Restoring the Civil Rights of Ahmadis
Chowk June 16, 2008
#40 Posted by akcheema on June 17, 2008 4:18:28 am
Re: # 37; Yasser
WAS ABRAHAM LINCOLN A RACIST??
This is what he had to say on race relations in the country; yet he was the greatest "moderate" on the subject at the time. I for one don't accept your 'presentist' take on this. Also, this was from very early on in Gandhi's "political career"....I call it deliberately distorting the truth.
and what would you call Jinnah? was he such a champion of the rights of the common man as you make him out to be? or was he one of the worst elitists ever?
Let's see what Lincoln said for starters:
"What I would most desire would be the separation of the white and black races."
— Spoken at Springfield, Illinois on July 17th, 1858; from ABRAHAM LINCOLN: COMPLETE WORKS, 1894, Vol. 1, page 273
"See our present condition---the country engaged in war! Our White men cutting one another's throats! And then consider what we know to be the truth. But for your race among us there could not be war, although many men engaged on either side do not care for you one way or another.
"Why should the people of your race be colonized, and where? Why should they leave this country? This is, perhaps, the first question for proper consideration. You and we are different races. We have between us a broader difference than exists between almost any other two races. Whether it is right or wrong I need not discuss, but this physical difference is a great disadvantage to us both, as I think your race suffer very greatly, many of them by living among us, while ours suffer from your presence. In a word, we suffer on each side. If this be admitted, it affords a reason at least why we should be separated. It is better for both, therefore, to be separated."
— Spoken at the White House to a group of black community leaders, August 14th, 1862, from COLLECTED WORKS OF ABRAHAM LINCOLN, Vol 5, page 371
"I will say, then, that I AM NOT NOR HAVE EVER BEEN in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the black and white races---that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters
or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with White people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the White and black races which will ever FORBID the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together, there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I, as much as any other man, am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the White race."
— 4th Lincoln-Douglas debate, September 18th, 1858; COLLECTED WORKS Vol. 3, pp. 145-146
WAS ABRAHAM LINCOLN A RACIST??
This is what he had to say on race relations in the country; yet he was the greatest "moderate" on the subject at the time. I for one don't accept your 'presentist' take on this. Also, this was from very early on in Gandhi's "political career"....I call it deliberately distorting the truth.
and what would you call Jinnah? was he such a champion of the rights of the common man as you make him out to be? or was he one of the worst elitists ever?
Let's see what Lincoln said for starters:
"What I would most desire would be the separation of the white and black races."
— Spoken at Springfield, Illinois on July 17th, 1858; from ABRAHAM LINCOLN: COMPLETE WORKS, 1894, Vol. 1, page 273
"See our present condition---the country engaged in war! Our White men cutting one another's throats! And then consider what we know to be the truth. But for your race among us there could not be war, although many men engaged on either side do not care for you one way or another.
"Why should the people of your race be colonized, and where? Why should they leave this country? This is, perhaps, the first question for proper consideration. You and we are different races. We have between us a broader difference than exists between almost any other two races. Whether it is right or wrong I need not discuss, but this physical difference is a great disadvantage to us both, as I think your race suffer very greatly, many of them by living among us, while ours suffer from your presence. In a word, we suffer on each side. If this be admitted, it affords a reason at least why we should be separated. It is better for both, therefore, to be separated."
— Spoken at the White House to a group of black community leaders, August 14th, 1862, from COLLECTED WORKS OF ABRAHAM LINCOLN, Vol 5, page 371
"I will say, then, that I AM NOT NOR HAVE EVER BEEN in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the black and white races---that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters
or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with White people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the White and black races which will ever FORBID the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together, there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I, as much as any other man, am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the White race."
— 4th Lincoln-Douglas debate, September 18th, 1858; COLLECTED WORKS Vol. 3, pp. 145-146
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#39 Posted by _arjun5 on June 17, 2008 4:13:21 am
If the whole "declaring ahmadis non muslims" comes from Gandhi's ideas, why haven't ahmadis been declared non-muslims in india?
seems to me that pakiland had adopted more of gandhis ideals..
like manto tells us
amhadis declared non-muslims: gandhi's fault
islamic terrorists blowing shit up: gandhi's fault
seems to me that pakiland had adopted more of gandhis ideals..
like manto tells us
amhadis declared non-muslims: gandhi's fault
islamic terrorists blowing shit up: gandhi's fault
#38 Posted by MantoLives on June 17, 2008 4:09:23 am
Re: # 36
Working with the oppressor is to go from town to town recruiting Soldiers like Gandhi did ... for which he earned the title Qaiser-e-Hind.
Working with the oppressor is to go from town to town recruiting Soldiers like Gandhi did ... for which he earned the title Qaiser-e-Hind.
#37 Posted by MantoLives on June 17, 2008 4:07:12 am
"The constant need to demean others"
How about calling black people subhuman for being black like Adolf Hitler's Indian Twin Gandhi BC did?
On What Gandhi wanted
The last week has been very busy. We have not had a moment's leisure.
We saw Mr. Theodore Morison of Aligarh and the well-known Mr. Stead of
the Review of Reviews. Mr. Stead has boldly come out to give us all
the help he can. He was therefore requested to write to the same Boer
leaders that they should not consider Indians as being on the same
level as Kaffirs
Indian Opinion, 15-12-1906, CWOMG Vol. 6, pg 183
private delete
October 4, 2005
On What Gandhi wanted (3)
CLASSIFICATION OF ASIATICS WITH NATIVES
The cell was situated in the Native quarters and we were housed in one
that was labeled 'For Coloured Debtors'. It was this experience for
which we were perhaps all unprepared. We had fondly imagined that we
would have suitable quarters apart from the Natives. As it was,
perhaps, just as well that we were classed with Natives. We would now
be able to study the life of Native prisoners, their customs and
manners. ...Degradation underlay the classing of Indians with natives.
The Asiatic Act seemed to me to be the summit of our degradation. It
did appear to me, as I think it would appear to any unprejudiced
reader, that it would have been simple humanity if we were given
special quarters. ...the Governor of the gaol tried to make us as
comfortable as he could...But he was powerless to accommodate us
beyond the horrible din and the yells of the Native prisoners
throughout the day and partly at night also. Many of the native
prisoners are only one degree removed from the animal and often
created rows and fought amongst themselves in their cells.
Indian Opinion 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 120
Apart from whether or not this implies degradation, I must say it is
rather dangerous. Kaffirs are as a rule uncivilized -- the convicts
even more so. They are troublesome, very dirty, and live almost like
animals. Each ward contains nearly 50 to 60 of them. They often
started rows and fought among themselves. The reader can easily
imagine the plight of the poor Indian thrown into such company
Indian Opinion, 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 135
private delete
October 4, 2005
On What Gandhi wanted (2)
INDIANS ON PAR WITH KAFFIRS
There, our garments were stamped with the letter 'N', which meant that
we were being classed with the Natives. We were all prepared for
hardships, but not quite for this experience. We could understand not
being classed with the whites, but to be placed on the same level with
the Natives seemed too much to put up with. I then felt that Indians
had launched on passive resistance too soon. Here was further proof
that the obnoxious law was intended to emasculate the Indians.
It was, however, as well that we were classified with the Natives. It
was a welcome opportunity to study the treatment meted out to the
Natives, their conditions [of life in the gaol] and their habits.
...We were given a separate ward because we were sentenced to simple
imprisonment; otherwise we would have been in the same ward [with the
Kaffirs]. Indians sentenced to hard labour are in fact kept with the
Kaffirs.
Apart from whether or not this implies degradation, I must say it is
rather dangerous. Kaffirs are as a rule uncivilized -- the convicts
even more so. They are troublesome, very dirty, and live almost like
animals. Each ward contains nearly 50 to 60 of them. They often
started rows and fought among themselves. The reader can easily
imagine the plight of the poor Indian thrown into such company
Indian Opinion, 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 135
private delete
October 4, 2005
On What Gandhi wanted (1)
I have, though, resolved in my mind on an agitation to ensure that
Indian prisoners are not lodged with Kaffirs or others. When I arrived
at the place, there were about 15 Indian prisoners. Except for three,
all of them were satyagrahis. The three were charged with other
offences. These prisoners were generally lodged with kaffirs. When I
reached there, the chief warder issued an order that all of us should
be lodged in a separate room. I observed with regret that some Indians
were happy to sleep in the same room as the Kaffirs, the reason being
that they hoped there for a secret supply of tobacco, etc. This is a
matter of shame to us. We may entertain no aversion to the Kaffirs,
but we cannot ignore the fact that there is no common ground between
them and us in the daily affairs of life. Moreover, those who wish to
sleep in the same room have ulterior motives for doing so.
Obviously, we ought to abandon such notions if we want to make progress.
Indian Opinion, 6-1-1909, CWOMG Vol. 9, pg 149
On What Gandhi wanted (9)
Gandhi's disdain for black people continues:
It is one thing to register Natives who would not work, and whom it is
very difficult to find out if they absent themselves, but it is
another thing and most insulting to expect decent, hard-working, and
respectable Indians, whose only fault is that they work too much, to
have themselves registered
What is a Coolie, Indian Opinion 2151904, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 193
CWOMG: Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi
private delete
October 4, 2005
On What Gandhi wanted (8)
The whole affair is as much a disgrace to the Indian community as it
is to the British Empire. The British rulers take us to be so lowly
and ignorant that they assume that, like the Kaffirs who can be
pleased with toys and pins, we can also be fobbed off with trinkets
Indian Opinion, 29-2-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 105
CWOMG: Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi
private delete
October 4, 2005
On What Gandhi wanted (7)
More on SEPARATE AND UNEQUAL theory of Gandhiji...
His Excellency has, moreover, justified the definition of 'coloured
person' on the ground that it is a legacy from the old Government. But
British Indians object to the definition for that very reason. Their
position is this. The ordinances will not in practice apply to them.
The Boer Government insulted the Indians by classing them with the
Kaffirs. Now there is no occasion to perpetuate a needless insult
Indians in the O.R.C, Indian Opinion, 6-1-1906, CWOMG, Vol. 5, pg 177-178
Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi: CWOMG
private delete
October 4, 2005
On What Gandhi wanted (6)
More on SEPARATE AND UNEQUAL theory of Gandhiji...
His Excellency has, moreover, justified the definition of 'coloured
person' on the ground that it is a legacy from the old Government. But
British Indians object to the definition for that very reason. Their
position is this. The ordinances will not in practice apply to them.
The Boer Government insulted the Indians by classing them with the
Kaffirs. Now there is no occasion to perpetuate a needless insult
Indians in the O.R.C, Indian Opinion, 6-1-1906, CWOMG, Vol. 5, pg 177-178
Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi: CWOMG
private delete
October 4, 2005
On What Gandhi wanted (5)
It reduces British Indians to a status lower than that of the
aboriginal races of South Africa and the Coloured people.
Indian Opinion 15-9-1906, CWOMG Vol. 5, pg 419-423
On What Gandhi wanted (14)
On Minority White rule in South Africa:
We, therefore, have no hesitation in agreeing with the view that in
the long run assisted Asiatic immigration into the Transvaal would be
disastrous to the white settlement. People will gradually accommodate
themselves to relying upon Asiatic labour, and any White immigration
of the special class required in the Transvaal on a large scale will
be practically impossible. It would be equally unfair to the Natives
of the soil. It is all very well to say that they would not work, and
that, if the Asiatics were introduced, that would be a stimulus to
work; but human nature is the same everywhere, and once Asiatic labour
is resorted to, there would not be a sustained effort to induce the
Natives to work under what would otherwise be, after all, gentle
compulsion. There would be then less talk about taxing the Natives and
so forth. Natives themselves, used as they are to a very simple mode
of life, will always be able to command enough wages to meet their
wants; and the result will be putting back their progress for an
indefinite length of time. We have used the words 'gentle compulsion'
in the best sense of the term; we mean compulsion of the same kind
that a parent exercises over children
Indian Opinion, 9-7-1903, CWOMG Vol. 3, pg 359-360
CWOMG: COLLECTED WORKS OF MAHATMA GANDHI.
private delete
October 4, 2005
On What Gandhi wanted (13)
On Minority White rule in South Africa:
We, therefore, have no hesitation in agreeing with the view that in
the long run assisted Asiatic immigration into the Transvaal would be
disastrous to the white settlement. People will gradually accommodate
themselves to relying upon Asiatic labour, and any White immigration
of the special class required in the Transvaal on a large scale will
be practically impossible. It would be equally unfair to the Natives
of the soil. It is all very well to say that they would not work, and
that, if the Asiatics were introduced, that would be a stimulus to
work; but human nature is the same everywhere, and once Asiatic labour
is resorted to, there would not be a sustained effort to induce the
Natives to work under what would otherwise be, after all, gentle
compulsion. There would be then less talk about taxing the Natives and
so forth. Natives themselves, used as they are to a very simple mode
of life, will always be able to command enough wages to meet their
wants; and the result will be putting back their progress for an
indefinite length of time. We have used the words 'gentle compulsion'
in the best sense of the term; we mean compulsion of the same kind
that a parent exercises over children
For Beej who is apparently BLIND: Indian Opinion, 9-7-1903, CWOMG Vol.
3, pg 359-360
CWOMG: COLLECTED WORKS OF MAHATMA GANDHI.
private delete
October 4, 2005
On What Gandhi wanted (12)
What the British Indians pray for is very little. They ask for no
political power. They admit the British race should be the dominant
race in South Africa. All they ask for is freedom for those that are
now settled and those that may be allowed to come in future to trade,
to move about, and to hold landed property without any hindrance save
the ordinary legal requirements
Petition to Natal Legislature, CWOMG, vol3, pg 330
private delete
October 4, 2005
On What Gandhi wanted (11)
Ah... and they said Plessey Vs Ferguson was bad...
Well here is Gandhi with his theory of "Separate and Unequal"
...The petition dwells upon "the co-mingling of the Coloured and white
races". May we inform the members of the conference that, so far as
the British Indians are concerned, such a thing is practically
unknown? If there is one thing, which the Indian cherishes more than
any other, it is the purity of type. Why bring such a question into
the controversy at all?
The Transvaal Chambers and British Indians, Indian Opinion 24-12-03,
CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 89
private delete
October 4, 2005
On What Gandhi wanted (10)
More on Gandhi's theory of "separate and unequal"
Why, of all places in Johannesburg, the Indian Location should be
chosen for dumping down all the Kaffirs of the town passes my
comprehension. ...Of course, under my suggestion, The Town Council
must withdraw the Kaffirs from the Location. About this mixing of
Kaffirs with the Indians, I must confess I feel most strongly
Indian Opinion, 10-4-04, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 130-131
Other Gandhian Statements that we need to consider...
'Sanghtan is a really sound movement. Every community is entitled,
indeed bound to organize itself as a seperate entity' : Mahatma Gandhi
(Young India January 6th 1927)
A translation of a Gujrati essay he wrote in 1922 for Niya Jawan
(1) I believe that if Hindu Society has been able to stand it is
because it is founded on the caste system.
(2) The seeds of swaraj are to be found in the caste system. Different
castes are like different sections of miliary division. Each division
is working for the good of the whole....
(3) A community which can create the caste system must be said to
possess unique power of organization.
(4) Caste has a ready made means for spreading primary education. Each
caste can take the responsibility for the education of the children of
the caste. Caste has a political basis. It can work as an electorate
for a representative body. Caste can perform judicial functions by
electing persons to act as judges to decide disputes among members of
the same caste. With castes it is easy to raise a defense force by
requiring each caste to raise a brigade.
(5) I believe that interdining or intermarriage are not necessary for
promoting national unity. That dining together creates friendship is
contrary to experience. If this was true there would have been no war
in Europe.... Taking food is as dirty an act as answering the call of
nature. The only difference is that after answering call of nature we
get peace while after eating food we get discomfort. Just as we
perform the act of answering the call of nature in seclusion so also
the act of taking food must also be done in seclusion.
(6) In India children of brothers do not intermarry. Do they cease to
love because they do not intermarry? Among the Vaishnavas many women
are so orthodox that they will not eat with members of the family nor
will they drink water from a common water pot. Have they no love? The
caste system cannot be said to be bad because it does not allow
interdining or intermarriage between different castes.
(7) Caste is another name for control. Caste puts a limit on
enjoyment. Caste does not allow a person to transgress caste limits in
pursuit of his enjoyment. That is the meaning of such caste
restrictions as interdining and intermarriage.
(8) To destroy caste system and adopt Western European social system
means that Hindus must give up the principle of hereditary occupation
which is the soul of the caste system. Hereditary principle is an
eternal principle. To change it is to create disorder. I have no use
for a Brahmin if I cannot call him a Brahmin for my life. It will be a
chaos if every day a Brahmin is to be changed into a Shudra and a
Shudra is to be changed into a Brahmin.
(9) The caste system is a natural order of society. In India it has
been given a religious coating. Other countries not having understood
the utility of the caste system, it existed only in a loose condition
and consequently those countries have not derived from caste system
the same degree of advantage which India has derived. These being my
views I am opposed to all those who are out to destroy the caste
system.
How about calling black people subhuman for being black like Adolf Hitler's Indian Twin Gandhi BC did?
On What Gandhi wanted
The last week has been very busy. We have not had a moment's leisure.
We saw Mr. Theodore Morison of Aligarh and the well-known Mr. Stead of
the Review of Reviews. Mr. Stead has boldly come out to give us all
the help he can. He was therefore requested to write to the same Boer
leaders that they should not consider Indians as being on the same
level as Kaffirs
Indian Opinion, 15-12-1906, CWOMG Vol. 6, pg 183
private delete
October 4, 2005
On What Gandhi wanted (3)
CLASSIFICATION OF ASIATICS WITH NATIVES
The cell was situated in the Native quarters and we were housed in one
that was labeled 'For Coloured Debtors'. It was this experience for
which we were perhaps all unprepared. We had fondly imagined that we
would have suitable quarters apart from the Natives. As it was,
perhaps, just as well that we were classed with Natives. We would now
be able to study the life of Native prisoners, their customs and
manners. ...Degradation underlay the classing of Indians with natives.
The Asiatic Act seemed to me to be the summit of our degradation. It
did appear to me, as I think it would appear to any unprejudiced
reader, that it would have been simple humanity if we were given
special quarters. ...the Governor of the gaol tried to make us as
comfortable as he could...But he was powerless to accommodate us
beyond the horrible din and the yells of the Native prisoners
throughout the day and partly at night also. Many of the native
prisoners are only one degree removed from the animal and often
created rows and fought amongst themselves in their cells.
Indian Opinion 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 120
Apart from whether or not this implies degradation, I must say it is
rather dangerous. Kaffirs are as a rule uncivilized -- the convicts
even more so. They are troublesome, very dirty, and live almost like
animals. Each ward contains nearly 50 to 60 of them. They often
started rows and fought among themselves. The reader can easily
imagine the plight of the poor Indian thrown into such company
Indian Opinion, 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 135
private delete
October 4, 2005
On What Gandhi wanted (2)
INDIANS ON PAR WITH KAFFIRS
There, our garments were stamped with the letter 'N', which meant that
we were being classed with the Natives. We were all prepared for
hardships, but not quite for this experience. We could understand not
being classed with the whites, but to be placed on the same level with
the Natives seemed too much to put up with. I then felt that Indians
had launched on passive resistance too soon. Here was further proof
that the obnoxious law was intended to emasculate the Indians.
It was, however, as well that we were classified with the Natives. It
was a welcome opportunity to study the treatment meted out to the
Natives, their conditions [of life in the gaol] and their habits.
...We were given a separate ward because we were sentenced to simple
imprisonment; otherwise we would have been in the same ward [with the
Kaffirs]. Indians sentenced to hard labour are in fact kept with the
Kaffirs.
Apart from whether or not this implies degradation, I must say it is
rather dangerous. Kaffirs are as a rule uncivilized -- the convicts
even more so. They are troublesome, very dirty, and live almost like
animals. Each ward contains nearly 50 to 60 of them. They often
started rows and fought among themselves. The reader can easily
imagine the plight of the poor Indian thrown into such company
Indian Opinion, 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 135
private delete
October 4, 2005
On What Gandhi wanted (1)
I have, though, resolved in my mind on an agitation to ensure that
Indian prisoners are not lodged with Kaffirs or others. When I arrived
at the place, there were about 15 Indian prisoners. Except for three,
all of them were satyagrahis. The three were charged with other
offences. These prisoners were generally lodged with kaffirs. When I
reached there, the chief warder issued an order that all of us should
be lodged in a separate room. I observed with regret that some Indians
were happy to sleep in the same room as the Kaffirs, the reason being
that they hoped there for a secret supply of tobacco, etc. This is a
matter of shame to us. We may entertain no aversion to the Kaffirs,
but we cannot ignore the fact that there is no common ground between
them and us in the daily affairs of life. Moreover, those who wish to
sleep in the same room have ulterior motives for doing so.
Obviously, we ought to abandon such notions if we want to make progress.
Indian Opinion, 6-1-1909, CWOMG Vol. 9, pg 149
On What Gandhi wanted (9)
Gandhi's disdain for black people continues:
It is one thing to register Natives who would not work, and whom it is
very difficult to find out if they absent themselves, but it is
another thing and most insulting to expect decent, hard-working, and
respectable Indians, whose only fault is that they work too much, to
have themselves registered
What is a Coolie, Indian Opinion 2151904, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 193
CWOMG: Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi
private delete
October 4, 2005
On What Gandhi wanted (8)
The whole affair is as much a disgrace to the Indian community as it
is to the British Empire. The British rulers take us to be so lowly
and ignorant that they assume that, like the Kaffirs who can be
pleased with toys and pins, we can also be fobbed off with trinkets
Indian Opinion, 29-2-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 105
CWOMG: Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi
private delete
October 4, 2005
On What Gandhi wanted (7)
More on SEPARATE AND UNEQUAL theory of Gandhiji...
His Excellency has, moreover, justified the definition of 'coloured
person' on the ground that it is a legacy from the old Government. But
British Indians object to the definition for that very reason. Their
position is this. The ordinances will not in practice apply to them.
The Boer Government insulted the Indians by classing them with the
Kaffirs. Now there is no occasion to perpetuate a needless insult
Indians in the O.R.C, Indian Opinion, 6-1-1906, CWOMG, Vol. 5, pg 177-178
Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi: CWOMG
private delete
October 4, 2005
On What Gandhi wanted (6)
More on SEPARATE AND UNEQUAL theory of Gandhiji...
His Excellency has, moreover, justified the definition of 'coloured
person' on the ground that it is a legacy from the old Government. But
British Indians object to the definition for that very reason. Their
position is this. The ordinances will not in practice apply to them.
The Boer Government insulted the Indians by classing them with the
Kaffirs. Now there is no occasion to perpetuate a needless insult
Indians in the O.R.C, Indian Opinion, 6-1-1906, CWOMG, Vol. 5, pg 177-178
Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi: CWOMG
private delete
October 4, 2005
On What Gandhi wanted (5)
It reduces British Indians to a status lower than that of the
aboriginal races of South Africa and the Coloured people.
Indian Opinion 15-9-1906, CWOMG Vol. 5, pg 419-423
On What Gandhi wanted (14)
On Minority White rule in South Africa:
We, therefore, have no hesitation in agreeing with the view that in
the long run assisted Asiatic immigration into the Transvaal would be
disastrous to the white settlement. People will gradually accommodate
themselves to relying upon Asiatic labour, and any White immigration
of the special class required in the Transvaal on a large scale will
be practically impossible. It would be equally unfair to the Natives
of the soil. It is all very well to say that they would not work, and
that, if the Asiatics were introduced, that would be a stimulus to
work; but human nature is the same everywhere, and once Asiatic labour
is resorted to, there would not be a sustained effort to induce the
Natives to work under what would otherwise be, after all, gentle
compulsion. There would be then less talk about taxing the Natives and
so forth. Natives themselves, used as they are to a very simple mode
of life, will always be able to command enough wages to meet their
wants; and the result will be putting back their progress for an
indefinite length of time. We have used the words 'gentle compulsion'
in the best sense of the term; we mean compulsion of the same kind
that a parent exercises over children
Indian Opinion, 9-7-1903, CWOMG Vol. 3, pg 359-360
CWOMG: COLLECTED WORKS OF MAHATMA GANDHI.
private delete
October 4, 2005
On What Gandhi wanted (13)
On Minority White rule in South Africa:
We, therefore, have no hesitation in agreeing with the view that in
the long run assisted Asiatic immigration into the Transvaal would be
disastrous to the white settlement. People will gradually accommodate
themselves to relying upon Asiatic labour, and any White immigration
of the special class required in the Transvaal on a large scale will
be practically impossible. It would be equally unfair to the Natives
of the soil. It is all very well to say that they would not work, and
that, if the Asiatics were introduced, that would be a stimulus to
work; but human nature is the same everywhere, and once Asiatic labour
is resorted to, there would not be a sustained effort to induce the
Natives to work under what would otherwise be, after all, gentle
compulsion. There would be then less talk about taxing the Natives and
so forth. Natives themselves, used as they are to a very simple mode
of life, will always be able to command enough wages to meet their
wants; and the result will be putting back their progress for an
indefinite length of time. We have used the words 'gentle compulsion'
in the best sense of the term; we mean compulsion of the same kind
that a parent exercises over children
For Beej who is apparently BLIND: Indian Opinion, 9-7-1903, CWOMG Vol.
3, pg 359-360
CWOMG: COLLECTED WORKS OF MAHATMA GANDHI.
private delete
October 4, 2005
On What Gandhi wanted (12)
What the British Indians pray for is very little. They ask for no
political power. They admit the British race should be the dominant
race in South Africa. All they ask for is freedom for those that are
now settled and those that may be allowed to come in future to trade,
to move about, and to hold landed property without any hindrance save
the ordinary legal requirements
Petition to Natal Legislature, CWOMG, vol3, pg 330
private delete
October 4, 2005
On What Gandhi wanted (11)
Ah... and they said Plessey Vs Ferguson was bad...
Well here is Gandhi with his theory of "Separate and Unequal"
...The petition dwells upon "the co-mingling of the Coloured and white
races". May we inform the members of the conference that, so far as
the British Indians are concerned, such a thing is practically
unknown? If there is one thing, which the Indian cherishes more than
any other, it is the purity of type. Why bring such a question into
the controversy at all?
The Transvaal Chambers and British Indians, Indian Opinion 24-12-03,
CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 89
private delete
October 4, 2005
On What Gandhi wanted (10)
More on Gandhi's theory of "separate and unequal"
Why, of all places in Johannesburg, the Indian Location should be
chosen for dumping down all the Kaffirs of the town passes my
comprehension. ...Of course, under my suggestion, The Town Council
must withdraw the Kaffirs from the Location. About this mixing of
Kaffirs with the Indians, I must confess I feel most strongly
Indian Opinion, 10-4-04, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 130-131
Other Gandhian Statements that we need to consider...
'Sanghtan is a really sound movement. Every community is entitled,
indeed bound to organize itself as a seperate entity' : Mahatma Gandhi
(Young India January 6th 1927)
A translation of a Gujrati essay he wrote in 1922 for Niya Jawan
(1) I believe that if Hindu Society has been able to stand it is
because it is founded on the caste system.
(2) The seeds of swaraj are to be found in the caste system. Different
castes are like different sections of miliary division. Each division
is working for the good of the whole....
(3) A community which can create the caste system must be said to
possess unique power of organization.
(4) Caste has a ready made means for spreading primary education. Each
caste can take the responsibility for the education of the children of
the caste. Caste has a political basis. It can work as an electorate
for a representative body. Caste can perform judicial functions by
electing persons to act as judges to decide disputes among members of
the same caste. With castes it is easy to raise a defense force by
requiring each caste to raise a brigade.
(5) I believe that interdining or intermarriage are not necessary for
promoting national unity. That dining together creates friendship is
contrary to experience. If this was true there would have been no war
in Europe.... Taking food is as dirty an act as answering the call of
nature. The only difference is that after answering call of nature we
get peace while after eating food we get discomfort. Just as we
perform the act of answering the call of nature in seclusion so also
the act of taking food must also be done in seclusion.
(6) In India children of brothers do not intermarry. Do they cease to
love because they do not intermarry? Among the Vaishnavas many women
are so orthodox that they will not eat with members of the family nor
will they drink water from a common water pot. Have they no love? The
caste system cannot be said to be bad because it does not allow
interdining or intermarriage between different castes.
(7) Caste is another name for control. Caste puts a limit on
enjoyment. Caste does not allow a person to transgress caste limits in
pursuit of his enjoyment. That is the meaning of such caste
restrictions as interdining and intermarriage.
(8) To destroy caste system and adopt Western European social system
means that Hindus must give up the principle of hereditary occupation
which is the soul of the caste system. Hereditary principle is an
eternal principle. To change it is to create disorder. I have no use
for a Brahmin if I cannot call him a Brahmin for my life. It will be a
chaos if every day a Brahmin is to be changed into a Shudra and a
Shudra is to be changed into a Brahmin.
(9) The caste system is a natural order of society. In India it has
been given a religious coating. Other countries not having understood
the utility of the caste system, it existed only in a loose condition
and consequently those countries have not derived from caste system
the same degree of advantage which India has derived. These being my
views I am opposed to all those who are out to destroy the caste
system.
#36 Posted by BJ2 on June 17, 2008 4:05:48 am
Re: # 33
[Get rid of it, you will not face problem... ]
Nkg, you are talking to the progeny of the Jinnah - the man who always preferred to work WITH the oppressor!
[Get rid of it, you will not face problem... ]
Nkg, you are talking to the progeny of the Jinnah - the man who always preferred to work WITH the oppressor!
#35 Posted by BJ2 on June 17, 2008 3:59:18 am
[I don't like arguing with third rate people who have probably not stepped out of their office space and no even less of history]
The constant need to demean others - a very Jinnah-like characteristic and a sign of deep-rooted insecurity and fear!
#34 Posted by MantoLives on June 17, 2008 3:38:55 am
Guru,
Prepare for a stinging one... here it comes... chmaaat!
http://www.rediff.com/news/2005/jun/13spec1.htm
June 13, 2005
As the country is plunged into an acrimonious debate on Mohammad Ali Jinnah's secular credentials, a trust in Mumbai named after the founder of Pakistan is busy helping poor students of all creeds.
Welcome to the Jinnah Hall Trust.
Sitting in his small cubicle at The People's Jinnah Hall at Grant Road in south Mumbai, Nayan Yagnik, a trustee of the Jinnah Hall Trust, does not want to comment on whether Bharatiya Janata Party chief Lal Kishenchand Advani was right when he praised Jinnah's secular credentials recently in Pakistan. He does not comment either on the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh's attack on Advani. He has no views on the RSS' Akhand Bharat Theory -- a line of thinking that seeks to reverse bloody Partition.
Yagnik is thinking of the days ahead. He has his job cut out. A new educational year is staring him in the face. What it means for him is a flood of applications for scholarships. The applications will have to be screened and deserving students would have to be awarded assistance. Deserving students, mind you -- not deserving Hindu students, not deserving Muslim students, not deserving Christian students.
Complete Coverage: The BJP Crisis
The Jinnah Hall Trust, as the name suggests, also controls a community hall that is let out for cultural and family functions for a small price. It is let out to political parties too and parties of all hues, including the Shiv Sena and BJP, have used the hall.
Though the trust calls it The People's Jinnah Hall, political parties refer to it as just The People's Hall on the invitation cards.
Attempts were made by the Sena and BJP to pressure trustees to rename the trust. Yagnik, a Gujarati, and other trustees, none of them a Muslim, refused.
How this hall got its name is an interesting story.
Also see: Advani's popularity soars in Pak
It was 1918. Lord Willingdon was relinquishing the governorship of Bombay province and a meeting was convened to appreciate his services. Jinnah did not approve of the idea and decided to organise a protest. He along with his wife Ratanbai and a large number of protestors were forceably removed by the police.
The episode made Jinnah a hero and within a few days his admirers, mostly Congress workers, contributed Rs 30,000 in his honour.
The amount was presented to him at a felicitation ceremony at a small hall at Congress House. However, Jinnah, one of the most successful barristers in the city, returned the money.
The Congressmen then named the hall after him and set up a trust with the Rs 30,000. It was called the Jinnah Hall Trust.
Yagnik says it is a small trust with annual earnings of less than Rs 100,000. Nobody from Jinnah's family has ever been involved in the trust though Nusli Wadia, Jinnah's grandson and chairman of the Bombay Dyeing [Get Quote] group, lives in Mumbai.
"Sometime ago the Pakistan government had wanted to set up their temporary visa office here, but we said no. We don't want to make it a diplomatic or political issue," Yagnik said.
Prepare for a stinging one... here it comes... chmaaat!
http://www.rediff.com/news/2005/jun/13spec1.htm
June 13, 2005
As the country is plunged into an acrimonious debate on Mohammad Ali Jinnah's secular credentials, a trust in Mumbai named after the founder of Pakistan is busy helping poor students of all creeds.
Welcome to the Jinnah Hall Trust.
Sitting in his small cubicle at The People's Jinnah Hall at Grant Road in south Mumbai, Nayan Yagnik, a trustee of the Jinnah Hall Trust, does not want to comment on whether Bharatiya Janata Party chief Lal Kishenchand Advani was right when he praised Jinnah's secular credentials recently in Pakistan. He does not comment either on the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh's attack on Advani. He has no views on the RSS' Akhand Bharat Theory -- a line of thinking that seeks to reverse bloody Partition.
Yagnik is thinking of the days ahead. He has his job cut out. A new educational year is staring him in the face. What it means for him is a flood of applications for scholarships. The applications will have to be screened and deserving students would have to be awarded assistance. Deserving students, mind you -- not deserving Hindu students, not deserving Muslim students, not deserving Christian students.
Complete Coverage: The BJP Crisis
The Jinnah Hall Trust, as the name suggests, also controls a community hall that is let out for cultural and family functions for a small price. It is let out to political parties too and parties of all hues, including the Shiv Sena and BJP, have used the hall.
Though the trust calls it The People's Jinnah Hall, political parties refer to it as just The People's Hall on the invitation cards.
Attempts were made by the Sena and BJP to pressure trustees to rename the trust. Yagnik, a Gujarati, and other trustees, none of them a Muslim, refused.
How this hall got its name is an interesting story.
Also see: Advani's popularity soars in Pak
It was 1918. Lord Willingdon was relinquishing the governorship of Bombay province and a meeting was convened to appreciate his services. Jinnah did not approve of the idea and decided to organise a protest. He along with his wife Ratanbai and a large number of protestors were forceably removed by the police.
The episode made Jinnah a hero and within a few days his admirers, mostly Congress workers, contributed Rs 30,000 in his honour.
The amount was presented to him at a felicitation ceremony at a small hall at Congress House. However, Jinnah, one of the most successful barristers in the city, returned the money.
The Congressmen then named the hall after him and set up a trust with the Rs 30,000. It was called the Jinnah Hall Trust.
Yagnik says it is a small trust with annual earnings of less than Rs 100,000. Nobody from Jinnah's family has ever been involved in the trust though Nusli Wadia, Jinnah's grandson and chairman of the Bombay Dyeing [Get Quote] group, lives in Mumbai.
"Sometime ago the Pakistan government had wanted to set up their temporary visa office here, but we said no. We don't want to make it a diplomatic or political issue," Yagnik said.
#33 Posted by nkg on June 17, 2008 3:32:03 am
Ahamedi or Muhammedi, the problem lies with the uncivilised concept of prophet,revealition... Get rid of it, you will not face problem...
#32 Posted by pakistan3 on June 17, 2008 2:45:55 am
Re: # 31
Masadi,
Why are you so against Mr Jinnah?
Masadi,
Why are you so against Mr Jinnah?
#31 Posted by masadi on June 17, 2008 2:39:49 am
Manto the charlatan writes "Now BBC is not stupid because it calls me of all people to speak on behalf of the Lawyers' Movement...."
They certainly arent stupid but you are if you think that they call you because of your smarts or your participation in the movement. They call you because you tell them what they want their viewers to hear, end of story. Go contratian and you'll see how fast they drop you. You are a bloody nobody in intellect and most definately in morals, your knowledge is based on copy pastes and absolutely no arguments to counter your opponents. You are the leader of the "champions of diarrohea" (your words) and a "third rate" human being (if human at all, like maj you might even be a blood sucking vampire)....
They certainly arent stupid but you are if you think that they call you because of your smarts or your participation in the movement. They call you because you tell them what they want their viewers to hear, end of story. Go contratian and you'll see how fast they drop you. You are a bloody nobody in intellect and most definately in morals, your knowledge is based on copy pastes and absolutely no arguments to counter your opponents. You are the leader of the "champions of diarrohea" (your words) and a "third rate" human being (if human at all, like maj you might even be a blood sucking vampire)....
#30 Posted by guru on June 17, 2008 2:11:56 am
Re: # 27:
"Unlike Gandhi's sojourn in Aga Khan's palace... Jinnah was on one occasion beaten up and injured by the police ... but he stood his ground and the citizens of Bombay built and dedicated a hall to him called "People's Jinnah Hall" ... which is still there in Bombay."
Just as Bombay does not exist except in few anglophile the coconut, this hall you say does not exist on Lamington Road.
It is a short road one can walk up & down in 20 minutes.
The dead stinking dog in the well is the dhimmification & coconutization of Indians on both sides of Wagha. BA Hons & Bar at Law babus are the culprits.
"Unlike Gandhi's sojourn in Aga Khan's palace... Jinnah was on one occasion beaten up and injured by the police ... but he stood his ground and the citizens of Bombay built and dedicated a hall to him called "People's Jinnah Hall" ... which is still there in Bombay."
Just as Bombay does not exist except in few anglophile the coconut, this hall you say does not exist on Lamington Road.
It is a short road one can walk up & down in 20 minutes.
The dead stinking dog in the well is the dhimmification & coconutization of Indians on both sides of Wagha. BA Hons & Bar at Law babus are the culprits.
#29 Posted by jayp on June 17, 2008 1:50:19 am
Re: # 27
YLH,
Great to know taht you were at the march of the loosers, teh hoodwinked and the stupid lot.
The self important fools who think that restoring a few corrupt judges is more important than fighting crime in teh streets of karachi.
YLH,
Great to know taht you were at the march of the loosers, teh hoodwinked and the stupid lot.
The self important fools who think that restoring a few corrupt judges is more important than fighting crime in teh streets of karachi.
#28 Posted by jayp on June 17, 2008 1:47:40 am
"Ahmadis were also very much Muslim when the Government of Pakistan laid claim to Qadian as a Muslim holy place in 1947 as a counterweight to Sikh claims to their holy sites in Pakistan"
//////////
Thanks for telling the truth. The ahmadis were political pawns right at teh formation of pakistan, used by none other than jinnah.
So what is teh harm in bhutto using them as political pawn and making them non-muslims.
Ahmadi issue is only a symptom of much parger malice.
There is a dead dog in the well, that si why teh water is stinking. No cosmetic like a constitution can help teh situation.
Remove those photos, remove TNT
//////////
Thanks for telling the truth. The ahmadis were political pawns right at teh formation of pakistan, used by none other than jinnah.
So what is teh harm in bhutto using them as political pawn and making them non-muslims.
Ahmadi issue is only a symptom of much parger malice.
There is a dead dog in the well, that si why teh water is stinking. No cosmetic like a constitution can help teh situation.
Remove those photos, remove TNT
#27 Posted by MantoLives on June 17, 2008 1:44:06 am
I don't like arguing with third rate people who have probably not stepped out of their office space and no even less of history... but facts must be stated.
Jinnah participated in a fair share of marches during his time in the Congress Party and the Home Rule League and also as an independent... most famous one of which was the protest against Simon Commission which had no Indian ..
Unlike Gandhi's sojourn in Aga Khan's palace... Jinnah was on one occasion beaten up and injured by the police ... but he stood his ground and the citizens of Bombay built and dedicated a hall to him called "People's Jinnah Hall" ... which is still there in Bombay. He was never opposed to protest marches ... but he was against Mahatmafying them.
Also as Jinnah's true follower and a Pakistani, I participated in the Long March on Friday... after I spoke to BBC live at 12 noon. Now BBC is not stupid because it calls me of all people to speak on behalf of the Lawyers' Movement.
Now I am done talking to champions of diahorrea on chowk and I bid you farewell.
-YLH
PS: Great article. Just shows that what I have been saying is now gaining acceptance because it is the truth.
Jinnah participated in a fair share of marches during his time in the Congress Party and the Home Rule League and also as an independent... most famous one of which was the protest against Simon Commission which had no Indian ..
Unlike Gandhi's sojourn in Aga Khan's palace... Jinnah was on one occasion beaten up and injured by the police ... but he stood his ground and the citizens of Bombay built and dedicated a hall to him called "People's Jinnah Hall" ... which is still there in Bombay. He was never opposed to protest marches ... but he was against Mahatmafying them.
Also as Jinnah's true follower and a Pakistani, I participated in the Long March on Friday... after I spoke to BBC live at 12 noon. Now BBC is not stupid because it calls me of all people to speak on behalf of the Lawyers' Movement.
Now I am done talking to champions of diahorrea on chowk and I bid you farewell.
-YLH
PS: Great article. Just shows that what I have been saying is now gaining acceptance because it is the truth.
#26 Posted by jayp on June 17, 2008 1:43:04 am
SR,
The chowk article is gone.
But the more pathetic part is that the so called educated pakistanis that man the chowk did nothing to advance their so called moral outrage about teh ahmadi situation. For a long time I have argued that they should write an article on chowk at teh birth anniversary of abdus salam to honour him.
Not even a single pakistani on chowk supported this idea.
So much for doing some even symbolic action for a cause that the pakis believe in, or so they say to teh world.
The chowk article is gone.
But the more pathetic part is that the so called educated pakistanis that man the chowk did nothing to advance their so called moral outrage about teh ahmadi situation. For a long time I have argued that they should write an article on chowk at teh birth anniversary of abdus salam to honour him.
Not even a single pakistani on chowk supported this idea.
So much for doing some even symbolic action for a cause that the pakis believe in, or so they say to teh world.
#25 Posted by SR on June 17, 2008 1:25:32 am
Chowk Islamist hacks into the Chowk server
ISLAMABAD: June 17.
It has been reported by our correspondant in Palo Alto, California, that a renown Chowk Islamist hacker has managed to worm his way around the 'Fire Walls' of the Chowk main server and deleted the Pro-Ahmedi kafir propaganda.
Neither the Islamists hacker (to be unnamed) nor Chowk Staff were available for comment.
ISLAMABAD: June 17.
It has been reported by our correspondant in Palo Alto, California, that a renown Chowk Islamist hacker has managed to worm his way around the 'Fire Walls' of the Chowk main server and deleted the Pro-Ahmedi kafir propaganda.
Neither the Islamists hacker (to be unnamed) nor Chowk Staff were available for comment.
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