muslims who had stood by Jinnah through 1937-39 because of Nehru's limited perception retarded him from letting them have few crumbs of minor political office, while the Congress was in power, became irrelevant in post-1947 Pakistan's politics. The Muslim League which was described as the party which had led the Indian Muslims in their struggle for independence disintegrated into six or ten different political parties by 1954! These views may be hard to digest for a Pakistani who has been brain washed by the pro-establishment history textbooks followed as the sole authority in the schools and colleges! The Muslim League cannot be glorified merely because it was a Muslim party. It is an irony of modern history that there is little heroism or substance in modern Indo-Pak Muslim history, and a lot of opportunism, sycophancy and greed for office. Till 1858 the Muslim leadership stood for defiance, heroism and high ideals. After 1858, however, the leadership was dominated by men with slavish ideas. Sayyid Ahmad Khan's loyalism removed the qualitative edge which the Muslims held till at least 1858. It is an irony of history that the Hindu who was initially viewed by many prominent British administrators and thinkers as mild and timid, assumed the role of a defiant patriot in the early twentieth century! All Muslims were not like this, but those who lead them, who represented them etc were mostly opportunists and self-seeking men. There were exceptions like the Khilafatists who openly defied the British but their objectives were highly impractical and unrealistic.



Mr Jinnah himself described most of the Muslim leaders as "spineless people who will consult the Deputy Commissioner about what they should do". It was disgust with Muslim leadership which so much disillusioned Mr Jinnah that he decided to go and live in England.



In today's Pakistan the Muslims from Muslim minority provinces of pre-1947 India take great pride in the fact that they did not desert the Muslim League in the 1937 elections unlike the Muslims of Muslim majority provinces. Careful scrutiny, however, does not prove that the Muslim minority provinces were more patriotic and therefore, voted for the Muslim League, as is now asserted by many Hindustani Muslim intellectuals in Pakistan. The simple fact is in 1937, qualitatively, socially or keeping in view the respective political objectives, there was no difference between the Muslim League, the Unionists, the Krishak Prajak Party, the Sind Azad Party, etc etc. All these parties consisted of loyalists and men with proven record of loyalty to the British. By voting for the League a Muslim could not claim to be ideologically or qualitatively superior to a Muslim who voted for the Unionists or for the Sind Azad Party. The other reason why Muslim League did well in the Muslim minority provinces was simply because the Muslim League was a Muslim minority Province dominated party. On the strictly provincial level just like in Muslim majority provinces the Muslims from the Muslim minority provinces feared Hindu domination and voted for the Muslim League. In the United Provinces the feudal Muslims who had the greatest social standing did not dare to join the Congress since the Congress was not a loyalist party and the feudals did not have the guts to join the Congress and annoy the British. Another reason why the Muslim minority province Leaguers stayed loyal to India was because the Congress enjoyed very comfortable majorities in all Muslim minority provinces and did not offer much to the Muslim Leaguers who had won seats in UP in the 1937 elections. Thus Congress's stand that UP Muslim Leaguers would be considered for ministerial office only if they left the league was too narrow a response and forced the UP Leaguers to stick to Mr Jinnah.



The Muslim Leagues inability to form any Ministry in any province in the aftermath of the 1937 elections led to an important change in the party's orientation. A change which may be described as a major reason for destruction of democracy in Pakistan. Before 1937 the Muslim League was a largely Muslim Minority Province dominated party. The Hindustani Muslims of United Provinces dominated the party while Mr Jinnah the party leader also identified himself with a Muslim Minority province i.e. Bombay. Since there was no conception about a separate state based on religious majority, both the British and the Muslim League leadership erroneously believed that the principal leaders of Muslim League should be from the two Muslim minority provinces of Bombay and UP. The Muslim League's attitude towards the Muslim majority provinces was that of arrogance and condescending paternalism as amply proved at the time of Lucknow pact where the Muslim League by accepting lower percentage sacrificed the Muslim majority in the two major Muslim majority provinces of Punjab and Bengal. Thus the Muslims of the Muslim majority provinces perceived the All India Muslim League as a party which was dominated by Muslim minority provinces particularly Bombay and UP. They further felt that the Muslim League was not an all India party since before 1937 it had shown little interest to open its doors to the Muslims of the Muslim majority provinces. By 1936 Mr Jinnah had realised that without cooperation of the Punjabi Muslims as well as the Bengali Muslims it was not possible to make the Muslim League an All India Party. Thus in April 1936 Jinnah requested Fazli Hussain to be the President of the All India Muslim League session at Bombay. Jinnah wrote to Fazli Hussain that "it was the unanimous desire of the League's council and I along with many others feel that at this moment no one can give a better lead to the Musulmans of India than yourself.......;". but Fazli Hussain was too sharp to be impressed by this outwardly generous but politically slippery gesture.



Today it is fashionable specially in Pakistan to criticise the Unionists as Toadies. A dispassionate glance at facts, however, proves that before 1936 the Muslim Leaguers were happy to do drawing room politics and the Muslim League was a Muslim minority province debating club. From its foundation in 1906 till 1936 the League made no attempt to expand in Punjab and all its leaders did in Punjab was to visit Lahore and to meet a few urban intellectuals and lawyers like Iqbal and Shafi etc. Yet the Muslim minority province Muslim historians keep on repeating like parrots that the Unionists were Toadies, without admitting that all Leaguers from the Muslim minority provinces minus Jinnah were also Toadies. If the Unionists were dominated by the feudals, so was the Muslim League. The difference between the two was not on any social issue but based on cultural differences. The Leaguers from UP and Bombay deep in their hearts regarded the Punjabis, Sindhis and Pathans as uncouth; just because they spoke in a different accent and dressed differently. Thus the League remained a Muslim minority province party. But then the elections came and suddenly Fazli Hussain the uncouth Punjabi Dagga becomes important. An ad hoc reorganization by the League made them ready to contest only seven Punjabi Muslim seats out of which they won one of the Muslim seats out of the total of 75. Mr Jinnah had under estimated the Unionists. Before the elections he had remarked that Fazli (Sir Fazli Hussain) thinks he carries the Punjab in his pocket, Raja Sahib I am going to smash Fazli! Fazli Hussain had warned Mr Jinnah to keep his finger out of the Punjab pie! Fazli Hussain was not a Toady like Shafi or Khizr Hayat, nor did he lack brains like Sikander Hayat! Fazli was a man of intellect from the Punjabis of South of Chenab River! Mr Jinnah was a great man but it is a fact of history that great men do not like men of independent views. Thus Mr Jinnah finally described the Punjab in disgust in the following words "I shall never come to the Punjab again; it is such a hopeless place". This was not the appropriate response since it was largely the League's perceptual fault in mistakenly assuming that having few Lahore-based lawyers like Iqbal Barkat Ali and few others were sufficient to sweep Punjab. It was Mr Jinnah's good luck that Fazli Hussain died in 1936. The historian Ayesha Jalal is not wholly wrong when she says that "in October 1937 Sikandar Hayat (Punjab) and Haq (Bengal) rescued Jinnah from political oblivion by allowing him to speak for Punjab and Bengal at the centre". But this was the turning point because the Muslim League became an All India Muslim Party although without any worthwhile qualitative improvement. According to the Jinnah-Sikander Pact concluded at Lucknow in 1937 all Muslim members of Unionist Party also automatically became members of the Muslim League. Mr Jinnah was also accepted by the premiers of Assam, Bengal and Punjab as spokesman of all Indian Muslims at the All India level. At the provincial level in Punjab, however, the League was now Unionist dominated and this was resented by urban politicians like Iqbal who predicted that the provincial Muslim League of Punjab was now simply a Unionist creature.



The Jinnah-Sikandar Pact was basically a "Mutah" marriage of convenience. Mr Jinnah was interested in being the leader of the Muslims of an All India level. From the point of view of 1937 elections this was not the case but the premiers of Bengal and Punjab assisted Mr Jinnah in reaching the place of a leader of Muslims at an all India level. The premiers of Bengal and Punjab were interested in consolidating their position in their provinces by eliminating the provincial Muslim Leagues which was a major threat to Haq and at least in 1937 a minor irritant for Sikandar Hayat, Haq and Sikandar's abdication of a role at the centre to Mr Jinnah was not an act of philanthropy or a result of Islamic fervour but a delegation of mundane legislative dabbling to Mr Jinnah so that both of them could devote maximum time to their provinces. In 1937 having an All India Muslim League's role was an irrelevant and insignificant business since the British were firmly in control and their departure from India was not regarded as a decade long affair but perhaps a half century or quarter century affair. Thus the office of provincial government was regarded by all Muslims whether from Muslim minority or Muslim majority provinces as the ultimate ambition.



The year 1937 was important in another sense for the Indian Muslims. A major qualitative change was instituted in this year. From 1937-38 onwards the Muslim League was no longer a Muslim minority province dominated as it was before 1937. Mr Jinnah had realised that without cooperation with the Punjabi and Bengali Muslim leaders like Sikandar and Haq, however, much he may have despised them inwardly he could not become an All India leader. The Muslim League constitution was also revised and the seats of Punjab and Bengal in the Muslim League Council were increased as a result of which from 1938 onwards Punjab had more members than UP whereas before 1938 Punjab had as many members as UP.



By 1938 thus Mr Jinnah through a cosmetic political arrangement enjoyed the prestige of being an All India Muslim leader. The Jauhar brothers, Fazli Hussain and all independent or Unionist Muslims who could rival Mr Jinnah in terms of charisma or intellect were all dead. The Muslim majority provinces were ruled by men who thought in provincial terms and were happy that their provincial Muslim League, rivals were no longer a political threat. The Muslim League meanwhile, had no political programme for the Indian Muslims except opposing the Congress.



The outbreak of the Second World War changed the whole political scenario in 1939. Congress opposition to the British decision to bring India in the war against Germany and Japan forced the British to ally with the Muslim League in order to support the war effort. The Pakistan or Lahore Resolution of 1940, a political act envisaging the partition of India into Muslim majority and Hindu majority states was a political decision aimed at uniting the Indian Muslims and in giving the Indian Muslims a tangible political programme. Being a great pragmatist Mr Jinnah realised that religion was a great slogan and adopted it as the political creed of the Muslim League. In today's Pakistan Mr Jinnah's position is sacred and it is not possible to submit any of his actions to any rational assessment. In 1940, however, people with independent mind were well aware that apart from the outward idealism the Pakistan idea was a brilliant political slogan designed to make the otherwise manifesto less Muslim League a popular party. The Pakistan slogan gave the Muslim League for the first time in its history the role of a politically significant party outside UP, Bombay or Madras. Fear of Hindu domination united many Muslim politicians from culturally diverse regions like UP, Bengal, Punjab, NWFP, Sind, etc. The Muslim landlords now wanted a country of their own, the Muslim lawyers and urban commercial classes saw a land of opportunity in a free country which was Muslim majority, and the Muslim masses were galvanised by a brilliant slogan created by politicians. The Muslim League aim was a free Muslim majority country and not "Democracy". Democracy was a British imposed system. The Hindu was more comfortable with "Democracy" since he was in the majority. The two different respective positions of the two communities were natural and logical. The Muslims being 50 years behind Hindus in education and commerce were struggling for survival, while the Congress aim was political power, hence the divergence in political outlook. Mr Jinnah was definitely the only man of substance. But how could he have an egalitarian programme envisaging land reforms etc when 98% of the Muslim Leaguers were loyalists feudals and men of commerce. Loyalism was a pre-Jinnah policy! Ethnic diversity of the Muslims and distance between the Muslim majority provinces in the east and west were dictates of Geography. Karl Marx made a very profound observation in one his writings done in 1852 which very exactly describes Mr Jinnah's position. Marx thus said: "Men make their own history, but they do not make it just as they please; they do not make it under circumstances chosen by themselves, but under circumstances directly found, given and transmitted from the past". Mr Jinnah was a brilliant leader but he was leading a ragged, poorly educated and battered community united by fear of extinction or exploitation by a much larger religious group. Mr Jinnah was a human being and ambitious to be an All India leader. But there is nothing wrong in being ambitious, for Mr Jinnah was one of the few Muslims and perhaps the only one in 1938-47 who had the talent and genius to be an All India leader. His aim was survival of the Muslim community in the political sense. Democracy was just accidental. The Muslim League was not an organized party but a collection of diverse personalities from different ethnic groups organised on one platform under the slogan of religion on a temporary basis. Within the party, the Punjabi Muslims, the Hindustani Muslims and the Hindustani Muslim leaders, all had their distant political ambitions. Since the Muslim League was a compromise between regional Muslim parties at the provincial level and Mr Jinnah at the All India level the division of power formula went through fairly well till 1942 in Bengal and till 1944-45 in Punjab. The subtle aspects of the Muslim League's peculiar position in the period 1937-46 are today either deliberately suppressed or ignored in today's Pakistan. The simple fact is that the Muslim League was not a party but a temporary alliance of divergent Muslim political provincial interests in response to the fear of Hindu domination in the wake of British withdrawal from India. The Congress, whatever its sinister or anti-Muslim policies or its Hindu dominated composition was a sound political party unlike the Muslim League. Mr Jinnah knew this fact and steered a difficult course walking on a political tight rope while dealing with four different provincial Muslim leaderships. The position of the UP Muslims in this situation was complicated and interesting. Regionally speaking they were clear that in case of establishment of Pakistan they would be an ethnic minority. Liaquat, their principal leader thus pursued a policy of total loyalty to Mr Jinnah. He had no provincial government to look after unlike the premiers of Bengal, Sindh, Punjab etc and thus became Mr Jinnah's number two. Between 1937-40 Pakistan was only a slogan or a distant likelihood and no Muslim leader of significance was really keen to be Mr Jinnah's number two. After 1940 and particularly after 1944 when Pakistan became a more likely possibility, Liaquat's position had been strengthened and no politician from any of the Muslim majority provinces could rival his claim as Jinnah's successor.



The changes in between 1937 and 1946 which made the Muslim League a successful party were the result of two factors. First, was the Jinnah-Sikandar Pact and the second, was the great emotional appeal of the Pakistan slogan. On the organisational level, however, the party did not really improve. Its pre 1937 nucleus were the two Muslim minority provinces of UP and Bombay. From 1937 the focus shifted to the Muslim majority provinces of Punjab and Bengal. However, the rise of the party in Punjab and Sind was not matched by a significant increase in number of members or branches. The major change which took place was that as the various feudal politicians in Punjab and Sind realised the strength of the Pakistan slogan they switched their allegiance to the Muslim League. The genuine Punjabi Urban Muslim Leaguers were dumped! The resultant sweeping Muslim League victory in 1946 elections in Punjab and Sind was not the result of an idealistic change in the hearts of the shrewd feudals but a realistic and pragmatic appraisal that Pakistan was inevitable and the Pakistan slogan had tremendously stirred and galvanised the Muslim common man. Thus, the most crucial reason for failure of democracy in Pakistan was the All India Muslim League. It was an apology of a party, a Sigheh arrangement and a short-term tactical reaction to the correctly perceived threat of Hindu domination! Later on it became fashionable to say that the Pakistani people were not ready for democracy! Actually, it was the Muslim League which was an apology of a party and as soon as the Muslim landlords got a country where Muslim landlords could kick the Muslim masses, Muslim League the undoubted failure evaporated like vapours! Pakistan was Mr Jinnah's achievement and he was rightly called the "Great Leader" but to achieve what he did he was forced to make many compromises between 1937 and 1946 and bring many opportunist turncoats and reactionaries in the Muslim League paving the way for the destruction of democracy! Even if he had lived beyond 1948 there would have been a reaction and Muslim League would have disintegrated. In war we unite and in peace we divide is the philosophy of opportunism. The Noons, Tiwanas, Mamlots, Hayats, Syeds and Khuhros could not compete intellectually with Nehru or talk without being obsequious like a butter to the British Viceroy! That is why they preferred to accept the brilliant dictatorial but substantial Mr Jinnah as a leader. The same leaders immediately after independence started malingering and even defying Mr Jinnah and the hated UPite Prime Minister! It was Mr Jinnah's good luck that he lived only till September 1948. Liaquat, was more unlucky and the Pakistani people the unluckiest lot. The Middle class and the upper classes got a country where they could exploit or became civil servants without competition with the more competitive Hindu!



Now, we come to the more direct reasons for the failure of democracy in Pakistan. The individuals most directly responsible for the failure of democracy were the civil servants and generals. Lets compare the presence of these culprits with the Indian scenario. There were potential Ghulam Mohammads, Mohammad Alis, Sikandars and Ayubs within the ranks of the civil service and army in India also. If we compare the organisation or presence of the ruling party i.e. Congress or League with a cylinder and equate Ghulam Mohammad and Sikandars etc with germs we find that the outer wells of the cylinder or pipe of Congress were too strong for such germs to infiltrate and contaminate/poison the flow of the current of democracy in India; whereas in Pakistan the outer walls of the cylinder or pipe of Muslim League were weak and these germs penetrated it and polluted/poisoned the whole system. The problem was not the mere presence of these men, for there were similar men in India also, but their success in Pakistan and failure in India. The centre of gravity in both the cases was the ruling party i.e. the Congress and the League. The Congress succeeded in keeping the civil servant and the general in his place whereas the League failed. History was kind to Mr Jinnah that he died in 1948 and today Pakistan historians console themselves by stating that had Jinnah lived democracy would have survived in Pakistan. This assertion is not as sound as people outwardly take it on its face value. Right from independence onwards resistance developed and Mr Jinnah was defied albeit very tactfully and subtly by the provincial Chief Ministers of Sindh and Punjab. The Muslim landlords had got their piece of territory. The prime motivation to join the Muslim League had been escaping the Hindu Bania, who economically dominated both Punjab and Sindh. Democracy never was the "ideal", it was only a British import and Muslim elite had accepted it only to preserve the position of social dominance! The Muslim middle class which had thronged MAO College Aligarh and Islamia College Lahore was also content that now the hated Hindu who was a tougher opponent in the civil service examination was no longer in Lahore or Multan or Karachi! The divergence in outlook was much more wide than the ruling class in Pakistan wants the common man to know. The Hindu even before independence was dominating the civil service, the business, finance and education. Those who joined Congress had higher ideals than those who joined the League or voted for it. The deprived were in both communities Muslim and Hindu, as a matter of fact they were the vast majority. But politically, the UP Muslims before 1880s had enjoyed an unfair advantage monopolising government jobs out of proportion. The Punjabi Muslim had a different start i.e. before 1849 they were grooming under the Iron heal of Sikh rule whereas after 1849 they were slowly progressing towards a position of political influence commensurate with their population. Thus Muslim separatism developed in UP where the Muslim elite wanted to pressure the unfair advantage that they had enjoyed since Mughal times. Another Muslim separatism of a lower intensity developed in urban areas of Bombay, Calcutta and Lahore. Here the Muslim, newly rising class of lawyers and government officials felt insecure by the presence of the more prosperous Hindu, who was more educated, more cultured and more enlightened.



Thus the Muslim aspirations by 1940s were creation of a state where they would get greater opportunities as far as the middle class and more political power as far as the feudals was concerned. "Islam" "Democracy" etc were just discardable slogans to attract the idealists or to galvanise the masses.

the English East India Company that white knight in shining armour did save the Muslims of Delhi from the Marhattas in 1803 and those of Punjab and Peshawar Bannu DI Khan and Hazara in 1849.The Sikhs were the most organised military force in India and the only ones to defeat the British Company in a single battle involving more than one division in whole of Indo Pak.

Having said that it is a plain truth that both Afghanistan and Pakistan are controlled by USA through vassals like Karzai,the Paki generals and the NRO shackled PPP.After all the PPP was allowed to come into power after a USA brokered deal with USA after it entered into secret protocol with USA alongwith the army generals that it would be the best dog catcher of USA against the Islamists.Now whats happening is a staged drama with the PPP selling the idea that it has to be a minor subsidiary tactical garbage collector of USA against the anti US forces.Karzai,Gillani the PPP are all playing roles decided by USA.Karzai made ther threat with US blessings and we have a defence minister whose expertise is manufacturing shoes and in being a sycophant of generals.The army also knows that it cannot survive without USA.An independent judiciary is regarded as a threat by all including USA whose secret agreement with PPP and Musharraf guarantees non return of Iftikhar , the PPP and the army generals.The drama goes on .Nawaz Sharif appears to be the only odd man out.

Re: # 164 "Raja Ranjit singh ousted all from Peshawar."

Mr Ahmed Madani sahib you are right, but that was for a very brief moment in history, like a flash in the pan, for the interregnum of a mere few years. Soon thereafter a brave young teen aged boy killed Harri Singh, Ranjit Singh's closest buddy and most successful general on the spot near Jamrud just outside of Peshawar, which is still known as the Burj Harri Singh. On the other hand, ruler upon ruler from this neck of the woods descended upon India and established dynasties there in Delhi which lasted for hundreds of years, where insolent and impotent fools like this arjun5 or jayp (and other of their kindred spirits) got worse than mere spanking on their butts.

Having said that, it is unfortunate that Karzai, a Pashtun made the statement that he did. But then you see, he is a mere stooge, like a puppet on the string and he will only say what his paymasters wish him to say.

Re: # 158 This joke of Afghan leader. Raja Ranjit singh ousted all from Peshawar. This durand line is interbnational border and sfghans may like to push east that line along Indus river but they know these are daydreams as Now Durand line is international law.

Re: # 158 This joke of Afghan leader. Raja Ranjit singh ousted all from Peshawar. This durand line is interbnational border and sfghans may like to push east that line along Indus river but they know these are daydreams as Now Durand line is international law.

The comments at paki blogs are full of outrage and impotent rage..

Did Karzai speak on behalf of US?

Monday, June 16, 2008
Comment

By Rahimullah Yusufzai

PESHAWAR: Afghan President Hamid Karzai must have been very angry and frustrated that he put all diplomatic niceties aside and threatened to send his troops across the international border into Pakistan to combat Taliban commanders such as Baitullah Mahsud and Maulvi Omar.

His tone was bitter in the press conference that he addressed in Kabul on Sunday. The rise in Taliban attacks across Afghanistan and the setback that his forces are suffering must be weighing heavily on his mind when he spoke those words. There couldn’t be a bigger embarrassment for his beleaguered government than the jailbreak in Kandahar following a spectacular Taliban attack that freed more than 1,000 inmates. This must be one of the biggest jailbreaks in history.

President Karzai should know that sending Afghan troops across the Pak-Afghan border would constitute violation of Pakistan’s territory and resisted. Pakistan’s armed forces until now have not made any effort to stop violations of its airspace by US gunship helicopters, jet-fighters and drones but they would certainly not allow Afghan troops to intrude into Pakistani territory to hit targets.

This is the first time that Mr Karzai has hurled a threat to send his soldiers into Pakistan. Earlier, he was pleading with US-led Nato forces to take action against the bases of militants that in his view operated in Pakistan. His argument was that the Nato troops should focus on targeting Taliban hiding in Pakistan instead of launching attacks against the militants in Afghanistan. There is also this feeling that the Afghan President was speaking on behalf of the US, which has lately increased pressure on Pakistan by opposing its peace accords with Taliban militants and launching airstrikes in the tribal areas bordering Afghanistan.

One is sure President Karzai doesn’t mean to carry out his threat to send Afghan troops across the border to Pakistan. The only manner in which he can hope to do so is to convince the US and its Nato allies to undertake such a mission in Pakistan and then order some of his Afghan soldiers to accompany the Western forces. The US until now has refrained from sending its ground troops into Pakistan and has instead relied on its pilotless Predator planes to carry out airstrikes against suspected hideouts of militants in South Waziristan, North Waziristan and Bajaur. Also, it is no secret that the fledgling Afghan National Army is confronted with major military challenges at home due to the spreading Taliban insurgency and ordering it to launch strikes in another country would be unwise.

Pakistan has been insisting that its own forces would carry out operations against militants in its territory. It has resisted demands by the US that its troops be allowed to conduct operations in Pakistan. The issue has caused friction in their ties. The relationship has become uncertain following the recent US airstrikes that killed several civilians and 13 Pakistani paramilitary soldiers manning a border post in Mohmand Agency.

Mr Karzai cited the right of self-defence as the reason that gave Afghan forces the excuse to go after the Pakistani Taliban commander Baitullah Mahsud. It wasn’t clear if he meant the Afghan Taliban leader Mulla Mohammad Omar or the Pakistani Taliban spokesman Maulvi Omar when he issued a similar warning. It appears that he meant the spokesman Maulvi Omar, who like Baitullah Mahsud is a Pakistani and has admitted sending fighters across the border to Afghanistan to fight US-led coalition forces. While it is wrong on the part of these Pakistani Taliban commanders to send their men to Afghanistan to attack Afghan and Nato forces, still it doesn’t give Afghan National Army the right to cross the international border and operate in Pakistani territory. As Pakistan Army isn’t crossing the Durand Line border to enter Afghanistan and fight there, the same principle would apply to the Afghan National Army. Crossing the border by regular armies of the two neighbouring countries would complicate the situation and fuel hostility in their already uneasy relations. A better option would be to pool efforts to stop the militants infiltrating the long and porous Pak-Afghan border. It is another matter that such efforts didn’t succeed in the past. One probable reason for this is that all the armies fighting the militants and ranging from the US and Nato forces to those from Afghanistan and Pakistan have been under-estimating the strength of the resilient and resurgent Taliban.

capt clueless: we should invade afghanistan
US: really: you and what army
capt clueless: of course, the paki army..

US:mmmmkay...

US-led forces boost patrols on Pak-Afghan border

LAHORE: United States-led forces in Afghanistan have boosted their patrols along the Pak-Afghan border following reports that the inmates who fled Kandahar jail might enter Pakistan, Express News reported on Sunday. The channel, quoting Spin Boldak Afghan Commander Muhammad Naseem, reported that the Afghan Interior Ministry has ordered the Afghan forces deployed at the border to be on high alert. daily times monitor

150 Posted by HP

HP,

I think your onslaught is entirely uncalled for. Rather then matching you with the tone and tenor of your tirade I would refer to my post # 89 which would clarify my position. Yes, if Masadi, Zeemax etc. who keep calling for, wishing for and writing about the merit of Jihad then rather then them poisoning young minds I would rather they lead by example.

#134 Posted by hamidm2

“tehsin khanzeer�

Hamid my dear friend of forty years! You have every right to refer to me as khanzeer, as idiot, a hole and whatever else comes into your head. But in the process of exercising this right on Chowk, everybody else here also feels that they have earned this right as well. People with whom I have never interacted feel that they can call me names just because they see you doing it, without me pummeling you. So now I am in the unenviable position of either confronting or protecting from this onslaught which I haven’t brought upon myself. So thank you! With friends like you who needs enemies.

Karzai threatening to invade Pakistan? Gimme a break, the mayor of Kabul threatening to invade Pakistan. As his media advisor he (Karzai) should hire Borat from Kazhakstan, greatest nation on earth.

Arjun writes "Oh the irony...pakis have to use hide my ass to read the ramblings of a complete ass.. "

Thank you for the compliment, even though my posts make you look like a "complete ass" everytime you respond to them, I'd rather be a ass than a kiss-ass that kisses the a$$es of those that have enslaved him....you miserable sellout...

#154 Posted by bulleya on June 15, 2008 11:43:36 am


first bush starts threatening pakistan


when bush threatened pakiland into co-operating after 9/11, you were out selling t-shrits with paki flags and telling us how, with uncle sam's wind in pakiland's back, kashmir would now be liberated...


...i think it is about time pakistan turned the tables....it should invade afghanistan and teach all these afghanis a lesson......it should march to karzai's palace and give him a good spanking..


HAHA...need it be said "bring it on"..

p.s. when that does happen, what flag shirt should I wear?

#152 Posted by masadi on June 15, 2008 11:16:05 am

Oh the irony...pakis have to use hide my ass to read the ramblings of a complete ass..

...give someone an inch, and they try to take a mile....

first bush starts threatening pakistan.....then hamidm starts.......and now even karzai has started....

.....bush ran away from vietnam.....hamidm ran away from pakistan military academy........i am not sure whether karzia also ran away from battle......but he did run a restaurant in quetta.....which is even worse.....

...i think it is about time pakistan turned the tables....it should invade afghanistan and teach all these afghanis a lesson......it should march to karzai's palace and give him a good spanking......

(not sure if it can do anything to bush, though, even after he is retired......)......however it can tell the americans that if they want to stop taliban coming into pakistan, then it should use its own soldiers to stop them on afghanistan's side.......

after which it should go after hamidm.......and bring him back to pma and ensure he completes all his training......

Tehsin writes " This requires action on the ground with courage...."

Not before the invasion occurs, don't jump the gun you fool, let them enter the graveyard before we start digging...

BJ2, thanks for your advice but I do not post on chowk or write books keeping sales or selling them in mind. Most of what is in the books can be accessed for free at http://www.asadi.org

The site is being blocked by many ISPs in Pakistan so you might want to use a proxy http://www.hidemyass.com (no joke involved, check it out)

Okhla writes "Just how did we manage to pull out the Europeans out of their dark ages ??? ..."

I'm sure your think tank has pushed your thinking back into the dark ages but if you are able to use google, please type in "Muslim roots of the renaissance" and brush up on some history...

Hamid writes "masadi mian,

... while you are ranting and raving about the american elite, my namesake and fellow popalzai hamid karzai is threatening to attack pakistan "

Fool, he is not threatening to attack Pakistan, he is just adding the instantly mixing Afghan flavor to the upcoming US invasion, he does not represent the Afghans, he represents the stinking US elite

#149
Tehsin Sahib,

I understand that you, probably ensconced in your warm digs in Connecticut, feel that perhaps your neighbors wouldn't like your former compatriot fighting a superior US army. I also feel that you take comfort in the thought that if the folks back in Pakistan won't fight, your ass will remain unharmed in the US.

I understand that. I also understand that perhaps you don't have any family or any home left in Pakistan so it is fine for you, if Pakistani are butchered like the Iraqis are right now.

Believing that Pakistanis back home will not fight so that your ass is safe here, tells me that you are not just khanzeer as Hamid said, but you are actually a spineless khanzeer.

Being a contrarian has some value. Sometimes it is the best option for people who just don't have much to say on any issues. For an intelligent person like you, it is prudent to keep quiet and wait your turn rather than taking stupid positions and abusing a whole set of people just because you don't have the ability to face the music in the US, if things were to go bad in Pakistan.

I am just assuming that you are from Pakistan, if you are not, please accept my apology.
Thanks.

PS. This is unpleasant after just a small gathering for the Fathers day at my home. Happy Fathers day to you.

#141 Posted by masadi

“You can become whatever you want to become but don't associate your dirty name with mine�


Nahin tau nan sahi!

But don’t you think it is time for us to know who we really are. I admire the fact that you believe that you and folks like you are going to stop America and defeat them. This requires action on the ground with courage, steadfastness, determination and dedication. I am certain that you have all those qualities and not only that you also have the requisite anger and hostility that would move you from mere talk to action. Please make us proud. Stop living an existence of a ‘cyber chamoona’ and embrace your new identity as a 21st century sipah salaar. The call to lashkar has been made and all that is required of you is “Allah huma lubbaik�

masadi mian,

... while you are ranting and raving about the american elite, my namesake and fellow popalzai hamid karzai is threatening to attack pakistan ........ now tell me, would you rather live under american occupation or be pillaged, raped and plundered by the smelly unwashed afghans ? ..... take your pick

..... having said that, i can't believe mr karzai's impudence - the man and his family enjoyed my family's hospitality for many years in quetta .... namak haram ! ....... as my mamon says,"these afghans are worse than hindoos and will sell their own mother for a chicken and an ounce of majun" ..... actually this trait is common among most mohammedans ........

....... to be honest, i think an american occupation would be the best thing for pakistan ...... like iraq, we will emerge as a better and more civilized people ..... unfortunately, i don't think the american elite can be bothered to take on the burden of another 150 million ungrateful moslems and personally i would rather spend my tax money on welfare mommas .........

Highly respected, widely admired, universally loved, superbly educated, royally published MASADI Sahib of Lululand,


#139 states :

" Regarding the Muslims (not Mohammadans you miserable fool), they helped to pull Europeans out of their long, very very long, dark ages.."

How, most respected and loved Masadi Sahib, may I ask you ??

Just how did we manage to pull out the Europeans out of their dark ages ??? By inventing Phenyle, CAT Scan & MRI ??? By having spanking clean hospitals (in Lahore) that would shame Mayo clinic?? Just how, pray tell me...

Re: # 143

Masadi sahib, I hope you do not mind my making a suggestion. I make it because I think it is highly unfair how little you are getting paid for so much work on that book!

Have you considered picking small extracts from the book and posting it here? It will whet up the appetite of these chowk individuals who, as far as I know, are thirsting for knowledge – and seem to have been doing so for ever. They thirst and nobody gives them what they need - REAL knowledge!

Put up those choice nuggets and let these folks salivate for more and then…, when they are warmed up, hold back the climax!

These folks will clamor for more. They will literally fall on your feet – asking for more. “Masadi miaN, tell me more, tell me more…O what knowledge you have!�

But you will not tell them! Just when they are all juiced up – you turn around and say, “listen you agents of the elites of the West – you want more, go buy that book! Yeah!�

Of course, success is not guaranteed – most of these chowk readers are more tightwad than even the chowk owners!

Complete makkhee-choos, I tell you!

Re: # 144

(I mean - WHAT kind of evil elite would think that the thing is only worth five bucks a month!)

bajaja saab, that would be the US Elite saab

Re: # 143

Oh dear, Masadi sahib, they only give you five bucks a month for that book? If I were you, I would take it up with the publishers. So much of your work must have gone in it! I am saddened and surprised. Such exploiters! (Shaking head icon)

I mean - WHAT kind of evil elite would think that the thing is only worth five bucks a month!

BJ writes "Masadi sahib, how is that book selling?!"

In case you are insinuating that I spend all this time and effort on chowk daily to sell one or two copies of my book per month, you are sadly mistaken, my time is worth much more than the $5 in royalty I get montly on that book you are referring to...

Masadi sahib, how is that book selling?!

Tehsin the white man worshipper writes "You do that and forget Murzai I will become Masadai"

You can become whatever you want to become but don't associate your dirty name with mine. The example of Iraq and Afghanistan is there for all to see where marines behaving like pregnant women giving birth are being humiliated on every front and forced to call in air-support because the best their "courage" allows them is to kill from a distance....It surely is an Army of One, one big A-hole

Fool, why Japan, germany or Korea...

And hamidm: may your dirty lies become the rot that sets in your brain consuming it from the inside.....you're a third rate a-hole who not having the brains to understand the Quran or the morality to acknowledge his own ignorance invents BS against it....your day of reckoning is coming up fast, you 500lbs bas***d

Arjun writes "You'll win against B-1s when you can't win against your own army..the army that has lost every war it started.."

B-1s are nothing faced by a united nation that wants to defend itself from external aggressors, aggressors that are hated world over, supply spigots against which can be located. The Pakistani people have thus far not been able to defeat the Pakistan Army because it is entrenched through manipulation into the social structure and until recently had duped with American help, the people of Pakistan who considered them their friends as against the civilian democratic leadership, that has changed and the Pakistan Army is much more numerous than what those bastards are going to send across the border. Look at the Iraq example, what awaits them on this side of the border will be much worse...

Hamid writes "tehsin khanzeer,

.... if it weren't for the fact that the people of pakistan are mohammedans, i would call for the occupation of pakistan by american forces in the hope that it would turn out to be like japan, germany or korea ..... "


Fool, why Japan, germany of Korea all still occupied by US forces and allowed development for ulterior motive and in the case of Japan and Korea at the expense of everything indigeneous. Let us look at the sea of destruction (rather than these idiotic examples) on what the US does when it invades a country, its destruction of Iraq, the ruin it brought upon Vietnam, and how barbarically it firebombed Japanese cities not to mention using Atomic weapons. Regarding the Muslims (not Mohammadans you miserable fool), they helped to pull Europeans out of their long, very very long, dark ages only to be repaid by them by being dragged through deciet and manipulation and brute force to the dark ages from which they are being prevented to emerge. You should go F yourself before you write this shit

AFP adds: The unmanned drone aircraft launched the missile after coming under fire from the ground in the tribal belt bordering Afghanistan on Saturday, killing one militant, officials said.

"A drone was flying in the area of Makeen and extremists tried to hit it with a rocket-propelled grenade," a local security official told the AFP on the condition of anonymity.

"The place from where the RPG was fired was struck by a missile fired by the unmanned drone, killing one suspected militant," the official said.
////////////////From jang of today

For a long time I have argued that a jihadi seeks death, and the best way to deliver teh shehdad is at the door step through UAVs. I have said this more than five years ago, and at last teh CIA has taken note o this.

It is heartening to see that infidels are more in tune with the book than the paki muslims.

Jihad and source of death.

There is so much of hue and cry when a few paki civilians are killed in a predator attack.

One should recall that [pak army has attacked their own citizens for so long with helicopter gunships, and they have been bombed by pak airforce. Several of teh paki army men have been killed by the jihadis. Interestingly not even a single one like tahmed or zeemax cared when the paki were attacked with helicopter gunships by their own masters.
Now teh US has killed a few , all of the paki educated are concerned.

the reason for thsi hipocracy is simple.

Paki army Vs jihadi fight is an all jihadi fight, all those killed are called martyrs and all are sure of a place in heaven. This type of killings are routine religious activities are OK per the book.

To be killed by infidels is a very different matter and that si why teh zeemaxes of pakistan are angry.

Madani saab,

I do hope that the MS trining will help the pakistanis. However it is more likely that the MS training will be sued to set up jihadi web sites, to hack into indian web sites and to defrauid people through bogus web activity.

Take the case of pak technology, it used to make bombs, never to have some indigenous textile machnery manufacturing capability, a two wheeler capacity, o even a bicycle making factory.

The problem with pakistanis is in the mind set, they are full of hatred as required by TNT, whether it is towards the hindus, the US or ahmadia etc.

Nothing will help pakistan till those photos are removed from govt offices.

#130 Posted by masadi on June 14, 2008 12:00:01 pm


the people of Pakistan will hand their a$$es to them on the border as they encroach


You'll win against B-1s when you can't win against your own army..the army that has lost every war it started..

maybe you should aim a little lower..

tehsin khanzeer,

.... if it weren't for the fact that the people of pakistan are mohammedans, i would call for the occupation of pakistan by american forces in the hope that it would turn out to be like japan, germany or korea ..... moslems, like pit bulls and garden slugs, are a breed that is not easily trained or tamed ...... inspite of hatred for the animal who i cannot name, we are like very much like him in that we like to wallow in muck and slime ........ the old man of kaghan recognized one when he saw one !

#130 Posted by masadi


“the people of Pakistan will hand their a$$es to them on the border as they encroach, a fate worse than what they see in Iraq awaits them...�

Oay Maan Sudkay!

You do that and forget Murzai I will become Masadai.

In #131 read "tahmed writes "Alternatively, you could start learning something about democracy..." as

tahmed writes to hamidm "Alternatively, you could start learning something about democracy

tahmed writes "Alternatively, you could start learning something about democracy, starting with the right to free speech. (about time too, given that you live in the US, not in a military dictatorship in Pakistan!!)"

Once again this peon of the West invents an opportunity to praise USA and diss Pakistan. The US is very much a military garrison state, where military men of affairs are very much part and parcel with the corporations into what occurs both at home and abroad, why everything is seen in military terms, military budgets predominate national discretionary spending (being greater than all other programs combined!) leading to the US spending more on arms and armament than all the rest of the world combined! All this you think can happen without military men (who get scooped up by defense corporations upon retirement)being part and parcel of the US power structure that translates into matters that affect the daily life and death of the ordinary Americans? Think again fool, here it is more explicit thanks to the periodic martial laws, there it is masked by a corporatized "democracy" that sees everything in military terms.....The US is anti-democracy to the core and being in contact with that virus is why we have lost it in our nation but our people unlike those cheerful robots still have the spirit of freedom within them, and freedom does not mean the freedom to (escape through) booze and sex...

tahmed writes "Masadi: Have you considered that your perpetual anger may be the result of fleas? "

That is a worry for sobs like you, not for people like myself. Your dream of US troops overrunning this land (just like your cheerleading them into Iraq pre 2003 war, and nostalgically writing about the "benefits" of British colonization of India)will never come to be, the people of Pakistan will hand their a$$es to them on the border as they encroach, a fate worse than what they see in Iraq awaits them...

Masadi: Have you considered that your perpetual anger may be the result of fleas? You should go to a veterinarian and get yourself checked.

After removing the fleas that keep bothering you, you could also get a rabies shot while you are there.

PS: Of course you should make sure the vet does not contradict yor political views.

later..........

Hamid writes ".... now i will return to my self imposed ban .."

Good riddance to bad rubbish, take tahmed, GT, okhla and that fool TehsinA with you.....

Che writes "Masadi dude you need to start getting high and getting laid. Power Elite maa chudavey one goes another will come, its all the same shit humans won't change. "

You mean I should seek escape through distraction from problems that reduce the vast majority of humankind to animal like existance and rationalize this selfish condolence of barbarism as with "nothing changes"- nope, no can do, I still have some morality left in me despite the de-moralizing system imposed on us by these elite...

can you hear me now? good..

Accord with militants not acceptable, says US official



By Our Correspondent


WASHINGTON, June 13: The issue of June 10 air strike on a checkpost in Pakistans Mohmand tribal agency came up for discussion at a Senate hearing where a State Department official, Donald Camp, said that “Pakistan’s government must bring the frontier area under its control�.

He told a Senate Homeland Security subcommittee that the United States understood the new Islamabad government wanted to use talks with tribal leaders to secure peace.

“However, outcomes are what matter,� Mr Camp said. “An agreement that allows extremists to regroup and rearm is not acceptable.�

Carl Levin, who heads the Senate Committee on Armed Services and is expected to have a key role in a Democratic administration, demanded the right of retaliation for Nato forces deployed along the Afghan border.

He said the US forces in Afghanistan had the right to retaliate if they were attacked by militants from the Pakistani side of the border but Nato forces did not.

“It is absurd. They too should have this right,� he added.

Senator Levin, who recently returned from a trip to Afghanistan and Pakistan, said he believed Pakistan “lacks both in capability and intention� to fight the Taliban and Al Qaeda militants.

hamidm: maybe you should learn from general hosni mubarak (like zardari has done) who pressured dubai into shutting down Geo stations. Similarly, you could pressure US into shutting down Chowk servers. :-)

Alternatively, you could start learning something about democracy, starting with the right to free speech. (about time too, given that you live in the US, not in a military dictatorship in Pakistan!!)

masadi mian,

.... since chowk won't ban you, i have banned myself from chowk for the last week or so ..... i am only returning briefly to defend my friend tehsin who i have known for the last forty years and this is the first time he has said anything sensible ....... there is a lesson in this for you and senile old fools like tahmed - you can always mend your ways ........

.... now i will return to my self imposed ban until the chowk chowkidars decide to do the right thing and banish you to lululand ........

#121 Posted by CheGuevara on June 14, 2008 4:04:51 am

The power elite are keeping him from getting laid..that's the cause of all his angst..

Masadi dude you need to start getting high and getting laid. Power Elite maa chudavey one goes another will come, its all the same shit humans won't change.

In #119 read similar to the Iraq BS as

Similar to the Iraq WMD BS

GT writes "89 Posted by TehsinA:

"It is so simple:"

NO, you think all the interactors on this thread are FOOLS. No you are the fool, idiot, imperialist, peon of the west, hamidm, tahmed, jihadi, hinjew. Phew! Yes, so OK where were we..."


You, GT are a sick pervert. You agree with Tehsin even though this "simplicity" where the major facts and situation on the ground is unknown to both of you dumb f'cks is quite glaring. Of course every thug thinks that his rationalization of the barbaric evil he does (like the US is doing in Afghanistan and plans in Pakistan) is the simple truth, the facts however reveal that the US and not Pakistan is violating the border with greater frequency and more lethal consequences than anything these so-called fighters crossing the border into Afghanistan are doing, and someone sitting in those remote regions of Pakistan planning another attack on the US is just plain simple laughable, and stinks of US BS similar to the Iraq BS of what they want to do in that region after they manufacture an attack on their own soil...

If individuals are infiltrating across the border (as against national armies)

Tehsin A writes "I don’t understand the fuss about America attacking Pakistani territory..."

The same fuss as somebody attacking US territory, it is supposed to be an internationally recognized sovereign country where International Law prohibits any country from violating the air and land space of another. It individuals are infiltrating across the border, stopping them on their side of the border is the duty of Afghanistan and not Pakistan, using that as an excuse (when those same routes were very conveniently used by the CIA and the Americans for their own perversion backs during the 1980s) to escalate and do cross border raids into Pakistani territory is BS. I know tahmed and GT the major peons of the West here who push the American pov have no problems with that, but shouldn't the US/Afghan puppet regime who have illegally taken over the country worry more about the rest of the country outside of Kabul where they control shit, just yesterday a whole prison was overrun, rather than worry about the almost non-existant cross border BS they talk about for the purpose of escalation and to expand the farcial war on terror.

It is not a simple- US is angelic and every one else is a devil- scenario that you are presenting. The US jumped the ocean to attack a much weaker country after destroying it in the 1980s through a bunch of thugs and leaving it in a vacuum like condition and then helping their friends in the Pakistan Army to control it as a bullwark against Iranian influence, almost sparking a confrontation between the two. Now they jump in half heartedly to distract their own folk as a jump off point to invade Iraq, they fail miserably in Iraq after stealing from the Iraqis and their own tax payers, so now they want to use it as a jump off point into Iran for which purpose they want to escalate this BS into Pakistan and anything that fixes the problem, that pacifies the frankenstein of their own creation and creates law and order in that autonomous region that is part of Pakistan nonetheless, the US opposes not only with its rhetoric but also with facts on the ground like killing innocent women and children. Cross border raids and daily violation of our airspace occurs with greater frequency than any movement by fighters from this region that hit Nato forces, so according to your logic if they hit us through the air, then we can surely hit them using means availabe to us, think about that fool before pushing the US line like GT the hypocrite and tahmed the peon of the West...

okhla writes " I am focussed...."

Yeah right, focused on planet Zolgon in the Alpha 5489098 system, like your friends H(amid)M3P0 ard R2D(T)ahmed 32

Highly respected, widely admired, universally loved, superbly educated, the right honourable MASADI Sahib,

Unlike many others you know, I am focussed. You cannot but grant me that.....


Cheers.

later..........................

Btw, note okhla's many posts, 99% of them have my name in them, masadi said tis, masadi did that and so on and so forth, the guy is completely and totally obsessed by my posts, showing us all this his "think tank" always tanks when stumped by my posts....

To Tank (verb): meaning to fail badly....

okhla writes "The game is all about control over the oil resources. And this can, in the opinion of the think tank, be easily achieved by balkanisation...

This has to be the most absurd bs ever, the "Think Tank", okhla's think tank where the best they can come up with is an ilog which says "Fun day at Fishing", and take the ME colonial model and say the same will happen in our region, saying that smaller states like Kuwait are easily managed, while forgetting that the entire ME is being quite easily managed using through a tiny Israel. Okhla "Think Tank" where they think (stink) through their a$$e$...

Leadenwinter writes "Poor illiterate masadi .. chowk ka sub se piyara bulldog :)"

This is the best this "dog" can come up with to counter my arguments, showing how very sorry the state of his intellect is and how "illiterate" he is...

Okhla you fool, people have been talking of balkanization of Pakistan since its very inception so two years is no big deal, your post two years back was as dumb as it is now, no big revelation there, don't try to use my name to legitimize your dirty posts fool...

I feel due hard headed position of GOI on Kashmir war is enevitable just question of time.
We can learn some thin g from India to invest money in overseas oilfields. When war starts economic power matters if war goes beyond 21 days. Instead of going to King we should not ask help from King but ask them to allow investments in Saudi oil fields and development, refining and transporting. If few billion dollars invested will grew in giant true huge tree. NS Friendship with King if we can start investing in Aramco ( Arab american oii company) the returns will be astronomical as soon it will be $200/ barrels. We shoulkd talk to Iranian brothers and request them to give chance to PSO and OGDC of pakistan and oust indian companies. It not nice of Iranians to comfort and entertain enemies of pAKISTAN AND EXPECT HELP FROM pAKISTN AND SYMPATHY ID USA ATTACKS. nOW NOT SO GOOD NEWS. nOW HEARD BIG REFINERY COMING IN gUJRAT NEAR SEA COST AT jAMNAGAR , TO BE LARGEST REFINERY IN WORLD CAN PROCESS ALSO NOLIGT HEAVY SULPHUS INFESTED OILS.
Only they never thought it will be easy target for PNS fighting ships and atmoic attacks. No strategic planning.
Now interesting news.

Indian firms line up $3bn for Iran block gas



Saturday, June 14, 2008
NEW DELHI: Indian oil firms plan to invest $3 billion to develop gas fields in Iran’s Farsi block if Tehran gives the go-ahead, a source at one of the companies said, adding the block holds estimated recoverable gas reserves of 12.8 trillion cubic feet.

The Persian Gulf block is the first overseas asset for which Indian firms have been given exclusive exploration rights, with a service contract awarded to them in 2002, but permission to develop the asset has yet to be given.

Iran is drawing interest from Indian and Chinese firms that are keen to tap the world’s second-largest reserves of oil and gas and are less susceptible than many other companies to Western pressure over Tehran’s nuclear programme.

India’s state-run Oil and Natural Gas Corp and Indian Oil Corp each hold a 40 per cent participating interest in the Farsi block, while smaller outfit Oil India Ltd has the rest.

It is operated by ONGC’s overseas investment arm ONGC Videsh Ltd.

“So far we (the consortium) have invested $90 million and if we are allowed to develop the (gas) field, we would be investing around $3 billion,� the senior IOC official, who did not wish to be identified, told reporters.’

He added that the firm had submitted a gas commerciality report with Iranian authorities last December.

India, which imports nearly 70 per cent of its oil requirements and is Asia’s third-largest oil consumer, has been intensifying its efforts to boost oil production abroad to make up for stagnating domestic output.

After an ONGC team met recently with Iranian officials, the consortium is optimistic it will be awarded development rights for the block, the source said.

“ONGC officials recently had a meeting with Iranian authorities on approval of the gas commerciality report

They (ONGC) say Iran has indicated that we would be given development rights, too,� he added.

Indian firms will get a return of 35 per cent on the investment already made in the block, but rate of return for any further investment is “yet to be negotiated�, the official said.

He said the Indian firms would this month submit its commerciality report for the block’s oil, which he described as “very heavy�, similar to Venezuelan crude, with an API 14 degrees.

The block is estimated to hold more than one billion barrels oil in place reserves.

In 2006, Iran the world’s fourth largest oil exporter and which also sits atop the largest gas reserves after Russia said ONGC Videsh had found oil in Farsi.


Now it is not fashionable when people are marching mindlessly as if president goes there will rain of wheat, cheap petrol and gold pieces following from earth. All wars are for money so better watch palns of enemy and target or defeat them before they get foothold.
Good day

Jayp... please comment on this news if you can . Thanks
Small but gient steps for IT future

Microsoft trains govt school teachers



Saturday, June 14, 2008
By our correspondent

KARACHI: A certificate distribution ceremony for the first batch of government school teachers, who successfully completed their training at the Microsoft IT Academy, was held at SMB Fatima Jinnah School, Karachi, stated a press release.

The Microsoft IT Academy was established by Microsoft and Zindagi Trust at SMB Fatima Jinnah School in March this year.

The event was attended by Sindh Education Secretary Rizwan Mammon, who supports the vision of Microsoft and Zindagi Trust for the development of IT education in Pakistan.

“Microsoft is committed to helping Pakistan realise its potential by working with the Education Departments of the federal and provincial governments. It aims to collaborate with local organisations like Zindagi Trust to develop, improve and enhance the standard of IT education in the country.

“It is a great pleasure that the first batch of teachers has successfully completed its training in latest Microsoft technologies and is being awarded Microsoft training certificates,� said Microsoft Pakistan Country Manager Kamal Ahmed.
In ultimate analysis marches are worth lesss, costly and not good. Such steps are far better than marches.

Good day everybody.

Elders from Pashtun tribes in Mohmand, issued a statement late on Thursday condemning the attack as “naked aggression� and said they were ready to raise a “lashkar,� or army. “It’s the duty of the government to protect and defend the frontiers and we are ready to raise a lashkar to help our army in their cause,� the elders said.
“We are ready to fight for our homeland as we fought in Kashmir in 1948,� they said, referring to the first war between Pakistan and India, a year after their partition.

Chanting slogans of “Down with America� and “Down with Bush,� about 250 activists of an Islamic group paraded on the roads of Ghalanai, Mohmand’s main town, to protest. “We should wage jihad (Muslim holy war) to teach a lesson to America for this aggression,� imam of the main mosque of Ghalanai, Abdul Khaliq, told the crowd. The soldiers killed were manning a border post 35km northwest of Ghalanai.

///////////////////

The final convergence in the pak army - jihadi link is happening. For so long and even during the kargill invasion, pakis maintained that their army is not involved. That charade is gone now, at last the paki army and the average abdul paki are united in the jihad.

Time for iraquisation of pakistan is approaching.

Bomb out the pak army, de-nuke it, and leave it for the jihadis to fight it out. May be after ten years and go back and wipe out the remain9ing. Then there will a golden age for pakistan.

Re: # 106 arjun

such is the profane and vulgar reasoning of this interactor. Unfortunately there is no reason left in his brain and he's a slave to the cut n paste mentality.

Arjun, I have no interest in the abusive and profane interaction style that you're slightly versed in. I also have no interest in your trolling style of interaction. So until you post something mildly interesting, you have to keep waddling around looking for crumbs on your own. I ain't gonna feed ya.

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Re: # 103 arjun
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

====

Can someone please tell this duck to stop quacking?

#98 Posted by bulleya

“....isn't this exactly what OBL tells the Americans......you seem to have taken a page out of his book......�

And this is exactly why you should join OBL. Good luck and God Speed!

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And it appears that this aggression against pakistani sovereignty will not stop anytime soon. Obama has also stated that he will go into PK...and McCain? Well that's the "1000 years of war my friends"

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Agha Amin sahib,

you are right that Pakistan is not Iran. Unfortunately, we have been dependent on others for far too long...as we sow, so shall we reap.

a decade of darkness lies ahead.

..i was listening to an interview of imran khan.......

he said he went to visit a madrassah which was bombed by the americans, in which 83 people were killed by the americans.....he said, the families of 60 of the dead, showed him id cards, which showed that those 60 were under the age of 18........

.......in another american attack, a man in his 60s lost 10 members of his family......that man went and committed suicide......

........he said that man could very well have gone and killed others as a suicide bomber.......

......i think this time the americans have gone thoroughly overboard......pakistan has lost far more soldiers than any other nato country......americans have now shot and killed pakistani soldiers.......the same soldiers who are fighting on their side......

this was not a random act.......it was done knowing fully well that pakistanis and pakistani soldiers could get killed.......

......i think it is time for pakistan to withdraw support and withdraw its troops......ever since pakistan has started negotiations with the tribal regions, the number of suicide bombings in lahore, islamabad etc. have come down almost to zero, from a high of one or more a week......

the usa is totally through in afghanistan, if pakistan withdraws its support......pakistan is the only country that has had any success in this region......

TehsinA #: ...."It is an unrealistic expectation that you can go out to Jihad but then can scurry back to safety at home. You have to understand that if you go and hit other people don’t be shocked when they come and destroy you. You don’t want to listen to us then go ahead and face the music. This is your fault and you have brought it upon yourself...."

....isn't this exactly what OBL tells the Americans......you seem to have taken a page out of his book......

......if everyone follows this logic, then the whole world has had it.....

Pavo,

I agree with you one hundred percent.

Two years back I had written this (and taken a lot of flak from Masadi & co.)

"""

Zeemax,

I think you have it spot on. The game is all about control over the oil resources. And this can, in the opinion of the think tank, be easily achieved by balkanisation of the Iran-Iraq-Pakistan region. Small states with oil resources can be ``managed`` effectively (the Kuwait model). Other small & medium states without any significant oil resources can surely be relied upon to maintain a hostile environment with constant mini wars amongst themselves. These regional conflicts shall continuously threaten to spill over into and engulf the ``oil holders`` which would be ``duly protected`` by the US. For a price.

And we have seen the de-facto fracturing of Iraq. The country is slowly drifting towards a Shia Sunni (and maybe Kurd) kind of a political & geographic divide. The possibility of a split up into smaller independent states (mutually hostile) looms large in the medium range future. It is all the more important that Pakistan should ensure that its own self interests are protected in this dangerously evolving scenario.
""""

Re: # 94
"Pentagon terms June 10 strike ‘legitimate’"

Yep - pentagon is ready to fight... now what about you
"fierce fighters" from pakiland?... are you guys up for the battle?... or are you going to whine and cry about being "invaded"?...

Either way - hellfires are coming...

#89 Posted by TehsinA:

"It is so simple:"

NO, you think all the interactors on this thread are FOOLS. No you are the fool, idiot, imperialist, peon of the west, hamidm, tahmed, jihadi, hinjew. Phew! Yes, so OK where were we...

Oh! It is you? Fool, idiot, imperialist, peon of the west, hamidm, tahmed, jihadi, hinjew ... I have proved to you that you are confused and that you know nothing. And I have proved to you that I am right and that I know more than you.

So there .... things are not that simple. Do you get it now?

can you hear me now? good..

Attacks to continue, say US officials: Pentagon terms June 10 strike ‘legitimate’



By Our Correspondent


WASHINGTON, June 12: The United States has regretted the loss of life in the latest air strike in Mohmand agency but senior US officials have also indicated that this was not a knee-jerk reaction but a planned operation, which may be repeated whenever militants try to enter Afghanistan.

The Pentagon has described the June 10 attack as “legitimate� and in “self-defence� while the State Department called the deaths “regrettable� and underscored the need for better communication between forces deployed on both sides of the Afghan border.

In a report posted on its website on Thursday, the Pentagon quoted a senior US military official in Afghanistan as saying that they were running company- and battalion-sized operations in the area where 11 Pakistani soldiers were killed on Tuesday.

“There’s a lot of infiltration that goes across the border either side,� the official said. “So we run operations on our side of the border in combination with the Pakistanis on the other side.�

On Tuesday, when US forces were targeting a Pakistani military post in Mohmand agency, America’s top military official, Admiral Michael Mullen, gave his take on the situation in Fata, which partially explains why the US military responded so strongly to prevent alleged militant incursions into Afghanistan.

Admiral Mullen, chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, claimed at a gathering of defence correspondents in Washington that Al Qaeda was using Pakistan’s tribal belt for planning attacks against the United States and that Islamabad was unable to take immediate action to prevent such an attack.

“I believe fundamentally if the United States is going to get hit, it’s going to come out of the planning that the leadership in Fata is generating, their planning and direction,� the admiral said. “I’m not saying it is guaranteed it’s going to happen … but clearly we know the planning is taking place.�

A transcript of the admiral’s briefing, made available on Thursday, also quoted him as saying that peace talks between Pakistan and the insurgents were allowing fighters to cross more freely into Afghanistan.

This is so far the starkest assessment of the situation in Fata and of its implications for the United States by any senior US official.

While reporting on the admiral’s comments, the US media noted on Thursday that recently US defence officials have acknowledged a growing tension in the Pentagon over conditions in Pakistan.

They noted that the US administration has been pushing Pakistan quietly for months to accept its assistance in developing a counter-insurgency plan.

Admiral Mullen said that, as one of the first steps in that effort, the Pentagon expected to send 20 to 30 US military trainers to Pakistan. But he conceded that such moves were unlikely to produce immediate results, particularly because the new Pakistani government was beset by so many problems that it could not focus on the situation in Fata.

The admiral did not say that the United States will compensate for Pakistan’s lack of focus by ordering its own military strikes whenever there was a major militant activity in Fata, but other US officials have.

Meanwhile, the Heritage Foundation, a Washington-based conservative think-tank, warned on Thursday that the US military action in Mohmand agency “may strain� US-Pakistan relations.

“Given the constant crossing back and forth by the terrorists between countries and the lack of government control of the tribal areas in Pakistan, this type of incident does not come wholly unexpected,� the report said.

“Instead of engaging in tactical negotiations with militants to buy time, Pakistan needs to develop a strategic approach to dealing with the tribal areas that is closely coordinated with and supported by the United States.�

TehsinA: "You have to understand that if you go and hit other people don’t be shocked when they come and destroy you. "

Well said.

ijaz gul: my prayers are for the safety of yourself and the tens of thousands of Pakistanis who have joined the "Pakistan Bachao" demonstration today. Stay safe.

METAL DETECTORS STOP WORKING. STREET LIGHTS OFF.
SOMETHING COMING

Re: # 89

well said... if you don't control your tribal hordes, somebody else will...

besides, pakis in general pride themselves as "martial" people and they bill their tribals as "fierce fighters"... well, fellas, here is your war, now go fight it... you asked for it, you got it... Be brave and stop whining...

It is so simple:


I don’t understand the fuss about America attacking Pakistani territory. Haven’t we established over the last several decades that these areas are not under the control of Pakistan and that we cannot either administer law and order nor can we prevent the flow of people in and out of this area into Afghanistan or into the settled areas of Pakistan. Yes Musharraf tried his best to spin and somehow convince the world that there was no infiltration coming from these territories but we all knew the reality. We knew then and the world knows now that the snake head, the pinnacle, ground zero of Jehadi enterprise lies in these bad lands.

Once coming under pressure Musharraf tried his best through cajoling, bribing and ultimately by force to have these tribal hordes mend their evil ways, lie low till the storm passes but nothing has worked. Instead of listening to reason or the stick they took the army on with devastating consequences. The army has been defeated, even the settled areas of NWFP are on the verge of falling to the Taliban. More then that all the cities in Pakistan including Islamabad are wary of retaliatory bombings any time an operation is conducted by the army in the tribal belt.

The new democratic government has decided to extract itself from this circumstance. Instead of taking responsibility for the actions of this unruly mob it has removed itself from the middle. If they wish to attack Afghanistan or Nato, go ahead but don’t cry to us when the Daisy Cutter lands on your butt. It is an unrealistic expectation that you can go out to Jihad but then can scurry back to safety at home. You have to understand that if you go and hit other people don’t be shocked when they come and destroy you. You don’t want to listen to us then go ahead and face the music. This is your fault and you have brought it upon yourself.

Once faced with clear and present danger let us not underestimate the pragmatism of these savages. Watch how quickly they shed themselves of Osama and embrace Obama.

prophetboy doesn't do sarcasm...sarcasm requires wit..

prophetoy only does self-righteousness..

prophetboy: do you think 20+ dead paki soldiers is a good start...you know..as karma for the hundreds of thousands of bengalis killed in 71...not to mention all the people who dies because your army created the jihadis

Agha,
For one I am not old. Still sixteen at heart. LOL
Read the last few lines of my essay.
Dont draw me.
tahmed,
Yes I am there

Re: # 60 leaden
[..I've been saying this for years and no-one listens.. They're going to invade eventually...]

well, there is no need to "invade" a client-state... all they need to do is b!tch-slap you pakis to keep you in line and do the job... that's what they are doing...

#84 is for #83

#74 wrong. i dont do sarcasm. i have provided in fact also provided the reason why i say so. do you disagree?

tahmed32 #74 .. you're being sarcastic right ???

greetings ijaz gul #79: Are you planning to join the "moolk bachao" demonstrations taking place in Islamabad today? They are showing it live on aajTV, and this has to be the biggest demonstration ever in Pakistan.

who is the caesar and who is the man with lean and hungry looks.the closest resemblance is Jamshed Gulzar Kiani.Neither is Musharaf fat.Or are you referring to Zardari.I know you since 25 years but you have become philosophical in ur old age.

the situation has to be seen from the wider angle.this is a global low intensity war that will continue for 100 years and may be more.the pakistani army and its int agencies did use the pashtuns as tools.later the punjabis were also talibanised or islamised.the britishers had taken great care to keep punjab docile and in tight control.now even the punjabis are radicalised.even if these are 5 % of punjabs population its a significant number.now the tools of the int agencies have become autonomous.perhaps a portion of paki int agencies have sympathies with the radicals.there is a linkage definitely.the americans in this case targeted the pashtuns as well as the army.the FC being a largely 98 % pashtun force officered by the army.the aircrafts used and the forces were controlled by the american JTF with Headquarters in Bagram.The whole operation was deliberate.Conceived in a month long or may be longer period.Based on the premise that pakistani elite can stand any amount of kicking.as someone on chowk says this elite are the illegitimate offsprings of east india company.the danger are the non state actors.the good or the bad thing is that they will get stronger than the pakistani state within 5 to 10 years.

HP, Zee, Pavo and tahmed,
Yond Cassius has a lean and hungry look;
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
ANTONY.
Fear him not, Caesar; he's not dangerous;
He is a noble Roman and well given.
CAESAR.
Would he were fatter! But I fear him not:
Yet, if my name were liable to fear,
I do not know the man I should avoid
So soon as that spare Cassius. He reads much;
He is a great observer, and he looks
Quite through the deeds of men: he loves no plays,
As thou dost, Antony; he hears no music:
Seldom he smiles; and smiles in such a sort
As if he mock'd himself and scorn'd his spirit
That could be moved to smile at any thing.
Such men as he be never at heart's ease
Whiles they behold a greater than themselves;
And therefore are they very dangerous.

Julius Caesar Act 1, scene 2, 190–195

Read the last para of my essay
http://www.chowk.com/articles/13063

masadi: pandit-hate arjun from India is on your side, trying to mislead Pakistanis into confusing enemies and friends.

Leadenenwater: if you care for pakistan, you may wish to think why the the Pakistan-hating monkeyman of India would love to see Pakistanis see the US as the enemy.

#75 Posted by nkg on June 13, 2008 6:30:50 am

they knew they were dropping it on paki soldiers...B-1s don't just lurk around...they take a long time to get where they're going and they bring a whole lot of bombs with them...

#70 Posted by Leadenwinter on June 13, 2008 6:08:35 am


Has Pakistani life become so cheap


It became cheap when you decided to arm, train, fund and indoctrinate the jihadis and sic them on afghanistan and india...

as you sow and all that..

Re: # 70
Lead...
You are taking in different way....
Suppose, within Pakistan, some police personel accidentaly kills some innocent people, while trying to kill criminals. How will you react?
The video (I don't know, how authentic it is), clearly shows that, the bombs were dropped in some deserted areas, where few people were trying to escape attack. They were running...
Without hearing the version from the other side, drawing conclusion is very poor...
Pakistan is not enemy state of US (like Iran or Cuba)....

leadenwater: "filthy money-grubbing hands" belong to those who live on "mooft khori". Like musharraf, like zardari, the crore commanders, like the rest of the corrupt elite of Pakistan and the arab oil-rich sheikhs.

Americans are a hard working, honest people. This internet that you are using, e.g., is thanks to the hard work and enterprise of americans.

Vengat, Majum...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZDgQRZwkY8&feature=related

Vengat, Majum...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZDgQRZwkY8&feature=related

Vengat, Majum...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZDgQRZwkY8&feature=related

#69 nkg... Has Pakistani life become so cheap.. where to die accidently somehow becomes a vindication.. or what can only be described as murder.. that too at the filthy money-grubbing hands of americans..

Re: # 59
Vengat...

US has supported Pakistan, when US needed as well as Pakistan needed. US is providing good financial aid to re-build Pakistan. Some friendly casualty, and hell broke loose!!! It looks that the attack was not intended for Pak soldiers. They were accidental casualties.....

#66 masadi the liar: When writing "Without the US green light it could never have been accomplished" you imply that you know who killed benazir. If you have such information, then produce it. Or else stand proven as a shameless liar who seeks to mislead Pakistanis with respect to their enemies and friends.

And by putting this lie in bold, you dont make it right. You simply make yourself a shameless liar.

Poor illiterate masadi .. chowk ka sub se piyara bulldog :)

nkg writes "So, what do you expect from US? "

Lies, deception, excuses and the worst barbarism known to man....I expect from them what the average Iraqi butchered over baseless excuses expects from them.

In # 63 read "Now this fool is justifying the murder of Benazir by the ISI/Pak Army/US for the sake of national interest.Without the US green light it could never have been accomplished, and the US' front line man in the new power equation they are setting up with the military Zardari would never have emerged...

Re: # 59
Vengat...
I am not here to defend US actions. The point is US, Pakistan and Afghanistan needs Talibans to return to parliament instead of fighting Jihad. In that sense, it will be good for India too...

The city of Pesawar is alleged to be the capital of Talibans. US wanted to attack their vital installations, including locations within Pakistan. From US/NATO point of view, it was quite frustrating to see, Pakistan doing nothing effective to handle this problem. So, what do you expect from US?

Leadenwinter writes "I've been saying this for years and no-one listens.. They're going to invade eventually.. "

You haven't been on Chowk for years and your master whose boots you lick Musharraf was in charge those "years", and much more than Kiyani his administration using baseless excuses had handed over physical soverignity of this country to the Americans. Now this fool is justifying the murder of Benazir by the ISI/Pak Army/US for the sake of national interest. The US works moreso through the military and Kiyani is not more or less pro Western than the other thugs that get to the top of that institution. You don't understand the issues, you don't understand Pakistan's social structure, you understand even less the US meddling in our affairs when you rail against democracy knowing full well who the work with most of the time and who they punish, and finally you have absolutely no clue that they cry democracy only to salvage the Pakistan Army from the people every now and then by making it take a back seat and then punishing the civilian leadership to make the people suffer and hate what is their only salvation, a representative government....

GT writes "What you have to say and have repeated again and again is:

The US elites are behind the problems of Pakistan. They need to be defeated. People who disagree with you are idiots and peons of the west.

WE HEAR YOU MASADI, YOU NEED NOT REPEAT YOURSELF! "

Another fool in the tradition of hamidm and tahmed who stumped by my detailed posts, caricatures them based on strawmen, devoid of any context to show the sorry state of his pro-Western stand...

#46 Whether *

I've been saying this for years and no-one listens.. They're going to invade eventually.. Obama on the 8th, just a few days ago said that the US needs to take firmer steps regarding FATA. A couple of months before he was going on about an all out invasion of Pakistan in his electoral campaign.

I believe that the recent Pakistani elections, from the bringing back of Benazir upon Western insistence & indeed blackmail following the sudden Republican U-turn on the necessity for Pakistani democracy are part of a bigger picture. I also believe that the fact that General Kiyani has previously served as a close personal aide to Benazir and White House statements suggesting he would (thus?) be more sympathetic to US interests are very significant.

By late September last year people like Hasan-Askari Rizvi, Gen. Talat Masood, and Rasul Baksh Rais (the so called moderate analysts....(lackeys)) all started incessantly recommending in no uncertain terms that "a concerted American push for fair elections could produce a moderate pro-Western government". In October 2007, Kayani "described as America's new poster boy" was promoted as a full general, and made the Vice Chief of Army Staff. Benazir showed up just days later after a campaign of desperately claiming she was not opposed to US operations in the tribal areas and she would allow scientist AQ Khan to be interrogated by the US.

Perhaps its just me but this all seems somehow orchestrated along the lines of "just add water" democracy with a view to invade particularly owing to inter-party confrontations in the US. It also shows that Benazir and Pakistani democracy from a Republican standpoint at least is seen as a catalyst to US intervention.

Although they tried to kill her in October, Benazir was finally dead by the end of December. Of particular interest is that she tried to obtain security from the CIA, Scotland Yard and covertly from Mossad all of which were refused. She also sought protection from mercenary groups such as Blackwater and Armorgroup, who were refused visas.

There is a more than likely possibility that the ISI killed Benazir but that this was done in pursuit of national security considering that democracy seems preambulatory to US intervention. The reasoning being; the instability a civilian government necessarily entails and the civil strife and sectarianism which shall ensue will justify such intervention particularly where the situation in FATA deteriorates. Benazir was removed by the Military to "delay" the onset of national degeneration and stamp out behind the scenes rifts in the senior soldiery.

Nevertheless in March this year Kiyani started reshuffling the senior Army officers to make the Army more "pro-Western and pro-democracy" Following on from the Republican U-turn we're now going to be screwed by Democrats. I predict more unilateral US interventions and action in FATA in the near future and perhaps a nice, big invasion later on.

Re: # 55

nkg,

US too has contributed to lots of problems, its better we dont lose sight of that. They supported Pakistan when it suited them, did we expect them to act fair pre-Taliban or pre-globalization...

Guru writes:

"Strategic vision of dracula lawyer who was sold out due to his devillish jealousy in 1930s is now bearing the fruits. "

Manto, where are you...

Pak army is for name sake working for Allah, Bedouni pagan god. This makes poor Abdul Jawan have good erection for helpless goats. But the top echelon in the army is sold out so that it takes in different orifices loads of B2s and few crumbs of $s and meetings for eatings on Kashmir. Loads of B2s and the drones are delivered promptly to unwashed Abduls.

It is vacating all the Taliban teritory in the name of peace deal so that when B2s get in action army is safe at far away cantonements.

Strategic vision of dracula lawyer who was sold out due to his devillish jealousy in 1930s is now bearing the fruits.

I think Yankees should send more drones!! They are more effective than the PAki suicide bombers.....

Re: # 49
Vengat....
It is not so. For couple of years, USA was accusing Pakistan of not doing enough. When Taliban is chased away from Afghanisthan, they take shelter in bordering areas of Pakistan and regroup and attack in their convenient time. In such situation, you need help from neighbouring country. Can you remember similar excersize carried out jointly by Bhutan Armed forces and Indian Armed forces to destroy ULFA and other North East rebels? The amount of military expertise and hardware used by NATO and US forces are enough to destroy Taliban within couple of months, unless they get support from Iran or Pakistan and arms from China.
Destroying Apache/Chinook helicopters are not mean job. You need good missiles for that ( RPGs are not enough). Do you feel Taliban cadres have the expertise to manufacture such arms?
Using F-15 ( not F-16 or attack helicopter gunships) implies the seriousness of the activity( at least from US point of view).
Some video footage ( may not be authentic) is available in the following URL...
http://www.leakednews.com/2008/04/25/f15-500lb-bomb-drops-on-taliban.htm l
The location does not look densely populated civilian area...

Re: # 50
Pavo....
"The US strategy is to divide the state and no state actors.Start a civil war in Pakistan and then finally destroy the country.This may take 5 to 10 years but is a hard reality."

Why USA will try to destroy Pakistan? If that is the purpose, they will first go for economic sanction. Why USA will help build higher education system in Pakistan? You must be missing something. If Iran or Cuba accuses it, they have enough reason to say that.

"Most times, the fire appears to have come from units of jihadist organisations like the Lashkar-e-Taiba, the Harkat-ul-Jihad-e-Islami and Al-Badr, who often mass next to Pakistan military posts before attempting to cross the LoC.

“The firing from across the LoC has not been intense enough to support infiltration attempts,� one senior military official said, “so it has most likely come from frustrated jihadi units.�"

/////////////////

The poor pakistanis tried teh same strategy they were having against the indians in kashmir, this time they all got killed, by the yanks.

Pavo,

"The US strategy is to divide the state and no state actors.Start a civil war in Pakistan and then finally destroy the country.This may take 5 to 10 years but is a hard reality."

It is not teh US strategy, that is what pakistan has brought up on itself. Any army that abetts an armed group to fight their wars while they enjoy the riches, will have to face this. Way back in 1947 to the kargill war was fought by the jihadis nurtured by the pak army, and now they are taking on the pak army.

It is no US policy, it started long before teh afghan war.

The more relevant question is what is teh purpose of the paki check post on the afghan border. If it is not for controlling the movement of the armed groups, then they should not be there.

It is time that all check posts are removed, or bombed out. In any case, the durand line is not recognised by pakistan.

Hence, it is logical that there is a peace deal with teh jihadis and the paki troops move to a more internal border. In any case they are planning to move out of FATA and NWFP, then why should they be at teh afghan border.

Yeah, sitting ducks for the US B1 bombers.

There are some reports that the retreating jihadis were chased by teh predator and eliminated, that is teh video about, and if that is true one can shortly expect an islamabad bombing by the jihadis.

the very big diffeence between NATO and USA is that NATO forces in case of many countries regard their mission as a political one.Italy,Germany,France and many others have refused to have anything to do with border operations or with Pakistan.USA on the other hand has a Pakistan specific agenda.The Pakistani government and the Paki army is little more than a bunch of petty US officials , like vasals.The USA is seriously concerned with non state actors.They know that the Paki army generals and the politicians are hopeless.But they view the non state actors seriously.As stated the Paki government and state will stand any amount of kicking since they are masochists and emjoy BDSM.

The US strategy is to divide the state and no state actors.Start a civil war in Pakistan and then finally destroy the country.This may take 5 to 10 years but is a hard reality.

US looks like a frightened nation. Everything dark is ghost for them...LOL

Re: # 43
Mike...

How US knows the people from Afghanistan attacked in 9/11? US need to strengthen its internal sceurity, rather than looking everywhere...

http://www.dawn.com/2008/06/13/top7.htm
Pakis should be happy about this....

I think people are getting emotional and ignoring the facts. This attack was pretty much expected. Jang daily in last two months has published reports that Pakistan governament was given time till June to decide weather they are going to take action against militants or not. More serious issue is that more attacks shall be expected. US/NATO forces are expected to take infiltration seriously in coming months. It is an election issue here.

Fact is that it does not matter weather NATO did it or US. What difference it makes if NATO asked Pakistan governament permission? or if Pakistan Army members were killed or citizens? What are we going to do? Economic conditions are so grave that our Prime Minister was literally begging for help from Saudis. Since they did not replied affirmatively therefore pretty soon IMF and World Bank aide will be sought. We can not say no to NATO or US. Otherwise anticipated aide in OCtober won't be released. Pakistan defence minister has already admitted that they do not have military means to stop it. Those who are suggesting that everyone pick up guns and steel rods to defend their homeland are forgetting that Taliban tried to do the same. What happened to them? Do I have to remind this nation that how brutally people were killed in Torah Borah?

A nation as divided as ours can't even decide what to say left alone do anything. Our people in Baluchistan, Sindh, Frontier are threatening for seperation. Even Punjab has started singing Greater punjab. According to UN 50 percent of Pakistanis are underfeeding at this time. And the biggest concern in Islamabad is how to restore Judges.

Bottom line is first we are not united enough to do anything. Second we are so financilly broken that we do not have strength to do anything. Third we are not strong enough to do anything. I hope we won't forget what has happened to Palestinians. I fear that God forbid in coming days if we reached to that stage. Sometimes a nation has to take a step back like Japan and Germany did after WWII. We can choose to fight a war without any means while we are divided. However this would be a grave injustice to 170 million people. Especially, since no one has ever told us that how this has become our war? No one comes and fight with us for Kashmir. On the contrary majority of muslim countries support Inidan position on Kashmir now. If people from Pakistan will cross borders and attack other countries then they will come and attack us. Every major militant action or suicide attack in any foriegn country ultimately shows one thing in common. All those people at one time or other came from Pakistan, regarless of their nationality.

Those who support Lal Masgid incident forget that they were challenging governament authority and enforce their own laws. I am not against Shria law, but it needs to be enforced through parliment after discussion. Not through suicide bombers.

Still we time to put off our petty differencs as nation. Give each others right. Worked together for educational and financial independence. Stop interferring in other countries affairs as nation and as individual and rather focus on our well being. Once we are educated and financilly independent nation, people will respect us themselves. Nobody will attack our borders. Everybody will listen to us as they listen to India and China. US planes tried to spy in Chinese territory. Chinese knock it down. US knew they can't afford a war with China, they back off themselves.

mkamd

I was reading the coverage of this incident in the Washington Post and especially the comments from the readers (and there is a considerable number of comments). I am amazed at the number of people who blame Pakistanis for this fiasco, with a couple of individuals protesting meekly. The clear-cut message seems to be - "if you hang around with the bad guys, this sort of stuff will happen!"

Re: # 32
Nanga...
The issue is not as simple, the way you are perceiving. At one point of time (when China was not so powerful. specially in early 80s), Indo-USSR axis was more powerful in this part of Asia than US-Pakistan-China. So, Afghanisthan was battleground for both USA as well as Pakistan. It is very bad to say, Pakistan has fought US battle in Afghanisthan. Without US intervention in Afghanisthan, Pakistan would have lost entire Kashmir. At least, Chernenko (or is it Breznev) was eager to establish direct link between India and USSR.

Yesterday (from CNN-IBN), Pentagon clamed that, Coalition forced were attacked and so they have retaliated. They have even offerred proof.

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/06/11/pakistan.troops.killed /index.htm

US was alleging Pak armed forces of playing double game wrt. taliban in Pak-Afghan border. So, little reckless this time.

Najam Sethi's E d i t o r i a l




A simplistic view holds that the "war on terror is America's war" and not Pakistan’s war. In support of this contention, it is argued that there was no terrorism in Pakistan before the US invaded Afghanistan in December 2001 and compelled the Musharraf regime to abandon the Taliban regime in Kabul. This, the argument goes, provoked the Afghan Taliban to perceive Pakistan as an enemy instead of an ally and retaliate in the tribal areas and cities of Pakistan. Corollary: Pakistan should not support American forces in Afghanistan against the Taliban and it should withdraw its army from the tribal areas if it wants an end to terrorism in the country. An indignant footnote is usually appended to this: “We should not be killing our own people at America’s behest�.

This analysis is wrong on every factual count.

The Taliban in Afghanistan were allies of Pakistan without being enemies of America from 1995 to September 2001. Indeed, Islamabad had helped them capture Kabul and drive out the Northern Alliance while the US had invited them to build and operate a gas pipeline from Turkmenistan to Pakistan and beyond. All was fine until Mullah Umar invited Osama bin Laden’s Al-Qaeda network to make a base area in Afghanistan and approved the latter’s unprovoked attack on America on 9/11, 2001. This unholy alliance of the Taliban and Al-Qaeda compelled America to target Afghanistan after the Taliban refused its demand to oust Al-Qaeda from their country. Conclusion: America invaded Afghanistan after it was attacked by Afghanistan’s Al-Qaeda/Taliban on 9/11 .

At that point Pakistan had two options. It could have sided with the Taliban/Al-Qaeda and taken on America, the UN and the rest of the West, which would have been both immoral and suicidal. Or it could have withdrawn support to the Taliban and let the Kabul regime and its Al-Qaeda friends fend for themselves against America, which is what it did. However, Pakistan was dragged into the quagmire after the Taliban/Al-Qaeda abandoned resistance to America inside Afghanistan, took refuge in the tribal areas of Pakistan and made them a base area from where to regroup and launch attacks on American and allied forces in Afghanistan.

At that point, Pakistan again had two options: it could have sealed its borders and forced the fleeing Taliban/Al-Qaeda to remain inside Afghanistan and not embroil Pakistan in their war with America. Or it could have allowed them to settle in its tribal areas but stopped them from launching attacks on American forces in Afghanistan. In the event, it didn’t take the first option because it didn’t have the manpower and resources to seal its borders and it couldn’t make the second option stick because the Afghan Taliban were not only bent on attacking across the border but also successful in galvanizing local Pakistani Taliban support for their mission statement.

That is the dilemma in which Pakistan finds itself. America is constantly pressurizing Islamabad to “do more� to put down the Taliban/Al-Qaeda network inside Pakistan so that the network cannot sustain its resistance to American forces in Afghanistan. But the more the Pakistan government acts against this network, the more it opens itself to counter attack by them, including terrorism in its cities. If Pakistan were to stop doing this, it would objectively enable this network to become stronger and inflict greater wounds on the Americans in Afghanistan, thereby provoking them to take direct action against the Taliban/Al-Qaeda network in the tribal areas of Pakistan and violate its sovereignty. And why shouldn’t it do so? If someone constantly attacks you and then takes refuge in your neighbour’s compound, you are within your rights to ask your neighbour to expel your enemy or risk your wrath for protecting him. Conclusion: American strikes on Taliban/Al-Qaeda bases in Pakistan’s tribal areas are justified if Pakistan’s armed forces cannot expel them from there. By the same token, the Pakistani army’s action against local/foreign/Talibanised elements who defy the writ of the Pakistani state inside Pakistan are justified.

The argument that the Pakistani army should not kill its own people under any circumstance is nonsensical in this particular context. The Pakistani/Afghan Taliban are hurting the Pakistani state by their provocative alliance with Al-Qaeda foreigners. No state has ever had any qualms in killing its “own people� when its own people have risen up in revolt against it, whether it is Naxalism in India or Tamil separatism in Sri Lanka or Kurd nationalism in Iraq, Iran and Turkey, and so on.

The Pakistani “peace deals� with the Taliban must be seen in this context. They are doomed to fail if the Taliban/Al-Qaeda network refuses to heed the writ of the Pakistani state inside Pakistan and continues to use its territory to wage war against America in Afghanistan from Pakistani soil. The demands for “Shariatisation� of Swat etc are all red herrings. Conceding these will mean increasing loss of Pakistani sovereignty and territory to the Taliban/Al-Qaeda. This will enable them to launch more sustained attacks on Afghanistan, which will provoke greater retaliation by America in Pakistan’s borderlands. That is why the people of Pakistan and their civil-military leaders must own the war on terror for the sake of their own state’s sovereignty, stability and well-being.

People on this site forget that the Pakistan army accepts willingly millions of dollars. In short Pak army is paid by US therefore it is an mercenary force.

When you cannot control your borders and allow safe heaven to attackers, US has every right to defend by pursuing attackers. It is funny that Pak army personnel were few hundred yards away from firing positions of Taliban – they were in cahoots with Taliban

I feel bad for the Pakistani soldiers.

They die in large numbers.

They die covering for the wrong guys.

They die following the wrong guys.

They die unsung,

They die in vain.

This is not what being a soldier is all about!

Re: # 19 Zee

[All that the Pakistani top Leader (even musharraf) has to do is to come on TV, say that "Kaafiron ney Kalma-gau Musalamanon par hamla kiya hai. Ao inn ka ek saath muqabila karein" ... and people will get any weapon, even sticks and dandas, and start walking to the borders.

I believe Ayub Khan said something to the above effect in 1965.]

It must be a really long walk to the border, because those folks are still yet to arrive.

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HP:

"You are discussing policy and not something in isolation."

Since it is relative, policy can be better or worse. So I do not see why a "better response" would have no meaning given any "situation". There are several hypotheses flying around, I do not see why a comparative evaluation cannot be made.

When you say that I can do the exercise myself, of course I can. But it would be incomplete and stupid given my grasp of the issue. In any case, I have said what I had to say. I am off to the under-world.

GT,
"I would like to know what are the "better" responses and why are they "better". Plus, I would also like to know whether the "better" responses are feasible. Simple as that."

You can do this exercise all by yourself.The better response has no meaning given the situation. You are discussing policy and not something in isolation.

“The conclusion is that Pakistan is led by leaders if one may call collaborators as such, who will go to any extent to survive while its nuclear and military assets would be destroyed with partial or active cooperation of its own leaders!�

Agha, I agree with this position. We are getting ready for a betrayal of the highest order by the Pak army. It is the continuation of the betrayal in East Pakistan. But I don’t see any destruction of the nuke assets by the US.

Your theories in the two paragraphs are devoid of any rationale.
From here “This is not an isolated incident… to here.. “A force which is " Neither Here Nor There!"

This is just emotional outburst except for the first line that this is not an isolated incident. The US knows its capabilities in Pakistan. The incident was to wake up the Pak army Generals from the hibernation and test whether they are still pursuing the US objectives.

The US will not tolerate any agreement in the tribal areas but the Pak army is finding it hard to go against those agreements publicly.

Surely, the US approved it at the highest levels. It may sound bizarre but some in the Pak army including the ISI, were possibly forewarned too.

“If Saddam was destroyed on the mere suspicion that Iraq possessed Weapons of Mass Destruction why is Pakistan not a perfectly legitimate target for USA, because it is a Muslim country and posseses WMD without any doubt!�

That is rhetorical and good for TV but the reality is different. Sadam was not destroyed for WMDs. Even a simple minded political analyst can figure this out.

“Here in Pakistan we have a situation where our military leaders are overawed by just one phone call! From leaders of such a caliber little resolution or strategic insight can be expected.�

The one phone call thing is a complete drama. It is for the public consumption. This is just ridiculous to see this repeated by some who claim to know the Pak army and understand the depth of the US relations with the Pak army in the last 50 years.

#33 Posted by HP:

HP:

You are making a mountain out of a mole-hill. Forget my assumptions and throw them into the dust-bin. For the time being, and at least in pavo's board, I am not interested in figuring out what the US needs to do. Here is my point. If one is criticizing Pakistani responses to US actions, I would like to know what are the "better" responses and why are they "better". Plus, I would also like to know whether the "better" responses are feasible. Simple as that.

Masadi:

We hear you and have been hearing you for 1001 posts. Your points and perceptions are incisive, deep, knowledgeable and intelligent. What you have to say and have repeated again and again is:

The US elites are behind the problems of Pakistan. They need to be defeated. People who disagree with you are idiots and peons of the west.

WE HEAR YOU MASADI, YOU NEED NOT REPEAT YOURSELF!

#17 Posted by GT
GT,
“2. The Taliban is strong (and is gaining in power) in Pakistan. They provide support to the Taliban fighting in Afghanistan. It is in the US interest to make the Taliban less powerful in Pakistan.
3. The US wants the Pakistani government / army to help it make the Taliban less powerful in Pakistan. Otherwise it (at the least) threatens to deal with the issue directly.
4. The goals of the Taliban and the US are clear and laid out for everyone.�

Actually your assumptions are not based on the ground reality but the on some reports about the current situation.

The first thing you need to figure out what the US needs to do to win the war in Afghanistan. Is the US taking steps in that direction? The real theater is Afghanistan and not Pakistan. So your first priority should be to find out the US strategy to win in Afghanistan.

Before that show me: how the US goals are clear and laid out for everyone. Well you and I are those ‘everyone’ so what the US goals are and what is their strategy to achieve those goals.

The next part of your post is black and white positions and you need to further refine your questions based on what iyo, the US goals are.

#19 Posted by zeemax
“All that the Pakistani top Leader (even musharraf) has to do is to come on TV, say that "Kaafiron ney Kalma-gau Musalamanon par hamla kiya hai. Ao inn ka ek saath muqabila karein" ... and people will get any weapon, even sticks and dandas, and start walking to the borders.�

As I have said before, you have no clue as to what you are talking about. Pakistani public is not as stupid as you think. NO one will come out if someone goes on tv to say what you wrote. That will not even bring you out. You have to ask yourself what would motivate the Pak army to fight.

Why make such a big deal out of this small incidence? Before PakArmy took responsibility for every attack carried out by NATO. Now who attacked them? Pakistan army, as during Russians in Afghanistan, sometimes carries out operations in the name of Taliban to keep the pot boiling. One major and few others got killed this time. Just pay them Rs 280,000 or $4000 per head. Pay the generals $100,000 and the case is closed. How many at Chowk knew the name Osama ben Laden before? Not me. Who made him hero in Pakistan? The PakArmy. When army officers were questioned why they did not offer any resistance to the Bush demands, the generals would show up on TV to scare people how American weaponary is superior and how they can pin point the targets. People got scared but later when Bush couldnot get Osama 'dead or alive' he became hero. Osama was the one who stood against Americans which PakArmy surrendered. To an average Pakistani, its army is a burden and liability. The most hated organization in the country. Also to an average Pakistani at least in the tribal belt, the nukes or missiles mean nothing. These are pieces of pride for a demoralized and dishonored army so who cares if someone takes them out. Life in tribal areas is horrible. When someone gets kidnapped, the collective punishment means everyone is summoned by the state machinarey. So everyone hates the state. Pak army faciliated US drones create panic and uncertainity. Now the question is 'the British founded colonial army has totally failed the people of Pakistan in tribal regions what is next? As Shiek Mujeeb said to Bhutto, the time to live like brothers is running out fast. It appears that Bengalis just kept the Pak rifles and returned the prisoners. But there is fear if the situation continues in tribal areas for sometime the PakArmy may not even get back the dead ones.


Huzoor Qibla e Aalam, Sayyid as-Sa'adat, Mujaddid e Aazam, Faatah e Qadiyan, Ghawth al Waqt His Holiness Sayyidi wa Murshidi Nanga Pir Sahib Noorani

can you hear me now? good...

Blood and shredded uniforms at Pakistan air strike site

GORA PRAI, Pakistan, June 12 (AFP): Hours after the air strikes that destroyed a Pakistani checkpost, local tribesmen were still removing pieces of flesh from nearby trees, an AFP photographer said. The strike killed 11 Pakistani troops. Witnesses said US forces had directly targeted the border post in Mohmand region. Zaheer Khan, a clean-shaven 18-year-old civilian receiving treatment at a hospital in Peshawar city, said the coalition first attacked the Pakistani post and then dropped bombs in the populated area. “What was my crime, why did they attack me? I am not Taliban and I was not armed,� he told AFP. His uncle Mohammad Ilyas, 46, said coalition soldiers first came to the Soran Pass, which lies across the border, “on seeing them, tribesmen chased them. The jets then bombed Pakistani soldiers and attacked civilians.� “We were in our village when two Pakistani soldiers came and informed us that their post had been bombed, that their colleagues were wounded and they needed help to evacuate them,� said a 17-year-old student. Villagers rushed to help the wounded soldiers but they were attacked from the air, wounding several more people, he said from his bed in a Peshawar hospital. His relative said, “this is tyrannical, the government should retaliate. The coalition says they attacked miscreants. So are the Pakistan soldiers miscreants, why did they kill them?�

GT writes " am talking about a CLEAR policy perspective which systematically deals with political and military feasibility..."

This merely shows your ignorance regarding the situation, there is no easy-mix, microwavable formula a so-called "policy perspective" as if policies are that easy to implement with a totally distorted picture of reality and competing power interests. No it does not work like that, you have to understand the basics of the problem where one side, the powerful one constructs its own enemy, feeds it, legitimizes it for the purpose of escalation, and you want to fix this mess with a simple policy formula not knowing the hurdles put in its way, the solutions are simple, as I stated in my earlier post here and 101 earlier posts, the implementation and hurdles put in its way are the challenge that no policy perspective can take care of other than a democratic/people's government, the tumor will shrink once a democratic government can take away the legitimacy (what makes the cancer grow) of these people that the US is nurturing, and militarily cut off the US proxy supply lines. Very simple but fools who deliberately want push the US line will mask and hide it...

GT writes "Just saying that a democratic govt will be able to do so is not enough. One has to clearly show why and how. I repeat once again that I have not seen such an article (or interact) in chowk. I would be happy to see one."

Why are you lying so openly? What is not shown in that post, the why is answered and the how is also answered, you just have to read carefully and not try passing the American line regarding their BS. I explained why the democratic government would be able to do it and not the alternative with reasons that you deliberately overlook because you want to push the American pov...

Zeemax:

I know your view. Your stating repeatedly, along with detours like "... (GT) you know nothing about Pakistan ...", will not convince me that your views are congruent to those of a sizeable proportion of the Pakistanu people. Read the article you posted for me clearly. Even the Afghans are getting irritated with hot heads like you. The commander said: "These Pakistanis are too hot-blooded. They want to fight every day." Out of politeness, he did not add ... "hence they are stupid fighters".

Zeemax, I have my views too: " Some tribal/feudal leaders are playing havoc with the lives and beliefs of many Pakistanis". So there ...

Masadi:

"In this clear very clear alternative that GT knows about but denies he has read on chowk, Pakistan needs to use all means open to it to stop this cross border BS by the Americans including cutting off their proxy supply lines to the Taliban..."

I am talking about a CLEAR policy perspective which systematically deals with political and military feasibility. Just saying that a democratic govt will be able to do so is not enough. One has to clearly show why and how. I repeat once again that I have not seen such an article (or interact) in chowk. I would be happy to see one.

Stating that I am "confused" or "know nothing about Pakistan" will not get the debate anywhere. Even if the labels were to be true.

my driver was kidnapped in Kunar Province last month.On release he told me that the hideout where he was held in Afghanistan he saw at least 50 Punjabis.

As I see it this war will continue for another 100 years at least .The same as I thought in November 2003.


16 Nov 2003

AGE OF STRATEGIC ANARCHY

A.H Amin

While human history has continously oscillated between order and disorder , peace and war , the post 9/11 may be said to represent the watershed between the age of strategic stability which started from 1945 and a transition to a many decade ,perhaps century long period of strategic anarchy !

War as a sublime activity has witnessed a stark transition from rationality to madness from9/11 ! The Nero at the apex of the whole exercise is Emperor Bush the Second who more than any Al Qaeda terrorist , has made this world , a far more dangerous place for USA , primarily because of lack of knowledge and a myopic worldview which is based on a very narrow perception of history and human civilisation ! Alas Bush is a teetotaller and does not have that coup d oeil which distinguished great warlords like Winston Churchill reinforced by many pints of finest beverages of Scotland ! Here we have a scenario of a warlord , who has naieve strategic perception and is manipulated by cheap consumerist aides motivated by business interests or narrow beliefs in Christian resurgence or Zionist supremacy ! Thus the age of strategic uncertainty and anarchy !

If Field Marshal Foch's ideas on strategy are to be applied here , all anti American forces , have a grandstrategic opportunity to humble USA at a nominal cost in the entire region between Casablanca in the West till Sakhalin in the East, with additional reinforcement from sabotage missions launched in theentire tract from Los Angeles till United Kingdom ! American interests and American installations are located in such a widespread area that USA with its entire might cannot defend all of its many assets at all times ! Thus the truth in the adage that he who defends everything defends nothing ! Foch's two cardinal principles of strategy applied wisely in this scenario i.e " Economy of Force" and " Denial of freedom of manoeuvre to the enemy" can easily bring USA to a long term strategic grief ! Already some results are evident in many Quixotic Blackhawks reduced to molten metal in the entire deathland between Tikrit and Karbala !

The age of strategic anarchy may thus unfold in the following stages or phases ; i.e (1)Initial attrition of US forces in Iraq,Afghanistan and Korea (2) A period of spilling out of the conflict into new theatres by the USA in search of a centre of gravity like Iran,Syria ,Pakistan,Saudi Arabia.Something like Napoleons attack on Russia or Hitlers Case Blue which envisaged a dualoffensive towards Stalingrad and the Caucasian Oilfields (3) A period of intense attrition in the new theatres chosen by USA (4) a period of USA's exhaustion , something close to Clausewitz's concept of culmination point of a great power and begining of decline of the New Christian Roman Empire of USA (5) A period of exploitation of USA's exhaustion by other major players like Russia,China ,EU etc !

Initial attrition may last from 1 to five years ! Possibly Bush's successor Democratic or Republican may be unable to initiate a policy of disengagement ! The USA is in position of a man holding a wolf by the ears ! It may be difficult to kill this wolf , but it is fatal to leave it ! All that the anti US forces ,open or covert need to do it is to assist the wolf ,create new breeding areas for the wolves , increase their birth rate !

In the second phase of spilling out USA has to suffer greater losses both material and moral ! Greater casualties ! An attack on Iran via Pakistani Baluchistan or via Azerbaijan or via the cosatal Persian Gulf ! A Possible denuclearisation of Pakistan ! A crusade against Syria with an American general walking haughtily till the masoulem of Salahuddin Ayubi in his boots and telling the sleeping Lion of Islam like earlier French generals who occupied Syria after 1918; Salahuddin I have come back to avenge the defeat of Crusaders !



Intense attrition wouldtake place in the next third phase , with either USA destroying all its enemies or arriving at its culmination point ! A start of a period of decline , the ebb of the tide that started gaining strength from WW 1 !

The fourth phase would be either USA's victory , perhaps a Pyhrric one or an ignominous withdrawal ! The Barbarians as theUSA perceives its Islamic enemies wouldthen regroup and counter attack !

The fifth phase would be open exploitation of USA's exhaustion by China and Russia hopefully with a more resolute leader who drinks a lot of Vodka and has zeal and the killer instinct of a Peter the Great or Stalin !

The wholeprocess of these fivestages may vary from anything between 5 years to 100 years ! The stakes are high , the battle field vaster than any other battlefield in human history and the shades too many for the strategists eyeto perceive or comprehend !

The present third world war which started with 9/11 has no centre of gravity,no fixed battlle lines , it is hundred dimensional,no rules , no morality ,no boundaries and no tangible end in sight !

One thing is clear ! USA's cheap consumerist society has a great deal of military muscle but a pathetic strategic vision ! We salute the new age of Strategic anarchy !

GT,

Read this:

A Jihad Between Neighbors

Pakistan talks peace with tribal radicals but may just be pushing their fighters across the border into Afghanistan.
By Sami Yousafzai and Ron Moreau | NEWSWEEK
Jun 2, 2008 Issue

Mullah Jihad Yar didn't want the Pakistani recruits when they were assigned to his Taliban unit a month ago. He still has reservations: the Afghan likes the Pakistanis' fighting spirit, but sometimes they get on his nerves. Like now. Scanning the main Kabul-to-Kandahar highway from a brush-covered knoll in Ghazni province, Yar calls spotters he has stationed miles to the north and south on the road. If they report Americans or Afghan police approaching, the Taliban officer and his men—three Afghans and two Pakistanis on this mission—will close in for an ambush. One of the recruits, Abrar Ahmed, can hardly control his itch for combat. The 25-year-old Pakistani keeps interrupting—"Is it time to go?" With a hint of irritation, Yar tells a NEWSWEEK reporter: "These Pakistanis are too hot-blooded. They want to fight every day."

Taliban commanders say hundreds of impatient young militants like Ahmed have poured into Afghanistan from Pakistan this spring. It's impossible to pin down the numbers precisely, but Western diplomats, NATO brass and U.S. military sources all say there's been a "significant increase" in cross-border attacks and traffic since March, and it worries them. It's not just the usual spring offensive, they say. One detail is especially troublesome: the burst of insurgent activity has coincided with Pakistani government efforts to cut a peace deal with tribal militants who have tormented Pakistan with kidnappings and suicide bombings since last summer. In return for a halt to attacks within Pakistan itself, the Army has agreed to pull back from its forward positions within the tribal areas. The gates into Afghanistan have essentially been left wide open, and the Taliban's friends are running wild. "We are extremely concerned," says a senior Western diplomat in Islamabad, asking not to be named on such a delicate issue.

Islamabad claims to be dealing only with tribal elders, not with bloodthirsty Qaeda supporter Baitullah Mehsud, but everyone knows he's in charge. Over the past two years, Mehsud and his hard-liner friends have killed roughly 200 moderate tribal leaders who dared to oppose them—"which makes a very effective message to the remaining ones," the diplomat adds. While Mehsud has denied responsibility for the December 2007 assassination of former prime minister Benazir Bhutto, his network of trained suicide bombers is believed to have carried out more than 50 attacks on Pakistani military targets since last summer. In recent months Afghan security forces have intercepted dozens of intended suicide bombers from Pakistan. "This Pakistani influx is a terrible trend," says the head of Kabul's counterterrorism force, Maj. Gen. Abdul Manan Farahi, whose men have apprehended nearly 50 would-be martyrs from across the border in the past year.

Not all the detainees have been willing volunteers—or adults. In a cell at a National Security Directorate lockup in downtown Kabul, an illiterate 14-year-old Pakistani named Shakirullah says he was pressed into service by the extremists. He had been a pupil at a little religious school of 50 or so students in Jandola district, near the North-West Frontier province town of Tank. One night in early March, just before bedtime, his mullah came to the dormitory and announced that Shakirullah had successfully completed his memorization of the Qur'an. In the morning the man gave him more news: the boy had demonstrated himself ready "to join the jihad against the American infidels." There was no need to fear, Shakirullah recalls his mullah promising: if the boy became a martyr, he would soon be born again as an even better Muslim.

The man took Shakirullah by cab to Miram Shah, a border town in North Waziristan largely controlled by militants. The boy was frightened by all the long-haired, bearded gunmen he saw in the streets before the mullah packed him into another taxi with a half-dozen other passengers for the bumpy journey to the Afghan town of Khowst. As they left, Shakirullah heard his teacher phoning ahead to say the boy was coming. "I had lost the will to resist," he says. "I only wanted to go home to see my mother." Another man, an Afghan, was waiting for him in Khowst and took him to a local mosque, where the boy spent the next three nights. Then the man and another Afghan came and picked him up in a car. The boy noticed a large package on the floor in front. On March 21, Afghan police stopped the car at a roadblock and arrested all three. Shakirullah considered himself lucky after the police showed him what was in the package: an explosive device. He remains in custody, wondering whether he'll be convicted as a terrorist or released.

Of course, most Pakistanis with the Taliban are grown men who have joined willingly. Many Pakistanis fought for the Taliban when they held sway in Afghanistan, but cross-border enlistments dropped to practically zero after the U.S.-led invasion in 2001. This year the numbers have rebounded, and the pool has expanded beyond the mostly unlettered, Pashto-speaking mountaineers of the borderlands. Yar's impatient recruit Ahmed is clearly motivated by something besides rockbound tribal loyalty; he grew up in Taxila, a historic town just west of Islamabad in Punjab province. And the other Pakistani on the knoll, Sajad Shah, 25, comes from Haripur, an Urdu-speaking area in North-West Frontier province.

Shah is in a talkative mood. The tall, well-built high-school graduate, son of a farmer and shopkeeper, says he was driven to join the Taliban by news coverage of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, especially stories on the Abu Ghraib and Guantánamo Bay prison scandals, and by Qaeda and Taliban propaganda DVDs that are widely available in Pakistan. Early this year he met a roving Taliban recruiter who told him how and where he could sign up, and in early March Shah made his decision. He told his family he was going to Karachi to look for work. Instead he wrote his will, entrusted it to a friend and climbed aboard a bus to Miram Shah.

He was sent to a training camp near town where he learned to fire an AK-47 and a grenade launcher and studied basic guerrilla tactics. After two weeks the trainers lined him up with more than 100 other new graduates, ready for assignment to Taliban units inside Afghanistan. About three quarters were from the tribal areas, he says, and most of the others were from North-West Frontier province and Punjab, but a few had come from as far away as Sindh. Several of the Punjabis had some previous combat experience against Indian soldiers in Kashmir. Many of the camp's instructors had fought there, too.

Yar initially balked at the order to get some trainees from Miram Shah. He had plenty of local volunteers, Yar told his provincial commander. But Yar says his boss insisted: "It would be against Islam to prevent a believer from joining the jihad." So Yar made the trip, examined the candidates and chose Ahmed, Shah and another Pakistani. Yar says Taliban subcommanders came to the recruitment fair from as far away as Kandahar and Helmand. One of Yar's neighboring subcommanders, Sher Agha, gleefully tells NEWSWEEK he brought home 14 Pakistani fighters, including several from Punjab, bringing his unit's total strength to 50.

Just before dawn one morning in late March, Yar and his Pakistani recruits crossed the rugged, isolated border on foot, accompanied by two bodyguards. They hiked over goat trails to a pro-Taliban village a day's walk away and went on from there, sometimes by hired motorbike and sometimes on foot, for nearly a week before they reached Yar's base. Shah is clearly enjoying the adventure. "I had a good life back home," he says. "But I prefer this past month's hardships, dangers and struggle to my past 25 years."

Yar appreciates the Pakistanis' enthusiasm but says they can be a problem at times. "Some villagers don't like them," he says. "They make mistakes with the people, as they don't know the local customs and values." Punjabis who don't speak Pashto are especially prone to offend and upset the locals, he says, and they can be picky about their rations, too. They prefer black tea to the green tea local Pashtuns drink, and they crave chili-spiced foods that are not part of the local diet. Even so, Yar adds, the Pakistanis tend to be more aggressive and motivated than some of his local recruits, so their presence is a worthwhile trade-off.

Most Western analysts estimate that Pakistanis still constitute less than 20 percent of the Taliban's total fighting forces. Although the Afghan insurgents suffered heavy casualties last year in Afghanistan, Yar insists that's not why so many Pakistanis are being brought in now. Western military experts agree. "However many insurgents were killed last year—5,000, 7,000 or more—the numbers don't really matter," says a senior NATO officer who is not authorized to speak for attribution. "In a country of 32 million, including 6 million Pashtun [males] from the ages of 14 to 44, that's fertile recruiting ground."

Raw recruits from Pakistan also can't offset the Taliban's most serious losses. More than 100 midlevel Taliban commanders were killed last year, the NATO officer says—and Yar admits the insurgents suffered heavy losses of key men. He estimates that perhaps up to half the deputy commanders in Ghazni have died, seriously impairing the Taliban's command and control capability. As a result, senior Taliban chiefs have ordered their midlevel commanders not to meet in groups larger than two, and to concentrate on small-unit ambushes and on IED and suicide bombing attacks instead of more-conventional ground attacks.

Some Afghan security officials angrily accuse Islamabad of deliberately exporting its problems across the border; the Afghans note the once close ties between radicals who fought in Kashmir, for instance, and Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence agency. "A lot of these Kashmiri groups and their unemployed guys with guns have turned to the tribal areas and the Afghan border," agrees the senior Western diplomat in Islamabad. But the diplomat and other Western officials in the region tend to think the Pakistanis are not directing the radicals to turn their fire elsewhere so much as looking the other way and hoping they do. And the White House has decided to support Pakistan's fledgling democracy even if it does give more breathing space to the Taliban.

The Pakistanis deny condoning cross-border attacks, even tacitly. They say they're negotiating with the tribals from a position of strength: Mehsud's men took a beating earlier this year in their sanctuary in South Waziristan. The Pakistani military brought a group of journalists to a former Mehsud stronghold in the village of Spinkai last week. The mud-and-brick homes stand empty now, apparently abandoned in haste. The Army has dynamited and bulldozed the bazaar and several walled compounds that were identified as bomb factories and schools for suicide bombers. Mehsud's fighters are nowhere to be seen. "We have the entire Mehsud territory encircled," says Maj. Gen. Tariq Khan, the regional military commander. "Nothing moves in this area except my troops." But that's not entirely true. While the military controls the main roads to the rest of Pakistan, the Afghan border remains wide open. And the Army is preparing to "thin out" its troop presence, pulling back to the largest villages and relinquishing the countryside to Mehsud and his men.

The worst of it is that Islamabad's peace efforts are almost sure to prove useless. Previous deals with tribal militants have collapsed after no more than a few months, the most notable examples being a ceasefire with Mehsud in early 2005 and a similarly doomed attempt in North Waziristan in 2006. Each time, the Army honored its pledges to free captured militants, return their weapons and pull back its troops to neutral areas. The militants, meanwhile, seized the chance to regroup, ignoring their promises to end the flow of fighters to and from Afghanistan and to expel Qaeda Arabs and other foreign jihadists from tribal lands.

Like those deals, the one on the table now has no enforcement provisions—and this one doesn't even bother to ban cross-border attacks. "Every time we go through this drill, the main interest of the Pakistanis is to relieve themselves of being attacked by militant forces," says an experienced Western military officer in Islamabad who asks not to be named speaking so bluntly about his hosts. "They are much less concerned about the militants crossing into Afghanistan." Pakistan's soldiers and their new civilian leaders may welcome the break in the violence for now. But the jihadists across the border will be coming home someday.

(http://www.newsweek.com/id/138507/page/1)

Re: # 15

Sadna:

Could it not be that this is to pressure both civilian govt. and army that going out of course can have disastrous effects, which could lead to further split inside Pakistan?

Somehow I see that the U.S. role in Pakistan and Afghanistan border limited to keep it as the honeycomb for extremist bees, at least until Iraq is sorted out. Clearing of extremist bees from Iraq is more urgent, and where would they go? There was the news yesterday that U.S. wants 58 bases in Iraq and control over the air space etc.

Re: # 15

Sadna:

Could it not be that this is to pressure both civilian govt. and army that going out of course can have disastrous effects, which could lead to further split inside Pakistan?

Somehow I see that the U.S. role in Pakistan and Afghanistan border limited to keep it as the honeycomb for extremist bees, at least until Iraq is sorted out. Clearing of extremist bees from Iraq is more urgent, and where would they go? There was the news yesterday that U.S. wants 58 bases in Iraq and control over the air space etc.

contd ...#19... to GT,

I must clarify that the Pakistani nation includes Pakistani Taliban, and they have proven it by fighting alongside against Nato. 11 Pakistan army were killed and 9 Pakistani Taliban. What people don't realize they're the SAME people, except the Major. Even he, was perhaps Punjabi which constitutes approx 20% of Taliban! Not Pakistani Taliban but the entire Taliban!

GT writes "Frankly, I have hardly seen a clear Pakistani policy perspective on this issue in chowk or in Dawn. Actually, the only CLEAR perspective that has been put forth is of the kind that zeemax puts forth. It also seems to have some support"

This person (GT) is totally clueless about the issues on either side of the border and regarding the US. The US is not fighting to win in Afghanistan, it is fighting to prolong a farce, because of which the US and not the Taliban want to drag Pakistan in, and their agencies by fact and proxy and by granting authority are strengthing the Taliban both inside and outside Afghanistan, it is a cat and mouse game, on which BS needs to be called by Pakistan, cutting off supplies to the local Taliban and isolating them among the local population by taking away their US-granted authority, the tumor will shrink, but it can only happen through a democratic setup in Pakistan and not through the Pakistan Army whose brainchild these people are whose only "nuisance-value" is based on this farce continuing. In this clear very clear alternative that GT knows about but denies he has read on chowk, Pakistan needs to use all means open to it to stop this cross border BS by the Americans including cutting off their proxy supply lines to the Taliban...

#17/18 Posted by GT,

there is the other dominant pov which basically states ".... get rid of the Taliban on your own (i.e. do not rely on the US) ....".

There is no other view. GT, you don't know the Pakistani nation at all.

All that the Pakistani top Leader (even musharraf) has to do is to come on TV, say that "Kaafiron ney Kalma-gau Musalamanon par hamla kiya hai. Ao inn ka ek saath muqabila karein" ... and people will get any weapon, even sticks and dandas, and start walking to the borders.

I believe Ayub Khan said something to the above effect in 1965.

Continued ....

Sorry, apart from zeemax's pov there is the other dominant pov which basically states ".... get rid of the Taliban on your own (i.e. do not rely on the US) ....". Feasibility (i.e. reality), both in terms of politics and military issues, is a problem here.

Mr. Amin:

Let us look at the basics.

1. The US does not want the Taliban to win in Afghanistan.

2. The Taliban is strong (and is gaining in power) in Pakistan. They provide support to the Taliban fighting in Afghanistan. It is in the US interest to make the Taliban less powerful in Pakistan.

3. The US wants the Pakistani government / army to help it make the Taliban less powerful in Pakistan. Otherwise it (at the least) threatens to deal with the issue directly.

4. The goals of the Taliban and the US are clear and laid out for everyone.

Question to you:

What do you want Pakistan's policy to be? (I am not asking you what Pakistan's policy is, because I am quite convinced about what it is).

It is only after you specify your ideal policy, can you criticize the Pakistani govt./army. Otherwise your angry essay is neither here nor there. For example, zeemax's view is clear (right or wrong is a different matter). He wants (desires) the Pakistani government to side with the Taliban and fight the US. Do you want:

(a) The Pakistani government to side with the US and go after the Taliban.

(b) Something similar to what zeemax wants.

(c) Want the Pakistani govt. to remain neutral (if so then why do you think it is feasible).

(d) Something else (what would that be).


Frankly, I have hardly seen a clear Pakistani policy perspective on this issue in chowk or in Dawn. Actually, the only CLEAR perspective that has been put forth is of the kind that zeemax puts forth. It also seems to have some support.

WHAT USA SEEKS TO DESTROY

A.H Amin

June 2002

The three cardinal attributes of today's geopolitics are
"globalisation", "non ideological international themes" and "emphasis on
economics" rather than "ideological conflict" as the key theme in
international relations. It is another thing that below the surface
"ideology remains a key issue", "the desire to enslave smaller or weaker
states by larger or stronger states" remains the key issue and
"globalisation" is but another name of capitalism practiced at a global
scale.

The so called unipolar system also has limitations and is being
repeatedly challenged, if not conventionally, then unconventionally as
proved by events of 9/11. The famous philosopher Toffler may have
re-defined power but human nature remains the same as it was 2,500 years
ago. US Think Tanks and so called experts may advance subtle theses but
the underlying conflict is the same i.e. a West which adopted Eastern
Christianity and refashioned it as per Barbarian ideals versus an East
with a different mindset and a different set of values.

The international capitalist order was challenged by French Revolution
and the Communist Revolution in Russia but the power of the
imperialistic exploiters could not be broken. Nonetheless without USSR
military aid the Arabs could not have survived Israeli hegemonism. This
is an irrefutable historical reality.

Long ago the West's present dilemma was summed up by one of its greatest
historian Gibbon in the following words "Yet this apparent security
should not tempt us to forget that new enemies and unknown dangers may
possibly arise from some obscure people, scarcely visible in the map of
the world". In the same paragraph Gibbon cited the example of the Arabs
who had "languished in poverty and contempt" till the advent of Islam
when in Gibbon's words Islam" breathed into those same bodies the soul
of enthusiasm".

When modern US thinkers with links with US State decision making and
analytical bodies state with confidence that "ideology is no longer
fashionable" and that "international terrorism" is the key issue who are
they fooling. If this line of thinking is to be followed, whenever any
White Man or a Jewish man dies it is terrorism while whenever any non
White or Muslim dies this is casualty inflicted in sheer self defence in
the war against terrorism. A stooge is a man who was protected by USSR
and a King or Emir or a president protected by US Forces or US aid is a
perfect patriot.

Take the "Firebombing of Tokyo" on the fateful night of 9/10 March 1945.
On that night the US Airforce in the proud words of an American writer
"conducted the most destructive air raid in history". Sixteen square
miles of Tokyo were destroyed and some 83,793 Japanese civilian were
killed mostly by third degree burns while some 40,918 were injured. A US
General proudly exclaimed "It made a lot of sense to kill skilled
workers". Compare this with US position on 9/11. If for a moment we
accept that 9/11 was a great outrage in which some 3,000 were killed not
all of them skilled, what was Tokyo Raid of March 1945?

There is a subtle motivation here. An ulterior geopolitical agenda. The
West still fears ideology which it abandoned after 1945 in favour of
shameless materialism. It fears men who cannot be bought, who have no
fear for the tomorrow, who cannot be stopped by a NATO or the wide
Atlantic or wider Pacific. USSR may have been a more synthetic state but
the men motivated to die without motivated by the CIA pumped dollar via
Silent Soldiers is a more dangerous specie. Enters the Asian and African
Collaborator Regimes. Liberal Presidents, subtle Emirs, Egalitarian
Kings, all mustered like Sepoy Jahan Khan in the First World War to
fight the War against Terror. The Soviets were more naïve if less
morally defective than the American decision makers. The Americans seek
to accomplish enslavement through more sophisticated methods. Thus one
of their intellectuals states in an article that "unlike centuries past,
when war was the great arbiter, today the most interesting type of power
do not come out of the barrel of the gun".

Today this man says "there is a much bigger pay off in getting others to
want what you want". And there is no shortage of collaborators,
ambitious men who usurped power whether it was after the downfall of
Ottoman Empire with British or French money or in Egypt or Pakistan or
in Indonesia.

Somewhere deep inside the US decision makers are at a loss to admit as
to how with a 30 Billion USD intelligence budget, 13 Federal
Organisations dealing with Intelligence and some 30,000 eavesdroppers
employed by USA's National Security Agency was the Al Qaeda able to
strike. Compare 30 Billion USD per year spent since two decades with may
be 4 Billion USD lost in 9/11. If the East or the Islamic World has any
edge over the West it is in willingness to sacrifice rather than
materialism and selfishness.

What the West and particularly the USA fears is not nuclear weapons but
men motivated by ideology. Men who cannot be bought like the so many
Emirs, Kings and Military Presidents from Morocco till Pakistan.

The world has not changed from Gibbons' times. The New Barbarians as the
USA sees the Muslim radicals are more dangerous because they cannot be
bought. Because they have operational talent and strategic acumen.
Because they do not beg like Sadat for a Camp David but fight with their
limbs rather than Stingers. What the US seeks is destruction of ideology
which as per one theme presently floated in the so called prestigious
National Defence College at Islamabad is no longer fashionable.

This is the Clash of Civilisation and will continue till this world
exists or till the USA discovers a new planet where human beings can
survive and to which the Americans will migrate after all the mineral
resources of this world are exhausted and we are left to die without
water or fuel.

If this is so and if low intensity war is the only way in which the
conventionally weaker forces can defeat the conventionally stronger
forces then so be it. If extremism in thought or ideology is out of
fashion and out of favour with USA and its camp followers, so be it. If
we are in any case condemned to be sub humans in a world order dominated
by the G-7 and have no other recourse but to fight with bomb, dagger or
suicide explosive pack then so be it.

Jala kay Mashal-i-Jaan, Hum Junoon-Sifaat Chalay. Jo Ghar ko aag lagaay,
hamarey saath chalay.

The US DoD claims this is a video of the incident:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/video/2008/06/12/VI200 8061201047.html

Pavo (Agha Amin)

Putting aside the tragedy of Pakistani soldiers dyiing, your article fails to recognize the impending diseaster facing Pakistan because of the Pushtun element or Pakistani Taliban raising the ante in Afghanistan.

Agha Amin, you are spot on in pointing out that this attack does not appear to be a random incident. It doesn't seem to be a coincidence that the Rand report by Seth Jones was published just this week. If anyone has the time to read it it is here (177 pages though):
http://www.rand.org/pubs/monographs/MG595/

The interesting thing I noticed about the US media coverage of this report was that while much of the report was concerned about the Afghan army and the counterinsurgency effort in Afghanistan and only a pretty small section focused on the Pakistan army, most of the big newspaper headlines were similar to this one: "Pakistan intelligence abetting Taliban militants: US think-tank"

Now it looks like the US has released a video of the attack supposedly to clear their involvement. It looks more like a propaganda war against the Pakistan military. It looks like Pakistan is being pushed into a corner very quickly.

Even though I despise you and your ilk, it must be said that your analyses are head and shoulders above anything on Chowk or the National Press.

haha..more impotent rage..more empty threats..


Outrage as US Bombs Pakistan Border Post, Killing 11 Soldiers
Pakistan Threatens To End 'Cooperation' In War On Terror

Not to pakis..A B-1 bomber doesn't just just lurk in an area..it was called to drop bombs..lots of bombs..


By JONATHAN KARL, HABIBULLAH KHAN, and BRIAN ROSS
June 11, 2008

US F-15 jet fighters and a B-1 bomber dropped bombs on a Pakistani Frontier Corps border check point early today, killing at least 11 soldiers and setting off outrage in Pakistan.

Villagers said US and Pakistani forces opened fire on each other, a dramatic escalation in tensions between the two countries, if true.

An official Pakistani Army spokesman condemned what he called "this completely unprovoked and cowardly act," saying it threatened Pakistani's cooperation in the war against terror.

"Acts of aggression do not serve the common cause of fighting terrorism," the spokesman said in a widely distributed statement.

US military officials says the bomb attack was called in after US ground forces were "ambushed" 1,000 yards inside Afghanistan by Taliban fighters who then fled across the border to Pakistan.

The US and coalition forces did not cross the border in "hot pursuit" but US aircraft did, according to a US military statement.

#2 Posted by zeemax on June 12, 2008 1:15:30 am


After all, Musharraf didn't give in to US pressure over sending of Pakistani troops to Iraq. That fact must be taken into account.


There was no threatening phone call then...

p.s. what happened to your claim that Pakiland was squeezing america's balls?

which at the ulterior level was seen as part of the problem rather than a solution.


Wasn't that clear when pakis were the first on the NSEER special registration list even when pakis thought they were real allies in the WoT...the t-shirt with paki flag days.



Two liasion officers one a lieutenant colonel and a major from Pakistan Army are stationed at the US airbase in Bagram and as per agreement are supposed to accompany US forces in all actions in Afghanistan.


how can two liason officers accompany US forces on all ops? And surely you don't think the US forces are going to reveal anything..face it, the liaison officers are furniture in bagram..the US will never tell them anything..it'll reveal sources and methods of intelligence..



From all indicators it appears that the attack was deliberately planned and sanctioned at the highest level in USA.


Again...long on speculation...short on facts...what indicators?

pavo: have you applied Occam's razor? could it be perhaps that the paki army and ISI are still backing the taliban and other islamic militants and the US forces did what they had to do?

Tribal woman strangled for ‘spying’



By Anwarullah Khan


KHAR, June 11: A tribal woman accused by militants of spying for the United States has been killed. Her body was found on a road in Anayat Kalley area, some 8km from here, on Wednesday.

It is the first case of a woman killed for spying against the militants.

Political administration officials said the woman had been strangled to death. They said there were torture marks on the neck, but no bullet or knife wound.

/////////////////////////

from dawn of today, a typical jihadic act.

End of strategic depth, or beginning of strategic death.

The entire taliban support was based on teh paki idea of strategic depth, soem where to move to when indian troops advance. Now for teh first time, paki troops are being killed on teh afghan border due to the taliban, teh very creation of pakistan.

With the advancing US troops and constant predator attacks, teh jihadis will move to interior pakistan, already peshawar is in taliban hands. The iraquisation and de-nuking of pakistan will take place when there is more overt links between the taliban and paki army.

It is pathetic to see that no pakistani leader dared to say that pakistan will defend its borders. Any self respecting pakistani should surrender on chowk.

Finally, with the peace talks with teh jihadis, there is a realisation that teh pak army has surrendered to teh jihadis in return for no suicide attacks on them. The blowing up of a single luit general did it, and the pak army surrendered. It is pathetic to see an exchange of prisoners between teh jihadis and the pak army following the accord, at last the jihadis have the same status as the pak army, as equals.

The terms of surrender should be more humiliating to any pak army man, than teh surrender to teh indian troops in Dacca.

Pakistan was adopting teh same tactics which they have used in kashmir for decades. The pak troops are only to provide cover for teh jihadis, who infiltrate across the border, at teh guidance of teh paki army to create havoc.

The same policy was being carried out in teh afghan border, and teh US have said no to this. The predator attacks were approved by the paki army, and slowly but definitely, hot persuites also will be approved. With the economy in shambles, the pakis have no option.

Within weeks there will be major attack on the pak army, because several of the jihadis were killed as part of teh US attack. Now the pattern is established, every predator attack will be followed by a jihadi attack on th pak military.

A deliberate confrontation is in the making for contemplated escalation by the Americans, a downing of the few insects they send our way is now in order, but unfortunately the b@lls are lacking, statements will only work to salvage the Pakistan military and do nothing to change it or for it to take action that is representative of the people's emotions. Soon you will see the barbarians at the gate swarming over the land, as per tahmed's wishes, but they will be stopped by the people not by their own occupation force command at the GHQ.

IMO it is just a signal that Pak Army can't play on both sides of the US vs Taliban war, and that the US is willing to inflict casualties on Pak Army too if it does.

Pavocavalry,

Thanks for the article. I have two comments.

First is, this is the first occasion when Pakistan Army and the Pakistani Taliban fought alongside against Afghan/American troops, instead of against each other. Maluvi Umar has stated to have taken seven Afghan prisoners as well as shot down a helicopter gunship.

I take this as a sign of future rapid weakening of Pakistani support to US in Afghanistan. I have always been saying Pakistan Army alongwith the PTs together should resist USA's aims in Afghanistan. Perhaps it's an opportune time to shoot down a few predators or reconnaissance aircraft in Pakistani airspace. No heavens will fall.

Next point is re what exactly was said to Musharraf? There seems to be some confusion over that. There appears to have been no threat of sending Pakistan into stone age or anything like that. The telephone call was by Colin Powell who has denied it was said, as well as Lt.Gen. Gulzar Kiyani has said in his famous interview that Musharraf made up that part. Another conversation was between Richard Armitage and Gen Mehmood (ISI Head) who was then in NY. Armitage has denied it was said too, even though Musharraf has quoted Gen Mehmood as conveying that to him in his Line of Fire book .

Actually, what was clearly said on BOTH occasions was just "Are you with us or against us?". So there was no caving in by Musharraf. He wanted it that way and 9/11 gave him the chance.

After all, Musharraf didn't give in to US pressure over sending of Pakistani troops to Iraq. That fact must be taken into account.

Pentagon insists Pak strike legitimate

The US defence department on Thursday insisted that its air strike that killed 11 Pakistani soldiers along the Afghanistan border was a "legitimate" act after an angry Islamabad summoned the American ambassador to protest against the "unprovoked and cowardly" attack.

"I will say this: Although it is early, every indication we have at this point is that this was, indeed, a legitimate strike in defence of our forces after they came under attack," Pentagon Spokesman Geoff Morrell told reporters in Washington.

The US State Department had on Wednesday termed it as a "regrettable" incident and "a reminder that better cross-border communications between forces is vital."

"Every indication we have at this point is that the actions that were taken by US forces were in -- were legitimate, in that they were in self-defence, after US forces, operating on the border of Pakistan in Afghanistan territory, came under attack from hostile forces, and, in self-defence, they called in an air strike, which took out those forces that were attacking them," Morrell insisted.

He said the US forces will work in close coordination with the Pakistanis to find out what exactly happened and expressed the hope that the incident would not affect anti-terror cooperation between the US and Pakistan.

"We hope not. It's a vitally important relationship in an extremely dangerous part of the world. We have shared goals, and that is to take on terrorists who may be plotting, training in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas," the official said.

"And so it is incumbent upon both of us not to let an incident like this or any other interfere with that fundamental shared goal of making sure the FATA is not a refuge for terrorists who may be plotting attacks against the Pakistani government, the United States government, or any of our allies," Morrell said.

The senior official maintained that the operations along the border are done in close coordination between US forces, coalition forces and the Pakistani military.

"We are aware of some of the concerns that have been expressed by the Pakistani Army and other elements of the Pakistan government. And I can tell you that we are working with the Pakistani government to try to get to the bottom of this incident so that they have a better understanding of it, so that we have a better understanding of it," Morrell added.

As there is a new government in charge in Pakistan, the US government, including Pentagon, is "exercising a great deal of patience as we allow them the time and the space necessary to get on their feet," the official said and pressed that any negotiated settlement with the militants should be "enforceable" and not allow FATA "to become a safe haven for Al Qaeda [Images]."

"We are hopeful that the efforts that have been undertaken thus far by this new Pakistani government will be fruitful. They've made attempts or are in the midst of attempts to work out some sort of negotiated arrangement with militants in the FATA. It is our insistence, our belief, our urging, that any kind of arrangement they come to be enforceable and that the FATA not be allowed to become a safe haven for Al Qaeda," he said.