Restoring the Civil Rights of Ahmadis

Salim (#199),

You continue to characterize Ahmadis as “enemies of Islam� … but fail to validate this. Your empty rhetoric reflects poorly on you.

You cite facts selectively. You insist that Osama does not define Islam … but kulharee’s comments are enough to paint all Ahmadis with a wide brush. Note that Ahmadi-Muslims have utmost respect for Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), but you continue to ignore this. What does this say about your double standards?

My interpretation of kulharee’s comments is based upon his own clarification … when I asked him to reevaluate his approach. I stand by my earlier assertion. Ummah’s behavior matches that of Abu Jehal and his stooges; Ahmadi-Muslims are walking in the footsteps of early Muslims. Deal with this however you choose to.

Merely claiming that “Qadianis are evil� is lame. You’ll need more than rhetoric, I am afraid. Your post is full of hot air and no substance. And this is a grave tragedy with ummah at large.
(sigh)

#198 Posted by sattar2 on June 24, 2008 11:41:43 am
Salim (#196),

By your criterion, the world should remain indebted to Osama for opening their eyes to real Islam. So don’t complain if Muslims get demonized as violent jihadis across the world. It is a race to the bottom … and the ummah is wining!

Kulharee is playing you like a banjo and you are responding in a predictable, immature manner. And this proves his point! My take is that … by the 7th century camel’s ass prophet that the ummah is following … he is referring to Abu Jehal. If that’s the case, I fully agree with the analogy, though not with his choice of words.

Unfortunately it is the ummah that is getting the broomstick treatment. Stop obsessing over Ahmadis and open your eyes to ground realities, you fool."}

Sattar Sahib,
I have been quite polite in our discussion; I request some reciprocity from you, sir. I just want to know what you enemies of Islam used for fuel for the 1400 years before Osama made his debut? If the world demonizes Muslims for the rhetoric and actions of UBL, there is a justifiable reason for that. Anytime, anyone uses Islam as a pretext for his/her behavior, people have a right to question the motives. It's up to mainstream Muslims to understand, categorize, and then either approve such behavior or condemn it outright. It is a fact that most mainstream Muslims have openly refuted Alkayda and its tactics.

Your peculiar interpretation of Kulharee's "camel's ass" profanity makes you an apologist for this blasphemer and is further evidence of Qadianis providing cover for each other - sometimes even playing good cop/bad cop to confuse the real issues.

My eyes are open and I will do my best to counter the evil that Qadianis have tried to spread to harm Islam, the Holy Prophet (PBUH), and the cause of Muslims. It is not a coincidence that on almost every issue affecting Muslims, the Qadianis seem to side with the enemies of Islam.

Salim (#196),

By your criterion, the world should remain indebted to Osama for opening their eyes to real Islam. So don’t complain if Muslims get demonized as violent jihadis across the world. It is a race to the bottom … and the ummah is wining!

Kulharee is playing you like a banjo and you are responding in a predictable, immature manner. And this proves his point! My take is that … by the 7th century camel’s ass prophet that the ummah is following … he is referring to Abu Jehal. If that’s the case, I fully agree with the analogy, though not with his choice of words.

Unfortunately it is the ummah that is getting the broomstick treatment. Stop obsessing over Ahmadis and open your eyes to ground realities, you fool.

#195 Posted by Kulharee on June 23, 2008 8:06:46 pm
{"...Chuhay, ...Your brain is still stuck in 6th century Arabia, and you think like a monkey. I believe that my prophet of Allah Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad came to reform Islam, ... Trust me, Ahmadis are not going to believe in garbage like Jesus coming down on a broomstick and landing in Damascus."}

Mr. Kulharee,
If you do not seek immediate and expert attention for your Tourette Syndrome affliction, rest assured that someday someone is going to find a more suitable use for that broomstick and it might get very painful for you. Shalom!

#193 Posted by sattar2 on June 23, 2008 4:40:34 pm

Salim (#190),

You are getting too obsessed with kulharee. ... Your view is childish and based on insecurities. Ahmadi-Muslims are not your problem. Ummah’s problem are goons like Osama, zeemax, and Urstruly … all too bent on blowing others up. Open your eyes, you idiot! Like I said, in some ways you used to be an intelligent man …"}

Sattar Sahib,
I have about as "thick a skull" and am as much an "idiot" as your Mirza Ghulam Ahmed is a "prophet" of Allah. Just because you pontificate something doesn't automatically make it accurate.

I am, however, indebted to Mr. Kulharee for opening my eyes regarding the "innocence" of the Qadianis. You may consider him an idiot and an embarrassment, but to many Muslims like me, he has decisively explained why the Government and people of Pakistan were justified in declaring the Qadianis to be non-Muslim.

Thank you for discussing this issue with me.

Sattar Sahib, shouldn’t the arguments between you and Salim Chuha not involve me? I can clarify my position directly to him as good as anyone else. There is no need to do it on my account.

Chuhay, do you have any pressing questions that you need to ask other than your hollow “respect� rhetoric? Your brain is still stuck in 6th century Arabia, and you think like a monkey. I believe that my prophet of Allah Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad came to reform Islam, and you don’t have to believe in that, but do not tell us what we can and what we wont believe in. Trust me, Ahmadis are not going to believe in garbage like Jesus coming down on a broomstick and landing in Damascus. That’s the stupidest belief. If you want to believe in garbage like that, that’s not our problem.

Re: # 189; Tahir, the Asadite writes:
[[YOU come from a village, you've said it yourself you Bradford 'paindoo'!]]

The pind's name is Manchester NOT Bradford; not every Pakistani in Britain lives in Bradford

I was referring to my ancestoral pind near Lyallpur (currently named after a late Saudi King) in the post you are referring to (as stated there too!)

btw; How did you know the term 'the village idiot' was meant to be for you?.....like I said before, your intelligence knows no bounds sir for figuring little detail like that!

Salim (#190),

You are getting too obsessed with kulharee. Also, you are trying too hard too extrapolate his comments on Ahmadi-Muslim beliefs. Step back and get a grip, for god’s sake.

1. Ahmadi-Muslims hold Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in utmost respect, as the most honorable, most exalted prophet of Allah Almighty, ever. You need to get this through your thick skull. Furthermore, what kulharee writes is his business; you should check with him and not with me.

2. If a “them vs. us� context exists in the head of an Ahmadi, it is his problem, not mine. Kulharee may be an idiot … and your obsession with him reflects more poorly on you.

3. Writings of Mirza Sahib, Ahamdi-Muslim beliefs, our khalifaa and entire jamaat, and each and every Ahmadi-Muslim that I’ve ever come across … all have complete and uncompromising respect for Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) … second only to Allah Almighty Himself. So I am not sure what “Qadiani circles� you are referring to.

4. Salim MiaN, what’s with this obsession with Kulharee? He is pushing your buttons and you are totally losing it!

And lastly, there’s nothing “bad� in associating prophets after Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). If Allah can raise a prophet, I can (should!) surely accept him. Your view is childish and based on insecurities. Ahmadi-Muslims are not your problem. Ummah’s problem are goons like Osama, zeemax, and Urstruly … all too bent on blowing others up. Open your eyes, you idiot! Like I said, in some ways you used to be an intelligent man …

...and here is Mr. Kulharee's reaction to my post #190. He posted his comment on my ilog:

Posted by Kulharee on Monday June 23, 2008 02:59 pm

Fuck you Mr. Chuhay and a lot of 6th century Arbi Camel lovers.

#173 Posted by Ranger8117 on June 21, 2008 3:09:04 am

{"Salim you a$$hole, where were you all these days ? Why are you avoiding unplugged?"}

Gujju,
I had taken some time off to address personal and work-related business. While I was away, I noticed that there was no point in exchanging nonsense with people on Unplugged.

You will be pleased to note that right-wing Muslim-hating and Paki-bashing Indians have taken over Chowk UP with the ardent support of some very pusillanimous spineless Injun-bum licking Paki minions.

Now, let's cheer for the Turks to make some Wienerschnitzels. :)

#175 Posted by sattar2 on June 21, 2008 5:44:16 am
{"Kulharee ...
I personally think you play with words but don’t mean anything nasty about the Prophet (pbuh); you probably do it just to annoy the ummah. This is not a good idea … as it creates ill will ... which translates into more persecution of Ahmadi-Muslims. That’s my 2 cents; I hope you’ll rethink."}



#184 Posted by Kulharee on June 22, 2008 12:34:37 pm

{"Nazi ki aulad, until you get our names rights, until you put Nabee Allah in front of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmadi (the leader of all Payghambers, and second only to Allah) until you address us with respect that we deserve, I refuse to entertain your silly stupid questions that you took out of a stupid 6th century Arbi camel's butthole (where your other beliefs also came out of)..."}

Sattar Sahib,
Despite your persistent and sensible advice to the contrary, Mr. Kulharee is adamant on continuing his insults against Our Holy Prophet (PBUH). In light of this obvious propensity to blasphemy, one must ask the following questions:

1. While Mr. Kulharee may not represent the entire community of the followers of the Qadiani religion, he is more than just a crackpot. He has written articles about the Qadiani religion and is the most ardent and vocal advocate for Qadiani rights on Chowk. Therefore, does he belong to a peculiar sect of Qadianis who condone the most vulgar and profane insults against Our Holy Prophet (PBUH)?

2. If Mr. Kulharee's tendency is to retaliate for abuse against Mirza Ghulam Ahmed with an immediate insult to Our Holy Prophet (PBUH), isn't it fair to say that in the "THEM VS US" context, at least for some Qadianis, Mirza Ghulam Ahmed belongs to Qadianis and The Holy Prophet (PBUH) belongs to Muslims?

3. If Mr. Kulharee so easily resorts to insulting the Holy Prophet (PBUH), isn't it fair to conclude that, at least in some Qadiani circles, it is permissible to resort to that type of vulgarity against the most sacred person in Islam?

4. Given these facts and defining Muslims as those who follow the religion of Prophet Mohammed (PBUH), isn't it obvious that even some Qadianis, of the type or sect represented by Mr. Kulharee, do not consider themselves to be Muslims or followers of the Holy Prophet (PBUH)?

It is bad enough to associate false "prophets" after Our Holy Prophet (PBUH), but to defile the sacred name of the founder of Islam is tantamount to provoking Muslims and taunting them to do something about it. May Allah have mercy on the Qadianis for their blasphemous, insidious, treacherous, and treasonous behavior.

Re: # 188 oye cheemaya
YOU come from a village, you've said it yourself you Bradford 'paindoo'!

Pathetic! Trying to win sympathy from unbelieving 'chamchas'!

Re: # 187; chalta mian

I am currently working on this project....needless to say it is time for a 'final solution' to the village idiot's problems!

btw...read # 186 too

Hahhahahah tahari cites circular argument...hahahahah....allah is the god and mohammed is the prophet of allah it says so in the quran...and quran is the word of allah because it says so in the quran...hahahaha talk about circular arguments. Sala chutiya!

Re: # 184; Kulharee

I replied to naqshbandi sahib on another board recently, when he was equally as aggrieved by the silly arguments (?) of this moron. For your information, and the information of the village idiot himself, I copy and paste my response here for all to see. Here it is in parentheses:

[naqshbandi sahib (Cc: Tahir Gul Hasan...the Asadite),

I see your distress and it pains me sir. I'd tell you a couple of very short stories to make the point I am going to make and it'd also clarify the position and status of your interlocutor in # 73.

Once upon a time in a place called Qadian, a man called Mirza Ghulam Ahmed was born (13th Feb, 1835 to be precise). Whilst growing up, he became increasingly dis-enchanted with the faith of his ancestors and in due course started a movement to attempt to reform this faith. This movement was called the "ahmaddiya movement in Islam" and it was launched in 1889. Subsequently, as it happens in matters of a religious bend, this message (along with Mirza sahib himself) got increasingly distorted and we have the current issues with having to declare them a heresy (initially) with subsequent ex-communication from the fold as we know it.

Second story goes like so. There was born in the land of (initially) Poland (place called Lwow) which is now called Lviv (and part of present day Ukraine) a man called Leopold Weiss, into a Hasidic Jewish family. He became increasingly dis-enchanted with the faith of his ancestors and subsequently adopted a new faith called Islam and changed his name to Mohammed Asad. He travelled extensively within the muslim world and saw first hand the plight of the people adherent to his new faith. He was also not happy with many aspects of this new faith and wrote a book called "message of the Quran" in the English language, inspired no doubt by the very original straight from "Loh-e-Mahfouz"....He perhaps had no intention of this but as these things evolve, started an almost new heresy within Islam. Hence his book was banned in the Kingdom (Islamdon) of Saudi Arabia, amongst other parts of the muslim world. He attracted some followers, nevertheless.

Moral: Upto the reader of the two stories written above.

As for the Conclusion; it is as follows:

The followers pf the former (MGAQ) are called "Ahmadis (Ahmadites)" or "Qadianis", after his place of birth; and the off-shoot faith is labelled as "Ahmadiyyat" or "Qadiyaniat".

By the same token, we call the followers of the latter heresy "Asadis (Asadites)" or perhaps "Ukrainis(?)" and the heresy itself can be called "Asadism" or "Ukrainism".

I hope this clarifies Tahir sahib's position for you.....whatever he may be, wahabbi he is not!

Question remains, does he remain a muslim by asserting that God's word was "incomplete" or "incomprehensable to the Ajami musalman" without Mohammed Asad's intervention! He is also on record here known to disregard "Ahadith" as a source of guidance on matters of a religious nature...therefore denying us of an important souce of history, not to mention an elaboration of the life (and lifestyle) of our Holy Prophet.

Perhaps you can decide whether we should believe "the Word of God" or "the Word of Mohammed Asad"!!]

Tahir ist ein Schwein, er isst Schweinefleisch wie ein Schwein. Genießt das Loch eines Schweins. Das chutiyya bummeln Notwendigkeiten gebummelt zu werden. Zeemadarchod bummeln bitte Tahir. Tahir, senden Ihre Mutter vorbei vom Hera mandi, gehört sie umdreht irgendeine große Dirne wie Tricks. Abd durch vorbei loswerden die Samenflecke von Zeemadarchod' s von Ihren Zähnen und säubern Ihr Arschloch, das sie vom verjährten Albumen reek

Nazi ki aulad, until you get our names rights, until you put Nabee Allah in front of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmadi (the leader of all Payghambers, and second only to Allah) until you address us with respect that we deserve, I refuse to entertain your silly stupid questions that you took out of a stupid 6th century Arbi camel's butthole (where your other beliefs also came out of). Be the man, show respect, and earn some in return. Until then, go and kill more Shias to earn Sawab. Even Nazis were more civil than people like you. You guys are swine, and the only ones filthier than you are the one who are influenced by.

Re: # 182 Qul Harry

"why did your people kill Imam Hussian in such a despicable manner, you Wahabi ....."

MY people? And who might those be? He was trapped by the lying Kufa-wallas. Three generations suffered because those responsible for these assassinations cheated and trapped them through promises of (fake) support.

And what's the hadith about tattooes, O wise one. I'm all ears....

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Re: # 176 Death Metal freak says:
"never claim to be an expert on Ahmadiyat (in fact far from it), and I am only a most humble Ahmadi (admittedly not a very good one)."

The tattooed animal has finally admitted openly at ChowQ!

Other Q-cumbers, please take note...

Re: # 175 Stutter-2
"And while I may be khatam-ul-idiot … surely I am not the last one"

Not 'may be', YOU ARE one, the way you create circular arguements. And rest assured, there will be others after you!

Re: # 175 Stutter-2

"Most muslims believe in the “last messenger� concept but fail to validate it. It seems that this belief crept into Islam at some point in time … but does not hold up when reviewed closely."

Which are these confused 'most Muslims'? Everyone is agreed except you Q-cumbers from across the border. And when did this 'creep into Islam' and who did it? Enlighten us O wise one, or just speak of the distortions and perversions cooked up by MGAQ!

You insisted on translating it as “last� … and went on to explain it as “God’s seal� and “God’s approval�. Do you even read before posting?"

I read my posts very carefully before sending. I WRITE you know! Perhaps you 'deliberatley missed' reading an earlier post on this 'seal' thing.

Qadianis read this khÄ?tam (end, conclusion, final, last) as khÄ?tim (seal)! The term ‘khatam’ has 8 forms, and is mentioned 8 times in the Qur’Ä?n. Go read and analyse, or ask your demented khalifa.

"prophets made wind blow and that they traveled at super fast speeds."

Again you did not read the exact descriptions in the Qur'an but rather started to jump needlessly. Haven't you read about Daud and Sulaiman (peace on them) being blessed with kingship, Prophethood, and great knowledge of nature's (Allah's) laws being placed at their disposal?

What do you understand reading 27:16 and 34:10?

Tell me O wise 'Q'?

Further reading:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wV-ze9wiIqw

Note: The referenced book is in Urdu

#175 sattar2
Quite eloquently Mirza Ghulam writes

Mirza Ghulam's Tirade against Jesus Christ(pbuh)
(In light of his own Writings)

Among his other claims, Mirza Ghulam also stated to be the Promised Messiah of the revelations and superior to Jesus(pbuh), the son of Mary(RA), in every aspect. However, when he became aware of the authentic teachings (Hadith) of our beloved Prophet Muhammad(SAW) confirming the fact that Jesus(pbuh) will descend before the end of this world, he had to resort to deception and treachery to misguide and impress the uninformed.

Naturally, all learned Muslims and Christians were disgusted that a person of such a questionable character would even dare to make such an outrageous claim. They could not reconcile Mirza's many faults with the perfection of the Messiah and refused to pay any attention to his claims. But, the claim to being the Messiah was an integral part of Mirza's satanic scheme to promote himself to prophethood; hence, he insisted in propagating his lies. Outraged Christians demanded that he perform miracles as Jesus(pbuh) had done and ridiculed him when he was unable to do so.

In return, Mirza resorted to making blasphemous statements about Jesus(pbuh), one of the greatest Prophets. Since Mirza was neither willing to correct his own moral and ethical flaws nor able to perform miracles, he could not have ever hoped to raise his own status to that of Jesus(pbuh) - whom he viewed as his competitor to messiahship. Instead, Mirza resorted to making desperate and slanderous remarks in an attempt to try to lower the status of Jesus(pbuh) to his own level!

Listed are some of the better known writings of Mirza Ghulam in this regard. I apologize, in advance, for any offense you might find at these writings - and hope that Allah(SWT) will forgive for having reproduced these blasphemous statements. Please be assured that no Muslim would hold these same beliefs.

Mirza Insults the Family of Jesus(pbuh)

* "Jesus's three paternal and maternal grandmothers were fornicators and prostitutes, from whose blood Jesus came into existence."(Anjam-i-Atham, Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 11, P. 291, addenda; Anjam-i-Atham, P. 9, appendix)
* "You may have tried to find a solution to my claims about the Messiah's parental and maternal grandmothers. I am tired of thinking. Up to now, no nice solution has occurred to me. What a glorious God is HE whose paternal and maternal grandmothers are of such repute?"(Nur-ul-Quran, Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 9, P. 394; Nur-ul-Quran, Vol. 2, P. 45)
* "Islam, unlike Christianity, does not teach us that God was born of a woman - and was fed by sucking blood from the womb of his mother for nine months - the blood which had the qualities of prostitutes like the daughters of Saba, Tamar, and Rabah." (Anjam-e-Athum, P. 41)
* "Jesus had an inclination for prostitutes perhaps due to his ancestral relationship with them..."(Anjam-i-Atham, Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 11, P. 291, addenda)

Mirza Insults Mary(RA)

* "Mary's eminence is such that she put off her marriage for a long time, but after constant pressure of the community leaders, and due to her pregnancy, she accepted to get married. However, people raise objection about how she could have been married while pregnant, that being against the teachings of the Torah. People also object to Mary breaching the oath of celibacy. People also question why Mary set the foundation of polygamy. In other words, why did Mary agree to marry Joseph the carpenter, despite his being already married."(Kasthi-i-Nuh, Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 19, P. 18; Kasthi-i-Nuh, P. 26)
* "Mary's hanging out with her fiancee Joseph before wedlock is a strong testimony of an Israelite custom.... Going out with fiancees among people in some frontier tribes had exceeded the limits to such an extent that sometimes pregnancy comes before wedlock, yet it is not looked down upon."(Ayyam-ul-Sulh, Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 14, P. 300)
* "... Because the Messiah, son of Mary, had worked as a carpenter with his father Joseph for twenty two years, we know that he was able to invent different sorts of machines and instruments."(Azalah-i-Auham, Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 3, P. 254)
* "Jesus's three paternal and maternal grandmothers were fornicators and prostitutes, from whose blood Jesus came into existence." [See: Mirza Insults the family of Jesus(pbuh)](Anjam-i-Atham, Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 11, P. 291, addenda)
* "Jesus, The Messiah, had four brothers and two sisters; all of them were his real brothers and sisters. I mean that they all were the offspring of Joseph and Mary."
(Kashti-i-Nuh, Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 19, P. 18)

Hope that everyone can readily see what Mirza Ghulam is insinuating here:

* It was common among Jews to go out with their fiancee and have premarital sex;
* Mary(RA) was a Jew and used to go out with his fiancee, Joseph;
* Mary(RA) broke her oath of celibacy (had multiple children);
* Joseph was the Father of Jesus(pbuh);
* Jesus(pbuh) had Paternal grandmothers (did Jesus(pbuh) even have a father?);
* Jesus(pbuh) had brothers/sisters and all were the children of Joseph and Mary(RA).

In short, Mirza insolently suggested that Mary(RA) had engaged in premarital sex with Joseph; and Jesus(pbuh) was the result of that fornication. Each one of these claims of Mirza are unfounded and untruthful charges.

Mirza Claims himself Superior to Jesus(pbuh)

* "To this nation, God sent His promised Messiah (Mirza), who is better than the first Messiah (Jesus) in all regards. I swear by God in whose hands my soul rests that if the Messiah, son of Mary, were my contemporary, he could not have done the works that I can do. Nor would he be able to match the signs (miracles) which I am bringing."
(Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 22, P. 152; Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, P. 148)
* "To this community, God sent the promised Messiah (Mirza) who is better in all glory that the first Messiah (Jesus) and calls this new Messiah Ghulam Ahmad."
(Dafi-ul-Bala, Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 18, P. 233; Dafi-ul-Bala P. 27)
* "After all, when God and His Apostle (Muhammad(SAW)) and all the Prophets have declared the supremacy of the second Messiah (Mirza) of this period due to his great achievements; then, it is a satanic act to question me 'Why do you proclaim yourself superior to the first Messiah, the son of Mary?'."(Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 22, P. 159)

* "Give up all mention of the son of Mary, because Ghulam Ahmad is superior to him."(Dafi-ul-Bala, Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 18, P. 240; Dafi-ul-Bala, P. 30)

Mirza Ghulam Qadiani abused Jesus(pbuh) and, in doing so, rejected verses of Quran speaking of Jesus(pbuh) and his family. He was no more than an opportunist and a fabricator.

May God forgive me for reproducing the profanities & indignities inflicted by Mirza Ghulam Ahmed & contained in publications outlined within parentheses above.

Mannerism of Mirza Ghulam Qadiani!
(In light of his own Writings)

Mirza Ghulam Qadiani did not have any scruples at using profanities to try to ridicule, intimidate, or threaten people who did not accept his false claim to prophethood.

Here are a few examples of his writings:

"My enemies are dirty swine and their women are more wretched than bitches."(Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 14, P. 53; Najmul Huda, P. 10, 53)

"All Muslims regard my books with reverence and care and benefit from their sublime thoughts except those who are the offspring of prostitutes (bastards); God has put a seal upon their hearts and they do not accept me."
(Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 5, Page 547-548; Mirat-o-Kamalat-i-Islam, P. 547; Aeena-e-Kamalat Islam, P.547-548)

[Mirza Ghulam translated this Arabic word as "Bastard" in
(Roohany Khazaen Vol. 11, P. 282)

"The one who has no belief in our ultimate victory is fond of becoming bastard and he is bound to be product of fornication." (Roohany Kazaen, Vol. 9, P. 31; Anwar ul Islam, P. 30)

"Are they prepared to swear? No, they'll never do so because they are liars and are derooting the corpse of falsehood like dogs."(Supplement to Anjam-e-Atham, P. 25; Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 11, P. 309)

His eulogy about Maulvi Saadullah Ludhianwi was:
"I look a sinful man among debauched who is more scoundrel and an execrated being like Satan... He who is called Saadullah by the ignorant is slanderer, wicked and a falsifier... You injured me, bastard. I won't be truthful if you won't have a disgraceful death."(Haqiqat-ul Wahi, P. 14-15; Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 22, P. 734-735)

"If Abdullah Athum is saved from death (as per Mirza's prophecy) and if all the world say the Christian was correct, then the bastard will not follow the right path."
(Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 9, P. 32)

"Abdul Haq is not content with our victories. He is itching to become a bastard."(Anwar-ul-Islam, P. 30)

"There is nothing more foul than a pig in the world. But the ulema who oppose me are more foul than pigs. "(Anjam-i-Atham, P. 21)

"You have inflicted pain on me with your foulness. You are not truthful. I pray that you die in shame, you son of a harlot."(Anjam-i-Atham, P. 288)

"This bastard of a doctor does not thread the straight path."(Anwar-ul-Islam, P. 30)

He called Shaikhul Islam Saanaullah of Amristar:"O, the son of wind, o traitor..." (Ijaz-i-Ahmadi, P. 43/77)

The puzzling thing is that he himself wrote:
"I have never abused anyone."(Moahiburahman, P. 18)

"He is worst who is abusive, his heart is as filthy as Latrine."(Sar-e-Sumain, P. 74)

"Abuses and rebukes are not the acts of a believer and a believer can not be a curser."(Azalat-ul-Auham, P. 66)

Is this how a Prophet or even a rightly guided individual would speak?
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#532 Posted by guru on June 12, 2008 8:57:45 pm
Re: # 529: Organized relegion is terrorism. In case of Islam it wants to terrorize using most powerful organization in a geography, ie, the state. That is why it wants to own the state. When it does not own a state it just vanishes.

Islam is also imperialism of Arabs. Islam is in Sindh for 1K years, but Sindhi kids do not study Islamic scriptures in Sindhi even today. When Islam is localized, the Arabic Islam fights with it. Shia is persianized Islam. In the last 50 years close ot 2M Shia perished because of this.

Is Ahmedi localized Islam in place (India) and time (19th & 20th century)? Is it like Bahai? Bahai borrowed ideas from Zarotrasthian, Hindu, Buddhist & Jain Dharmas. Is Ahmedi similar? Did it add few more chapters to Koran?

Sattar Sahib. Thanks for clarifying what I can’t to these people who don’t look beyond words. I never claim to be an expert on Ahmadiyat (in fact far from it), and I am only a most humble Ahmadi (admittedly not a very good one). It matters little to me if I am considered Muslim or Pakistani by anyone. I just see this whole thing as a human and civil rights matter.

tahir (#172),

Most muslims believe in the “last messenger� concept but fail to validate it. It seems that this belief crept into Islam at some point in time … but does not hold up when reviewed closely. It is sorta like “Jesus living in the sky�.

You yourself started with “khat’m� … insisted on translating it as “last� … and went on to explain it as “God’s seal� and “God’s approval�. Do you even read before posting?

You are now suggesting that prophets made wind blow and that they traveled at super fast speeds. I view it differently … but you are free to interpret Islam as you like (I wonder what Salim, zee, and Urstruly think about this; check with them - just for kicks).

But let’s not force our interpretation of Islam on each other, esp. by using the force of law and threats of imprisonment. That would be a step back for Islam and humanity. If you fail to appreciate this, then Quran, ahadith, and cutting-and-pasting … are all useless to you.

+++

Kulharee (#174) … note the words “may� and “hardly ever�!

My point is that … it matters little what a person, one of many, says. If Salim wants to understand Ahmadi views, he should take into account the views of large majority of Ahmadis, or better yet, read writings of Mirza Sahib. Kulharee and sattar may be idiots; but so what?? It seems he uses your posts as an excuse to validate his biases, which is a travesty - perhaps more for him than for you.

And while I may be khatam-ul-idiot … surely I am not the last one (grin).

I personally think you play with words but don’t mean anything nasty about the Prophet (pbuh); you probably do it just to annoy the ummah. This is not a good idea … as it creates ill will ... which translates into more persecution of Ahmadi-Muslims. That’s my 2 cents; I hope you’ll rethink.

“Kulharee may be in idiot … I hardly ever read and have little interest in his posts.�

Sattar Sahib, it may come as a huge shocker to you, but the feeling is mutual. You are trying to shove your head up these Chootiyas assholes whether they want it or not. If you think you need to convince some fcker on a website about Mirza Sahib, then you are not only an idiot, but may I say “Khatam-ul-idiot�, as in Stamp on all idiots. Now get lost. I am happy being defined as in idiot by those who refuse to see beyond the definitions. Who the fuck in the world cares who came before and who came after.

Salim you a$$hole, where were you all these days ? Why are you avoiding unplugged ?

Re: # 171 Stutter-2
"Muhammad (pbuh), Islam, Mirza Sahib..."

Mentioning MGAQ after God's last Rasul and Naby says it all for you! How dare you mention an imposter along with a truthful messenger of God? Mirza couldn't even fight with his own wife, leave alone the Bristish colonists!

"For Ahmadis, Mirza Sahib was a prophet just like Jesus, Solomon, David were prophets."

For Ahmadis, NOT Muslims, you Q-cumber!

MGAQ couldn't even accomplish a cent's worth for Muslims. Daud and Sulaiman (peace on them) were king Prophets, whereas MGAQ survived on British dole and fleecing of innocents. The winds did not blow as he commanded (he did pass a lot of wind for sure!) nor did he travel in a day the distance one could in a month (he did find a short-cut to Taj-e-Britannia)!

"I am not sure why you want to pitch Mirza Sahib against Muhammad (pbuh). What does one have to do with the other?"

You're UNSURE, you're nothing, and on Judgement Day, THIS will be your fate:

7:37
And who could be more wicked than they who attribute their own lying inventions to God or give the lie to His messages? Whatever has been decreed to be their lot [in life] will be theirs" - till there shall come unto them Our messengers to cause them to die, [and] shall say, "Where, now, are those beings whom you were wont to invoke beside God?"

And [those sinners] will reply, "They have forsaken us!" - and [thus] they will bear witness against themselves that they had been denying the truth.

7:38
[And God] will say: "Join those hosts of invisible beings and humans who have gone before you into the fire!"

[And] every time a host enters [the fire], it will curse its fellow-host - so much so that, when they all shall have passed into it, one after another, the last of them will speak [thus] of the first of them: "O our Sustainer! It is they who have led us astray:. give, them, therefore, double suffering through fire!"

He, will reply: "Every one of you deserves double suffering - but you know it not."

7:39
And the first of them will say unto the last of them: "So you were in no wise superior to us! Taste, then, this suffering for all [the evil] that you were wont to do!"

VERILY, unto those who give the lie to Our messages and scorn them in their pride, the gates of heaven shall not be opened; and they shall not enter paradise any more than a twisted rope can pass through a needle's eye: for thus do We requite such as are lost in sin. (7:41) Hell will be their resting-place and their covering as well: for thus do We requite the evildoers.

Salim (#165),

Your post lacks matter and is full of rhetoric and excuses.

Your views about Ahmadis are based on two chowkies! Is that all? You should read writings of Mirza Sahib or check some references before jumping to conclusions. Ask other Ahamdis if you are not sure. Unless you do that, you are merely making excuses to validate your biases. And this is a shame!

I consider myself an Ahmadi-Muslim. I sometimes abbreviate it as an “Ahmadi� to get the point across. I hope you can come up with something more substantial than this.

Your argument about “overwhelming majority of Muslims� lacks substance. You yourself have formed your opinion on basis of two chowkies … while ignoring millions of Ahmadis. What does “overwhelming majority of Ahmadi-Muslims� think of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)? What did Mirza Sahib say on this issue? I hope you have the integrity to think through.

Furthermore, “overwhelming majority of Muslims� may believe what makes sense to them. And I follow Islam the way it makes sense to me … without forcing my interpretation on others. Unfortunately, this is where we part ways.

You continue to claim “finality� … but would not attempt to validate this belief of yours. And yet, you are all to willing to force it on others! I hope you see the irony!

If you base your views on two chowkies, don’t complain if Muslims get demonized because of Osama. You may condemn him … but that does not count! Admittedly, he has struck a chord with numerous Muslims. Simply check with Zee and Urstruly, right here on chowk. Judging by your own criterion, what does this say about Islam?

I have often underscored the utmost respect Ahmadis have for Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) … but you remain unconvinced. What do you want? Blood? Or are you merely making excuses? Asking someone to prove his love … while harboring the kind of “keena� and suspicion that you do, is extremely low for a human. You should be ashamed of yourself, Salim.

Kulharee may be in idiot … I hardly ever read and have little interest in his posts. There are several fanatics on chowk and greater cyber space who make hateful comments about Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), Islam, Mirza Sahib … and I ignore them too. I hope you have something more substantial here …

For Ahmadis, Mirza Sahib was a prophet just like Jesus, Solomon, David were prophets. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) will remain the most exalted prophet ever … but I am not sure why you want to pitch Mirza Sahib against Muhammad (pbuh). What does one have to do with the other? You are the one who is being insecure and selfish here … to the point where you want to imprison others over religious differences. And this is the travesty of the ummah in this day and age.

+++

Re #167:

Your views are baseless to begin with (start with the Finality part) … so it matters little what you do or do not think.

Once again, get over the issue of “several Qadianis� … unless you want to accept Islam as defined by “several Muslims�.

yar salim the joos and hindians are honest about their tribalism...they dont talk universalism but employ tribal techniques. nothing wrong with tribalism..its very effective

# 165 {"That often happens when one learns knew facts that one"}

should be

That often happens when one learns new facts that one

Re: # 143 Cartoon
Is that the same lensman who worked on the cartoons after capturing you unplugged on film as a 'cartoon'?

Chaiti duss mainoN Bashiraya...

#161 Posted by sattar2 on June 19, 2008 10:35:39 pm

Sattar Sahib,
Just as a matter of clarification, my views concerning Qadianis not being Muslims are not meant to necessarily convey any connotations regarding good/bad or Pakistani/non-Pakistani attributes.

You, even as a Qadiani, may be a very good person and Chacha Sahib, as a genuine Muslim, for all we know, could be a not so good person. A Qadiani soldier as a patriotic Pakistani would be a better Pakistani than a Sunni or Shia Muslim Pakistani who is a traitor selling out to Indians. My comments are strictly based on behavior and beliefs expressed by several Qadianis.

#158 Posted by Kulharee on June 19, 2008 1:11:37 pm

{"Salim, there is something inherently wrong with you, that’s why I don’t blame you. People usually start drinking after they get married. You just do everything backwards. There is hope that one day you will convert to the real Islam – Ahmadiyyah."}

Mr. Kulharee,
Don't hold your breath. There is a far greater chance of you becoming a nun than I becoming a Qadiani.

#161 Posted by sattar2 on June 19, 2008 10:35:39 pm

{"Salim (#133),
You used to be an intelligent man in a lot of ways; in a lot of ways that’s no longer the case. You’ve mischaracterized the issue, your facts are incorrect, and your reasoning is lame. Other than that you may have a point!"}

Sattar Sahib,
I am sorry to disappoint you with my loss of intelligence. That often happens when one learns knew facts that one did not know before and those who formerly agreed with one no longer find one so pleasing - or rather intelligent. :)

My experience is based on, not one but two, self-proclaimed Qadiani Chowkies. They have openly insulted the Holy Prophet (PBUH) in the most vulgar and profane words and depictions imaginable. Because one of them is a frequent writer on Qadiani issues, I must attribute his blasphemy on some basis of Qadiani propensity for insulting the Holy Prophet (PBUH). Perhaps some Qadianis perceive the Holy Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) as a rival for Mirza Ghulam Ahmed's claim to being Allah's Messenger (Nauzbillah - God forbid - Aztaghfirullah).

{"Merely claiming that Ahmadi beliefs violate Islamic principles … is not enough. You need to validate this view. As far as I know, Quran and ahadith both support continuation of prophethood. What you and your ullema believe is your business, not mine. However, when you criticize others, you need to validate your viewpoint."}

Just the fact that you call yourself "Ahmadi" is a validation that you follow Mirza Ghulam Ahmed rather than the Holy Prophet Mohammed (PBUH). You may consider Our Holy Prophet (PBUH) as some sort of an obscure Prophet Jonah or Zakaria, but you certainly are not among his followers like the overwhelming majority of Muslims. If your beliefs were Muslim beliefs, you would not be referring to them as "Ahmadi beliefs."

My viewpoints are not influenced by any Ulema and I certainly don't need a convoluted misinterpretation of the Holy Koran or some obscure Hadith to corrupt my beliefs. God knows, enough people are doing that in the name of "Islam" already. Apparently, a devious and insidiously anti-Islamic person can justify murder, oppression of women, violence against women, slaughter of unbelievers, and even illiteracy by quoting some out of context verse of the Holy Koran or a Hadith manufactured as a pretext. The finality of the Prophethood of Our Holy Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) is the second most important belief of Muslims and NOTHING is going to convince us of the contrary.

There have been numerous false "messengers" in history and the mental institutions of the Islamic world, especially in UP, India were always caring for one Abraham, or Jesus, or Moses, or even Adam.

{"You cannot justifiably project comments of a few (one?) people as views of the whole community. Would it be fair if Muslims were demonized on basis of the views of Osama? Think carefully before responding. Check the writings of Mirza Sahib and Ahmadi-Muslim views on Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) before shooting off your mouth."}

Of course I can learn from the beliefs and expression of one, two, or more Qadianis as a metric for the beliefs of this religion. Either the profane Qadianis represent some other sect of your religion or you just act in a more civilized manner. In any case you have never publicly condemned or even disagreed with their profanity and insults. As for Osama or Zawahiri and others, many Muslims, including me, have openly condemned and rejected those extremist and clearly un-Islamic views. To me these irrational, bloody, and mistaken fools are still Muslim because they have not denied God or denied Our Holy Prophet (PBUH) as the final Messenger of Allah. This should give you an indication of where you rank.

{"In Quran Allah uses terms “Messenger� and “Prophet� for Muhammad (pbuh) and others. You are not in a position to trademark these terms and limit their use. Quran is your Book just as much as mine, Allah is your God just as much as mine, Muhammad (pbuh) is your prophet just as much as mine. You cannot take away my right to believe in them … you cannot force me to consider myself a non-Muslim."}

You yourself have taken away your "right" to be called Muslims, by corrupting the message of Islam, insulting the Holy Prophet (PBUH), spreading disinformation about Islam to the world, and trying to dismantle the religion from within. The Muslim Ummah has recognized this malicious attitude and has correctly branded you as non-Muslim. Of course Allah is everyone's God - even of those who don't believe in Him. Also, the Holy Prophet (PBUH) is everyone's prophet - even of those who dump garbage upon him, including Qadianis who associate false "prophets" after him and hurl insults and profanity upon his name.

Sattar Sahib,
If a Muslim disrespects Mirza Ghulam Ahmed and some Qadianis respond with insults against the Holy Prophet (PBUH) as retaliation against Muslims, doesn't it follow that the Qadianis must consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmed as theirs and the Holy Prophet (PBUH) as the Muslims'? So much for your statement about the Holy Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) being YOUR prophet as much as mine.

{"Your claims of exclusive rights over divinity will drag us to back to the Dark Ages. You may want to go there; I don’t.

No one is asking you to have “respect and affection� for Mirza Sahib. Neither am I asking non-Muslims to have respect and affection for Prophet Muhamamd (pbuh). People believe what they will … and life goes on."}

Sattar Sahib,
Why are Qadianis so hung up on the status of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed as a "prophet" or a "messenger?" There have been numerous reformers in Islamic history and most of them were neither insecure nor selfish to demand a status equaling that of Our Holy Prophet (PBUH). If Qadianis were genuine reformers, they should have impressed the Muslim community with their reforms and not put the issue of "prophethood" as their main reform. Ibn-e-Rushd, Ibn-e-Sina, Jaffer Al Sadiq, Jalaluddin Rumi, Moeenuddin Chishti, Saleemuddin Chishti, and many others tried to reform Islam but not one of them was selfish or stupid enough to demand "prophethood." When Bahaullah in Iran attempted this, the Baha’is themselves chose to leave Islam rather than insult their former religion by insisting that Muslims accept their leader as a prophet.

{"You may consider Ahmadis heretics - that’s your business. But you go too far when you support imprisoning Ahmadis for considering themselves Muslims. Your argument based on “laws of democratically elected government� would also justify legalized racial discrimination against African Americans. I hope you see the futility, nay - the dangers, of your views."}

Given the facts about Mirza Ghulam Ahmed claiming to be a "prophet" or "messenger" of Allah, I do not consider Qadianis to be heretics - I consider them to be non-Muslims and therefore deserving of the same courtesy, safeguards, and respect that I would have for Jews, Hindus, Christians, Buddhists, and Sikhs. I will not say that you are wrong, false, or mistaken - I will just say that you are not Muslim. The Catholic Church would have done far worse to stamp out deviations from what they consider mainstream. There were many "crusades" against Arians and other forms of heresy. I think that Islam has been far kinder to its aberrations - the Druzes, Alawites, Kharajites, and Wahabbis have not suffered as much as their Christian counterparts. But of course, the Qadianis have gone far far beyond these aberrations.

#163 Posted by jang on June 20, 2008 5:03:15 am

{"salim yar among its many good properties which make islam whole and true, tribalism is one of them. islam we know has its roots in tribalism of arabia. so leaving a tribe by an individual is no problem. but weakening the tribe is correctly seen as a potential mortal blow and it therfore treated as treason."}

Jang,
Almost all human existence is rooted in some sort of tribalism - especially Judaism (12 tribes etc...)and even Hinduism (color coded caste totem pole, etc...), so let's not attach specific tribal attributes to Islam. On the contrary, Islam was among the first international movements to erase tribal, ethnic, and caste distinctions.

As for leaving Islam, if people didn't make a big deal of their departure there would be few problems. Our own Hamidumdum Sahib has been long gone and, as far as we can tell, he is still alive and kicking. Only the people who want to gain notoriety, some profits from mediocre books and TV appearances, or to claim all kinds of asylum-related advantages, sound their departure with trumpets and drums.

Don't ask don't tell would be the proper approach to leaving an association with which one no longer wants any connection. A person can be a Qadiani without having to draw attention to his/her affliction by insulting Islam, its Holy Prophet (PBUH), and its symbols.

{Jang, I can leave Islam anytime I want to and there will be no consequence. }

salim yar among its many good properties which make islam whole and true, tribalism is one of them. islam we know has its roots in tribalism of arabia. so leaving a tribe by an individual is no problem. but weakening the tribe is correctly seen as a potential mortal blow and it therfore treated as treason.

sattar2,

You're still trying? You and others should stop blaming Pakistan/Saudia etc. The Qadiani issue stands decided OIC through unanimous vote way back and a year before the Pakistan ex-communication.

Salim (#133),

You used to be an intelligent man in a lot of ways; in a lot of ways that’s no longer the case. You’ve mischaracterized the issue, your facts are incorrect, and your reasoning is lame. Other than that you may have a point!

Merely claiming that Ahmadi beliefs violate Islamic principles … is not enough. You need to validate this view. As far as I know, Quran and ahadith both support continuation of prophethood. What you and your ullema believe is your business, not mine. However, when you criticize others, you need to validate your viewpoint.

You cannot justifiably project comments of a few (one?) people as views of the whole community. Would it be fair if Muslims were demonized on basis of the views of Osama? Think carefully before responding. Check the writings of Mirza Sahib and Ahmadi-Muslim views on Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) before shooting off your mouth.

In Quran Allah uses terms “Messenger� and “Prophet� for Muhammad (pbuh) and others. You are not in a position to trademark these terms and limit their use. Quran is your Book just as much as mine, Allah is your God just as much as mine, Muhammad (pbuh) is your prophet just as much as mine. You cannot take away my right to believe in them … you cannot force me to consider myself a non-Muslim.

Your claims of exclusive rights over divinity will drag us to back to the Dark Ages. You may want to go there; I don’t.

No one is asking you to have “respect and affection� for Mirza Sahib. Neither am I asking non-Muslims to have respect and affection for Prophet Muhamamd (pbuh). People believe what they will … and life goes on.

You may consider Ahmadis heretics - that’s your business. But you go too far when you support imprisoning Ahmadis for considering themselves Muslims. Your argument based on “laws of democratically elected government� would also justify legalized racial discrimination against African Americans. I hope you see the futility, nay - the dangers, of your views.

Re: # 140; Tahir sahib

I talk about my parents' 'disappointment' at me interacting with "wank-pots" on this site and you become all defensive; why?

How do you know I was referring to you and not someone else?

I must take my hat off to your perceptiveness sir! You are far cleverer than I thought

Salim....if it's not the booze, then there's something seriously wrong with you..saying you were an alcoholic is actually a complement...if not the booze, you have some serious mental disease..



#75 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on April 7, 2006 12:21:52 pm

Mullah Atif2,
I am not surprised to read this rhetoric posted by you. You are uttering the same accursed Wahabbi mantra that is destroying Islam. While not killing Shias, your ilk is going around preaching mischief and intolerance. When will you guys grow up and stop dividing Islam into little pieces of carrion that will be easily consumed by vultures? First Ahmadis, then Ismailis, then Asna Ashuri Shias, then Alawites, then Druze, and finally when you run out of ``enemies,`` you will pick on each other. Shame on your bigotry, intolerance, and hatred. The day is not far when the liberal, learned, and responsible Muslims retrieve our religion from you guys and send you packing to hell. We all know how you have been the primary cheerleader for the insurgents in Iraq that blow up Shia holy places, kill innocent people randomly, and take hostages - even cutting some of their throats in front of a video camera to emphasize their piety.




#85 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on April 7, 2006 12:57:25 pm
#81, Kulaharee {``They will lay down their lives to protect us Ahmadis from these Mullahs``}

Kul,
While I detest you personally, I will defend with my life your right to call yourself a Muslim, an Elk, a Moose, or a member of any club that refuses to let you in. I for one would never join a club that is willing to have me as a member.

Salim, there is something inherently wrong with you, that’s why I don’t blame you. People usually start drinking after they get married. You just do everything backwards. There is hope that one day you will convert to the real Islam – Ahmadiyyah.

#155 Posted by _arjun5 on June 19, 2008 12:45:05 pm
{"and we all know what made salim change his views and become such a big defender of mo.."}

Arjun,
By now you may have realized that I am a devout, loyal, grateful, and genuine follower of the Holy Prophet Mohammed (PBUH). He is central to my thoughts, my beliefs, my actions, even my mere existence. I would much rather call myself a Mohammedan, because I respect the Holy Prophet (PBUH) to a degree just short of worship.

Naturally, anyone who insults my Holy Prophet (PBUH) is not going to be my friend and any cause, faith, individual, entity, or organization that condones, encourages, and especially commits such blasphemy is not going find me the least bit compassionate about its interests. I think I stated that very clearly.

Now, you can appreciate why certain Hindus, Qadianis, and even so-called Muslims and Pakistanis are on my shit list.

#155 Posted by _arjun5 on June 19, 2008 12:45:05 pm

{"and we all know what made salim change his views and become such a big defender of mo..it's the whole on again off again relationship he's had...with the bottle.. "}

Arjun,
I would like to stay away from discussing personal issues. Since you brought up the matter of the bottle, I am pleased to inform you that, thanks to my wife, I have not consumed any alcohol in over three years. When I made the comments sympathetic to Qadianis, I was abstaining from alcohol just as much as I avoid the stuff today. While I did drink frequently during my early youth, I was never an alcoholic and any charges of such connotation are baseless.

#153 Posted by Kulharee on June 19, 2008 12:35:40 pm

ahmadis are getting it from both sides...they wanted to build some big center in rural maryland and got turned down because the hicks don't like dem moozlims..and in muslim countries they're not muslims...

and we all know what made salim change his views and become such a big defender of mo..it's the whole on again off again relationship he's had...with the bottle..

Mr. Arjun,
Thank you for pointing out that I was neither a brainwashed nor a fanatical hater of Qadianis. When I did not know that Qadianis, like Mr. Kulharee and Mr. Banneditem, regularly and consistently insulted the Holy Prophet and Islam, I was, as a progressive Muslim, always in support of allowing people who call themselves Muslim to be called Muslim.

Unfortunately, since the time I posted my genuine pro-Qadiani sentiments, I have learned of some very disturbing beliefs and practices of these people. Therefore, thanks to the detestable behavior of people like Mr. Kulharee, I have to admit that I was wrong in my perception and sentiments that were expressed earlier and which you have graciously posted in my defense. Thank you, Sir.

Thanks Arjun, I wrote this over 2 years ago, and I somehow knew that things for Indonesian Muslims will get worse (I have a few Indonesian Ahmadi friends) and all our fears came true. Today, Ahmadis are being murdered in cold blood in Indonesia, and there is nothing in the world press to condemn what is going on there. After a while, one has to say enough is enough.

I honestly don’t hold Salim against changing his views. We all do. I am beginning to think like a militant myself.


Chuhay, take your head out of wherever it is.

#148 Posted by Kulharee on June 19, 2008 12:04:12 pm
{"
Good detective work there Colombo. Now tell me why do Shias curse Ayesha? I personally don’t have any problem with that. I say let people be people."}

Mr. Kulharee,
Thank you for agreeing that you are a confirmed LIAR. The disagreement between Shias and Sunnis and Shias and other Shias is over succession for the positions of Khalifa and Imam. This is a matter that does not affect the core beliefs of Muslims, unlike the Qadiani assertion of having Mirza Ghulam Ahmed as a "prophet" and "messenger" of Allah.

Individuals may curse various figures in Islamic history, but that is not sanctioned nor approved by Shia religious leaders. Insulting the Holy Prophet (PBUH) and associating false "prophets" with the religion he formed are not trivial expressions of approval or disapproval for Muslims. ALL Muslims agree that the Holy Prophet (PBUH) is the central person in the religion of Islam and is the LAST Messenger of Allah.


{"Explain this to me:"}

I will try, but your comprehension of rational explanations is characteristically below average.

{"- which community in Pakistan is being persecuted (Ahmadis or Sunnis???)"}
In Pakistan, all communities are persecuted due to military rule, mindless suicide bombings, and lack of adherence to civilized manner of interaction among diverse groups. Having said that, it is correct to state that ALL minorities in Pakistan, including the Qadianis, Hindus, Sikhs, and Christians are better protected physically and materially in comparison to Muslims in India, especially in Gujarat and Mumbai.

{"- which community is singled out in terms of legislation (Ahmadis or Sunnis???)"}

Again, all communities are suffering from the lack of effective legislation, and more importantly, the lack of enforcement of existing laws. If you are specifically referring to the 1974 legislation declaring Qadianis to be non-Muslims, then you must appreciate the wisdom of that act. It is far better to resolve the dispute through legislation than to fight it out in the streets. The overwhelming majorities of Pakistanis and Muslims do not consider Qadianis to be Muslim - thanks to their blasphemous statements against the Holy Prophet (PBUH) and their insistence on having Mirza Ghulam Ahmed as a "prophet."

{"- which community is discriminated against in Pakistan (Ahmadis or Sunnis???)"}

If anyone is discriminated in Pakistan, it is the poor, the uneducated, and the lower classes. Qadianis, because of their stature as Punjabis, albeit non-Muslims, have a much higher standard of living than the rural Muslim masses in Sindh, NWFP, Baluchistan.

{"- which community cant write a Kalma on its mosque (nor can call it a mosque)"}

Naturally, as non-Muslims and proven blasphemers against the Holy Prophet (PBUH) and Islam, Qadianis are not allowed to ridicule the Last Messenger (PBUH) and his religion. It is only rational that insulting the Kalima or the Muslim place of worship by mimicking them and infringing upon these traditional symbols of Islam should be prohibited in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

{"and an idiot like you is worried about some stupid cartoons. Wao. You sure have your priorities very straight."}

Now, you get to the crux of the problem. This is the area where Qadianis and Muslims differ distinctly. The sanctity of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) is of the highest priority for almost all Muslims. To me, the name and stature of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) are more important than Pakistan, Turkey, Iran, Saudi Arabia, the UN, or any concept other than God Himself.

and kul....

http://www.chowk.com/interacts/10510/2/0/a

you're welcome..

BTW: Kulharee...here's something for you...



#43 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on April 7, 2006 10:11:53 am
Feroz Qutabshahi, {``What needs to be done is to expose the state-sanctioned and foreign-sponsored (Saudi Arabia) movement to persecute Ahmadis and other religious minorities in Pakistan and elsewhere. ``}

Qutabshahi Sahib,
Thank you for writing an excellent and powerful article that explains why Zia-ul-Haq and Bhutto are receiving their just reward in hell. I have always considered Ahmadis to be genuine Muslims, and more importantly, very decent human beings. I have always found it amusing that for partition purposes, Pakistan has always claimed that Gurdaspur, then heavily populated by Ahmadis, was a ``Muslim`` majority area, but for internal Pakistani political reasons, Ahmadis are not Muslim. Another way to say the same thing is that in 1947 Ahmadis were Muslims but in 1974 they stopped being Muslims.

The simplest solution would be to issue an apology to all Ahmadis, invite them back as Muslims, and then to promptly pass the same laws against the evil Wahabbis - expelling their posteriors from Islam, and hopefully from humanity one day. :)

#134 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on June 18, 2008 3:27:53 pm


Your profanity against the Holy Prophet (PBUH)


You've gone from calling him "Mo(Pbuh)" to capitalizing the H and P...

Good detective work there Colombo. Now tell me why do Shias curse Ayesha? I personally don’t have any problem with that. I say let people be people. Explain this to me:

- which community in Pakistan is being persecuted (Ahmadis or Sunnis???)
- which community is singled out in terms of legislation (Ahmadis or Sunnis???)
- which community is discriminated against in Pakistan (Ahmadis or Sunnis???)
- which community cant write a Kalma on its mosque (nor can call it a mosque)

and an idiot like you is worried about some stupid cartoons. Wao. You sure have your priorities very straight.

#145 Posted by Kulharee on June 19, 2008 11:53:30 am
{"Chuhay, now all of a sudden you go to UP? I thought you said you didn’t go there."}

Mr. Kulharee,
I did not go to UP, MP, AP, or CP. I was alerted about that detestable act of your Qadiani friend by another Chowkie. You guys really know how to make enemies and influence people - although not always in the manner favorable to your religion.

By the way, I noticed that you still haven't obtained treatment for your Tourette Syndrome affliction. Please don't delay it any more.

#126 Posted by Kulharee on June 18, 2008 11:19:20 am

{"#119 Chuhya, somehow I find that very hard to believe. No Ahmadi will make friends with someone who curses the wives of the Prophet. Can you categorically state that you respect all wives of the Prophet? Hypocrite."}

Mr. Kulharee,
I am going to prove that you are a liar:

FACT: Mr. Chaltahai is a very good friend of yours and a drinking buddy. You know him personally and socialize with him.

FACT: Mr. Chaltahai has frequently insulted BOTH the Holy Prophet (PBUH) and his wife Hazrat Ayesha. He has used numerous sexually derogatory references to both of them as part of his "Mo & Ayesha" barrage of insults meant to provoke Muslims. You have never criticized him for this and have also joined him in this blasphemy.

FACT: You are a self-proclaimed Qadiani and have written articles on Chowk regarding the Qadiani religion and people.

Therefore, either you are lying or you are not a Qadiani or Mr. Chaltahai is not your friend.

Oh yes, I can categorically state that I wholeheartedly respect the Holy Prophet and his family - including all of his wives.

Chuhay, now all of a sudden you go to UP? I thought you said you didn’t go there. I am sure you are aware of the lovely posts open everyday (there’s a new one waiting just for you) disrespecting of MY faith. Go check it out.

#136 Posted by Kulharee on June 18, 2008 4:29:57 pm

{"Blind Chuhay, giving lip service to Mohammad is not really showing him respect, but fighting for injustice against minorities is a much bigger respect you can show to him. You are just an idiot brainwashed monkey without a clue. Here we have a community being persecuted, students being expelled because of their beliefs, and all idiots like you can worry about is, oh but they don’t show respect to our prophet. Jackass. Here, here's a little respect for your prophet."}

Mr. Kulharee,
I am very disappointed to note your persistently uncivilized and vulgar manner of interaction. Perhaps your propensity for profanity is a personal affliction rather than a consequence of your religious beliefs.

As for your continued insults regarding Our Holy Prophet Mohammed (PBUH), I am sure that you have seen the horrible cartoon posted on Chowk UP by another Qadiani, your good friend Banneditem. That distasteful illustration depicts the notorious Danish caricature of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) in a turban. The more despicable feature is the enhancement by your friend of two monkeys (AZTAGHFIRULLAH) urinating on the turbaned person who is supposed to be our Holy Prophet (PBUH). If this represents the respect and regard you have for our Holy Prophet (PBUH), I can understand why the overwhelming majority of Muslims and Pakistanis detest you and your coreligionists of the Qadiani faith. Shame on you!

Nazi, my photo was shot by a Danish photographer. Glad you liked it. Would you like me to post his other celebrated works? For a Wahabi you are pretty docile. I like it when you take your dogma to the max. It shows in your interacts, the language you use, and in the imprudent garbage you write. What’s your fascination with Q-cucumbers? Did you sit on one today?

CHOWK is now called CHOWQ!

Why? Because Q-men from Planet Rabwah have hijacked it!

correction to my last transmission:

Do them a favour, and stay AWAY from this men's room.

Re: # 137 way cheemaya

Hai hai tainoN!!

"My parents are far more likely to get disappointed in me for holding dialogues with complete wank-pots on this site!"

Do them a favour, and stay from this men's room.

Re: # 130 Metal Freak

Have you looked at your own photo on CHOWK, complete with a devil's sign (a clenched fist with index & little fingers sticking up)?

Do Q-cumbers look like the non-edible (for us Muslims) animal you resemble?

None of your power-chords have any real power....

Piece.

Re: # 128 Hey Dairy!

By posting this THING twice, you make it sound like I contracted double pneumonia!

What made YOU throw up twice? Hey, watch while you do that!

Re: # 124; Tahir
[[Ah....how your parents will hate what you write here?]]

My parents are far more likely to get disappointed in me for holding dialogues with complete wank-pots on this site!

Blind Chuhay, giving lip service to Mohammad is not really showing him respect, but fighting for injustice against minorities is a much bigger respect you can show to him. You are just an idiot brainwashed monkey without a clue. Here we have a community being persecuted, students being expelled because of their beliefs, and all idiots like you can worry about is, oh but they don’t show respect to our prophet. Jackass. Here, here's a little respect for your prophet.

#108 Posted by jang on June 17, 2008 2:31:00 pm
{"yar salim, the quadianis were recruiting from muslims. IF they started with disclaimer that they were proposing something which is not islam, they would not have gotten very far at all, so they chose this approach imo. it is very dangerous for folks to leave islam or porpose leaving islam."}

Jang,
Very good point about the disinformation perpetrated by the Qadiani leaders. If they openly and upfront informed confused Muslims about their beliefs regarding their "prophet" Mirza Ghulam Ahmed and their license to be profane, vulgar, lewd, and disrespectful about Our Holy Prophet (PBUH), I doubt that they would be getting many supporters among Muslims. They deliberately present themselves as a reformist movement (the so-called Ahmadiya Movement in Islam). Very few Muslims want to be out of the mainstream of Islam - and not all of us are afraid of the unpleasant consequences to which you are obviously alluding.

Jang, I can leave Islam anytime I want to and there will be no consequence. It's only trouble-seeking cartoonists, profiteering mediocre novelists, and "in your face" Islamophobes who run into the unpleasant consequences.

{"#132 Posted by Kulharee on June 18, 2008 3:14:00 pm "}

{"Mr. Blind Chuhay, here's my latest vulgarity, profanity, and very lewd statements about YOUR and YOURS alone Holy Prophet (PBUH). It is on UP, and I have started many more. Please be nice to me. Thanku."}

Kulharee,
Please learn to be respectful. If you cannot control your Tourette Syndrome issue, please seek some professional assistance. Your profanity against the Holy Prophet (PBUH) is despicable and renders you as the least attractive poster boy for Qadiani causes. I don't understand the relevance of your nonsense regarding your reference to some debate on Chowk UP. I do not interact in that sewer you call your second home.

#107 Posted by Publius on June 17, 2008 2:20:09 pm
Salim_chauhan,

{"I hope you will allow that there are differences of opnion on what and what does not constitute disinformation about Islam(even when some opinions may be more objective). The question is how to handle those differences ? In other words if a Qadiani thinks that his view of Islam is correct and if somebody disagrees then how is this difference to be resolved or handled ?"}

Dear Publius,
It's very easy to handle these differences. The Qadianis' belief in their "prophet" is a direct rejection of Islam's second most important statement of faith. Therefore, the Qadianis constitute a separate religion and are certainly entitled to all the rights and privileges of a religious minority. They must stop insisting that they are a "sect" of Islam. Almost ALL believing Muslims would reject them as members of the Muslim community. There has never been and there is no difference of opinion among Muslims when it comes to the position of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) as the FINAL Messenger of God.

{"Should it be resolved by the state, by the Government imposing what is considers to be the right view or should this be left to be resolved at the level of individuals i.e any individual is free to believe that Qadianis are not true muslims, just as another individual is free to believe that they are.

If you think the state should impose it's view then does it not follow that the state has the right to impose religious views on the population at large and is that not a recipe for endless religious conflict ?( which is why the separation of church and state was first invented). "}

Publius (somehow I feel that I am having this dialogue with Kaal Bhayya LOL),

Separation of church and state is a very handy excuse that western authorities have used to their advantage - depending on the situation. Of course, it is a very useful tool with which to attack the "extremist theocracies" rampant in the Muslim world.

Israel is considered a secular democracy in most western circles - let's not worry about their laws and practices that suppress Palestinians (both Christians and Muslims), confiscate land for Jewish causes, allow only Jews from anywhere to immigrate to Israel, and the list goes on ...

The U.S. is a secular democracy - let's not worry about the Xmas holiday, Sunday holiday, national Christmas tree, "In God we Trust," and other trivial matters. The ban on polygamy, a hundred years after the founding of the nation, was instituted merely to counter Mormon religious sentiments and practices.

We all know about the Queen being the head of the Anglican Church, the continuing validity of the Catholic Inquisition, and various laws in India concerning cow slaughter and other religious edicts.

The question of whether Qadianis are Muslims or not Muslims is not a trivial one. Never in the history of Islam have Muslims experienced an internal attack on the person and stature of Our Holy Prophet (PBUH). Muslim reformers have come and gone, but none felt the selfish need to be exalted to the position of "Prophet." This importance attached to the lowly title of "messenger" was only made possible because of Our Holy Prophet Mohammed (PBUH). This humble man (PBUH) was so loved by his followers that they elevated his lowly title of "messenger" into what we hold as the highest attainment possible by a human being. Certainly, Mirza Ghulam Ahmed is neither deserving nor worthy of such supreme affection and respect.

As for Pakistan passing laws declaring Qadianis to be non-Muslims, this action was taken by a democratically elected legislature and enforced by a democratically elected government. Passing such laws was a much better alternative to fighting the issue in the streets of Punjab with the obvious result of Qadianis placing second in such violent contests. A nation can certainly pass legislation for the greater good of the country - peace and harmony. I think that the US, UK, India, and other countries have enacted laws against terrorism that have been loosely interpreted to trample religious rights.

Mr. Blind Chuhay, here's my latest vulgarity, profanity, and very lewd statements about YOUR and YOURS alone Holy Prophet (PBUH). It is on UP, and I have started many more. Please be nice to me. Thanku.

"Manto's article was published by "Chowk" since manto all of a sudden feared "persecution", after years of being an openly First Mirzaee of Chowk. His article created a dramatic effect by insinuating that all mirzaees in pakistan were in hiding for fear of their safety and that their only outlet was through webforums, where they were sending their articles through secret means. All this because 15 mirzaees were expelled from a university!! Even mullahs have not gone into hiding after a few thousand of them have been expelled from this world

Since mirzaees are now copying zionist dramatic propaganda for maximum effect, here are a few more suggestions on what they should do next:

1- Make a movie called "Dhindsa's List", which would be on the same theme as Schindler's List. The plot would be about how an editor of an anonymous web forum saved 6 million mirzaees in Pakistan

2- Another movie, "The Tabalchi", which would have the same theme as The Pianist. Basically it would tell the horrors of the Bahawalpur Concentration Camp in Pakistan where mirzaees were incarcerated

3- A book "Ghulam Ahmed's Diary", which would have the same theme as Anne Frank's Diary. It would tell the story of a mirzaee boy's experiences of growing up in a country of Sunni Nazis

I can already see a Booker prize and a few Oscars"

#121 Posted by bubba on June 18, 2008 8:43:04 am
{"And neither does kulharee, in this caricature that you are implying about him. Taking things out of context is a very old trick of those who come from the middle east."}

Mr. Bubba,
Would you like to see the evidence? There are literally many many threads and posts by Mr. Kulharee that include vulgarity, profanity, and very lewd statements about Our Holy Prophet (PBUH). There is no issue of "out of context" whatsoever. But of course, you are simply trying to fish in troubled waters and there is no point in convincing you of any rational points.

Haideri Sahib, he is not a sick man, he is a sick pig, brainwashed at birth.

Tahir,

"There is Q-cumbers on this anti-Islam site' S-board. God curse it all in the stinking wells of Rabwah."

This is what you said in German...According to a wiseman in Punjabi

"Kanwan Day Akahy Toor nayee marday"

haideri

Tahir,

You are a very sick man.

haideri

Tahir,

You are a very sick man.

haideri

#119 Chuhya, somehow I find that very hard to believe. No Ahmadi will make friends with someone who curses the wives of the Prophet. Can you categorically state that you respect all wives of the Prophet? Hypocrite.

#125 Nazi ki aulad, go and suck on your prophet Adolph.

Re: # 82

Its time to switch to what the 'real' sponsors of Q-cumbers understood well around WWII:

Ja gibt es Q-cumbers auf diesem Anti-Islam site' s-Brett. Gottfluch sie alle in den stinkenden Brunnen von Rabwah.

Gute Nacht

Re: # 48 oye cheemaya

"I am so far the only non-ahmedi muslim on this forum who accepts the rights of ahmedis to call themselves what they damn well desire"

And soon you'll be one of the Q-cumbers.

They WILL have their representative knock on your door soon...

Ah....how your parents will hate what you write here?

Re: # 5
Punk, New Yorker, head-banger, Axeman,

"Majority of Pakistani don’t give two damns about who the last prophet or the last goddess is..."

If you count a few odd thousand Q-cumbers as 'majority', what can I say except, RETURN TO LISTENING TO DEATH METAL very very LOUD until it blows out your few left-over brain cells....

PS: we do care who came last. It wasn't MGAQ for sure...

Ahmedis you are saying 2+2 is Char in Punjabi. But the answer needs to be in Arabic. So you have a F. Learn how the Kiss Hank's Ass relearn religion by jumping in a Kunwa.

http://www.youtube.com/v/8YAWq89kYHw&OBT_fname=8YAWq89kYHw

Re: # 119 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on June 18, 2008 8:21:20
am

Salim,

[Of course, either they are more civilized than you or perhaps they belong to another sect of Qadianis who do not believe in hurling insults, profanity, abuse, and filthy comments about Our Holy Prophet (PBUH).]

You are incorrect. I have never met any Qadiani who say things that you accuse all qadianis of in one of your earlier post. You just play with words and in this case, it is you who has thrown the first insult.

[My main reason for having contempt for the Qadiani faith is your frequent and despicable manner of insulting, cursing, and ridiculing My Holy Prophet (PBUH). I do not think that most Qadianis agree with you in your awful and uncivilized behavior.]

And neither does kulharee, in this caricature that you are implying about him. Taking things out of context is a very old trick of those who come from the middle east.

All laws that discriminate people based on their religious beliefs should be expunged from the Pakistan constitution. The 2nd Amendment is an albatross around the neck of the country.

#109 Posted by Kulharee on June 17, 2008 2:33:39 pm
{" Salim Chuhan is an idiot ...
My open challenge to Salim Chuhan to prove me wrong about what I have said above."}

Kulharee,
I don't know who is the bigger idiot - the alleged one or the one who alleges someone is an idiot and then launches an open challenge to prove himself wrong?

{"Salim Chuhan ... has never visited an Ahmadi masjid or any interfaith Ahmadi gathering, nor has he known any Ahmadi in real life."}

Kulharee,
I have at least four good Qadiani friends - both male and female. Of course, either they are more civilized than you or perhaps they belong to another sect of Qadianis who do not believe in hurling insults, profanity, abuse, and filthy comments about Our Holy Prophet (PBUH).

My main reason for having contempt for the Qadiani faith is your frequent and despicable manner of insulting, cursing, and ridiculing My Holy Prophet (PBUH). I do not think that most Qadianis agree with you in your awful and uncivilized behavior.

KARACHI: Groom’s father acquitted in couple murder case



By Ishaq Tanoli


KARACHI, June 17: The additional district and sessions judge-V, Central, Tasneem Sultana, on Tuesday acquitted the father of the deceased groom in the double murder case of a newly-wed couple since both parties jointly filed a compromise application in the court.

The prosecution said that Hafiz Shaikh Mohammad Azeem and his bride, Beenish, were found dead in mysterious circumstances the next morning of their wedding night in their North Nazimabad apartment in the Taimuria police limits on Aug 11, 2007.

The investigation officer of the New Karachi Industrial Area police station, Khalid Khan, had nominated the deceased groom’s father, Shaikh Abdul Majeed, as the main accused in the case.

Both parties, however, reached an out-of-court settlement and filed a compromise application on May 21 in the trial court under Section 345(2) of the Criminal Procedure Code, which says that the offences punishable under Sections of the Pakistan Penal Code specified in the table (which includes Qatl-i-Amd registered under Section 302), with the permission of the court before which any prosecution for such offence is pending, be compounded by the heirs of the victims.
////////////////////////

what civil rights are you pakis talking about. Here is a murder and no one has been charged. In a country where murder is not a crime, what is the concept of civil rights. It is time that pakis stop pretending to be civilised.

YLH,

Can you tell me who from BBC interviewed you and on what date.

I checked the BBC web site and could not find any transcripts.

#112 Posted by mikexxxxxx

.... as two-nation theory died after Bangla Desh creation.

I didn't know East Pakistan became part of bhindia in 1971 instead of remaining a separate nation from bhindis.

YLH,

Good to see you back here with your anti non-violence posts. A man who considers jinnah as a hero, jinnah the man who created teh TNT under which pakistan continue to vex, the man who initiated the killings through direct action, the country taht has ethnically cleansed all the other religions that made up 15 percent at teh time of creation, well we all know what can be expected of you regarding Gandhi.

By teh way tell me which BBC program has reported your interview.

Re: # 85

Masadi,

Thanks very much for answering my question.

I have a very similar take on this subject.

Mahomed Ali Jinnah was the butcher who organized the "Direct Action Day".

--------------------------------------------

[Excerpted from the chapter “What Are We Here For?� in the book “The Raj� by Lawrence James (1997) – pages 601-605. (Some English word spellings have been replaced with the corresponding American version.) The year was 1946. The date of 16 August 1946 had been designated as the “Direct Action Day� by Mahomed Ali Jinnah.]

No one in India could have had any doubts what the words “Direct Action� would mean when translated on to the streets; if they did then they had only to recollect the Congress protest movements of the past twenty-five years. Even the League’s adherents in London carried sandwich boards proclaiming ‘Pakistan or Perish’ or ‘Muster call to Arms’ as they marched from Blackfriars to Downing Street. These slogans were being taken at face value in India where, even before Jinnah’s appeal, Hindu-Muslim conflict was spreading and becoming more intense. Violence was embedded in Indian political life and, with the Raj clearly coming to the end of its days, it was inevitable that those who regarded themselves as its heirs would fall to blows. Efforts by rival party machines to assert supremacy in areas where there was a balance between Hindus and Muslims were a major source of turmoil. In the Hindu state of Alwar (Rajasthan) there was a spate of commotions during the first half of 1946, when Muslim activists attempted to arouse their fellow believers, the Meos. Crowds armed with lathis and guns gathered, a district magistrate’s camp was attacked and schools were disrupted as agents tried to inject sectarian fervors in their pupils. (49)

During May tension between Hindus and Muslims increased in the Punjab, where both sides were laying in arms and private political armies were drilling. In Jalandhar, knives and lathis were being hoarded and stones piled on roofs, together with bags filled with sand and red pepper. (50) Trouble was coming; of this everyone was certain, and the evidence could be read in the newspapers or heard on the wireless. Communal riots broke out in Bombay in April and Ahmadabad on 3 July, when 39 were killed and 260 wounded in four days of disturbances. A Hindu procession passing a mosque was the signal for a sectarian battle in Dacca on 2 July, in which mosques were burned and temples desecrated. Fear and rancor combined to create an atmosphere in which rumors of real and fictional outrages sparked off sudden explosions. The alleged rape of a Muslim girl by a Sikh in Abbottabad provoked the firing of a Sikh gurdwara (temple) and the retaliatory murder of several Muslims. (51) Indian troops stationed at Jhansi became involved in heated rows after listening to wireless bulletins, and there were reports of communal friction among units serving in Burma. (52)

It had been hoped that the army might somehow remain immune from the sectarian contagion. At the end of March, Southern Command had undertaken a discreet enquiry into the temper of Indian officers of all religions. After hearing their views, it was concluded that the soldiers’ reactions to large-scale communal disorder would depend on their officers. Their loyalty was to the army, although some expressed a reluctance to command forces ordered to suppress communal riots. (53) Auchinleck toom little comfort from this. He was convinced that Muslim and Hindu soldiers would refrain from firing into mobs of their co-religionists, and said as much when questioned on the matter by the chiefs of staff in London on 13 August.he rejected, however, a Joint Intelligence Staff assessment that India was plainly heading towards a civil war which the Indian army could no longer prevent. (54)

Wavell and his provincial governors were also facing up to the unthinkable: that the Raj no longer possessed the will and wherewithal to keep the peace. This was Wavell’s conclusion after he had listened to the views of his provincial governors on 8 August. Sir Evan Jenkins, the recently appointed Governor of the Punjab, believed that its Indian ministry lacked the nerve to disband the province’s growing private militia and that serious communal troubles would soon occur in the cities. Sir Frederick Burrows, the Governor of Bengal and a former president of the National Union of Railwaymen, did not expect serious mischief during Jinnah’s day of action, which was just as well for the local police could no longer be depended upon. Wavell was gloomily realistic: Congress now controlled three-fourths of India and was unassailable. If there was a trial of strength with the Raj, then the knowledge that the British departure was now predetermined would sway police loyalty towards those who would inherit power and patronage. (55) Having weathered the tempests of February and March, the Indian government faced a fresh storm of even greater ferocity.

It broke on 16 August in Calcutta. Trouble had been expected, at least by Eastern Command’s intelligence assessors, and four British, one Jt and one Gurkha battalion backed by the tanks of the 25th Dragoons were standing by in readiness for upheavals. (56) But, when the day of action began, they were still in their barracks on the city’s outskirts. Huseyn Suhrawady, Bengal’s Prime Minister and a future premier of Pakistan, had ordered a public holiday for the 16th which guaranteed a large Muslim turn-out. During the morning there were scuffles whenever Hindu shopkeepers refused to close their businesses. At four in the afternoon, thousands of Muslims converged on the Ochterlony monument (a Muslim police intelligence officer estimated the crowd at 500,000, a Hindu colleague at 30,000) to hear a series of provocative speeches. Suhrawady proclaimed the beginning of the struggle for Muslim emancipation. There was nothing to fear, he assured his audience: ‘I have made the necessary arrangements with the police not to interfere.’ (57) These words must have made many hearts leap for joy – there were many goondas (gangsters) in the crowd who were to take a leading part in the slaughter, looting and arson which followed.

The rally was a signal for the killing to commence. Muslim gangs roamed the streets during the afternoon, evening and night murdering Hindus. The victims were beaten, stabbed and their corpses sometimes mutilated, usually in alleyways. Many were Biharis who worked as milkmen, rickshaw wallahs, carters and doormen. Following techniques developed over the past decade, the murder gangs would dissolve the moment they saw squads of policemen or soldiers, fleeing into side streets and alleys. Not that the assassins had much to fear from the police; during his tour of the city, Burrows was horrified to find policemen standing by as a mob bludgeoned to death three individuals. One shot from aBritish sergeant sent the crowd scattering. Strangely, Burrows denied that the police had been ‘fixed’ by Suhrawady and his League cronies, and blamed their indifference on fear of being criticized in the press and by politicians if they opened fire. (58)

By the early hours of 17 August the police had lost control over much of the northern part of the city, where many buildings were on fire. By now Hindus were taking promiscuous revenge and casualties were mounting. Troops were deployed to patrol the streets, backed by tanks which had ‘a considerable moral effect’ on the crowds. It took six days to restore order, during which the army fired 2,000 rounds at the elusive bands of assassins, killing 115. the total casualties for the communal massacres were estimated to be at least 4,000 dead and 10,000 wounded. Among the survivors were a small party of Hindus and Muslims, including women and children, who attached themselves to a British businessman. He guided his flock through streets littered with overturned cars and burnt rickshaws until they found a place of safety. (59) Their faith in him and his courage were a metaphor for a Raj which was fast passing away. In its place was a government forced to make moral compromises: there no recriminations when Wavell interviewed Suhrawady, the man who bore a considerable responsibility for the killings. The politician was merely told to do his duty in the future. But to whom did a party boss like Suhrawady owe his duty – certainly not to his King Emperor and the people of India.

The Calcutta massacres opened a new phase in the communal struggle. Refugees from the city fled to their native Bihar with horror stories which inflamed passions and triggered random, retaliatory murders of Muslims there. But the pattern of slaughter could be stopped by resolute men and tough measures. On 26 November, Hugh Martin was travelling by train through Bihar with a detachment of the 1st Madras Regimentwhen he heard of an attack on the Muslim village of Nagarnausa. Taking a jeep and a lorry, he led a well-armed party of sixteen soldiers to confront a mob of 5,000 Hindus about to descend on the village. The outnumbered soldiers opened fire without orders and the crowd fled after twenty had been killed. It returned again at night and was dispersed again by shooting. In all, 1,600 lives had been saved and there was no further trouble in the district. Nonetheless, Martin had to face a clamor from militant Hindus who alleged that he was a second Dyer. (60)

Bombay’s response to the events in Calcutta was a steep rise in communal violence. During September, 471 were killed and over 1,300 wounded in a series of small incidents in which bands of assassins sallied out of alleyways, stabbed their victims and melted away. The city’s Muslims were also disturbed by tales that the Sikhs were now Congress’s ‘shock troops’. (61) At Agra ten died after Muslims ambushed Sikh and Hindu religious processions. (62) In what would turn out to be a sinister development in the tit-for-rat killings, a train bound from Cuttack to Madras was found to have the word ‘Mussalmans’ chalked on one of its carriages. This identification had been made, it was believed, to enable Hindu acid-throwers to find their targets. (63) Preparations for a trial of strength were well advanced in the North-West Frontier Province, where uniformed Muslim League National Guardsmen were parading openly and ex-INA men and released RIN mutineers were being secretly drilled as Jambazes (holy warriors). (64)

The worst trouble was in eastern Bengal, where there were sectarian killings in the city of Dacca and the Noakhali district. Here occurres a rural pogrom in which Muslim gangs burned Hindu villages, murdered men, kidnapped women and raped them. The death toll stood at 300 on 10 September in what was a carefully planned campaign of terror, contrived both to frighten Hindus generally and to expel them from a province which had been designated as part of a yet-to-be-defined Muslim state. After making allowances for the spontaneous element in the Calcutta massacres, it is possible to detect the same pattern of cause and effect there: the city’s non-Muslim population had to be intimidated or driven out before it could become, as Jinnah wished, a part of Pakistan. Certainly the situation in the summer of 1946 demanded that the League flexed its muscles in a region where its pretensions were strongly challenged by Congress and the Communists, some of whom wanted a separate Bengali republic.

Spiralling Hindu-Muslim violence generated fear and loathing in equal parts. In November 1946, the Muslim Nawab of Bhopal felt certain that his fellow believers faced extermination. (65) At this time a black propaganda document was circulating among Hindus, which outlined details of how the Muslims were about to seize control over India. Pakistan would be their base, and their methods included the murder by a ‘secret League Gestapo’ of Congress leaders and Muslims who refused to join the League and the destruction of Hindu and Sikh temples. Systematic sabotage would paralyze urban life and Hindu women would be abducted, raped and converted. (66) Lurid images appeared on Hindu leaflets which showed prominent Leaguers washing their hands in blood and breasts being sliced off women. The League’s newspaper, Dawn, printed photographs of Muslim bodies. (67) It was impossible for the authorities to suppress such material, and even if they had the means, nothing could have halted the diffusion of rumors or the eyewitness tales of the refugees. Nor could the contagion be contained by the personal appeals of India’s leaders who, often at great risk, visited the troubled areas and remonstrated with their inhabitants. Hugh Martin was moved by the dignity and courage shown by Nehru when he visited refugees in Bihar, including a Muslim wrestler whose family had been murdered. (68)

May be people on this favor multi-nation theory as two-nation theory died after Bangla Desh creation.

How about Shia, Sunni, Sindhi, Taliban, Boloch, Punjabi and Pashto nations theory?

Elite and filthy rich leadership of our jamaat e Ahmadiyya want preferential treatment all over the world.

Actually they are the one who attack , blackmail and ridicule simple muslims of this world for not accepting their version of Islam and for not paying 10 percent to them.

Our Jamaat e Ahmadiyya has lot of land and resources in Africa, why don't they go there and create an Ahmadiyya welfare state.

Why is our jamaat Ahmadiyya dying and doing all this propaganda to get settled in ultra rich but alien cultures of Europe and North America. .??

Following is one wonderful and intelligent response, which knowledgable izuber wrote in " Twenty three students expelled "

Being an insider born Ahmadi I agree with the point of view of izuber

izuber wrote ,


"Adopt a dont ask dont tell policy, no one asks you if you are a Qadiani or not until YOU provoke.
Qadianis brought this upon themselves when they stopped the train filled with students and demonstrated their terrorist acts at a time when Pakistan was much more safer and better.
You Qadianis brought upon yourself.
If you live like people then you would be treated like people but once you began to demonstrate your Qadianiat on the streets and in public you will be curbed.
Take it or leave it but this is what Qadianis have qualified themselves for since the attack on students traveling by train and passing through Rabwa.
As long as you are able to maintain yourselves within prescribed limits you have no problems so mind yourself instead of blaming others for the problems you created yourself. If you were to live in Vatican and started a new congregation of Catholic Christians you will face the same.
Continue crying bloody murder and keep seeking asylum to UK, USA & Canada. "

Salim Chuhan is an idiot who has never visited an Ahmadi masjid or any interfaith Ahmadi gathering, nor has he known any Ahmadi in real life. This goes for a whole load of other idiots who pretend to be experts on what Ahmadi faith entails.

My open challenge to Salim Chuhan to prove me wrong about what I have said above.

salim
"Qadianis have every right to practice their religion, but should never be allowed to pursue their insidious role of disinformation against Islam"

yar salim, the quadianis were recruiting from muslims. IF they started with disclaimer that they were proposing something which is not islam, they would not have gotten very far at all, so they chose this approach imo. it is very dangerous for folks to leave islam or porpose leaving islam.

Salim_chauhan,

You say that "Qadianis have every right to practice their religion, but should never be allowed to pursue their insidious role of disinformation against Islam".

I hope you will allow that there are differences of opnion on what and what does not constitute disinformation about Islam(even when some opinions may be more objective). The question is how to handle those differences ?

In other words if a Qadiani thinks that his view of Islam is correct and if somebody disagrees then how is this difference to be resolved or handled ?

Should it be resolved by the state, by the Government imposing what is considers to be the right view or should this be left to be resolved at the level of individuals i.e any individual is free to believe that Qadianis are not true muslims, just as another individual is free to believe that they are.

If you think the state should impose it's view then does it not follow that the state has the right to impose religious views on the population at large and is that not a recipe for endless religious conflict ?( which is why the separation of church and state was first invented).

I see that Mantolives is back to his pastime of blaming Gandhi and continues his cut and paste for one more time. :-)

Now some facts.


***********************************
(5) I believe that interdining or intermarriage are not necessary for promoting national unity. That dining together creates friendship is contrary to experience. If this was true there would have been no war in Europe.... Taking food is as dirty an act as answering the call of nature. The only difference is that after answering call of nature we get peace while after eating food we get discomfort. Just as we
perform the act of answering the call of nature in seclusion so also the act of taking food must also be done in seclusion.
**************************

Assuming he has said the above in 1922, the fact remains that he encouraged and blessed his son to marry out of caste in 1933.

http://www.hinduonnet.com/mag/2003/02/02/stories/2003020200680300.htm

*****************
Rajaji's opposition to the Quit India movement made ordinary Congressmen abuse and even — at a meeting in Bombay — throw black tar at him. The Mahatma, characteristically, would not allow political disagreement to come in the way of personal friendship. Their ties had been strengthened by the marriage, back in 1933, of Gandhi's son Devadas to C.R.'s daughter Lakshmi.
****************

C.R is a Brahmin and Gandhi belonged to the trader caste.

arjun,

stop your quack quack and duck waddle. Please contribute if you have something interesting to say. Mindless profanity does not cut it.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Harry Pi,
The whole Mirzaee heresy is as stupid as you, the Goddess, and I declaring ourselves to be the second Trinity and then insisting on being called Christian, wanting to be admitted to the Vatican and having our Teefay installed as the parallel Pope.

Salim pi,

Yes, your break from chowk was well deserved :).

I've been good, trying to understand the multi-faceted and complex religion that's Mirzaism. I even read the 200 page pdf document that was sent in to the National Assembly in which Mirzais explained their stance on khatm-e-nabuwaat. Actually there was little in the way of explanation...it was mostly pointing accusatory fingers at other sects, religions etc.

fun read.

Harry Pi,
I was always for cutting some slack for the Qadianis - after all there is no point about getting selfish when it comes to religious nomenclature. Unfortunately, these guys are so adamant regarding their hatered for the Holy Prophet (PBUH) that they smell worse than Brahmins bathing in the "bolluted" waters near Benares.

Harry Pi,
I took a long and pleasant break from Chowk.:) How have you been?

Jang,
The amazing thing about you and your perception of Islam, Muslims, Turkey, and Pakistan is that you can always find that grey cloud over the silver lining.

Salim pi,

Actually I've been lurking around, just not actively posting...

Harry Pi,
Welcome back to you too. Yes, after losing to Portugal, it was good to see Turkey beat the Czechs. On to Vienna and crushing Croatia.

since we are talking of turks in q-finals, maybe a related topic is they are planning a 15-yr jail term for a publisher..

all this in the spirit of bringing all issues to the table ;-)

Salim pi,

welcome back. Heard the turks got into the quater finals of the euro cup...how're they doing?

#84 Posted by jang on June 17, 2008 10:13:24 am
{"ok so this is an article about human rights, and you are bringing in all these confundling issues to the table."}

My dear one-dimensional Jang,
I realize that you like to discuss only the elements that suit you or bring embarrassment for Pakistan. Unfortunately for your narrow objective, this issue is much more complicated than cheerleading for human rights, universal education, and save the whales. It's like trying to restrict the discussion to "India shining" without discussing the plight of dalits, the murders in Gujarat, or the high rate of inflation.

Re: # 85 masadi

Well, the prevailing "slave status" of pakis may not be entirely j-man's fault...pakis in general screwed up their priorities and hence landed up where they are today...

J-man shouldn't have played such a religion-inspired hate game, that was really a stupid thing to do... but having had a country for themselves, pakis could have managed it much differently... it was entirely within realm of possibility...

mohar yaar,

Manto does a fine job beating up injuns. He's an army of one. There was a time when he was more active on chowk, and all the injuns had a**burn :)

He's an army of one

PS: but you are right - YLH is an idiot... and he has a big mouth - which sooner or later will get him killed...

Re: # 89 hoori
[...he does kick injun ass ...]

sure, in bizzaro world... the guy is a living breathing pinata who gets beaten up everytime he pops his head in chowk... :)

Masadi,

Manto is an idiot. He's also an opportunist, an airhead, and an intellectually inferior gnat.

It's useless arguing with him...a waste of time and energy.

What disapoints me the most though, is that Manto is the type of moron that her majesty's imperial broadcasting services like to interview, which in turn gives a broader platform to mediocrity.

The good thing about Manto? Well he does kick injun ass like nobody's business. So props to him for that.

Re: # 87
Arjun,

I'm dismayed at your hacking abilities :( I thought you could crack IPs and such.

No, that's Salim. He's back :)

#83 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on June 17, 2008 9:48:21 am

hurricane..is that you?

Manto writes in #74 "Alright losers I am done for the day..."

You all must have noticed how this fool begins his posts these days in this condesending manner as if he is better than you all but as you know this BS of the nuevo rich just shows lack of intellect and fakery that tries to emulate the aristocrasy whose mannerisms mere money cannot grasp. His kind are the dregs of the earth whose man worship befits their lowly brain capacity, they are so lost that in their perversions the winners emerge as 'losers'. A.holes the whole bunch of them....

Pakistan3 writes "Re: # 31

Masadi,

Why are you so against Mr Jinnah? "

I can never be with those who because of personal ego and hatreds hypocritically use religion to be a catalyst in the fulfilment of colonial and feudal desires, causing widespread carnage along the way, and setting the stage for military rule in our country, a military held accountable to colonial decree, divinding up the Muslim political voice in India and relegating not only the Pakistani Muslim to peon and slave status due to dependence on externals for defense, but the Muslims of India to a "double jeapordy" as a consequence of the reactions that are a direct consequence of his actions.

Need I say more?

{Qadianis have every right to practice their religion, but should never be allowed to pursue their insidious role of disinformation against Islam. Let's separate the issue of human rights from the issues of infringement, disinformation, and usurpation.}

ok so this is an article about human rights, and you are bringing in all these confundling issues to the table.

We need to separate the various issues associated with the perception of the Qadiani religion, the treatment of Qadianis in Pakistan, and the basic rights of citizens of any country.

First of all, as Pakistani citizens, followers of the Qadiani religion have every right to practice their faith and participate in educational, social, political, and commercial endeavors allowed for any other religious group.

The problem arises when Qadianis insist on being accepted as Muslims. Qadianis have demonstrated by both belief and action that they are not Muslims. It is an established fact that many outspoken Qadianis, especially in the west, openly ridicule and abuse the Holy Prophet (PBUH) as if he is some sort of an impediment to the acceptance of their own "prophet." As Kaal Bhai has noted several times, how can a group of so-called Muslims call themselves Muslims when they dishonor the very man whose name is synonymous with the religion of Islam?

Some people argue that if Shias are considered Muslim, why shouldn't the Qadianis be allowed the same status? If Shias love and honor Imam Ali (RA), they do so ONLY because Ali (RA)was his cousin and son-in-law. If Shias hold Imams Hassan and Hussain (RA) in high esteem, it is ONLY because they were his beloved grandsons. The Agha Khan is respected ONLY because he is a direct descendant of the Holy Prophet (PBUH). Although he never asked for an exalted position, no human being is accorded the same stature in Islam as the Holy Prophet (PBUH). Even Wahabbis, while stressing strict obedience to the Holy Koran have never dishonored the Holy Prophet's name or position.

Qadianis have every right to practice their religion, but should never be allowed to pursue their insidious role of disinformation against Islam. Let's separate the issue of human rights from the issues of infringement, disinformation, and usurpation.

3 articles in a single week or less in defence of qadianis on the front page of chowk! i wonder if any qadianis are on the editorial board?!

click on the article tab above the comment box.

Why can I not open this article ??? I can open everything else .. What I get is a message saying..

Page Not Found

Sorry the page you requested cannot be found.

yar manto, unfortunately, the hindoos have scuttled this important board..just like gandhi brought religion in politics which made jina retaliate etc..same shyte.

as a legal mind, and an ex ahemedi, ex sunni, currently ismili-muslim, can you comment on this?

{someone asked why ahmedis insist on being muslims?

this is an interesting question, since i understand that denouncing islam as a religion is apostasy. induvidually, it may be somewhat ok. but if a new guy forms a reform movement for muslims, there is no way he can call it not islam. how will rest of the society respond to a large group "converting" out of islam? so therefore, the reformer must call it islam out of necessity. the choice is not to have any reform movement.}

#74 Posted by MantoLives on June 17, 2008 5:16:55 am


This well written article by an enlightened and aware Pakistani is vindication for all the positions I have taken for so many years.


The fact that the author can't reveal his name and can't call himself a muslim is vindication of your position how?

Do you even understand what vindication means?..

here..let me help

Main Entry:
vin·di·ca·tion
Pronunciation:
\ËŒvin-dÉ™-ˈkÄ?-shÉ™n

justification against denial or censure

oh so zeemax is a freak now..I remember a time in the not too distant past when you were teaming up with zeemax payee..

Re: # 34

"It was 1918. Lord Willingdon was relinquishing the governorship of Bombay province and a meeting was convened to appreciate his services. Jinnah did not approve of the idea and decided to organise a protest. He along with his wife Ratanbai and a large number of protestors were forceably removed by the police.
"

Was there lathi charge? Did he and his cute wife blocked governor's car. How large was the crowd of protesters? This kind of playing media gallery is similar to Monica Gandhis activist gandugiri. When media lime light is not there it stops.

"
The episode made Jinnah a hero and within a few days his admirers, mostly Congress workers, contributed Rs 30,000 in his honour.

The amount was presented to him at a felicitation ceremony at a small hall at Congress House. However, Jinnah, one of the most successful barristers in the city, returned the money.
"
You and me who are not very successful lawyers will also return such money.

"
The Congressmen then named the hall after him and set up a trust with the Rs 30,000. It was called the Jinnah Hall Trust.
"

Probably it is called People's Hall, that is why no one knew Jinha Hall. Grant Road is an area and railway (local) station. Identify on the wikimapia.

All this does not matter. Is there Jinhaism? We can only go by the effect we see and the sound we hear. We see massacre of innocents on Direct Action Day. We hear the talk of Muslims being a different race and people, from a fellow who could not read Kuran or talk in Hindustani or even Gujarathi properly ...whose grand father converted to Islam. That is why we say if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it is most probably a duck. The guy had no connection to common Indian, Muslim or Hindu. He did not know whome he is freeing and from what. Look at Bakiland? He was merely a tactical gandu interested in only himself.

About your other accusations ...gandhi encouraged his grand daughters to marry out of caste ... how about Jinha? He disowned his daughter because she married like him a Parsi.

Do us a favour, show your child (assuming u r married and has one) photo of Gandhi and Jinha, let her google gandhi and jinha and learn on her own about the two men.

Please do not quote Ambedkar. It is wrong to quote people out of context and without giving the dates. People evolve as they learn more. We need to know their level of consciousness when they uttered certain words. Moreover, actions speak louder.

Personally I do not like practising lawyer and a successful one stinks for miles. What is so good about defending crooks and criminals.

#73 by MantoLives

Really? Poor Yasser. Being victimized for no fault of his. Why don't you demand a Pakistan on Chowk where no Hindus and Sikhs are allowed?

Alright losers I am done for the day. This well written article by an enlightened and aware Pakistani is vindication for all the positions I have taken for so many years. More and more patriotic Pakistanis are now ready to reclaim Pakistan to the utter disappointment of freaks on both sides of the border.

Pakistan Zindabad.

whimpering is when you guys invent statements I never made because you can't defend your position.

LOL! Sad to see Yasser reduced to such whimpering.

"Daiichi bought Ranbaxy so Daiichi is an Indian company now"

Lol. What logic indeed.

#67 by _arjun5

IBM bought daksh..so IBM is an Indian company

Yep and Daiichi bought Ranbaxy so Daiichi is an Indian company now...LOL!

Re: # 67

Ofcourse I called Mobilink a Pakistani company... not Orascom. We were talking about the fifteen percent shares of Mobilink going for 540 Million if you recall. So how was I talking about Orascom?

Do you have reading comprehension issues?

Re: # 61

Chowk is full of freaks... you, Zeemax, Kharish mian ...

So whats new?

#65 Posted by MantoLives on June 17, 2008 4:57:14 am


IBM bought daksh..so IBM is an Indian company...

Re: # 62

"part of me really feels sorry for you because you have to defend a criminal who caused a holocaust on the subcontinent."

I protest. I have NEVER defended Gandhi the abovementioned criminal.

Re: # 59


Mobilink i.e. Pakistan Mobile Communications Limited is a Pakistani company incorporated in 1992 by the Saif group... it was completely taken over by Orascom only recently ...

And I did call Rutgers "Public Ivy" ... which it is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Ivy

Now where does that leave you ? Oh yes you are a liar.

#60 Posted by MantoLives on June 17, 2008 4:51:26 am


Meanwhile we have Gandhians running amok


yeah..I heard US forces dropped a few 500 pounders on a bunch of gandhians..


... do you know that in 1953 the Majlis-e-Amal... consisting of Ahrar... called its Anti-Ahmaddiya movement "Satyagraha"?


So what pakistan is only practicing satyagraha when it declares ahmadis non-muslims? and india is anti-satyagraha because ahmadis are regarded as muslims....?

#59 by _arjun5

seriously manto...people who quote nominal GDP numbers, call rutgers an ivy league school and call orascom a paki company should look back into their own self-deluded past..

Yaar Arjun, cut Yasser some slack. He's the brightest Pakistan has got and you had to spoil his party.

#57 by MantoLives

I have whooped your ass so many times on this discussion that it is not worth it anymore. Marginal utility of whooping your ass has been on a nose dive.

Yasser mian, we all know that when it comes to abuse, none of us can measure up to you. Perhaps that comes from the upbringing. But will you please argue with proofs or once again just declare victory and run away (with tail in between legs)?

PS: I just don't know what whether to sympathize with you or go mad at you with anger. A part of me really feels sorry for you because you have to defend a criminal who caused a holocaust on the subcontinent.

you would find most Pakistani Non-Ahmadi Muslims in favor of Ahmadis' rights


Really...why don't you as your "payee" zeemax what he thinks of ahmadis...

Re: # 55

Jinnah's ideals were shared by B R Ambedkar. B R Ambedkar drafted India's constitution. So your statement does make sense.

Meanwhile we have Gandhians running amok ... do you know that in 1953 the Majlis-e-Amal... consisting of Ahrar... called its Anti-Ahmaddiya movement "Satyagraha"?

#57 Posted by MantoLives on June 17, 2008 4:48:41 am


I have whooped your ass


seriously manto...people who quote nominal GDP numbers, call rutgers an ivy league school and call orascom a paki company should look back into their own self-deluded past..

#53 Posted by MantoLives on June 17, 2008 4:46:21 am


we have discussed this issue to death but Pakistan was not a country founded in the name of religion


That doesn't change the FACT that today's pakistan - in your own words - is a theocracy...

and maybach's aside, an ahmadi still can't call himself muslim..

Harish mian,

I have whooped your ass so many times on this discussion that it is not worth it anymore. Marginal utility of whooping your ass has been on a nose dive.

Re: # 51
...

....including the current board we are on.....so it wasn't so much getting off the topic, as it were

looks like the Ummah has always cried blue murmer for a messiah....Jinnah didn't live long enough....the others also managed to screw us big time

all we could do is say,

"ba'ad az khuda buzurg tui, qissa mukh'tasir"!! to every f...ing single one of them!

what losers we are Yasser Sahib

#41 Posted by MantoLives on June 17, 2008 4:19:54 am


However you may also go to the Darul Itfa of Darul Uloom Deoband (Gandhi's favorite boys) and read their fatwas against Ahmadis.


And yet ahmadis aren't non-muslims in India...

so Gandhi's bigotry is put into practice in pakiland
fatwas from indian madrassahs are put into practice in pakiland

now jinnah didn't want ahmadis apostatized....so it seems jinnah's idea are practiced in india and gandhi's ideas are practiced in pakiland...

The only piece of evidence (Stanley Wolpert's report in the Time) in relation to who started the violence was given by me. You on the other hand claimed that since more Muslims were killed and Sardar Patel gloated at the fact automatically means it was the Congress that started it. Is the number of casualties proof of who started it?

Re: # 48

I have no idea what your status as a Non-Ahmedi Muslim accepting Ahmadis rights to call themselves anything has to do with this discussion. This is not the only board this issue has been discussed... and if you were to visit some of the other boards like Pakistaniat etc... you would find most Pakistani Non-Ahmadi Muslims in favor of Ahmadis' rights ... it is just that chowk is humble abode of freaks.

As for religion blah blah... we have discussed this issue to death but Pakistan was not a country founded in the name of religion... it was founded in the name of group rights. Had Jinnah been any less of a statesman he would have - like many "great" Indian Muslim leaders ... preferred to be on the "right side" of Mahatma instead of doing something for his people.

And 50 or 60 years are nothing in the life of a nation. Perhaps in 1850s you would be questioning the founding of the US because the SC refused to accept black people as citizens (under dredd scott decision).

We all know Congress carried out the slaughter of Muslims in Calcutta.

We all, as in Yasser and family? Because otherwise there is absolutely no evidence to contradict the fact that the Direct Action was called for by Jinnah and that Suhrawardy had given the police a holiday so ML goons could have a free rein. Even your favorite, Stanley Wolpert reported that it was Muslims who had started the violence?

How many times must you be shamed with evidence?

Evidence that it wasn't Jinnah who called for Direct Action?

just to clarify...the ahmedi/non-ahmedi statement was a hangover from at least three (possibly four) recent articles on chowk

Khuda Hafiz

Oh come on... so you can't defend racist Gandhi... you have to lie about and abuse Jinnah? We all know Congress carried out the slaughter of Muslims in Calcutta. How many times must you be shamed with evidence?

Stay on the topic... Gandhi's racism.

#46 by MantoLives

A 45 year old Indian Mahatma goes around calling Black people subhuman for many years... Then he doesn't have the grace to accept that he was wrong.

If a much older Jinnah calls for Direct Action that leads to the killing of thousands of Hindus and Muslims doesn't have the grace to apologize, how do you expect a 45 year old Mahatma to apologize for something he had done much earlier in his life?

Re: # 43

I'd only like to say this that perhaps I am so far the only non-ahmedi muslim on this forum who accepts the rights of ahmedis to call themselves what they damn well desire.......some country you have Yasser mian!

what did Jinnah think when he decided to work for craeting a state "in the name of religion"?? a statesman of the stature you claim him to be should have had some idea of the psychology of the people he was pretending to lead!

I have nothing more to say .....at this particular time

Khuda Hafiz

Re: # 37
Manto...
"Other Gandhian Statements that we need to consider...

'Sanghtan is a really sound movement. Every community is entitled,
indeed bound to organize itself as a seperate entity' : Mahatma Gandhi...."

Though, I do not like Gandhi much, but this is very good view. Indian society prospered is through this social model for 1000s of years. Now, suddenly demonising caste system is very stupid...


BJ2...
The bone of contention is whether Muhammed or Ahmed was last prophet...If you feel both are persons and some segments prefer Muhammed over Ahmed, then the problem will go. Muhammed was never a resident of present day Pakistan and have nothing positive contribution to that land ( any evidence you have, please state that). Then why to fight with such silly matter?

Re: # 44

A 45 year old Indian Mahatma goes around calling Black people subhuman for many years... Then he doesn't have the grace to accept that he was wrong. I would imagine that it is not slender evidence.


AKCheema,

It is true that none of what Lincoln said even comes close to Gandhi's racism which in any event was much more rooted in "Indo-Aryan superiority" of the kind Adolf Hitler ascribed to.

But Lincoln never really claimed otherwise either. He was a white president of a white country whose issue was with slavery and not really race relations.

Re: # 43; Yasser
[[And yes ... Lincoln's racism is now an accepted fact]]

misrepresention of the truth again sir

for the record, Lincoln was NOT a racist but well ahead of his times; just not ahead enough for OUR likings

#40 by akcheema

Also, this was from very early on in Gandhi's "political career"....I call it deliberately distorting the truth.

Cheema bhai, this is what I and many others have pointed out too. But I guess the balance of Yasser's entire thesis hangs on this slender bit of "evidence".

AKcheema,

You can go on saying whatever you wish... however Gandhi and Adolf Hitler were contemporaries... we abuse Hitler for holding the same view but let the great Mahatma off the hook?

And yes ... Lincoln's racism is now an accepted fact... though it does not compare to what Gandhi said and did.

And if you think all this was "early on" in Gandhi's political career, surely you can find a single apology from the casteist freak in any time after this ...

As for this myth that poor idiots like BJ and others wish to create about Jinnah... Ian Bryant Wells recently published a book in India on Jinnah which very succinctly blew to pieces the "elitist myth".

Re: # 39; arjun mian,

they are all deluded frogs not capable of looking beyond their teeny weeny wells

Because my dear friend ...the great man who wrote your constitution B R Ambedkar hated Gandhi.. and deliberately kept Gandhuism out of the constitution. You may read ICA debates.

However you may also go to the Darul Itfa of Darul Uloom Deoband (Gandhi's favorite boys) and read their fatwas against Ahmadis.

Re: # 37; Yasser

WAS ABRAHAM LINCOLN A RACIST??

This is what he had to say on race relations in the country; yet he was the greatest "moderate" on the subject at the time. I for one don't accept your 'presentist' take on this. Also, this was from very early on in Gandhi's "political career"....I call it deliberately distorting the truth.

and what would you call Jinnah? was he such a champion of the rights of the common man as you make him out to be? or was he one of the worst elitists ever?

Let's see what Lincoln said for starters:

"What I would most desire would be the separation of the white and black races."

— Spoken at Springfield, Illinois on July 17th, 1858; from ABRAHAM LINCOLN: COMPLETE WORKS, 1894, Vol. 1, page 273


"See our present condition---the country engaged in war! Our White men cutting one another's throats! And then consider what we know to be the truth. But for your race among us there could not be war, although many men engaged on either side do not care for you one way or another.

"Why should the people of your race be colonized, and where? Why should they leave this country? This is, perhaps, the first question for proper consideration. You and we are different races. We have between us a broader difference than exists between almost any other two races. Whether it is right or wrong I need not discuss, but this physical difference is a great disadvantage to us both, as I think your race suffer very greatly, many of them by living among us, while ours suffer from your presence. In a word, we suffer on each side. If this be admitted, it affords a reason at least why we should be separated. It is better for both, therefore, to be separated."

— Spoken at the White House to a group of black community leaders, August 14th, 1862, from COLLECTED WORKS OF ABRAHAM LINCOLN, Vol 5, page 371


"I will say, then, that I AM NOT NOR HAVE EVER BEEN in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the black and white races---that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters
or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with White people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the White and black races which will ever FORBID the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together, there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I, as much as any other man, am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the White race."

— 4th Lincoln-Douglas debate, September 18th, 1858; COLLECTED WORKS Vol. 3, pp. 145-146

If the whole "declaring ahmadis non muslims" comes from Gandhi's ideas, why haven't ahmadis been declared non-muslims in india?

seems to me that pakiland had adopted more of gandhis ideals..

like manto tells us

amhadis declared non-muslims: gandhi's fault
islamic terrorists blowing shit up: gandhi's fault

Re: # 36

Working with the oppressor is to go from town to town recruiting Soldiers like Gandhi did ... for which he earned the title Qaiser-e-Hind.

"The constant need to demean others"

How about calling black people subhuman for being black like Adolf Hitler's Indian Twin Gandhi BC did?



On What Gandhi wanted

The last week has been very busy. We have not had a moment's leisure.
We saw Mr. Theodore Morison of Aligarh and the well-known Mr. Stead of
the Review of Reviews. Mr. Stead has boldly come out to give us all
the help he can. He was therefore requested to write to the same Boer
leaders that they should not consider Indians as being on the same
level as Kaffirs

Indian Opinion, 15-12-1906, CWOMG Vol. 6, pg 183



private delete

October 4, 2005

On What Gandhi wanted (3)

CLASSIFICATION OF ASIATICS WITH NATIVES

The cell was situated in the Native quarters and we were housed in one
that was labeled 'For Coloured Debtors'. It was this experience for
which we were perhaps all unprepared. We had fondly imagined that we
would have suitable quarters apart from the Natives. As it was,
perhaps, just as well that we were classed with Natives. We would now
be able to study the life of Native prisoners, their customs and
manners. ...Degradation underlay the classing of Indians with natives.
The Asiatic Act seemed to me to be the summit of our degradation. It
did appear to me, as I think it would appear to any unprejudiced
reader, that it would have been simple humanity if we were given
special quarters. ...the Governor of the gaol tried to make us as
comfortable as he could...But he was powerless to accommodate us
beyond the horrible din and the yells of the Native prisoners
throughout the day and partly at night also. Many of the native
prisoners are only one degree removed from the animal and often
created rows and fought amongst themselves in their cells.

Indian Opinion 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 120


Apart from whether or not this implies degradation, I must say it is
rather dangerous. Kaffirs are as a rule uncivilized -- the convicts
even more so. They are troublesome, very dirty, and live almost like
animals. Each ward contains nearly 50 to 60 of them. They often
started rows and fought among themselves. The reader can easily
imagine the plight of the poor Indian thrown into such company

Indian Opinion, 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 135



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October 4, 2005

On What Gandhi wanted (2)

INDIANS ON PAR WITH KAFFIRS

There, our garments were stamped with the letter 'N', which meant that
we were being classed with the Natives. We were all prepared for
hardships, but not quite for this experience. We could understand not
being classed with the whites, but to be placed on the same level with
the Natives seemed too much to put up with. I then felt that Indians
had launched on passive resistance too soon. Here was further proof
that the obnoxious law was intended to emasculate the Indians.

It was, however, as well that we were classified with the Natives. It
was a welcome opportunity to study the treatment meted out to the
Natives, their conditions [of life in the gaol] and their habits.
...We were given a separate ward because we were sentenced to simple
imprisonment; otherwise we would have been in the same ward [with the
Kaffirs]. Indians sentenced to hard labour are in fact kept with the
Kaffirs.

Apart from whether or not this implies degradation, I must say it is
rather dangerous. Kaffirs are as a rule uncivilized -- the convicts
even more so. They are troublesome, very dirty, and live almost like
animals. Each ward contains nearly 50 to 60 of them. They often
started rows and fought among themselves. The reader can easily
imagine the plight of the poor Indian thrown into such company

Indian Opinion, 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 135



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October 4, 2005

On What Gandhi wanted (1)

I have, though, resolved in my mind on an agitation to ensure that
Indian prisoners are not lodged with Kaffirs or others. When I arrived
at the place, there were about 15 Indian prisoners. Except for three,
all of them were satyagrahis. The three were charged with other
offences. These prisoners were generally lodged with kaffirs. When I
reached there, the chief warder issued an order that all of us should
be lodged in a separate room. I observed with regret that some Indians
were happy to sleep in the same room as the Kaffirs, the reason being
that they hoped there for a secret supply of tobacco, etc. This is a
matter of shame to us. We may entertain no aversion to the Kaffirs,
but we cannot ignore the fact that there is no common ground between
them and us in the daily affairs of life. Moreover, those who wish to
sleep in the same room have ulterior motives for doing so.
Obviously, we ought to abandon such notions if we want to make progress.


Indian Opinion, 6-1-1909, CWOMG Vol. 9, pg 149



On What Gandhi wanted (9)



Gandhi's disdain for black people continues:

It is one thing to register Natives who would not work, and whom it is
very difficult to find out if they absent themselves, but it is
another thing and most insulting to expect decent, hard-working, and
respectable Indians, whose only fault is that they work too much, to
have themselves registered

What is a Coolie, Indian Opinion 2151904, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 193

CWOMG: Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi


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On What Gandhi wanted (8)



The whole affair is as much a disgrace to the Indian community as it
is to the British Empire. The British rulers take us to be so lowly
and ignorant that they assume that, like the Kaffirs who can be
pleased with toys and pins, we can also be fobbed off with trinkets

Indian Opinion, 29-2-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 105

CWOMG: Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi


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On What Gandhi wanted (7)


More on SEPARATE AND UNEQUAL theory of Gandhiji...

His Excellency has, moreover, justified the definition of 'coloured
person' on the ground that it is a legacy from the old Government. But
British Indians object to the definition for that very reason. Their
position is this. The ordinances will not in practice apply to them.
The Boer Government insulted the Indians by classing them with the
Kaffirs. Now there is no occasion to perpetuate a needless insult

Indians in the O.R.C, Indian Opinion, 6-1-1906, CWOMG, Vol. 5, pg 177-178

Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi: CWOMG


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On What Gandhi wanted (6)


More on SEPARATE AND UNEQUAL theory of Gandhiji...

His Excellency has, moreover, justified the definition of 'coloured
person' on the ground that it is a legacy from the old Government. But
British Indians object to the definition for that very reason. Their
position is this. The ordinances will not in practice apply to them.
The Boer Government insulted the Indians by classing them with the
Kaffirs. Now there is no occasion to perpetuate a needless insult

Indians in the O.R.C, Indian Opinion, 6-1-1906, CWOMG, Vol. 5, pg 177-178

Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi: CWOMG


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On What Gandhi wanted (5)



It reduces British Indians to a status lower than that of the
aboriginal races of South Africa and the Coloured people.

Indian Opinion 15-9-1906, CWOMG Vol. 5, pg 419-423

On What Gandhi wanted (14)

On Minority White rule in South Africa:

We, therefore, have no hesitation in agreeing with the view that in
the long run assisted Asiatic immigration into the Transvaal would be
disastrous to the white settlement. People will gradually accommodate
themselves to relying upon Asiatic labour, and any White immigration
of the special class required in the Transvaal on a large scale will
be practically impossible. It would be equally unfair to the Natives
of the soil. It is all very well to say that they would not work, and
that, if the Asiatics were introduced, that would be a stimulus to
work; but human nature is the same everywhere, and once Asiatic labour
is resorted to, there would not be a sustained effort to induce the
Natives to work under what would otherwise be, after all, gentle
compulsion. There would be then less talk about taxing the Natives and
so forth. Natives themselves, used as they are to a very simple mode
of life, will always be able to command enough wages to meet their
wants; and the result will be putting back their progress for an
indefinite length of time. We have used the words 'gentle compulsion'
in the best sense of the term; we mean compulsion of the same kind
that a parent exercises over children


Indian Opinion, 9-7-1903, CWOMG Vol. 3, pg 359-360

CWOMG: COLLECTED WORKS OF MAHATMA GANDHI.

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On What Gandhi wanted (13)


On Minority White rule in South Africa:

We, therefore, have no hesitation in agreeing with the view that in
the long run assisted Asiatic immigration into the Transvaal would be
disastrous to the white settlement. People will gradually accommodate
themselves to relying upon Asiatic labour, and any White immigration
of the special class required in the Transvaal on a large scale will
be practically impossible. It would be equally unfair to the Natives
of the soil. It is all very well to say that they would not work, and
that, if the Asiatics were introduced, that would be a stimulus to
work; but human nature is the same everywhere, and once Asiatic labour
is resorted to, there would not be a sustained effort to induce the
Natives to work under what would otherwise be, after all, gentle
compulsion. There would be then less talk about taxing the Natives and
so forth. Natives themselves, used as they are to a very simple mode
of life, will always be able to command enough wages to meet their
wants; and the result will be putting back their progress for an
indefinite length of time. We have used the words 'gentle compulsion'
in the best sense of the term; we mean compulsion of the same kind
that a parent exercises over children


For Beej who is apparently BLIND: Indian Opinion, 9-7-1903, CWOMG Vol.
3, pg 359-360

CWOMG: COLLECTED WORKS OF MAHATMA GANDHI.


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On What Gandhi wanted (12)



What the British Indians pray for is very little. They ask for no
political power. They admit the British race should be the dominant
race in South Africa. All they ask for is freedom for those that are
now settled and those that may be allowed to come in future to trade,
to move about, and to hold landed property without any hindrance save
the ordinary legal requirements

Petition to Natal Legislature, CWOMG, vol3, pg 330


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On What Gandhi wanted (11)


Ah... and they said Plessey Vs Ferguson was bad...

Well here is Gandhi with his theory of "Separate and Unequal"

...The petition dwells upon "the co-mingling of the Coloured and white
races". May we inform the members of the conference that, so far as
the British Indians are concerned, such a thing is practically
unknown? If there is one thing, which the Indian cherishes more than
any other, it is the purity of type. Why bring such a question into
the controversy at all?

The Transvaal Chambers and British Indians, Indian Opinion 24-12-03,
CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 89


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More on Gandhi's theory of "separate and unequal"

Why, of all places in Johannesburg, the Indian Location should be
chosen for dumping down all the Kaffirs of the town passes my
comprehension. ...Of course, under my suggestion, The Town Council
must withdraw the Kaffirs from the Location. About this mixing of
Kaffirs with the Indians, I must confess I feel most strongly

Indian Opinion, 10-4-04, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 130-131



Other Gandhian Statements that we need to consider...

'Sanghtan is a really sound movement. Every community is entitled,
indeed bound to organize itself as a seperate entity' : Mahatma Gandhi

(Young India January 6th 1927)


A translation of a Gujrati essay he wrote in 1922 for Niya Jawan

(1) I believe that if Hindu Society has been able to stand it is
because it is founded on the caste system.
(2) The seeds of swaraj are to be found in the caste system. Different
castes are like different sections of miliary division. Each division
is working for the good of the whole....

(3) A community which can create the caste system must be said to
possess unique power of organization.

(4) Caste has a ready made means for spreading primary education. Each
caste can take the responsibility for the education of the children of
the caste. Caste has a political basis. It can work as an electorate
for a representative body. Caste can perform judicial functions by
electing persons to act as judges to decide disputes among members of
the same caste. With castes it is easy to raise a defense force by
requiring each caste to raise a brigade.

(5) I believe that interdining or intermarriage are not necessary for
promoting national unity. That dining together creates friendship is
contrary to experience. If this was true there would have been no war
in Europe.... Taking food is as dirty an act as answering the call of
nature. The only difference is that after answering call of nature we
get peace while after eating food we get discomfort. Just as we
perform the act of answering the call of nature in seclusion so also
the act of taking food must also be done in seclusion.

(6) In India children of brothers do not intermarry. Do they cease to
love because they do not intermarry? Among the Vaishnavas many women
are so orthodox that they will not eat with members of the family nor
will they drink water from a common water pot. Have they no love? The
caste system cannot be said to be bad because it does not allow
interdining or intermarriage between different castes.

(7) Caste is another name for control. Caste puts a limit on
enjoyment. Caste does not allow a person to transgress caste limits in
pursuit of his enjoyment. That is the meaning of such caste
restrictions as interdining and intermarriage.

(8) To destroy caste system and adopt Western European social system
means that Hindus must give up the principle of hereditary occupation
which is the soul of the caste system. Hereditary principle is an
eternal principle. To change it is to create disorder. I have no use
for a Brahmin if I cannot call him a Brahmin for my life. It will be a
chaos if every day a Brahmin is to be changed into a Shudra and a
Shudra is to be changed into a Brahmin.

(9) The caste system is a natural order of society. In India it has
been given a religious coating. Other countries not having understood
the utility of the caste system, it existed only in a loose condition
and consequently those countries have not derived from caste system
the same degree of advantage which India has derived. These being my
views I am opposed to all those who are out to destroy the caste
system.

Re: # 33

[Get rid of it, you will not face problem... ]

Nkg, you are talking to the progeny of the Jinnah - the man who always preferred to work WITH the oppressor!

[I don't like arguing with third rate people who have probably not stepped out of their office space and no even less of history]

The constant need to demean others - a very Jinnah-like characteristic and a sign of deep-rooted insecurity and fear!

Guru,

Prepare for a stinging one... here it comes... chmaaat!


http://www.rediff.com/news/2005/jun/13spec1.htm

June 13, 2005

As the country is plunged into an acrimonious debate on Mohammad Ali Jinnah's secular credentials, a trust in Mumbai named after the founder of Pakistan is busy helping poor students of all creeds.

Welcome to the Jinnah Hall Trust.

Sitting in his small cubicle at The People's Jinnah Hall at Grant Road in south Mumbai, Nayan Yagnik, a trustee of the Jinnah Hall Trust, does not want to comment on whether Bharatiya Janata Party chief Lal Kishenchand Advani was right when he praised Jinnah's secular credentials recently in Pakistan. He does not comment either on the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh's attack on Advani. He has no views on the RSS' Akhand Bharat Theory -- a line of thinking that seeks to reverse bloody Partition.

Yagnik is thinking of the days ahead. He has his job cut out. A new educational year is staring him in the face. What it means for him is a flood of applications for scholarships. The applications will have to be screened and deserving students would have to be awarded assistance. Deserving students, mind you -- not deserving Hindu students, not deserving Muslim students, not deserving Christian students.

Complete Coverage: The BJP Crisis

The Jinnah Hall Trust, as the name suggests, also controls a community hall that is let out for cultural and family functions for a small price. It is let out to political parties too and parties of all hues, including the Shiv Sena and BJP, have used the hall.

Though the trust calls it The People's Jinnah Hall, political parties refer to it as just The People's Hall on the invitation cards.

Attempts were made by the Sena and BJP to pressure trustees to rename the trust. Yagnik, a Gujarati, and other trustees, none of them a Muslim, refused.

How this hall got its name is an interesting story.

Also see: Advani's popularity soars in Pak

It was 1918. Lord Willingdon was relinquishing the governorship of Bombay province and a meeting was convened to appreciate his services. Jinnah did not approve of the idea and decided to organise a protest. He along with his wife Ratanbai and a large number of protestors were forceably removed by the police.

The episode made Jinnah a hero and within a few days his admirers, mostly Congress workers, contributed Rs 30,000 in his honour.

The amount was presented to him at a felicitation ceremony at a small hall at Congress House. However, Jinnah, one of the most successful barristers in the city, returned the money.

The Congressmen then named the hall after him and set up a trust with the Rs 30,000. It was called the Jinnah Hall Trust.


Yagnik says it is a small trust with annual earnings of less than Rs 100,000. Nobody from Jinnah's family has ever been involved in the trust though Nusli Wadia, Jinnah's grandson and chairman of the Bombay Dyeing [Get Quote] group, lives in Mumbai.

"Sometime ago the Pakistan government had wanted to set up their temporary visa office here, but we said no. We don't want to make it a diplomatic or political issue," Yagnik said.

Ahamedi or Muhammedi, the problem lies with the uncivilised concept of prophet,revealition... Get rid of it, you will not face problem...

Re: # 31

Masadi,

Why are you so against Mr Jinnah?

Manto the charlatan writes "Now BBC is not stupid because it calls me of all people to speak on behalf of the Lawyers' Movement...."

They certainly arent stupid but you are if you think that they call you because of your smarts or your participation in the movement. They call you because you tell them what they want their viewers to hear, end of story. Go contratian and you'll see how fast they drop you. You are a bloody nobody in intellect and most definately in morals, your knowledge is based on copy pastes and absolutely no arguments to counter your opponents. You are the leader of the "champions of diarrohea" (your words) and a "third rate" human being (if human at all, like maj you might even be a blood sucking vampire)....

Re: # 27:

"Unlike Gandhi's sojourn in Aga Khan's palace... Jinnah was on one occasion beaten up and injured by the police ... but he stood his ground and the citizens of Bombay built and dedicated a hall to him called "People's Jinnah Hall" ... which is still there in Bombay."

Just as Bombay does not exist except in few anglophile the coconut, this hall you say does not exist on Lamington Road.
It is a short road one can walk up & down in 20 minutes.

The dead stinking dog in the well is the dhimmification & coconutization of Indians on both sides of Wagha. BA Hons & Bar at Law babus are the culprits.

Re: # 27

YLH,

Great to know taht you were at the march of the loosers, teh hoodwinked and the stupid lot.

The self important fools who think that restoring a few corrupt judges is more important than fighting crime in teh streets of karachi.

"Ahmadis were also very much Muslim when the Government of Pakistan laid claim to Qadian as a Muslim holy place in 1947 as a counterweight to Sikh claims to their holy sites in Pakistan"
//////////

Thanks for telling the truth. The ahmadis were political pawns right at teh formation of pakistan, used by none other than jinnah.

So what is teh harm in bhutto using them as political pawn and making them non-muslims.

Ahmadi issue is only a symptom of much parger malice.

There is a dead dog in the well, that si why teh water is stinking. No cosmetic like a constitution can help teh situation.

Remove those photos, remove TNT

I don't like arguing with third rate people who have probably not stepped out of their office space and no even less of history... but facts must be stated.

Jinnah participated in a fair share of marches during his time in the Congress Party and the Home Rule League and also as an independent... most famous one of which was the protest against Simon Commission which had no Indian ..

Unlike Gandhi's sojourn in Aga Khan's palace... Jinnah was on one occasion beaten up and injured by the police ... but he stood his ground and the citizens of Bombay built and dedicated a hall to him called "People's Jinnah Hall" ... which is still there in Bombay. He was never opposed to protest marches ... but he was against Mahatmafying them.

Also as Jinnah's true follower and a Pakistani, I participated in the Long March on Friday... after I spoke to BBC live at 12 noon. Now BBC is not stupid because it calls me of all people to speak on behalf of the Lawyers' Movement.

Now I am done talking to champions of diahorrea on chowk and I bid you farewell.

-YLH

PS: Great article. Just shows that what I have been saying is now gaining acceptance because it is the truth.

SR,

The chowk article is gone.

But the more pathetic part is that the so called educated pakistanis that man the chowk did nothing to advance their so called moral outrage about teh ahmadi situation. For a long time I have argued that they should write an article on chowk at teh birth anniversary of abdus salam to honour him.

Not even a single pakistani on chowk supported this idea.

So much for doing some even symbolic action for a cause that the pakis believe in, or so they say to teh world.

Chowk Islamist hacks into the Chowk server

ISLAMABAD: June 17.

It has been reported by our correspondant in Palo Alto, California, that a renown Chowk Islamist hacker has managed to worm his way around the 'Fire Walls' of the Chowk main server and deleted the Pro-Ahmedi kafir propaganda.

Neither the Islamists hacker (to be unnamed) nor Chowk Staff were available for comment.

Re: 23

In that case should not ordinary folks of Pakistan join hands across sectarian/racial/ethnic divides to fight for their common rights rather than divide themselves.

Regards

Majumdar Sahib,

It is all ego war and " masti " of Ahmadi Pirs and Non Ahmadi Pirs of Pakistan

Owners of Ahmadiyya Charity and Ahmadi land lords are not giving respect, rights or basic human dignity to ordinary Ahmadi Mureeds like me .

Bigger Land lords or bigger Pirs of Pakistan are not giving due share or rights to ordinary Ahmadi or Sunni Mureeds of God gifted territory known as Pakistan..

Rich Ahmadies can either fly to Europe or socialize and drink among elite of Islamabad , Lahore and Karachi..or London ,,as money and wealth has no religion and no frontiers

When it comes to oppression and blood sucking then Ahmadi Pirs and Sunni Pirs of Pakistan become one.

Mureed sahib,

This article is about the rights of people belonging to the Ahmedi faith not about the misdeeds (alleged or real) of the Ahmedi Church (if I can call it that).

Regards

If we go to Sind, then we observe extremely vicious treatment ,which " harees " , Peasants or tenants receive at the " Jagirs ", God gifted Lands and territories of Muslim Pirs etc.

Same 2 dollar daily wage slave kind of treatment we observe at the lands of Mirzas and chosen Clergymen of Ahmadiyya Jamaat.

Ahmadiyya Muslim Jamaat is registered as a non profit charity and first requirment of law is that Charity will not take part in politics.

2nd important requirment is that the Chief executive , The Khalifa will be elected by board of governors instead of Allah.

3rd and the most important requirment is that all financial activities will have to be audited and all members of the Charity and all tax paying citizens of that country will receive detailed information about money received and expenditures of that charity.

Such audit should take place every year and it is legal responsibility of such charity to publish audit report and distribute among tax payers of that country.

#19 by BJ2

Beej Bhai, you are right, countless lawyers with the same ideas. The thing is I've had countless debates with Yasser and I not only know his ideas but also the style he interacts in. This one has Yasser stamped all over it.

#18 Harish

Yaar, Yasser does not have a copyright to those ideas! There are countless lawyers out there who have the same ideas.

The difference perhaps is that...

THOSE countless lawyers are actually marching!

Not like the Jinnah!

#10 by BJ2

VRV and Arjun, I do not believe that Manto wrote this piece because he always spells MAJ’s first name as “Mahomed�. There are a couple of other points as well – which I explained on the UP.

Beej Bhai, why would anyone leave a clear giveaway when they do not want to be identified as the author in the first place? The ideas expressed in the write up are unmistakably Yasser's.

...ki fasaana ban gayee hai
teri baat
chalte chalte...

Bhatti sahib and izuber,

The contents of the article need to be discussed on own merit - irrespective of the identity of whoever wrote this piece.

The atmosphere of persecution in Pakistan is nobody's figment of imagination - it is very real! So is the Hudood ordinance and the persecutions under the apostasy laws.

Get real, yaar! Although I lack the expertise to say whether that spirit of persecution is intrinsic to the spirit of Islam or merely a flawed implementation, you guys need to focus more on the problem than beating up on the messenger - whoever it be!

Kaun kehta hai aisa?!

Ye jamaana keh rahaa hai!!

The author has raised important questions pertaining to freedom of faith and right to equal treatment irrespective of caste, creed and colour. It is Ahmedis in Pakistan, could be Muslims in the West, Tibetans in China and so on. It would be worthwhile if people could focus on that rather than speculate on the identity of the author or his motives for remaining anonymous.

Regards

Revision to the Author's introduction
(The writer is a lawyer and a participant in the lawyer's movement. He has asked to keep his identity secret for the fear of persecution.)

Correction:(The writer is a liar and a participant in the lawyer's movement. He has asked to keep his identity secret because he/she lacks the spine.)

[Chowk Editors, where are you?]

Ras sahib, in the same old place!

Gushalkhane meiN!

Where is the article?

"Page Not Found" is all that I found.

Chowk Editors, where are you?

Ras

Today, 4 Shia nimazis were murdered by a hand grenade thrown into a Shia mosque in Dera Ismail Khan. The debate should move away from civil rights to plain civility. When there are animals running amok in the country, there is little hope for human rights.

VRV and Arjun, I do not believe that Manto wrote this piece because he always spells MAJ’s first name as “Mahomed�. There are a couple of other points as well – which I explained on the UP.

And believe it, there are plenty of lawyers who are out there risking their necks out in this movement. However, Manto being a REAL follower of MAJ, is quite unlikely to be in that august group!

Jinnah, after all, had always a highly amicable relationship with those in power!

These lawyers seem to be made from a different cloth! I applaud them, if not necessarily their leaders.

Jang Yaar, for a kafir, you make a lot of sense. I once went to visit my uncle in Chitral. He worked for the power authority. We went to pray Jumma nimaz in town, and the Mullah was going on and on about how bad Mirzaees are (this was early 80s – Soviets were in Afghanistan) and what should be done to them. I asked a fellow next to me, are there any Mirzaees in Chitral, and he said, not in Chitral but there are plenty in Punjab and Afghanistan.

Jang Yaar, for a kafir, you make a lot of sense. I once went to visit my uncle in Chitral. He worked for the power authority. We went to pray Jumma nimaz in town, and the Mullah was going on and on about how bad Mirzaees are (this was early 80s – Soviets were in Afghanistan) and what should be done to them. I asked a fellow next to me, are there any Mirzaees in Chitral, and he said, not in Chitral but there are plenty in Punjab and Afghanistan.

yar i dont want to offend my ahmedi and other muslim friends, but something has been bothering me. someone asked why ahmedis insist on being muslims?

this is an interesting question, since i understand that denouncing islam as a religion is apostasy. induvidually, it may be somewhat ok. but if a new guy forms a reform movement for muslims, there is no way he can call it not islam. how will rest of the society respond to a large group "converting" out of islam? so therefore, the reformer must call it islam out of necessity. the choice is not to have any reform movement.

so to me it sounds like a catch-22 kinda situation. if someone comes up with reformist ideas appealing to a sizable number of muslims, what would be the right thing to do? if you call it islam, that would be sullying the brand. otherwise its a dangerous thing...but otoh you must listen to gods calling about the right thing to do and spread your message.

Re: # 1

The questions you raised are genuine and can be simplified as:

1. All Muslims should accept prophesized Jesus as a prophet.

2. Is belief in the Messiah and Mahdi sufficient for one to be considered a Muslim?

3. If a Muslim does not believe in the prophet hood of prophesized Jesus, is one considered a bad Muslim?

Indeed, the rest is just muddied water.

What is this majority rule nonsense? Majority of Baluch want to separate, and majority of Sindhis would like to send all the non-Sindhi back home. Majority of Punjabis think that the rest of the country is there to be subservient to them. So think before opening making grand claims of democracy rules. Majority of Pakistani don’t give two damns about who the last prophet or the last goddess is, it is only those who have nothing else going for them (usually unemployed, uneducated, mal nourished, insecure idiots) and they pick up fights in the name of dead people. They are led by bastard Mullahs who use these idiots to earn a living through collecting funds to spread their filth. It’s always thugs from Jamat Harami.

I don't think Yaseer is the writer of this piece.

Yasser Latif Hamdani as Chowk is like Salman Rushdie wearing a wig.

Civil Rights, yes but religious rights, yes as well BUT reinventing Islam, prolly NO.

Sorry Yasser, u need to convince ur fellow compatriots on that. If u believe in democracy which is 'rule by majority' then u have to abide by that rule.

P.S: If u cant put ur name fearing persecution here how can we belive that u r actually 'participating' in the lawyers' movement?

Fucking chickens.....

Article without disclosing the name because of fear of persecution - my foot. If you are such a chicken then you probably deserve that. Those who do not have the courage to stand for their cause and allow others to persecute deserve that.

I think the thing missing in Ahmadis is lack of character because courage makes a bloody big part of character.

Bloody morons... Talking about freedom of expression and afraid of putting their ass on line for the sake of it. Hypocrates of first order......

The persecution of Ahmadis even under the present mangled constitution is patently unconstitutional.


Manto..for someone who claims to be a lawyer, you don't know much do you?

It's constitutional if it's in the constitution. period..end of story..

regardless of what jinnah said in his aug 11th speech at godforsakenabad, discrimination against amhadis is part of the paki constitution..

the fact that you're afraid to reveal your name is proof of that..

forget about jinnah..he's dead..the reality is that you live in a country that killed hundreds of thousands of bengali muslims and didn't prosecute a single person..not one..and these weren't ahmadis either..

Dear Chowk,

there has never been contest about Qadiyanis being Pakistanis. Indeed they should enjoy the same lack of basic civil rights as any other Pakistani does.

I feel that the overwhelming argument on this issue has been whether:

1. Qadiyanis feel that all muslims should accept Mirza sahib as a prophet.

2. Is belief in the Mirza sufficient for one to be considered a muslim?

3. If a muslim does not believe in the prophethood of Mirza, is one considered a bad Muslim?

you know, these type of issues. The rest is just muddied water.