The 'One God' Religions of Revelation

baig sahib, every "civilization" has easily fallen to marauding hordes..chingis khan easily routed khwarizim and manchurian rulers of cheen, halagu had little problem in bagdad and romans also fell to skin-wearing barbarians..where is one god in any of this?

methinks in general hunter barbarians found it easy to prey on grazing animals aka civilized agrarians is the theme...one god could not save bagdad or central asian kingdoms from mongols.

Baig Bhai, your Jihad against India and Indian people does not stop.

Bhai jan, Indians have NEVER had the kind of 'One God" belief that you and other semitists firmly adhere to. Neither theologically, nor philosophically.

The 'closest' that the Indian mind came to semitic thinking was in Sikhism, and there too, differences are stark, and intellectual and moral divide totally unbridgeable.

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Since NOTHING any Indian can tell you will make any difference to you, your Jihad against Indian people and Indian heritage will continue.

Waise, as an admirer of Shakaracharya, I am particularly offended that you misrepresent him the way you do.

Bhai jan, Shankaracharya's philosophy was the very anti-thesis of your 'One-God' monotheism.

Even if you just looked up the Wikipedia, you would have understood that.

But then, you have also implied that Shankaracharya went around on horseback, massacring Buddhists.

Here is some good post for Baig and his cheer leaders if any.

If you allow Murad Baig to paint the picture of hinduism, every good thing, like different school of philosophies, different inventions before 600AD, all will be wiped out of hinduism or even india. He will ensure that not much good about Hinduism is written till 600AD, till he can pretend that hinduism got it from Islam or Christianity:-) But unfortunately, truth remains truth even if you deny it and it remains there to be discovered and re-discovered infinite times in infinite number of ways.

Now here is Murad Baig's style, confuse people by saying something that is so obvious about Islam and Christianity, say fear is what made it spread or some other slightly twisted idea then try to portray that hinduism is not so good, try to do it in "n" number of ways:-).

There is no way we can simply balm our ego and live happily. Ego can never overcome truth. This I am saying because Murad Baig always attempt to create an idea that either monotheism or some similar things were adopted by hinduism in say 1000AD and that some of it might have come from Islam. And he tries it again and again, without giving good arguments without showing much sincerity, with replying to any serious comment of yours with sincerity.

Not sure what is the depth of Murad Baig's knowledge, I normally discount clerical and biased history too much, historians that write biased history are good for nothing, the other means of knowing history are much more reliable then historians who are mostly biased. Don't know how much Murad -Baig knows when Gita or Mahabharat was written, he has neither evidence nor established scholar's support to suggest that they are not that ancient, but you will find him trying again and again to impress upon people that things may not be of that great antiquity.

Hinduism had the idea of one infinite god, from the very beginning. The idea of universe being one infinite being was first given by hindu scriptures. For hindus it was simply not possible to adopt a less perfect idea of one god when they were already cherishing the idea of one infinite being for 1000 of years prior to invention of Islam or even Christianity.

Unlike, other religions, hindus ended up creating a grand religious framework where almost anybody from a philosopher to a moron and everyone in-between was allowed to fit in.

Murad Baig may not even be knowing, that one of the hindu texts "Panchtantra", versions of which have been translated in numerous languages, reached land of Arabs (originally Persia) much before most of them knew there is anything like Islam, during the time it was still called Persia. Panchtantra reached Persia in 6th century.

Islam was invented much later and much before Islam Persia itself had started getting influenced by Hinduism. Much before Islam both persians and through them Greeks have known many of the hindu thoughts. Greeks were all praise for hindus or Brahmins, if you read whatever account they have of hindus or india.

As I said earlier while commenting against another post of Murad Baig, Budhdhism itself started as a middle-path to extreme intellectual idea of God in hinduism and extreme ritual hinduism, it made a statement saying that God is neither one, nor infinite god, nor many.

History like that of Murad-Baig's article tries to mislead people by selectively presenting idea and giving them arbitrary weights while ignoring almost anything at writer's will. I call such historians and even philosphers as clerks.
Most such history and philosophy is written to balm either the hurt ego of these clerks or of a group of people that they are writing for. In case of Murad Baig, it may be the ego that is hurt by being associated with Islam, something that can be proven to be not so good, but that still needs to be defended if not straightforwardly then in a round about way. Such round about ways of defending Islam or ego attched to it are not going to give anything to either society or to the individuals.

I feel some people in Islam are fortunate that they have been born in a religion that was good for nothing as it made them come out of bondage of religion completely. For hindus as the bondage is not so strong, so even the detachment from religion is never so complete.

"Hinduism had the idea of one infinite god, from the very beginning."

Pinku, we now have to be EXTREMELY CAREFUL before using such words anymore. Monotheists would jump on such phrases to establish fake "similarities" and ignore that Brahman is just Reality, no god/God at all. Just as some of them take take Shankaracharya's statement about the Oneness of Reality to imply that Reality is Allah!

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IMHO, it is ok to use religious words loosely among Indians since there is a certain "common knowledge" about what we are talking about. But in the presence of semitists, it may be helpful to be clearer, so no confusion arises. It is not fair to them, or to us.

It is quite likely that because of such 'carelessness' on our part, Murad bhai has actually never learnt anything, and really believes what he writes, despite having lived among Indians all his life. It may not be his fault entirely...

BTW, I do reiterate that no person can believe in the semitic tradition and understand/accept the concept of Brahman, just as no Indian can actually believe that Jehovah or Allah can be god/God. Both are likely to twist and disfigure original concepts beyond recognition, as Murad bhai consistently does with Indian concepts.

replaying #5

Eklavya, the idea is to instigate people to understand that doesn't matter what truth is, but to be in sync with truth is the only option that can keep our mind clean, everything else is self deception (if your mind has already known the truth). For this reason I don't rely on terms or words, but more on concepts. I wrote a long post and for Murad Baig it has some continuity as we have exchanged more comments earlier. The idea behind what I am accusing him off should be fairly clear to him and so should be the words I am using:-)

When I say one infinite god, he understands what infinite refers to, so it will be very difficult for Murad Baig to make it just "one-god" by removing infinite.

Also, I am not concerned about what exactly Brahma/Reality or any such idea is as per different schools of thoughts in hinduism? What I am trying to say is how early those ideas were conceived by hindus and how comprehensively and how profound those ideas are. Murad Baig's attempt is to ignore these facts. Rest is upto Murad Baig, if his mind is capable of denying what I am saying then let it be, if his mind helps him to keep his ideas after hearing mine then that is best that can happen to him. I will keep giving my ideas to him whever he gives his idea about hinduism.

Have not read car salesman's article. As usual it must be fulll of lies. Let me divert your attention to:

"Quote:
so it means the EJs dont mind lending
a helping hand to the Maoists so long as they can create more chaos internally and
weaken the Govt's reach.


You have hit the nail on the head. However, the EJs are not merely lending a helping hand. They, along with CIA, are actually the creators and financiers of Indian and Nepal Maoists. It is a Church-CIA-MI6 nexus that is working. There is no way private supporters of Binayak Sen can have so much international influence. The Free-BS campaign is being orchestrated by state agencies of US and UK at an official level, hence the resolution in Brit parliament and the 22 Nobel prize winners being rallied and every major and obscure publication from Economist and Siliconeer carrying articles in his support.

I have also long held that the Christian charity money from the West pouring into Indian churches is the financial lifeline of the Maoists of India and Nepal. The Kerala church has got 900 crores and spent only 120 crores, with the rest gone missing. Once the probe is over, I can guarantee you that it will be found that the missing 780 crore dissappeard into the jungles of Chattisgarh. No organised insurgency can run without a financial lifeline. If you have to know who are its backers, you have to find out who is signing their cheques. This Kerala church is only one church. There are many in Andhra and Tamil Nadu too recieving hundreds of crores every year. Where is all this money going? It is going straight to the Chattisgarh Maoists to buy arms and pay their cadres. The Gospel of Asia and World Vision are involved with Indian Maoists and have major operations in Orissa, Chattisgarh and Jharkhand. The Maoist cadres are being paid at the rate of Rs 2,000 per month.

One more thing I can tell people here is that the organisations sending money to India have got an inkling that UPA may be defeated in the elections and BJP may romp home. If it does, BJP is expected to take measures to regulate and discipline the NGOs and throttle their money supply. So these Christian NGOs have begun a campaign to generate finances from within India itself. This is the reason why you are seeing World Vision advts on the website of every major newspaper of India and why Oxfam is chasing Indians over the phone to donate money.
"
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4029&am p;am p;am p;am p;start=240

BTW, I do not have sympathy for any political party whether it is BJP or Kangress.

Dear Pinku

I realise that this article will put the cat among the pigeons. But I must emphasise that I am not Hindu bashing because anyone who has studied the evolution of that wonderful ocean of thought and philosophy will find so much to genuinely admire along with some dross as is inevitable in all schools of thought. I expect that many Jews Christians and Muslims will also be unhappy about the comments about the insidious nature of the `One God' idea.

Religious ideas have been so deeply imprinted on most of us that we will be upset if long revered saints, prophets, philosophers or others are reported to have human frailties. But facts and history (if they can be proved or convincingly surmised) are more relevant than sacred myths.

Like several other historians I do believe that there was some sort of `Dark Age' in India between the 7th and 12th century when the great cultural and commercial strength of India retreated into a religious shell. A single person like Shankaracharya could not have been solely responsible. I believe he was the star of a much wider movement.

Please ponder on the power of fear to make religions god fearing and we will resume the debate as the days go on.

Murad

Re: # 9
"Like several other historians I do believe that there was some sort of `Dark Age' in India between the 7th and 12th century when the great cultural and commercial strength of India retreated into a religious shell. A single person like Shankaracharya could not have been solely responsible. I believe he was the star of a much wider movement.
"
Lie! Dark period is Muslim period in Muslim ruled lands which created Hukka-Pani and Kotha culture! Period!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bh%C4%81skara_II
http://en.wikipedia.org/ wiki/Kerala_school_of_astronomy_and_mathematics

The legions of semitic desert created real dark present and future to the natives all over the world. Architects of minakshi temples and TajMahals or TejoMahals were Hindus.

If people are more interested follow links in

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryabhata

I have nothing to say on this subject since I don't think there is 'anything' to talk about. As for singling out monotheism by the author, I leave you with a quote by Gore Vidal:

"The great unmentionable evil at the centre of our culture is monotheism. From a barbaric Bronze Age text known as the Old Testament, three anti-human religions have evolved - Judaism, Christianity and Islam. These are sky-god religions. They are literally patriarchal - God is the Omnipotent Father - hence the loathing of women for 2000 years in those countries afflicted by the sky-god and his earthly male delegates."

Re: # 12

akcheema sahib

Do you agree with Gore Vidal?

Re: # 13; rf786

my views on the subject are well known on this forum unless you were away the last few months.....
......Gore Vidal is certainly an interesting character!

Re: # 14

akcheema sahib

forgive me for I have not paid much attention to what was being said due to IPL and then Eurocup, trying to find refuge in the world of sports.

This Urdooo(Baig) fellow is back with little less rotten sh**...
Da Vinci Code analyzed the menace of single THE God (HE) concept...
Certain distortions...
Every region in India is dominated by its own main god/goddess. It is easy to manage. Then sub gods/goddesses...
Sivaties don't claim Siva is THE only God, neither Vaishnavites claim Vishnu is THE only God neither Shaktas (those who perform Devi puja) Kali/Durga is only god. It has nothing to do with mediaval middle east barbarism.
Oriyas celibrate RathYatra of Lord Jagganatha and Bongs celebrate Durga Puja. They don't fight like barbarins/moslems (Shia/Sunni)...

Dark Age in India started with islamic invastion. South was still producing nice sholars...
Arybhatta II, Bhaskara II, Madhava, Parameswara in Mathematics...Apart from Discrete/Digital mathematics, Indians were masters for long time unless the Urdoo/Islamic barbarism reached Deccan. After British kicked out moslems, India have produced Ramanujam, Subrahmaniyam Chandrasekhar... Entire Ganga Valley lost its civilisation. I am not seeing any hope for revival of these places in near future.

BJ, your Ujjain,Kashi, Mithila used to produce best of the mathematical and medical brains...

Ayrveda was the worst casualty of Budhdhist/Jain philosophy, as per as surgery is concerned...Other section was destroyed by Urdooos/moslems...Kerala has preserved some amount of it.


Comment about Sankara is thoroughly stupid...

More to follow...