Local Liberal Dribble

Re: # 56
I don't know HP. It's pretty much an intellectual dead-end to dismiss the other end of the Islamic spectrum as populated by a bunch of lunatics with unresolved Freudian sexual issues. Even if you oppose them on every single issue, where is this approach going to get you? That's probably why the self-termed civil society of Pakistan is always left on the sidelines: because it never bothers to participate in Islamic tradition and has isolated itself from it to the point where it's almost indistinguishable from disengaged Westerners.

The reason why the "liberal dribble" as Mr. Paracha terms is so ineffectual is not because it's useless to argue with extremists because they're crazy but because most of what passes as liberal criticism of extremism is usually not presented from within Islamic tradition, it's just a hotch-potch derived from Martin Lings' biography of Muhammad or Karen Armstrong's latest or something like that. It's intellectually lightweight stuff. I guess a pretty good metaphor for the whole thing is all the students who get their Islamic learning from studying for the Cambridge O-Level Islamiat exam. The Brits must really be laughing at what we've become.

#55 Posted by Zyxius
“It simply repeated the dreadful old act of a "moderate Muslim" soft-feathering a hardliner with counter quotes from the Hadith and certain worn out clichés about social and parental responsibilities." –NFP

“So in your view....the answer must be offensive to Islam and observant Muslims in order to qualify as an answer.� - Zyxius

Sounds like your own views force to you believe that any answer contradicting the mullah argument is offensive. Nadeem is rightfully suggesting that instead of the clichés pulled out of the same narrative or source that mullah is using to promote jihadi nonsense, is not going to work. The answers to the mullah rhetoric that mullah justifies from the Quran and Hadith are in logic and rational thinking.

Instead of playing on the mullah turf, show the people what the reality is and win argument there. Simply put, Nadeem’s message is very clear. IF you are going to play on a pitch tailor-made by mullah, using his ball and bat, you are going to lose to mullah. The best course is to fight what mullah preaches with the facts right out of this world and not from some imaginary make believe world.

"Also, I think it's time we start addressing irrationally-charged matters like religious fanaticism as a psychological issue rather than an intellectual or an ideological one." –NFP

“Its a good thing nobody gives a **** what you think Piracha. In your words here you are saying that the views that you are disagreeing with do not even qualify as legitimate views and those people are mentally ill. Therefore you are likely against any form of dialogue with insane people and your only solution would be violence. Its a good thing that you're only a loser writer and have no say in any affairs of importance.� - Zyxius

You clearly again fail to see the point NFP is making. It is not what he is disagreeing with as you put it, it is what the religious fanatics are saying. There are 100s of examples of irrational thoughts promoted by the mullah. How long can you rationally show what the mullah propagates is crazy? You got the point that any dialog with the insane is insane in itself. Unfortunately, people will always climb on the supposedly cognitive rope and the less rational will quickly jump to blaming other people for the disasters of their own making. The fanatics really need treatment and not lecture because the experience has proven that no amount of rational arguments will cure their insanity.

“You're damned lucky that civil society in Pakistan is totally bhay-ghayrat and that your twisted views are widely held in these circles.�

This is unfortunate! You quickly fall in to the insane category when you call the civil society in Pakistan bhay-ghayrat. If you believe in what you preach is rational then why do you need a gahiratmand society to defend you? The force of your argument should bring you victory. Sounds like you are supporting that any one opposing the mullah in Pakistan should be hanged.

I got to say NFP is so right in classifying this attitude psychological!

Piracha,

You are a fanatic who sugar coats his words to make it sound as if he's the one who's the true moderate.

"It offered nothing new (or "offensive") as answers. It simply repeated the dreadful old act of a "moderate Muslim" soft-feathering a hardliner with counter quotes from the Hadith and certain worn out clichés about social and parental responsibilities."

So in your view....the answer must be offensive to Islam and observant Muslims in order to qualify as an answer. Anyone who does not take your totally confrontational and arrogant approach is dismissed by you as a "moderate"....well at least you admit that you're an extremist.

"Also, I think it's time we start addressing irrationally-charged matters like religious fanaticism as a psychological issue rather than an intellectual or an ideological one."

Its a good thing nobody gives a **** what you think Piracha. In your words here you are saying that the views that you are disagreeing with do not even qualify as legitimate views and those people are mentally ill. Therefore you are likely against any form of dialogue with insane people and your only solution would be violence. Its a good thing that you're only a loser writer and have no say in any affairs of importance.

"And was Fawad really cured when he went into the mosque and deliver the azaan in a baseball cap?"

So you come out of your shell......it is clear that you believe that people who have deeply held religious beliefs are inferior to you at some level, but to go to the extent of viewing those other people as insane is the very definition of intolerance. You're damned lucky that civil society in Pakistan is totally bhay-ghayrat and that your twisted views are widely held in these circles.

May I ask...will you be volunteering yourself for these proposed military operations against these insane people whom you disagree with?

Mad Sad I,

"A foolishly irrelevant and meaningless question. Barcuh Goldstein a Jew killed Palestinian Muslims from behind their back as they knelt in prayer at the masjid, the US new crusader forces routinely bomb mosques and kill innocents, the Hindu Indian Army entered the Golden Temple to kill people there, and the list goes on and on......now go F yourself"

Let's count the deaths in last decade. Do you see your religion in the mirror with 100% tag on its forehead.

Who was the comanding officer in 1984. Gen Brar, a Sikh! Did they enter the Golden temple to kill the people or flush out heavily armed terrorists?

Does US bomb mosques only or they are collateral damage?

Why Baruch Goldstein did that? Because since 1986 Palestenians killed hundreds of innnocent Jews. He did it when Jews had been suffering for a decade or more.

==================
http://www.rediff.com/news/2004/jun/03inter.htm
ht tp://www.rediff.com/news/2004/jun/04inter1.htm
Twenty years later, how do you look back on Operation Bluestar?

I look back in sorrow that it had to happen.

Apparently, the government had no other recourse. The events in Punjab had reached a complete breakdown.

The Sikh militants were in total control of the state machinery. There was a strong feeling that Khalistan was going to be established at any time. [Jarnail Singh] Bhindranwale was being seen as a prophet; he was making very strong speeches against [the then prime minister] Indira Gandhi and non-Sikhs; and trying to send a message across to the rural areas that the Sikhs are being given second-grade treatment and that it is high time we formed our own independent state of Khalistan. There was a strong possibility of Pakistan helping them and I think there was the possibility of a Bangladesh being repeated.

I can't comment on the inside of politics, but I assume that after taking everything into consideration, the prime minister and the government decided this was the only course of action left if we were to keep this country together, to prevent its fragmentation, to prevent Khalistan. And having seen reports of about 2,000 militants inside [Amritsar's Golden Temple] with any number of machine guns, different types of weapons, it was clearly beyond the capabilities of the police force to flush out the militants from the Golden Temple; the task had to be entrusted to the Army.

As a soldier, if I am given an order, I obey it and 20 years later, all I can say is I wish the situation had never risen that such an order had to be passed. And God forbid we have to do it again.

How did you motivate the soldiers?

No soldier enjoys or cherishes taking up arms against his fellow citizens. But they also know that there are many situations, be it in Nagaland, Mizoram, Assam, Tamil Nadu, Punjab or Kashmir, where the Army has to be called in. When the Army is called in, we don't think about of religion, caste, creed, ethnicity; we are sworn to the Constitution of India, our primary role is to safeguard the national security of the country and we have to act on orders to do so.

Why did the army go in just after Guru Arjan's martyrdom day, when the number of devotees is much higher?

That was a coincidence. You must try and understand that perhaps the government had just about three or four days to carry out the operation. We had some sort of information that Khalistan was going to be declared any moment. You try and figure out that one fine day, Bhindranwale declares Khalistan and hoists the Khalistan flag...

The Khalistani currency had already been distributed; Pakistan was pumping in money, they wanted a strong part of India, which is Punjab, to secede and for India to disintegrate.

Can you imagine if one fine day Khalistan has been declared, what would have happened? Pakistan would have recognised Khalistan and crossed the borders to support Khalistan, like we did in Bangladesh. The Punjab police might have crossed over to support Bhindranwale...

Did you fear that happening?

Of course! After all, emotions then were very high. I am not saying that the entire Punjab police would have crossed over, but a large section might have. If there could be desertions in the army, then the police, who were in Punjab, who were privy to Bhindranwale's speeches, might have [also deserted]; they were also emotionally charged by what was happening.

Moreover, Hindus and non-Sikhs were leaving Punjab while Sikhs in Delhi and Haryana were moving to Punjab, causing further fear and apprehension. The law and order situation in such a case would have been beyond the police force and difficult for the Army.

Would we have been on the border to stop Pakistan? Would we have been working on maintaining law and order with huge migrations underway? Would we be disarming the police and militia for fear that they might go over to the other side?

It would have been a task well beyond the army. So whether we could have waited a few days is something the politicians can best answer. But the impression given to us was that we had very little time.

Lieutenant General (retired) Kuldip Singh Brar commanded Operation Bluestar 20 years ago, when the Indian Army entered the Golden Temple to remove the terrorists who had turned the Sikhs' holiest shrine into a private bunker. It was one of the Indian Army's most difficult operations, and undoubtedly the most controversial.

In the second part of a four-part interview with Deputy Managing Editor Amberish K Diwanji, General Brar looks back at the compulsions that forced him to send his men into the Temple:

Part I: 'Pakistan would have recognised Khalistan and crossed the borders'

Were you given a timeframe within which to act?

The fastest possible. When I met my CO [commanding officer] Lieutenant General K Sundarji [then General Officer Commanding, Western Command; he later became Chief of Army Staff] at Chandimandir [in Chandigarh], he told me he would fly down in 48 hours to hear my first briefing. Time was at a premium.

So we moved all night and got our forces into Amritsar and then the Temple.

What about a siege to flush out the militants?

A siege is easily spoken of. A siege is only effective when you are able to make the people under siege unable to continue to stay under siege. That means they have no water, no food, no electricity, no ammunition and are forced to surrender or to capitulate.

But, in the Golden Temple, there is no shortage of water. There are any number of wells; besides there is the Sarovar [the Holy Lake on the premises of the Temple]. There are a number of generators. There is no shortage of food -- every day, thousands of devotees flock to the Temple bringing with them food and provisions, so there is enough food to feed a few hundreds of thousands of people for over a month [food is served free of cost to the devotees every day in the Golden Temple; this food is made from offerings by the devotees], and here we are talking of forcing the hand of a few thousands…

The other problem of a siege was that, once laid, word would have spread to the hinterland within 24 hours. Every villager in Punjab would be told the Golden Temple was under siege. In those days, every rumour or fact was exaggerated; such messages are sent out emotionally, thus surcharging the atmosphere. People would have picked up their swords or lances and hundreds of thousands would have converged on Amritsar and the Golden Temple and besieged the army that was besieging the Temple! We can't fire at these people, and we can't surrender, so what are we to do? We didn't want such a situation to arise.

After asking the militants to surrender [on June 5], we waited and waited. It soon became 8 o'clock, then 9 o'clock and was nearing 10 o'clock. We were worried. We had to finish the operation before dawn [around 5.30 am] for fear of mobs amassing around the Temple. The news would spread fast that we hadn't cleared out the militants, then we would be under siege. People must understand these things.

It is very easy to say to we could have laid siege, we could have postponed it for a day or two, or carried out the operation without the loss of life. It is only we, who were there at that time, who know what our limitations and needs were. Our soldiers went into what you would call a death trap. They had no cover, they were out in the open [when moving from the entrances to the various rooms and sections where the militants were hiding]; in contrast, the militants had barricaded every window and were heavily armed…

So ultimately you had to finish off the operation in 48 hours, because you feared Pakistan coming in?

That was the biggest fear. It had to be a surgical operation and one that caused the minimum damage with least loss of blood but it had to be as quick as possible because once word got around, there would have been a flood of people… like the Brahmaputra. When the Brahmaputra floods, there is nothing you can do. No amount of sandbags can stop the flood.

What about the innocent pilgrims inside?

We were to go in at 7 pm [on June 5]. Since afternoon, we used the public address system to keep asking those who were inside to surrender. We told them we don't want to come in, we pointed out that there were pilgrims inside, there were women and children inside, and we told the militants that if they want to fight it out, do so but for God's sake to at least send the pilgrims, the old, the young, out safely. But until 7 pm, nothing happened.

I asked the police if they could send emissaries inside to help get the innocent people out, but the police said that anyone sent inside would not come out again. They said the militants were no doubt keeping the pilgrims as a sort of trump card, believing their presence would stop the army from coming in. Eventually, about 100 sick and old people were let out, but not the rest. They told us the others were not being allowed to come out.

I feel sorry for the innocent people who died in the crossfire.

In the fight, you were dealing with a former superior, Major General [retired] Shahbeg Singh [a highly decorated army officer who, after being dismissed from service for financial irregularities, became a close accomplice of Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale].

Yes, and he knew something was up because the day before, I had walked around the Golden Temple in civilian clothes and seen the militants and the barricades. And he saw me taking my rounds so he knew something was up. We had gone into Bangladesh together.

Was he a formidable enemy?

He was a very seasoned soldier who won the Mahavir Chakra [India's second highest bravery award in war] in 1971, who had to leave the army for whatever reason. He was a highly emotional person and had joined with Bhindranwale. Perhaps he believed that with the pilgrims inside, the Indian Army would not come in but he never realised there is always a limit to how much any country can take.

How difficult was the operation?

It was in the middle of the night. One cannot see and one is out in the open and under fire from the militants holed up behind barricades. Plus I was constantly screaming at the men inside that come what may, they were not to fire in the direction of the Harmindar Sahib [the sanctum sanctorum where the Sikh holy book, the Guru Granth Sahib, is kept during the day] and that even if there was fire from that side they were not to return fire. Later, there were a couple of bullet holes in the Harmindar Sahib, which could have been the militants' fire or odd stray fire from the soldiers. Otherwise there was no damage to the Harmindar Sahib.

Even at the Akal Takht [seen above], there would have been no damage. Our soldiers tried to lob stun grenades [which release gas that momentarily stuns people without causing any collateral damage]. But the Akal Takht was completely sealed and there was no way to lob the stun grenades inside. And when our soldiers were crawling towards the Akal Takht for some commandos to get in, they were being mowed down by enemy fire. They were being killed by the dozen, it was a terrible sight.

As you know Bhindranwale had shifted to the first floor of the Akal Takht. How did the Sikhs allow that? It was against the religion's tenets. The Akal Takht is where the Guru Granth Sahib [the Sikh holy book] is kept at night after being taken from the Harmindar Sahib. No one is allowed to stay above the Guru Granth Sahib, but Bhindranwale and his immediate accomplices were living on the Akal Takht's first floor.

The members of the SGPC [the Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee which has managerial control of the Golden Temple and other gurdwaras in India] were living elsewhere in the Temple. They had long lost control of the situation and had no say in what was happening. The writ of Bhindrawale ran not just in the Golden Temple or in Amritsar but throughout Punjab.

Why were the tanks brought in?

Tanks were brought in late to illuminate the Akal Takht, so that the soldiers could see where they were going and to momentarily blind the militants in the glare of the lights. Those who have seen these huge halogen lights know these lights fuse in 20, 30 seconds, so the tanks had to keep going in and coming out. It was not an easy task at all.

Next: 'You are not acting against any religion but against a section of misguided people'

pappu writes ""followers of which religion kill followers of other religions at their place of worship?"

A foolishly irrelevant and meaningless question. Barcuh Goldstein a Jew killed Palestinian Muslims from behind their back as they knelt in prayer at the masjid, the US new crusader forces routinely bomb mosques and kill innocents, the Hindu Indian Army entered the Golden Temple to kill people there, and the list goes on and on......now go F yourself

Super Sized One,

Are you aware of what is happening in Indian Kashmir? Muslims are not willing to give even an inch of land for pilgrims. This kind proves every one that Pandits were kicked out. This also tells what would happen if Kashmir is given a choice to remain in Indian union or not. If they decide to secede then next step is Talibanization.

Indians cannot own any land in Kashmir but even the undies of kashmiri ladies are subsidized by the Indian state.

Why have these movies when ultimately what Pakistan wants is Kashmir on a platter? Don't you think Indians should not encourage this cultural exchange?

will some admin do something about this spammer pappu?? he doesnt know his arse from his elbow and has just ruined what was an interesting flow of discussion!

(psst pap .. me and u, lets take this outside!)

yes.. great flick shoaib mansoor! thumbs up!

Re: # 47

err... are all indian kashmiris tamil?

Middle Finger to God,
"As for Pakistanis in UK or US, they generally are as much model citizens as anybody else, but again due to the ways of deception of the thugs, they may appear less so."

Who are the London bombing suspects/convicts? Who are suspects/convicts in last airline bombing attempt in UK? Who trained the Ethiopians?

By twisting the truth and not looking at it objectively you are showing middle finger to the truth/god.

Middle finger to God,

"Pappu yaar maybe you misunderstood me. I merely wanted to tell you that one who belongs to the land that actually spawned a cult of "thugs", doesn't point fingers at others to point out their flaws to them. And you may wish to rewrite history here and deny that a certain sect called thugs existed for a long period of time, because you don't seem to like the way it might look on you, but a part of history it is, and it is not a concoction of the British. In fact it is as much a part of history as is the other beautiful ritual called satti, or the burning of live women, however you may wish to deny it now. These are all tricks of the deceivers, to try to rewrite history in a way more favorable to show the deceivers as paragons of virtue to the world. As for Pakistanis in UK or US, they generally are as much model citizens as anybody else, but again due to the ways of deception of the thugs, they may appear less so."

I do not read history because most of it is written to please who pays for it. I would take rather present reality and back track it. Which city is more safe Mumbai or Karachi? Where robberies at gun point happen more, Mumbai or Islamabad? With this reality of today, can we backtrack?
Thugs were the byproduct of anarchy of Muslim in particular Mughal rule. Constant plundering and looting of common folks made people very destitute. People follow the rulers.

In muslim period people became poor and foreign rulers became rich.

Sati was prevalent among Kshatriyas, esp among Rajputs. The reason is same, Islamic hoardes, who lusted women. There was recent verbal vulgur abuse of some Bollywood actress of Punjabi-Afghani descent by Pakistani cricketeers at IPL. can we backtrack that?

Meerpuri Muslim Britishers murdered Indian diplomat, Mr. Mhatre in 1983 way before any so called atrocities started in J&K. Can we backtrack that?

Isn't the majority in Pakistani Occupied J&K, Punjabi?

Re: # 36 little pappu says :"I do not know exactly what is an angel? But looking at Pakistanis and in comparison to them it seems so. Be it in UK or US, Indians seem to be model citizens. Thuggy is more British concoction so that Indians and the world do not start looking at the thuggery of British in Trillions."

Pappu yaar maybe you misunderstood me. I merely wanted to tell you that one who belongs to the land that actually spawned a cult of "thugs", doesn't point fingers at others to point out their flaws to them. And you may wish to rewrite history here and deny that a certain sect called thugs existed for a long period of time, because you don't seem to like the way it might look on you, but a part of history it is, and it is not a concoction of the British. In fact it is as much a part of history as is the other beautiful ritual called satti, or the burning of live women, however you may wish to deny it now. These are all tricks of the deceivers, to try to rewrite history in a way more favorable to show the deceivers as paragons of virtue to the world. As for Pakistanis in UK or US, they generally are as much model citizens as anybody else, but again due to the ways of deception of the thugs, they may appear less so.

Super Sized One.

Can you write in English or Hindi/Urdu? Can you tell what you have seen with your own eyes?

If you need to see model Indian citizens then you need to visit Universities, Bell Labs, IBM York Town Heights or Sandia Labs. Do not look for them on Jackson Heights. It tells more about you, if you do.

ermm.. objection i'm not punjabi!?
dont have a clue who those guys are who you're on about and dont want to know about such delinquents either! ''there were too many muslims there''? what the bloody...?

and it'd be better if you didn't get me started on emigration issues across the border, im originally from ajk and it is chock-full of indian-kashmiri immigrants... so really, dont get me started, i've seen things with my own eyes, despite that i'm still not naive enough to paint every indian the same, though i've seen very little evidence so far to contradict them otherwise. hmmmm...

about the media of the subcontinent, lets just say we've come a long way from the 60s and 70s, this is 2008 and the media means big money, there are far more tabloids in india than pakistan so you tell me.

Super Size Me,

"pappu yaar tang na kar! you're obviously indian and you're living with a one-dimensional stereotypical view of pakistanis, i would've welcomed some wholesome arguments re: this film, but you're far too immature for any of that, i'm not even gunna go there!

besides all our comments are clashing here, we're just counter attacking one another, nothing tangible and juicy about this discussion, then again thats always the case whenever i choose to lock horns with indians, as much as i try to understand their perspective, they show more ignorance, c'mon guys, where are all those intelligent 'superpowered' doctors and other elites i've heard so much about? or is that just another stereotype?
living n britain currently i havent seen any 'indian model citizens' which is a shame really, the only ones i've come across queer creatures.. really unsociable! pray tell me where i can find these indian model citizens?"

Ask yourself who started? Since Pakistani contribution to this world is one dimensional, i.e. terrorism in the name of religion, Indians and now even west has this view of terrorism means Pakistan and Pakistan means terrorism.

Common Namazi Abdul is not a problem. It's the rich Anglophile Ahmed lives in a delusion of fake grandeur. Indians do not show off like Pakistani, more of Punjabi trait, so it is hard for you to find model ciitzens of Indian origin to your tainted eyes. This super sized Ahmed sells his mother to the highest bidder to buy few bombs which he can throw at Indians.

Ask Nasruddin Shah why his father did not emigrate to Pakistan. Ask MJ Akbar why his father came back from Pakistan. MJ Akbar told on NPR after 9/11, his father came back because there were too many Muslims.

ras, i really liked your views on this movie, they are very similar to mine, although being an avid fan of ShoMan I was drooling at his magnificent, yummy script-writing throughout the film too! the reason we had a positive view towards it is we're pakistani muslims, we ARE that movie, we are in two groups, the sarmads or the mansoors... (or 3 inc. the hussain khans ... haha) all the dialogue the situations, they hit home, indians may have a couple of things in common, but they really cant understand or respect the pakistani perspective on this. every little detail in that film, i was like ''ditto''!

the words that mansoor uses '' we ruled india for like something-thousand years, we ruled spain for like.. we built the taj mahal'', those aren't shoman's own words he was mimicking a typical young pakistani frame of mind, haha.. my cousins used to use exactly them words! i laughed at that part it sounded so familar and there are many other things in that film that pakistani's can relate to.
i'm certainly not justifiying the scenarios in that film as being a good thing but he did do a good reflection, we as a nation are prone to cock-ups and we admit that openly, which pakistani doesnt? i just wish the indians here on chowk would be a little more open-minded about this film, oh and besides it is just a film at the end of the day, so hold your horses, maulana tahiri wont jump out of the screen and bite you, or even worse.. brainwash you.. bhagwaan forbid! :)

pappu yaar tang na kar! you're obviously indian and you're living with a one-dimensional stereotypical view of pakistanis, i would've welcomed some wholesome arguments re: this film, but you're far too immature for any of that, i'm not even gunna go there!

besides all our comments are clashing here, we're just counter attacking one another, nothing tangible and juicy about this discussion, then again thats always the case whenever i choose to lock horns with indians, as much as i try to understand their perspective, they show more ignorance, c'mon guys, where are all those intelligent 'superpowered' doctors and other elites i've heard so much about? or is that just another stereotype?
living n britain currently i havent seen any 'indian model citizens' which is a shame really, the only ones i've come across queer creatures.. really unsociable! pray tell me where i can find these indian model citizens?