Restoring the Civil Rights of Ahmadis

Re: # 143 Cartoon
Is that the same lensman who worked on the cartoons after capturing you unplugged on film as a 'cartoon'?

Chaiti duss mainoN Bashiraya...

#161 Posted by sattar2 on June 19, 2008 10:35:39 pm

Sattar Sahib,
Just as a matter of clarification, my views concerning Qadianis not being Muslims are not meant to necessarily convey any connotations regarding good/bad or Pakistani/non-Pakistani attributes.

You, even as a Qadiani, may be a very good person and Chacha Sahib, as a genuine Muslim, for all we know, could be a not so good person. A Qadiani soldier as a patriotic Pakistani would be a better Pakistani than a Sunni or Shia Muslim Pakistani who is a traitor selling out to Indians. My comments are strictly based on behavior and beliefs expressed by several Qadianis.

#158 Posted by Kulharee on June 19, 2008 1:11:37 pm

{"Salim, there is something inherently wrong with you, that’s why I don’t blame you. People usually start drinking after they get married. You just do everything backwards. There is hope that one day you will convert to the real Islam – Ahmadiyyah."}

Mr. Kulharee,
Don't hold your breath. There is a far greater chance of you becoming a nun than I becoming a Qadiani.

#161 Posted by sattar2 on June 19, 2008 10:35:39 pm

{"Salim (#133),
You used to be an intelligent man in a lot of ways; in a lot of ways that’s no longer the case. You’ve mischaracterized the issue, your facts are incorrect, and your reasoning is lame. Other than that you may have a point!"}

Sattar Sahib,
I am sorry to disappoint you with my loss of intelligence. That often happens when one learns knew facts that one did not know before and those who formerly agreed with one no longer find one so pleasing - or rather intelligent. :)

My experience is based on, not one but two, self-proclaimed Qadiani Chowkies. They have openly insulted the Holy Prophet (PBUH) in the most vulgar and profane words and depictions imaginable. Because one of them is a frequent writer on Qadiani issues, I must attribute his blasphemy on some basis of Qadiani propensity for insulting the Holy Prophet (PBUH). Perhaps some Qadianis perceive the Holy Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) as a rival for Mirza Ghulam Ahmed's claim to being Allah's Messenger (Nauzbillah - God forbid - Aztaghfirullah).

{"Merely claiming that Ahmadi beliefs violate Islamic principles … is not enough. You need to validate this view. As far as I know, Quran and ahadith both support continuation of prophethood. What you and your ullema believe is your business, not mine. However, when you criticize others, you need to validate your viewpoint."}

Just the fact that you call yourself "Ahmadi" is a validation that you follow Mirza Ghulam Ahmed rather than the Holy Prophet Mohammed (PBUH). You may consider Our Holy Prophet (PBUH) as some sort of an obscure Prophet Jonah or Zakaria, but you certainly are not among his followers like the overwhelming majority of Muslims. If your beliefs were Muslim beliefs, you would not be referring to them as "Ahmadi beliefs."

My viewpoints are not influenced by any Ulema and I certainly don't need a convoluted misinterpretation of the Holy Koran or some obscure Hadith to corrupt my beliefs. God knows, enough people are doing that in the name of "Islam" already. Apparently, a devious and insidiously anti-Islamic person can justify murder, oppression of women, violence against women, slaughter of unbelievers, and even illiteracy by quoting some out of context verse of the Holy Koran or a Hadith manufactured as a pretext. The finality of the Prophethood of Our Holy Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) is the second most important belief of Muslims and NOTHING is going to convince us of the contrary.

There have been numerous false "messengers" in history and the mental institutions of the Islamic world, especially in UP, India were always caring for one Abraham, or Jesus, or Moses, or even Adam.

{"You cannot justifiably project comments of a few (one?) people as views of the whole community. Would it be fair if Muslims were demonized on basis of the views of Osama? Think carefully before responding. Check the writings of Mirza Sahib and Ahmadi-Muslim views on Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) before shooting off your mouth."}

Of course I can learn from the beliefs and expression of one, two, or more Qadianis as a metric for the beliefs of this religion. Either the profane Qadianis represent some other sect of your religion or you just act in a more civilized manner. In any case you have never publicly condemned or even disagreed with their profanity and insults. As for Osama or Zawahiri and others, many Muslims, including me, have openly condemned and rejected those extremist and clearly un-Islamic views. To me these irrational, bloody, and mistaken fools are still Muslim because they have not denied God or denied Our Holy Prophet (PBUH) as the final Messenger of Allah. This should give you an indication of where you rank.

{"In Quran Allah uses terms “Messenger� and “Prophet� for Muhammad (pbuh) and others. You are not in a position to trademark these terms and limit their use. Quran is your Book just as much as mine, Allah is your God just as much as mine, Muhammad (pbuh) is your prophet just as much as mine. You cannot take away my right to believe in them … you cannot force me to consider myself a non-Muslim."}

You yourself have taken away your "right" to be called Muslims, by corrupting the message of Islam, insulting the Holy Prophet (PBUH), spreading disinformation about Islam to the world, and trying to dismantle the religion from within. The Muslim Ummah has recognized this malicious attitude and has correctly branded you as non-Muslim. Of course Allah is everyone's God - even of those who don't believe in Him. Also, the Holy Prophet (PBUH) is everyone's prophet - even of those who dump garbage upon him, including Qadianis who associate false "prophets" after him and hurl insults and profanity upon his name.

Sattar Sahib,
If a Muslim disrespects Mirza Ghulam Ahmed and some Qadianis respond with insults against the Holy Prophet (PBUH) as retaliation against Muslims, doesn't it follow that the Qadianis must consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmed as theirs and the Holy Prophet (PBUH) as the Muslims'? So much for your statement about the Holy Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) being YOUR prophet as much as mine.

{"Your claims of exclusive rights over divinity will drag us to back to the Dark Ages. You may want to go there; I don’t.

No one is asking you to have “respect and affection� for Mirza Sahib. Neither am I asking non-Muslims to have respect and affection for Prophet Muhamamd (pbuh). People believe what they will … and life goes on."}

Sattar Sahib,
Why are Qadianis so hung up on the status of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed as a "prophet" or a "messenger?" There have been numerous reformers in Islamic history and most of them were neither insecure nor selfish to demand a status equaling that of Our Holy Prophet (PBUH). If Qadianis were genuine reformers, they should have impressed the Muslim community with their reforms and not put the issue of "prophethood" as their main reform. Ibn-e-Rushd, Ibn-e-Sina, Jaffer Al Sadiq, Jalaluddin Rumi, Moeenuddin Chishti, Saleemuddin Chishti, and many others tried to reform Islam but not one of them was selfish or stupid enough to demand "prophethood." When Bahaullah in Iran attempted this, the Baha’is themselves chose to leave Islam rather than insult their former religion by insisting that Muslims accept their leader as a prophet.

{"You may consider Ahmadis heretics - that’s your business. But you go too far when you support imprisoning Ahmadis for considering themselves Muslims. Your argument based on “laws of democratically elected government� would also justify legalized racial discrimination against African Americans. I hope you see the futility, nay - the dangers, of your views."}

Given the facts about Mirza Ghulam Ahmed claiming to be a "prophet" or "messenger" of Allah, I do not consider Qadianis to be heretics - I consider them to be non-Muslims and therefore deserving of the same courtesy, safeguards, and respect that I would have for Jews, Hindus, Christians, Buddhists, and Sikhs. I will not say that you are wrong, false, or mistaken - I will just say that you are not Muslim. The Catholic Church would have done far worse to stamp out deviations from what they consider mainstream. There were many "crusades" against Arians and other forms of heresy. I think that Islam has been far kinder to its aberrations - the Druzes, Alawites, Kharajites, and Wahabbis have not suffered as much as their Christian counterparts. But of course, the Qadianis have gone far far beyond these aberrations.

#163 Posted by jang on June 20, 2008 5:03:15 am

{"salim yar among its many good properties which make islam whole and true, tribalism is one of them. islam we know has its roots in tribalism of arabia. so leaving a tribe by an individual is no problem. but weakening the tribe is correctly seen as a potential mortal blow and it therfore treated as treason."}

Jang,
Almost all human existence is rooted in some sort of tribalism - especially Judaism (12 tribes etc...)and even Hinduism (color coded caste totem pole, etc...), so let's not attach specific tribal attributes to Islam. On the contrary, Islam was among the first international movements to erase tribal, ethnic, and caste distinctions.

As for leaving Islam, if people didn't make a big deal of their departure there would be few problems. Our own Hamidumdum Sahib has been long gone and, as far as we can tell, he is still alive and kicking. Only the people who want to gain notoriety, some profits from mediocre books and TV appearances, or to claim all kinds of asylum-related advantages, sound their departure with trumpets and drums.

Don't ask don't tell would be the proper approach to leaving an association with which one no longer wants any connection. A person can be a Qadiani without having to draw attention to his/her affliction by insulting Islam, its Holy Prophet (PBUH), and its symbols.

{Jang, I can leave Islam anytime I want to and there will be no consequence. }

salim yar among its many good properties which make islam whole and true, tribalism is one of them. islam we know has its roots in tribalism of arabia. so leaving a tribe by an individual is no problem. but weakening the tribe is correctly seen as a potential mortal blow and it therfore treated as treason.

sattar2,

You're still trying? You and others should stop blaming Pakistan/Saudia etc. The Qadiani issue stands decided OIC through unanimous vote way back and a year before the Pakistan ex-communication.

Salim (#133),

You used to be an intelligent man in a lot of ways; in a lot of ways that’s no longer the case. You’ve mischaracterized the issue, your facts are incorrect, and your reasoning is lame. Other than that you may have a point!

Merely claiming that Ahmadi beliefs violate Islamic principles … is not enough. You need to validate this view. As far as I know, Quran and ahadith both support continuation of prophethood. What you and your ullema believe is your business, not mine. However, when you criticize others, you need to validate your viewpoint.

You cannot justifiably project comments of a few (one?) people as views of the whole community. Would it be fair if Muslims were demonized on basis of the views of Osama? Think carefully before responding. Check the writings of Mirza Sahib and Ahmadi-Muslim views on Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) before shooting off your mouth.

In Quran Allah uses terms “Messenger� and “Prophet� for Muhammad (pbuh) and others. You are not in a position to trademark these terms and limit their use. Quran is your Book just as much as mine, Allah is your God just as much as mine, Muhammad (pbuh) is your prophet just as much as mine. You cannot take away my right to believe in them … you cannot force me to consider myself a non-Muslim.

Your claims of exclusive rights over divinity will drag us to back to the Dark Ages. You may want to go there; I don’t.

No one is asking you to have “respect and affection� for Mirza Sahib. Neither am I asking non-Muslims to have respect and affection for Prophet Muhamamd (pbuh). People believe what they will … and life goes on.

You may consider Ahmadis heretics - that’s your business. But you go too far when you support imprisoning Ahmadis for considering themselves Muslims. Your argument based on “laws of democratically elected government� would also justify legalized racial discrimination against African Americans. I hope you see the futility, nay - the dangers, of your views.

Re: # 140; Tahir sahib

I talk about my parents' 'disappointment' at me interacting with "wank-pots" on this site and you become all defensive; why?

How do you know I was referring to you and not someone else?

I must take my hat off to your perceptiveness sir! You are far cleverer than I thought

Salim....if it's not the booze, then there's something seriously wrong with you..saying you were an alcoholic is actually a complement...if not the booze, you have some serious mental disease..



#75 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on April 7, 2006 12:21:52 pm

Mullah Atif2,
I am not surprised to read this rhetoric posted by you. You are uttering the same accursed Wahabbi mantra that is destroying Islam. While not killing Shias, your ilk is going around preaching mischief and intolerance. When will you guys grow up and stop dividing Islam into little pieces of carrion that will be easily consumed by vultures? First Ahmadis, then Ismailis, then Asna Ashuri Shias, then Alawites, then Druze, and finally when you run out of ``enemies,`` you will pick on each other. Shame on your bigotry, intolerance, and hatred. The day is not far when the liberal, learned, and responsible Muslims retrieve our religion from you guys and send you packing to hell. We all know how you have been the primary cheerleader for the insurgents in Iraq that blow up Shia holy places, kill innocent people randomly, and take hostages - even cutting some of their throats in front of a video camera to emphasize their piety.




#85 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on April 7, 2006 12:57:25 pm
#81, Kulaharee {``They will lay down their lives to protect us Ahmadis from these Mullahs``}

Kul,
While I detest you personally, I will defend with my life your right to call yourself a Muslim, an Elk, a Moose, or a member of any club that refuses to let you in. I for one would never join a club that is willing to have me as a member.

Salim, there is something inherently wrong with you, that’s why I don’t blame you. People usually start drinking after they get married. You just do everything backwards. There is hope that one day you will convert to the real Islam – Ahmadiyyah.

#155 Posted by _arjun5 on June 19, 2008 12:45:05 pm
{"and we all know what made salim change his views and become such a big defender of mo.."}

Arjun,
By now you may have realized that I am a devout, loyal, grateful, and genuine follower of the Holy Prophet Mohammed (PBUH). He is central to my thoughts, my beliefs, my actions, even my mere existence. I would much rather call myself a Mohammedan, because I respect the Holy Prophet (PBUH) to a degree just short of worship.

Naturally, anyone who insults my Holy Prophet (PBUH) is not going to be my friend and any cause, faith, individual, entity, or organization that condones, encourages, and especially commits such blasphemy is not going find me the least bit compassionate about its interests. I think I stated that very clearly.

Now, you can appreciate why certain Hindus, Qadianis, and even so-called Muslims and Pakistanis are on my shit list.

#155 Posted by _arjun5 on June 19, 2008 12:45:05 pm

{"and we all know what made salim change his views and become such a big defender of mo..it's the whole on again off again relationship he's had...with the bottle.. "}

Arjun,
I would like to stay away from discussing personal issues. Since you brought up the matter of the bottle, I am pleased to inform you that, thanks to my wife, I have not consumed any alcohol in over three years. When I made the comments sympathetic to Qadianis, I was abstaining from alcohol just as much as I avoid the stuff today. While I did drink frequently during my early youth, I was never an alcoholic and any charges of such connotation are baseless.

#153 Posted by Kulharee on June 19, 2008 12:35:40 pm

ahmadis are getting it from both sides...they wanted to build some big center in rural maryland and got turned down because the hicks don't like dem moozlims..and in muslim countries they're not muslims...

and we all know what made salim change his views and become such a big defender of mo..it's the whole on again off again relationship he's had...with the bottle..

Mr. Arjun,
Thank you for pointing out that I was neither a brainwashed nor a fanatical hater of Qadianis. When I did not know that Qadianis, like Mr. Kulharee and Mr. Banneditem, regularly and consistently insulted the Holy Prophet and Islam, I was, as a progressive Muslim, always in support of allowing people who call themselves Muslim to be called Muslim.

Unfortunately, since the time I posted my genuine pro-Qadiani sentiments, I have learned of some very disturbing beliefs and practices of these people. Therefore, thanks to the detestable behavior of people like Mr. Kulharee, I have to admit that I was wrong in my perception and sentiments that were expressed earlier and which you have graciously posted in my defense. Thank you, Sir.

Thanks Arjun, I wrote this over 2 years ago, and I somehow knew that things for Indonesian Muslims will get worse (I have a few Indonesian Ahmadi friends) and all our fears came true. Today, Ahmadis are being murdered in cold blood in Indonesia, and there is nothing in the world press to condemn what is going on there. After a while, one has to say enough is enough.

I honestly don’t hold Salim against changing his views. We all do. I am beginning to think like a militant myself.


Chuhay, take your head out of wherever it is.